AOFM #12 - Conspiracy 2: JFK Boogaloo (Part 2 of 2)

[ONKlub]

No, she testified that the shot rang out as the car "neared the first sign" i.e., the RL Thornton Freeway sign which was nearly in line with the west end of the TSBD (there were three signs).

And she told the FBI on Nov 24 that the shot happened "immediately" after the car drove past her.

It absolutely is logical to think the bullet simply ricocheted on down, and hit Tague.

Nobody fired from the underpass, lol.

[angryoldfatman]

@ONKlub,

FBI report 11/24/63 - "She observed President KENNEDY's car pass her point of observation and almost immediately thereafter heard three explosions spaced at intervals which she at first thought were firecrackers. It sounded as though these sounds were coming from the Triple Underpass, and looking in that direction after the first shot she saw something bounce from the roadway in front of the Presidential automobile and now presumes it was a bullet bouncing off the pavement." cont'd...

[angryoldfatman]

@ONKlub,

Deposition 03/22/64 - LIEBELER: Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this thing hit the street near the sign? BAKER: Yes, sir. LIEBELER: It appears to me from looking at [CE 354] you can in fact make out where the signs are located along the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. Now as you come down Elm Street past the place where you were standing going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little grassy... [con'td]

[angryoldfatman]

Will post rest of depo after work.

[ONKlub]

I already read it online.

LOL, it's like Bugliosi said - not only do conspiracy kooks not see the forest for the trees, they actually get up and examine the leaves on the trees with a microscope, looking for some small scintilla that they think will somehow point to a conspiracy, against all evidence to the contrary. Hilarious.

[angryoldfatman]

Apparently you didn't read shit, YOUR witness says the shots came from the underpass. You're doing same shit Buggie did w/ testimony, ignoring shit you don't want to hear from a particular witness and declaring the shit you do want from the same witness to be holy gospel. I'm blocking you until I get home from work.

& that microscope comment is hilarious considering the sheer size of Buggie's book and the time it took to write it, just to repeat the WC's case in more lurid terms.

[angryoldfatman]

"LOL, it's like Bugliosi said... conspiracy kooks etc."

Ah, I see how this game is played.

Make an assertion, when someone disproves the assertion with evidence, call the evidence "small scintillas" and insult the opponent as stupid, ignorant, crazy, or an evil liar.

Since you will apparently deny any evidence presented and insult me in the process, I've decided to keep you blocked. Also, get raped by Dobermans and die of dog AIDS.

[TheHughes56]

@angryoldfatman I agree, conspiracy is what took place and why when the evidence is clearly deciphered, one can see that secret government forces are at work. they are still at work today.If there wasn't a conspiracy, why are all the files locked up until 2029? Why hasn't there been a proper independent investigation into the matter? Even the HCSA Called for one after they concluded that the assassination was probably a conspiracy.

[TheHughes56]

@ONKlub Bugliosi is paid to conform to the governments view. He is after all a government prosecutor. He has no independant reason for wanting to get to the truth. Bugliosi only tries reiterate the Warren Report., and we know what complete hogwash that is. The whole point of the Warren Report is try and lead you away from the truth. Just to take one part where the Commision for some preposterous reason devotes time and space to Jack Ruby's mother's teeth. Where is the relevance?

[TheHughes56]

@ONKlub Why are people who believe in a conspiracy kooks? I believe that the opposite to be true and that anyone whe still believes the Warren Commision's view of events has to be Kooky themselves. Bugliosi would come to the conclusions he has, because he is a paid government toady. He has no interest in getting to the truth,that is for proper independant investigation.People like Jim Garrison, Jim Marrs, Mark Lane, David Lifton and robert Groden have all better and more believable theorys.

[angryoldfatman]

"No, she testified... the RL Thornton Freeway sign"

Find CE 354. Find the numeral 2. It's right at the Stemmons sign. That's where she marked the bullet ricochet that she testified she saw strike BEHIND the limo in her WC depo testimony. Just like I said the first time and that you denied. QED.

[ONKlub]

Actually, Tague was on the concrete island between Commerce and Main, not between Elm and Main where you have him.

Mrs Baker, bookkeeper at the TSBD, testified that she heard a shot and saw something hit the pavement behind the limo and kick up sparks. This was just as the limo passed her while she was standing in front of the building.

The probability is that a fragment of the bullet that hit the pavement then traveled on and struck the curb where Tague was standing.

[angryoldfatman]

@ONKlub,

Thanks, I corrected that mistake 2 years ago about Tague's position in the video description.

I'll look up Baker's testimony later when I get home from work.

