Xian Caller: Creating the Legend of Jesus - A.E. #585

[ChipArgyle]

There's a religious legend developing in New York City right now in the Jewish community. When you see things like this happening in modern times, including the rise of something as utterly ridiculous as Scientology, it's no wonder that religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were able to take root in the Bronze Age.

[EdgePitSwing]

Caller: "Jolly good sir, I have been bested. YET! On morrow's eve, I shall return to gift thou an intellectual mind cannon, with retribution as ammunition! AVAST!"

[greyeyed123]

Modern myths: Saddam Hussein attacked us on 9/11. They repeated this lie enough, people today STILL believe it...and yet they celebrate the death of bin Laden for some reason. I really expected some people to ask themselves...why do we care if bin Laden is killed if Saddam attacked us and is already dead? Further mythmaking: they must have worked together! Also, where is Obama's SuperLongForm birth certificate? Where is Osama's LongForm death certificate?

[00D00]

@greyeyed123 uhhhh…that's not even close…

[greyeyed123]

@00D00 Not even close to what?

[greyeyed123]

@00D00 You must have been living under a rock during this period of American history, which is odd since it was only 10 years ago. Many polls still show that most people TODAY believe that Sadam was behind the attacks. Why? Because that was the reason we were given (by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, and Rice) for going to war with Iraq! There are dozens of pieces of evidence available if you were too young to follow the news back then. I can link you to them if you don't know how to google.

[00D00]

@greyeyed123 Why? Because they're idiots. We went to war in Iraq because they 'believed' he had WMD's, look it up. There is nothing that says Saddam was behind the attacks.

Lets just say for the sake of argument that I'm an idiot, have no idea how to use google, show them to me. Show me one piece of evidence that says that that was the reason.

[greyeyed123]

@00D00 One, I don't need to look things up because I wasn't 12 at the time. Two, what does it matter to us if Iraq has WMDs unless they are connected to al Qaeda and might give them WMDs, as the myth was retold dozens of times with no evidence whatsoever (and tons of evidence to the contrary)? Even by 2007, 6 years after the attacks, 41% of Americans STILL BELIEVED Sadam was directly involved in 9/11. Why? Because that was the story. I'll send you links.

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 It's not Donald Rumsfeld's fault that people wanted to connect Saddam to 9/11 despite him telling them that he wasn't. Also, bringing Al Qaeda into this is just wrong. Iraq was defying UN resolutions for 12 years. If you want to make up your own fictitious reasons for the war in Iraq, like 9/11 and Al Qaeda, thats fine, but that does not negate the real reasons as expressed by the White House.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix Are you suggesting it was only a coincidence that we went to war with Iraq right after 9/11? Are you suggesting Bush, Condi, Rumsfeld, and Cheney didn't connect Iraq with 9/11 ad absurdum?

Iraq defied UN resolutions. So?  There were no WMDs, despite the many, many lies coming out of the White House based on nothing but wishful thinking.

Your efforts at historical revisionism have failed. This is the information age. We have audio and video. It doesn't lie.

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 UN security council resolution 1441, now shut the fuck up. Revisionist history? You mean what you try to do? you fucking hypocrite...SHUT THE FUCK UP! Use a search engine for once, and then you can talk...until then, SHUT THE FUCK UP. Why, because you are not worthy you fucking fuck.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix You sound unstable. No, the revisionist history I am referring to is yours. I sent you a link of the dozens and dozens of times Bush claimed Iraq and Al Qaeda were connected. I can send you more links of when Condi, Cheney, and Rumsfeld made the same claims. If you think you get to change history to suggest we went to war with Iraq because of the UN, you're off your rocker. (If the violation was against the UN, why were the nonUS forces so miniscule?) Doofus.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix It's really weird that Bush decided to say this to the UN on September 12, 2002. Why did he randomly pick that date, I wonder? "In violation of Security Council Resolution 1373, Iraq supports terrorist organizations that direct violence against Iran, Israel, and Western governments....And al-Qaida terrorists escaped from Afghanistan are known to be in Iraq."

