@davidthe1 "but what if the rioters start throwing rocks and molotovs?"
I would consider very sensitively the sociocultural context within which the rioters feel they have to act out in this way, at all times trying to empathize with their concerns. Then I'd send in the tanks and flamethrowers.
That's one long ass flail you got in the middle there 0_o
One thing though, I wonder if people actually think this the kind of hold they would take on the pikes to defend against a cavalry charge?
Because if you do, take a look at where the butt end of the first and second lines of pikes would end up traveling with half a ton of horse propelling it....
@88Kamikaze69 Not if the Phalanx is properly aligned and has enough rows of men. And horses tended to rear up when running into a wall of defenses, throwing themselves and their riders off to the side without throwing their full weight into the spear.
@crapatev That's actually a good idea. You'd need really low voltage prods though, or you end up KOing the rioters and then trampling over them as the cops move towards the retreating rioters.
@joegt123 "You'd need really low voltage prods though, or you end up KOing the rioters "
What?! Are you a liberal or something? No! High-Tension prods. But thank you for bringing the issue to my attention. The pike squares must wear crampons to give them good grip as they climb over the still-twitching bodies of ex-rioters.
@crapatev currently the shield wall is a good enough tactic especially for a simpl reason... only riot shields are REALLY capable of defending a policeofficer against thrown items, and pike length cattle prods is a recipe for disaster, i could easily imagine some nut running and getting near impaled or getting face jabbed by one. the riot shieldwall is a much more passive method, the baton charges (akin to spanish rodeleros with terget and side sword) are the agressive arm of riot control
Kanns sein dass dies der Lanzenblock is der auch jedes Jahr aufs Cave fährt? Immer wieder schön euch bei euren Angriffen in der Feldschlacht zuzusehen.
@ Leberknoedl: würd mich freun, wennst mich mal anschreibst, bin selber jedes Jahr lagernd aufm Cave. Vll kann man sich ja mal zusammenreden.
This is nice. I hope you can put up more video of drills and if possible... reenaction of the application... though that might be asking for too much.
@WolfytheWolf5667 one tactic I read about for infantry against horse was that the infactry form like a "garage" shape for the horse to run into and then be trapped, works against elephants too. The horse will instinctively run into the empty space, to then be surrounded.
Depends. Short spears against heavy cavalry with lances and stirrups tends to end rather gruesome for the spearmen because the lance has a good chance of hitting them before the horse gets close enough. Trying a spearwall with short spears against high medieval knights is more likely than not going to end with the knights crashing through and shattering the formation. You pretty much need long pikes and men drilled well enough to maneuver with them.
@Magni56 Pikemen used Pikes up to 5 or even 6 meters long at Times, and when you ride into a PikeBlock with your lance, you will never be able to stop or turn your Horse in Time to prevent it and you from beeing impaled by the Pikes. Pikemen were not used in Warfare because someone thought they might look good, but because of the Fact they were bloody effective.
@LutzDerLurch Ooops, my bad. After reading you Post over again, noticed that. Sorry for that. I think I've grown simply too accustomed to 80% of Youtube-Commenters using the Words "Spear" and "Pike" synonymously. So my Apollogies for not reading your Post carefully enough in the first Place. :)
But in real life, pike squares would have some men with halberds, pollaxes, voulges, flails etc for when they fought at close range with other infantrymen. So I guess it's a lucky accident.
naja einfach war das abwehren von kavallerieangriffen nicht man bedenke der Langspiess bestand aus holz das heisst der kann einem ganz schön um die Ohren knallen wenn er mal im Pferde steckt. Ja Langwehr (Spiesse) Kurzwehr (Halbarten). Die Langwehr Defensiv oder Offensiv zu nutzen hängt halt sehr vom Charakter ab, z.B. die Schweizer haben die auch voll zum Angriff, einfach gegner überrennen.
i think spear men would be better becouse the can carrey a shield and the can run .pike men have to carrey a 50 pound pike .but pike men can carry a sword though : )
the highlander pikemen didnt have plate armor and they cant carry shields because they need two hands to carry the pike just like a two handed swords man cant carry a shield because you need two hands to carry the sword butt yes i was drunk when i sad a pike is 50 pounds lol
im wondering two things watching this video.. first. why is one guy wielding a long handled morningstar headed flail. and secondly, didnt it occur to people to use a shield in the similar way to the macedonian method. or have a smallish one like a targe that strapped across the forarm, leaving your hand extending past the shields rim allowing you to still grip objects like your pike.
Re: the lack of shields; my reasoning is that for the Macedonians they were mostly of use against missiles (such as persian arrows) rather than opposing pike and sword.
The shield can be held forward with the elbow when the pike is lowered, but when used in a thrusting motion the shield is no longer presented.
