He does reveal himself in this world . If you must see to believe the Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe is proof . Blood boils every year in Italy . Fatima had over 70K
witnesses many were like you and there were Freemasons and Protestants most converted .
for the record i am an Atheist. Your argument has only 1 hole and it is one that I would expect a Christian to use. You see Christians typically think of this world as a test in which we choose to either follow God or Satan. Yes if god truly loved us then he should make his existence more believable, but can you argue your point against me as if i were a Christian? Anyone who is reading this comment (and I don’t care how long it will be until somebody does) is welcome to respond :)
@TheMagicSandwichist But why would god give people the will to choose, ie. the will to 'choose' the 'wrong path', if he could have made the beings and their surroundings such that they could not possibly make decisions that would lead them to hell?
Satan could not intervene because, after all, God is all powerful and Satan is not.
God invented Hell, Satan, and sin.
Why would an all powerful being curse the human race that he apparently loves?
@MrWafflesMonster If i were a Christian i would say: because this world is a test and we need to make that conscience choice to accept God. He gave us that choice.
I could lock someone in my basement and convince myself and them that it is a loving relationship. It is much more rewarding to ACHIEVE a relationship. The "it's not necessary" argument is meaningless unless we know the end result.
@bootlegpreacher what kind of relationship starts with 'I'm perfect, you're not. Obey me or die'? A very abusive one at best.
I could put you through severe "Saw"-like tests of character. You would suffer, but would you love me?
Why would anyone love their torturer other than Stockholm Syndrome? Is that Yahwe's perfect plan, by making us so dependable on him that his every indifferent sigh in between slaughters equals a passionate decree of mercy?
My 2 year old was running away from me in a parking lot. Fortunately she was fearful enough of what I would do when I yelled "STOP". She was about to run in front of a car that was backing out. Her choices were essentially "obey me or (quite possibly) die". Is that abusive?
My baby girl had to take some nasty medicine for the last couple weeks that hurt her stomach and gave her a bad rash. She sure thought I was torturing her. She can't comprehend why this had to be done.
@bootlegpreacher I get that. I really do. Your parents did the same thing raising you. Except you're an adult now. And God wants you to kill other adults. Obey or die.
You're missing the point of what I was saying. I get that you think of God as this divine daddy that wants to protect and keep you safe. It's a nice security blanket.
The difference being, which is the crux of what I was saying, is that your dad had yóur best interest in mind. God has his own interest in mind. (contd)
@viridismonasteriense To part 1: how do you know that's all God has in mind? My daughter didn't know that. She probably felt like I was just trying to control her.
I don't doubt your daughter knows exactly what will happen when a speeding car hits her. It doesn't take her father to tell her that. Pain=bad is the simplest and earliest lesson a human being learns. (If they don't have CIPA disorder that is, or are born Mr Slave from South Park)
@bootlegpreacher And if in this example you are the kid and God is the father and you're running towards the car, you must bear in mind that God made you capable of running, God made you want to run, God made the bits of the car heading towards you, God made it what it is, God made its driver drive towards you, God made the driver look away: God set the entire moment up and then he tells you: Obey or I will let that car hit you. I will make it hit you. And if it hits...you deserve it?
@viridismonasteriense To part 2: I'm not sure "make it hit you" is the only way to look at it. Darkness is merely the absence of light. It doesn't need to be made or created. This would also suggest that God isn't just in it for the control.
Does a child ever deserve to be hit by a car? I hate to think so, still I punish her consistently for small things and was thus able to avoid this big catastrophe. If you want to know why bad things happen to good people, all I can say is, I don't know yet
"still I punish her consistently for small things and was thus able to avoid this big catastrophe. "
So wait, did you punish her for listening to you? What?! Is it ever good enough? Hit by car, pain/punishment, or obeying you, punishment. Quite the incentive to listen to you.
So because she was wrong for running in the first place you punish her. She's a child! She didn't know. (contd)
@bootlegpreacher (contd) My little sister did the same once, running off across the street not looking and almost got hit. I yelled, she listened when it was already too late (meaning she was standing at the exact spot in the middle of the road I did NOT want her to be, talk about irony) but luckily the driver saw her coming and stopped.
I explained to her why she scared me, why she shouldn't do that and what would happen if she did it again.
@bootlegpreacher The 4-year old even berated me once for not stopping and looking. when we were cycling to her school. Kept me on my toes and kept me doing the right thing and giving the right example. Ha.
@bootlegpreacher Sorry if I'm crowding your inbox, but I had to respond to this as well, after trying to decipher it for a minute:
"I'm not sure "make it hit you" is the only way to look at it. Darkness is merely the absence of light."
It's usually said that God has a plan for 'us'. A purpose. A 'design'. 'Destiny'. In the Bible it says he decides who dies when. You can't claim this God is omnopotent, omnipresent, controls and created everything and then claim that he is absent there!
@bootlegpreacher "I'm not sure "make it hit you" is the only way to look at it."
Aha. So you admit that it is a way to look at it. That's what I always find so annoying about Bible-fundies. Confronted with a violent passage about slaughter or slavery and they claim context makes it okay. You just have to tilt your head and suddenly the Escher painting first seen as a bloody carnage turns into a peaceful meadow.
Hitler loved animals and was anti-smoking, but does that make his crimes okay?
@viridismonasteriense "Hitler loved animals (...) but does that make his crimes okay?"
Let me expand on that. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing for Germany. He had a grand scheme in mind for Europe. Does that make his crimes okay? No.
So if God has an ultimate goal in mind for us with all the right intentions, a goal so good and righteous, would that suddenly make the required mass suffering okay? (btw Mother Theresa even thought suffering was an integral part of worship!)
"If you want to know why bad things happen to good people, all I can say is, I don't know yet"
Why do good things happen to bad people?
You assume God is "light" and "good" and when confronted with suffering in this world you say "I don't know why he would let or cause it to happen". If God is real, all we know for sure is that he *does* let it happen. People die in car crashes every single day. Ask yourself, what kind of a masterplan requires mass suffering?
4 noble gasses were created. It's not possible for that which is incorruptible/Glorified to sin or be punished. 5 1/2 billion years of evolution has taught us a lot. You should try reconciling your faith or lack with Quantum Physics. Did you know that scientists have discovered anit-matter and made black holes since you uploaded this. Your views are ancient atheist rhetoric, you have no knowledge of perfection or the meaning of the words you're using. Go back and get your GED & go to college.
lol, all these atheist liberal channels troll youtube looking for conservatives Christians to harass. Very pathetic but i guess youtube is the only place people will listen to your bullshit
there is no sin in heaven because when you get to heaven everything is not a sin anymore is what I think.. which is why in some religions they happen to talk about you getting many virgins and stuff in heaven there is NO sin in heaven... you don't have to get virgins it's up to you.. but if you did go to heaven you probably never had sex anyway...
what is the difference between logic and lack of foolishness.. because the bible does say that God doesn't like fools but at the same time he talks bad about scribes and pharisees which I would presume are actually the smart people of that time..
let us say the world is perfect.. for the world to be perfect.. for something to be perfect.. shouldn't it also be experienced..??? Something is not trully perfect unless it experiences imperfection first.. or a degree of disturbance which it casts aside .. and pride cannot exist.. for God is a proud God he is proud of himself.. he is Jealous .. he likes being God he wants us all to Know he's God .. yes why can't God reveal himself in this world.. maybe he does but in a complex manner..
if God were real there could be suffering in the world because in the bible it says do not be too good or too evil lest you destroy yourself.. what does this mean if God has a world that is too perfect it will be destroyed?? Kinda makes sense.. if everyone was perfectly friendly to the devil I guess he would destroy it..
IF these were real they might be I don't really know..
To all atheists, debating christians is pointless, as logic is most commonly used in debate and logic is of the devil and an abomination unto the lord, The bible is self refuting.
This video really is pointless; the fact that something is "unnecessary" doesn't mean it can't exist. (After all, people's belief in monotheism exists!) This argument doesn't really say that Christianity or YVWH is wrong at all, it just says that YVWH did whet he wanted if he exists. Also, most media involving a Christian view (whether parody, parody by Christians, or movies that are supposed to represent "reality"),, when God talks about people and such, he talks as though heaven was
already there, or as though he comes from heaven. Even in shows about other religious aspects but with Christian influence, such as Charmed ("Elders" in a "heaven"-like place), this can be seen.
God is allmighty in the realm of that what is possible, or what makes sense. He cant make a thing that has 2 opposite properties at the same time.
If a creature has its own will, God can't make it that this being listens to Gods will and his own will at the same time, God cant do that, its impossible.
good objection, my answer would be that people in heaven dont have free will ( or they have diminished freedom) but they have decided to give up their free will for higher things.
Like someone who is married , he voluntarily diminishes his right to have sex with anyone.
