Unsound Audio: What's Wrong with the Sony HVR-V1U?

[C20rules]

Bad reproduction of low frequencies is a problem in general - even movies and TV-productions in general have "bass roll off" below 150-300 Hz on recorded sounds

(digitally created music or sound effects is another thing), but this one has to be outrangeosly awful if it's such bad compared to others.

A big problem is the wide spread use of directional microphones - they don't pick up bass wery well other than on an open space, close to the sound source.

[C20rules]

Btw - my advise to those who want good sound - buy a digital sound recorder. Built in sound IS always crap - more or less.

A good recorder that records uncompressed 24 bit 96 kHz wave sound doesn't cost more than the cheapest consumer cameras.

I use the M-Audio Microtrack II - but there are many models out there

A little more work to put the soundtrack in sync with the picture - but well worth it.

[basspig]

You're looking at this from inside the old paradigm of 1-7/8IPS tape with linear track audio. Forget that model. This is DIGITAL audio. There is NO reason the low frequency response can't be flat to DC--it's just a bitstream!

As for the movies, dialog audio has to be the worst--it sounds like it was recorded through a toilet paper roll core.

As for camera audio, I'm pleased to report our new EX1s are DAT-quality and every bit as clean as the best portable digital recorders.

[C20rules]

Of course digital audio has no limits at low frequencies - but the preamp circuit that handles the signal from the microphone has. Even if it gets digital - you still have to handle the analog signal before it passes on to the ADC - and it's that part the manufacturers doesn't care very much about

LOL - I agree fully about the dialog sound, it's just awful. But even recorded sound effects, like vehicles, ambient sounds and some explosion sounds etc. is really bad

[PARRAVISION]

I agree! there's a problem! I called sony and they said there is a roll off point, this is what the tech said, so I want to start a class action law suit, email me through youtube, as soon as I get 20 or sony owners of the v1u im calling an attorney

[basspig]

I am no longer an owner of the V1U--I sold both of them and am now using Sony's PMW-EX1, which is fabulous on all fronts.

But those who DO have the V1U I think are entitled to some redress from Sony for calling it "20-20KHz" in the original specs, which they later changed to "not specified" for a reason..

[basspig]

As with any piece of equipment, your decision to buy or not depends on suitability to task. If you're doing events like concerts, the audio will be a problem. If you are documenting parachute jumps, audio is a non-issue.

It appears that this characteristic is by design, as it has been reported across a sampling of V1U cameras.

[PARRAVISION]

there's a problem with the audio

I have this camera and Sony admitted there's a roll off to me today

[ErmesReturn]

also, does this problem happen to every single HVR-V1U & HVR-V1E??

[ErmesReturn]

so should i not buy this?!

[infraredtechnician]

im glad to see im not the only one to come to this conclusion,I got rid of the Sony in favor of the Canon,sorry Sony but i use my cameras in the dark and record audio to the audio track,as an old tutor of mine said many years ago "Could do better".

[fourthwall1]

I sold mine because the audio would not match the picture.

[PARRAVISION]

thats odd? you dident sync using time code or slate.

[pennyshill]

I'm still not convinced of this problem. The Audio on my V1P is fine ( it may only be a V1U problem ). I have used an HV20 before and the sound quality was not as good as my V1P.. I've recorded everything from live music to Interviews, birds singing outside and it works fine. I'm not an expert at sound though. I will test the V1P camera when i get a chance.

[basspig]

The on-board mics in the HV20 are terrible. But the audio front end on the HV20 is not bad when you use a quality external condenser mic.

I ran a test of three recorders, at a wedding last summer, with the same mics feeding three different recorders for redundancy. The Zoom H4 was the best, the HV20 almost as good, and the V1U far behind, with no bass at all.

Testing with the on-camera mics tells you how the mics sound--there's no way to separate the caemra from the mic quality in that case.

[pennyshill]

i have a Sony HVR - V1p ... is it likely my camera has this same issue? i have been using it for about 4 months and I am pretty happy with the audio quality.. is there any way to test this problem? thanks

[basspig]

It's only a hunch, but I would not expect the PAL version to be any different on the audio.

A casual test: plug in a good pair of studio condenser mics and make a recording of traffic or other sounds with low frequency content. Then plug the mics into a portable digital recorder like the Zoom H4 and repeat the process. Listen to both recordings and hear the difference.

A more scientific method is to download RightMark audio analyzer and test it that way.

[ronzilla3000]

im glad to have this info as I am planning to purchase an hd video camera this week. but I cant quite afford the next best sony the z7u.the z1u is an older model but i dont know mucha about.what can you reccommend inthe 3500-4000 range. also what do you think about inport versions that are sold for almost half the us made versions?

[KIN0PRAVDA]

Thanks so much for the warning on the v1u! I'll be shooting a doc this summer on a touring bluegrass band, and high quality audio is a must. Any word yet on the Sony HVR-V7U? I'm very close to picking one up, but if the audio is faulty it's a no go. Thanks!

