I can hear it now...Christian apologist says, "We all start in Heaven as tiny little souls that descend to Earth and attach themselves to that single cell that results from the union of sperm and egg. So unfortunately, Jesus was being totally redundant when he said that. He must have blanked on that piece of common knowledge because Mary hit his head on the manger when she laid him in it. Come on atheists, is that all you've got?"
the word in Hebrew is PLURAL and does not refer to heavens. it refers to realms. Elijah is in our physical universe. God is in the highest of all realms, but He is also in all realms. no one has ascended to all the realms, and no one has seen the Father who is in the seventh and last realm.
@carlsonap16 Ahh, I see. An interstellar magic chariot took Elijah to an exoplanet in another star system. Are magic chariots permitted FTL travel? If not, it's rather limiting of his possible destinations in the intervening 2500 years. Undoubtedly, however, your interpretation is correct- despite the fact that the goat herders who wrote these stories believed the world was flat, that Yahweh lived in the sky, and that outer space was full of water.
no i dont believe in magic or in miracles. i only believe in the laws of nature. and you are ignorant of the facts: first of all your knowledge of the universe is dependent on fools who blindly followed their teachers without doing the scientific themselves. whether its blind faith in religion or science, blind faith is evil and the cause of all this damned evil in the world. and nowhere did they believe the earth was flat; even most educated atheists would admit i am right no this.
@carlsonap16 and they didn't believe He lives in the sky. they believed He filled all places with His Spirit. as to the water in out space, they did not believe space was full of water, only that it had a small amount of water in between the first sphere and the second sphere.
@carlsonap16 okay, but surely you realize that the whole bible must be taken with a pinch of salt. the scientific understanding of the people who wrote it was next to none. Just because the bible doesn't say "the world is flat" or "space is filled with water" does not mean that the people of the time did not think that. If your a modern day christian you must either live in denial or accept the bible is a metaphor.
@jony1710 nope. almost no one in the ancient past believed the world was flat even educated atheists acknowledge this. as to space being filled with water, everyone knew space was huge, and no one believed space was filled with water in a way you are suggesting it. as to your claim at the end; both are wrong. i believe the bible is literal, but i reject anything that is proven to be illogical. currently the evidence to me supports the bible, but if you have scientific evidence lets see it.
@carlsonap16 most people of the time had their own opinion on weather the world was flat or not or simply did not care. there was no scientific consensus at the time so the argument is pretty void. if you are asking for evidence that disproves God then i am afraid it is impossible to disprove such a thing just like i cant be sure i'm not in the matrix at the moment. If you are truly follow the scientific method then you would arrive to the conclusion that the bible is not the literal word of God
@carlsonap16 okay, i guess this was from earlier comments. I haven't read past the first page. there are a number of papers on the subject all peer reviewed and accepted. Just google "observer instances of speciation" and its the first link. that is very strong evidence of evolution.
@jony1710 almost everyone i have asked this question to has referred me to the "experts" rather than gave me a list of reasons of proof themselves. i think one should be able to defend their beliefs with their own words if they indeed have been convinced. i dont accept an expert's claims as proof, but i do accept a claim from anyone be they expert or not as long as there is the logic to back it up. i'll look into the link. in the meantime, i suggest you make sure what you believe has proof =)
@carlsonap16 well, what you are saying seam a little illogical to me. if i were to prove everything i was told i would have to reinvent the wheel as well as a lot of other things. this said you would have to take somebodies word. Can you give me a well thought reason why i would trust the scripture of a bible over the scripture of several peer reviewed papers from the top minds of out time?
@jony1710 Scripture claiming something is not a scientific argument,its a philosophical argument.in re to science,im looking for the scientific proof one way or the other, regardless of the Scriptures.scientifically,neither should be your source; neither bible or peer reviews.Bible might accurately tell us what is true, but the scientific proof is not the Bible,but the science that backs it up. i'm looking for wahtever the truth is, but i wan to see the scientific backing,& not academic backing.
@carlsonap16 maybe it seems illogical to you, but to me, it does not; i seek to prove all things, including science and other things. i trust no man because i have experienced enough idiocy and willfull blindness and deception. i can not in good conscious trust really anything someone says as being true.
@carlsonap16 peer reviewed papers that claim a truth such as the process of evolution that get accepted are not mere speculation. It is hard evidence that has come to pass through the scientific method. You will not find a more trustworthy source of information. The bible was not designed to be a source of scientific information, it was meant to guide humanity. I would say you would be hard pressed to find a worse source of information.
@jony1710 just because its not mere speculation does not make it scientific. it also has to be proven that the scientific method is even the method that should be the basis of determining what is scientifically true, which i challenge. the scientific method itself is not unscientific, but it does not adequately in my rendering capture the full scientific truth. in other words, without a small dosage of philosophy at least, there is no science.
@jony1710 ignore the bible, and lets focus on the science.do you really think scientists are reliable when they market drugs after testing them for a few years only and not long term testing?
@jony1710 that is true, but i would suggest the majority of what is researched makes many assumption in which not every variale is evaluated because they presuupose its not worthy to study the alternative possibilities. sometimes its okay because they conclude correctly. other times however thei conclusions are way off because it did not fairly evaluate all the variables but ignored several important ones on the bias that they were not important enough to study.
@carlsonap16 they cant account for every variable and if they come to wrong conclusion, another will prove them wrong. this is the only way it can work without being omniscient.
@jony1710 i understand and agree only in some ways with what you are saying. you cant check every example. however, i believe the general principles you can exhaustively determine. but also keep in mind with a community, we can help each other figure out the truth. it would just be nice if people didn't make assumptions that weren't warranted. most people accept what their textbooks or teachers told them is the truth. as for me, i will accept something if someone can prove it to me thru science.
@carlsonap16 I accept what my teachers told me because it gets me the grades. i know its dummed down.this is because not everybody can have a complete understanding of things like particle physics so the classical model is taught in school. I am 100% sure that the process of evolution is possible but it is impossible to prove that it is the cause for the diversification of life on earth as we do not have time machines. cont..
@jony1710 i was referring more to the pursuit of knowledge rather than academic endeavors. obviously if you are trying to get a grade from someone then you have to play your game.
@carlsonap16 if you are under the impression that any academical thinks that what is written in papers/text books is law then you are very wrong. Just look at the faster than light neutrinos. these people have found evidence that contradicts the theory and have asked people to poke holes in there experiment but are still considering the alternate hypothesis that they are FTL. Some physicists are even theistic albeit not religious. a prime example was Eisenstein.
@jony1710 sure there are ones who do ? some things, but they often never question the foundation.they are a few oddballs here and there who dance with these kinds of ideas.but there is usually an unspoken rule of certain topics you are not to question because to do so would be absurd "obviously".also mainstream science silences the voice of these few loners.it is difficult to change the perception of the world especially when money and tradition is involved.tradition is powerful and controlling.