They say the biggest act of freedom is to let it go.
But this objection also has problems because i personally think there is no such thing as free will, not at least they way most people define it.
Also,-- I just realized this and don't remember if you mention it in the video-- but isn't our existence completely unnecessary if the Christian god exists?
Our existence would be completely unnecessary and unwarranted because God would have known EXACTLY what every person to ever exist would do and whether or not they deserve to go to heaven or hell even BEFORE He/She/It/They/Sklee created them.
@1:30 to 1:35 ...where is your evidence for this statement?? So now you believe in God and making up delusional facts about God????
seriously.....You fucked up there dude. I catch statements like this all the time when I'm watching atheist videos. It's like half the time they believe in God and just pissed off cuz their life isn't full of rose buds and sunshine....
I believe this video is an act of 'if your claims are true' more than that ToolTime actually believes in a deity with those qualities. I would wager a guess that all those other atheist videos you claim to have watched were conducting the same kind of thought experiment.
This world is like a test..if you pass you go to heaven..and yes once your in heaven you will still have free will...just as lucifer did...you can still make a choice...oh and tool time..your F%^&*%N UGLY!!!
If this is a test, it's a really cruel test! If your teacher in school said to you "if you don't pass this test I will lock you up in the basement, set it on fire and make you suffer eternaly!" what would you think of that teacher?! Is that someone you would respect and worship?
yeah, a great excuse of the author of the video concerning heaven lol there is no place in the Bible that supposes that in heaven we have free will, though Lucifer had it (not forgetting he is a fallen angel, not a dead human).
So, 'scaleshchess,' you sad excuse for a carbon conglomerate, this means that 'god' knew all those who would reject him and thus go to hell and he made them anyway.
Your. 'god'. Created. People. Just. In. Order. To. Send. Them. To. HELL.
This is why we laugh at shit-eaters like you, 'scaleshchess,' because you are so fricking stupid you actually can't even figure that out.
'god' makes people to torture, by your own bible.
Unless, of course, you get off on that. Which you might, who knows?
@Diomedes01 ... so there was a war in heaven .. and thats your point ... and other people say Oh why i didnt think of that .... there were also wars in startrek you know..... based on all our knoweladge bible is just a fictional or maybe scifi book. Please accept the fact that this world is the only think here ( yeah it hurts ) and stop beliave in comforting fairy tales about eternal life
if the world had been made with no flaws, then there would be no purpose in achieving and accomplishing something. we wouldn't get anything from it. But that's what makes you human. when you are proud that you have reached a goal and achieved what you wanted. you worked hard for it because the road is misleading and has flaws. If there weren't any, you wouldn't be challenged. Religion is a challenge, but not for the weakminded. Get that? toolbaby peter *muah*
@Scalesshchess this argument you are positing assumes god prefers some humans to have virtue in the face of enormous and eternal suffering. Never mind that christianity doesn't reward virtue, it rewards belief, why would a god prefer a world of partial virtue in the face of adversity, as opposed to a world of complete and perfect virtue with out adversity? Remember that your god is moral and perfect, so his reasoning must be likewise.
God is what he is, but how he made the world is a totally different story! It is not supposed to be perfect because you have to adjust the conditions to suit your way of living. God only sets some ethical limitations as to not do any harm and live a noble decent life. Simple, isn't it?
Discrimination is inevidable, by the laws of nature. Those that are strong enough to make it to the final round, well, deserve the medal. The rest burn in hell. what's the question again?
It's about the Effort you put on achieving a goal depending on the inner strength of the individual. Religion is there to remind you that throught your devotion to Him you become stronger in spirit and subsequently are able to live a life achieving anything you want - and also, if you don't face the diversities you can not evolve, can not progress, can not learn. And life is a sum of learning experiences. I don't know how else to say this really.
watched it I am unsure how you would have me respond. He was half right, maybe 75%
his theology is off a little. If there was no technology to document and provide proof of certain events when they are happening, what event is he talking about and how did he hear about them
God has patiently allowed a lot to happen. Have you not had some enjoyable experience in your life. If you have, God allowed it, He has kept you alive, yet He did not keep His Son alive.
"the bible does not condone slavery it states that since in the world there was slavery it should not exceed a certain measure."
That IS condoning slavery!
Condone: To overlook, forgive, or disregard without protest or censure.
God allowed it to happen, did not condemn slavery at all! There's even advice on how to punish/beat your slaves in the Bible. Clearly God thought slavery more trivial than coveting, honoring your parents or homosexuality.
Raped by God's love? Love isn't true love unless it's out of free will. On this world, we have the opportunity to see what existence is like when people do not want God a part of it. So, on Earth, we have the opportunity to CHOOSE to love God out of free will, then gladly give up free will to submit to what we now know is His perfect plan. If the perfect world was created first, we would have NEVER had that free will, therefore no true love. Just clarifying the misunderstanding in the video
no you will not be able to sin in heaven. as a new creation, which is an overlooked key understanding of salvation, a person's nature is changed. This is where born of spirit and water come in, why many christians say you must be born again Jesus taught you had to be born again of spirit. A temple leader could not understand this and asked how a man was going to reenter his mother womb. When we see no longer thru our sin tarnished eyes and see God for who he is there will be no desire to sin
No, that is not the right way in understanding what I was saying about a change in nature. or you lend more to it than is warranted. It is a form of premanent death a spiritual death, you will still have all of your memories and experiences but your desires will no longer be for the unsatisfiying and fleeting whims of ones physical nature. so in heaven following this line of thinking your desires will not be to hate God but to know him fully and enjoy Him.
In an honest reply or to this question, I would say it is impossible to understand the immensity of that possibility. I would say a way of grasping that situation is of course to read the bible and not depend on every random guy who might not truly understand what scripture says.
to not be that guy.
The scripture promises that at and after the final judgement all will be made known. For the Church, a judgement of their works will take place and every tear will be wiped from their eye.
But Bible/scripture is possibly just man made text, I do not understand why people put so much faith in it. There's a real possibility it's a load of rubbish.
I'd rather base my life on reason and evidence, than some old and immoral bronze age text.
the reason people put so much faith in it is because it works. you say yeah it works for them, but I say it works for everyone who tries it and follows it to the letter. but then you get to the point the bible makes, that no one can follow it to the letter and that is what people are putting their faith in
bible immoral, why when in it is a list of all of the moral basis for our society. it is not that the biblical view wanting but people have found it to hard and left it untried
"but I say it works for everyone who tries it and follows it to the letter."
Well you'd be wrong. Plus every religions says similar things about their holy text, so the Bible isn't special.
"bible immoral, why when in it is a list of all of the moral basis for our society"
Yes condoning slavery, the stoning of disobedient children, adulterers, homosexuals, human sacrifice, genocide... all perfect examples of the moral basis for our society.
you are so worried about man's relationship and interaction with man.
The issue is man's horrible sin against a perfect infinite being. We are to act how God requires us to act not how other people or society thinks we should act.
The bible does not condone slavery it states that since in the world there was slavery it should not exceed a certain measure. And our understanding of slavery is far different then the historical slavery of the time. people would sell themselves into slavery.
ok. in this case "I" would be a robot with certain memorys implied but other memorys and feelings excluded. this is like a brainwash, not more not less.
You take to many liberties with my point I did not mention nor imply memories would be exclude nor wiped out. No brainwashing, I was talking of desires.
--a very weak xample-
have you ever drank a really bad vodka or beer then someone introduced you to GreyGoose or a Micro. From then you never want the old stuff. if you could only drink your most desired you would do it, In a far better way God is your most desired.
The best way, is to ask someone that you know, and somewhat trust
If the world at the time of creation was perfect then wouldn't that mean that it should have been impossible for sin to enter the world? And if the possibility for sin was present then wouldn't that have, by definition, made the world imperfect?
Man did have a pure nature, made it unpure, and through spiritual rebirth man's nature is made pure. Finally in the end all of the body of Christ (the spiritually reborn) will then be with God in perfect union. With their free will, and choosing along the desires of their new nature to exist with God.
If man had a pure nature, why would he make the choice to be unpure? It makes no sense. If man was pure, he wouldnt choose to be unpure. The only possible reasons to think of would either be that he was ignorant in his purity, and thus blameless for becoming unpure, or was made to be unpure, and thus still blameless.
first are we talking about the biblical account of the garden of eden and its events. if we are not then there is no point to just through ideas at each other, we need to be talking about the same thing.
Adam was pure he sought to be like God by going against his command. He fell for the ploy of the devil and believed that he had not been told the whole truth.
This is only possible because God permitted it to happen. That is the only way Adam became impure is because God ordained it to happen
Oh we`re so impressed and we`ve never thought of that before, NOT. Of course, you`re forgetting that "perfect" is completely subjective. It`s not real, it`s like beauty, who gets to define whats perfect or whats beautiful? No one. Also, a world without some level of pain and suffering would be too simple to be appreciated; without experiencing pain you can`t truly know happiness or peace. And if everything is the same all the time without challenges, that would suck.