"Are known to be". Who was it doing the knowing, and how were they doing it? The FBI and CIA didn't agree.

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 I don't see why it's weird or what's significant about the date, and do you really think Iraq was the only country in the Middle East that didn't have Al Qaeda in it? Thanks for providing yet another resolution that Saddam was in violation of. I think it's sad that you make the leap from saying that Saddam has connections to Al Qaeda to that Saddam was behind 9/11. You even acknowledged that 15 of 18 of them were Saudis in your rambling personal message.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix You don't know what's weird or significant about suggesting Al Qaeda was in Iraq on September 12, 2002? Also, Al Qaeda was NOT in Iraq! We have people who worked on that for years called the FBI and CIA. They told Bush Al Qaeda was not there. Saddam HATED Bin Laden, and Al Qaeda.

Also, there were 20 hijackers on 9/11. Only 19 made it on the planes. And 15 were Saudis.

If you don't know these basic facts, why are you arguing with me? Do research first.

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 I know that you think that it's significant because it is one day after a one year anniversary. Regardless, i still do not know what is actually significant about the date. 18 was a typio for 19, and the 20th could be included if you want. focusing on minutia like this shows your desperation. Telling me to do research in that dismissive manner is also a sign of desperation. Of course Saddam hated Bin Laden, or should i say HATED?

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix "Of course Saddam hated Bin Laden, or should i say HATED?"

You did say hated.

It is not minutiae, as we are discussing the actually REASONS we went to war with another country,and you can't even get the most basic facts surrounding the events that led up to that war correct.You seem perfectly fine making things up in your own head and running with it.

Did you notice that YOU are linking Iraq and Al Qaeda now, a day after you said THAT WASN'T THE REASON WE WENT TO WAR?

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 realy a typo of 18 for 19, and then you mentioning the 20th that wasn't on the plane is not minutia? Come on! A link between Iraq and Al Qaeda is not the reason we went to war. Stop saying that. The rest of your comment is psychological transference. I lived through those days. I have read the articles. I watched the press conferences. Yes, I said hated. I said it twice. Once the right way, and once in all caps to show what a jerk you are.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix "I lived through those days. I have read the articles."

Are you sure you didn't just watch Fox News? I lived through those days as well, and apparently are far more literate than you are.

If the so-called link between Al Qaeda and Iraq is NOT why we went to war, why was it repeated over and over again by the president, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice? Why did they put Powell in front of the UN with faulty intel? Because they knew people would believe him. He was tricked.

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 Let's not even get started about you saying randomly that Al Qaeda is not an ethnicity or whatever you said. Let me try that on you. Clam Chowder is a soup. How could you not know that clam chowder is a soup. Do your research. Seriously, you're such a dick. Go away.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix Al Qaeda is not a NATIONALITY, doofus. If it were, we would have went to war with "Al Qaedia," lol. Al Qaeda's base of operations, however, was in Afghanistan. Al Qaeda was not in Iraq, as Sadam hated Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, and Sadam was a dictator in charge. The FBI and CIA knew this, and informed the administration on numerous occasions. That wasn't the answer they wanted, so they outed Valerie Plame as retaliation and went to war anyway. You go away! lol

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 I can't believe you stated all of these simple facts that i have shown you that i already know! Repeating thi even: "Al Qaeda is not a NATIONALITY, doofus." You are once agin trying to imply that I think that Al Qaeda is a nationality. This is so wrong and dishonest. Let me give you an example: 2+2 EQUALS FOUR, doofus. Just an example of what you do. I would never do that. Shame on you. Now go away...really.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix No, shame on YOU. How do you explain Scott McClellan?

We spend billions on this war, made oil companies richer, and left the country in exactly the same place it was before. I'm sure you are aware of Nouri al-Maliki's present problems with Vice-President Tarik al-Hashemi. You are aware that we've barely left and they are going right back to the same tribal problems they had before!

