12 Days of Christmas Special: Day 9-Papist Christmas

[JohnTheHutDweller]

this one I don't understand. when did the dude change the definition of grace? can anyone help me out on that? I liked all the other videos. I think this one is the only non-sensical one. I am not a catholic but I still don't get this one

[BaronGrackle]

Try the book of James. Second chapter's a good one, in particular. :)

[JohnTheHutDweller]

@BaronGrackle I don't get this one, where did the dude in the video change the definition of grace?

[BaronGrackle]

@JohnTheHutDweller The punchline goes back to the "faith and works" question. God's perfect grace, versus our willingness to work and participate. :)

Faith alone and grace alone would mean that no good works are necessary to receive Christ's salvation. But Catholics, some Lutherans, and others believe that good faith cannot exist unless it also has good works.

[JohnTheHutDweller]

@BaronGrackle I believe Faith and good works are the same thing. Faith is active not static. faith is putting one foot infront of the other, faith is acting upon your belief, justing in your belief and living it out. Do you believe this is wrong or incorrect? if yes, please explain

[BaronGrackle]

@JohnTheHutDweller I also believe that faith and good works are connected so strongly that they cannot be easily divided. I'm pretty sure this is the teaching of the Catholic catechism as well.

[JohnTheHutDweller]

@BaronGrackle I am Eastern Orthodox. I see no need for the Marcions, the Luthers, Arius' or the JohnCalvins of this world. Peace to you brother. add me as a contact/friend and I will accept

[cjsirrah]

Did some dude just say "infallible Magisterium"? ROFLMAO



[cathapologist]

Great. You completely misrepresented the doctrine of grace as taught by the infallible Magisterium.

[bcsny47]

I don't mind satire directed at the Catholic Church. As Scotty said, "We're big enough to take a few insults." But I am disappointed that the faith is misrepresented (:38 to :52). It is all grace. Our works don't earn salvation, they are the result of it. Sacramental grace is sanctifying, it is for our holiness. It is a part of salvation. In other words, it Ephesians 2:8-9 AND 10! Not just 2:8-9 as I so often heard it in Evangelical churches I was a member of.

[RomGabe]

@bcsny47 You do realize that some American Lutherans (like the LCMS) like to distance themselves from the label Protestant or Evangelical ... because of the confusion it causes and association with non-denominational/Baptist/ref­ormed/calvinist theology driven American Protestantism ? ... Actually Lutheran believe in the whole Bible (without trying to ignore passages or understand the mysteries of God by mis-fitting verses into a systematic system).

[RomGabe]

@bcsny47 Lutherans believe in Eph 2:10 also, and to me this verse sounds like the life of Sanctification with God. An easy way to explain it is ... we (God's regenerated and baptized children) are like a glove and God is the hand (doing/accomplishing His work thru us).

[RomGabe]

part 4. lutheran comment from beggarsall.blogspot.com about Eastern Orthodoxy "They'll tell you that truly understanding what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches takes a lifetime. In this way it is nearly impossible to nail down what it is that the Eastern church teaches on anything as they keep drawing you in." ... sounds to me that figuring out the differences between the EO and the lutherans is like the task of nailing jello on the wall ... good ridance!

[RomGabe]

part 3. lutheran comment from beggarsall.blogspot.com from beggarsall.blogspot.com "Beware, however, because there will be those who visit here to comment who will say Bishop Ware doesn't speak for all of Eastern Orthodoxy. But if he doesn't, who does? They'll say our differences are just because of perspective and our language barrier, or they will give you some quote from a father of the Eastern church that says what you want to hear."

[NicholasMyra]

@RomGabe Who infallibly speaks for MS Lutheranism? The auto-interpreting bible?

Take it to a forum, bro. These are youtube comments. They're only good for quick notes, internet memes and flame wars.

[RomGabe]

@NicholasMyra Thanks for the response and recommendation. I will take it, since I am by no means interested in flame wars, but in better understanding how and where Eastern Orthodox and Confessional Lutherans differ (& I attend both churches here in DK). As far as MS Lutheranism, the answer to your question "should be" The Book of Concord - (where one finds) the Lutheran Confessions. What about the EO, where can I find the official catechism and recorded church Holy Tradition ?