// maybe he created a perfect world, but us humans made it imperfect? //
Two humans without the ability to distinguish right from wrong, to be precise, made the "entire creation" imperfect.
Wow. That's amazing design, wonderful justice, and ideal theology wrapped into a shit sandwich.
So, I take it when Lucifer rebelled in heaven (proving there IS free will in heaven, btw) did that make heaven imperfect? If not, why not? If so, for how long?
"So, I take it when Lucifer rebelled in heaven (proving there IS free will in heaven, btw) did that make heaven imperfect? If not, why not? If so, for how long?"
are you stupid? listen to your own words. how is heaven going to be imperfect? and no it didn't make it imperfect. Read the bible and tell me if it says that Heaven is imperfect...
4. Ipso facto, Heaven in that moment was NOT perfect.
Then you say, "Read the bible and tell me if it says that Heaven is imperfect." Oh, never thought of that! Nothing like circular reasoning to top off another loony proposition.
I asked How?. I am genuine and sincere in knowing what some answers to this question are.
no one has to answer it, I think it is one question that I never here being pondered. among all the tired old questions along with their answers and wrong answers.
I wanted to know what rational thoughts were on How an infinite all powerful being..etc... and you had stated that if it was all powerful then it could. I was asking how that is why you got a mail.
my question was
How can an allpowerful being who is infinite create a creature that would have that same infinite image?
How it could do that? You are asking me about how an imaginary deity uses his magical powers?
Um... I guess by imagining the thing he wants, and then it poffs into existence, as an infinite image. Because if this thing is all powerful it can do it, lest it is not all powerful.
----I guess by imagining the thing he wants, and then it poffs into existence, as an infinite image.-----
yes but then it would just be forever his imagination...
I am asking from a logical and metaphysical stand point how could any infinite all powerful being(not limited the biblical God) achieve that which is separate from the infinite being but is the image of it. what would sustain this creature's existence.
Note that I am an empiricist and do not accept logic without empirical fundation.
If God exists, it sustains itself. If God then is all powerful, it can create a duplicate of itself that substains itself like the God that created it.
Note that the creation paradox comes into effect; God creates something more powerful then itself which inturn destroys God, ergo God was not all powerful. By logic, all power is not possible.
If God creates something it would then have a beginning and it would only exist if sustained by that which created it. God would not and could not create something that had power he did not have where would that power come from.
I think it is faulty to argue that God would act against his nature. I think that you would agree not from a spiritual point of view but from a practical and physical point of view. Nothing acts against its nature. I would argue that is an empirical foundation.
There is no empirical foundation for anything metaphysical as there is no way to test your hypothesis.
Empirical foundation requires verification possibility.
Empiricism aside, this God cannot be all powerful if he cannot duplicate itself. If so, I must ask where did this force come from. If it is eternal and all powerful, I see no reason why it cannot create duplicates of itself, as it is in no way bound by space/time and logic, which comes from space/time.
I hold that all power and authority belongs and is contained, used by and owned by God. There is no power except that power in which he has. this is my definition of all powerful. a being having all of the existing power. can not create another being having ownership to all of the power. that is logically sound.
I hold that God is perfect logic, there is no logic but the logic that comes from him. He binds/defines logic not vice versa.
If God creates logic and is all powerful, our understanding of logic is our understanding of this universe. How can you conclude that our logic applies to something outside of space/time when logic by definition applies to space/time? By logic, eternity cannot exist.
Yes. Creation of the universe (if it had a beggining) does not need to follow any logical rules, as creation would happen "before" time and space. Therefore anything goes. God did it. It happened by itself. My cat spontaniously timewarped and did it by licking it paws, anything goes. Therefore, debating the origin of the universe is debating outside of time and space, and human conception. This is why I do not hold any theory (yet) on the origin of the cosmos.
Empiricism works only by default and function. It aplies only as valualbe as you can varify effect, not in itself. If you take X, pressure it with A, and B happens, you have an empiric varification of X+A=B, you do not have a varification of empiricism. An empiricist does not demand that empiricism needs varification, he holds that position because it is the only working position to hold.
"God created with logic and wisdom" :
Prove God. Quantify logic. Quantify Wisdom. Prove statement.
you can not posit a definition of how to determine truth that states all other definitions of truth must be verified, except for the actual statement that is being made. Empiricism does not work by default. Empiricism is a way at looking at reality. Empiricism never has to pass its own test of being validated.
if there is logic it belongs to God. Empirically disprove that. My point is that God would do everything by his own logic he would not use something outside of himself.
Disprove? I am a gnostic atheist. I work through via negativa. Everything is disporven until proven.
If you cannot prove the existence of God it is deemed negative until proven. The same goes for the big bang theory, abiogenesis and mathematical equations. They are abstract attempts to understand reality and function, but is not considered valuable until they are made likely. Empiricism is the only standing model in science. It will be heavily altered and or replaced as QM alters our peception.
that means you have to disprove empirically every statement and concept which is in the bible. We both know that you cant, but the existence of the bible creates a verifiable to a gods existence. Whether you come to the conclusion that as me which is the God of the bible is the only God. that is a different tangent.
nonetheless, you can not say well I hold the bible as a negative so it can not affirm God. your holding the bible as a negative should be held as a negative until proven positive.
Prove the foundation of logic. Prove that logic applies to the creation of the universe. Prove matematics. Prove knowledge.
It all boils down to empiricism. Without the ability to test thesis' empirically, with reality, the thesis is nothing but thought. It holds no other realm then an abstract idea.
Circular logic, or rather should I say illogic. You didn't even address the question.
Your question to me is self-refuting. "All-powerful" means just that OR it doesn't. An "all-powerful" deity by definition could do ANYTHING. The moment you put ANY limits on this deity it becomes LESS than all-powerful. Ipso facto: God is NOT all-powerful?
Wow. That was like... Logic 101 hard. Any more gems?
I addressed your question you do not like my answer, what is wrong with it in more that ten words
you didnt address my question, my question was how can an infinite deity assign his image to one that is not likewise infinite.
and No an all powerful being can not do anything. that again is the childish and lame argumentation of whether can God create something he can not move or can God create an infinite god exactly like himself. to be able to answer these questions correctly is logic 101
well infinite is a scientific, mathematical, and existential concept so is finitude.
based on these concepts of reality how does that apply to answering my question. the point here is that you have not event thought about it and insist on talking about leprechauns.
"How can an all powerful being who is infinite create a creature that would have that same infinite image? "
"all powerful being" and "infinite image" are not mathematical/scientific concepts, so YOU might as well be asking about leprechauns.
You're asking for an explanation of an imaginary event. Since both of these concepts could involve any number of contradictions you can logically come to any conclusion you want to.
I wonder how this label perfect and imperfect seems to come up and applied to something which is so large, we have no frame of reference in any way to judge it.
To me, it just seems illogic to begin with the statement at all. On the other hand, I'm not left with the problem of explaining God's assumed creation.
Now i don't disagree or agree with religion, people have the right to do or think whatever they want. What i don't disagree with,are christians forcing their beliefs on people. "If you do not baptize your children they will go to hell", you should not instill fear on people. That is hipocritical and i really really hate that.
to be honest..i think religion was created because people need to have a reward for living good lives. Everything we do, we expect an outcome.Clean the house so we don't feel dirty, giving gifts so you feel nice. People think that every action deserves an outcome, so when we die..we're left with nothing. We have to create this "heaven" because people would be so depressed without the thought of 'someone' watching over them...you get what i'm saying?
The reason this world is nessesary is because its like an experiment that gives us the chance to make the right decisions in life and to be judged. Theres a lot more to Heaven then sin or pleasure which makes it logical to explain how someone with free will would not make that kind of decision.
Grantapuslafsalot, you're an idiot. Experiments? What kind of loving god would do that? If he can make a perfect world, why would he need to "test" us? If we only have this life to do god's will, WHY ARE WE FUCKING HERE ANYWAY? He could have just sent us straight to Heaven instead of creating this. Why do we HAVE to go through a trial before we meet our maker? Too many UNANSWERED questions to even believe in that shit. Oh, but we will know it all when we die, right? Bullshit. Grow up!
"what will you say to god your maker at the judgement"?
1) I think, if Christianity is correct, tooltime could start with this video's argument as sufficient rational justification for doubting that hidden deity's existence.
2) In fact, if Christianity is correct, then based on the argument in this video and plenty more, it's not tooltime, but God, who's got some serious explaining to do.
The first human beings God created chose to sin and disobey his law, creating an imperfect world. The world was perfect at first. God DID create a perfect world, that's the entire point. Read the bible and you will understand that doctrine.
