Death Penalty Debate (8/8): Stephen Markman, Christopher Hitchens (1997)

[freddiemercerful]

2:02 Christophers cheeky grin as the Rev gives a biblical example.

[ConcernedCitizen158]

Hitchens looks palpably uncomfortable when Jackson was relatng the parable of Mary Magdalene.

[oneblueorange]

@ConcernedCitizen158 bullshit....he looked as if he loved that allusion

[hobodoctor]

Judicial punishment exists because every member of society has equal stake in its welfare, and when a member of society harms the infrastructure, they temporarily lose their place in society.

This is the only way in which any human has the right to punish another, but a crucial distinction is that it only gives the right to banish or charge for the right not be banished: no man or group can ever, as punishment, have authority to say that another man doesn't have a right to exist.

[sorsocksfake]

Pretty much any argument against DP applies equally to every other form of punishment. Murder is wrong. So is taking someone's freedom. Losing 10 years of your life in jail, is equally irreversible. And to some, a life sentence is worse than death - if you say death is immoral, then even more so a worse sentence. And death is in a way the least cruel of all punishments (if done right).

Whether the state has the right to punish? Tough one. I'd say, no, but, not punishing would be even worse.

[sorsocksfake]

Pretty much any argument against DP applies equally to every other form of punishment. Murder is wrong. So is taking someone's freedom. Losing 10 years of your life in jail, is equally irreversible. And to some, a life sentence is worse than death - if you say death is immoral, then even more so a worse sentence. And death is in a way the least cruel of all punishments (if done right).

Whether the state has the right to punish? Tough one. I'd say, no, but, not punishing would be even worse.

[nthomas87]

Of course, as is his fashion, it had to end with a Hitchslap.

[gloves71]

I'm so glad Hitch slapped Arkes at the end there... what an obnoxious little weasel. And I notice he deliberately avoids shaking Hitch's hand.

[iLoveSalami]

Oh, it's so cute to see the good reverend almost jumping with excitement at the end of Mr Hitchens' closing remarks. It's a scene reminiscent of a father who brings his five-year-old son to work and the kid is all worked up because he gets to participate in adult stuff. Jackson being the kid of course.

[RAINBOWMATRIXS1]

Such as with the Troy Davis case 7 of 9 witnesses have recounted their

testimony, how come cameras aren't in every building? Recording every move and word of an officer and witness so that cases don't get out of hand as we see today? The very thought of an execution without real proof has gotten under my skin, I can't stand the thought of this happening in 2011. Thanks for the post.

[bertiethetoupee4]

I sat through all of this awful debate thinking 'when is Hitch going to say something?' and, 'when is someone going to answer the damn question that was put to them?' but Hitchens' closing remark was worth the two hours I just spent listening to question-dodging, tyrannous moderation, and pompous moralistic tripe about the holocaust and abortions.

[EdDueim]

 Arkes was just tossing word-salad at any difficult question, and the mod called it an answer.

Badly moderated debate, but Hitch triumphed again.

[Birdo661]

i need to watch C-Span2 more often =]

[dillonfreed]

Jesses Jackson starts off quite alright... but then he skids off the rails...

[PaytonFu]

Can't help but notice how many questions from the audience were not directed at Hitch...mabye that's because people have a clear understanding of the verbal beating they would take! Don't cross the Hitch!

[eliasgandalf]

Hitchens is absolutely right in saying that the proponents of capital punishment always dodge the moral implications of the practice. Does the state have the right to take an individual's life or not? On a personal level I have to say that Stephen Markman and Hadley Arkes are two coldblooded reptiles and their arguments as well as their general appearance makes me physically ill.

[SeeProfileForDetails]

@eliasgandalf do you have the right to take a cow's life? people do it every day. Do you have the right to take a rabbid dog's life? people do it every day. If a criminal killed 17 women, shouldn't that criminal be put out of his misery instead of costing tax payers money in prisons?

[Yedaddy1234]

@SeeProfileForDetails

As the gentleman noted earlier, it is more expensive to go through the procedures of fulfilling capitol punishment, then it is to lock them in a cage or prison for 50 years. I will go so far as to guess that most rarely live past that number of 50 simply because they virtually have no reason to live and their bodies would probably give way.

I'll extend this argument to you: If capitol punishment is so expedient and quick, then why give a killer of 17 women the courtesy?

[SeeProfileForDetails]

@Yedaddy1234 how can 50 years of Food be cheaper than killing immediately?

[Fenixx117]

is just me ,or does the opposition look like two child molesters?

[preemptivestrike20]

@Fenixx117 Very childish comment.

[Fenixx117]

@preemptivestrike20 herp derp



[tripleJ1955]

The continued use of the term "human sacrifice" as if the term were even remotely related to, let alone synonymous with the term death penalty, significantly reduces the impact of Hitchens' entire argument.

[slowmopoke]

omg hitch slapped!

[rugbyanden]

When Hitchens attack, you better dodge!

[GowanBray]

Ha did Koch say "Forced participants" instead of Four participants" at 4.53 ? 

[AscendingParadigm]

Christopher is a Rock Star

[garouHH]

I really like how the guy at the beginning goes through his list of safeguards in death penalty trials, especially considering that again and again people on death row are exonerated.

[dgdfhfghgfhgfgffjhj]

@garouHH

It is scary how many innocent people are sentenced to death. And those cases are supposed to be given extra special care, automatic appeals, etc.

You can imagine how much higher the number of false convictions must be when people are "only" locked away for the rest of their lives.

Sentencing an innocent person to life in prison is sentencing the real murderer's next victim to death. Why the different standards of processing?

[garouHH]

@dgdfhfghgfhgfgffjhj I don't think that your assumption that an unconvicted murderer will murder again holds up. Serial killers are a rather rare phenomenon. Not rare enough for my tastes, but still.

[dgdfhfghgfhgfgffjhj]

@garouHH

I will have to give you part of that, but you also seem to be assuming a dichotomy between the stereotypical serial killer, who kills endlessly for amusement, and a one-shot killer who only killed someone because of some overwhelmingly dramatic Lifetime Movie situation.

In between those are loads of cretins who assault and kill more than once over minor sums of money, gang rivalries, etc.

[garouHH]

@dgdfhfghgfhgfgffjhj Good point, in those cases your clam holds true.

[tripleJ1955]

@garouHH @garouHH If not the safeguards, just what do you think gets people exonerated?? A writ of Habeas corpus, a second appeal, maybe a third? Oh wait, those are some of the safeguards. Without those safeguards, once the judge dropped the gavel and handed down the death sentence, the only prisoners getting out of the death house, would be the corpses.

[garouHH]

@tripleJ1955 Sorry, I should have written "that again and again people on death row are posthumously exonerated."

[tripleJ1955]

@garouHH I am unaware of any documented cases of a post execution exoneration, at least not in the United States that is. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[garouHH]

@tripleJ1955 Just google "posthumously found innocent" and you'll find not just too many, but rather many. As for the US, there is at least the case of William Jackson Marion who was found innocent beyond any doubt (as his "victim" was still alive), but there are also many cases in which convictions have been posthumously overturned.

[oldhacks]

mmmm death