What Israelis think about the Olmert inquiry - 28 May 08

[redarrowhead2]

ALLLAH AKBARRRR

[rangga2daikuasa]

FUCK ISRAEL

[lacarneceria613]

joaodaldegan-

The first 20 years of Israeli occupation were years of relative peace & prosperity for both Israelis & Palestinians..

-Palestinian economy was robust on income from Israeli jobs & commerce.

-Free movement in both directions across the Green Line.

-Palestinians did not experience the poverty due to lost jobs

-No checkpoints

-No wall separated Jew from Arab until the Oslo Accords & the return of Arafat & the PLO to Palestine

PASS IT ON!!!

[armageddontime2000]

you are just another shit head,you dont even know who we so-called blacks real are,so you edomite piece of shit can kiss my ass,

[tomerc123]

Israel is one of the BEST countries ever! The press like the "Under-Dock" people, and they don't show YOU the TRUTH. How the Arabs act.

THIS IS A GREAT PLACE FOR A VACATION, ALSO.

[bluesbegedel]

Remember that this great place for a vacation was seized from the Palestinians...

[armageddontime2000]

the real jews are the black slaves.the most high yah of israel said.i know thy works,and tribulation,and poverty,but thou art rich.and i know the blasphemy of them which say they are jews,and are not,but are the synagogue of satan.so go back to europe all you so-called jews.black israelite speak

[wb678]

What the fuck are you on about?

I was talking about the Israelis being interviewed.

[wb678]

Proof that Israelis are stupid.

The religious Israeli is by far the smartest one.

[DoodiePunk]

You see!

Israelis are against corruption & with peace.

Everybody wants peace!

Olmert ruined it :(

[pashtonkhan]

proud of propaganda

[Adolf18891945]

Heil Hitler

[photofu]

israels press is as free as the monkey in a cage, hahaha.

[Inkan1969]

Get real. Just read Haraatz.

[matanamar]

Haaretz*

read it all, hear what people have to say about the government.. and then talk.

[wasy35]

israel has a free press, lol.

[matanamar]

daah.

israel have the best democarcy ever. at least in the culture of it, everybody has their view, we have free press, socialism rules here, at the israeli arabs [not in the west bank] have all their rights!

[Tereeb11]

Ohh man, if we (Arab) can judge our fucking leader, we may not be as we are right know.

Congratulation Israel for the justice and the freedom of speech.

[Inkan1969]

How come nobody here is talking about Ehud Olmert?....

[BamenYaros]

he can go jump off a cliff

[Inkan1969]

Hopefully, these charges will stick. They'll be Olmert's version of Capone's tax evasion charges. With Olmert out of the way, maybe Israelis can elect a government that will be serious about reaching peace agreements and allowing the territories to become a true sovereign State of Palestine.

[BIGMEL1981]

olmert gives isreal a bad name

[sharshur]

Israel gives Israel a bad name.

[matanamar]

oy vey, israel is number one democracy in the region. we are the only country here who save refugees from Darfur, while countries around killing them. we have gay rights, and did u know that arab people in israel live the longest? compared to the middle east.

[sharshur]

Did you take your talking points from the foreign ministry or what? Look, none of those things can even compare to the scale of the injustice, death, destruction, and oppression that Israel has wrought upon "the Arabs" as you call them. I am quite fond of "the Arabs" so go oy vey to someone else. You don't have democracy, you have ethnocracy and ethnic cleansing. I don't want to get into an argument.

[matanamar]

did your country have gay right as israel have?

i have alot of israeli arab friends, they were born in unknown villiges and becouse of "my evil country" they are study in uneversties!, they have work..

israel open ifirmeries in every unknown villige here.. we save so many lives.

u think we dont want to give the west bankers their rights? we do, but we will pay with our lives!

[annarboriter]

Whoa, in a democracy, politicians can be held accountable for their crimes and be forced to stand trial! Wow, but did Olmert have sex with a Jewish intern?

[sharshur]

Israel is not a democracy. It's an ethno-religious oligarchy with disproportionate rights because it has been defined not as a secular state, but as a Jewish state. Politicians getting prosecuted for corruption is not the definition of democracy.