The world was perfect, the first human beings had the free will of either obeying or disobeying God...they chose the latter, here we have a world of sin. The wage of sin=death. And sin separates us from God. Hence, an imperfect world.
so the world was perfect from the start? so does that mean that the first people to heaven ruined that world too? cuz heaven and earth were both perfect (im not sure perfection can occur 2 different ways or maybe im wrong idk), but this once perfect world was ruined by sinners so that means heaven is probably ruined too and we dont know it yet or some bullshit like that. lol
Wait a second. What you are saying tooltime9901 is "If I were God I would do it this way.."
You are not God....and your "refutation" is not valid, nor has it answered a thing other than shown that you do not like the way it is.
Well, I do not like pain, sickness, suffering or death either, but the difference between you and I is that I accept God's love in Jesus Christ freely..and you, for some reason do not.
You are missing the point. God created a world where evil is possible. He also created a perfect world. That means that God could have created just a perfect world.
God is enabling evil. Why?
Also, why create free will in a way that enables evil? Is there free will in heaven? If so, he could have made a perfect world with free will from the beggining. Do you understand this logic?
Hey tooltime9901, you ought to stop wasting your time with jezuzfreak777, and watch the latest train wreck of a youtube user, howtheworldworks. This guys is... indescribable! He's some neocon kid that seems to be auditioning for FOX news on his channel and he stares straight ahead unblinking (probably reading a prompt, or a note sheet) spouting archie bunker logic. TJ and thunderf00t has ripped on the guy and responded quite well to his "arguments" you ought to check him out.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
A few things:
1) In heaven, God will strengthen us to His power because we will then be "above the angels". We were not worthy of this before Christ and before we suffered the tempation/persecution/etc. of this world.
B) Evil is not necessary for free will in Heaven because we have already shown by persecution/temptation/etc. that we do not desire evil - we desire God. Thus, God will then grant us the power. In the G.O.E, we had not shown this devotion to God - evil was needed for FW.
where the fuck were you ?
alexandreleverrier 1 month ago
Interesting video!
Jayoung1000 8 months ago
He does reveal himself in this world . If you must see to believe the Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe is proof . Blood boils every year in Italy . Fatima had over 70K
witnesses many were like you and there were Freemasons and Protestants most converted .
SAYYOURROSARY 9 months ago
the number of likes for this video is gonna freak out manY people,
krisjanneman 11 months ago
for the record i am an Atheist. Your argument has only 1 hole and it is one that I would expect a Christian to use. You see Christians typically think of this world as a test in which we choose to either follow God or Satan. Yes if god truly loved us then he should make his existence more believable, but can you argue your point against me as if i were a Christian? Anyone who is reading this comment (and I don’t care how long it will be until somebody does) is welcome to respond :)
TheMagicSandwichist 1 year ago
@TheMagicSandwichist But why would god give people the will to choose, ie. the will to 'choose' the 'wrong path', if he could have made the beings and their surroundings such that they could not possibly make decisions that would lead them to hell?
Satan could not intervene because, after all, God is all powerful and Satan is not.
God invented Hell, Satan, and sin.
Why would an all powerful being curse the human race that he apparently loves?
MrWafflesMonster 11 months ago
@MrWafflesMonster If i were a Christian i would say: because this world is a test and we need to make that conscience choice to accept God. He gave us that choice.
TheMagicSandwichist 11 months ago
haha 666 likes i wonder who thrywere by lol!
trippinonbud 1 year ago
Thumbs up, another exposure of the dramatic bollocks of the religious nutjobs!
i5itint3ll3ct 1 year ago
I could lock someone in my basement and convince myself and them that it is a loving relationship. It is much more rewarding to ACHIEVE a relationship. The "it's not necessary" argument is meaningless unless we know the end result.
bootlegpreacher 1 year ago
@bootlegpreacher what kind of relationship starts with 'I'm perfect, you're not. Obey me or die'? A very abusive one at best.
I could put you through severe "Saw"-like tests of character. You would suffer, but would you love me?
Why would anyone love their torturer other than Stockholm Syndrome? Is that Yahwe's perfect plan, by making us so dependable on him that his every indifferent sigh in between slaughters equals a passionate decree of mercy?
Who cares for Job's firstborn, right?
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
My 2 year old was running away from me in a parking lot. Fortunately she was fearful enough of what I would do when I yelled "STOP". She was about to run in front of a car that was backing out. Her choices were essentially "obey me or (quite possibly) die". Is that abusive?
My baby girl had to take some nasty medicine for the last couple weeks that hurt her stomach and gave her a bad rash. She sure thought I was torturing her. She can't comprehend why this had to be done.
bootlegpreacher 1 year ago
@bootlegpreacher I get that. I really do. Your parents did the same thing raising you. Except you're an adult now. And God wants you to kill other adults. Obey or die.
You're missing the point of what I was saying. I get that you think of God as this divine daddy that wants to protect and keep you safe. It's a nice security blanket.
The difference being, which is the crux of what I was saying, is that your dad had yóur best interest in mind. God has his own interest in mind. (contd)
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@viridismonasteriense To part 1: how do you know that's all God has in mind? My daughter didn't know that. She probably felt like I was just trying to control her.
bootlegpreacher 1 year ago
@bootlegpreacher "My daughter didn't know that."
I don't doubt your daughter knows exactly what will happen when a speeding car hits her. It doesn't take her father to tell her that. Pain=bad is the simplest and earliest lesson a human being learns. (If they don't have CIPA disorder that is, or are born Mr Slave from South Park)
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@bootlegpreacher And if in this example you are the kid and God is the father and you're running towards the car, you must bear in mind that God made you capable of running, God made you want to run, God made the bits of the car heading towards you, God made it what it is, God made its driver drive towards you, God made the driver look away: God set the entire moment up and then he tells you: Obey or I will let that car hit you. I will make it hit you. And if it hits...you deserve it?
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@viridismonasteriense To part 2: I'm not sure "make it hit you" is the only way to look at it. Darkness is merely the absence of light. It doesn't need to be made or created. This would also suggest that God isn't just in it for the control.
Does a child ever deserve to be hit by a car? I hate to think so, still I punish her consistently for small things and was thus able to avoid this big catastrophe. If you want to know why bad things happen to good people, all I can say is, I don't know yet
bootlegpreacher 1 year ago
@bootlegpreacher "is merely the absence of light. "
Why do you assume God is light?
"still I punish her consistently for small things and was thus able to avoid this big catastrophe. "
So wait, did you punish her for listening to you? What?! Is it ever good enough? Hit by car, pain/punishment, or obeying you, punishment. Quite the incentive to listen to you.
So because she was wrong for running in the first place you punish her. She's a child! She didn't know. (contd)
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@bootlegpreacher (contd) My little sister did the same once, running off across the street not looking and almost got hit. I yelled, she listened when it was already too late (meaning she was standing at the exact spot in the middle of the road I did NOT want her to be, talk about irony) but luckily the driver saw her coming and stopped.
I explained to her why she scared me, why she shouldn't do that and what would happen if she did it again.
She never did it again.
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@bootlegpreacher The 4-year old even berated me once for not stopping and looking. when we were cycling to her school. Kept me on my toes and kept me doing the right thing and giving the right example. Ha.
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@bootlegpreacher Sorry if I'm crowding your inbox, but I had to respond to this as well, after trying to decipher it for a minute:
"I'm not sure "make it hit you" is the only way to look at it. Darkness is merely the absence of light."
It's usually said that God has a plan for 'us'. A purpose. A 'design'. 'Destiny'. In the Bible it says he decides who dies when. You can't claim this God is omnopotent, omnipresent, controls and created everything and then claim that he is absent there!
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@bootlegpreacher "I'm not sure "make it hit you" is the only way to look at it."
Aha. So you admit that it is a way to look at it. That's what I always find so annoying about Bible-fundies. Confronted with a violent passage about slaughter or slavery and they claim context makes it okay. You just have to tilt your head and suddenly the Escher painting first seen as a bloody carnage turns into a peaceful meadow.
Hitler loved animals and was anti-smoking, but does that make his crimes okay?
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@viridismonasteriense "Hitler loved animals (...) but does that make his crimes okay?"
Let me expand on that. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing for Germany. He had a grand scheme in mind for Europe. Does that make his crimes okay? No.
So if God has an ultimate goal in mind for us with all the right intentions, a goal so good and righteous, would that suddenly make the required mass suffering okay? (btw Mother Theresa even thought suffering was an integral part of worship!)
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@bootlegpreacher
"If you want to know why bad things happen to good people, all I can say is, I don't know yet"
Why do good things happen to bad people?
You assume God is "light" and "good" and when confronted with suffering in this world you say "I don't know why he would let or cause it to happen". If God is real, all we know for sure is that he *does* let it happen. People die in car crashes every single day. Ask yourself, what kind of a masterplan requires mass suffering?