[NicholasMyra]

@RomGabe "should be"? Why should it be?

I don't think Lutherans are particularly stupid or unimaginative as to need some sort of in-lieu-of-pope document. They have plenty of traditions and beliefs that go beyond the Book of Concord and get along accordingly.

As for the "official catechism" of the Orthodox Church, glory to God there is not one, and hopefully never will be one.

[RomGabe]

@NicholasMyra ... "should be" not in the sense that you read it ... but in the sense that any confessional lutheran will know that what their church believes is found in these documents collected in this book, aka Book of Concord (agreement). This was necessary, historically speaking, due to the 16th century disagreements in the Western Church, and there is plenty of references in the NT to the need to "confess" (or "have a confession") of Faith, no?

[RomGabe]

@NicholasMyra ... so in light of that (NT verses and passages on confessing one's faith) ... what is wrong with having a Confession (eg Book of Concord), especially since it is so clearly stated and backed not only with Bible reasoning but also the testimony of the holy Church Fathers ?

[NicholasMyra]

@RomGabe Nothing is wrong with a confession of faith, I.E. creeds, the book of Concord being a creed. My point is, rather, that Christian creeds typically arise out of opposition to a perceived error, and thus never arise in a systematized or "holistic" fashion. The Nicene Creed does not speak about the nature of Justification, for example, because it did not arise in opposition to a heresy about Justification.

[NicholasMyra]

@RomGabe therefore, it is improper to assume that any creed sums up the entirety, or even most, or even a fraction of, a Christian Confession. St. John of Damascus produced a complete Summation of the Orthodox Faith, for example which is not (and should not be expected to be) a complete Summation of the Orthodox Faith.

[RomGabe]

@NicholasMyra ... sorry for the extended comment ... but my difficulty (my beef) with the EO is tha ambiguity of its theology or rather the sources of theology (as you said no "official catechism"). Simply saying that theology is found in the prayers and liturgy of the Church makes it very difficult for the Western Christians to have any concrete and fruitful ecumenical discussions with the Eastern Christians (imho). What says thou?

[NicholasMyra]

@RomGabe To be honest, Mr. Gabe, I don't think Christianity is meant to be easy to understand or communicate in ecumenical dialogue. Christianity requires a child's faith, but not a child's reasoning, nor, as Martin Luther himself attested, a child's experience. There is a reason why a wise Martin Luther asserted that one must, perhaps, fall greatly, to truly appreciate God's mercy and grace.

[NicholasMyra]

@RomGabe That said, I have never been a western european religious, save for American cultural influences and one or two things I learned from my mostly-lapsed parents. I do not have an in-tact version of that worldview. To speak the same language, I think we must utilize more recent philosophies which can bridge the gap where medieval philosophies are incompatible.

I would recommend the writings of Fr. John Meyendorff and Fr. Alexander Schmemann if you want to learn more about EO.

[RomGabe]

@NicholasMyra thanks for your thoughts and feedback. Not sure I follow your logic or I understand everyting you have written. I do have Meyendorff and Schememann (as well as the 4 vol of Filokalia) in my Orthodox Christian library. I would hope that West-East can reach some agreements and have Christ-like convesations.

[NicholasMyra]

@RomGabe Authoritative statements that the Orthodox Church has made can be found in the Ecumenical Councils, in canonical icons, in the *combined* writings of writers like St. John of Damascus and St. Athanasius the Great, etc. Thankfully, there is no single document or mortal ruler who gets to undeniably list out the teachings. If there were, people may be led to believe that God is a platonic unity that produces multiplicity, and other such nonsense.

[RomGabe]

part 2. lutheran comment from beggarsall.blogspot.com on EasternOrthodoxy "The following words are taken from Bishop Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Church, 2nd Ed., pp 221-225. These words will send a chill through the spine of any Confessional Lutheran. When I reached this point in my examination of Eastern Orthodoxy, these words sent me running back to the salvation freely given to me by God when I was baptized in the Lutheran church. That was a vital turning point for me, a lifelong Lutheran."

[RomGabe]

part 1. lutheran comment from beggarsall.blogspot.com on Eastern Orthodoxy "Dear brothers in Christ, If you don't get the problem right, you will not get the solution right. Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy disagree on the problem, and therefore the solutions offered are different. This is why we have the doctrine of Justification and they have the doctrine of Theosis. The following words are taken from Bishop Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Church, 2nd Ed., pp 221-225."