[scoobyDx]

one vote, one citizen.

It's a democracy. Democracy is a system of government whereby the population makes laws through the ballot box.

Now Jordan - that's not a democracy because it has a king. If tomorrow they got rid of the king but say, kept the law saying no jew may be a citizen (on the books today) it would still be a democracy, because each citizen would vote.

Perhaps you would prefer a secular republic? There is a separate issue - is that practical? Lebanon seems like a failure to me.

[sharshur]

One citizen one vote?Yeah right.I'm thinking maybe something where the residents of the occupied territories(I mean the legal ones,not the crazy settlers who have plenty of political power),have AT LEAST as much right to self determination as a newly landed European immigrant who lucked out and happened to be Jewish enough to get to live there.

Lebanon has not failed because of it's form of government,it's failed because it's phony mishmash of peoples with a powerful destabilizer to the south.

[scoobyDx]

When the west bank was kidnapped it's residents were all jordanian citizens. Jordan waved their rights to the land and the people (after they kicked all the Palestinians out of their own country), so now they are stateless.

Israel has no obligation to give them votes - it has an obligation to withdraw, that's all.

And european immigrants? 40% of israeli jews are arab.

[scoobyDx]

lol kidnapped - meant captured.

[scoobyDx]

Lebanon is a failure because the people built a sectarian system - reflecting the sectarian attiudes of the people.

Like iraq with kurds voting kurdish, sunnis voting sunni etc.

Islam rejects nationalism in all it's forms. Any such society would need to be dominated by secular forces - and as the arab world has yet to have a protestant reformation as christianity has i think that's still a bit of a ways off.

[sharshur]

Yes, that is another factor-- exacerbated by the drawing of national lines around different peoples. Lebanon has, in recent history, been occupied quite horribly. I think it might be too early to call it a failure, but we shall see. Maybe nationalism is the failure. Your reasons are correct and I believe mine are as well. Lebanon is a very complex subject-- too much so for youtube comments.

[scoobyDx]

agree - but this has been a MUCH better conversation on a youtube then i'm used to.

THANKS!

:p

[lastnymleft]

Israel is no more a democracy than apartheid-era South Africa, Saddam-era Iraq, or North Korea. Each just perverts it in their own special way. Israel has one of the best *systems* (proportional voting), but it is not a democracy because it disenfranchises millions of people from voting.

I could get an atheist latino lesbian communist elected as President of the US. All I have to do is drive anyone that doesn't agree with me to Mexico or Canada - just like Israel has done with the Palestinians.

[thisisUll]

Zionist Nazis...

[cardieunion]

Israel is a nation full of European jews, Middle Eastern jews, Ethiopian jews (black), Indian jews, muslim arabs, druze arabs, christian arabs, russian christians, and an assortment of other people. We're nazis....but only if you hate jews.

[sharshur]

Zionism is defined by a philosophy of ethnic cleansing and colonialism, not by national citizenship. Some Israelis are perpetrators of Zionism, some are victims of it.

[cardieunion]

"Perpetrators of Zionism"? LOL. And what are you, a Perpetrator of Islam, a religion founded by a pedophile warlord.

[sharshur]

What a brillant argument unsupported by the history!! Perpetrators of zionism are the ones who succeeded in and still succeed in ethinic cleansing and colonising, see my definition above. Scoffing dismissively is a genius form of debate though, I'll give you that.

[Inkan1969]

Some brilliant argument YOU have. You restrict the word "zionism" only to the ethnic cleansing version advocated only by extremists. That's like restrict the word "Islam" only to the fundies.

[sharshur]

I'm sorry, are you telling me there are Zionists who DON'T believe in a *Jewish* state on the land of Israel, a land very recently and still filled with another people? Tell me how that works without ethnic cleansing.

[Inkan1969]

Jewish state in the same way that France is the French state: The historic homeland for Jewish/French cultural heritage as enshrined in the language and the national symbols. That doesn't depend on the demographics.