Should we go back and stay they forever?

Now YOU go away, because the truth will not.

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 You never apologized for your previous crap. You never acknowledged trying to act like you were informing me of basic facts that I already know. Seriously, you typed twice to me that Al Qaeda is not a nationality. Now you are changing the subject to Iraq's current government, International business, and Scott McClellan? I get it. You change the subject when called out. Don't ever use the word truth again. You are not worthy.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix You claimed Rumsfeld never connected Iraq and 9/11. You claimed no one in the administration connected the two. I sent you dozens of quotes disconfirming your claim, and you ignored it. You continued to claim Al Qaeda was in Iraq, when the FBI and CIA said they were not. You claimed the reason for the Iraq War was a UN violation, but somehow the US did all the fighting (and despite the fact that Saddam violated UN resolutions all the time). Try to tell the truth.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix I will also note that you don't seem to know anything about the political situation in Iraq right now. Typical. You make grand claims about the reasons for huge political decisions, and yet don't know anything about the politics involved or the results of those decisions.

Quit watching Fox News and read once in a while. Iraq has gone right back to the same problems it had before we attacked them. I suppose you think that is "win" for us?

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 Wow, just read all of this that you wrote, not just this comment, but the others too. My god! The quotes that I supposedly ignored. I did not ignore them. I just wondered why you used them seeing that they hurt your own case. Then trying to inform me where I get my information from!?!?!? That's sad, seeing that I acctually do know where you get the misinformation that you are parroting. Sad. NO MORE RESPONSES WILL BE FORTHCOMING.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix "I just wondered why you used them seeing that they hurt your own case. "

Yeah, you keep saying that, but notice how you never explain yourself? It's because you CAN'T.

I again implore you to explain how we "won" in Iraq if the Iraqis are going back to exactly the same problems they had before! If UN violations was the problem, we created a bigger problem. If creating a democracy was the goal, that goal is already failing. Any other suggestions? WHY DID WE GO THERE?

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix

watch?v=OgfzqulvhlQ

Try to deny this. I dare you.

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 Really, you need to just stop. This video was mostly about weapons of mass destruction, and yellow cake, and such. So, once again you change the subject. So, after showing me these clips that I have already seen, your next move is to tell me again how id need to do research, and i don't know what's going on. Oh yeah, "inform" me that Al Qaeda is not a nationality again. Make sure to annoyingly capitalize a lot of words again too. Bark up another tree.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix You must have missed the parts where 9/11 was connected to Iraq? Where Bush said Saddam sponsored terrorists and was attempting to make nuclear bombs? Did you really miss that part?

Again, what was the point of the war? Al Qaeda wasn't there, so that's not it. The FBI and CIA made it clear that there were no WMDs, so that's not it. Democracy is falling apart already, so that's not it. The oil money... wait a second. What happened to the oil money?

[greyeyed123]

BUSH: One of the major theaters against al Qaeda turns out to have been Iraq. This is where al Qaeda said they were going to take their stand. This is where al Qaeda was hoping to take–

RADDATZ: But not until after the U.S. invaded.

BUSH: Yeah, that’s right. So what?

So what? THEY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE IF WE HADN'T ATTACKED IRAQ! They were centered in AFGHANISTAN! We were already IN Afghanistan. Thank goodness an effective president figured that out and killed Bin Laden.

[greyeyed123]

@trueleroix "You even acknowledged that 15 of 18 of them were Saudis in your rambling personal message."

Also, you are aware that Al Qaeda is not a nationality, right? The hijackers were Al Qaeda. The fact that 15 of them were Saudis isn't relevant to the fact that Al Qaeda was NOT IN IRAQ. There was no connection. Saddam hated Bin Laden, and Al Qaeda.

Google "Saddam and Al Qaeda" and click on the first link. Wikipedia has an EXHAUSTIVE article with MULTIPLE links of support.

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 "Also, you are aware that Al Qaeda is not a nationality, right?" WTF? Why would you write that?