@jony1710 i'll say one thing: if creationism did not have scientific support, then it would be wrong. i would encourage all interpretations to be studied as long as they are approached from a scientific perspective. many have tried to argue that creationism should be taught in the classroom. that should only be the cass if they can present actual scientific theories and not mindless quotations from Scripture. a science class is intended for science and not theology.
@carlsonap16 i agree, creationism has its place in explaining the world to people who have little interest in the truth. Just because scientists don't have a definite answer does not mean that creationism should be taught in its place. Creationism just does not fit the evidence.
@jony1710 there are some creationists that do attempt to prove creationism with science, and they make some good arguments in some areas, but in other areas, whent hey don't have an answer for the science, they immediately revert to unquestioning acceptance of a scriptural claim. i believe we should all be humble enough and be willing to say we don't know when someone asks us a question we can't answer. and then, after that we should try and find an answer
@jony1710 i don't think its an impossible request,but you have stated your honest beliefs so i thank you for expressing yourself.i intend to proe what the truthi s on the matter in the future.whether it be evolution or creationism.whatever the case,i seek to prove it thru the science.i already have many great theories which are underdeveloped.one ex is why humans have no hair.reason is we wear clothes,& over time,the genetic code responded to our wearing of clothes by coding it into the system.
Thank you for this vid. Easily one of the first parts of Christianity that I came to question. One idea though: perhaps the chariot took a path around heaven, then descended :)
@BlackMetalPoser The Hebrew word is 'shamayim'. E.g., in Gen 24:7, Abraham calls Yahweh "the god of shamayim." Gen 28:12 says shamayim is where the angels of God are. Deut 4:9 says that Yahweh is the "god in shamayim." Deut 26:15 says shamayim is God's "holy habitation." Ps 2:4 says shamayim is where God sits. Ps 11:4 says shamayim is where Yahweh's throne is. Ps 14:2 says shamayim is where God looks down on humans. Ps 20:6 says shamayim is where Yahweh hears his people & sends them help from.
(con't) @BlackMetalPoser There are lots more passages like the ones I've quoted. The word is also used to refer to the air, where the birds fly, the firmament, and that sort of thing. Bottom line: the people writing these texts believed that Yahweh lived in the sky.
no no no no no. the funny part is that this makes jesus' 'miracle' with bringing lazerus back kinda lame. apparently anyone can partake in that old nemesis of christianity called necromancy - even jesus! XD maybe his omitting of elijah in john is to remove the 'oh wait! someone did this already!' part of bringing men back to life?
ProfMTH, you are missing the obvious. Jesus suckled on Mary as baby and seeing (and sucking on) breasts the size of your head can make anybody (or at least any heterosexual male) forget anything. How can you expect him to remember a triviality like Heaven after breasts the size of his head? That is why he forgot about Elijah.
That site explains why its not a contradiction. The word 'heaven' doesn't always mean the same thing in Scripture...especially when you're comparing Old Testament and New Testament verses. You're basically comparing Hebrew and Greek. The Hebrew word is talking about the physical 'heavens' aka the sky. The Greek in the John verse is talking about the actual abode of God.
@DreamsofMajesty "The Hebrew word is talking about the physical 'heavens' aka the sky."
It's the same Hebrew word used in Ps 2:4 to identify where Yahweh "sits", in Ps 11;4 to identify where Yahweh's "throne" is, in Ps 20:6 to identify the place Yahweh hears the prayers of his devotees, in Ps 53:2 to identify from where God "looks down" on humans, in Ps 57:3 to identify from where Yahweh sends salvation, in Ps 76:8 to identify the place from which Yahweh sends judgment. I could go on.
@ProfMTH I love how apologists try to reconcile the obvious bullshit in their book. 'Well, see, if we take this translation and the meaning of the word at the time we can make this shit say whatever we want'.
@ProfMTH I'm beginning to love you more and more each video! You have great work and you have a great mind.. you also do a very well job at stumping the loony christians that enjoy arguing with their own bible. They know they see the problems but they also know how to fix them because unlike Bronze Age writers we all were educated in literature to proof read and create rough drafts/ final drafts.
@DreamsofMajesty There may be a real deity but in the Bible they are speaking about a great big entity that lives in the sky above a flat Earth. Questioning this doesn't necessarily go towards Atheism if you are afraid of that but can purify your belief regardless of the destination/ state of your belief in your journey through life.
Obviously Moses went up Mount Sinai for a reason. It's because a mountain was thought to be so high that it could be used as a ladder to get nearer to heaven
If this is true it is another blunder as it states, one of many, because another writer of the NT has Jesus saying that John the Baptist is Elijah when the Hebrew leaders ask Jesus to prove that he fulfills the prophesy (which he fails and is crucified for because as laid out in Isaiah and other books, the Messiah had to follow Elijahs return and kill the Jews enemies with swords and fire from heaven.
Straight from the Bible- proving the Bible wrong, cause those guys were lazy
@IfinduIgetu "I just looked this up in my bible ..."
Not sure what bible you're talking about. I just looked this up in my NIV, New American Standard, King James Study, Living English, and New World Translation Bibles and he's got it right.
All these claims of "OUT OF CONTEXT!" would be perfectly valid, if only the people making the claims could explain just what parts are being taken out of context and what the 'true context' actually is. But they don't explain, so they continue shouting those 3 words at the top of their lungs and sounding like idiots.
@Cacmypants - Even if the translation was bad, it's still a 2,000 year old book. Times have changed, Bible historically inaccurate and we have more knowledge that they could have imagined. The laws of the bible are pretty cruel and people like to pick and choose what they like and will follow. Example, Sodom and Gommorah. God destroyed a town of beastiality and homosexuals, but failed to do anything when Lot's daughters got him drunk, raped him and had his children. Bible school neglects this.
The English translation of 2 Kings 2:11 is the problem. The Hebrew word translated heaven there is the same word used in Genesis 1:6-8 to describe the firmament, the area between the waters on Earth and the water vapor canopy that was originally at the outer edge of our atmosphere. Today we call this the sky, and that’s really where 2 Kings 2:11 says Elijah was taken, up into the sky.
It's the same word used in Ps 2:4 to identify the place where Yahweh "sits", in Ps 11;4 to identify where Yahweh's "throne" is located, in Ps 20:6 to identify the place Yahweh hears the prayers of his devotees, in Ps 53:2 to identify the place from which the biblical god "looks down" on human beings, in Ps 57:3 to identify the place from which Yahweh sends salvation, in Ps 76:8 to identify the place from which Yahweh sends judgment. I could go on. So Yahweh lives in "the sky"?
that txt bugged me as its misquoted by some churches so I reread it; Nicodemus was supposed to be a leading teacher but did not believe jesus, so jesus is saying no one has taught the completeness of god but him who is from god.So did Elijah go to heaven? yes! he just never came down To teach.Have there been others? yes, Enoch, Moses even FROM THE GRAVE and 10000 went with jesus see jude 1:14 ,matt 27:52 mark 9:4 jude 1:9 Gen 5:23-24. Thanks for the vid ,it did make me inquire of a bigger answer
@onlyhumanme "so jesus is saying no one has taught the completeness of god but him who is from god"
Except that's not what the passage has Jesus saying. I mean, sure, one can simply change the text to make it say whatever one wants and, Voila!, no problems. But that's not an intellectually honest approach to these writings.