[sharshur]

Yes, but everyone who lives in France can be defined as French, it's a religious or ethnic description. What of the resident of Israel who are not Jewish? And the Jews who are not Israeli, but decide they would like to live there? There is a fact you cannot escape. Peoples with other lands are usurping lands with other peoples.

[Inkan1969]

Keep the Law of Return for Jewish people, but work out a Right of Return for people displaced to refugee camps. Write down naturalization laws for non Jewish immigrants who want to become citizens of Israel. There you have it. It's not that you can't escape it, it's that you don't want to.

[edStueart]

"Write down naturalization laws for non Jewish immigrants who want to become citizens of Israel. "

Good idea. At the same time, Saudi Arabia could import their labor force from the refugee camps instead of the P.I., Indonesia, Malaysia, etc.

Win-Win-Win for everyone.

[mutayob14]

Dude ,why is it that people like u love to change the subject.

And by the way Saudi Arabia  doesn't employ people from Malaysia.

[LiesMustStop]

Says who? I've worked in Saudi Arabia, and I've seen Malaysians working

The problem is, many Palestinians moved to neighboring Arab Nations, they just seek sympathy etc. I will not lie though, some of them work very hard, but many are not.

Palestinians' main purpose of getting out is to get out, Malaysians Indonesians, Indians, etc come to Saudi for the main purpose of working.

[MushroomNinja420]

Its not a realistic solution as Israel is about the size of New Jersey and almost has a population density almost on par with Japans. You can't just throw angry homeless refugees and their descendants (numbered at 4 million)in such tight space as it would be a disaster (Especially if that's supposed to be a precursor for peace). You'd see people dying by thousands maybe millions in the fighting that would surely ensue.

[Inkan1969]

I think if the right to return is gradually implemented, the States of Israel and Palestine will be able to absorb the population increases.

[MushroomNinja420]

Yeah maybe after 20-30 years of peace and harmony thats realistic but such a thing now would just lead to alot more bloodshed.

[Inkan1969]

Very well, make the return plan a 20-30 year plan, during which economic reconstruction can be implemented in the Occupied Territories. Peace will be worth the patience.

[MushroomNinja420]

What is realistic and needs to happen for the Palestinian refugees is that Arab nations need to stop treating them like shit and Israel needs to give them compensation.

[lastnymleft]

cardieunion: Islam is a religion, and Zionism is a political ideology. You cannot compare the two, as it is an apples versus oranges comparison.

That said, it has been the zionist's wilful intent for the last 60 years (at least) to inappropriately conflate zionism with Judaism, in order to bask in the protection that the false cry of "anti-semitism" allows them to hide behind the smock of the jews. In reality, zionism is nothing more than a political ideology, every bit as despicable as nazism.

[cardieunion]

Lastny, I won't even argue with you. All I'll say is that Israel has hundreds of nuclear weapons, we won't use them first, but our state is non-negotiable. If it comes to an end, those nukes will fly. Good day.

[sharshur]

How brillant. Of course you won't argue-- there isn't an argument to make!!! So your last word is, you all will die. Smashing intellect you are. That IS what it comes down to after all. But WE are the warlords. Yeah. Right. I really do have a sort of pity for you.

[traitor323]

is it really worth it to say such militant things? with nuclear weapons u kill civilians.

great ethics u got mate. God bless the "chosen terrorists"

[vistavision2]

Given the choice of a world where Israeli Crimes Against Humanity vis-a-vis Palestinians are approbated an in the process the destruction of human ethicity or a world

mankind is annihilated as a result of attempting to halt Israeli Crimes Against Humanity.

I'll take the world without mankind.

I'm Tribe of Judah.

Tribe of Israel was disinherited and any True Jews worth would know that.

Zionsits are in fact NAZI' cloaked as as religion so GO TO HELL.

[lastnymleft]

RIGHT, Israel has nukes. So what's with all the existentialist-dread bullshit we constantly hear from Israel, where they MUST have regime change in Iraq, Iran, and Syria, and stop at no end to get it, albeit generally through its US proxy? It clearly has nothing to do with real national security and likely everything to do with expansionism. Zionism is not going to stop until Israel becomes "Eretz Israel". THAT'S what scares the Arabs. End expansionism and colonialism and you will get your peace

[Inkan1969]

That's B.S. The occupied territories may be under threat of expansionism that should be opposed. But expansionism beyond the mandate is ridiculous, an idea that only the outermost fringe would embrace. Demogogues perpetrate the "Eretz Israel" fantasy all through the Arab and Iranian world to manipulate people.

