EEVblog #239 - PCB Design For Manufacture Part 2

[enuro12]

I've just watched almost two hours of your videos! Really enjoy your knowledge. I wish i understood 1/100th of what you're talking about.

[thenerdyouknowabout]

Where the hell did you get that awesome shirt!!!!???

[MonkeyFCoconut]

I really want to learn something that I don't know already... but it's painful sitting through an hour of video for it. Great video for the beginners ;-)

[flytepark]

@EEvblog. Good video. A couple of things that I'd like to point out. The assembly house isn't necessarily going to charge more to assemble your boards using cut tape. The place we use specifically told us that having the components per-reeled would be a waste of money. They have cut tape feeders and the set up time is no different for them. On penalization, we just gave the PCB house our panelization specs and they panelized them for us.

[madmodders]

Uhm... You've got a capital K for kilo on your silkscreen! ;)

[EEVblog]

@madmodders That's the way it should be, none of this lower case rubbish! :-P

[madmodders]

@EEVblog Yes, that may seem logical, but the Système International d'Unités says otherwise. :-D

[Psychlist1972]

Suddenly, Altium sees a run on their software as 7k people suddenly start using it.

[rasz]

sooo what if you order 250 boards made and they will all fail your accuracy test? :P

[EEVblog]

@rasz I've got a lot of desoldering to do!

[myshots101]

Great videos. I just found your channel this week and started watching the videos. I was wondering, what program do you use on windows to make your videos? I would like to get something but yours seems to work well, I can read what you are showing on your desktop, etc.

[EEVblog]

@myshots101 I use the free package CamStudio and ensure that I have a fixed capture area of 1280x720, so it's exactly 16:9 format and does not need any manipulation in the video editor software.

[myshots101]

@EEVblog Thank you. I thought I saw that but never used it. I got horrible lighting in my room apparently and my cheap point and shoot camera isn't much good indoors either. I also don't like to edit videos myself, they just take forever so whatever makes this less work is good for me.

[sanderoak]

you forgot the opensource hardware logo ;)

[EEVblog]

@sanderoak So I did!

[lowestsodium]

Hi Dave! How come you didn't link your parts through directly to Digikey from Altium? It saves so much time for future parts ordering, by using the BOM generation in Altium, then uploading that excel file directly to Digikey as a BOM that you can save for future use. It saves a huge amount of time each time you need to do a board run.

[ThinkLearnSolve]

failure is not an option!!

[excavatoree]

@ThinkLearnSolve Dave has some of the best T-shirts among youtube bloggers......

[2020fourier]

I dislike digikey because, at least here in the states, they are expensive. Also, can't the PCB house you work with source standard parts for you (maybe a little cheaper than you could)?

[allanw]

@2020fourier What's digi-key expensive with regard to? I pretty much buy my stuff exclusively from there, unless it's LED's.

[2020fourier]

@allanw You should check out mega sites like octopart. You can get prices from multiple vendors there. You will find that digikey is usually high compared to prices you can get elsewhere. Digikey does well because they offer a large selection and people don't want to shop around.

[guruflorida]

You should checkout the 3Dconnexion 3D mouse, it works awesome with Altium - really brings the board out of the monitor somehow IMO - persistence of vision perhaps. Works for SolidWorks too.

[smartieoncomputer]

Hey Dave, you said that PCBs will flex when the Machine places the components on them. At my work, we place supports under the PCBs that are adjustable to most shapes so flexing isn't a problem :P

[eigg892]

What's the max current that we can measure with this?

[jdflyback]

what is this anyway? a current and resistance meter?

[excavatoree]

Thanks for this and your previous video on this subject - great learning material.

[excavatoree]

See, they ARE selling like hotcakes.

[MrDubje]

This is very informative. Im testengineer for a manufacturer of electronics. Pcb's or complete products... we have 2 pick&place machines in line and a reflowoven, also a wavesoldering machine for conventional comp...

It is a complete science, manufacturing this stuff.

[blarque]

is there any reason you dont mention testability at all? there's a video of you handtesting one batch which seems to have take quite a lot of time, if you think high-volume shouldnt that be a factor in this as well, or will you build a custom testjig yourself? If you'd do design an automated test, i'd be really interested in that, whether you'd just build a mechanical testjig and tweek around with your multimeter or something like a whole testsuite which is maybe controlled by a microntroller

[EEVblog]

@blarque An automated jig for precision measurement like this is not trivial. You have to weight up how long it takes you to develop and build that vs how much time you save per unit. I wouldn't save much time, I have manual testing down pat and it's very quick.

