Max Roach & Quartet 2ª parte

[riccdrum]

stop talking about people like donati or mangini in this video,they play stupid solos for ignorant posers and ridicolous muzak....their technique is only masturbation.

max roach is a real artist and a drum pioneer,so listen and shut up.

[MrFreeman420]

when are people going to learn that its not about whos the better drummer? its really starting to become a pet-peeve of mine

[feedkillchain]

Only heard this guy today, but it's obvious he's more soulful and musical than most I've heard on a standard drum kit. Polyrhythms to boot! Art is expression, emotion, ideas - not display of technical prowess (even though this guy has it). That's what makes most extending soloing a BORE to those who don't play the specific instrument that's wailing. Any measure of technique judges against a presupposed set of rules, which are not universal across the spectrum of music, thus making them BUNK.

[behjoh]

Right!!!!

[noveajimaburro]

viva tito puente, es broma xdxd. es la primera vez que escuchaba a este hombre y me a impresionado, es genial.

[superdemonoid]

that was terrible. lol i cant believe people really think this guy is better then buddy rich.

[behjoh]

My Man: They are both Great Great Great. Never dio comparisons betwin musicians. They both found theyr ways to make people happy and express ther feelings musicaly. You can`t compare. What is better? Apples or oranges??? Well some people prefers apples other oranges. Only depends on taste. Wich one do you prefer?? Listen to him as much as you can and once in a while listen to someone else. Don`t compare musicians.Listen to them. Good luck

[abquestion]

Behjoh, you took the words out of my mouth. I'd suggest only one more thing: when you listen to something that isn't your usual preference don't analyze it first, don't compare, don't wait for something familiar. Take your time and just listen- absorb it without judging. I'm sure you'll gain at least some good emotions. You'll favourites still will be there but you'll get some extra inspiration.

[behjoh]

I LOVE both of them. That´s possible, you know? They are absolutely diferent,And they both did a lot to the enhancement of the drums in jazz idiom. Take care

[drumgod629]

perfect in every way.

[elgranqueso]

la raja

[bulletman100]

damn stop hitting your sticks when you roll. PRACTICE!

[JoMu82]

And I like this solo beacuse I could sing it in the shower, and not BECAUSE it is especially fast or dexterous (though it is)

[Ramatganski]

You CAN sing many things that you don't - because you don't like them. So it isn't only because you can, that you like this solo (I hope?!), it's because of it's special appeal, and it would be naive to think that the musician's skills which it intentionally brought into play have nothing to do with that appeal, right?

[JoMu82]

Yes, and when you mention "special appeal" you seem to cease to remain committed to your "objective aesthetic criteria." I, unlike some people on here, believe that Max had a high level of skill on his instrument. But if you are judging this based on a model of "ideal forms of the perfect technique," you risk minimizing, if not nullifying his contribution to the art form.

[Ramatganski]

Actually, the more I listen to this solo, the more I like it.

[osger1]

He was a genius. Keeping that 5/8 thing going with both feet whilst playing those melodies with your hands is very hard.

[JoMu82]

"Please, listen to the part at 01:40-01:48 and around 01:30, I don't feel precision in these parts. Also, I would mention the movement of the high-hat at 01:30, which caused a pause. That's what I meant.

I understand them to be imperfections, and I heard similar things in his other performances."

gregmorrow, If you took a piece of coal, placed it between your ass cheeks, and left it there for an hour, you'd get a diamond. You see what I mean? Lighten up, man.

[Ramatganski]

Well, what about not feeling music in these parts, just immature throwing the hands around and hoping for the best for the sake of showing off? Still, this is the best I've seen or heard of Max Roach, because at least he succeeded in showing off real independence, coordination and dexterity and he even managed to decently maintain the 3+2 sub-division with the base drum throughout. Pretty cool.

[JoMu82]

So there are always going to be different things that people listen for when they appreciate a piece of music, I know. I just think getting bogged down with issues of technique and independence, or "did he make a mistake in his left foot or not?" really diesn't have anything to do with music, for me.