Pike formations came back at the same time as gunpower & shot replaced the bow and a shot proof shield would be too heavy to hold out on the forearm.
that said, the macedonian phalangites had both the breastplate, often the bronze version, plus the shield, and the modern pikemansshield even then would be of secondary use in melee once formation broke, or to, when presented, defend against nother pie or similar weapon, say a german landsknect (forgive spelling)
That's true, i suppose the thinking at the time was that if you wanted more protection, you just put on more armour.
The shield had pretty much fallen out of favour. I believe it was only Spanish, Scots and Irish that still used it in any large number, and the last two were thought to be a bit backward.
True, gunpowder & shot replaced the bow, but not over night...
And yes, more armor was better for that...
I mean Harden 1055 or 1065 steel plate or coat of steel plates are much stronger then Bronze plate or scale armor... So there was no big need for shields...
My guess is that they did not use shields so they can move around more? Also the armor at this time was much stronger then what the Greeks or Macedonians ever had (And at the the Greeks & Macedonians the best armor in Earth!)
Harden 1055 steel plate or coat of steel plates are much stronger then Bronze plate or scale armor... So there was no big need of shields...
My first guess for lack of shields would be mobility, both personal and as a unit. The pike drill seems to involve lifting and lowering the pike in a crowd of men, and any additional equipment might get in the way. The extra weight might slow you down. Keep it simple.
Next is practical/economic. If you were going to give your pikemen shields, you would have to pay for them and carry them. The decline of armor was in part because it was too expensive to put the whole army in armor.
Finally, it probably had something to to with military trends. Shield had gone by the wayside due to the improved plate armor, so by the time of these pike formations, the shields you saw were mostly pavises, protecting bowmen and gunners. These were big ungainly things for individuals to carry, and would certainly impede a pike square's mobility. Maybe, then, it simply never entered anyone's mind to give them shields.
For one, pikes weren't fifty pounds. Yes, they were cumbersome, but they didn't weigh near that much. Second, a spear isn't that long. You'd have to be up much closer to get a horseman with your spear, and having a long lance like a horseman would, you wouldn't stand much of a chance. A wall of pikes like this one could easily defend agains an infantry or a cavalry attack, provided they have proper training.
@OberleutnantFalke sure, you make a good point, but Polish hussars carried lances that were longer than any pike. 19 feet+ long. Look it up. They were far more well trained than any shit pikemen division made up of peasants.
@Philly2002 True, Polish hussars had long lances, but they didn't exist (at least, not in their gigantic lance-weilding form) until the 16-1700s. They wouldn't have fought against formations of pike squares like this.
As far as training goes, of course mounted hussars are better trained. It doesn't take much training to be adept with a pike. Not near as much training as a swordsman or cavalryman of this time. But it was these mostly untrained pikemen that dominated cavalry.
@OberleutnantFalke Yes, what you say is correct about not engaging directly, but, I suggest you look up the battle of Kircholm, as well as Klushino. Hussars engaged Swedish pike squares, set up relatively similar to these on the video, and crushed them. Mind you, those pikemen were not as well trained as Adolphus' best troops, but the fact remains that if the tactic was used correctly, pike could easily be handled. A few hundred hussar beat 11,000+ pikemen and other infantry. Hussar > pikeman ;)
@Philly2002 The battle was actually fought primarily between pistol-and-sword armed Swedish cavalry and the Polish hussars. The pikemen (along with a musketeers) where cut off from their cavalry. Then the Swedish cavalry routed through the Swedish infantry, causing a rout. The Poles simply had to ride down the fleeing, demoralized Swedes.
However this video illustrates the skill of Swiss/German pikemen, who where better trained and in some cases fearless (Swiss mainly)
@recon6725 lol.. did you get that straight off of wikipedia or what?
Swedes had one of the most advanced armies at that time, with Adolphus adopting modern tactics before anyone in Switzerland or Germany dreamed of it. Battle details don't count nearly as much as the fact that cavalry owned pike that day, and it wasn't just some crap makeshift Russian or Ukrainian pike infantry.
@Philly2002 But Gustavus Adolphus wasn't king at tis time. Before he took over the Swedes where just ill-disciplined conscripts and their cavalry was severely hampered due to a lack of proper warhorses. So yeah, the Swedes where about the same as carppy mackeshift Russian/Ukranian pike. That's why whe Gustavus implemented his changes he promptly crushed the Poles in several major battles. However the Poles still had far better cavalry.
@Philly2002 Also, even if a Polish cavalryman has a longer weapon, his horse isn't going to charge straight toward a wall of pikes. Maybe close enough for him to try to poke a pikeman, but not close enough to deliver the full potential of a mounted charge with a lance.
@whowantsabighug first of all if you're part of a cavalry formation and you're charging some infantry, you have too many horsemen behind you to your sides to stop immediately. Everybody is at full momentum, if you try to stop you'll be thrown off your horse and probably stampeded if not pushed into the pikes by the horses behind you.. If you are reared off of your hose you're now lying on the ground in front of a large amount of armed men and you're fucked.
@leberknoedl Yeah, pikes did help to end the dominance of heavy cavalry on the battlefield. Those charging horses would often balk at the site of a hedgehog of pikes and men who weren't going anywhere.