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
Comment removed
bootlegpreacher 1 year ago
4 noble gasses were created. It's not possible for that which is incorruptible/Glorified to sin or be punished. 5 1/2 billion years of evolution has taught us a lot. You should try reconciling your faith or lack with Quantum Physics. Did you know that scientists have discovered anit-matter and made black holes since you uploaded this. Your views are ancient atheist rhetoric, you have no knowledge of perfection or the meaning of the words you're using. Go back and get your GED & go to college.
shizzleman8 1 year ago
You still haven't filled in the description box.
SiriusUnrelated 1 year ago
lol, all these atheist liberal channels troll youtube looking for conservatives Christians to harass. Very pathetic but i guess youtube is the only place people will listen to your bullshit
BorgKing001 1 year ago
Im subscribing.
LouisPlume 1 year ago
there is no sin in heaven because when you get to heaven everything is not a sin anymore is what I think.. which is why in some religions they happen to talk about you getting many virgins and stuff in heaven there is NO sin in heaven... you don't have to get virgins it's up to you.. but if you did go to heaven you probably never had sex anyway...
woyay 1 year ago
what is the difference between logic and lack of foolishness.. because the bible does say that God doesn't like fools but at the same time he talks bad about scribes and pharisees which I would presume are actually the smart people of that time..
woyay 1 year ago
let us say the world is perfect.. for the world to be perfect.. for something to be perfect.. shouldn't it also be experienced..??? Something is not trully perfect unless it experiences imperfection first.. or a degree of disturbance which it casts aside .. and pride cannot exist.. for God is a proud God he is proud of himself.. he is Jealous .. he likes being God he wants us all to Know he's God .. yes why can't God reveal himself in this world.. maybe he does but in a complex manner..
woyay 1 year ago
if God were real there could be suffering in the world because in the bible it says do not be too good or too evil lest you destroy yourself.. what does this mean if God has a world that is too perfect it will be destroyed?? Kinda makes sense.. if everyone was perfectly friendly to the devil I guess he would destroy it..
IF these were real they might be I don't really know..
woyay 1 year ago
To all atheists, debating christians is pointless, as logic is most commonly used in debate and logic is of the devil and an abomination unto the lord, The bible is self refuting.
InKa4484 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
whoa. i thought i had hashed out refutations for all christian dogma, but i hadn't even thought of the "freewill in heaven" quandry. good work.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
whoa. i thought i had hashed out refutations for all christian dogma, but i hadn't even thought of the "freewill in heaven" quandry. good work.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
whoa. i thought i had hashed out refutations for all christian dogma, but i hadn't even thought of the "freewill in heaven" quandry. good work.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
This video really is pointless; the fact that something is "unnecessary" doesn't mean it can't exist. (After all, people's belief in monotheism exists!) This argument doesn't really say that Christianity or YVWH is wrong at all, it just says that YVWH did whet he wanted if he exists. Also, most media involving a Christian view (whether parody, parody by Christians, or movies that are supposed to represent "reality"),, when God talks about people and such, he talks as though heaven was
Rayvn7 1 year ago
already there, or as though he comes from heaven. Even in shows about other religious aspects but with Christian influence, such as Charmed ("Elders" in a "heaven"-like place), this can be seen.
Rayvn7 1 year ago
God is allmighty in the realm of that what is possible, or what makes sense. He cant make a thing that has 2 opposite properties at the same time.
If a creature has its own will, God can't make it that this being listens to Gods will and his own will at the same time, God cant do that, its impossible.
niinja2 1 year ago
good objection, my answer would be that people in heaven dont have free will ( or they have diminished freedom) but they have decided to give up their free will for higher things.
Like someone who is married , he voluntarily diminishes his right to have sex with anyone.
They say the biggest act of freedom is to let it go.
But this objection also has problems because i personally think there is no such thing as free will, not at least they way most people define it.
niinja2 1 year ago
'to be filled in later'- march 23rd 2009.
Lol'd xD.
I agree (Y).
EMZ=]
GeekTeen 1 year ago
That video is a masterpiece. Congrats
Guildhelm 2 years ago
Great food for thought.
Also,-- I just realized this and don't remember if you mention it in the video-- but isn't our existence completely unnecessary if the Christian god exists?
Our existence would be completely unnecessary and unwarranted because God would have known EXACTLY what every person to ever exist would do and whether or not they deserve to go to heaven or hell even BEFORE He/She/It/They/Sklee created them.
Ramblings aside, good video.
no1sjester 2 years ago
All the deformities and diseases are from mankind's experiments on earth from early humans....nuff said.
moJomittens 2 years ago
@1:30 to 1:35 ...where is your evidence for this statement?? So now you believe in God and making up delusional facts about God????
seriously.....You fucked up there dude. I catch statements like this all the time when I'm watching atheist videos. It's like half the time they believe in God and just pissed off cuz their life isn't full of rose buds and sunshine....
moJomittens 2 years ago
I believe this video is an act of 'if your claims are true' more than that ToolTime actually believes in a deity with those qualities. I would wager a guess that all those other atheist videos you claim to have watched were conducting the same kind of thought experiment.
darkchiron 2 years ago
This world is like a test..if you pass you go to heaven..and yes once your in heaven you will still have free will...just as lucifer did...you can still make a choice...oh and tool time..your F%^&*%N UGLY!!!
focusizhere 2 years ago
If this is a test, it's a really cruel test! If your teacher in school said to you "if you don't pass this test I will lock you up in the basement, set it on fire and make you suffer eternaly!" what would you think of that teacher?! Is that someone you would respect and worship?
KamasutraButterfly 2 years ago
"raped by god's love" , damn!
lol
sprucepanther 2 years ago 15
Hehe, JezuzFreak just got raped by tooltime's hate :P
SirPwn4lot 2 years ago
yeah, a great excuse of the author of the video concerning heaven lol there is no place in the Bible that supposes that in heaven we have free will, though Lucifer had it (not forgetting he is a fallen angel, not a dead human).
marteco 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
if god exists and i go to heaven i want to be gay so i can suck is big cock
Machineghosts 1 year ago
Why, 'scaleshchess', do idiots like you try to even talk to more evolved humans?
Do you think if you drool enough of your disgusting, human hating shit we'll all just join you and hate along with you?
Are you that sick, that twisted? Do you really believe that a philosophy of such perverted hate is worth something?
Why?
Do you enjoy telling people that if they don't believe in your idea of a pervert in the sky they will burn for eternity.
Are you always such a human-hating sadist?
Krocotto 2 years ago
So, 'scaleshchess,' you sad excuse for a carbon conglomerate, this means that 'god' knew all those who would reject him and thus go to hell and he made them anyway.
Your. 'god'. Created. People. Just. In. Order. To. Send. Them. To. HELL.
This is why we laugh at shit-eaters like you, 'scaleshchess,' because you are so fricking stupid you actually can't even figure that out.
'god' makes people to torture, by your own bible.
Unless, of course, you get off on that. Which you might, who knows?
Krocotto 2 years ago
jezuzfreek's assertion that heaven is 'perfect' is also wrong.
There was a war in heaven between Lucifer and the angels that followed him and the loyal angels of the archangel michael.
Perhaps its just me, but having a war in a place would lead me to believe it isn't perfect. :-)
Diomedes01 2 years ago 11
exactly, his error was to call heaven perfect, and this little refutal vid being based on that assumption is going nowhere..
muzalot 2 years ago
good point , why didnt i think of that .
so right
ImmortalUniverse 2 years ago
@Diomedes01 ... so there was a war in heaven .. and thats your point ... and other people say Oh why i didnt think of that .... there were also wars in startrek you know..... based on all our knoweladge bible is just a fictional or maybe scifi book. Please accept the fact that this world is the only think here ( yeah it hurts ) and stop beliave in comforting fairy tales about eternal life
platonicx 2 years ago
@Diomedes01
Having the Abrahamic God in it is sufficient to convince me it isn't perfect.
rkyeun 9 months ago
"raped by love"? hehe cute!
Love can not be coersed.
scaleshchess 2 years ago
thats the little liner that venomtwang always used
Catlover123445 2 years ago
if the world had been made with no flaws, then there would be no purpose in achieving and accomplishing something. we wouldn't get anything from it. But that's what makes you human. when you are proud that you have reached a goal and achieved what you wanted. you worked hard for it because the road is misleading and has flaws. If there weren't any, you wouldn't be challenged. Religion is a challenge, but not for the weakminded. Get that? toolbaby peter *muah*
scaleshchess 2 years ago
@Scalesshchess this argument you are positing assumes god prefers some humans to have virtue in the face of enormous and eternal suffering. Never mind that christianity doesn't reward virtue, it rewards belief, why would a god prefer a world of partial virtue in the face of adversity, as opposed to a world of complete and perfect virtue with out adversity? Remember that your god is moral and perfect, so his reasoning must be likewise.