[Ramatganski]

I'm afraid it doesn't work like that. Though there is a place for such a thing as "for me" (the listener's subjective interests), there are still objective things to be considered regarding the performing musician's motivations and interests. If you're not "in tune" with those, and you "choose" to be enthusiastic about something else, then you might as well enjoy his playing because you like his suite and tie...

[Ramatganski]

You see, it's obvious (don't deny it) that you attribute this same lack of interest in technique and independence to Max Roach, assuming that he showed in this solo the same liberal open minded approach to musicality such as yours which gives place for anything, as long as it's "musical" and sounds "good". Is this a realistic assumption? I know that it's a common misunderstanding caused by liberal good intentions and contemporary loose aesthetic criteria, but it isn't founded in reality.

[JoMu82]

Right what I should have said is that issues of technique didn't affect my appreciation of THIS piece of music. Anyway, how do you assume that there is a perfect correlation between the aritist's intentions and the outcome? And if so, who determines what those intentions were? Would you concede that not every arist exibits absolute control over their craft, and if so, is this forgivable in your view?

[Ramatganski]

I guess my view is that everything regarding the understanding of an artist's motivations and intentions is debatable and not always obvious to others and probably even in some respects to that artist. But one can't ignore that which IS obvious to them, right?

On the issue of control and the lack of it, I think that sincerity is the most important thing: If one knows exactly what one's doing, one shouldn't pretend that they don't (like say pretend to improvise) and the other way around.

[Ramatganski]

I'm sorry, the continuation of my reply jumped to the top.

[Ramatganski]

So, watch this solo again and tell me that it wasn't important to HIM whether he'd miss a base drum strike or not, and ask yourself what is it exactly that you're supposed to be so enthusiastic about, if not that independence feat and the speed -- yes - don't kid yourself that it isn't what this solo is also about, it may not be what you want it to be about, because that would make it less impressive, but it would have had to be about almost nothing indeed to be more impressive.

[Ramatganski]

What I meant is that there isn't much else that can make it more impressive. Anyway, we can't just choose what to listen for when we come to appreciate a piece of music while overlooking what the artist intended to be listened for, and even though I generally share your "loose" approach, I can't say that emphasizing the significance of "technicalities" doesn't have "ANYTHING to do with music" for me, just not too much.

[JoMu82]

"Please, listen to the part at 01:40-01:48 and around 01:30, I don't feel precision in these parts. Also, I would mention the movement of the high-hat at 01:30, which caused a pause. That's what I meant.

I understand them to be imperfections, and I heard similar things in his other performances."

gregmorrow,

[Drumguy1988]

I noticed he's playing Match grip. He use to play Traditional Grip. Wonder why he changed.

[timothypetergreen]

what do you mean "its okay but theres much much better out there now, marco minneman, virgil donati, thomas lang etc" PPPFFFFFTTTTT Tony Williams, Max Roach, Elvin Jones, Art Blakey. You may think that Virgil Donati and Thomas Lang are good players, but ultimately there all created in there images. They where the True pioneers of modern jazz (along with many others) The rest just follow. well thats my 2 cents =].

[ersindrum]

just laughing

[Ramatganski]

Thomas Lang is definitely not a "good player", in fact he's horrible (as truly amazing as he is) but even he, and definitely those who are "good players", may very well be the "true pioneers" of things to come! So why don't you just stop this "the rest just follow" nonsense, because that's exactly what it is, and because we both know that you don't really know what's going on and what you're actually talking about.

[timothypetergreen]

obviously

[Ramatganski]

Hey, it's not like I know everything that has been and is going on, but I know better than to pretend that I do and to make the illogical mistake of diminishing the present and future achievements in light of those of the past.

[timothypetergreen]

I completely respect your opinion and your probably right. but i thought i made it pretty clear that it was "my 2 cents " (my opinion). im not trying to force it on you . i didnt meen for the first comment to be so in your face. i don't mind a bit of planet x myself, I'm just saying that it is unfair to say things like " virgil donati is a better drumer" because he had people like roach to learn from when roach didn't. I agree that virgil donati etc might be pioneers . BUT SO WAS MAX

[TampaRed]

Awesome.