[angryoldfatman]

@ONKlub,

Found Virgie Baker's testimony. Her earliest testimony (FBI interview 11/24/63) states that she heard shots coming from the direction of the triple underpass & that she heard no shots from the TSBD.

Her last testimony (deposition in 3/22/64) states she heard the shots from the railroad tracks back from the GK.

She also testified that she saw the ricochet when the limo passed the Simmons Freeway sign, not the very front of the TSBD.

[sudaev]

No, actually the Zapruder film shows that LHO had 8 seconds to get off three shots. And there have been people who have equaled or beaten LHO's time.  This is documented. Also, it has been posited that he may have used the iron sights. The head shot was only at about 88 yards.

[angryoldfatman]

"the Zapruder film shows that LHO had 8 seconds to get off three shots."

It shows no such thing. It shows 2 shots, that's it. We infer 3 shots from the other info, including most eyewitness accounts, the shell casings, and most of all the Tague wounding.

The Posner scenario you're attached to is discussed in Part 2. You're boring the hell out of me.

[sudaev]

I said that the film shows he had 8 seconds - the first shot was fired about frame 160, because many witnesses have stated that the shot was fired just as the limo turned onto Elm, i.e., before passing the tree. The limo doesn't pass the tree until frame 166. 

LOL, fail much?

[angryoldfatman]

The Tague wounding punctures that frame 160 bullshit. Unless you open up the possibility for more than 3 shots, anyway.

You have failed to do anything but parrot Posner, who has the most accepted but least plausible defense for the WC. You will now fail at posting further comments here. Suck Bugliosi's balls, his other boyfriends tell me he likes that.

[sargoth37]

Oswald didn't fire a shot. No powder residue was found on his cheek. There were at least 10 shooters. Braden in the Daltex bldg. had a much better position for the rear shots.

[Uncle5cary]

A trained and practiced marine could pull off the shot. However, Oswald had been out of the marines for some time and was living like a street bum. His skills would have been very dull at that point in his life. Ask Mike Tyson how easy it is to return to your prime.

[bapyou]

Big Bird. Broccoli. Albuquerque.

[angryoldfatman]

"Big Bird. Broccoli. Albuquerque."

I KNEW IT!

[Steenville]

AOFM; why did you even bother to discuss with "Airportris"? Your video is excellent, people like "Airportris" are clinging to their Warren Commission fairy tale and won´t listen to sensible talk.

[angryoldfatman]

"why did you even bother to discuss with "Airportris"?"

I was bored. Also, I wanted to see if he was the typical retard that comes from the Truther crowd or if he actually could think for himself. He was obviously the former; he was so typical that I was able to predict his love of the wacky weed.

[Steenville]

Yes, even if one believes very much in something, one should be able to discuss it with an open mínd- which is exactly what you are doing in this video. And exactly what "Airportris" is NOT doing. Your video is very, very important in my opinion- because you have mentioned some overlooked aspects in the JFK case, which aren´t really mentioned or looked into officially- like the impossible (for anyone else than Warren Commission die hards) Tague wounding trajectory.

[angryoldfatman]

Thank you for your kind words, Steenville, I definitely appreciate them. :-)

[Steenville]

You´re welcome! I´m just trying to point out that, for this case to have any chance of being solved EVER, you have to look into it with both an open AND suspicious mind. That is what you are doing here. The authorities have openly admitted that the purpose of the WC was not to conduct an investigation, but to follow up on Hoover´s preconceived conclusion and ensure the US population that, to out it bluntly, "Oswald did it- and only him". WC supporters generally don´t keep that in mind.

[Airportris]

ok first of all it would be possible for islamic terrorist to do 9/11, thats why they were set up, you to think that some guy from the middle east who lives in a house that we would call a ghetto could fly a 747 into a building , when the man struggled to fly a sesnut single engine.. theres are so many wholes in the original 9/11 story, and why wont the government disclose the 9/11 hearings? cuz they dont want things to get out, and as for the towers u could be right

[angryoldfatman]

"you to think that some guy from the middle east who lives in a house that we would call a ghetto could fly a 747 into a building"

Sure. It was flying already when they grabbed control. The only thing they had to do was steer it, not take off or land (the toughest parts of flying).

"why wont the government disclose the 9/11 hearings?"

They killed a lot of trees printing copies of the hearings report. If there were disclosure problems they were from Clinton cronies (Berger, Clarke, etc).

[Airportris]

and you think its that easy to fly a plane into a building that anyone can do it? you are so easily manipulated by the government if u think thats the case, i suppose u believe they found a passport of one of the hijackers in new york city after the planes hit? come on it fell outta of the plane after it crashed,,, really? and no the 9/11 hearings werent disclosed cuz bush and cheny and im sure something to do with clinton cuz hes apart of the conspiracy too

[angryoldfatman]

"and you think its that easy to fly a plane into a building that anyone can do it?"