@ProfMTH Nicodemus in the beginning thought that he was a teacher 'come from God' but the truth was he was not elijah or any other profit he was the lord god from heaven and the basic things of salvation that he was sharing with nicodemus a supposed leader jews (the supposed chosen ones) he could not understand(the jews thought they needed nothing and were awaiting a glorious king).
Its as it is starting from John 3:1 onward. hope this helps mate.
Jeepers, you could of come up with something more plausible than that explanation...
What about something like.. Yes, Elijah did go up to heaven, but only to heaven. Jesus is referring to no one being lifted up to be with the 'presence' of God. i.e being in Heaven and in the presence of God is different.
Even though I'm an atheist, sounds like id be a better Christian than you .
@onlyhumanme "The bible says no one has even ascended or decended FROM THE GRAVE like jesus did."
Actually, that's *not* what the Bible says. None of the relevant passages says a word about "FROM THE GRAVE." Why are you changing the Word of God? According to the Bible, he takes an extremely dim view of that.
Jesus was clearly talking about flesh and blood. Human beings have to transform before entering heaven. Luke 20:34-:36 explains that in the resurrection humans will be equal to the angels. Just because you've lost faith don't steal it from others. For someone who doesn't trust the bible you sure spend a lot of time on it.
@ProfMTH What it means is obviously it's of interest to you. Did Elijah ever go to heaven? He went to the place Jesus and the thief went after the crucifixion., Where all men are judged according to their acts..
There are multiple layers to heaven, but it is just that. Only the weak minded person loses faith to anothers beliefs. You are entitled to your opinion, but as long as you make videos you'll get a response. If you don't believe in the bible don't read it. I think you want to believe.
@ProfMTH BTW. I think you are talented and entertaining. My feedback doesn't discredit that. I will however, enlighten Christians and teach them through proof in the gospel. These aren't truly contradictions they just need to be explored.
The Bible interests me a lot & I enjoy sharing what I've learned about it over the years.
"Did Elijah ever go to heaven? He went to the place Jesus and the thief went after the crucifixion., Where all men are judged according to their acts."
Is that heaven? Answer directly.
"I think you want to believe."
You wish that I want to believe; it probably makes you feel better about believing despite, e.g., the many problems in the Bible.
@ProfMTH There are no problems in the bible. It's actually translated nearly 100 percent throughout the languages. The small portion that's mistranslated doesn't effect the faith. For instance in the ten commandments "kill" is mistranslated from "do no murder" clearly God has no problem justifying reasonable judgement. Jesus came to keep men away from death. You must read the bible as God intended it. B.I.B.L.E basic information before leaving earth. :) I can't change a mind only inform it.
If by "no problems in the Bible" you mean the Bible is inerrant, that's just plainly wrong--an article of faith that has no correspondence with facts.
@countalucard82 "You must read the bible as God intended it."
I thought people read the bible to learn what God intended? If one is to read the bible as God intended, doesn't that mean anyone who attempts to read the bible needs to already know whats in it?
Perhaps you should throw "informing" out in the same pile you put "changing". When the fantasy wears off, there will be plenty of room for anything else you want to toss out there, too.
Hey "little atheist!" Consider: "Harold flew to New York."Wait a second, are you sure? I thought pilots were only ones who could fly a plane... is Harold a pilot? No: he he bought a first class ticket and the pilot flew him to New York. Jesus was saying that of all humans, only He had the ability to ascend. We can't get in on our own effort and I believe its due to the fact that sin cannot be in the presence of God. Some believe that "purgeatory" cleans the soul before entrance into Heaven.
@chapmaned Ur gettin PWNED! A god that is absolute truth shouldn't have to be rationalized ad nauseum just so it makes sense. @ ProfMTH...the consistent holy spirit argument towards christians..well played.
Elijah did not ascended into heaven in a bodily form. Jesus did, and angels told the apostles that Jesus will return in like manner. Therefore, Elijah did not "ascend" up to heaven. His spirit did, but all spirits do when their bodies die. Elijah didn't die, he was translated. Elijah disappeared, poof. It's not the same as Jesus ascending, descending.
@chapmaned "Elijah did not ascended into heaven in a bodily form."
What is the biblical basis for that claim? Where does the Bible say Elijah lost his body before or on the way up to heaven? And why is your explanation of this discrepancy different from the explanations offered below by so many of your fellow Christians? Aren't you all led by the same Holy Spirit who/that inspired these texts?
@ProfMTH 1 Cor. 15 Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, for starters. Second, his mantle fell from him. We shall not all die but be changed (in regards to the rapture). Just like ENOCH, he was translated. We believe that Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses in the book of revelation, as Hebrews 9:27 states that it is appointed unto men once to die. The didn't die, but were translated.
@chapmaned "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, for starters."
Did Jesus go into heaven with a body of flesh?
"his mantle fell from him"
So? How does that prove he didn't have a body?
Cite one passage in the Bible that actually says Elijah didn't have a body when he went into heaven. Just one.
And, again, why are Christians offering all these contradictory explanations of this? Aren't you all led by the same Holy Spirit who/that inspired these texts?
@ProfMTH I can tell you have not studied 1 Cor. Chapter 15 discussing the difference between natural dirt bodies and spiritual bodies. A Spiritual body is a resurrected body. Blood keeps a natural body alive, for without it, we die. A spiritual body (resurrected one) has no blood. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God means (DIRT BODY), and spiritual bodies have no blood. Elijah did not resurrect from the dead, either, therefore he has no body at all.
@chapmaned That is the most crackpot explanation I have ever heard. By definition a resurrected body has been brought back to life. To be alive you must have blood pumping through your body, unless you claim that Jesus was the undead.
I see others have attempted to explain away the problem, by claiming that there is a difference between 'heaven' and 'heavens'. I would say, that the difference is rather in the verbs used (in greek NT and LXX since I don't have access to hebrew lexical sources.) In Jesus discourse with Nicodemos, he says no-one has ascended to heaven, literally gone up, and it is an active verb, meaning "by his own power" Whereas Elijah was 'taken up', which in the Greek is a passive verb. What do you think?
@psevdhome That's already been covered in this comments section. But I continue to be fascinated by the variety of explanations that Christians have proffered for this. It continues to fascinate me that believers don't see these conflicting explanations as prima facie evidence of a problem with the claims of their faith, e.g., that they are being led and taught by the same Holy Spirit who/that is purported to have inspired these scriptures.
@ServeTheWay So, I just want to be sure I'm understanding your position. Do you believe that the way you've interpreted the passage--i.e., that Jesus "is clearly meaning no human has ascended to heaven to know these matters and returned"--is the only correct interpretation?
