Thom Hartmann is misinformed and misleading. The Mike Wallace interview clip shown is from 1959, not "a few years before she died" in 1982. Also, Ayn Rand does not call for greed or the pursuit of money as the highest morality. Individual freedom and self-interest without forcing or harming other individuals is the highest morality.
This guy brought up some excellent points that I have not heard any Randriods refute.
When a group of cells becomes too selfish and does not also work for the welbeing of other cells around it, we call this cancer.
Her idea of a "superman" ( a man that killed and dismembered a 12 yr old girl) is complete and utter inability to feel empathy with the suffering of other people.
She received medicare and social security. By her own standards this makes her a parasite unworthy of being called human.
dmac333100 It appears to me by what I've seen and heard that Ayn Rand's whole philosophy is based upon the Aristocratic Monarchy Government of Russia before the Russian Revolution. The word human means one individual, the word humanity means a collective of individual humans. So there is a collective, a human collective. The Russian Aristocratic Monarchy failed, based on this John Gualt's way of government also failed. Ayn Rand's Idea is a Russian Monarchy re-run. It will fail now.
That is why if one respects nature, one must respect the spontaneous free market place, and allow the ecosystem to balance itself naturally, the way nature intended.
In short, laissez faire capitalism, as opposed to mercantilism/fascism/communism/welfare statism, is nature's way, and ought to be treated with reverence by nature lovers.
@thechinadesk uhh..what about the brain. Isn't that a major part of the human body? And doesn't it decide what stresses the body will endure, what nourishment it will receive...among other things? As you know, the body can't suddenly revolt from the brain's directives :P
Of course the brain is part of the human body. Who ever said it wasn't? The brain can choose to listen to the body's "market signals" as it should, or it can ride roughshod over them, the way totalitarian and authoritarian governments always do.
When that happens the body gets sick, or the "body politic" goes into imbalance and suffers the economic consequences.
If you act in your own self-interest this means you can donate to the charity of your choice, practice your own religion or not at all, marry who you want gay or straight, smoke marijuana if I want to, maintain privacy from the government, or start a small business that creates jobs. To the contrary, government is compromised by corporate-interests or special-interests. That's why government power must be limited, otherwise your own interests are compromised by billionaires with lobbyists.
Dude keep your collectivist propaganda in Russia where it belongs. You really don't get it reflects the poor life you are living with a philosophy that places u as the sacrificial lamb on the alter of socialism for their collective religion.
What bothers me the most about these online shouting matches in the comments sections of YouTube channels and other venues, is that the bottom line gets lost.
What is the bottom line?
Individual liberty.
Individual liberty, in practical terms, means freedom from the initiation of force by others.
The evil that men do can be boiled down to this single action. Violating the rights and liberty of a fellow human being, by initiating force against him, or threatening to do so.
Hartmann unwittingly validates the ideas he purports to refute.
How?
By creating straw men. His need to create straw men shows that he knows he cannot refute the ideas if they are presented accurately, without gross distortion.
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Ah Randroids- just admit- you're lifelong aspiration is to consume Rand's shit and call it delicious. For people that value the "individual" you all think alike.
Classical Greece, Rome, and largely the United States had a lot in common with Objectivism. The United States foundation was largely the product of two seemingly opposite philosophies, Objectivism and calvinism. The founders harmonized those systems for pragmatic purposes, which is why they're great.
Do whatever works to achieve, and objectivism achieves.
Objectivism teaches following one's rational self interest, which is by no means always money. For many people, it isn't money.
When the government interferes in the market too much, it becomes tough to tell what a man is honestly worth. Some so called "businessmen" are just parasitic beggars. Perhaps these men at United Health Care really do contribute, or perhaps they are just parasites.
Continued from previous comment . . . In fact, I recommend seeing the movie. I don't think you'll walk away from it with Thom Hartman's perverse prespective on Atlas Shrugged.
Thom you misrepresent Ayn Rand in this video. I do not propose to point out the many ways in which you do so (because I wouldn't derive any benefit from such an exercise). I just want to point out to those who are curious: consider reading the novel. For those who do, I think many will find it eye opening and inspiring, and most will find that Mr. Hartman does not accurately represent Ms. Rand, her ideas, or Atlas Shrugged.
No, I don't propose to point out to Mr. Hartman why he is incorrect, because those who are not open to reason are impervious to it. Therefore, doing so would be a waste of my time. That is what I meant by saying that I would not derive any benefit from such an action.
Also, I love Atlas Shrugged, so go screw yourself.
By the way, I find it amusing to hear a Liberal talk about a "shitty work of fiction." The entire modern Liberal ideology is a giant "shitty work of fiction."
@renaissanceman21c Nah, I personally laugh at mental midgets such as yourself that never grew up and worship a third rate fiction writer. “Two novels can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Fountainhead. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
He does not understand that there are different conceptions of selfishness (or he is evading the fact). In the sense Ayn Rand meant it, to be selfish was to preserve one's self as your first and foremost duty. You see it everywhere implicitly: "Take care of yourself" or "you have to help yourself first" or "don't let people walk all over you." And his statements about the serial killer are so dishonest its sick. I see him as extremely corrupt because of how he cannot argue with the truth.
@db11289 Hartmann's assertions about Rand's admiration for Hickman is well documented and even admitted by Rand in her journals. Google "Romancing the Stone-Cold Killer: Ayn Rand and William Hickman" by Michael Prescott.
@gnomechomskylives First, go read the journal entry yourself (all of it not just out of context clips). She writes that she does not admire Hickman. She abstracts one quality in him - remember she was emphatically against the initiation of force so it is not the "serial killer" part. Non of her published books have characters based off of the serial killer. Go to the sources of all Hartmann's clips and quotes of Ayn Rand and see what untruthful context dropping he is pulling on his listeners.
I've never read Rand. But I've heard a lot about her ideas. I have a question. If all the producers go to Galt's Gulch then who cleans their toilets? Do they bring enough loser non producers to do the actual work or do they use their super valuable time to do it themselves?
Thom Hartman is spewing bullshit. What an asshole.
That story started from some diary entry of Rand's where she was only describing certain aspects of his character, not admiring him as a person or saying he was anything but bad. For her to say otherwise would go against everything she stood for.
Thom Hartmann, you should be ashamed, but you lost your sense of shame a long time ago.
thanks for what you said, the elite promote it and they celebrate selfishess, as it's a philosophy that allows them to do what they want, that form of thinking allows the people in power to do what they want, as no one is paying any attencion. One thing the elite do not want is people judging how they behave, it's their world right, and as elites they can do what they dam well please- they're children also.
In a society of the socially concerned, those that are not?
But again following the way this system is working male role models are hardly easy to find and often getting worse, they'll be the good guy rambo or something :-)
Kiplins "If" is a good poem on being a man but even he doesnt really go far enought I think. Just leaves me singing "How many roads..." by bob dylan...
“[My hero is] very far from him, of course. The outside of Hickman, but not the inside. Much deeper and much more. A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me.” - Journals of Ayn Rand. It is well observed that leftists resort to smears and lies because they can't make a fuckn argument. I'm not surprised.
Thank you Thom for bringing Ayn Rand and this philosophy into the light of day. Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead are attractive to young, immature minds. Most people I know who read her works realized how juvenile her thinking really was after they got to be 25 - if not before. But to think that Paul Ryan is so enamored of her that he has his staffers read her, makes me kind of sick. Ayn Rand and objectivism lead to a capitalist Lord of the Flies society. Thanks for exposing her.
The whole reason why Ayn Rand used the word 'selfishness' to describe her ethics is to expose the pompous self-righteousness of the leftists who think they are on the side of justice and fairness. The debate was never about personal values but about clear thinking, but the leftists have no arguments so they have to presume moral defects in those who oppose socialism. Rand just gave the assclowns what they asked for, and in effect segregating those who are willing to listen. Pure genuis!
@truevoice08 Without all the recent discussion of Ayn Rand being a sociopath etc. I watched this interview a year ago and listened to just a few minutes of it. In that amount of time, I picked up on the double standard of her way of thinking. I also had this thought that she was a sociopath. Anyone who does follow her absolutely has no grounds to think of themselves as a Christian. She was absolutely the anti-thesis of Christianity.
Rand was actually asked by her fans if she was not secretly a Christian. She would virulently reject being called a Christian but the fact is that the Randian philosophy, properly understood, has a lot more in common with Christianity than Christianity has with Marxism or its bastard child ideologies of democracy and multiculturalism. The fact that leftists have to do smear jobs like this video shows a lot about which side is right.
You got me there. Democracy was there before Marxism. But Marxism advocates communism (public slavery or slavery of the individual to society) and democracy is nothing but soft communism since it assumes all property is common and just has to be voted on. So I would say they are all related.