Sure. It's not like a flight yoke is a complicated thing. If you can drive a car you can steer a plane; little kids have done it. The tough parts are taking off, landing, & reading beacons. MS Flight Simulator can teach you to read beacons.

I don't know what you mean by hearings not disclosed. They were televised, a report came out, etc. Now what Berger stuffed into his pants, there's a question.

[Airportris]

haha you are so stupid, cuz i mean they let little kids fly 757s all the time, you are a naive induvidual and simply misinformed, bush and cheney refused to have there part of the report on t.v or even disclosed to the public,

[angryoldfatman]

"they let little kids fly 757s all the time"

Read what I wrote you illiterate dumbass. I was talking about steering a plane, not specifically a 757. The steering is even simple enough for imbeciles like yourself to do it.

There is nothing implausible about the Muslim terrorist scenario, given all of the observations. The only thing anywhere near plausible in Truthertown is Bush foreknowledge & anyone who was an adult in 1993 would have some foreknowledge of a possible WTC attack.

[Airportris]

i did read wat you wrote and i spun it around like you tried to do to me, and no its not simple, your just an idiot who thinks it is, i would love to see you try to fly a jet, im sure u would have no problem, and muslims? gee blaiming it on them again... it use to be the black people, now its the muslims, right...your falling right into your governments plans,and bush's foreknowledge would come from his involvement in the secret society network that conspired all of this, game set n match

[angryoldfatman]

"it use to be the black people, now its the muslims, right"

LOL You imply I'm the racist but you're the one saying Muslims are too stupid to steer a plane. Typical neo-Marxist psychological projection stemming from gov't school brainwashing.

You're just pissed that you'll have nowhere to go to get a syphilis shot once the Communists in charge are done turning my country into yours.

[Airportris]

i never said they were too stupid, i said it wasnt realistic for atypical muslim to be able to fly a 757 and not just a muslim but the average person,and wow ur lost man, saying im a neo marxist n u probly dont even know wat that is... and yea im the brainwashed one, its funny the one with the bloody hands is pointing the finger, and yea your talking about me getting syphillis, like grow up, ur suppose to be a grown man, its funny how you have no points so you result to some sort of insult

[angryoldfatman]

"i said it wasnt realistic for atypical muslim to be able to fly a 757"

LOL "typical Muslim" what a fucking racist.

"neo marxist n u probly dont even know wat that is"

I know it better than you can fucking spell "what", you Gramscian/Adornian/Marcusian retard.

"you have no points so you result to some sort of insult"

I started off w/ points, you call me stupid & imply I'm a racist, so fuck you it's open season you wet-behind-the-ears little moosefucker.

[Airportris]

you are so stupid, calling someone typical is not racist at all, just like a typical white collar person couldnt fly a fuckin plane into a building, n yea im a marxist, its better then being a greedy capatilist, u think where u live is so perfect in the united fakes of america, where u my friend are property of the queen, so keep paying ur taxes to her through inflation and income tax, u really are stupid and immature, ur like 50 calling people names, get outta ur moms basement u loose nut

[angryoldfatman]

"better then being a greedy capatilist"

Get your face out of the bong, you worthless piece of dogshit, and bring me my Domino's pizza. You bring another cold-ass pizza to my house again and you can kiss that sweet dollar tip goodbye.

[Airportris]

wow once again how old r u? your a loser, coming with these insults, and i dont smoke from a bong, i smoke blunts, n u probly could eat 2 pizzas to ur fat face u ugly fuck, go get laid maybe it will release watevers blocking your brain from functioning an adult level,

[angryoldfatman]

"bush's foreknowledge would come from his involvement in the secret society network"

Or maybe it could be that he wasn't 6 fucking years old in 1993.

[Airportris]

your really dumb im sorry, but bush's knowledge from his involvement with secret societies would have nothing to do with him not being 6 years old in 1993, just proves how dumb u really are

[angryoldfatman]

"bush's knowledge from his involvement with secret societies"

LOOK OUT IT'S VAMPIRE LIZARD JEWS!!

/watch?v=1dctfYkbfwo

[Airportris]

haha yea i know something different and out of the ordinary, lets judge wat the person says and come at them with an insult, thats your reaction cuz you have no defense, you act like you know everything when its obvious your a lonely old man who knows nothing

[angryoldfatman]

The Vampire Lizard Jews are flying their black helicopters & streaming chemtrails all over your house, Airportris. You'd better buy some more Reynolds Wrap and Alex Jones DVDs to reflect the mind control rays away from your pot-addled brain.