[dylanpalmediy]

Whoa, what a coincidence, just watched part one again last night.

[TheCrazyInventor]

I watched all of it and I love it. I think your industry-related videos are the best. This is very good info for me, as I started an apprenticeship on the R&D department of a local assembly house this week. Fantastic timing. :)

[hakima97617]

<3

[Orthosonic]

Awesome!!

I might just buy one from you, despite I have no use for it yet...

Btw, I need more of these hour long videos, they are perfect to watch on the treadmill... :)

[TheLaidukas]

Dave, which Altium version you are using? Maybe you know why Altium no longer fill they library with new components? with each new program version library is the same.

[onjoFilms]

Awesome. This is what I subbed for in the first place. Knowledge.

[Co265]

How do you define the thickness of the stencil and how large are the paste openings?

You have interesting videos :).

[aerextraho]

Do you use Altium to do all of the PCB Design (including panelization)? I am looking for a good software that doesn't need GerbMerge to do the panelization.

[envisionelec]

7:13 The main reason this is a routed area is because the manufacturer cannot put V-grooves in an "inside" area. They must route edge-to-edge.

[f1adore]

how is the makerbot build going?

[fingerboy18]

@f1adore Sagan is probably already making pacifiers!

[EEVblog]

@f1adore It's not, I don't have the time at the moment.

[nebuchadnedzzar]

Secondly, why do you not change to the SOT23-6 version of the MAX4328? it seems to be much more available. (seing as you are re-doing the tooling)

[nebuchadnedzzar]

As for manufacture, have you considered using pick and place solder supplys in 0201, 0402, 0603, 0805 or 1206 formfactor so that you can have the entire board manufactured in a single reflow step, the manufacturer will use a temporary adhesive to the board and then all the through holw components can be made in the reflow oven, I think the technique is called pin and paste

The other technique is that you could design the board so that the SMT stuff is wave soldered.

[AnnoyingVerification]

Hi Dave, primary reason for panelizing is not so much the pick & place or reflow efficiency, but the solder paste stencilling. Because that is a fairly slow process and takes equal time for any size of board. With a small PCB like the uCurrent, it takes longer to apply the paste than to place the parts. At least that's what I've been told by various assembly houses.

[EEVblog]

@AnnoyingVerification That's adds up too. But pick and place can take a long time, much longer than paste application, depending upon the board complexity.

[Wilfredkazoks]

If you are going to put the EEVBlog logo on why not the website URL too?

[EEVblog]

@Wilfredkazoks Any idiot can use Google :->

[Wilfredkazoks]

@EEVblog Perhaps you're talking to one because not being familiar with emoticons beyond smiley and wink I tried to Google :-> and got no hits at all. So I don't know if you were telling me to piss-off or what.

Anyway the irony amused me.

[mspeir]

@EEVblog Goo..gle.. ? What is a Google? :D

[Tuttomenui]

You know you could still make some of the loose boards and have them hand made and rework the text to make them a little different and make a Signature series that cost 100% more. Do some eevblog fundraising and have a few for some kind of giveaway contest. MARKETING.. they do some strange stuff.

Ever see them cordless drills that are "Signature Series' and they are all painted gold and shit. hahaha.

[MickGalt]

snapping the v grooves isn't a good idea unless you want to crack strain sensitive components..

[EEVblog]

@MickGalt You don't "snap" them, you lever them back and forth gently until they break.

[MickGalt]

@EEVblog using a linear cutter is much safer, faster and easier.

[EEVblog]

@MickGalt Unless you don't have one, in which case you can do it safely and easily by hand.

[HammerFET]

@EEVblog Would it be possible to get them routed by the assembler after they've been assembled?

[envisionelec]

@MickGalt As a manufacturer, I know this isn't necessary. :)

[valajbeg]

The video was great as usual, but pls. fit your vids in 30 mins or under. This was almost as long as movie :)

[Mtaalas]

@valajbeg I think it was great. If young whippersnappers don't have the concentration capability to watch long videos (TLDW) then they shouldn't ;)

I just think that @EEVblog has the thing going pretty well.

[valajbeg]

@Mtaalas as i said, video is great... however i believe it could be bit shorter without some extra comments

one more time, Dave is great guy and i LOVE HIS VIDS!