WayOfTheBastard 2 years ago
You have just missed the whole point!
God is what he is, but how he made the world is a totally different story! It is not supposed to be perfect because you have to adjust the conditions to suit your way of living. God only sets some ethical limitations as to not do any harm and live a noble decent life. Simple, isn't it?
why do you guys keep confusing yourselves?
scaleshchess 2 years ago
You completely failed to answer my question. Please re-read my comment and answer the question I actually asked.
WayOfTheBastard 2 years ago
I don't understand your question.
Discrimination is inevidable, by the laws of nature. Those that are strong enough to make it to the final round, well, deserve the medal. The rest burn in hell. what's the question again?
scaleshchess 2 years ago
Note : Bosch's Hell is my favorite painting. yay to you for that!
scaleshchess 2 years ago
Then let me ask it one more time:
Why would a god prefer a world of partial virtue in the face of adversity, as opposed to a world of complete and perfect virtue with out adversity?
Or Why is this world preferable to create over heaven? Why start us one earth?
WayOfTheBastard 2 years ago
"start us on** earth, not one earth.
WayOfTheBastard 2 years ago
I think I answered that -
It's about the Effort you put on achieving a goal depending on the inner strength of the individual. Religion is there to remind you that throught your devotion to Him you become stronger in spirit and subsequently are able to live a life achieving anything you want - and also, if you don't face the diversities you can not evolve, can not progress, can not learn. And life is a sum of learning experiences. I don't know how else to say this really.
scaleshchess 2 years ago
What a spectacular load of horse-pucky!
If that's the best you can do, you FAIL, nimrod!
You, 'scaleshchess', need many, many lessons. The first is this:
There is NO such thing as free will. Why? By the very bible itself!
1: 'god' knew everything that was going to happen before he created everything.
2: 'god' therefore knew every person who would reject and he would end up throwing in hell.
3: 'god' still made these 'rejectors' the way without changing them so they could not go to hell.
Krocotto 2 years ago
JMackeyIII
Can I suggest you watch a video?
watch?v=cnPWWbePeb8&feature=channel_page
Tell me what you think please.
neilswann80 2 years ago
watched it I am unsure how you would have me respond. He was half right, maybe 75%
his theology is off a little. If there was no technology to document and provide proof of certain events when they are happening, what event is he talking about and how did he hear about them
God has patiently allowed a lot to happen. Have you not had some enjoyable experience in your life. If you have, God allowed it, He has kept you alive, yet He did not keep His Son alive.
the cross was worse then the flood.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
The cross was worse than the flood? One life compared to thousands? Millions?
I don't think so.
If evolution is correct, which is looking more and more likely, then Adam and Eve did not exist, ergo no original sin, so Jesus died for nothing.
neilswann80 2 years ago
"the bible does not condone slavery it states that since in the world there was slavery it should not exceed a certain measure."
That IS condoning slavery!
Condone: To overlook, forgive, or disregard without protest or censure.
God allowed it to happen, did not condemn slavery at all! There's even advice on how to punish/beat your slaves in the Bible. Clearly God thought slavery more trivial than coveting, honoring your parents or homosexuality.
Not a God worth worshipping in my opinion.
neilswann80 2 years ago
test
neilswann80 2 years ago
Raped by God's love? Love isn't true love unless it's out of free will. On this world, we have the opportunity to see what existence is like when people do not want God a part of it. So, on Earth, we have the opportunity to CHOOSE to love God out of free will, then gladly give up free will to submit to what we now know is His perfect plan. If the perfect world was created first, we would have NEVER had that free will, therefore no true love. Just clarifying the misunderstanding in the video
BamaE92 2 years ago
Are you able to sin in heaven?
neilswann80 2 years ago
no you will not be able to sin in heaven. as a new creation, which is an overlooked key understanding of salvation, a person's nature is changed. This is where born of spirit and water come in, why many christians say you must be born again Jesus taught you had to be born again of spirit. A temple leader could not understand this and asked how a man was going to reenter his mother womb. When we see no longer thru our sin tarnished eyes and see God for who he is there will be no desire to sin
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
"a person's nature is changed"
So I wouldn't be "Me" anymore. Sounds like a form of permanent death to me.
neilswann80 2 years ago
No, that is not the right way in understanding what I was saying about a change in nature. or you lend more to it than is warranted. It is a form of premanent death a spiritual death, you will still have all of your memories and experiences but your desires will no longer be for the unsatisfiying and fleeting whims of ones physical nature. so in heaven following this line of thinking your desires will not be to hate God but to know him fully and enjoy Him.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
How will I feel in heaven regarding loved ones who were not permitted in? How does hell fit in to this story of yours?
neilswann80 2 years ago
In an honest reply or to this question, I would say it is impossible to understand the immensity of that possibility. I would say a way of grasping that situation is of course to read the bible and not depend on every random guy who might not truly understand what scripture says.
to not be that guy.
The scripture promises that at and after the final judgement all will be made known. For the Church, a judgement of their works will take place and every tear will be wiped from their eye.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
But Bible/scripture is possibly just man made text, I do not understand why people put so much faith in it. There's a real possibility it's a load of rubbish.
I'd rather base my life on reason and evidence, than some old and immoral bronze age text.
neilswann80 2 years ago
the reason people put so much faith in it is because it works. you say yeah it works for them, but I say it works for everyone who tries it and follows it to the letter. but then you get to the point the bible makes, that no one can follow it to the letter and that is what people are putting their faith in
bible immoral, why when in it is a list of all of the moral basis for our society. it is not that the biblical view wanting but people have found it to hard and left it untried
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
"but I say it works for everyone who tries it and follows it to the letter."
Well you'd be wrong. Plus every religions says similar things about their holy text, so the Bible isn't special.
"bible immoral, why when in it is a list of all of the moral basis for our society"
Yes condoning slavery, the stoning of disobedient children, adulterers, homosexuals, human sacrifice, genocide... all perfect examples of the moral basis for our society.
neilswann80 2 years ago
Lets look at some of the 10 commandments also...
Honor your parents
Blasphemy
Keep sabbath holy
Do not commit adultery
Do not covet
None of the above things appear to be held in that much esteem in a western society, so I hardly think the Bible is the moral basis for our society!
And the last one... "Do not covet..."
Coveting drives our capatilistic society, it drives us to strive to obtain things that we want.
You're deluded mate!
neilswann80 2 years ago
you are so worried about man's relationship and interaction with man.
The issue is man's horrible sin against a perfect infinite being. We are to act how God requires us to act not how other people or society thinks we should act.
The bible does not condone slavery it states that since in the world there was slavery it should not exceed a certain measure. And our understanding of slavery is far different then the historical slavery of the time. people would sell themselves into slavery.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
"The issue is man's horrible sin against a perfect infinite being..."
Well I'd say the main issue is whether that being actually exists, and I see no rational evidence to believe it does.
Would a perfect being need to murder human beings (some innocent children) to get his point across? The Bible is full of such stories.
neilswann80 2 years ago
ok. in this case "I" would be a robot with certain memorys implied but other memorys and feelings excluded. this is like a brainwash, not more not less.
Y0ts0 2 years ago
You take to many liberties with my point I did not mention nor imply memories would be exclude nor wiped out. No brainwashing, I was talking of desires.
--a very weak xample-
have you ever drank a really bad vodka or beer then someone introduced you to GreyGoose or a Micro. From then you never want the old stuff. if you could only drink your most desired you would do it, In a far better way God is your most desired.
The best way, is to ask someone that you know, and somewhat trust
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
If the world at the time of creation was perfect then wouldn't that mean that it should have been impossible for sin to enter the world? And if the possibility for sin was present then wouldn't that have, by definition, made the world imperfect?
Tavereen 2 years ago
Man did have a pure nature, made it unpure, and through spiritual rebirth man's nature is made pure. Finally in the end all of the body of Christ (the spiritually reborn) will then be with God in perfect union. With their free will, and choosing along the desires of their new nature to exist with God.
Let us create man in our own image....
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
If man had a pure nature, why would he make the choice to be unpure? It makes no sense. If man was pure, he wouldnt choose to be unpure. The only possible reasons to think of would either be that he was ignorant in his purity, and thus blameless for becoming unpure, or was made to be unpure, and thus still blameless.
Staunts 2 years ago
first are we talking about the biblical account of the garden of eden and its events. if we are not then there is no point to just through ideas at each other, we need to be talking about the same thing.
Adam was pure he sought to be like God by going against his command. He fell for the ploy of the devil and believed that he had not been told the whole truth.
This is only possible because God permitted it to happen. That is the only way Adam became impure is because God ordained it to happen
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
Have you ever thought about it?
your stupidity makes me wanna slap you.