[RomGabe]

WOW ... so true ... you really nailed this one on the head brother. When I read the "Joint Declaration" it sounded to me (a lay history aficionado) as just saying we use same terms but have diff. definitions and we agree to understand that the other has diff. definition. That is not much "joint-ing" in that kind of declaration, no?

[indianapwns1]

This was awesome. When are you going to satirize John Piper and his Desiring God law-Gospel-law sandwich?

[SporloMBSSB]

@cburton103: o the whole world, would your reaction be to keep on living as if that someone meant nothing? Lutheranism never implies that you *shouldn't* or *don't have to* obey God. Lutheranism simply recognizes that doing so is humanly impossible (hence our need for salvation).

(please speak up if I said anything stupid here, I hate to confuse people.)

[NicholasMyra]

@SporloMBSSB "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

[BearealisGames]

@NicholasMyra In that verse, Paul is talking about enduring hardships, not being perfect.

[NicholasMyra]

@BearealisGames wut

[SporloMBSSB]

@cburton103: the problem is that *everyone* disobeys God's commands. If we had any role in our salvation, no one would be saved. But that's why Jesus died for us. Yes, we *must* obey God always, but if that was even possible, we wouldn't need Jesus. If you actually believe that you were saved *by God* and that God knows better than you, you're going to want to do good works by helping others and telling everyone the good news of Jesus' death/resurrection. If someone gave a life saving gift to t

[cburton103]

@SporloMBSSB Thanks for the response. The issue here is that Catholics don't claim we have to be sinless to attain everlasting life. I fully agree that if we understand what Jesus did for us and have faith in him, it would be unthinkable to not give our life to him through all of our actions.

This doesn't change what James 2 says, however. Our good works complete our faith, and through our faith and works we are justified by God's grace. What are your thoughts on James 2:24? God bless.

[DTcorn77]

@cburton103 Phillipians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Works are a product of our salvation, not the cause of it. And we can choose to not do wthe works God provides for us, and our faith can weaken. But Mark 16:16 and Romans 10:9-11 are pretty clear about what is required for salvation, and works aren't mentioned. This is just my layperson interpretation, maybe somebody else can explain better.

[cburton103]

@DTcorn77 I appreciate your response. What do you think about the parable of the sheep and the goats in Mt 25 in light of your response? God bless you in this Christmas season.

[cburton103]

I understand that this is supposed to be satire, but for anyone who actually takes this seriously, consider this: Catholics believe that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation in and of ourselves - it is a free gift of grace from God. However, numerous times throughout the New Testament we are told that we must remain in God's kindness, do the works set out for us by God, etc. What happens if we ignore God's commands? Can we really even say that we have saving faith if we don't obey God?

[spirithound]

*embarrassed*.....which one is the Lutheran, and which one is the Catholic?

[NicholasMyra]

@spirithound The one on the left is Lutheran, the one on the right is Catholic, and the Santa in the middle is the true faith.

[Sapphonouveau]

I had something clever and witty to say but then I figured it could just be summed up with a simple LOL!

Who's next, I wonder?

[1517CalvinMartin]

Excellent! Are you going to include one on Eastern Orthodoxy too?

[NicholasMyra]

@1517CalvinMartin Now I'm excited to see how Mr. Fiene animates two of the cartoon avatars beating each other over the head with brooms, superimposed over the Jerusalem skyline.

[RomGabe]

@1517CalvinMartin Boy .. wouldn't that be a treat ? Afraid EO is a headache when it comes to cracking it. Their authority is Holy Tradition and Holy Bible. But when it comes to calling into question what so and so bishop has written, then we are told, that person does not have the final word. They have diff. def on Grace, Free Will, and Original Sin.

[RomGabe]

@1517CalvinMartin Eastern Orthodoxy (part of the Eastern Church) ... has had difficulty in ecumenical talks with the Western Church (RCC and Protestants) first and foremost because the two Churches speak differently (west in a legalistic, scholastic way, east in apophatic, mystery and greek philiosophical way).

[rbz707]

Brilliant!