@ProfMTH Simple. NOBODY previous to Jesus ascended into heaven, as the Blood atonement of Christ is the only means of imputed perfection. Sinless perfection could not be attained under the Levitical Law of the OT. Therefore, Elijah, like the thief on the cross, ascended to Abraham's bosom - a place of righteous abode. Only after Christ's resurrection could anyone enter Heaven. Nobody except Christ "came down out of heaven" (unless you subscribe to Mormonism).
@ProfMTH He went to paradise - not heaven. Context is not your strong point. Any NT student knows that without the imputed righteousness of Christ through his blood sacrafice NOBODY BUT NOBODY goes to heaven. "Unless a man is Born Again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Period.
@ProfMTH The text is not the problem. Your inability to discern the Hebrew usage of "heaven" is the problem. There are six distinct Hebrew words for "heaven." the word used in 2KI 2:11 is not the abode of Jehovah. The word here is "the sky." You also are unscrupulously leading your viewers by showing God welcoming Elijah - which is not in the Bible. But that is your method: confuse and obfuscate.
@ProfMTH The text is not the problem. Your inability to discern the Hebrew usage of "heaven" is the problem. There are six distinct Hebrew words for "heaven." the word used in 2KI 2:11 is shameh, which is not the abode of Jehovah. The word here is "the sky." You also are unscrupulously leading your viewers by showing God welcoming Elijah - which is not in the Bible. But that is your method: confuse and obfuscate.
@TheThumper49 "the word used in 2KI 2:11 is shameh, which is not the abode of Jehovah."
Then how strange it is that the biblical god is calling to Hagar from there in Genesis 21:17, that in Exodus 20:22 Yahweh says that is where he is speaking from, that in Exodus 24:10 that is where Moses and others see God walking, that Deuteronomy 26:15 calls it God's "holy habitation," that Psalm 2:4 says that it is where God "sits," that Psalm 11:4 says it's the location of Yahweh's "throne" and "holy...
(con't) @TheThumper49 "...temple," that Psalm 14:2 says it's the place from which Yahweh looks down on human beings, that Psalm 20:6 says it's the place where God hears the prayers of his devotees, that Psalm 102:19 says it's the location of God's "sanctuary," that Psalm 103:19 says that is where God's throne is, that Psalm 115:3 says it's where God is, that Psalm 123:1 says it's where God "dwells," and ... well, I could go on, but it would merely be cumulative. It is "the abode of Jehovah."
@ProfMTH Of course God speaks and hears from heaven, but nowhere does it say that any OT figure actually saw or fellowshipped with God in heaven. Human flesh cannot look on God's glory and live. Some would say that Enoch went to heaven by God translating him into a glorified body, but the Book of Hebrew would discount that. Only by the Blood of Christ can anyone enter heaven. You seem to not grasp that, but then minutia is your calling.
@TheThumper49 "Of course God speaks and hears from heaven...."
You claimed that the word translated 'heaven' in the passage about where Elijah went is NOT a reference to "the abode of Jehovah." Now that you've been buried in scripture passages that demonstrate that the word IS used in reference to "the abode of Jehovah" you turn on a dime and say, "Of course God speaks and hears from heaven." Wow! I'm guessing that 180 must have made you at least a little dizzy.
(con't) @TheThumper49 "Human flesh cannot look on God's glory and live."
Genesis 32:30 has Jacob say, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved." Exodus 33:11, "Yahweh used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." In any case, you can try to change the subject if you'd like, but the fact remains that the Bible says Elijah went to heaven, "the abode of Jehovah."
@ProfMTH So? There is only one Truth. There are thousands of belief systems and they are all in error. Jesus said He is the only way to heaven. Reject that at your own peril.
@ProfMTH I was not referring to that verse, just the fact that God speaks to believers from heaven. The Elijah verse means "the sky." He was on his way to paradise - not heaven. You are a lightweight now aren't you?
I've already demonstrated that it's the very same word used in the Bible to identify the place where Yahweh's throne is located, where Yahweh's sanctuary is located, the place that Deuteronomy 26:15 calls God's "holy habitation." They believed that their god lived "up there." And that's where Elijah was taken. Once again, your argument is with what the Bible actually says--as opposed to what you wish it said.
There's a distinction btwn "the heaven" and "the heavens": in the Septuagint (LXX) which the NT writers used, Elijah ascends to "the heavens", which means the sky and (often) everything beyond including the angelic realm. The NT writers use it the same way. But when the NT writers say "the heaven" they were using a common Cent.1 Jewish circumlocution for God Himself and His unmediated presence. In John3 Christ says "the heaven". Sadly English translations usually render both simply as "heaven".
@nothingmemorable You've made a creative attempt here. However, the Septuagint translator(s) was/were merely translating the Hebrew word, which is plural and, as I've shown repeatedly in this comments section when some version of this claim has been made, that Hebrew word is continually used throughout the Jewish Bible to identify the place where Yahweh lives.
@ServeTheWay Ah, so if we add the words "at that time" to the story, it makes sense. Funny how it so often comes down to adding to or subtracting from the Bible in order for it to make sense. John 3:13 has Jesus speak plainly, without qualification: "No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."
Christ makes his point in John 3.5 - which Elijah supports by his ascension - that "Except a man be born of water AND [again] of SPIRIT he cannot enter into the kingdom".
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is BORN of the SPIRIT is SPIRIT"
In John 3:13, Christ wasn't speaking of himself but of ones born of SPIRIT; that they are from heaven, and only they can return...even a seed of Adam.
So by Christ's description, was Elijah born of Spirt?
Part 2: In fact go to 2 Chronicles 21:12 where Elijah writes a letter to King Jehoram 20 years after the ascension in a whirlwind ! It also shows that Elijah was familiar with contemporary events of the Israelite kingdom and therefore must have lived somewhere in Israel or Judah.
@ors712 "The belief that Elijah actually ascended into heaven alive didnt develop until the intertestamental period after the babylonian captivity."
What's the basis for that claim? The text of the passage discussed here says he was taken to heaven.
"verses 15-17 , fifty men went searching for Elijah. Now what would be the point of searching for a man on the ground and through the hills if he was carried up into the heavely realm?"
Are you serious? They didn't know what had happened.
(con't) @ors712 "These men must have believed that Elijah was still on earth."
No surprise since magical chariots usually don't appear to carry people to heaven. The New Testament tells us that, e.g., Mary Magdalene feared that Jesus' body had been moved or stolen when she couldn't find it in its tomb. Shall we glean from this that Jesus didn't really rise from the dead?
"Elijah writes a letter to King Jehoram 20 years after the ascension in a whirlwind"
@ProfMTH Evidence, Antiquities of Josephus number 9 chapter 2, go read it . As for the heavens. Go read Genesis 11:4 about building a tower to the heavens. (Temples built on flat plains appeared to reach the sky from far distances). So tell me, do you believe that they actually built a tower which penetrated the cosmos? Elijah was a prophet of fire who when departed from Elisha would have the appearance of him on the horizon. this explains why the men searched for him on the ground. nice try
@ors712 "Evidence, Antiquities of Josephus number 9 chapter 2, go read it."