Ownership of property is itself a myth. You "own" what you claim by force - either self-imposed or through agreement from the state. If someone takes what you say it yours you either fight them yourself or use the state (i.e. police, courts, etc). Even the atoms which make up your body are on temporary loan with 10% having been created in the Big Bang and the remaining 90% formed through nuclear fusion inside a long ago dead star. Think what ownership really means.
Yes, rebellious youths are attracted to her and shake it off when they get older. But some are attracted not because of immaturity but because of philosophical depth and they follow through those principles into old age. That is something the Ancient Greeks had that our democratic egalitarian culture is so lacking. What is popular today are shallow intellectual fashions like multiculturalism, democracy and Marxism or some other crap that will lead man to ruin.
@mscoyote50 Ayn Rand sat there in an interview with Mike Wallace beady dark eyes darting around spewing her anti-social filth taking in social security and treating her lung cancer with medicare. This is so typical of the true parasites, the sociopaths who seek every chance to pick the best fruits from the social garden but find it beneath them to water and fertilize its soil.
@wjksea I think you've hit it the nail on the head. It is truly sociopathic to celebrate total selfishness. She was an elitist and basically a proponent of total class war by the rich on the rest of us who don't think that the goal of being human is to earn as much money as you can at the expense of others.
@wjksea What is so amazing to me is that these so-called libertarians go on and on about freedom and liberty of the individual, when the only people who have any kind of freedom or liberty under this kind of philosophy are the rich and powerful - who take their power only from money - much of it inherited - the rest stolen from the people who work for them who are paid crap. This is what Paul Ryan and his buddies want for the US. A society run by the greediest of the greedy. It's sickening.
This piece is full of quick edits and absolute lies by Hartmann that obscure what Rand actually said. It's his personal view of Rand (we all know that he's a leftist pig of the highest order, and NO, that's not a good thing) and so it is very easy to dismiss this as nothing more than a dishonest attempt at dialogue with an unprepared, mousy opponent. He thrives when people won't call him on his BS.
So it turns out that conservative gasbag, Ayn Rand, collected Social Security benefits on her ex-husband's Social Security account using an assumed name to hide her identity. What a total poseur. Rand was the original Teabagger Con.
All of the quotes this man used were taken out of context. Watch the entire interview to see what I am talking about. Not only did he use clips out of context, but he omitted parts of certain quotes. Ask yourself why someone or some group of people would try to trick you, rather than provide facts to the contrary of what they are arguing...
@seanone23 The fallback of a brainless Randriod- say it's all out of context. Those are all direct quotes. Provide evidence to counter or kindly shut the fuck up.
@traffik0001 I can tell by your vernacular that you are clearly intelligent and you don't NEED me to say this again. I will however reiterate my original point by saying, Watch the entire interview. At 2:20 there are two questions asked back to back from 2 different part of the interview... Watch "Ayn Rand Mike Wallace Interview 1959 part 1" to get the full scope and let Ayn Rand defend herself, since most of what this jackass Hatmann was asking was already answered in the Mike Wallace interview
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@seanone23 Ah- so you're a sociopath just like Rand herself since anyone who has a shred of empathy will see how insane her beliefs are. Please kill yourself then. You are using up valuable oxygen for the rest of us.
@traffik0001 Way to dodge the point I made. You are a moron who has no understanding for what empathy is. You think forcing someone to be charitable to another is empathetic? It is theft, plain and simple. You are clearly too stupid to understand the principles of Rand's philosophy. You calling me a sociopath because I agree with Rand is no different than ignorant morons calling people racist for disagreeing with Obama... It is such a joke, and you need to open your eyes.
@seanone23 You've made no point other that to show you are a sociopathic monster that the world would be better off without. Being called a moron by you is a compliment when you clearly would need miles to climb to be at the level of a moron yourself. Rand's philosophy is perfect for you, someone who can't think and doesn't question. You are a perfect Randriod. How does it feel to be such a idiot who fumes over the works of bad fiction writer?
@traffik0001 The point was that the clips Hartmann shows are edited together and the quotes taken out of context. I am a sociopath because I believe that people should be responsible for themselves instead of depending on handouts from everyone else? You clearly don't even understand the philosophies which you claim to hate... You are 180° out of cycle, meaning you are ass backwards. You think Rand's philosophies are for people who can't think? I say those like you, who hate them cannot think...
@seanone23 Oh please, retard. You are a sociopath because you clearly lack empathy. The world will be better off without you in it. And why would one need to understand something that's against everything that's humane, just and plain and simply counter to intelligence (ie- objectivism)? Over and over you don't provide evidence and just spew stupidity.
Put it simply, if you had enough faith in you beliefs then why are you so PO'd, Randriod? Simple minds are so easy to get a rise out of.
@traffik0001 Oh really? your way of government regulation and "forced volunteerism" is bankrupting this country and destroying the society. Open your eyes, you are the one who is out of touch. If you understood what Ayn Rand was saying, you might agree... but you don't.
Ayn Rand is now the idol for the Republican Sociopaths that are now trying to ruin this country. Rand was a Sociopath with deep seeded mental problems, and anyone thinking she is someone to follow and idolize will be in for a rude awakening.
@Wolfenspitz Sadly, Paul Ryan is one of those who idolizes her and her philosophy is what guides him to cut Medicare and Medicaid to pay for cutting the taxes of millionaires and billionaires. What amazes me is how these people who claim to be Christians and go on and on about it, follow the ravings of a self proclaimed atheist. I have nothing against atheists, since I am one, but I find it kind of ironic that they are so self righteous about being Christians - yet their "god" is an atheist
Ayn's a product of a totalitarian horrible period in human history; and her ideas are likewise reproductions of the context. In such periods, human growth is stifled and people are reduced to children by the oppressive patriarchy. Her philosophy is just a byproduct of her own infantile reduction, and nothing more. That a political party of infantile morons loves her work is unsurprising. PS.. my dog is smarter than that cow thom interviewed - are intelligent people that hard to find?
@cheekieweekie Nonsense. Ayn's work represents personal liberty and individual responsibility. It is the opposite of an oppressive dictatorship. It is total freedom. The Constitution was drafted to preserve the type of government Ayn Rand talks about. Too bad the Constitution has been trampled... The reason that girl was interviewed is because she is weak. If someone intelligent with any insight into Ayn Rand's work was being interviewed, they would've owned Thom Hartmann and he knows that.
@seanone23 I respect the romantic values of liberty and individual responsibility, and myself am a small "l" libertarian, in that i would never vote for a party that associates with republicans; so i am quite sympathetic to Ayn. I share Ayn's romantic angst, but the books are simplistic in their black and white characters. I love the individualism, john steward mill's liberty is a more considerate work in that regard. The post ww2 us superstate will collapse like the USSR its opposite.
@cheekieweekie Romantic values? These ideals are the cornerstone of a free society. Simplistic how? I am not sure what detail or "grey area" there should be when you speak of characters representing liberty and personal responsibility.
@seanone23 Even Ron Paul in the google interview explains the the pure libertarian dream is unrealistic, and that the subsidies that have created structural dependency cannot be simply abandoned... i understand the attraction of abstract idealism, but cummon, its not pragmatic, nor politically expedient, however much the tea party wishes to coopt it. IF ayn rand were living, those tea party wankers would eschew her for her real political views. Grey area is the world we live in.
@cheekieweekie What does any of what you just wrote have to do with anything we are talking about? What Ron Paul was saying is that we cannot abandon people who have grown to depend on subsidies without giving them a chance to support themselves over time... That is not to say that we cannot eventually live in a purely libertarian society. I am not talking about party affiliation, I am talking about individual liberty which is something all people should be able to embrace...
@seanone23 I hear ya, bro, but its not gonna happen in our lifetimes, or in the 7-8 billion peoples world going forward either. I give up whipping a dead horse. Ayn's ideals are heartfelt and *right* - no argument - just they're ideals, and we live in a real world. The 2 party corporate socialist system will NEVER let go of power - i'm out personally, screw em. Bless you and those who want real freedom - do it in your own life, this world is a lost cause.
Ayn Rand is a Jew. Capitalism is another guise for usury which was banned by Christianity. Labour precedes capital/wealth/money. If the "rich" quit, then the labourers would take their skills and labour and work for themselves. The capital the "rich" pay the labourers only has worth in so much as the poor are willing to work for it.
Look at animals, the successful species organize themselves into social order (i.e. humans). The ones that are selfish kill one another.
@harveybirdmannequin WHAT!?! Who cares if she is Jewish? Capitalism is the only legitimate form of trade. As soon as you regulate it, it is no longer fair trade. Not sure what you are talking about laborers?
Only animals with social order are successful? They ALL have some sort of social order and none kill one another as much as people do. WTF are you talking about? Please be at least semi-reasonable...