The lance/pike is set on the ground = one foot on the end. A running horse impales himself and the rider, pushing the lance even harder into the ground. The pikemen doesent have hold thewaight of the lance at all. He only has to aim it on the rider. One lance may breake, but not the other 20 arround.
the lance doesnt have to break, the guy will be pushed back or the horse will run into him, these pikeman aren't puttin their pikes in the ground anyways
Well, in fact they dont train the defence against horses. They train the attac/defense against other infantry. A cavelry charge only can be stopped by lances fixed/rammed into the ground.. Look for videos like "Weapons that made britain" - The Lance. There they show how lances were used against cavelry charges (rammed into the ground)
Actully horses are, quite surprisingly, very reluctant to run head long into a bristling mass of spears and will usaly shy away before impact, halting the charge;
Then its more a case of aiming for the rider than the animal.
A horse tends to have some sense of self-preservation, though, and will generally be rather hesistant to sucidally charge into a wall of pikes. And with several pikes and ranks of men behind the guys holding them, the entire formation is rather surprisingly hard to break through.
@CruelSculpture : You wouldn't be compacted like this if horses were charging. This would be more is infantry was charging you. If you're being attacked by cavalry then you could form into columns, letting them pass through.
@Halofreakanoid Not true necessarily. Unless wearing blinders, a horse will not charge into a phalanx, they will try to turn away. Besides, although parting into columns might have worked against Carthaginian war elephants, horse cavalry would tear up the formation.
@Halofreakanoid Wrong. No horse will charge a line of pikes, it will pull up and throw the rider or turn to the sides. That is why spears and pikes were so effective and were used on the flanks of every medieval army. Staying tightly compacted is actually what was done, so as to create a body mass that was harder to push through in the case of a charge. People spread out can not hold back the sheer weight of a cavalry charge.
@akanaaz : It all depends on the country that's fighting, as many different countries had many different ways to deal with combat situations. I'm not saying that forming columns is the best strategy, but it is one.
@Halofreakanoid True, it does. This is seemingly European, which is a very broad category I know. The truth is though, Pikes and Heavy Spears were hugely effective against cavalry. Austria and the Swiss were both famous for their pikemen, which was something that rather angered the other nations who used Knights on horseback as the driving point of their army. Common citizens who drilled constantly and used heavy pikes tore up knights on a consistent basis.
@akanaaz : Right, most people don't realize that the spear and pike is both a cost effective and a combat effective weapon, especially in a formation like this. Some of the only weaknesses to the formation include archers and plated knights on foot (assuming they have shields and actually know how to parry a spear, which I'm assuming a Knight would know).
Almost anything other than that can get taken down by the formation.
@Halofreakanoid my response is a bit late, but yes, I agree. When Knights got off their high horse, literally, we saw them wreck havoc on other foot formations. Without the speed and weight of the charge to help the pike penetrate plate, the pike can be rendered near useless. A pike is very heavy, clumsy and not at all useful in close quarters. The dismounted knights would take some losses on the initial contact, but then it would just be a one sided slaughter, with pikes being eaten alive
@akanaaz : Exactly. All they'd have to do is ride the horses to the pikes, then jump off and engage, assuming that them continuing to be cavarly unites was uneeded. I completely agree.
@failtolawl You sir are beyond fucking stupid. Pike men were a vital asset in any army because they stopped ANY form of charge no matter the number. And if the general of that said army was smart enough to bring along some longbow men as a softener for heavy cavalry, that makes pike men twice as effective.
Those guys must be reenacting all the various drills that the famed, fearsome and feared German/Dutch Landsknechtes practiced back during the late 15th till the late 16th centuries. For the fierce & highly trained Landsknechtes were no doubt, along with the even more ferocious Swiss, the deadliest & most formidable pike force on the planet for roughly 100 years! For when arrayed in their superbly drilled & cohesive pike, or "hedgehog," squares, those motherfuckers were pretty tough to beat!
May I ask what your are screaming. I seem to hear something like Gewehren auf/ ab ect. But this seems strange since gewehren are rifles.
What are you exactly screaming? Thanks. Our group is attempting to do something similar with spears (were a 13th century group) and use French Commands.
No gewehren are not Rifles. (Ge)Wehr means fighting defence. So a Gewehren ist something you used to defence yourself. But you´re right in the modern time the expression Gewehr ist mostly used for Guns cuz you mostly u se guns to defend yourself(from linguistical view).
And of course Gewehr means rifle, like Maschinenpistole means machinepistol.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
haha, they can't even hold a pike right! And im not wrong because my uncle told me and hes a medieval discoverer who tell people how wepons wer used years ago..
@davidthe1 Lol Molotovs is from 20. century.
oxis77gas 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@davidthe1 "but what if the rioters start throwing rocks and molotovs?"