Just read it. It says nothing, NOT A WORD, that even remotely resembles your claim, i.e., "The belief that Elijah actually ascended into heaven alive didnt develop until the intertestamental period after the babylonian captivity." Don't waste my time with bullshit.
"do you believe that they actually built a tower which penetrated the cosmos?"
I don't, but Yahweh was shitting in his heavenly pants about...
@ProfMTH It gives evidence that noone knew what happened to Elijah that alone destroys your argument. Explain Chronicles for me please which i mentioned in Part 2
@ors712 " It gives evidence that noone knew what happened to Elijah...."
But that wasn't your claim. Rather, your claim was: "The belief that Elijah actually ascended into heaven alive didnt develop until the intertestamental period after the babylonian captivity." I asked for evidence of that. Do you have any? I'm sure you don't, but charity dictates giving the beneift of the doubt at least once more.
As for no one knowing what happened to Elijah, your Bible tells us: he was...
@ProfMTH Hey randomly you forgot the other incident that this happened, with Enoch inside of Genesis. Also much of the bible is figurative language, I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm just saying that you aren't necessarily right. As you are an expert on christianity, I suppose you've heard of lingual theology. It suggest that events in the Bible are not actually exact, but instead give us a base of experience, which we all can relate faith to. Once again your probably right
@ThePoliticist I have to ask about your comment. The last part reads
"but instead give us a base of experience, which we all can relate faith to."
I'm curious just how many people can "relate" with seeing a fiery/golden chariot drawn by flying horses, carrying someone off, into the sky? I personally would crap my pants, have doubts that it ever even happened the rest of my life, and would probably put away by men in white jackets, just for the mention.
I can't relate to it. However you read the last line, not the whole thing. I said it gives us figurative language. Just like Harry Potter gives millions of people a common experience, the bible does as well. Religion is not the same as God, however it does provide a common narrative for their faith. Thus even if the stories are incorrect it is going to give people a way to relate to each other through bizarre events. Belief does not necessarily mean belief it is true.
@ThePoliticist I Quoted the last line, to save space. I read the entire post. You have totally confused me now.You are saying that this is written as "lingual theology", an Analogy, or maybe a Metaphor? So that others can relate to it. Then say, quote: " I can't relate to it." How is this helpful?
Never mind, I was just curious. I do understand relating many things in the bible, with Harry Potter. That does make sense.
Part 1: As for this argument , The belief that Elijah actually ascended into heaven alive didnt develop until the intertestamental period after the babylonian captivity. if you continue to read verses 15-17 , fifty men went searching for Elijah. Now what would be the point of searching for a man on the ground and through the hills if he was carried up into the heavely realm?? These men must have believed that Elijah was still on earth.
maybe Elijah has the Holy Spirit of YHWH which comes from Heaven. so he went to Heavens from where he had come. in the sense u born as a Son of YHWH when His Spirits fills u.
Hi, I've just watched the video and have missed the debate so far but anyway: the context of Jesus conversation concerns a distinction between heavenly things being harder to understand than earthly things. Elijah's ascension is an earthly ascension into heaven. Jesus ascension is more complicated and I imagine more intimate with God (probably because Jesus is the creator).
@HugeShoeBox That's just a rationalization for an obvious textual contradiction. You're just making assumptions outside of the bounds of the plain text.
People who think the Bible is one whole story that blends together fail to take into account the fact that it took 300 years for the Early Church to put the biblical canon of the Bible together, nor that there were many disputes about what was canon and what wasn't, that many books were excluded from the final list and there's confusion about alterations at the end of the Gospel of Mark and disputes about the canonicity of many verses to this day. The inerrant Word of God? Put together by man.
It's funny to see theists make up excuses for the fact that people in those days actually believed the sky and heaven were the exact same thing. Just like they believed Zeus and the rest of the Pantheon lived on the top of mount Olympus, they believed Yahwe lived in the clouds. If not, why did they believe the Tower of Bable could ever reach it?
@viridismonasteriense "It's funny to see theists make up excuses for the fact that people in those days actually believed the sky and heaven were the exact same thing."
@ProfMTH Let's extend that metaphor a little further. They believed that HEaven was in the sky, and viola angels have bird wings and sing songs and play trumpets etc. to herald god. Hmm, what else has bird wings and sings? Oh, yeah BIRDS. Where does one most often see birds? The SKY! I think were on to something here =P
There is a simple explanation for this. The fiery chariot did not take Elijah to THE Heaven, but heaven as in going up into the sky. The chariot must have taken Elijah someplace else, because some time later Elijah writes a letter to a man in 2 Chronicles 21:12 telling him that his butt's gonna rot out. lol
@ProfMTH If you read the text with other text in mind it makes sense. You're cutting off this particular scripture from the rest, purposely avoiding making any connections. You're assuming he went into the heaven in order to create a contradiction. The same word (shâmayim) is used for the sky.
@jedicharls " If you read the text with other text in mind it makes sense."
Ah, so if I go beyond the story as it's told here and insert into it things from other texts by other authors, *then* it will all harmonize? Yeah, that's called rewriting the story. I know it's a favorite tactic of apologists--especially apologists for inerrancy--but I'm not interested in rewriting the story, I'm interested in what the story says.
@ProfMTH Ah, ok so you start from the opposite end of the spectrum as me and assume the Bible is just a bunch of random flawed books that don't belong together. Yes I believe that it's all one story that blends together. I believe this because if AT LEAST the original text was not inherent then my beliefs ARE pointless.
@jedicharls " Yes I believe that it's all one story that blends together."
No doubt you do. And despite the fact that the texts contradict and differ from one another in many, many ways, you consider it part of your duty to insist that they harmonize. It is precisely that sort of belief that the "Brief Bible Blunders" series is aimed at.
I can hear it now...Christian apologist says, "We all start in Heaven as tiny little souls that descend to Earth and attach themselves to that single cell that results from the union of sperm and egg. So unfortunately, Jesus was being totally redundant when he said that. He must have blanked on that piece of common knowledge because Mary hit his head on the manger when she laid him in it. Come on atheists, is that all you've got?"
ChipArgyle 1 week ago
Ha! That's funny. Now let's find out how the apologists rationalize that one!
Did you take it out of context?
Was it a translation error?
Do you have to read the Bible in its original Hebrew (OT) or Greek (NT) to get the "true meaning"?
Is there an arcane passage later on in the Bible that nullifies it because one of the later authors found the error and fixed the boo boo?
Chime in kids, time's a wasting!
ChipArgyle 2 weeks ago
The music is really what does it.
jordanowen42 3 weeks ago
the word in Hebrew is PLURAL and does not refer to heavens. it refers to realms. Elijah is in our physical universe. God is in the highest of all realms, but He is also in all realms. no one has ascended to all the realms, and no one has seen the Father who is in the seventh and last realm.
carlsonap16 2 months ago
@carlsonap16 Elijah is in our physical universe? As in just chillin' out in spce somewhere? You must be high.