America DOES have a **REVENUE*** problem which SHOULD be a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY. Since Reagan, REPUBLICAN CLOWN GOD, the GOP AGENDA has been to REDUCE REVENUE in order to facilitate PRIVATIZATION or ELIMINATION of programs such as MEDICARE,SOCIAL SECURITY,UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS& others.PRIVATIZATION would be followed by an INCREASE in the costs of these services thus generating HUGE PROFITS at citizens' expense.INSTEAD of generating revenue REPUBLICAN$ want the NEEDIEST to do with LESS.
Thom wants to know about an historical example where Ayn Rand's ideas worked. For a time, the American colonies and the early U.S. were a lot of like Galt's Gulch in relation to Europe. Millions of Europe's most productive people moved here and did better than they could have at home. For other examples, consider how Spain destroyed its economy by expelling Jews, and France damaged its economy by persecuting Huguenots. Some people are simply better at the tasks of living than others.
@JulianConrad666 Of course they did! If they needed land to do something they just stole it, land that was fertile and rich in natural resources. Europe was overcrowded and poor in natural resources. IMO that is at least a big a factor, probably much bigger.
Thom Hartmann makes my skin crawl. He's picked an easy straw woman to beat up on (I mean Rand, not this vacuous chick); but Rand saw enough of the truth, unfortunately mixed up with some screwy notions, that conservatives feel she must have been on to something. Ironically there's an article in The Telegraph today about how China's new rich want to relocate to other countries because they're afraid that politics could turn against them and lead to confiscations. Chinese Atlases shrugging?
Yeah, right! Some rich scumbag who only knows how to delegate his orders to people who "work under him" would know how better to survive than the people who actually engage in the day-to-day grunt work and have the practical skills and talents to actually survive. That's a laugh.
@ORGDNR "Out of context"- the fallback of the braindead Randroids. How is it that you can you speak with Ayn Rand's festering cock in your mouth 24/7?
"That's not what Ayn Rand was talking about!" Every time this chick opens her mouth, you find out she's an intellectual lightweight, who's left real history and real economics behind.
Notice how in this fictional reality you don't see evidence of what must be there for the tale to hold. As the CEOs are oblivious to all their employees who run their companies, mine their resources, produce their goods, Ayn Rand and today's libertarian/corporatist/Republicans are oblivious to the entire human and natural substrate that supports their world. It's not just sad, it's truly frightening to see this sociopathology spreading among the young and turning them into unreasoned robots.
@mblockhart1 How can you lump Ayn Rand and Libertarians in with Republicans and Corporatists? By the way, there are plenty of Democrat Corporatists as well. If you understood Ayn Rand all, you would grasp that there could be no Corporatists in the Ayn Rand philosophy. Corporatists have emerged only since government intervention in and oversight of private markets and the introduction of corporate lobbyists. You are the one who sounds like an unreasoning robot. Try reading Ayn Rand as a start.
It was our ability to cooperate that enabled our species to rise to dominance. The human intellect is ultimately useless if we don't use it to coordinate actions beneficial to our clan, tribe, city, nation, world. Rand was a moron, I hope her death was painful.
@mojosideburns Where in her philosophy do you find anything that even remotely hints that she doesn't believe in cooperation? She is EXPRESSLY stating that you should only do things that benefit the people that you know deserve it. Why should I be forced to support someone who may not deserve my support? Because someone like you says so? By the way, to wish ill will and pain on ANYONE, shows your true nature and that you wouldn't deserve support, which explains your disdain for her philosophy.
@seanone23 But she believed that the only people who deserve it are the people who don't care about others. She idealized a child-murdering kidnapper as her "superman"-how twisted is that? That is enough for me, I don't read her for the same reason I don't read Hitler, evil is evil. I have no fear of being contaminated by her bullshit, I just feel it would be a horrible waste of time.
@mojosideburns That is NOT what she believed. She believed that she would decide who deserved her love, not the government through taxation. She did not idealize a child murderer, only his ability to separate his emotions from his calculations. The term superman just means that he was able to do something most could not... Are you really comparing Ayn Rand to Hitler? Wow, and to make these comparisons based on nothing... How can one critique something they haven't read?
@seanone23 Only a deranged and heartless person could see someone who could do something like that as validizing her philosophy. While it may not inherently force one to abandon the philosophy, it should at least cause them to search for a better example. And yes I am. Evil to the core, just more passive. True implementation of her philosophy would also result in incalculable suffering, just more drawn out. The dangers of overly centralized power apply to the financial sector also.
You clearly do not understand the philosophies of Ayn Rand, and I cannot expect you to since you haven't read anything she has written. You are an ignorant person. Only an ignorant person would make statements on something that they clearly do not understand. How can you presume to understand the outcomes of implementing her philosophies when you don't even understand her philosophies? Overly centralized power? Do you understand what individual liberty is? Go be a troll elsewhere
@seanone23 Far from ignorant. Too much money in too few hands=en economic dictatorship. You're probably some rich suburban douchebag, well I live in a neighborhood you'd probably be scared to drive through much less stagger home at 1 or 2 in the morning after putting in 9 or 10 hours in a factory. I don't want your help, but I know people who absolutely need OUR help and you give it or you will have a revolution, no people will stand idly by while their children starve.
@mojosideburns Government intervention is what created this climate. Exactly contrary to what Ayn Rand's philosophies state. The people you speak of NEED our help because the government we currently have in place, has made it VERY expensive for production to take place here in the US. I am not going to get into it, I am not here to educate ignorant people. And YES, you are ignorant. How do you talk badly about something you don't understand and then claim not to be ignorant? Explain that please.
@seanone23 I disagree. It is their greed that has. They are making record profitsand enjoying comparatively (both historically and internationally) low income tax rates, and while corprate tax rates are admittedly high most of the biggest corp.'s pay little or no taxes, but they are still outsourcing jobs. The problem is they have bought our govt. The solution is not to eliminate govt, not yet anyways. Let both act as a counterbalance to each other, until they wither away.
@seanone23 Why would you ask for an explanation from anyone when you have already determined that you are the one who knows it all and the rest are ignorant?
@wjksea Do you see any explanation in any of those responses? This person admitted they have never read Ayn Rand, therefore how could he/she form an opinion on Rand's philosophies. I don't claim to know it all, nor did I claim anyone other than the person I was talking to was ignorant. Please quote where I even alluded that I am "the one who knows it all and the rest are ignorant." Do not try to paint a false picture of my intent. Thanks.
@mojosideburns The Rander's like to pretend that their philosophy is about freedom and liberty - and maybe some of them do truly believe in those concepts. But the true result of their philosophy is totalitarianism of the worst kind. The dictatorship of the rich is their goal and we're seeing them try to implement it right now in the form of the selfish Ryan budget, which takes money from needed social programs to give tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires. Good on Thom for exposing them.
@mscoyote50 Thank you. Laissez-faire economics can cause nothing but suffering. They complain about gov't coercion through taxes; let taxes and social programs go away and they'll miss the good old days of paying taxes.
@truevoice08 LOL. An objectivist trying to call someone unvirtuous and uncivilized. My Grandfather was the most brilliant and viruous person I've ever known, though we disagreed on much. But he despised Rand more than he hated Marx, he said Marx would be good if it could work.
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas,alien philosophies,and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people/Liberty without Learning is always in peril and Learning without Liberty is always in vain."-JFK Google your rep,w/1of these words:Constitutional Government-Sound Money-Noninterventionist Foreign Policy-Individual Liberty-Free Markets
Actually we have a disease which afflicts millions of people where they are unable to form empath connection with others nor can consider other people motives or emotions.. It's called Autism, is that the Rand superman? Hmm seems kinda fragile, in a world of normals this superman wouldn't do very well trying to kill/step on others all their lives..They would be ostracized and stoned before they achieve this mythical uber status Rand talks about..
they already have developed a mathmatical system that promotes Psycopaths as normal, Game theory- John Nash and he got a nobel prize for it, This kind of thinking has been increasing and increasing, It's Nietzschism the superman, Fascism, law of the jungle and lots of other sick little lies certain people want to tell themselves to justify themselves as an elite running everything and treating everyone underneath as they want to. There are all criminals anyway- Cleptocracy.
Isnt it Pig! Dont worry you and you sick little piggie friends will be in prison one day, just have to get society of people that are not criminal first, right, dread it dont you! Coward!
@099749 You have explained the Rand philosophy perfectly. Thank you. It's total elitism masquerading as freedom and liberty for the individual. What saddens me is that there are so many impressionable young people out there who are caught up in this thinking without realizing that it leads only to fascism and oppression - the rich get richer while the poor become destitute. I guess they see themselves as part of that elite. That's scary. Why would anyone celebrate selfishness?
I think you'll see esp with men, that they see it as being a "man"- tough or strong. They see being a man as little more than being a thug, if that is a man then the 8 year old bully in the play ground is a man, it's actually quiet cowardly as it's fear driven- just as the 8 year old bully is really a scared little boy.
Far more to being a man then simply being strong and tough. But that notion of strenght attracts, as a form of self impowerment for the young I think.