I would consider very sensitively the sociocultural context within which the rioters feel they have to act out in this way, at all times trying to empathize with their concerns. Then I'd send in the tanks and flamethrowers.
crapatev 2 months ago
Those top pikes arent gonna kill anything lol
xaxie1 2 months ago
@xaxie1 Nope, but they acted as protection from arrow fire.
WebOnion 2 months ago
Anybody else thought they heard them chanting 'get on with it!' at a couple of points?
Virgil0211 2 months ago
Not better then the spartans
abcdef129ful 2 months ago
You know, I don't think this block formation tactic is going to be very effective considering that the weapons are of different lengths.
Punishthefalse 3 months ago
That's one long ass flail you got in the middle there 0_o
One thing though, I wonder if people actually think this the kind of hold they would take on the pikes to defend against a cavalry charge?
Because if you do, take a look at where the butt end of the first and second lines of pikes would end up traveling with half a ton of horse propelling it....
88Kamikaze69 4 months ago
@88Kamikaze69 Not if the Phalanx is properly aligned and has enough rows of men. And horses tended to rear up when running into a wall of defenses, throwing themselves and their riders off to the side without throwing their full weight into the spear.
joegt123 3 months ago
@joegt123
So you dont think they'd simply place the butt end of the pike in the ground for a horse charge?
I
88Kamikaze69 3 months ago
I laughed my ass of when I saw the flail! XD
Shard37 4 months ago
My answer to riot control:
pike squares (tercios) armed with pike-length cattle prods
& some embedded "musketeers" (for plastic/rubber bullet and tear gas).
Result: very unsuccessful riots.
crapatev 4 months ago 25
@crapatev That's actually a good idea. You'd need really low voltage prods though, or you end up KOing the rioters and then trampling over them as the cops move towards the retreating rioters.
joegt123 3 months ago
@joegt123 "You'd need really low voltage prods though, or you end up KOing the rioters "
What?! Are you a liberal or something? No! High-Tension prods. But thank you for bringing the issue to my attention. The pike squares must wear crampons to give them good grip as they climb over the still-twitching bodies of ex-rioters.
crapatev 3 months ago
@crapatev Oh so you want the police to get fucking sued to shit when 20 cops run over 5 unconscious people and break several of their ribs?
You're a retard.
joegt123 3 months ago
@joegt123 "You're a retard."
LMAO ... you think my first post was serious?!?!
crapatev 3 months ago
@crapatev
Still.. your comment should not be taken seriously and I for one don't think it was funny..
Dimitri0809 1 month ago
@Dimitri0809 Thanks for letting me know {rolls eyes}
crapatev 4 weeks ago
@crapatev currently the shield wall is a good enough tactic especially for a simpl reason... only riot shields are REALLY capable of defending a policeofficer against thrown items, and pike length cattle prods is a recipe for disaster, i could easily imagine some nut running and getting near impaled or getting face jabbed by one. the riot shieldwall is a much more passive method, the baton charges (akin to spanish rodeleros with terget and side sword) are the agressive arm of riot control
elgostine 1 month ago
@crapatev until it is copied and supplied with shield walls :P
EmilReiko 3 weeks ago
Kanns sein dass dies der Lanzenblock is der auch jedes Jahr aufs Cave fährt? Immer wieder schön euch bei euren Angriffen in der Feldschlacht zuzusehen.
@ Leberknoedl: würd mich freun, wennst mich mal anschreibst, bin selber jedes Jahr lagernd aufm Cave. Vll kann man sich ja mal zusammenreden.
Bluebu88 7 months ago
Zum Angriff! I'm gonna go to wal-mart, steal a broom from the janitor and do this
Thrawn6211 8 months ago
these reanactors watch to many movies... no offense
MrMeineNamen 8 months ago
This is nice. I hope you can put up more video of drills and if possible... reenaction of the application... though that might be asking for too much.
D04S02B04 8 months ago
lol That flail looks so awkward by itself.
LotusDragon09 9 months ago
did i see a spear with a flail on it D: ? thats... err pretty unusual
demoniccheesepuff 9 months ago
WTF?! I''ve never seen a flail on the end of a pike before... that just seems unwieldy
IIGECKOII 10 months ago
I'd hate to charge that.
FrisianDude 11 months ago
i love this it look kinda like a masedonian falanx :) loov this ^^
lovestarwarsechobase 1 year ago
TERCIOS ESPAÑOLES COMO NINGUNO.
SniperPatriot93 1 year ago
I was wondering why the flail didn't have more spikes on it ?, it must be the training version.
whatzupa 1 year ago
EPIC FLAIL!!!!! XD
(You better read that carefully!)
VorpalDrake 1 year ago
@VorpalDrake i LOL´d
andreasahammer 1 year ago
@VorpalDrake ha, good one
DerOrk 1 year ago
failtolawl:
A simple wooden hand-made Spear could stop a horse.
If you are in a phalanx, never rush at it otherwise, you better write your will quickly.