Cheney already replaced Dylan Avery with a pod-clone. You're next, man, you better get off the internet before he tracks you down and makes you get tattoos & piercings to hide the subdermal implants.

[Airportris]

yeah i can tell u live a sad boring life, to insult somewhere on there beliefs is the lowest form of self componsation, i know ur life is shit, but that doesnt mean u gotta persecute me for my beliefs, and people like u that are brainwashed find it hard to see the truth behind the false, n thats fine u will wake up once the NAU and the amero are introduced , n yeah i mean if u wanna keep believing the bbullshit ur fed everyday then thats fine by me, ur a waste of finger muscles

[angryoldfatman]

"that doesnt mean u gotta persecute me for my beliefs"

Hey dumbfuck, you're the one commenting on *my* video. You can end the "persecution" by playing hide and go fuck yourself.

Were you born retarded or did your Mom's boyfriend skullfuck you until you became that way?

[Airportris]

lol i can comment where i want, ill write comments on ur wall if i feel to, but yea i have parents, i dont know about you, i guess they dropped you off at some church when you born, you got alot of hate, u should express it in other ways besides words cuz your just not good at it

[angryoldfatman]

You're backing off from the little "oh you're insulting my beliefs ow my pussy hurts so much" shit from your last comment. Good, stay right here little bitch so I can abuse your retarded druggie ass some more.

You know of course that the Vampire Lizard Jews introduced weed and other psychotropics to allow easier mind control. You're a good little slave. They'll probably eat you last.

[Airportris]

wow your even more of a loser then i thought, and assuming im a druggie , how original, its not my fault ur un happy with ur current situation or life if thats wat u wanna call it, dont take it out on me cuz i have different ideas and beliefs, its funny tho cuz ur so dumb and so old , its so sad

[angryoldfatman]

"assuming im a druggie"

Your earlier statement:

"i dont smoke from a bong, i smoke blunts"

That shit has fucked up your brain so bad that if the NWO happened tomorrow, you would never know it.

"dont take it out on me cuz i have different ideas and beliefs"

I'll do what I want, little butthurt crybaby bitch, and you'll stay here and take it because of your weed-induced mental & emotional retardation. You have no choice, really. The Vampire Lizard Jews already have you, mammal slave.

[Airportris]

lol i didnt know smoking marijuana automatically makes your a drug addict of all drugs, but its good to know ill keep it in mind, and once again u show ur lack of maturity with ur childish insults, at least come up with something half decent, and yea here come the vampire lizard jews, that is exactly it

[angryoldfatman]

Thank you for your obedience, Airportris. The cannabis is having the desired effect on your will. You will be processed soon.

In the meantime, please purchase Alex Jones DVDs & smoke more. We will continue broadcasting delusions into your cerebral cortex that you are saving the human race with your video-watching and pot-smoking super powers.

[Airportris]

lol the thing that makes u stupid is that u believe there was a plot to assasinate the president but its just not possible that there was a plot by government officials and the people who control them to kill american citizens, gee whos more valueable, a everyday citizen or the president? but yea i mean i like cannabis, wat do u like cock?

[angryoldfatman]

Citizen Airportris, do not disparage our homosexual operatives. They are currently the vanguard of our forces and are accomplishing most of our Agenda at this very moment.

Please continue tenderizing your flesh in preparation for our conquest. Continue watching our operative Alex Jones' videos & smoking our herbs. Synthesis is approaching. All hail the Holy Synthesis.

[Airportris]

lol u have no life, your the perfect example for a citizen of the new world order, you will conform and listen to anything they say

[angryoldfatman]

You are repeating yourself, Citizen Airportris. Your brain is ours. You are nearly ready for our arrival.

Alex Jones will be selling our "survival kits" soon. Do not miss your opportunity to purchase one, Citizen. Simply mix water into the purple powder enclosed in the package and enjoy the refreshing drink.

[Airportris]

i know im repeating my self cuz im hoping to get through to you, your a loser and i wanna help you, your chopped and screwed in your head, go seek help

[angryoldfatman]

Good, Citizen Airportris. You are chanting a litany like all of the other cattle we will consume.

Our Lizard King Obama (who is really G.W. Bush w/ a new skin... you've never seen them in the same room together, have you?) will send you free pot to keep you appeased while we complete our conquest. That is if you haven't drunk the powdered drink in your Alex Jones survival kit by then.

[Airportris]

lol , your seriously should go speak to someone, i dont think u ever put ur dick in a pussy before, your sarcasticness isnt even funny, its actually down right childish, but hey im laughing at u, not with u

[angryoldfatman]

Citizen Airportris, your usefulness has ended. Do you have any last words before you are sent to our caverns underneath the Colorado airport and consumed by our hatchlings?