[lastnymleft]

Inkan: It's not a fantasy when Israel and US are controlled by Zionists, and the effect is shown daily. Every "settler" considers the borders of Israel to be "Eretz Israel", and settlers control the politics in Israel.

Ask any member of the "Christian Right" in America where they consider the borders of Israel should be, and you'll get the same answer, for the same reason. Expansionism is in the DNA of Israel. Their early leaders spoke of the grand 100+ year plan, and they have been working it.

[Inkan1969]

Uh, no, expansionism is not in the DNA anymore than usury or kidnapping first borns are. As the more extreme versions of zionism grow more obviously impractical they will lose popularity. A majority of Israelis already want talks with Hamas for instance.

[lastnymleft]

Inkan: OF COURSE it's in the DNA! It's in the Torah, along with that "Chosen People" bullshit! If you are prepared to throw that out (and PLENTY AREN'T) then you have to throw the lot out: Chosen People, and ANY claim to Israel at all. After all, how can you haggle with your god, as to what defines "Israel"? Is the Torah wrong??

[Inkan1969]

The Torah can be interpreted however you want. I'm not going to condemn an entire cultural heritage just because you want to twist some Torah quote into something bad, anymore than I'd want to demonize Muslims by digging up something from the Koran that might be "dodgy".

[lastnymleft]

There's enough dirt in the Torah the Bible and the Qu'ran, to be able to do as you suggest but that's not what I'm doing

I'm saying that creation of the state of Israel was justified on the basis of a specific section of the Torah. If you accept THAT SPECIFIC PART of the Torah, you have to accept it in toto. Israel was defined quite specifically in the Torah, and "Lesser" Israel is not it. If you are going to accept that Israel is justified at all, you HAVE to do so on the basis of Eretz Israel

[Inkan1969]

Bull----. The only person insisting on the "in total" part is you. I don't have to do that, no matter how much you yell at me.

[lastnymleft]

If you can't understand the difference between stressing a point, and yelling, then I clearly gave you too much credit for being bright. My apologies. It won't happen again.

"The only person insisting on the "in total" part is you"

Don't you think "God" knows what he wants, and would be insistent on it...too? Was he wrong to declare it to be Eretz Israel?

(BTW, I'm an atheist, so I think its all a crock of shit, and there is no valid justification for the creation of a state of "Israel")

[Inkan1969]

I think you're the one who can't tell the difference.

[lastnymleft]

So, that's it? You'll make a comment about something irrelevant to that which we are discussing, but you can't rebut my points? I'll take that as a win, then, and will expect to see you around youtube, spreading my points from now on.

Or will you just revert to ignorance, and live in denial that I cornered you into seeing a Truth that you didn't want to see?

[Inkan1969]

Your points have never been anything other than paranoid fantasies about Jews. When you started citing the Torah, I knew that you were a psychopath. There's no use dealing with someone whose brain has been completely rotted with NeoNazi hate that he tries to peddle as "truth".

[lastnymleft]

"When you started citing the Torah,..."

"...NeoNazi hate... ...peddle as "truth"."

According to the JEWS THAT WROTE THE TORAH, I am citing God's opinion of Israel's boundaries. So, according to you, God must be a NeoNazi anti-Semite, right? Wow!

Do you deny that God defined Israel on the basis of what we know as Eretz Israel and not present-day Israel? How dare you defy GOD?

So it's ok to cite the Torah to actually CREATE Israel but not afterward? You are an intellectually dishonest hypocrite

[Inkan1969]

What's with the "how dare you defy God?" when you don't believe in God?

[lastnymleft]

If you believe in the god of which they speak in the Torah and the Bible, then you are in defiance of him regarding the definition of Israel. My beliefs are irrelevant to the matter.

[Inkan1969]

Only by your own interpretation of the Torah.