9.43- "Americans meet your new rulers" there a bunch of animals that think you're good to be treated like shit and steped on! They rule- they are: THE ELITE SUPER PIGS!
8.24- just the sort of thing a commie would say "they have never been implimentent" So they could work.
Ayn Rand is a fascist, an elitist, an extremist and her ideas are sad and sick really, a society of the jungle were only the elites that have jungle protection have an form of defence.
@jimmycrackedcorn226 "to do their work" meaning -> pressing buttons and giving ambiguous instructions to already existing managerial structures. Its new wannabe aristocracy, plain and simple.
@MarkoKraguljac Yes. Exactly. Hahaha. CEOs and the super rich do fuck all. The only reason they're there is because of their past generations' money, or pure dumb luck. The people at the bottom do all the work.
@jimmycrackedcorn226 Thom Hartmann is comparing a situation (America now) that would not exist in Ayn Rand's philosophy. CEO's would not make billions and just anyone couldn't be a CEO because there would be no market manipulation by corrupt paid off government officials. Ayn Rand predicted the eventual economic collapse of America in that interview with Mike Wallace that Hartmann is quoting from. And guess what... It's happening right now!
Well, Ayn Rand certainly did create a seductive theoretical framework. But as the saying goes, the road to hell is pawed with good intentions..
Despite her advanced theories, she probably did suffer from brain abnormalities that made her incapable of empathy. And if the PCL-R test for psychopathy (or MRI scans) had been available in the 50's, she may well have been identified as a sociopath.
@schatz87 Incapable of empathy? Because she thinks people should earn love? Because she believes some people are unworthy of HER love? How is she a sociopath for believing in Individual Liberty and Free Markets? Is she a sociopath because she wants the option to choose whether to be charitable and who to be charitable to? I question your own intentions when questioning these ideals... "Forced Charity" is non existant. It is an oxymoron.
@seanone23 Nice try. Ayn wasn't saying unworthy of HER love. You added the word "her" to make it more palatable. She was saying unworthy of love. She also based her heroes on a psychopath who dismembered a child because she admired his brutality. And no one uses the term "forced charity" but people like you. The rest of us call it "being a part of society". The same ideas that make a bigger man punching you to death rend Ayn Rand moot.
@JaySBeeable No, I didn't add anything. How could you believe someone who promotes personal liberty and accountability would presume to tell another who they should love. She is saying that we as individuals should be deciding who we support and therefore love. She didn't base her heroes on a psychopath, just on his ability to separate emotions. Being part of society? Does that include making no contribution, but taking limitlessly? Have you ever read any of Ayn Rand's work? Clearly not.
Social Darwinism...The slim percent of a percent of the very very richest say to everyone else in our society...."If you can't make it in this game (and I've rigged it by the way) it is simply the order of things that YOU PERISH. I have no obligation to you." Disgusting to the core! The total opposite of human civilization! Really, an evil fantasy of unlimited power and greed.
In Ayn Rand's philosophy it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to "rig the game." If government and economics remained mutually exclusive, there would be no monopolies or "rigged games." There couldn't be. The point is to look out for yourself first and THEN help people VOLUNTARILY who you know deserve the help. You tell me even one service, other than National Defense, that can be better provided by government than UNREGULATED private industry.
@seanone23 Silly braindead Randriod, I hope you love living in a world of unregulated food, water, medications, and never forget that your Randroid utopia wouldn't allow you to use that computer that you used to type that message - a computer that had minimum safety government regulations on it to make sure that you don't get electrocuted each time you turn it on or type a single keystroke.
@traffik0001 Unregulated food, water, and medicine? You mean like EVERYWHERE in the entire world did prior to the inception of the FDA? You moron. If computers electrocuted people, the company that made them would go out of business. Why? Because people wouldn't a buy a product that killed them. It is in that companies' best interest to make a computer that doesn't electrocute people. In our current system, if the company was going out of business, the gov't would bail them out with our money.
@traffik0001 BTW... since you injected yourself into a conversation that didn't include you, why dont you answer my challenge? YOU tell me even one service, other than National Defense, that can be better provided by government than UNREGULATED private industry.
Thom Hartmann is misinformed and misleading. The Mike Wallace interview clip shown is from 1959, not "a few years before she died" in 1982. Also, Ayn Rand does not call for greed or the pursuit of money as the highest morality. Individual freedom and self-interest without forcing or harming other individuals is the highest morality.
sedd42o 1 month ago
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Ayn Rand was a sociopath.
PurpleHoneyBear 5 months ago
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This guy brought up some excellent points that I have not heard any Randriods refute.
When a group of cells becomes too selfish and does not also work for the welbeing of other cells around it, we call this cancer.
Her idea of a "superman" ( a man that killed and dismembered a 12 yr old girl) is complete and utter inability to feel empathy with the suffering of other people.
She received medicare and social security. By her own standards this makes her a parasite unworthy of being called human.
ryan84160 6 months ago
dmac333100 It appears to me by what I've seen and heard that Ayn Rand's whole philosophy is based upon the Aristocratic Monarchy Government of Russia before the Russian Revolution. The word human means one individual, the word humanity means a collective of individual humans. So there is a collective, a human collective. The Russian Aristocratic Monarchy failed, based on this John Gualt's way of government also failed. Ayn Rand's Idea is a Russian Monarchy re-run. It will fail now.
dmac333100 6 months ago
I agree with the man. Selfishness brought us her!
FleshMob 7 months ago
This is really misleading. Just spend 5 minutes reading the Wikipedia entry on Objectivism, and you'll see how misleading this guy really is.
horvay 8 months ago
I thought Ayn Rand was anti-capitalist.
TheRealDinner 8 months ago
Between 5:00 and 5:30 Hartmann talks about the human body as a sort of ecosystem.
Ironically, he is dead on, but not in the way he means.
The human body is indeed a marvelous ecosystem that works like a civil society, through cooperation, specialization, and the division of labor.
Both the human body and civil society (absent coercion) are ecosystems that function precisely like the free market place.
thechinadesk 9 months ago
@thechinadesk
That is why if one respects nature, one must respect the spontaneous free market place, and allow the ecosystem to balance itself naturally, the way nature intended.
In short, laissez faire capitalism, as opposed to mercantilism/fascism/communism/welfare statism, is nature's way, and ought to be treated with reverence by nature lovers.
thechinadesk 9 months ago
@thechinadesk uhh..what about the brain. Isn't that a major part of the human body? And doesn't it decide what stresses the body will endure, what nourishment it will receive...among other things? As you know, the body can't suddenly revolt from the brain's directives :P
radscorpion8 8 months ago
@radscorpion8
Of course the brain is part of the human body. Who ever said it wasn't? The brain can choose to listen to the body's "market signals" as it should, or it can ride roughshod over them, the way totalitarian and authoritarian governments always do.
When that happens the body gets sick, or the "body politic" goes into imbalance and suffers the economic consequences.
The analogy holds.
thechinadesk 8 months ago
@radscorpion8
I invite you to glance over my essay, "The Biggest Obstacle to Freedom"
Google "The China Desk Shawshank Redemption"
We may well be on the same side. I hope so.
thechinadesk 8 months ago
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If you act in your own self-interest this means you can donate to the charity of your choice, practice your own religion or not at all, marry who you want gay or straight, smoke marijuana if I want to, maintain privacy from the government, or start a small business that creates jobs. To the contrary, government is compromised by corporate-interests or special-interests. That's why government power must be limited, otherwise your own interests are compromised by billionaires with lobbyists.
ggadguy 9 months ago
Dude keep your collectivist propaganda in Russia where it belongs. You really don't get it reflects the poor life you are living with a philosophy that places u as the sacrificial lamb on the alter of socialism for their collective religion.
LibertyJedi 9 months ago
Put simply, virtue is leaving other people alone.
Vice is refusing to leave other people alone, and initiating force against them, or threatening to do so.
thechinadesk 9 months ago
What bothers me the most about these online shouting matches in the comments sections of YouTube channels and other venues, is that the bottom line gets lost.
What is the bottom line?
Individual liberty.
Individual liberty, in practical terms, means freedom from the initiation of force by others.
The evil that men do can be boiled down to this single action. Violating the rights and liberty of a fellow human being, by initiating force against him, or threatening to do so.
thechinadesk 9 months ago
Ms. Carey does a pretty admirable job of representing the individualist/capitalist camp.
She rebuts Hartmann with cool equanimity, demonstrating quiet confidence in the rightness of her beliefs, without rancor.
I'm tempted to say she's a better spokesman for individualism/capitalism than Rand!
thechinadesk 9 months ago
Ayn Rand was one sick puppy. Not to mention a hypocrite (collecting public benefits.)
OuTofJoY 9 months ago
Hartmann unwittingly validates the ideas he purports to refute.
How?