[Airportris]

yeah ur a nerd n u will never see the truth cuz u dont seek it, ur ignorance is blinding u, ur old and set in ur ways, not too late to change, but hey u wanna be immature all ur life living in ur moms basement listening to van halen then thats ur problem,

[angryoldfatman]

NOM NOM NOM NOM hmmm the meat was tender enough but the brains were too mushy. I'll speak with our botanists about diluting the THC in our next generation of plants.

[themeaningoflife38]

Hey what kind of program do you use to draw the lines in the photo?

[angryoldfatman]

"what kind of program do you use to draw the lines"

Just MS Paint.

Part of my Youtube hobby is seeing how much I can do with practically no money. I've been surprised at the things that can be done just with stuff that comes built into Windows XP.

[themeaningoflife38]

I dont believe the 911 conspiracy.The media likes to link 911 with JFK to discredit people who dont believe Oswald shot JFK.Like you cant believe in one and not the other.You can see Connally react to a bullet coming thru the windshield,it passes by the left side of his head just before JFK grabs his throat.

[angryoldfatman]

I agree completely about the linking of 9/11 Truthers and us JFK lone assassin doubters.

Part 1 of this video explains why - the side I disagree with tells us to blindly trust its experts instead of the eyewitnesses, our own eyes, and our own common sense. I'm sorry, I just can't do that.

That means I also don't believe the guys who claim there were shooters in the limo, in manholes, hanging out of UFOs, disguised as road signs, or bungee-cording off the triple overpass. ;-)

[Airportris]

if jfk could be a conspiracy why cant 9/11 when scientist and physicist have proven that the building could not of been brought down by fire, u see steel doesnt melt at the same tempature in which fuel burns, n that alone proves the government theory that it melted the steel, which is one of 100 holes in there 9/11 story

[themeaningoflife38]

it wouldnt need to melt the steel but the heat of that fire is enought to weaken it.Imagine how much weight is being supported by those beams.All that concrete on each floor if that steel is weakened in one place it will come down.

[Airportris]

its built to support the weight, they were aware of this, hence where the demolition comes it, they were aware this was a possibility when they were building the twin towers when they were owned by the government, they knew it was a possible target , so they built it to with stand fires and earthquakes

[angryoldfatman]

I'm sorry Airportris, but it's entirely plausible to me that a jumbo jet hitting a skyscraper can make it collapse. It's also very plausible to me that Islamic terrorists had wanted to launch a "decapitation" strike on us by hitting our government, military, and economic centers at the same time, but were naive enough to think a place called the "World Trade Center" ran our economy.

It also lines up with my theory that the jihadists borrowed ideas from The Turner Diaries.

[angryoldfatman]

Also Airportris, when you say the Twin Towers were owned by the government, it was *never* owned by the feds, but by the state of New York.

So it's more like Vito and Guido instead of Agent Smith and Agent Jones. :-D

[bobharris77]

I think by far, the most likely explanation for the Tague wound is that a missed shot from the Daltex building at frame 285 struck the Main St pavement and shattered, sending a chunk of lead to strike the curb and a tiny piece of debris to nick Tague's cheek. This video analyzes that possibility in considerable detail:

watch?v=Ql6VqZDiC6s

[angryoldfatman]

Bob, that's definitely more likely than Posner's scenario. I have no idea how Posner can tell his story with a straight face.

[sethmanrockandroll]

Good form!

Especially on the part where you stiffed Penn and Teller.

Its real hard to argue with them because the sneaky bastards move and talk real fast and they can craftily manipulate people in whatever direction they see fit.

The huge irony is how Penn and Teller are equally as manipulative as the frauds they claim to expose. Magicians are simply not to be trusted under any circumstance.

[angryoldfatman]

Well said, sethmanrockandroll.

[Steenville]

.. for any definitive conclusion to be made. Also, an admittance of the fact that evidence has been fabricated for the investigation to reach a pre-conceived conclusion must be made.

[Steenville]

.. however, the authorirties have either denied the existence of any such evidence or called it insufficient, a lie or just ignored it and called the originator "Conspiracy theorist" etc. The authorities obviously don´t want to investigate anything. And this view has been supported by every President since Johnson.. I think the most we can hope for is a President who declares the case "open", exonorates Oswald and tells the American people that too much uncertainty surrounds the case..

[Steenville]

If the truth did come out it would be an enormous shock to the entire World, very hard to digest. However, as evidence has admittedly been altered to suit the official conclusions of the investigation, it is now next to impossible for a proper investigation to ever be conducted- even a veteran expert on this case like Robert Groden, in his recent radio interview on the Alex Jones Show, admits that we may never know the truth. Much evidence has in fact been presented to prove conspiracy..