"Al Qaeda was NOT IN IRAQ." Really, do you have any idea how international borders work in that region? I ask you once again how could it be that Iraq was the only country of the Middle East with no Al Qaeda in it? You do understand what countries border Iraq, right?

I read that whole article. It does nothing but hurt your case.

The way you capitalize words is annoying.

[trueleroix]

@greyeyed123 "Also, you are aware that Al Qaeda is not a nationality, right?" WTF? Why would you write that?

"Al Qaeda was NOT IN IRAQ." Really, do you have any idea how international borders work in that region? I ask you once again how could it be that Iraq was the only country of the Middle East with no Al Qaeda in it? You do understand what countries border Iraq, right?

I read that whole article. It does nothing but hurt your case.

The way you capitalize words is annoying.

[greyeyed123]

"I ask you once again how could it be that Iraq was the only country of the Middle East with no Al Qaeda in it?"

If all the countries in that region have Al Qaeda in them, why don't we attack all those countries? Why didn't we attack Saudi Arabia? At least 15 of the hijackers were Saudis, while NONE OF THEM WERE IRAQIS.

Saddam was not working with Al Qaeda, Saddam did not attack us on 9/11.

And you didn't have TIME to read the article, doofus. Don't lie about reading.

[thelordmemnoch]

That caller wasn't a theist, ha ha. He was on the fence and open to intelligent dialogue. I mean, he actually listened, thought about it and evaluated what he originally thought, then came up to the conclusion that he couldn't defend his position. That is shocking. Virtually every theist, who's argument was deflated, instead of admitting they don't have an answer, will just ignore the point and say, "Ok, ok, ok what about this...?" It drives me up the wall. Props to the caller.

[steve4ha]

Haha, that dude went out with class!

[LouisPlume]

Jesus probably didnt exist.

[34jake34]

Wow I'm impressed with the caller.

[CallumJStewart]

Owned.

[BlueWaveOfLight]

He actually admitted it! lol. Atheism FTW

[Anon11674]

Wow. It's hard to believe the caller actually admitted defeat. It's not the first time I've seen this from a religious person, but it's very close.

Most feel the need to be absolutely right, something about uncertainty threatening their worldview, and end up making utter fools of themselves. (While thinking they've won, in the end)

I commend this individual, for having the intelligence and honesty to know when they're beat, and to admit it. And gracefully, too!

[NovaHorizon]

@Anon11674 agreed. First time I've had the chance to hear it, and it gave me some respect for the caller to end the call gracefully.

[Phastolph]

"I believe you have just defeated me"???

I can't believe she admitted she had no arguments left!!!!!!!!! I feel like kissing that woman! If more believers were mature and honest enough to admit it when when they're defeated in discussion instead of switching from their (so-called) "logical arguments" to desperate preaching and threats of punishment and suffering in hell, I would sure respect them for that!

[y0nd3r]

'well...I believe you have just defeated me...but I'll be back.' I'm still laughing!!

[andmarikis]

Way to have the cahones to admit defeat! Score one for civil discourse!!

[TheJesusSucks]

Haha, the caller openly admits to getting pwned.

[kingdomcome316]

nothing creates nothing that sounds like myth or a big bang created from nothing come on something created us you dont have to be an idiot to figure how complicated how the human body is that it was created from evolution of nothingness their has to be something?

[TheJesusSucks]

so then what created God?

[CheesesPeaks2U]

kingdomcome316

Once you accept that energy exists in infinity and that this energy is not 'nothing' but then energy is converted into matter .... does it all begin to make sense now?

It's not difficult ...

[Acrimonator]

The idiot is the one repeating ad nauseam that the big bang started from nothing... This has been adressed thousand times...

BTW, your phrasing is horrible and makes almost no sense at all, as language gives structure to thoughts, i can understand how lost you are...

[holdenbane]

@kingdomcome316 so not only does your god not need a creator, but he can also created us from nothing? wow, sound logic.