By creating straw men. His need to create straw men shows that he knows he cannot refute the ideas if they are presented accurately, without gross distortion.
thechinadesk 10 months ago 6
@thechinadesk Point to straw man or kindly shut the fuck up.
traffik0001 9 months ago
Ayn Rand, not the reporter, though shes pretty unintelligent too
simonkism 10 months ago
hahahahahahahahah, what a pathetic crazy chick lol.
simonkism 10 months ago
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Ah Randroids- just admit- you're lifelong aspiration is to consume Rand's shit and call it delicious. For people that value the "individual" you all think alike.
traffik0001 10 months ago
@8:24,
Classical Greece, Rome, and largely the United States had a lot in common with Objectivism. The United States foundation was largely the product of two seemingly opposite philosophies, Objectivism and calvinism. The founders harmonized those systems for pragmatic purposes, which is why they're great.
Do whatever works to achieve, and objectivism achieves.
MegaAstrodude 10 months ago
@5:01,
Stockholders can organize and change the board of directors and fire the CEO any time.
MegaAstrodude 10 months ago
@4:21,
Objectivism teaches following one's rational self interest, which is by no means always money. For many people, it isn't money.
When the government interferes in the market too much, it becomes tough to tell what a man is honestly worth. Some so called "businessmen" are just parasitic beggars. Perhaps these men at United Health Care really do contribute, or perhaps they are just parasites.
MegaAstrodude 10 months ago 2
Continued from previous comment . . . In fact, I recommend seeing the movie. I don't think you'll walk away from it with Thom Hartman's perverse prespective on Atlas Shrugged.
renaissanceman21c 10 months ago
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renaissanceman21c 10 months ago
Thom you misrepresent Ayn Rand in this video. I do not propose to point out the many ways in which you do so (because I wouldn't derive any benefit from such an exercise). I just want to point out to those who are curious: consider reading the novel. For those who do, I think many will find it eye opening and inspiring, and most will find that Mr. Hartman does not accurately represent Ms. Rand, her ideas, or Atlas Shrugged.
renaissanceman21c 10 months ago 10
@renaissanceman21c You don't "propose to point out" simply because you can't. Stop basing your life on a shitty work of fiction.
traffik0001 9 months ago
@traffik0001
No, I don't propose to point out to Mr. Hartman why he is incorrect, because those who are not open to reason are impervious to it. Therefore, doing so would be a waste of my time. That is what I meant by saying that I would not derive any benefit from such an action.
Also, I love Atlas Shrugged, so go screw yourself.
By the way, I find it amusing to hear a Liberal talk about a "shitty work of fiction." The entire modern Liberal ideology is a giant "shitty work of fiction."
renaissanceman21c 9 months ago
@renaissanceman21c "No, I don't propose to point out to Mr. Hartman why he is incorrect"
Because you can't. Thanks for that. Now go rot Randriod.
And unlike you Randriod, I have enough of an endowment to "screw myself".
traffik0002 9 months ago
@traffik0002 You guys hate Ayn Rand because she shows what a bunch of wretched bastards you are.
renaissanceman21c 9 months ago
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@renaissanceman21c Nah, I personally laugh at mental midgets such as yourself that never grew up and worship a third rate fiction writer. “Two novels can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Fountainhead. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
traffik0002 9 months ago
@traffik0002 "Nah, I personally laugh at mental midgets such as yourself that never grew up and worship a third rate fiction writer."
Oh yeah, show me the magnitude of your mental gigantism because you and your side just have a tremendous wealth of intelligence and great ideas.
renaissanceman21c 8 months ago
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renaissanceman21c 10 months ago
He does not understand that there are different conceptions of selfishness (or he is evading the fact). In the sense Ayn Rand meant it, to be selfish was to preserve one's self as your first and foremost duty. You see it everywhere implicitly: "Take care of yourself" or "you have to help yourself first" or "don't let people walk all over you." And his statements about the serial killer are so dishonest its sick. I see him as extremely corrupt because of how he cannot argue with the truth.
db11289 10 months ago
@db11289 Hartmann's assertions about Rand's admiration for Hickman is well documented and even admitted by Rand in her journals. Google "Romancing the Stone-Cold Killer: Ayn Rand and William Hickman" by Michael Prescott.
gnomechomskylives 10 months ago
@gnomechomskylives First, go read the journal entry yourself (all of it not just out of context clips). She writes that she does not admire Hickman. She abstracts one quality in him - remember she was emphatically against the initiation of force so it is not the "serial killer" part. Non of her published books have characters based off of the serial killer. Go to the sources of all Hartmann's clips and quotes of Ayn Rand and see what untruthful context dropping he is pulling on his listeners.
db11289 10 months ago
I've never read Rand. But I've heard a lot about her ideas. I have a question. If all the producers go to Galt's Gulch then who cleans their toilets? Do they bring enough loser non producers to do the actual work or do they use their super valuable time to do it themselves?
susanfrom 10 months ago
Thom Hartman is spewing bullshit. What an asshole.
That story started from some diary entry of Rand's where she was only describing certain aspects of his character, not admiring him as a person or saying he was anything but bad. For her to say otherwise would go against everything she stood for.
Thom Hartmann, you should be ashamed, but you lost your sense of shame a long time ago.
MoneyIsSilver 10 months ago 2
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"@mscoyote50 cont..
thanks for what you said, the elite promote it and they celebrate selfishess, as it's a philosophy that allows them to do what they want, that form of thinking allows the people in power to do what they want, as no one is paying any attencion. One thing the elite do not want is people judging how they behave, it's their world right, and as elites they can do what they dam well please- they're children also.
In a society of the socially concerned, those that are not?
099749 10 months ago
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@mscoyote50 cont...
But again following the way this system is working male role models are hardly easy to find and often getting worse, they'll be the good guy rambo or something :-)
Kiplins "If" is a good poem on being a man but even he doesnt really go far enought I think. Just leaves me singing "How many roads..." by bob dylan...
099749 10 months ago
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“[My hero is] very far from him, of course. The outside of Hickman, but not the inside. Much deeper and much more. A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me.” - Journals of Ayn Rand. It is well observed that leftists resort to smears and lies because they can't make a fuckn argument. I'm not surprised.
truevoice08 10 months ago
Thank you Thom for bringing Ayn Rand and this philosophy into the light of day. Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead are attractive to young, immature minds. Most people I know who read her works realized how juvenile her thinking really was after they got to be 25 - if not before. But to think that Paul Ryan is so enamored of her that he has his staffers read her, makes me kind of sick. Ayn Rand and objectivism lead to a capitalist Lord of the Flies society. Thanks for exposing her.
mscoyote50 10 months ago
The whole reason why Ayn Rand used the word 'selfishness' to describe her ethics is to expose the pompous self-righteousness of the leftists who think they are on the side of justice and fairness. The debate was never about personal values but about clear thinking, but the leftists have no arguments so they have to presume moral defects in those who oppose socialism. Rand just gave the assclowns what they asked for, and in effect segregating those who are willing to listen. Pure genuis!
truevoice08 10 months ago
@truevoice08 Without all the recent discussion of Ayn Rand being a sociopath etc. I watched this interview a year ago and listened to just a few minutes of it. In that amount of time, I picked up on the double standard of her way of thinking. I also had this thought that she was a sociopath. Anyone who does follow her absolutely has no grounds to think of themselves as a Christian. She was absolutely the anti-thesis of Christianity.
wjksea 10 months ago
Rand was actually asked by her fans if she was not secretly a Christian. She would virulently reject being called a Christian but the fact is that the Randian philosophy, properly understood, has a lot more in common with Christianity than Christianity has with Marxism or its bastard child ideologies of democracy and multiculturalism. The fact that leftists have to do smear jobs like this video shows a lot about which side is right.
truevoice08 10 months ago
@truevoice08 How is democracy an offshoot of Marxism if democracy was invented by the Greeks many centuries ago?
twistfinger 10 months ago
You got me there. Democracy was there before Marxism. But Marxism advocates communism (public slavery or slavery of the individual to society) and democracy is nothing but soft communism since it assumes all property is common and just has to be voted on. So I would say they are all related.
truevoice08 10 months ago
@truevoice08
Ownership of property is itself a myth. You "own" what you claim by force - either self-imposed or through agreement from the state. If someone takes what you say it yours you either fight them yourself or use the state (i.e. police, courts, etc). Even the atoms which make up your body are on temporary loan with 10% having been created in the Big Bang and the remaining 90% formed through nuclear fusion inside a long ago dead star. Think what ownership really means.
davwhitt 10 months ago
Yes, rebellious youths are attracted to her and shake it off when they get older. But some are attracted not because of immaturity but because of philosophical depth and they follow through those principles into old age. That is something the Ancient Greeks had that our democratic egalitarian culture is so lacking. What is popular today are shallow intellectual fashions like multiculturalism, democracy and Marxism or some other crap that will lead man to ruin.