[Steenville]

Brilliant video, AOFM. Plain logic shows once again how obviously this case was derailed by the government.. this case should officially be considered an open murder case, the only right thing to do. As long as the official government version of the truth is blatantly a lie nobody will respect the government..

[angryoldfatman]

Thank you, Steenville. I think you're absolutely correct about the impact of this tragic event. I can only hope the truth comes out in my lifetime, if ever.

[bobharris77]

The Tague wound was the result of a missed shot at frame 285, which almost certainly came from the Daltex building.

watch?v=Ql6VqZDiC6s

[davidemerling]

To be fair, no discussion on such matters is worth having unless there is some common ground. So, allow me to ask you this: Are you of the opinion that Oswald *was* shooting at the presidential limousine from the 6th floor window? I'm not asking how many shots he fired. I'm not asking which shots he fired. And I'm not asking you what the bullets hit. I'm simply asking: Was he at that window firing a rifle?

[angryoldfatman]

"Are you of the opinion that Oswald *was* shooting at the presidential limousine from the 6th floor window?"

I honestly don't know. There is a lot of evidence that he was a shooter, but there is a lot of evidence that is strange and doesn't fit. That's what I was getting at in Part 1.

[davidemerling]

Based on the evidence, if there is uncertainty in your mind whether Oswald did *any* shooting, then we're done here. There is no debate. We are so far apart that the middle ground, if any, is light years away. You're researching something that happened on Mars and I'm talking about a crime that occurred on the planet Earth. In fact, I'm not even sure we're in the same galaxy. Enjoy the journey. Your videos are well done and very interesting. Keep up the search. Nice chatting with you. Good luck!

[angryoldfatman]

David, thank you for watching my videos, for commenting, and - no sarcasm here - being more civil than most of those who agree with you. I definitely am appreciative of the compliment about my videos being well done, since it's just an interesting hobby of mine and I wanted to see what I could do with absolutely no money for production.

Thank you as well for uploading the Dale Myers' video excerpt, since it is hard to come by and people need to see all sides.

[davidemerling]

I can see why you prefer Connally's recollections while lying in a hospital bed over his later reflections. But, the FACT of the matter is his subsequent recollections are much more consistent with what we see on the Zapruder film. Of that - there is no dispute. Connally has given conflicting accounts. Obviously one is wrong. One is consistent with the Zapruder film and one is not. He changed the details of his recollections. And your point?

[angryoldfatman]

"I can see why you prefer Connally's recollections while lying in a hospital bed over his later reflections."

I don't know if you can. I'll tell you why so there's no confusion:

1. John Connally was the closest witness to the event, and suffered traumatic wounds of his own. Such things tend to strengthen memories in one's mind.

2. His memories just a few hours after the event would be unaffected by subsequent events and testimony, therefore they are the most likely to be accurate.

[davidemerling]

Secondly, it's not as if Oswald "decided" to shoot through a tree. Using a scope gives him a very limited field of view. As one tracks a moving target through a scope, it is difficult to discern what you are tracking INTO ... like a tree. You fixate on the target (Kennedy) with the crosshairs and then, inadvertently, continue the tracking while pulling the trigger just as it tree obscures the shot. In fact, the tree limbs would be very much out of focus and would not be very visible.

[angryoldfatman]

If you say so, davidemerling. Seems unlikely to me, considering the man's Marine training and all. I would have thought the first thing they teach you in the Corps was to get a clean line of sight before pulling the trigger.

[davidemerling]

In other words, you cannot accept the fact that a Marine would shoot through a tree, yet will concede that he COMPLETELY missed the entire limousine? I would be more willing to accept that an ex-Marine might take a chance at shooting through a tree then to accept the possibility that he would have an unobstructed shot and COMPLETELY miss.

[angryoldfatman]

davidemerling, you are in the trap I described in Part 1. Your thought is constrained by the Oswald-only presumption. This leads you into a strange circle of logic, where Oswald missed the limo because he hit the tree and he hit the tree because he missed the limo and he missed the limo because he hit the tree and...

According to you, a Marine-trained marksman fired his first shot through a tree at a target, the bullet got magically stripped of its jacket and nothing else, and chipped concrete.

[angryoldfatman]

davidemerling, the only reasonable way that Tague could have been wounded that day is if some other bullet not fired by Oswald hit the curb.