WolfytheWolf5667 1 year ago
@WolfytheWolf5667 one tactic I read about for infantry against horse was that the infactry form like a "garage" shape for the horse to run into and then be trapped, works against elephants too. The horse will instinctively run into the empty space, to then be surrounded.
whatzupa 1 year ago
@WolfytheWolf5667
Depends. Short spears against heavy cavalry with lances and stirrups tends to end rather gruesome for the spearmen because the lance has a good chance of hitting them before the horse gets close enough. Trying a spearwall with short spears against high medieval knights is more likely than not going to end with the knights crashing through and shattering the formation. You pretty much need long pikes and men drilled well enough to maneuver with them.
Magni56 1 year ago
@Magni56 Pikemen used Pikes up to 5 or even 6 meters long at Times, and when you ride into a PikeBlock with your lance, you will never be able to stop or turn your Horse in Time to prevent it and you from beeing impaled by the Pikes. Pikemen were not used in Warfare because someone thought they might look good, but because of the Fact they were bloody effective.
LutzDerLurch 1 year ago
@LutzDerLurch
That's exactly what I said? Note how I made a distinction between shorter spears and pikes. Especially that last sentence.
Magni56 1 year ago
@LutzDerLurch Ooops, my bad. After reading you Post over again, noticed that. Sorry for that. I think I've grown simply too accustomed to 80% of Youtube-Commenters using the Words "Spear" and "Pike" synonymously. So my Apollogies for not reading your Post carefully enough in the first Place. :)
LutzDerLurch 1 year ago
Nice. You might consider having a command to ground the pikes and place your feet on the grounded end to repel cavalry.
lebarosky 1 year ago
Uruk hai training
Veerwhil 1 year ago
just to tell you all wondering:
there is a Flail, because we just didn´t have enough Pikes etc... ;)
leberknoedl 1 year ago 43
@leberknoedl
But in real life, pike squares would have some men with halberds, pollaxes, voulges, flails etc for when they fought at close range with other infantrymen. So I guess it's a lucky accident.
Thrawn369 1 year ago
@leberknoedl Haha, I loved the flails and pollaxes and something that looked like a voulge in the group. :p
FrisianDude 1 year ago
@leberknoedl
The flail guy is so rad. I would be that guy.
WCdragoninja 10 months ago
@leberknoedl I can understand spears, halberds and pollaxes in a pike formation, but that flail just made me laugh. .
Aserox 5 months ago
lol at the one pick with a ball and chain attached to it
Treifla 1 year ago
lets see you try this against land whales.
i have a 12 foot pike in my trousers.
mittROMNEY666 1 year ago
naja einfach war das abwehren von kavallerieangriffen nicht man bedenke der Langspiess bestand aus holz das heisst der kann einem ganz schön um die Ohren knallen wenn er mal im Pferde steckt. Ja Langwehr (Spiesse) Kurzwehr (Halbarten). Die Langwehr Defensiv oder Offensiv zu nutzen hängt halt sehr vom Charakter ab, z.B. die Schweizer haben die auch voll zum Angriff, einfach gegner überrennen.
dillastone 1 year ago
ah... this is great
i fence too...
it's really nice to learn about the old times
and how hard it is to fight in an war
Metalvidvid 2 years ago
good work guys...
ceskakorouhev 2 years ago
wtf
fuckamerica109 2 years ago
do u guys know how hard its to move a long as pike like that?jezz thats sht is slow as fuck
rice0boy0 2 years ago
wow...brutal el videito
munecagitana 2 years ago
And kids this is the number one reason why a Europe could not be conquered!
255Knights 2 years ago 2
i think spear men would be better becouse the can carrey a shield and the can run .pike men have to carrey a 50 pound pike .but pike men can carry a sword though : )
MrBrian987987 2 years ago
all you are saying is you like the small spear better and that you don't like haveing lots of friends when fighting
kokofan50 2 years ago 2
Pikes are not 50 lbs, they are about 7 lbs or so. Also, it may be good to have a shield, but they do not need it do to plate armor.
255Knights 2 years ago
the highlander pikemen didnt have plate armor and they cant carry shields because they need two hands to carry the pike just like a two handed swords man cant carry a shield because you need two hands to carry the sword butt yes i was drunk when i sad a pike is 50 pounds lol
MrBrian987987 2 years ago
The highlander pike men were not the best then... A respectable force of pike men had Plate armor
255Knights 2 years ago
im wondering two things watching this video.. first. why is one guy wielding a long handled morningstar headed flail. and secondly, didnt it occur to people to use a shield in the similar way to the macedonian method. or have a smallish one like a targe that strapped across the forarm, leaving your hand extending past the shields rim allowing you to still grip objects like your pike.
elgostine 2 years ago
Re: the lack of shields; my reasoning is that for the Macedonians they were mostly of use against missiles (such as persian arrows) rather than opposing pike and sword.
The shield can be held forward with the elbow when the pike is lowered, but when used in a thrusting motion the shield is no longer presented.