truevoice08 10 months ago
@mscoyote50 Ayn Rand sat there in an interview with Mike Wallace beady dark eyes darting around spewing her anti-social filth taking in social security and treating her lung cancer with medicare. This is so typical of the true parasites, the sociopaths who seek every chance to pick the best fruits from the social garden but find it beneath them to water and fertilize its soil.
wjksea 10 months ago
@wjksea I think you've hit it the nail on the head. It is truly sociopathic to celebrate total selfishness. She was an elitist and basically a proponent of total class war by the rich on the rest of us who don't think that the goal of being human is to earn as much money as you can at the expense of others.
mscoyote50 10 months ago
@wjksea What is so amazing to me is that these so-called libertarians go on and on about freedom and liberty of the individual, when the only people who have any kind of freedom or liberty under this kind of philosophy are the rich and powerful - who take their power only from money - much of it inherited - the rest stolen from the people who work for them who are paid crap. This is what Paul Ryan and his buddies want for the US. A society run by the greediest of the greedy. It's sickening.
mscoyote50 10 months ago
This piece is full of quick edits and absolute lies by Hartmann that obscure what Rand actually said. It's his personal view of Rand (we all know that he's a leftist pig of the highest order, and NO, that's not a good thing) and so it is very easy to dismiss this as nothing more than a dishonest attempt at dialogue with an unprepared, mousy opponent. He thrives when people won't call him on his BS.
yweffingnitemare 10 months ago
book written in a time that was relevant for its time ...no more no less.
mobilefreek 10 months ago
So it turns out that conservative gasbag, Ayn Rand, collected Social Security benefits on her ex-husband's Social Security account using an assumed name to hide her identity. What a total poseur. Rand was the original Teabagger Con.
AtlasShruggery 10 months ago
All of the quotes this man used were taken out of context. Watch the entire interview to see what I am talking about. Not only did he use clips out of context, but he omitted parts of certain quotes. Ask yourself why someone or some group of people would try to trick you, rather than provide facts to the contrary of what they are arguing...
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 The fallback of a brainless Randriod- say it's all out of context. Those are all direct quotes. Provide evidence to counter or kindly shut the fuck up.
traffik0001 10 months ago
@traffik0001 I can tell by your vernacular that you are clearly intelligent and you don't NEED me to say this again. I will however reiterate my original point by saying, Watch the entire interview. At 2:20 there are two questions asked back to back from 2 different part of the interview... Watch "Ayn Rand Mike Wallace Interview 1959 part 1" to get the full scope and let Ayn Rand defend herself, since most of what this jackass Hatmann was asking was already answered in the Mike Wallace interview
seanone23 10 months ago
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@seanone23 Ah- so you're a sociopath just like Rand herself since anyone who has a shred of empathy will see how insane her beliefs are. Please kill yourself then. You are using up valuable oxygen for the rest of us.
traffik0001 10 months ago
@traffik0001 Way to dodge the point I made. You are a moron who has no understanding for what empathy is. You think forcing someone to be charitable to another is empathetic? It is theft, plain and simple. You are clearly too stupid to understand the principles of Rand's philosophy. You calling me a sociopath because I agree with Rand is no different than ignorant morons calling people racist for disagreeing with Obama... It is such a joke, and you need to open your eyes.
seanone23 10 months ago 2
@seanone23 You've made no point other that to show you are a sociopathic monster that the world would be better off without. Being called a moron by you is a compliment when you clearly would need miles to climb to be at the level of a moron yourself. Rand's philosophy is perfect for you, someone who can't think and doesn't question. You are a perfect Randriod. How does it feel to be such a idiot who fumes over the works of bad fiction writer?
traffik0001 9 months ago
@traffik0001 The point was that the clips Hartmann shows are edited together and the quotes taken out of context. I am a sociopath because I believe that people should be responsible for themselves instead of depending on handouts from everyone else? You clearly don't even understand the philosophies which you claim to hate... You are 180° out of cycle, meaning you are ass backwards. You think Rand's philosophies are for people who can't think? I say those like you, who hate them cannot think...
seanone23 9 months ago
@seanone23 Oh please, retard. You are a sociopath because you clearly lack empathy. The world will be better off without you in it. And why would one need to understand something that's against everything that's humane, just and plain and simply counter to intelligence (ie- objectivism)? Over and over you don't provide evidence and just spew stupidity.
Put it simply, if you had enough faith in you beliefs then why are you so PO'd, Randriod? Simple minds are so easy to get a rise out of.
traffik0002 9 months ago
Respond to this video...
BTW... way to take 2 weeks to respond loser. Was there a late welfare check for you temporarily shutting down your internet connection?
seanone23 9 months ago
Thom Hartmann is a left wing jackass...
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 "Left wing jackass" is brain dead idiot speak for "a person who speaks a truth that my small mind can't accept"
traffik0001 10 months ago
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seanone23 10 months ago
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@traffik0001 Oh really? your way of government regulation and "forced volunteerism" is bankrupting this country and destroying the society. Open your eyes, you are the one who is out of touch. If you understood what Ayn Rand was saying, you might agree... but you don't.
seanone23 10 months ago
Good for Ayn Rand. If this was a real country we would send all the Monkeys who eat bananas and smoke crack back to Africa.
galorize12rt 10 months ago
@galorize12rt Moron.
seanone23 10 months ago
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galorize12rt 10 months ago
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galorize12rt 10 months ago
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galorize12rt 10 months ago
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galorize12rt 10 months ago
Ayn Rand is now the idol for the Republican Sociopaths that are now trying to ruin this country. Rand was a Sociopath with deep seeded mental problems, and anyone thinking she is someone to follow and idolize will be in for a rude awakening.
Wolfenspitz 10 months ago
@Wolfenspitz Sadly, Paul Ryan is one of those who idolizes her and her philosophy is what guides him to cut Medicare and Medicaid to pay for cutting the taxes of millionaires and billionaires. What amazes me is how these people who claim to be Christians and go on and on about it, follow the ravings of a self proclaimed atheist. I have nothing against atheists, since I am one, but I find it kind of ironic that they are so self righteous about being Christians - yet their "god" is an atheist
mscoyote50 10 months ago
Ayn's a product of a totalitarian horrible period in human history; and her ideas are likewise reproductions of the context. In such periods, human growth is stifled and people are reduced to children by the oppressive patriarchy. Her philosophy is just a byproduct of her own infantile reduction, and nothing more. That a political party of infantile morons loves her work is unsurprising. PS.. my dog is smarter than that cow thom interviewed - are intelligent people that hard to find?
cheekieweekie 10 months ago
@cheekieweekie Nonsense. Ayn's work represents personal liberty and individual responsibility. It is the opposite of an oppressive dictatorship. It is total freedom. The Constitution was drafted to preserve the type of government Ayn Rand talks about. Too bad the Constitution has been trampled... The reason that girl was interviewed is because she is weak. If someone intelligent with any insight into Ayn Rand's work was being interviewed, they would've owned Thom Hartmann and he knows that.
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 I respect the romantic values of liberty and individual responsibility, and myself am a small "l" libertarian, in that i would never vote for a party that associates with republicans; so i am quite sympathetic to Ayn. I share Ayn's romantic angst, but the books are simplistic in their black and white characters. I love the individualism, john steward mill's liberty is a more considerate work in that regard. The post ww2 us superstate will collapse like the USSR its opposite.
cheekieweekie 10 months ago
@cheekieweekie Romantic values? These ideals are the cornerstone of a free society. Simplistic how? I am not sure what detail or "grey area" there should be when you speak of characters representing liberty and personal responsibility.
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 Even Ron Paul in the google interview explains the the pure libertarian dream is unrealistic, and that the subsidies that have created structural dependency cannot be simply abandoned... i understand the attraction of abstract idealism, but cummon, its not pragmatic, nor politically expedient, however much the tea party wishes to coopt it. IF ayn rand were living, those tea party wankers would eschew her for her real political views. Grey area is the world we live in.
cheekieweekie 10 months ago
@cheekieweekie What does any of what you just wrote have to do with anything we are talking about? What Ron Paul was saying is that we cannot abandon people who have grown to depend on subsidies without giving them a chance to support themselves over time... That is not to say that we cannot eventually live in a purely libertarian society. I am not talking about party affiliation, I am talking about individual liberty which is something all people should be able to embrace...
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 I hear ya, bro, but its not gonna happen in our lifetimes, or in the 7-8 billion peoples world going forward either. I give up whipping a dead horse. Ayn's ideals are heartfelt and *right* - no argument - just they're ideals, and we live in a real world. The 2 party corporate socialist system will NEVER let go of power - i'm out personally, screw em. Bless you and those who want real freedom - do it in your own life, this world is a lost cause.
cheekieweekie 10 months ago
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galorize12rt 10 months ago
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galorize12rt 10 months ago
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galorize12rt 10 months ago
Ayn Rand is a Jew. Capitalism is another guise for usury which was banned by Christianity. Labour precedes capital/wealth/money. If the "rich" quit, then the labourers would take their skills and labour and work for themselves. The capital the "rich" pay the labourers only has worth in so much as the poor are willing to work for it.