[lastnymleft]

"When you started citing the Torah, I knew that you were a psychopath."

More like you knew that it was time to avoiding the points, diversionary tactics, and reversion to ad-hominem attacks.

Jews always revert to cries of "Anti-semite!" or "Self-hater!" whenever they lose an argument. It's really quite pathetic. And it doesn't work anymore. You've worn it out.

[Inkan1969]

Who said I was Jewish? The "anti-Semite" accusation is not worn out when it's actually true.

[lastnymleft]

Point me to a single phrase of mine that is anti-semitic.

You are the one labeling me a NeoNazi (like those ones they actually DO have in Israel right now! Have you seen the news stories about them?), simply for pointing out what Jews themselves said that "God" defined in the Torah. How's that for perverted logic!

[Inkan1969]

Not just pointing that out, but implying that all Jews exactly think the same way as your narrow definition of the Torah.

[lastnymleft]

I just wanted to point out that you have AGAIN failed to address the point about what God defines as Israel. You've written two more comments, and avoided answering the question, with diversionary tactics again. Just like you other, more recent comments. As soon as you have been pinned, you avoid the question and start with the ad-hominem attacks. It's a simple question:

Do Jews believe their god defined "Israel" as being "Eretz Israel", or as present-day Israel?

[Inkan1969]

You expect every Jew to give the exact same answer?

[lastnymleft]

It's a simple question. I've seen a number of different EXACT definitions of "Eretz Israel", but they are basically the same, and vary only marginally. They vary SIGNIFICANTLY from what is today's Israel. So I shall redefine the question for you:

Is the Torah defined Israel at or within the borders of present day Israel, or is it beyond those borders?

Surely every Jew can agree on an answer to that question. The definition isn't that vague.

[Inkan1969]

Do you think that every Jew inherently wants Israel to be this Eretz Israel size? Do you still insist on an Eretz or nothing idea?

[lastnymleft]

Again, it's not *me*. It's what "God" said, or, rather, what Jews claim God said. They claim it was the Eretz version, rather than today's version. Fair enough. I think it's a load of codswallop, but if you're going to push for something based on what "God" said, I don't see how anyone can reinterpret *"GOD'S"* apparent-definition as significantly as you suggest. And many jews agree: hence the inherent driving force for expansionism that I mentioned. It'll never stop until they have Eretz Israel

[Inkan1969]

Who are you to tell other people what their God says to them, or how to read their own books? Over time, people have reread and reinterpreted religious texts as the circumstances of the world change. I don't think the number of Jews who read it the way you do is all that many, and you seem to have an agenda to read it such that it demonizes Jews.

[lastnymleft]

Here we go again, "Jews are the victim". What crap. Read the damn book. Eretz Israel is mentioned three times in the Torah. Nobody but a revisionist, or a Nakba denyer, would interpret it to mean the present state of Israel, and they'd be OBVIOUSLY wrong for doing so. Read the definitions! Do you REALLY suggest any jew (or ANYBODY!) could interpret it to be present-Israel? Anybody with a modicum of comprehension, geography, and intellectual honesty, can tell that it doesn't mean present Israel.

[lastnymleft]

Inkan:2of2: And any jew that fights for present Israel but DOESN'T fight for Eretz Israel, is in defiance of their god, as I have noted before.

This is really quite a simple issue. Either:

(1) you support Eretz Israel, as defined by "God", in the Torah, or (2) you are in defiance of "God", and will rot in hell, or (3) you are a common thief, that stole Arab lands, or (4) you are a non-Zionist jew, that refuses to recognize Israel, such as Neutra Karta. There really isn't any other option.

[Inkan1969]

I choose the "None of the above" option. Who'd want to play your game when you've loaded the dice with these biased options designed to make your opponents look bad?

[lastnymleft]

Inkan: I thought of another option: The jews that wrote the Torah lied. There was no promise of the Land of Israel, there was not Chosen People. It's all make-believe.

You can re-word the options in whatever politically correct manner you want, but unless you can suggest any other valid options, that's it, the answer is one of them. What's the matter? You can't handle the Truth?