[EEVblog]

@valajbeg This is non-scripted stream-of-consciousness stuff. I do not realise how much I'm saying or how often I repeat things or say umm or mumble until I go to edit all the clips. If it's too long then I'm not going to go back and re-shoot for succinctness. If I did that then I'd never get any videos out.

[fingerboy18]

What's a good way to have incremented silkscreen serial numbers? How's that usually done? Phenomenal continuation of the first video.

[EEVblog]

@fingerboy18 Usually done with an inkjet print of some sort. Not all manufacturers will offer that, gotta ask.

[fingerboy18]

@EEVblog Thanks Dave. Take care.

[jguy584]

Put a link to the ucurrent sign up in the video info!

[The123jeffrey]

6:57 that giant red board!!! I want to lick it!!

[Zadster]

What's that, Maxim parts difficult to find in the package and quantity you want? Oh surely not, that never happens! (That was sarcasm by the way). Excellent video Dave, packed full of good stuff (and that certainly wasn't sarcasm - I've yet to see a dud video from Dave)

[KiloSierraAlpha]

Sourcing components yourself and shipping them to assembler sounds like a giant pain in the butt. Why not just manufacture the compete product in China since you're doing it in volume? There are shops that do all the sourcing for you and the cost is reasonable.

[turbochargedbrick]

@KiloSierraAlpha Sure - but then you might lose the opportunity to optimise your design to use the best parts possible for cost/availability.

[EEVblog]

@KiloSierraAlpha It's easy. Have your BOM in Digikey, and then re-ship when you get the box - or get shipped direct to the supplier if you like. Once you do the hard work up front, it's al done. I don't want to go to China for the whole thing, on principle, I want to keep jobs and business local.

[KiloSierraAlpha]

@EEVblog Dave, that's a good point. For one product's overrun, I tried the same thing... keep the jobs local (i'm in US). The devices took 2x as long to produce in US, were almost 70% more expensive and the work was not as good as of the products that came out of China. It's commendable to try to keep work produced locally but I would never do it again. Stuff out of many Chinese shops is just too good and cheap to pass up on. Depends on the complexity of devices too.

[Mtaalas]

@KiloSierraAlpha That's because all the know-how is in china these days. It's really sad... but hey... follow the money.

[KiloSierraAlpha]

@Mtaalas You're absolutely right. All the know-how is in China and they have the latest SMT machines, the latest test machines and on and on. And they're much cheaper than American shops and I've had less defects with Chinese made products. Turnaround is also much faster.

Not sure how we can reverse this trend...

[envisionelec]

@KiloSierraAlpha My experience is even worse. On one project, 1 out of 5 boards didn't work and they took two months! No BGA, nothing smaller than 0603. I will never assemble in the US again.

[BulletMagnet83]

@EEVblog It's a good thing to want :-) I'd personally rather China didn't have us all completely by the balls when it comes to electronics manufacture... and THEN there's the whole counterfeit components issue. I've known two friends to have non-trivial house fires started by Chinese knock-off PSUs.

[fingerboy18]

@EEVblog That's an extremely respectable thing to do. The extra money should circulate back to your community in time!

Is it worth being kept in the U.S. for my boards even if it's 10x the price? I've always had prototype PCBs made in locally, but I plan on making thousands if market interest suggests.

I want to do whatever I can for my own economy, but it's hard to when our success is resting on cost. Component costs aren't in my favor as it is.

[mspeir]

OK, so let's say that I am manufacturing 250 pieces and I can only gets reels of 500. Can I get the left overs back from the assembly plant?

[turbochargedbrick]

@mspeir Yes, they can ship them with the boards. Some moisture sensitive parts might need special sealing & baking the next time around however - again a good assembler can do all of this just don't forget to remind them.

[mspeir]

@turbochargedbrick So, when he mentions wasted parts, it is in reference to the assembly facility and not a loss of the extra parts?

[turbochargedbrick]

@mspeir The assembly process - parts can be lost when feeding the machine if the utmost care isn't taken, the machine can also drop parts - these are discarded. Likewise if the machine's cameras don't recognise the part for whatever reason the part is rejected.

[mspeir]

@turbochargedbrick That part I understand, but I got the impression that anything left on the roll was lost. As in the assembler kept the left overs. Probably because I watched it in the middle of the night...

[GLaDOSProductions]

and I just watched part 1 again 10 minutes ago :)

[fingerboy18]

I'm so excited for this! I watched the first video about 10 times! Thanks again Dave. I'm only 40 seconds in, haha!

[jfernandmy]

I will see this video again anf again, like it!

[turbochargedbrick]

legend!