1Lucretian1 1 month ago
@1Lucretian1 surely you are not so ignorant as to think that there is only one planet with life on it.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 Ahh, I see. An interstellar magic chariot took Elijah to an exoplanet in another star system. Are magic chariots permitted FTL travel? If not, it's rather limiting of his possible destinations in the intervening 2500 years. Undoubtedly, however, your interpretation is correct- despite the fact that the goat herders who wrote these stories believed the world was flat, that Yahweh lived in the sky, and that outer space was full of water.
1Lucretian1 1 month ago
no i dont believe in magic or in miracles. i only believe in the laws of nature. and you are ignorant of the facts: first of all your knowledge of the universe is dependent on fools who blindly followed their teachers without doing the scientific themselves. whether its blind faith in religion or science, blind faith is evil and the cause of all this damned evil in the world. and nowhere did they believe the earth was flat; even most educated atheists would admit i am right no this.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 and they didn't believe He lives in the sky. they believed He filled all places with His Spirit. as to the water in out space, they did not believe space was full of water, only that it had a small amount of water in between the first sphere and the second sphere.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 many people believed the world was flat but it was not a christian teaching. The Greeks figured out it must be round.
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 i agree it was not a christian teaching and i dont teach the earth is flat.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 okay, but surely you realize that the whole bible must be taken with a pinch of salt. the scientific understanding of the people who wrote it was next to none. Just because the bible doesn't say "the world is flat" or "space is filled with water" does not mean that the people of the time did not think that. If your a modern day christian you must either live in denial or accept the bible is a metaphor.
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 nope. almost no one in the ancient past believed the world was flat even educated atheists acknowledge this. as to space being filled with water, everyone knew space was huge, and no one believed space was filled with water in a way you are suggesting it. as to your claim at the end; both are wrong. i believe the bible is literal, but i reject anything that is proven to be illogical. currently the evidence to me supports the bible, but if you have scientific evidence lets see it.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 most people of the time had their own opinion on weather the world was flat or not or simply did not care. there was no scientific consensus at the time so the argument is pretty void. if you are asking for evidence that disproves God then i am afraid it is impossible to disprove such a thing just like i cant be sure i'm not in the matrix at the moment. If you are truly follow the scientific method then you would arrive to the conclusion that the bible is not the literal word of God
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 i'm asking for evidence for evolution not about God
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 okay, i guess this was from earlier comments. I haven't read past the first page. there are a number of papers on the subject all peer reviewed and accepted. Just google "observer instances of speciation" and its the first link. that is very strong evidence of evolution.
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 almost everyone i have asked this question to has referred me to the "experts" rather than gave me a list of reasons of proof themselves. i think one should be able to defend their beliefs with their own words if they indeed have been convinced. i dont accept an expert's claims as proof, but i do accept a claim from anyone be they expert or not as long as there is the logic to back it up. i'll look into the link. in the meantime, i suggest you make sure what you believe has proof =)
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 well, what you are saying seam a little illogical to me. if i were to prove everything i was told i would have to reinvent the wheel as well as a lot of other things. this said you would have to take somebodies word. Can you give me a well thought reason why i would trust the scripture of a bible over the scripture of several peer reviewed papers from the top minds of out time?
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 Scripture claiming something is not a scientific argument,its a philosophical argument.in re to science,im looking for the scientific proof one way or the other, regardless of the Scriptures.scientifically,neither should be your source; neither bible or peer reviews.Bible might accurately tell us what is true, but the scientific proof is not the Bible,but the science that backs it up. i'm looking for wahtever the truth is, but i wan to see the scientific backing,& not academic backing.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 maybe it seems illogical to you, but to me, it does not; i seek to prove all things, including science and other things. i trust no man because i have experienced enough idiocy and willfull blindness and deception. i can not in good conscious trust really anything someone says as being true.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 peer reviewed papers that claim a truth such as the process of evolution that get accepted are not mere speculation. It is hard evidence that has come to pass through the scientific method. You will not find a more trustworthy source of information. The bible was not designed to be a source of scientific information, it was meant to guide humanity. I would say you would be hard pressed to find a worse source of information.
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 just because its not mere speculation does not make it scientific. it also has to be proven that the scientific method is even the method that should be the basis of determining what is scientifically true, which i challenge. the scientific method itself is not unscientific, but it does not adequately in my rendering capture the full scientific truth. in other words, without a small dosage of philosophy at least, there is no science.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@jony1710 ignore the bible, and lets focus on the science.do you really think scientists are reliable when they market drugs after testing them for a few years only and not long term testing?
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 scientists on pay rolls are not the same thing as researchers.
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 that is true, but i would suggest the majority of what is researched makes many assumption in which not every variale is evaluated because they presuupose its not worthy to study the alternative possibilities. sometimes its okay because they conclude correctly. other times however thei conclusions are way off because it did not fairly evaluate all the variables but ignored several important ones on the bias that they were not important enough to study.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 they cant account for every variable and if they come to wrong conclusion, another will prove them wrong. this is the only way it can work without being omniscient.
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 i understand and agree only in some ways with what you are saying. you cant check every example. however, i believe the general principles you can exhaustively determine. but also keep in mind with a community, we can help each other figure out the truth. it would just be nice if people didn't make assumptions that weren't warranted. most people accept what their textbooks or teachers told them is the truth. as for me, i will accept something if someone can prove it to me thru science.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 I accept what my teachers told me because it gets me the grades. i know its dummed down.this is because not everybody can have a complete understanding of things like particle physics so the classical model is taught in school. I am 100% sure that the process of evolution is possible but it is impossible to prove that it is the cause for the diversification of life on earth as we do not have time machines. cont..
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 i was referring more to the pursuit of knowledge rather than academic endeavors. obviously if you are trying to get a grade from someone then you have to play your game.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 if you are under the impression that any academical thinks that what is written in papers/text books is law then you are very wrong. Just look at the faster than light neutrinos. these people have found evidence that contradicts the theory and have asked people to poke holes in there experiment but are still considering the alternate hypothesis that they are FTL. Some physicists are even theistic albeit not religious. a prime example was Eisenstein.
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 sure there are ones who do ? some things, but they often never question the foundation.they are a few oddballs here and there who dance with these kinds of ideas.but there is usually an unspoken rule of certain topics you are not to question because to do so would be absurd "obviously".also mainstream science silences the voice of these few loners.it is difficult to change the perception of the world especially when money and tradition is involved.tradition is powerful and controlling.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@jony1710 i'll say one thing: if creationism did not have scientific support, then it would be wrong. i would encourage all interpretations to be studied as long as they are approached from a scientific perspective. many have tried to argue that creationism should be taught in the classroom. that should only be the cass if they can present actual scientific theories and not mindless quotations from Scripture. a science class is intended for science and not theology.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 i agree, creationism has its place in explaining the world to people who have little interest in the truth. Just because scientists don't have a definite answer does not mean that creationism should be taught in its place. Creationism just does not fit the evidence.