[Inkan1969]

There are historic ties to the area on which Israel and Palestine are located. A fair agreement needs to be hashed out to respect everyone's ties. You keep playing the fantasy that you're peddling the absolute "truth", just like you were Pat Robertson.

[lastnymleft]

I have historic ties to Africa. As do you, no doubt, and much/all of civilization. How about I go and claim South Africa's gold mines?

You put quotes around the "truth", like that, and you put quotes around the Torah, and the entire justification for Israel's existence.

[Inkan1969]

I put quotes around the reading of the Torah by lastnymleft, read with the purpose of sealing Israelis in a trap. I don't acknowledge that reading anymore than I'd acknowledge Pat Robertson's readings of religious texts.

[lastnymleft]

Well, I keep asking for YOUR interpretation, but you've not been man-enough, or intellectually honest enough, to give me it:

Is the Torah-defined Israel at or within the borders of present day Israel, or is it beyond those borders?

[Inkan1969]

When did you ask me my interpretation? The Israel Proper that now exists, alongside a truly sovereign State of Palestine, seems enough to fulfill the spirit of the tradition.

[lastnymleft]

...and you *should* be "acknowledging Pat Robertson's readings of religious texts" - it's because of Christian Zionist nutjobs like him that Israel gets the US to provide the vetoes when every other member of the Security Council passes a resolution not of Israel's liking, and is one of the lone votes (along with Israel, and the US Marshall Islands) when the General Assembly vote on such. The "Dispensationalists" are the idiots trying to bring about "Judgment Day", in our times, thanks to Israel

[Inkan1969]

Well, I think there's a compromise option that's different from either 1) The Christian Zionist and Kahanist vision of Israel from the Nile to the Tigris, wiping out everyone else, or 2) pushing all the Israelis into the seas. We shouldn't be trapped into those two extremes.

[lastnymleft]

Did Moses "compromise" with "God" on the Ten(?) Commandments? Were there, say, originally 15, but three tablets were too many to carry, so Moses compromised with God, and knocked off five commandments?

"We shouldn't be trapped into those two extremes"

Tell that to God, since he(?) was the one that allegedly defined Israel

It's the Jews claiming they're "Chosen Ones", and were given ERETZ Israel. You can't change the rules after the game has started, or rewrite history for political expediency

[Inkan1969]

Are you sure you're not Pat Robertson writing these posts under a pseudonym? :-) Except for the ultra-Orthodox, few people obey every rule in Leviticus. Few people advocate the death penalty for adultery. Over time the understanding of religious principles has evolved. You ignore that evolution in trying to trap people into a rigid reading.

Besides, Abraham argued God down to finding 10 good people in S&G to spare them. And "Israel" literally means "wrestling with God".

[lastnymleft]

So jews wage jihad against god? Classic!

You've stated your willingness to get rid of some of the less politically-acceptable tenets of judaism, by not accepting God's Israel, so let's look broader. Like at the justification for Israel at all. Surely God didn't mean for the jews to be at home even in present-Israel? Perhaps he'd be happy with Uganda, Argentina, NW Australia, or a state in the US - like the Zionists in 1880 were looking at. And surely "Second Best People" is good enough for God?

[Inkan1969]

I'm not accepting lastnymleft's idea of Israel. lastnymleft is not God.

[lastnymleft]

I've been talking about various *jewish* interpretations

So how about it: now that you've opened the gate to being flexible about what's in the Torah, are you prepared to jettison the "Chosen People" crap? That type of exceptionalism, and ethno-centrism, is probably what has caused jews to be kicked out of 70 countries throughout the ages. You'd be doing yourself a favor

And what about the whole concept of Israel? Surely we can consider ditching that...now that you've opened the gates to such.

[Inkan1969]

So anti-Semitism is the Jews' own fault, because of the "Chosen People" tradition? You're still giving either-or choices: either "Eretz Israel" or nothing. I'm not playing by your rules.

[lastnymleft]

They're not my rules, their God's rules. Take it up with him.