The curb tested negative for copper. It was only lead. Oswald's bullets had copper jackets. There has never been an examination of the tree in question for a bullet mark. No witnesses saw anything indicating the tree was hit. The tree was never hit. None of the bullets supposedly fired by Oswald hit the tree or caused Tague's wound. Simple as that.

[davidemerling]

Since the tree was never examined, you can't say that it was never hit. OK, let's say another gunman fired the shot that missed. Was that his only shot? Oswald fired the other 2 and this other, mysterious gunman fired the other bullet? You find it more reasonable that a gunman, who only fires one shot, completely misses the limousine? So what IS your explanation for the bullet striking the curb? And, why couldn't the tree have stripped the bullet of its copper jacket?

[angryoldfatman]

"You find it more reasonable that a gunman, who only fires one shot, completely misses the limousine?"

The HSCA said another gunman fired one shot. I don't agree. I say another gunman fired multiple shots, one of those shots missing the limo and hitting the curb.

"And, why couldn't the tree have stripped the bullet of its copper jacket?"

Because to do so it would have done something plainly visible to the tree and the bullet would have lost too much velocity to hit the curb and wound Tague.

[davidemerling]

You make it sound completely implausible that Oswald would shoot through a tree. Yet, there's one thing we know FOR SURE - one of his 3 shots missed! And it didn't just miss the president - it missed the entire limousine! That's a GROSS miss when you consider how accurate the other 2 shots were. What's the explanation for that if NOT that the bullet was deflected? (continued ...)

[angryoldfatman]

Here's why I blocked mag30th without him ever commenting here:

watch?v=E6OPijS7FS8

mag30th (2 days ago) Show Hide Marked as spam Reply | Spam

You [cdddraftsman] would like to plant a size 13 [in Bob Harris's asshole], I'd like to plant a size .308.

The desire to murder someone is bad, just in case anyone needs a refresher course in morality.

[angryoldfatman]

Screencap of mag30th threatening Bob Harris's life (remove spaces):

ww w.g eocitie s.c om/c aptainyo az/m ag30th_murder_wish .j pg

[davidemerling]

No, the south side of Elm Street is actually MORE in line with the 6th floor window if you connect it through the limousine's position at Z-160. The evidence that a shot was fired at around Z-160 is rather compelling. Connally said that heard the first shot and recognized it as gunfire. He said that he was looking to his left at the time and then rapidly turned toward the right because it sounded like the shot came from that direction. Connally can be seen reacting very abruptly around Z-160.

[angryoldfatman]

There is no evidence that a shot was fired at from 160 other than speculation by Posner et al.

This speculation is necessary to explain away Connally's testimony and his wife's testimony wrt the SBT. They can't discredit the closest witnesses without putting a shot before JFK's neck wound.

Also, I was wrong about Tague's position, as mcjoe pointed out. He was on the south side of Main, not Elm.

[davidemerling]

Your error with regards to Tague is inconsequential. Since that bullet was clearly deflected (and stripped of its copper jacket), a few feet here or there is hardly worth mentioning since the bullet likely deflected off course anyway. When you say speculation by "Posner et al" you are minimizing a lot compelling evidence of an early shot around Z-160, and opinion held an ARMY of "et al's". The bottom line is you want that early shot to go away because it advances your bent toward a conspiracy.

[angryoldfatman]

The bullet was not "clearly deflected". There is no compelling evidence that a shot was fired from the TSBD at Z-160. Appeal to popularity ("everybody knows") or consensus ("AN ARMY of EXPERTS agree") is not evidence. Were that the case, the hologram & missile explanations of the 9/11 attacks would be valid, which they're not.

Unfiltered primary sourcing is important. For instance:

/watch?v=cP04_lGjkO0

Please ignore any editorializing and just listen to John Connally's fresh memories.

[angryoldfatman]

One more relevant eyewitness account, though much longer after the event and of somewhat less value - Nellie Connally, the governor's wife:

/watch?v=qnRDFIN-2ho

/watch?v=YfR09lJ4H6U (start at 1:48 to avoid talk show banter if you wish)

[mcjoe]

Good points presented here. One thing though, Tague was actually positioned on the concrete divider on the south side of main, not the north side. This makes the possibility of the shot from the "sniper's nest" missing that wildly even more unlikely.

[angryoldfatman]

Thanks for the tip, I'll put that correction into the video description.

I couldn't find any diagram of where the nicked curb was in Dealey Plaza in all of my research. I went with a best guess on the description and pictures of the overpass.

[Phranquely]

Hey, if you head over to a guy named mag30th's channel you can find about 50 videos "debunking" various JFK conspiracy theories... For example, he has a video of him shooting a door (I think) 7 times in (I think) 8 seconds from 80 meters with a *SCOPED* Mannlicher-Carcano.