Have you ever thought about it?
maybe he created a perfect world, but us humans made it imperfect?
jonathepianist 2 years ago
Oh we`re so impressed and we`ve never thought of that before, NOT. Of course, you`re forgetting that "perfect" is completely subjective. It`s not real, it`s like beauty, who gets to define whats perfect or whats beautiful? No one. Also, a world without some level of pain and suffering would be too simple to be appreciated; without experiencing pain you can`t truly know happiness or peace. And if everything is the same all the time without challenges, that would suck.
shrikechan 2 years ago
// maybe he created a perfect world, but us humans made it imperfect? //
Two humans without the ability to distinguish right from wrong, to be precise, made the "entire creation" imperfect.
Wow. That's amazing design, wonderful justice, and ideal theology wrapped into a shit sandwich.
So, I take it when Lucifer rebelled in heaven (proving there IS free will in heaven, btw) did that make heaven imperfect? If not, why not? If so, for how long?
rationalmuscle 2 years ago
"So, I take it when Lucifer rebelled in heaven (proving there IS free will in heaven, btw) did that make heaven imperfect? If not, why not? If so, for how long?"
are you stupid? listen to your own words. how is heaven going to be imperfect? and no it didn't make it imperfect. Read the bible and tell me if it says that Heaven is imperfect...
jonathepianist 2 years ago
Follow me here Einstein:
1. Lucifer was an angel.
2. Lucifer lived in heaven.
3. Lucifer rebelled against God.
4. Ipso facto, Heaven in that moment was NOT perfect.
Then you say, "Read the bible and tell me if it says that Heaven is imperfect." Oh, never thought of that! Nothing like circular reasoning to top off another loony proposition.
rationalmuscle 2 years ago
now you follow me here...
why do you ask if Lucifer made heaven imperfect?
does it say in any text or chapter of the bible
that heaven was imperfect because of
Lucifer?
or does it say it was imperfect in any of the
testaments? new, old?
you think Heaven is going to be IMPERFECT if God lives there?
jonathepianist 2 years ago
My Buddha you're a moron.
The Bible doesn't give directions for wiping my ass either, but lo and behold, I have a BRAIN of my own.
Let's try this with a simple question:
Ready?
How can an act of overt rebellion against God exist within a PERFECT environment?
I know, I know... I'm asking a lot of you, what with "thinking for yourself" and all, but... give it a shot.
rationalmuscle 2 years ago
the act was possible because God allowed it. the possibility of evil does not mean evil must exist, just its possibility.
How about you answer this question. How can an allpowerful being who is infinite create a creature that would have that same infinite image?
GIVE IT A SHOT.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
If the being is all powerful it can do it or else it is not all powerful.
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
I asked How?. I am genuine and sincere in knowing what some answers to this question are.
no one has to answer it, I think it is one question that I never here being pondered. among all the tired old questions along with their answers and wrong answers.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
How what where why? Why did I get a mail about this comment? I fail to understand...
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
I wanted to know what rational thoughts were on How an infinite all powerful being..etc... and you had stated that if it was all powerful then it could. I was asking how that is why you got a mail.
my question was
How can an allpowerful being who is infinite create a creature that would have that same infinite image?
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
How it could do that? You are asking me about how an imaginary deity uses his magical powers?
Um... I guess by imagining the thing he wants, and then it poffs into existence, as an infinite image. Because if this thing is all powerful it can do it, lest it is not all powerful.
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
----I guess by imagining the thing he wants, and then it poffs into existence, as an infinite image.-----
yes but then it would just be forever his imagination...
I am asking from a logical and metaphysical stand point how could any infinite all powerful being(not limited the biblical God) achieve that which is separate from the infinite being but is the image of it. what would sustain this creature's existence.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
Note that I am an empiricist and do not accept logic without empirical fundation.
If God exists, it sustains itself. If God then is all powerful, it can create a duplicate of itself that substains itself like the God that created it.
Note that the creation paradox comes into effect; God creates something more powerful then itself which inturn destroys God, ergo God was not all powerful. By logic, all power is not possible.
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
If God creates something it would then have a beginning and it would only exist if sustained by that which created it. God would not and could not create something that had power he did not have where would that power come from.
I think it is faulty to argue that God would act against his nature. I think that you would agree not from a spiritual point of view but from a practical and physical point of view. Nothing acts against its nature. I would argue that is an empirical foundation.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
There is no empirical foundation for anything metaphysical as there is no way to test your hypothesis.
Empirical foundation requires verification possibility.
Empiricism aside, this God cannot be all powerful if he cannot duplicate itself. If so, I must ask where did this force come from. If it is eternal and all powerful, I see no reason why it cannot create duplicates of itself, as it is in no way bound by space/time and logic, which comes from space/time.
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
I hold that all power and authority belongs and is contained, used by and owned by God. There is no power except that power in which he has. this is my definition of all powerful. a being having all of the existing power. can not create another being having ownership to all of the power. that is logically sound.
I hold that God is perfect logic, there is no logic but the logic that comes from him. He binds/defines logic not vice versa.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
If God creates logic and is all powerful, our understanding of logic is our understanding of this universe. How can you conclude that our logic applies to something outside of space/time when logic by definition applies to space/time? By logic, eternity cannot exist.
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
logically so eternity can not exist....
you would need eternity to show it to be nonexistent.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
Yes. Creation of the universe (if it had a beggining) does not need to follow any logical rules, as creation would happen "before" time and space. Therefore anything goes. God did it. It happened by itself. My cat spontaniously timewarped and did it by licking it paws, anything goes. Therefore, debating the origin of the universe is debating outside of time and space, and human conception. This is why I do not hold any theory (yet) on the origin of the cosmos.
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
why does creation not have to follow logic. God created with logic and wisdom, his logic and wisdom would be creations foundation.
Empirical foundation requires verification possibility
-does this statement have a verification possibility
the empirical foundation devalues its own assertions. the foundation of empiricism can not be verified.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
Empiricism works only by default and function. It aplies only as valualbe as you can varify effect, not in itself. If you take X, pressure it with A, and B happens, you have an empiric varification of X+A=B, you do not have a varification of empiricism. An empiricist does not demand that empiricism needs varification, he holds that position because it is the only working position to hold.
"God created with logic and wisdom" :
Prove God. Quantify logic. Quantify Wisdom. Prove statement.
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
you can not posit a definition of how to determine truth that states all other definitions of truth must be verified, except for the actual statement that is being made. Empiricism does not work by default. Empiricism is a way at looking at reality. Empiricism never has to pass its own test of being validated.
if there is logic it belongs to God. Empirically disprove that. My point is that God would do everything by his own logic he would not use something outside of himself.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
Disprove? I am a gnostic atheist. I work through via negativa. Everything is disporven until proven.
If you cannot prove the existence of God it is deemed negative until proven. The same goes for the big bang theory, abiogenesis and mathematical equations. They are abstract attempts to understand reality and function, but is not considered valuable until they are made likely. Empiricism is the only standing model in science. It will be heavily altered and or replaced as QM alters our peception.
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
that means you have to disprove empirically every statement and concept which is in the bible. We both know that you cant, but the existence of the bible creates a verifiable to a gods existence. Whether you come to the conclusion that as me which is the God of the bible is the only God. that is a different tangent.
nonetheless, you can not say well I hold the bible as a negative so it can not affirm God. your holding the bible as a negative should be held as a negative until proven positive.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
Prove the foundation of logic. Prove that logic applies to the creation of the universe. Prove matematics. Prove knowledge.
It all boils down to empiricism. Without the ability to test thesis' empirically, with reality, the thesis is nothing but thought. It holds no other realm then an abstract idea.
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
----Without the ability to test thesis' empirically, with reality, the thesis is nothing but thought-----
has this been empirically tested and found to be true. when do you know when you have fully empirically tested a thesis.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
Circular logic, or rather should I say illogic. You didn't even address the question.
Your question to me is self-refuting. "All-powerful" means just that OR it doesn't. An "all-powerful" deity by definition could do ANYTHING. The moment you put ANY limits on this deity it becomes LESS than all-powerful. Ipso facto: God is NOT all-powerful?
Wow. That was like... Logic 101 hard. Any more gems?
rationalmuscle 2 years ago
I addressed your question you do not like my answer, what is wrong with it in more that ten words
you didnt address my question, my question was how can an infinite deity assign his image to one that is not likewise infinite.
and No an all powerful being can not do anything. that again is the childish and lame argumentation of whether can God create something he can not move or can God create an infinite god exactly like himself. to be able to answer these questions correctly is logic 101
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
Your answer makes no logical sense. Try rewording it perhaps.
This is baby simple: There's no such thing as "all-powerful". That's the point. It's a logical contradiction.
But I'll play the silly game.