"anti-Semitism is the Jews' own fault" - Only if you lump every problem the jews have ever had in as "anti-semitism". Like I said, they were welcomed into and then ultimately kicked out of 70 different countries by 70 different peoples, over 2000 years. The only constant in all this is jews/judaism. Is it forever OTHER people's fault? Someone akin to yourself answered: "YES, Christians for 600 years, and Muslims for last 1400." HA!

[Inkan1969]

You can't freeze me by declaring your rules "God's rules". Strict interpretation of rules without thought, be they religious texts or constitutions, leads only to conflict.

[lastnymleft]

The Zionists should have thought of that before stealing Palestinian land for the last 60+ years. You can't be just a bit pregnant. Either Israel is justified under the Torah, in which case it must be based on THOSE definitions (even if those definitions vary a little in interpretation), rather than on some make-believe totally different "compromise" of yours that isn't based on an interpretation of the Torah's definition at all such as present Israel. Either way Palestinians are getting screwed

[lastnymleft]

Christianity and Judaism both "evolve" over time because they are human interpretations of holy stories. Islam is supposedly the true word of god, so doesn't bend. That traps them in the 7th Century, but the basic principles are timeless, like the forbidding of usury, which both C&J originally forbade but now accept. Pope JPII even wrote a paper accepting evolution! And now you are willing to abandon Israel for political expediency. I guess that makes Islam the most principled, one true religion

[Inkan1969]

Doesn't bend? We've had plenty of different interpretations of Islam. The Sunni interpretation, the Shi'ite interpretation, the Wahabi interpretation. Just to begin.

[lastnymleft]

Those are more doctrinal differences, rather than ideological differences, much like Baptist may differ from Episcopalean. Enough to create discernable differences, but not enough to fundamentally alter the principal interpretations. Particularly on issues of "Eretz Israel" scale.

[Inkan1969]

I really doubt even a majority of Israelis are that united on the idea that the scale of Israel can only be on the "Eretz" scale.

[lastnymleft]

My comment on scale was to do with the scale of the Eretz Israel *issue*, not the physical scale of Eretz Israel itself.

Having said that, your comment is notable. Previously you were suggesting it was only the Kahanists that were pushing for Eretz Israel, now it seems like you are agreeing it is much more than a fringe. But, as stated, size is somewhat irrelevant: the issue is whether they believe in one of the Torah interpretations, or not. If the latter, then it's a case of "Thieves 'R Us!".

[lastnymleft]

Inkan: "As the more extreme versions of zionism grow more obviously impractical they will lose popularity. A majority of Israelis already want talks with Hamas for instance."

Then why AREN'T they holding talks with Hamas? It's because the politics of Israel is controlled by the settlers, and the Zionists pushing for Eretz Israel.

[Inkan1969]

It takes time for people to exert political pressure. If this desire to negotiate persists, the pressure will eventually change the Knesset.

[lastnymleft]

The settlers control the Knesset now because they are more political than the others. That's not going to change, so the only way the Knesset will change is if the settler's intent changes. And that's not going to change, either, because they justify their actions from the Torah.

The Knesset has had plenty of time to change in the last 60 years, but here we are, with no end in sight.

And, yes, Israelis DO have to believe in the religious justification. If they don't, what are they but thieves?

[Inkan1969]

It won't change if people like you keep believing it can't change.

[lastnymleft]

"people like [me]" have nothing to do with it; I'm not an Israeli. But the people for whom it does matter seem to have spoken: we've had 60 years of Israelis, and we've had 60 years of consecutive days in which there has been expansionism. How long should the Palestinians wait for justice?

[cardieunion]

Lastny, Israel has "expanded" exactly twice, first in 1948 when we fought a war against numerically superior neighbors whose stated intention was to massacre us (this info is widely available), and second in 1967, when we fought another war against numerically superior arabs who promised to once again destroy us. If the arabs force Israel to fight another war, they'll likely lose more territory. The ball is in their court, Israel has made peace with Egypt and Jordan, and it honors that peace.