Pike formations came back at the same time as gunpower & shot replaced the bow and a shot proof shield would be too heavy to hold out on the forearm.
Easier to have a proof breastplate
Divertedflight 2 years ago
that said, the macedonian phalangites had both the breastplate, often the bronze version, plus the shield, and the modern pikemansshield even then would be of secondary use in melee once formation broke, or to, when presented, defend against nother pie or similar weapon, say a german landsknect (forgive spelling)
elgostine 2 years ago
That's true, i suppose the thinking at the time was that if you wanted more protection, you just put on more armour.
The shield had pretty much fallen out of favour. I believe it was only Spanish, Scots and Irish that still used it in any large number, and the last two were thought to be a bit backward.
Divertedflight 2 years ago
I would not call the Spanish Tercios backwards...
255Knights 2 years ago
True, gunpowder & shot replaced the bow, but not over night...
And yes, more armor was better for that...
I mean Harden 1055 or 1065 steel plate or coat of steel plates are much stronger then Bronze plate or scale armor... So there was no big need for shields...
255Knights 2 years ago
My guess is that they did not use shields so they can move around more? Also the armor at this time was much stronger then what the Greeks or Macedonians ever had (And at the the Greeks & Macedonians the best armor in Earth!)
Harden 1055 steel plate or coat of steel plates are much stronger then Bronze plate or scale armor... So there was no big need of shields...
255Knights 2 years ago
I meant that the Greeks & Macedonians the best armor in Earth at the time...
255Knights 2 years ago
My first guess for lack of shields would be mobility, both personal and as a unit. The pike drill seems to involve lifting and lowering the pike in a crowd of men, and any additional equipment might get in the way. The extra weight might slow you down. Keep it simple.
Next is practical/economic. If you were going to give your pikemen shields, you would have to pay for them and carry them. The decline of armor was in part because it was too expensive to put the whole army in armor.
CZRedemption 1 year ago
Finally, it probably had something to to with military trends. Shield had gone by the wayside due to the improved plate armor, so by the time of these pike formations, the shields you saw were mostly pavises, protecting bowmen and gunners. These were big ungainly things for individuals to carry, and would certainly impede a pike square's mobility. Maybe, then, it simply never entered anyone's mind to give them shields.
CZRedemption 1 year ago
@CZRedemption you would need to be super human to use pike and shield at same time
sewagedweller 1 year ago
For one, pikes weren't fifty pounds. Yes, they were cumbersome, but they didn't weigh near that much. Second, a spear isn't that long. You'd have to be up much closer to get a horseman with your spear, and having a long lance like a horseman would, you wouldn't stand much of a chance. A wall of pikes like this one could easily defend agains an infantry or a cavalry attack, provided they have proper training.
OberleutnantFalke 2 years ago 3
@OberleutnantFalke sure, you make a good point, but Polish hussars carried lances that were longer than any pike. 19 feet+ long. Look it up. They were far more well trained than any shit pikemen division made up of peasants.
Philly2002 1 year ago
@Philly2002 True, Polish hussars had long lances, but they didn't exist (at least, not in their gigantic lance-weilding form) until the 16-1700s. They wouldn't have fought against formations of pike squares like this.
As far as training goes, of course mounted hussars are better trained. It doesn't take much training to be adept with a pike. Not near as much training as a swordsman or cavalryman of this time. But it was these mostly untrained pikemen that dominated cavalry.
OberleutnantFalke 1 year ago
@OberleutnantFalke Yes, what you say is correct about not engaging directly, but, I suggest you look up the battle of Kircholm, as well as Klushino. Hussars engaged Swedish pike squares, set up relatively similar to these on the video, and crushed them. Mind you, those pikemen were not as well trained as Adolphus' best troops, but the fact remains that if the tactic was used correctly, pike could easily be handled. A few hundred hussar beat 11,000+ pikemen and other infantry. Hussar > pikeman ;)
Philly2002 1 year ago
@Philly2002 The battle was actually fought primarily between pistol-and-sword armed Swedish cavalry and the Polish hussars. The pikemen (along with a musketeers) where cut off from their cavalry. Then the Swedish cavalry routed through the Swedish infantry, causing a rout. The Poles simply had to ride down the fleeing, demoralized Swedes.
However this video illustrates the skill of Swiss/German pikemen, who where better trained and in some cases fearless (Swiss mainly)
recon6725 1 year ago
@recon6725 lol.. did you get that straight off of wikipedia or what?
Swedes had one of the most advanced armies at that time, with Adolphus adopting modern tactics before anyone in Switzerland or Germany dreamed of it. Battle details don't count nearly as much as the fact that cavalry owned pike that day, and it wasn't just some crap makeshift Russian or Ukrainian pike infantry.
Philly2002 1 year ago
@Philly2002 But Gustavus Adolphus wasn't king at tis time. Before he took over the Swedes where just ill-disciplined conscripts and their cavalry was severely hampered due to a lack of proper warhorses. So yeah, the Swedes where about the same as carppy mackeshift Russian/Ukranian pike. That's why whe Gustavus implemented his changes he promptly crushed the Poles in several major battles. However the Poles still had far better cavalry.