[tinglao]

Gracias Max

[pjhirsch]

Very tasty. Thanks for all the great music. Rest in peace.

[granapodo]

descansa en paz maestro

[metalmasher]

The date is wrong. This is from around 1977-79

[behjoh]

The SOLO was written in 1952, not the performance in this video, obviously.Thanks for posting anyway.

[evorg666]

right on, ginonix.

[eyehatevenus]

its okay but theres much much better out there now, marco minneman, virgil donati, thomas lang etc

[ginonix]

completely different things, they cant touch max when it comes to originality. they are very good at making drumming very very hard and very technical, whereas max played with his soul. and this stuff is pretty tech too, try layering time signatures like roach, in a musical, ingenius way, rather than an unmusical mass of notes like the 'greats'

[Ramatganski]

Some very good examples for an "unmusical mass of notes" can be found also in this solo at 0:39-0:49, 1:45-1:48, 2:15-2:27 and that's on top of the situation being less demanding than what those "greats" commit themselves too. The very fact that one has to resort to stepping on people and discrediting their musicality just so they can continue to glorify someone else says it all. (And please stop forgetting Mike Mangini, even if he kinda looks like a creep).

[sillyilly]

please give me a fucking break... donati, marco MINIMUM and thomas lang play a bunch of patterns that they've practiced. what max is doing here is IMPROVISING over a 5/4 ostinato. he's taking risks, leaving space and making music. max, i learned a lot about playing music on the drums from you, rest in peace, you earned a good rest.

[Ramatganski]

Marko MINIMUM?! Max COCROACH! What the hell are you talking about saying that Donati, Marco, Lang and MIKE MANGINI (!) just play patterns (like Roach wasn't) and not improvising?!?! You think you can just say anything, get away with anything! And who were you speaking too - "eyehatevenus" or the late Max Roach?! Max, it's a pity that sillyilly was referring to you just so he could shut people's mouths.

[TampaRed]

None of them can syncopate rhythms like Mr Roach could.

[Ramatganski]

That's just total ignorance. ( "syncopate rhythms" - good one!)

Why?! The world has so much to offer! Are you actually interested in drumming, do you love it, is it important to you? If the answer is "no", then for your own sake, don't pretend otherwise! But if the answer is "yes", then start paying attention and listening to it, and for your own sake don't just pretend to.

[Ramatganski]

And I'd better shut up and stop telling people what to do!

[RythmLips]

Awsome. One of my favourite solos. Not Clean (gregmorrow) I don't know what you mean. This is music with a capital M.

[gregmorrow]

professional drummers, please comment on this solo. Maybe I don't understand something..., but I find it to be not clean (to say the least).

[behjoh]

May be you are not used to feel odd meters. It`s a 5/4 solo so is possible you don`t feel the "ding-a-ding-a-ding" thing. Good luck

[gregmorrow]

I'm used to odd meters. My favorite people are: Reinhardt, Coltrane, Dolphy, Mclaughlin, Hancock, Liebman, M-base musicians and many others.

Please, listen to the part at 01:40-01:48 and around 01:30, I don't feel precision in these parts. Also, I would mention the movement of the high-hat at 01:30, which caused a pause. That's what I meant.

I understand them to be imperfections, and I heard similar things in his other performances.

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

Regards,

G. M.

[drummer78]

"Imperfections"....this is about the heart, spirt and soul. I don't know what you mean. Are you sure you listen to Coltrane?

[gregmorrow]

I just checked again,... yes, ...right,... it's Coltrane, John.

You know, when I sing in the shower, I put a lot of heart, spirit and soul into the process, but my wife doesn't appreciate that.

BTW, my question was to PROFESSIONAL DRUMMERS.

[drummer78]

I still have no idea what imperfections you are getting at. I've seen Elvin Jones drop sticks and miss toms in the middle of a solo. Was it "imperfect"? Sure. Did it matter? Not in the least.

[daikke2000]

Superbe !

[behjoh]

Thx