Look at animals, the successful species organize themselves into social order (i.e. humans). The ones that are selfish kill one another.
harveybirdmannequin 10 months ago
@harveybirdmannequin WHAT!?! Who cares if she is Jewish? Capitalism is the only legitimate form of trade. As soon as you regulate it, it is no longer fair trade. Not sure what you are talking about laborers?
Only animals with social order are successful? They ALL have some sort of social order and none kill one another as much as people do. WTF are you talking about? Please be at least semi-reasonable...
seanone23 10 months ago
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America DOES have a **REVENUE*** problem which SHOULD be a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY. Since Reagan, REPUBLICAN CLOWN GOD, the GOP AGENDA has been to REDUCE REVENUE in order to facilitate PRIVATIZATION or ELIMINATION of programs such as MEDICARE,SOCIAL SECURITY,UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS& others.PRIVATIZATION would be followed by an INCREASE in the costs of these services thus generating HUGE PROFITS at citizens' expense.INSTEAD of generating revenue REPUBLICAN$ want the NEEDIEST to do with LESS.
poindexterwitkowsky 10 months ago
Why do none of these Randian idiots realize that Labor creates wealth?
YankeePaladin 10 months ago
@YankeePaladin Labor wouldn't be necessary without creativity and innovation.
seanone23 10 months ago
Thom wants to know about an historical example where Ayn Rand's ideas worked. For a time, the American colonies and the early U.S. were a lot of like Galt's Gulch in relation to Europe. Millions of Europe's most productive people moved here and did better than they could have at home. For other examples, consider how Spain destroyed its economy by expelling Jews, and France damaged its economy by persecuting Huguenots. Some people are simply better at the tasks of living than others.
JulianConrad666 10 months ago
@JulianConrad666 Of course they did! If they needed land to do something they just stole it, land that was fertile and rich in natural resources. Europe was overcrowded and poor in natural resources. IMO that is at least a big a factor, probably much bigger.
mojosideburns 10 months ago
Thom Hartmann makes my skin crawl. He's picked an easy straw woman to beat up on (I mean Rand, not this vacuous chick); but Rand saw enough of the truth, unfortunately mixed up with some screwy notions, that conservatives feel she must have been on to something. Ironically there's an article in The Telegraph today about how China's new rich want to relocate to other countries because they're afraid that politics could turn against them and lead to confiscations. Chinese Atlases shrugging?
JulianConrad666 10 months ago
"Amanda Carey of Daily Caller and Thom debate the merits of the new movie Atlas Shrugged."
Thom doesn't debate anything, he's just spewing out his own leftist opinion, supported by analogies that make no sense.
EZippy 10 months ago
@EZippy "make no sense"- only to someone braind dead as yourself. Kindly provide a counter argument or shut the fuck up.
traffik0001 10 months ago
The fallacies of logic is rather thick here.
mustang607 10 months ago
Yeah, right! Some rich scumbag who only knows how to delegate his orders to people who "work under him" would know how better to survive than the people who actually engage in the day-to-day grunt work and have the practical skills and talents to actually survive. That's a laugh.
technatezin 10 months ago
very nice editing of the Rand video. good job of completely removing context.
ORGDNR 10 months ago
@ORGDNR "Out of context"- the fallback of the braindead Randroids. How is it that you can you speak with Ayn Rand's festering cock in your mouth 24/7?
traffik0001 10 months ago
very nice editing of the Rand video. good job of completely removing context
ORGDNR 10 months ago
"That's not what Ayn Rand was talking about!" Every time this chick opens her mouth, you find out she's an intellectual lightweight, who's left real history and real economics behind.
LongTomH 10 months ago 8
great video
wateryskipper 10 months ago
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wateryskipper 10 months ago
you have to question Ayn Rand's sanity.
wateryskipper 10 months ago
Notice how in this fictional reality you don't see evidence of what must be there for the tale to hold. As the CEOs are oblivious to all their employees who run their companies, mine their resources, produce their goods, Ayn Rand and today's libertarian/corporatist/Republicans are oblivious to the entire human and natural substrate that supports their world. It's not just sad, it's truly frightening to see this sociopathology spreading among the young and turning them into unreasoned robots.
mblockhart1 10 months ago 2
@mblockhart1 How can you lump Ayn Rand and Libertarians in with Republicans and Corporatists? By the way, there are plenty of Democrat Corporatists as well. If you understood Ayn Rand all, you would grasp that there could be no Corporatists in the Ayn Rand philosophy. Corporatists have emerged only since government intervention in and oversight of private markets and the introduction of corporate lobbyists. You are the one who sounds like an unreasoning robot. Try reading Ayn Rand as a start.
seanone23 10 months ago
When revolution comes America will have it's Bastille Day.
dragon8me2 10 months ago
Eat the rich!
dragon8me2 10 months ago 2
The selfish live afraid that there isn't enough to go around. Watching them scrabble for their cold comforts amuses me.
SLNoel 10 months ago
It was our ability to cooperate that enabled our species to rise to dominance. The human intellect is ultimately useless if we don't use it to coordinate actions beneficial to our clan, tribe, city, nation, world. Rand was a moron, I hope her death was painful.
mojosideburns 10 months ago
@mojosideburns Where in her philosophy do you find anything that even remotely hints that she doesn't believe in cooperation? She is EXPRESSLY stating that you should only do things that benefit the people that you know deserve it. Why should I be forced to support someone who may not deserve my support? Because someone like you says so? By the way, to wish ill will and pain on ANYONE, shows your true nature and that you wouldn't deserve support, which explains your disdain for her philosophy.
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 But she believed that the only people who deserve it are the people who don't care about others. She idealized a child-murdering kidnapper as her "superman"-how twisted is that? That is enough for me, I don't read her for the same reason I don't read Hitler, evil is evil. I have no fear of being contaminated by her bullshit, I just feel it would be a horrible waste of time.
mojosideburns 10 months ago
@mojosideburns That is NOT what she believed. She believed that she would decide who deserved her love, not the government through taxation. She did not idealize a child murderer, only his ability to separate his emotions from his calculations. The term superman just means that he was able to do something most could not... Are you really comparing Ayn Rand to Hitler? Wow, and to make these comparisons based on nothing... How can one critique something they haven't read?
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 Only a deranged and heartless person could see someone who could do something like that as validizing her philosophy. While it may not inherently force one to abandon the philosophy, it should at least cause them to search for a better example. And yes I am. Evil to the core, just more passive. True implementation of her philosophy would also result in incalculable suffering, just more drawn out. The dangers of overly centralized power apply to the financial sector also.
mojosideburns 10 months ago
@mojosideburns
You clearly do not understand the philosophies of Ayn Rand, and I cannot expect you to since you haven't read anything she has written. You are an ignorant person. Only an ignorant person would make statements on something that they clearly do not understand. How can you presume to understand the outcomes of implementing her philosophies when you don't even understand her philosophies? Overly centralized power? Do you understand what individual liberty is? Go be a troll elsewhere
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 Far from ignorant. Too much money in too few hands=en economic dictatorship. You're probably some rich suburban douchebag, well I live in a neighborhood you'd probably be scared to drive through much less stagger home at 1 or 2 in the morning after putting in 9 or 10 hours in a factory. I don't want your help, but I know people who absolutely need OUR help and you give it or you will have a revolution, no people will stand idly by while their children starve.
mojosideburns 10 months ago
@mojosideburns Government intervention is what created this climate. Exactly contrary to what Ayn Rand's philosophies state. The people you speak of NEED our help because the government we currently have in place, has made it VERY expensive for production to take place here in the US. I am not going to get into it, I am not here to educate ignorant people. And YES, you are ignorant. How do you talk badly about something you don't understand and then claim not to be ignorant? Explain that please.
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 I disagree. It is their greed that has. They are making record profitsand enjoying comparatively (both historically and internationally) low income tax rates, and while corprate tax rates are admittedly high most of the biggest corp.'s pay little or no taxes, but they are still outsourcing jobs. The problem is they have bought our govt. The solution is not to eliminate govt, not yet anyways. Let both act as a counterbalance to each other, until they wither away.
mojosideburns 10 months ago
@mojosideburns Like I said, I am not going to try to explain everything to someone who hasn't ever read Ayn Rand.