[basspig]

No word on any replacements in the HDV lineup.

I have my new PMW-EX1 and with an external Rode NT4 X-Y stereo mic, it captures 'studio-quality' sound. I did some run & gun stuff that was spectacular. I covered a choir concert recently with just the Rode feeding the EX1. I could hardly want better audio than I captured with the EX1. It was good enough to make a commercial recording from.

[KIN0PRAVDA]

Thanks so much for the warning on the v1u! I'll be shooting a doc this summer on a touring bluegrass band, and high quality audio is a must. Any word yet on the Sony HVR-V7U? I'm very close to picking one up, but if the audio is faulty it's a no go. Thanks!

[landrover1515]

Disclaimer: I am no audio engineer. Therefore I am also no audio snob. I was on the verge of buying the v1u then I saw this video by basspig. I did a google search for contrasting opinions on this subject. There is commentary on the web downplaying the claims of this "unsound documentary." Apparently, Sony isn't addressing the problem because the problem is a non-issue. I'll post again with the qualified responses to this "beef." Nothing against pigs (or basspigs for that matter.)

[landrover1515]

By the way, I did end up buying the v1u for my short films (albeit not music oriented) and have been estatic with the quality of footage and the sound. Really.

[basspig]

It all depends on your expectations. If you are thinking in the realm of linear U-matic tape, the of course the sound is just as good. However, if you realize that this is really a digital recorder, and as such, it should perform like one, then you can see where it's deficient.

BTW, for really good audio, try the new Sony PMW-EX1. I now own one and I record musical events with it, with results that rival the best I get out of my Zoom H4.

[WaveTrainProductions]

yea i also was thinking about buying this camera but i also wanted the canon xh a1. does it have any audio problems? If not i'll prob get it instead, it costs about the same. sexydan guy needs to just do his research.

[basspig]

If my Canon HV20 is any indicator of Canon's audio across the line, then the XH-A1 will probably be MUCH better. But I'm speculating based on the HV20.

I now own a Sony PMW-EX1 and it's got the best audio I've ever measure on a camera--DAT-quality. But it and the support items it uses will easily add up to tens of thousands of dollars over time.

[Cubinoid]

Very interesting stuff. I so nearly bought this camera! Went for Z1 instead and was just browsing youtube comparing test footage from V1 and reading comments etc. So glad I bought the Z1 - Audio sounds fine on it to my ears, but I might just run some audio tests on it now! Thank you!

[basspig]

Perception of sound quality depends on what is being recorded and also what that recording system is being compared with. You may not miss what is missing until you hear a full-spectrum recording. That's why many users aren't really aware of the problem.

BTW, I have a new XDCam EX that DOES have a flat 20-20,000Hz response. HUGE difference in sound when there's music, diesel engines or other big sound in the scene.

[darrylsmith]

i truly appreaciate this very important report on the audio quality of the V1U. As a NBC Broadcast producer/ Director.

Thanks again.

And make sure Sony knows about this problem.

PLEASE CHECK FOR THIS PROBLEM ON THE NEW 2008 Sony HVR-Z7U... AND LET US KNOW.

THANKS,

THE D MAN.

[basspig]

I have made Sony aware of the problem last year. They refused to acknowledge it, hence this documentary was released to educate owners of the problem and motivate them to contact Sony in numbers.

I now own an XDCam EX and it's audio is DAT-quality. Very happy with the XDCam!

Our database is open, so anyone who get s a Z7 can run the test and e-mail the results for inclusion in my database of video cameras audio tests.

[sexydanny21awesome]

Bass pig i know it has great sound and anyways if not the best you can buy a fucking boom that way youl have way beter sound and that way you dont have pay 7 grand and then buy a boom for fx1

[basspig]

I bought a $200 Zoom H4 and use that with the V1U as a separate audio recorder, but if you've every tried to synch fifty video takes with one continuous audio take from the H4, you know why I just spent 7 grand on the XDCam EX.

[sexydanny21awesome]

This camera got great sound reviwes you are full of bull shit mr pass big saying the fx1 has beter sound that is bull shit and anthor thing you are just trying get people to buy the new sony camera that cost 7 grand so you are ass hole thats full of shit

[basspig]

If it got great 'sound' reviews, then the reviewer is either deaf or Sony is his biggest sponsor. You sound sore because you can't afford an XDCam. Why don't you just go out and buy one, so we don't have to hear you bellyaching over it?

[sexydanny21ishot]

in other word he is trying brin wash you to buy 2008 one even tho this one is fine see so dont belive this ass hole

[sexydanny21ishot]

THIS IS A FUCKING SKAM everyone this guy is trying get you buy the fucking xd cam ex it costs fucking which cost 7 grand dont belive his bull shit

[basspig]

Sounds like a troll. Not a scam, just objective test measurements. Sorry you're no longer happy with your V1U after looking at the test data. If it makes you feel any better, the XDCam died less than 6 hours after it was received. E-15030 shows on display and camera won't start up. 7 grand, and it's now just a pretty looking brick.