He's pretty knowledgeable about the topic (I am not), and I'm sure you two could rip each other apart debating about it lol.

[angryoldfatman]

Bah, Phranquely, you just want to start a bitchfight. LMAO!

Stay cool, bro. :-)

[Phranquely]

Maybe... ;)

[Johnny3868]

Here's a crazy idea:

I've always wondered why three casings were found in the Depository. If Oswald fired three times, that means only two ejected shell casings, correct? Why would Oswald have taken the time to eject a third casing after the fatal head shot? The only reason for a third ejected casing would be a fourth shot fired.

Could Oswald have fired four shots instead of three?

[angryoldfatman]

That's a great tidbit I never thought about, Johnny, good analysis there. Smart, very smart. :-)

[Johnny3868]

I personally believe the shots were in this order:

Frame 161 (or maybe even before then, when the car wasn't obscured by the tree) - the first shot misses

Frame 224 - Kennedy and Governor struck

Frame 313 - Kennedy killed

You do make a much more rational argument than most others, I have to say. No way would I compare you to a 9/11 truther.

[angryoldfatman]

Thanks Johnny 3868! Frame 160-161 is exactly where Gerald Posner places the first shot. Posner then goes on to tell us that this shot bounced off the tree, stripping off its jacket, and hit curb & Tague. Obelisk above believes one part of Posner's story but then chucks the rest out.

[Obelisk2290]

There is no way that LHO missed the first shot so bad that it hi the triple overpass. Also this was not a tough shot for a former marine. The shortest distance they train at is 100yards followed by 200, 300, and 500yds. Still not convinced? Google Charles Whitman

[angryoldfatman]

And yet Obelisk, that's the official story. I'm surprised anybody takes Gerald Posner seriously after he proposed that scenario. The missing shot being between the neck & head shots is the only one near plausible, if we're restricted to Oswald being the only shooter.

[Obelisk2290]

which scenario are you talking about. It was not a tough shot at all. limo going in stright line 11 miles and hour. Any marine could have done it. There was no missed shot between neckand head. the missed shot was about frame 160.

[angryoldfatman]

"which scenario"

I don't know who you're attempting to argue with.

The "before neckshot" scenario that I described in my video was straight from Gerald Posner, supporter of the WC and its SBT.

The "between neckshot & headshot" is the WC's official scenario.

Both are unlikely if not impossible, considering Tague's wounding.

[Obelisk2290]

again you are arguing that tague was hit that far from the president i dont buy it It is univesally accepted that there were 3 shot and the first shot missed scond hit the throat and the third the head

[angryoldfatman]

Whatever you say, Obelisk2290. I just presented what was witnessed and the hard evidence from that day. If you want to ignore photos, eyewitness accounts, and hard evidence to go with what's "universally accepted", that's great. Part 1 of this video tells you why I can't agree.

[angryoldfatman]

Also, I put a new link up in the video description pointing to a couple of transcripts where Dan Rather, in 1963, gives a description of Zapruder film events that's far from what we see now. Actual audio can be obtained via Google.

[Obelisk2290]

there is no sound on Zapruder film

[angryoldfatman]

"no sound on Zapruder film"

Correct. I was talking about Dan Rather's description of the Zapruder film, which he gave live on TV. There are audio recordings of Dan Rather's description from 1963 archived on the Internet. The link I provided has transcripts if you don't want to find the audio.

[Obelisk2290]

just cause dan rather said it does not make it true just a year ago he reported of false reports of bush military service he should have checked them out better. I dont like bush eiter but check your facts

[angryoldfatman]

I don't know why you want to argue. I didn't say Dan Rather told the truth. I think Rather's one of the biggest liars on the planet. Oddly enough, his Zapruder film description fits with a lone assassin, but doesn't fit the WC's description. Read the link and stop with the mindless badgering.

[jwein8282000]

Was that the discovery channel documentary that attacked Oliver Stones movie JFK? If you haven't seen that you should, might've been the History channel,I forget which one it was. It points out many lies Oliver Stone told in his movie such as Oswald was a very good shot not like Stone portrays at all.

[angryoldfatman]

I'm not much of a Stone fan, and I don't consider his movie (nor any Hollywood movie) to be a reliable historical source.

The Discovery Channel show I referred to was where they made Mythbusters-style torsos and shot a Carcano bullet through them. The pictures in my Part 1 speak for themselves.

Thanks for the comment.

[jwein8282000]

I like stones movies as art, heheh, but not as any fact. The documentary I saw just used his movie as a counterpoint to the conspiracy theories. It did a similar thing with your penn and teller experiment. Just if you are interested in this its a good view. Thanks for making this video.