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 Why would you ask for an explanation from anyone when you have already determined that you are the one who knows it all and the rest are ignorant?
wjksea 10 months ago
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@wjksea Do you see any explanation in any of those responses? This person admitted they have never read Ayn Rand, therefore how could he/she form an opinion on Rand's philosophies. I don't claim to know it all, nor did I claim anyone other than the person I was talking to was ignorant. Please quote where I even alluded that I am "the one who knows it all and the rest are ignorant." Do not try to paint a false picture of my intent. Thanks.
seanone23 10 months ago
@wjksea BTW... Go troll somewhere else.
seanone23 10 months ago
@mojosideburns The Rander's like to pretend that their philosophy is about freedom and liberty - and maybe some of them do truly believe in those concepts. But the true result of their philosophy is totalitarianism of the worst kind. The dictatorship of the rich is their goal and we're seeing them try to implement it right now in the form of the selfish Ryan budget, which takes money from needed social programs to give tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires. Good on Thom for exposing them.
mscoyote50 10 months ago
@mscoyote50 Thank you. Laissez-faire economics can cause nothing but suffering. They complain about gov't coercion through taxes; let taxes and social programs go away and they'll miss the good old days of paying taxes.
mojosideburns 10 months ago
The 'good old days' of relatively freer markets is the reason why your grandparents were more virtuous and civilized than you ever will be.
truevoice08 10 months ago
@truevoice08 LOL. An objectivist trying to call someone unvirtuous and uncivilized. My Grandfather was the most brilliant and viruous person I've ever known, though we disagreed on much. But he despised Rand more than he hated Marx, he said Marx would be good if it could work.
mojosideburns 10 months ago
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas,alien philosophies,and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people/Liberty without Learning is always in peril and Learning without Liberty is always in vain."-JFK Google your rep,w/1of these words:Constitutional Government-Sound Money-Noninterventionist Foreign Policy-Individual Liberty-Free Markets
rrrjr60 10 months ago 2
Actually we have a disease which afflicts millions of people where they are unable to form empath connection with others nor can consider other people motives or emotions.. It's called Autism, is that the Rand superman? Hmm seems kinda fragile, in a world of normals this superman wouldn't do very well trying to kill/step on others all their lives..They would be ostracized and stoned before they achieve this mythical uber status Rand talks about..
ddnguyen278 10 months ago
@ddnguyen278
they already have developed a mathmatical system that promotes Psycopaths as normal, Game theory- John Nash and he got a nobel prize for it, This kind of thinking has been increasing and increasing, It's Nietzschism the superman, Fascism, law of the jungle and lots of other sick little lies certain people want to tell themselves to justify themselves as an elite running everything and treating everyone underneath as they want to. There are all criminals anyway- Cleptocracy.
099749 10 months ago
@099749 cont...
Isnt it Pig! Dont worry you and you sick little piggie friends will be in prison one day, just have to get society of people that are not criminal first, right, dread it dont you! Coward!
099749 10 months ago
@099749 You have explained the Rand philosophy perfectly. Thank you. It's total elitism masquerading as freedom and liberty for the individual. What saddens me is that there are so many impressionable young people out there who are caught up in this thinking without realizing that it leads only to fascism and oppression - the rich get richer while the poor become destitute. I guess they see themselves as part of that elite. That's scary. Why would anyone celebrate selfishness?
mscoyote50 10 months ago
@mscoyote50
I think you'll see esp with men, that they see it as being a "man"- tough or strong. They see being a man as little more than being a thug, if that is a man then the 8 year old bully in the play ground is a man, it's actually quiet cowardly as it's fear driven- just as the 8 year old bully is really a scared little boy.
Far more to being a man then simply being strong and tough. But that notion of strenght attracts, as a form of self impowerment for the young I think.
099749 10 months ago
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099749 10 months ago
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099749 10 months ago
Super pig, super pig
Really doesnt give a fig spins his web makes up lies wears a suit as a disguise
Oh look oh look it's super pig!
SUPER PIG!
099749 10 months ago
9.43- "Americans meet your new rulers" there a bunch of animals that think you're good to be treated like shit and steped on! They rule- they are: THE ELITE SUPER PIGS!
099749 10 months ago
@23ord
How do you work that out? Ayn Rand is hardly a religious spokes person?
099749 10 months ago
8.24- just the sort of thing a commie would say "they have never been implimentent" So they could work.
Ayn Rand is a fascist, an elitist, an extremist and her ideas are sad and sick really, a society of the jungle were only the elites that have jungle protection have an form of defence.
099749 10 months ago
zionist jew shills pimping zionist jew trash.
23ord 10 months ago
I'm just curious... is the taking resources and freedoms from people and replacing them with your version of equality and justice unselfish?
mmalody 10 months ago
1.21 that's Nietzsche's idea hardly hers, she has just made it about money also. The superman
099749 10 months ago
"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility."
Theodore Roosevelt 1903
rrrjr60 10 months ago
Boy what a formidable debate partner he picked out. I'm seeing the epitome of a man who fights girls--and can barely hold his own then.
OhNoyate 10 months ago
Thom Hartmann is bang on here. The rich here do nothing. If they all disappeared, someone would step in to do their work.
jimmycrackedcorn226 10 months ago
@jimmycrackedcorn226 "to do their work" meaning -> pressing buttons and giving ambiguous instructions to already existing managerial structures. Its new wannabe aristocracy, plain and simple.
MarkoKraguljac 10 months ago
@MarkoKraguljac Yes. Exactly. Hahaha. CEOs and the super rich do fuck all. The only reason they're there is because of their past generations' money, or pure dumb luck. The people at the bottom do all the work.
jimmycrackedcorn226 10 months ago
@jimmycrackedcorn226 Thom Hartmann is comparing a situation (America now) that would not exist in Ayn Rand's philosophy. CEO's would not make billions and just anyone couldn't be a CEO because there would be no market manipulation by corrupt paid off government officials. Ayn Rand predicted the eventual economic collapse of America in that interview with Mike Wallace that Hartmann is quoting from. And guess what... It's happening right now!
seanone23 10 months ago
OK I get it. Hartman is the new Olberman.
OhNoyate 10 months ago
Well, Ayn Rand certainly did create a seductive theoretical framework. But as the saying goes, the road to hell is pawed with good intentions..
Despite her advanced theories, she probably did suffer from brain abnormalities that made her incapable of empathy. And if the PCL-R test for psychopathy (or MRI scans) had been available in the 50's, she may well have been identified as a sociopath.
schatz87 10 months ago
@schatz87 Incapable of empathy? Because she thinks people should earn love? Because she believes some people are unworthy of HER love? How is she a sociopath for believing in Individual Liberty and Free Markets? Is she a sociopath because she wants the option to choose whether to be charitable and who to be charitable to? I question your own intentions when questioning these ideals... "Forced Charity" is non existant. It is an oxymoron.
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 Nice try. Ayn wasn't saying unworthy of HER love. You added the word "her" to make it more palatable. She was saying unworthy of love. She also based her heroes on a psychopath who dismembered a child because she admired his brutality. And no one uses the term "forced charity" but people like you. The rest of us call it "being a part of society". The same ideas that make a bigger man punching you to death rend Ayn Rand moot.
JaySBeeable 10 months ago
@JaySBeeable No, I didn't add anything. How could you believe someone who promotes personal liberty and accountability would presume to tell another who they should love. She is saying that we as individuals should be deciding who we support and therefore love. She didn't base her heroes on a psychopath, just on his ability to separate emotions. Being part of society? Does that include making no contribution, but taking limitlessly? Have you ever read any of Ayn Rand's work? Clearly not.
seanone23 10 months ago
Social Darwinism...The slim percent of a percent of the very very richest say to everyone else in our society...."If you can't make it in this game (and I've rigged it by the way) it is simply the order of things that YOU PERISH. I have no obligation to you." Disgusting to the core! The total opposite of human civilization! Really, an evil fantasy of unlimited power and greed.
DonSSanders 10 months ago 5
@DonSSanders
In Ayn Rand's philosophy it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to "rig the game." If government and economics remained mutually exclusive, there would be no monopolies or "rigged games." There couldn't be. The point is to look out for yourself first and THEN help people VOLUNTARILY who you know deserve the help. You tell me even one service, other than National Defense, that can be better provided by government than UNREGULATED private industry.
seanone23 10 months ago
@seanone23 Silly braindead Randriod, I hope you love living in a world of unregulated food, water, medications, and never forget that your Randroid utopia wouldn't allow you to use that computer that you used to type that message - a computer that had minimum safety government regulations on it to make sure that you don't get electrocuted each time you turn it on or type a single keystroke.
traffik0001 10 months ago
@traffik0001 Unregulated food, water, and medicine? You mean like EVERYWHERE in the entire world did prior to the inception of the FDA? You moron. If computers electrocuted people, the company that made them would go out of business. Why? Because people wouldn't a buy a product that killed them. It is in that companies' best interest to make a computer that doesn't electrocute people. In our current system, if the company was going out of business, the gov't would bail them out with our money.
seanone23 10 months ago
@traffik0001 BTW... since you injected yourself into a conversation that didn't include you, why dont you answer my challenge? YOU tell me even one service, other than National Defense, that can be better provided by government than UNREGULATED private industry.
seanone23 10 months ago
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