[sexydanny21ishot]

I bet this is made by cannon you just wanna make money and make shit up dont you cannon

[newblackmusic]

You did a great job! We thank you. It's so strange seeing that sony makes great PRO audo products. We love their w66 cd recorder and dmx-r100 digital mixers.

We use many of their products in our studio. Good thing we use Canon cameras. Keep up the good work.

PEACE!

[te4s80txmt]

I was a breath away from buying a V1U, before I saw this. Thanks for the info.

[basspig]

The important thing to consider is the application. If it's 'run & gun' at musical events like parades and air shows, you'll want good audio to capture the bass drums and the rumbles of the jet engines. If it's documentary work to be shown on a 19" TV set, the audio won't be a problem. I feel that Sony SHOULD have done better, considering all the features they put into this camera.

[te4s80txmt]

Audio is a big priority for me, and like you I expected that a pair of XLR's meant decent audio performance. Bad assumption! Have you sent Sony a link to this page? It's heartbreaking.

[basspig]

XLRs: Exactly. If my Canon HV20 can do 20-20KHz, then this camera, costing 5X as much, should be as good as a Zoom H4 or a DAT machine. I've been kicked off two pro video forums for discussing this, and even for asking owners of the new XDCam if they would test its audio. The video community is totally irrational about this matter--I am stunned by the reaction by pros such as DSE, etc. 'Been FAXing Sony for months. Deaf ears. That's why this video was made.

[te4s80txmt]

How are the A1U and Z1U? Any idea?

[basspig]

I have no idea. The closest cousin is the FX1 and it fared a LOT better on the tests. Essentially flat to 100Hz and only about 5dB down at 20Hz.

I'm still anxious to find out how the response of the PMW-EX1 is. So far, no one has responded to my request for testing and CreativeCow banned me from their forum for asking!

[csdzjkklsfdewf]

Was the FX1 tested with some kind of XLR adapter?

[basspig]

Probably not. I would have to ask the person who did the test (John Beale).

[Maz1989]

isnt the Sony HVR-V1U the 1080p new one?

[basspig]

It's a 2006 model. This year's model is the XDCam EX (PMW-EX1). It's the one to watch. Now I'm waiting for someone to run a RightMark test on it and reveal whether Sony did better with the audio on the new XDCam before I buy into it.

[anthonyfilms]

just lost another sale from me too.

now I see why they are now asking $3,700 for it now !!!

[basspig]

Looking at the finished auctions on eBay, I note a lot of units not sold with a high bid of $2700, below reserve. I myself am planning on dumping mine in favor of XDCam EX's real soon. It's a shame Sony didn't fix the audio. And a worse shame that so many apathetic owners don't care about the sound.

[Jay1967]

I was seriously think about purchasing this camera.. V1E (im in UK) I assume this problem extends to this model too? Now, I am seriously thinking of overlooking this camera! I think anyone who wishes to take video seriously should do the same for audio.. Its common sense on a Cam at this level. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

[basspig]

I have only two US models here to test, but I have heard the problem on other US models, and just yesterday, a gentleman from Norway said of his V1E: "..it has no bass response whatsoever," in a forum comment. So I would conclude that it's across the board. It rather hurts the useability for run & gun at parades and other events where sound matters but where it's impractical to deal with second audio recording.

[basspig]

When the technology to provide CD-quality sound is in a $20 chip, providing this capability on a $4800 camera becomes something expected--like buying a Porche and expecting that it'll be capable of highway speeds.

Some field shooting situations are 'run & gun' and you can't drag a wheelbarrow full of digital audio gear. Shooting at weddings, with scores of stop/start means a lot of re-sync in post. Unnecessary if the cam performed like a cheap iPod can.

[deepfreezevideo]

Great job. You may very well have something actionable here. This is not the first time Sony has had audio issues either.

[basspig]

I think the key thing here is "truth in advertising". Specifying this camera as "20-20,000Hz" is pushing things way beyond realistic, based on how my two V1Us perform.

[panteltje]

Just return the crap and ask your money back,.

That is the only thing that will have an effect.

[lesliewand]

so why don't you sue?

leslie

[basspig]

That's a great idea. I would do this myself, but I'm too busy shooting videos with these cameras to risk downtime on any one of them. Perhaps I'd have more time, ironically, if I didn't have to record separate audio for everything I shoot, and synch the audio to the video in post. On a wedding shoot with many stops and starts of the camera, that quickly becomes a nightmare!

[mattieb]

Same here this problem they speak of dosent keep me from gett'n paid and if im really worried about the audio i have a mini disk recorder with a mic it cost me $90 on ebay

[Chadfish]

Hey Basspig.

Looks like you need to find a guy to create a mod for the camera. Then you can make a killing like Greg Winter with the VX2100.

You should just sell the audio mod and make a killing.

Chadfish

[basspig]

It's no longer my problem. For me. I sold both of my V1Us already. :-)