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 there are some creationists that do attempt to prove creationism with science, and they make some good arguments in some areas, but in other areas, whent hey don't have an answer for the science, they immediately revert to unquestioning acceptance of a scriptural claim. i believe we should all be humble enough and be willing to say we don't know when someone asks us a question we can't answer. and then, after that we should try and find an answer
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 What i am trying to say is you asking for somebody to prove something is an impossible request.
jony1710 1 month ago
@jony1710 i don't think its an impossible request,but you have stated your honest beliefs so i thank you for expressing yourself.i intend to proe what the truthi s on the matter in the future.whether it be evolution or creationism.whatever the case,i seek to prove it thru the science.i already have many great theories which are underdeveloped.one ex is why humans have no hair.reason is we wear clothes,& over time,the genetic code responded to our wearing of clothes by coding it into the system.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
GOD: Don't worry, everybody forgets things around here.
DarklightZER0 2 months ago
ya see elijah descended from heaven first so therefore he could ascend back according to what jesus said so it is very logical
EGMAG 3 months ago
WHAT! the bible contradicting itself... NOOOO.
tumbipanther 3 months ago
Thank you for this vid. Easily one of the first parts of Christianity that I came to question. One idea though: perhaps the chariot took a path around heaven, then descended :)
bebopbountyhead 4 months ago
@BlackMetalPoser The Hebrew word is 'shamayim'. E.g., in Gen 24:7, Abraham calls Yahweh "the god of shamayim." Gen 28:12 says shamayim is where the angels of God are. Deut 4:9 says that Yahweh is the "god in shamayim." Deut 26:15 says shamayim is God's "holy habitation." Ps 2:4 says shamayim is where God sits. Ps 11:4 says shamayim is where Yahweh's throne is. Ps 14:2 says shamayim is where God looks down on humans. Ps 20:6 says shamayim is where Yahweh hears his people & sends them help from.
ProfMTH 4 months ago
(con't) @BlackMetalPoser There are lots more passages like the ones I've quoted. The word is also used to refer to the air, where the birds fly, the firmament, and that sort of thing. Bottom line: the people writing these texts believed that Yahweh lived in the sky.
ProfMTH 4 months ago
"And did those feet in ancient times, walk apon England's mountains green...."
skip8619 5 months ago
I love these videos. Btw, Enoch also ascended into heavan
piggygurl44 5 months ago
@piggygurl44 Thanks. Glad you're enjoying them. And, yes, I know. :-)
ProfMTH 5 months ago
@piggygurl44
no no no no no. the funny part is that this makes jesus' 'miracle' with bringing lazerus back kinda lame. apparently anyone can partake in that old nemesis of christianity called necromancy - even jesus! XD maybe his omitting of elijah in john is to remove the 'oh wait! someone did this already!' part of bringing men back to life?
infernalone666 3 days ago
ProfMTH, you are missing the obvious. Jesus suckled on Mary as baby and seeing (and sucking on) breasts the size of your head can make anybody (or at least any heterosexual male) forget anything. How can you expect him to remember a triviality like Heaven after breasts the size of his head? That is why he forgot about Elijah.
ORKEN6 5 months ago
tektonics (dot) org/af/firstascent.html
That site explains why its not a contradiction. The word 'heaven' doesn't always mean the same thing in Scripture...especially when you're comparing Old Testament and New Testament verses. You're basically comparing Hebrew and Greek. The Hebrew word is talking about the physical 'heavens' aka the sky. The Greek in the John verse is talking about the actual abode of God.
DreamsofMajesty 6 months ago
@DreamsofMajesty "The Hebrew word is talking about the physical 'heavens' aka the sky."
It's the same Hebrew word used in Ps 2:4 to identify where Yahweh "sits", in Ps 11;4 to identify where Yahweh's "throne" is, in Ps 20:6 to identify the place Yahweh hears the prayers of his devotees, in Ps 53:2 to identify from where God "looks down" on humans, in Ps 57:3 to identify from where Yahweh sends salvation, in Ps 76:8 to identify the place from which Yahweh sends judgment. I could go on.
ProfMTH 6 months ago
@ProfMTH I love how apologists try to reconcile the obvious bullshit in their book. 'Well, see, if we take this translation and the meaning of the word at the time we can make this shit say whatever we want'.
biggingeryeti 5 months ago
@ProfMTH I'm beginning to love you more and more each video! You have great work and you have a great mind.. you also do a very well job at stumping the loony christians that enjoy arguing with their own bible. They know they see the problems but they also know how to fix them because unlike Bronze Age writers we all were educated in literature to proof read and create rough drafts/ final drafts.
HeavyDickSince93 4 months ago
@HeavyDickSince93 "I'm beginning to love you more and more each video! You have great work and you have a great mind"
Thanks a lot! :-)
ProfMTH 4 months ago
@DreamsofMajesty APOLOGIST!
azzy314159 6 months ago
@DreamsofMajesty There may be a real deity but in the Bible they are speaking about a great big entity that lives in the sky above a flat Earth. Questioning this doesn't necessarily go towards Atheism if you are afraid of that but can purify your belief regardless of the destination/ state of your belief in your journey through life.
Obviously Moses went up Mount Sinai for a reason. It's because a mountain was thought to be so high that it could be used as a ladder to get nearer to heaven
hotpants69 5 months ago
If this is true it is another blunder as it states, one of many, because another writer of the NT has Jesus saying that John the Baptist is Elijah when the Hebrew leaders ask Jesus to prove that he fulfills the prophesy (which he fails and is crucified for because as laid out in Isaiah and other books, the Messiah had to follow Elijahs return and kill the Jews enemies with swords and fire from heaven.
Straight from the Bible- proving the Bible wrong, cause those guys were lazy
hotpants69 5 months ago
I just looked this up in my bible and this is all wrong.
IfinduIgetu 6 months ago
@IfinduIgetu "I just looked this up in my bible and this is all wrong."
Care to be specific?
ProfMTH 6 months ago
@IfinduIgetu "I just looked this up in my bible ..."
Not sure what bible you're talking about. I just looked this up in my NIV, New American Standard, King James Study, Living English, and New World Translation Bibles and he's got it right.
CrowsFlyte 6 months ago
@CrowsFlyte I meant his interpretations.
IfinduIgetu 5 months ago
All these claims of "OUT OF CONTEXT!" would be perfectly valid, if only the people making the claims could explain just what parts are being taken out of context and what the 'true context' actually is. But they don't explain, so they continue shouting those 3 words at the top of their lungs and sounding like idiots.
MyNameIsBob212 6 months ago
Another non-contradiction based upon incomplete information. Sheesh. I'm done with this channel.
Ant1Live 7 months ago
@Ant1Live Care to be specific?
ProfMTH 7 months ago
"Blame the translation!" "Heaven has many layers!" "You have to read the book as God intended!". So much rationalizing
hec231 7 months ago
@hec231 It's astounding, isn't it?