Also take into acount the pike to shot ratio.
recon6725 1 year ago
@Philly2002 Also, even if a Polish cavalryman has a longer weapon, his horse isn't going to charge straight toward a wall of pikes. Maybe close enough for him to try to poke a pikeman, but not close enough to deliver the full potential of a mounted charge with a lance.
OberleutnantFalke 1 year ago
@OberleutnantFalke
except a polish hussars attack...
kamikaziu 1 year ago
Fail: Flamands from Courtrai, and Scots of Wallace disagree with you :P
realFurby 2 years ago
Comment removed
failtolawl 2 years ago
sure, sure Mr. Wiseguy.... Just ask the austrian forces that fought at Sempach and the Morgarten... bodycount 2000:12
leberknoedl 2 years ago 22
these horses are going 30 +, the horse would run into the spear, die, and have so much force that it keeps going.
failtolawl 2 years ago
no because the horse would probably bolt from the pain before it dies so it would slow down
whowantsabighug 2 years ago
@whowantsabighug first of all if you're part of a cavalry formation and you're charging some infantry, you have too many horsemen behind you to your sides to stop immediately. Everybody is at full momentum, if you try to stop you'll be thrown off your horse and probably stampeded if not pushed into the pikes by the horses behind you.. If you are reared off of your hose you're now lying on the ground in front of a large amount of armed men and you're fucked.
KoolDudester 2 years ago
@leberknoedl Yeah, pikes did help to end the dominance of heavy cavalry on the battlefield. Those charging horses would often balk at the site of a hedgehog of pikes and men who weren't going anywhere.
colddrake80 1 year ago
@leberknoedl Failtolawl is a retard. Without pikemen/men with polearms cavalry would run amuck.
Cstrife234 1 year ago
@Cstrife234 yeah they are the nightmare for mounted unit
MrSolitude14 1 year ago
@leberknoedl Leberknoedl, it is not worth the Effort, so many Armchair Generals on YT.... :)
LutzDerLurch 1 year ago
The lance/pike is set on the ground = one foot on the end. A running horse impales himself and the rider, pushing the lance even harder into the ground. The pikemen doesent have hold thewaight of the lance at all. He only has to aim it on the rider. One lance may breake, but not the other 20 arround.
bowman2061 2 years ago
the lance doesnt have to break, the guy will be pushed back or the horse will run into him, these pikeman aren't puttin their pikes in the ground anyways
failtolawl 2 years ago
Well, in fact they dont train the defence against horses. They train the attac/defense against other infantry. A cavelry charge only can be stopped by lances fixed/rammed into the ground.. Look for videos like "Weapons that made britain" - The Lance. There they show how lances were used against cavelry charges (rammed into the ground)
bowman2061 2 years ago
Actully horses are, quite surprisingly, very reluctant to run head long into a bristling mass of spears and will usaly shy away before impact, halting the charge;
Then its more a case of aiming for the rider than the animal.
MidnighWolf 2 years ago 2
@failtolawl If pikes were so stupid, then why were they the common weapon for thousands of years?
TheKNH86 1 year ago
@TheKNH86 because of the religious power for 1000's of years, everybody was stupid back then.
failtolawl 1 year ago
@failtolawl
A horse tends to have some sense of self-preservation, though, and will generally be rather hesistant to sucidally charge into a wall of pikes. And with several pikes and ranks of men behind the guys holding them, the entire formation is rather surprisingly hard to break through.
Magni56 1 year ago
@failtolawl : Except that they aim for the soldier on the horse, and let the horse ride by them. Idiot.
Halofreakanoid 11 months ago
@Halofreakanoid How can you let a line of armoured horses ride by you when you are compacted like this?
CruelSculpture 11 months ago
@CruelSculpture : You wouldn't be compacted like this if horses were charging. This would be more is infantry was charging you. If you're being attacked by cavalry then you could form into columns, letting them pass through.
Halofreakanoid 11 months ago
@Halofreakanoid Not true necessarily. Unless wearing blinders, a horse will not charge into a phalanx, they will try to turn away. Besides, although parting into columns might have worked against Carthaginian war elephants, horse cavalry would tear up the formation.
IIGECKOII 10 months ago
@Halofreakanoid Wrong. No horse will charge a line of pikes, it will pull up and throw the rider or turn to the sides. That is why spears and pikes were so effective and were used on the flanks of every medieval army. Staying tightly compacted is actually what was done, so as to create a body mass that was harder to push through in the case of a charge. People spread out can not hold back the sheer weight of a cavalry charge.
akanaaz 8 months ago
@akanaaz : It all depends on the country that's fighting, as many different countries had many different ways to deal with combat situations. I'm not saying that forming columns is the best strategy, but it is one.