[Atheist603]

@holdenbane yeah he created matter using magic lol haha what a foolish thinking lol

[connorkimbro]

"Well.... I believe you have just defeated me."

hahaha.... best quote ever.

[kingdomcome316]

If God dont exist how where we created from nothing that is very logical isnt it how about the the Earth the distance from the sun if it was any closer we would all fire. What freedom is their in believeing in nothing that my friend sounds more myth than the Jesus story God has set eternity in our hearts

[holydemon956]

there are an unimaginable amounts of planets in the universe, if this planet cant have life on it then we was just be on another and who said this universe had a beginning why cant it have just always existed like your god is meant to have

[lipoicacid]

There is no ''nothing'' in physics.

[adolthitler]

If the universe did not always exist and was created by god, where did god come from? NOTHING!

So if the universe can't just come from nothing why can god? Oh but he is god, he can do anything.....

Well the universe is here, where is god?

[tyrone9009]

First of all learn some grammar. Your sentences are very difficult to read. Second, no one said we came from nothing. That just shows how much you don't know about science. Read a science book before you argue against it.

[TheJesusSucks]

Hmm, putting together a coherent sentence is not among your strengths I see. Anyway, many of your questions can be answered by watching other Atheist Experience episodes.

[alastair78]

LOL! Defeated

[wehavebiscuits]

An honest caller! A good example for christians!

Do not feel ashamed, Harley, be proud of your honesty!

[MatthiasFarland]

This guy is their most honest caller ever! My new favourite caller.

[RichoRosai]

How was he defeated? He didn't even make a point or argument. They just clarified something they had said previously.

[ChainX]

Eh? Did that caller actually admit defeat? Wow, that's a first in my experience.

[stojadinovicp]

@ChainX: Yep! And I think it is MOST IMPORTANT to tell that caller that he did a GOOD thing and make him realize there is nothing to be ashamed for! We need to show such rare people that admitting to be wrong is POSITIVE. Most people dig themselves deeper and deeper simply because they are incapable of admitting they were wrong... It's quite a problem and it needs to be addressed...

[Pelonetillo]

he didnt exist. you might as well say god may exist, but theres no evidence. dont buy into it. he didnt!

[aleceth]

I'd say yes, if the person(s) we base our story of jesus on was/were alive today, we would think they were lunatics. But if you took anyone from that point of history, by today's standard they would be a lunatic because they were so superstitious. For his day, he might have been a pretty normal guy. But if you want to see how much a person's character can be built up just over a century or so look up the American Tall Tales; those characters are pretty much assumed to be based on actual events.

[Nilopollis]

nevermind that, just grab someone from a lost tribe somewhere and they will seem pretty illogical in technological society. without science we only have our imaginations to limit our explanations.

[igottaexplain]

yeah, i'd say jesus was a lunatic

[stumper001]

igottaexplain, Worse than that he played people for fools. Free food and lodgings for spinning tales on the gullible and you know it still happens today.

[heyriggs84]

that is a very interesting take on it, jesus the con man!

[Sheogorath13]

lol. I heard an AIM door close sound right after he said lunatic. Funniest coincidence this week!

[AleximusMaximus]

"Well.. I believe you have just defeated me"

Most unexpected comment... ever? Props to that caller.

[kyokumajr]

Yeah it's very rare that the opposition* actually acknowledges a point made; give you hope for the future :)

[LotusGreenX]

He sounded like an honest caller. It's hard to honestly say you believe noah's ark was totally a true story unless you are delusional.

[beriukay]

That was a cool ending. Not funny like the "punch you in the face for Jesus," but definitely up there in unexpectedness.

I enjoyed their addition to the trilemma. You have a trilemma, CS?  Well we've got a quadralemma, how do you like that?

[Hopeful71]

Ditto.

"Well.. I believe you have just defeated me"

Seriously, how many times in the history of man has this phrase been uttered non-sarcastically?

Props to anyone, theist or atheist, who can concede a point like that. Even the most rationally intelligent amoung us has a hard time doing this.

[spl0uf]

amen to that