[lastnymleft]

"whose stated intention was to massacre us (this info is widely available)"

So are the quotes from Israeli leaders saying that was BS that they generated.

nwo101. com/2008/05/famous-jewish-quot­es-to-celebrate.html

??:

ideafix7.files.wordpress. com/2008/04/palestinian_land_l­oss_map.jpg

And it's even more dramatic since 2000. Palestinians are being herded into ever smaller Bantustans. Expansion beyond is predicated upon first removing hard-line opposition regimes. Guess what's happening now?

[Inkan1969]

Somehow, a website titled "new world order 101" does not inspire much sense of reliability. And again you're confusing the real problem of expansion into the Occupied Territories with the Protocals level fantasy of Greater Israel.

[lastnymleft]

Inkan: The quotes were originally sourced primarily from Jewish historians, and have been accepted as genuine. Where they are printed thereafter, is irrelevant.

Is the Torah a "Protocals(sic) level fantasy"? Anybody that follows the Torah HAS to believe in Eretz Israel. If they don't, they surrender their alleged-justification to ANY of Israel. You just don't like to say it because it's not politically palatable at present. That doesn't change the fact that Zionists are working hard to that end

[Inkan1969]

Who says they HAVE to believe in it? You're the only one here insisting on an either-or choice.

[scoobyDx]

You don't think Islam is a political system?

Have you bothered reading the quran or the haddith? Islam is a complete way of life - even dictating the economic systems of a society.

That's what mohammed built. A political system.

[lastnymleft]

scoodyDx: I agree that Islam is a complete way of life...including a political system. But you yourself expand its definition to that, and then in your last sentence try to narrow it back down again:

"That's what mohammed built. A political system."

Comparing a way of life (Islam) with a political system (Zionism) is not appropriate, because of my earlier point. I knew the difference, but didn't want to have to be so wordy. My point is still valid.

[Inkan1969]

Zionism not the same as "Kahane" ism, and more than leftism is the same as communism.

[Inkan1969]

Typos. Sorry. Zionism is not the same as Kanahe ism, any more than leftism is the same as communism.

[lastnymleft]

Inkan: "Zionism is not the same as Kanahe ism"

That's pretty hard to justify, given the history of Zionism, right from the days of the Ilgun and Stern gang terrorists.

[ronpaul2016]

lastnyleft is your typical conspiracy loving douchebag anti-Jew Paultard.

You're a fucking moron, you miserable prick. Ron Paul will never get elected and Israel is more powerful than you'll ever be.

So sad that you weren't born to execute Hitler's plan, eh? Go fuck yourself.

[lastnymleft]

Haha! There you go! It didn't take long for the little Zionist scum to reveal himself! What more to expect of some no-life loser that names himself after his object of hatred, and roams all over youtube watching videos of such.

Get a life, Loser!

NO MORE AMERICAN TAXPAYER BLOOD AND TREASURE FOR ISTEAL - SEND THIS DICKHEAD, INSTEAD!

[ronpaul2016]

I'm not jewish, and I'm no zionist. But it is very obvious you are a jew hating cocksucker.

That's why your "ron paul revolution" won't go anywhere... it is only filled with rejects, racists, and other pieces of shit that have nothing to offer society but to warm up a jail cell or rubber room somehwere.

[lastnymleft]

"I'm not jewish, and I'm no zionist"

Lies, lies, lies. You are a hate-mongering, war-mongering piece of shit Zionist that wants American taxpayers to pay for your Zion, and for American citizens to die for your Zion. Typical sayanim scum. Worse, sayanim scum with no life that names himself for his object of hatred, and spends all day roaming youtube watching videos of the object of his hatred. All this bile just bubbles forth from your mouth. You overflow with hatred, and crap.

[ronpaul2016]

Funny that you call me the one filled with hate as you spew your anti semitic trash all over youtube.

Ron Paul is a douchebag. You're a jackass. That is about all.

Get a life you fuckin fag. Muhammed sucks balls.

[annarboriter]

You failed to mention that Israel is full of Newyork jews and US tax dollars.

[cardieunion]

There are about two hundred thousand American born jews in israel (most have been there over a decade). This is about 3 percent of the Israeli population. As for US aid, at 3 billion a year, this amounts to about 2 percent of Israel's GDP.

[nohealthcare62]

i agree !