Halofreakanoid 8 months ago
@Halofreakanoid True, it does. This is seemingly European, which is a very broad category I know. The truth is though, Pikes and Heavy Spears were hugely effective against cavalry. Austria and the Swiss were both famous for their pikemen, which was something that rather angered the other nations who used Knights on horseback as the driving point of their army. Common citizens who drilled constantly and used heavy pikes tore up knights on a consistent basis.
akanaaz 8 months ago
@akanaaz : Right, most people don't realize that the spear and pike is both a cost effective and a combat effective weapon, especially in a formation like this. Some of the only weaknesses to the formation include archers and plated knights on foot (assuming they have shields and actually know how to parry a spear, which I'm assuming a Knight would know).
Almost anything other than that can get taken down by the formation.
Halofreakanoid 8 months ago
@Halofreakanoid my response is a bit late, but yes, I agree. When Knights got off their high horse, literally, we saw them wreck havoc on other foot formations. Without the speed and weight of the charge to help the pike penetrate plate, the pike can be rendered near useless. A pike is very heavy, clumsy and not at all useful in close quarters. The dismounted knights would take some losses on the initial contact, but then it would just be a one sided slaughter, with pikes being eaten alive
akanaaz 5 months ago
@akanaaz : Exactly. All they'd have to do is ride the horses to the pikes, then jump off and engage, assuming that them continuing to be cavarly unites was uneeded. I completely agree.
Halofreakanoid 5 months ago
@akanaaz Thus why pike formations often incorporated halberds, short-spears and pollaxes to give them a greater diversity and flexibility in battle.
Aserox 5 months ago
@failtolawl You sir are beyond fucking stupid. Pike men were a vital asset in any army because they stopped ANY form of charge no matter the number. And if the general of that said army was smart enough to bring along some longbow men as a softener for heavy cavalry, that makes pike men twice as effective.
AmrasTalarom 11 months ago
Those guys must be reenacting all the various drills that the famed, fearsome and feared German/Dutch Landsknechtes practiced back during the late 15th till the late 16th centuries. For the fierce & highly trained Landsknechtes were no doubt, along with the even more ferocious Swiss, the deadliest & most formidable pike force on the planet for roughly 100 years! For when arrayed in their superbly drilled & cohesive pike, or "hedgehog," squares, those motherfuckers were pretty tough to beat!
sxlfkta 2 years ago
moar!
psyclog 2 years ago
nice! i'm leading a pike line too and this will be quite an inspiration for all the new guys!
gothicmarine 2 years ago
May I ask what your are screaming. I seem to hear something like Gewehren auf/ ab ect. But this seems strange since gewehren are rifles.
What are you exactly screaming? Thanks. Our group is attempting to do something similar with spears (were a 13th century group) and use French Commands.
Your group looks pretty impressive :)
ArtiKard 2 years ago
First we´re not one Group, but some groups together.
The commands are:
Aufgemerkt: Attention
Die Wehr zum Angriff: The Weapon to attack
Die Wehren auf: The Weapons up
Die Wehren ab: The Weapons down
leberknoedl 2 years ago
No gewehren are not Rifles. (Ge)Wehr means fighting defence. So a Gewehren ist something you used to defence yourself. But you´re right in the modern time the expression Gewehr ist mostly used for Guns cuz you mostly u se guns to defend yourself(from linguistical view).
And of course Gewehr means rifle, like Maschinenpistole means machinepistol.
justindustin88 2 years ago
No, Wehr is just Weapon in German and doesn´t carry the intention of defensive weaponary.
Gewehr ist the modern german term for a rifle e.g. hunting rifles.
leberknoedl 2 years ago
Aber Wehr hat doch eher eine verteidigende Bedeutung, man muss sich ja gegen etwas zur wehr setzen(Angreifer)
justindustin88 2 years ago
Ja, aber eine Definition mit fighting defence würde "Rüstung" bedeuten. Schilder und Rüstteile sind defensive weapons....
leberknoedl 2 years ago
heh kinda funny how they all don't have the same weapons, did i see a flail? why would you point a flail at someone?
Juticar 2 years ago
Because it´s a exercise and not we didn´t have enough blunt pikes for all....
leberknoedl 2 years ago
toll gemacht! wir wollen mehr!
mcsrak 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
haha, they can't even hold a pike right! And im not wrong because my uncle told me and hes a medieval discoverer who tell people how wepons wer used years ago..
WarBeanz 2 years ago
:D yeah, right . We all believe you.
Merlkir 2 years ago 5
Well that's kinda the point.
ligonater 2 years ago
Gut!
Wünschte man würde mehr Drill der Landskneckte sehen. Hoffe da kommt noch mal was :-)
ErikTributsch 3 years ago
Very nice!
Demarkil 3 years ago
mehr bitte! :-)
Pathtith 3 years ago
lol, what satisfacted screaming. Oo
Wishmaster616 3 years ago
Nice! Show us more.
Rivenshield 3 years ago
No, I don't think I'd like to charge a horse into that.
MattABryant 3 years ago