1. Define "image". This is vague. Even the Hebrew word is vague. Exactly what are you referring to.
2. Are you suggesting that this infinite God could "not" create finite beings?
3. You presuppose this actually happened. Major hole.
Honestly you're not making much sense at all...
rationalmuscle 2 years ago
i am not trying to insult you by slight of phrase.
Why is there no such thing as all-powerful.
I was referring to the vague word of image that is in genesis. "let us create man in our own image" How?
2--> can an infinite being have any attribute that is finite
I am not sure what 3 is referring to.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
@JMackeyIII
your line of questioning makes no sense. In the same manner I could ask you:
"why is a magical leprechaun compelled to give you his gold if you catch him?"
You're asking for an explanation of a hypothetical and untestable event.
ricorurik 2 years ago
well infinite is a scientific, mathematical, and existential concept so is finitude.
based on these concepts of reality how does that apply to answering my question. the point here is that you have not event thought about it and insist on talking about leprechauns.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
"How can an all powerful being who is infinite create a creature that would have that same infinite image? "
"all powerful being" and "infinite image" are not mathematical/scientific concepts, so YOU might as well be asking about leprechauns.
You're asking for an explanation of an imaginary event. Since both of these concepts could involve any number of contradictions you can logically come to any conclusion you want to.
ricorurik 2 years ago
In this video: Truth
Archael2 2 years ago 3
I wonder how this label perfect and imperfect seems to come up and applied to something which is so large, we have no frame of reference in any way to judge it.
To me, it just seems illogic to begin with the statement at all. On the other hand, I'm not left with the problem of explaining God's assumed creation.
ContinuumXT 2 years ago 2
whoops i meant what i don't agree with
helloseattle23 2 years ago
Now i don't disagree or agree with religion, people have the right to do or think whatever they want. What i don't disagree with,are christians forcing their beliefs on people. "If you do not baptize your children they will go to hell", you should not instill fear on people. That is hipocritical and i really really hate that.
helloseattle23 2 years ago
to be honest..i think religion was created because people need to have a reward for living good lives. Everything we do, we expect an outcome.Clean the house so we don't feel dirty, giving gifts so you feel nice. People think that every action deserves an outcome, so when we die..we're left with nothing. We have to create this "heaven" because people would be so depressed without the thought of 'someone' watching over them...you get what i'm saying?
helloseattle23 2 years ago 2
Very well said. Thumbs up. :)
FBWalshyFTW 2 years ago
The funny thing is that non-existance (death) really isn't much of a problem at all. As some great mind once said:
-"I didn't exist for billions of years untill my birth, and I wasn't bothered the slightest."
NichtDieseTone 2 years ago
The reason this world is nessesary is because its like an experiment that gives us the chance to make the right decisions in life and to be judged. Theres a lot more to Heaven then sin or pleasure which makes it logical to explain how someone with free will would not make that kind of decision.
grantapuslafsalot 2 years ago
Grantapuslafsalot, you're an idiot. Experiments? What kind of loving god would do that? If he can make a perfect world, why would he need to "test" us? If we only have this life to do god's will, WHY ARE WE FUCKING HERE ANYWAY? He could have just sent us straight to Heaven instead of creating this. Why do we HAVE to go through a trial before we meet our maker? Too many UNANSWERED questions to even believe in that shit. Oh, but we will know it all when we die, right? Bullshit. Grow up!
JOKERSFREAK 2 years ago 4
it's necessary to test mankind
in heaven we have free will but there is no more sin we can do whatever we want..not sure
kamalgilkesk 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
out of the heart the mouth speaks
your heart i see is full of vile
what will you say to god your maker at the judgement
will you make eternal life?
or everlasting fire?
you are anti christ in your feelings
valu777 2 years ago
valu77:
"your heart i see is full of vile"
1) Vile what? Did you mean bile?
2) You're an asshole.
"what will you say to god your maker at the judgement"?
1) I think, if Christianity is correct, tooltime could start with this video's argument as sufficient rational justification for doubting that hidden deity's existence.
2) In fact, if Christianity is correct, then based on the argument in this video and plenty more, it's not tooltime, but God, who's got some serious explaining to do.
VeryEvilPettingZoo 2 years ago 6
ugh... valu777.... you fail so much
Zer0BeaT7 2 years ago 2
Brilliant. Clear and convincing.
All christian "reasons" always boil down to excuses to attempt to justify the inadequacies of a supposedly flawless divinity.
ottocapicua 2 years ago
LMAO, raped by gods love....
mtlsoul 2 years ago
checkmate..or so it seems
i would love to just see a proper debate between some of the most known atheists/theists on youtube and see how it would resolve
^^
wolfninjakpjoker 2 years ago
you forgot to fill the description :D
viktorcaleis 2 years ago
The first human beings God created chose to sin and disobey his law, creating an imperfect world. The world was perfect at first. God DID create a perfect world, that's the entire point. Read the bible and you will understand that doctrine.
The world was perfect, the first human beings had the free will of either obeying or disobeying God...they chose the latter, here we have a world of sin. The wage of sin=death. And sin separates us from God. Hence, an imperfect world.
blahblahblahman 2 years ago
ok blahblahblah, that still means in heaven people are unable to disobey gods word.
Or you know, god all knowing and all, knew they would eat the fruit could not of put the tree there, or not created Satan.
Hes created two humans he knew would fail, and then punishes EVERYONE ELSE for his mistake.
Not to mention how narcissistic... Will forgive, rape, murder, child abuse, and theft... But don't believe?! You get tortured for eternity..
Wake the fuck up.
ThatLoudGuyMike 2 years ago
free will... that's it
hardrockstrat 2 years ago
so the world was perfect from the start? so does that mean that the first people to heaven ruined that world too? cuz heaven and earth were both perfect (im not sure perfection can occur 2 different ways or maybe im wrong idk), but this once perfect world was ruined by sinners so that means heaven is probably ruined too and we dont know it yet or some bullshit like that. lol
TooTuffShuff 2 years ago
who the hell is Jezuzfreek777 laughin my fuckin ass off
denWere 2 years ago
mabey perfection doesn't mean to never suffer, mabey perfection means complete
ShadowAlin 2 years ago
Comment removed
HallucinatingDawkins 2 years ago
Wait a second. What you are saying tooltime9901 is "If I were God I would do it this way.."
You are not God....and your "refutation" is not valid, nor has it answered a thing other than shown that you do not like the way it is.
Well, I do not like pain, sickness, suffering or death either, but the difference between you and I is that I accept God's love in Jesus Christ freely..and you, for some reason do not.
Ah, choices...aren't they great to make!
HallucinatingDawkins 2 years ago
You are missing the point. God created a world where evil is possible. He also created a perfect world. That means that God could have created just a perfect world.
God is enabling evil. Why?
Also, why create free will in a way that enables evil? Is there free will in heaven? If so, he could have made a perfect world with free will from the beggining. Do you understand this logic?
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago
The main point is that if Heaven is perfect that means in Heaven you have no free-will.
God has done a horrible job.
AoDTheAnonymousPH 2 years ago
Comment removed
HallucinatingDawkins 2 years ago
Hey tooltime9901, you ought to stop wasting your time with jezuzfreak777, and watch the latest train wreck of a youtube user, howtheworldworks. This guys is... indescribable! He's some neocon kid that seems to be auditioning for FOX news on his channel and he stares straight ahead unblinking (probably reading a prompt, or a note sheet) spouting archie bunker logic. TJ and thunderf00t has ripped on the guy and responded quite well to his "arguments" you ought to check him out.
SteevDragon67 2 years ago
Good point.
fc007 2 years ago
This is one of your best videos!
PS. could you remove comment rating? It's so annoying when someone gets enough thumb downs and then you can't see what stupid shit he wrote..
WoWaddict3d 2 years ago
In heaven all will be mindless zombies, playing the harp. (God probably enjoy harp music.)
Just so they don't notice how long they have to stay there.
It's for 'eternity' remember. :)
BelieveNoGod 2 years ago
Preach it, brother! Good stuff.
MikeOfKorea 2 years ago
Holy crap, this video was perfect. Thanks for this!
JackBz 2 years ago 5
This comment has received too many negative votes show
A few things:
1) In heaven, God will strengthen us to His power because we will then be "above the angels". We were not worthy of this before Christ and before we suffered the tempation/persecution/etc. of this world.
B) Evil is not necessary for free will in Heaven because we have already shown by persecution/temptation/etc. that we do not desire evil - we desire God. Thus, God will then grant us the power. In the G.O.E, we had not shown this devotion to God - evil was needed for FW.
SadChristian 2 years ago
Still removes free will, regardless of whether one desires it or not.
leninlikersclone 2 years ago 4
Failure of an attempt at logic.
666satanification666 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Nope
SadChristian 2 years ago
Nope? That's it?
Way to fill a stereotype.
PyroKoolaid 2 years ago