ProfMTH 7 months ago
@TheGothicMaria I'm pretty sure they meant that you cant justify mistakes in the bible based on bad translation
Cacmypants 7 months ago
@Cacmypants - Even if the translation was bad, it's still a 2,000 year old book. Times have changed, Bible historically inaccurate and we have more knowledge that they could have imagined. The laws of the bible are pretty cruel and people like to pick and choose what they like and will follow. Example, Sodom and Gommorah. God destroyed a town of beastiality and homosexuals, but failed to do anything when Lot's daughters got him drunk, raped him and had his children. Bible school neglects this.
ksniveegirl 7 months ago
The English translation of 2 Kings 2:11 is the problem. The Hebrew word translated heaven there is the same word used in Genesis 1:6-8 to describe the firmament, the area between the waters on Earth and the water vapor canopy that was originally at the outer edge of our atmosphere. Today we call this the sky, and that’s really where 2 Kings 2:11 says Elijah was taken, up into the sky.
drevildruid 8 months ago
@drevildruid
It's the same word used in Ps 2:4 to identify the place where Yahweh "sits", in Ps 11;4 to identify where Yahweh's "throne" is located, in Ps 20:6 to identify the place Yahweh hears the prayers of his devotees, in Ps 53:2 to identify the place from which the biblical god "looks down" on human beings, in Ps 57:3 to identify the place from which Yahweh sends salvation, in Ps 76:8 to identify the place from which Yahweh sends judgment. I could go on. So Yahweh lives in "the sky"?
ProfMTH 8 months ago
Comment removed
drevildruid 8 months ago
that txt bugged me as its misquoted by some churches so I reread it; Nicodemus was supposed to be a leading teacher but did not believe jesus, so jesus is saying no one has taught the completeness of god but him who is from god.So did Elijah go to heaven? yes! he just never came down To teach.Have there been others? yes, Enoch, Moses even FROM THE GRAVE and 10000 went with jesus see jude 1:14 ,matt 27:52 mark 9:4 jude 1:9 Gen 5:23-24. Thanks for the vid ,it did make me inquire of a bigger answer
onlyhumanme 8 months ago
@onlyhumanme "so jesus is saying no one has taught the completeness of god but him who is from god"
Except that's not what the passage has Jesus saying. I mean, sure, one can simply change the text to make it say whatever one wants and, Voila!, no problems. But that's not an intellectually honest approach to these writings.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH Nicodemus in the beginning thought that he was a teacher 'come from God' but the truth was he was not elijah or any other profit he was the lord god from heaven and the basic things of salvation that he was sharing with nicodemus a supposed leader jews (the supposed chosen ones) he could not understand(the jews thought they needed nothing and were awaiting a glorious king).
Its as it is starting from John 3:1 onward. hope this helps mate.
onlyhumanme 8 months ago
@onlyhumanme
Jeepers, you could of come up with something more plausible than that explanation...
What about something like.. Yes, Elijah did go up to heaven, but only to heaven. Jesus is referring to no one being lifted up to be with the 'presence' of God. i.e being in Heaven and in the presence of God is different.
Even though I'm an atheist, sounds like id be a better Christian than you .
truckcompany 7 months ago
@adammfr It still amazes me. It shouldn't, but it does. :-)
ProfMTH 8 months ago
Comment removed
onlyhumanme 8 months ago
@onlyhumanme "The bible says no one has even ascended or decended FROM THE GRAVE like jesus did."
Actually, that's *not* what the Bible says. None of the relevant passages says a word about "FROM THE GRAVE." Why are you changing the Word of God? According to the Bible, he takes an extremely dim view of that.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
Comment removed
onlyhumanme 8 months ago
Jesus was clearly talking about flesh and blood. Human beings have to transform before entering heaven. Luke 20:34-:36 explains that in the resurrection humans will be equal to the angels. Just because you've lost faith don't steal it from others. For someone who doesn't trust the bible you sure spend a lot of time on it.
countalucard82 8 months ago
@countalucard82 "Human beings have to transform before entering heaven."
Did Elijah go to heaven as the Bible says he did?
"Just because you've lost faith don't steal it from others."
If you're concerned that the videos will hurt your faith, don't watch them.
"For someone who doesn't trust the Bible you sure spend a lot of time on it."
Even if that were true, so what? Christians frequently say this as if it means something, but they're never able to identify what it means.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH What it means is obviously it's of interest to you. Did Elijah ever go to heaven? He went to the place Jesus and the thief went after the crucifixion., Where all men are judged according to their acts..
There are multiple layers to heaven, but it is just that. Only the weak minded person loses faith to anothers beliefs. You are entitled to your opinion, but as long as you make videos you'll get a response. If you don't believe in the bible don't read it. I think you want to believe.
countalucard82 8 months ago
@ProfMTH BTW. I think you are talented and entertaining. My feedback doesn't discredit that. I will however, enlighten Christians and teach them through proof in the gospel. These aren't truly contradictions they just need to be explored.
countalucard82 8 months ago
@countalucard82 "it's of interest to you."
The Bible interests me a lot & I enjoy sharing what I've learned about it over the years.
"Did Elijah ever go to heaven? He went to the place Jesus and the thief went after the crucifixion., Where all men are judged according to their acts."
Is that heaven? Answer directly.
"I think you want to believe."
You wish that I want to believe; it probably makes you feel better about believing despite, e.g., the many problems in the Bible.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH There are no problems in the bible. It's actually translated nearly 100 percent throughout the languages. The small portion that's mistranslated doesn't effect the faith. For instance in the ten commandments "kill" is mistranslated from "do no murder" clearly God has no problem justifying reasonable judgement. Jesus came to keep men away from death. You must read the bible as God intended it. B.I.B.L.E basic information before leaving earth. :) I can't change a mind only inform it.
countalucard82 8 months ago
@countalucard82 "There are no problems in the bible."
If by "no problems in the Bible" you mean the Bible is inerrant, that's just plainly wrong--an article of faith that has no correspondence with facts.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@countalucard82 "You must read the bible as God intended it."
I thought people read the bible to learn what God intended? If one is to read the bible as God intended, doesn't that mean anyone who attempts to read the bible needs to already know whats in it?
Perhaps you should throw "informing" out in the same pile you put "changing". When the fantasy wears off, there will be plenty of room for anything else you want to toss out there, too.
MrPolysyllabic 8 months ago
Hey "little atheist!" Consider: "Harold flew to New York."Wait a second, are you sure? I thought pilots were only ones who could fly a plane... is Harold a pilot? No: he he bought a first class ticket and the pilot flew him to New York. Jesus was saying that of all humans, only He had the ability to ascend. We can't get in on our own effort and I believe its due to the fact that sin cannot be in the presence of God. Some believe that "purgeatory" cleans the soul before entrance into Heaven.
aggienostic 8 months ago
@aggienostic "Jesus was saying that of all humans, only He had the ability to ascend."
Already covered many times in this comments section. Doesn't solve the problem.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
Lol
The boy wasn't dead. Elijah slipped some rape drug into his soda and claimed to be a healer :P
hallelujaable 9 months ago
@chapmaned Ur gettin PWNED! A god that is absolute truth shouldn't have to be rationalized ad nauseum just so it makes sense. @ ProfMTH...the consistent holy spirit argument towards christians..well played.
genext7 9 months ago
@genext7 "@ ProfMTH...the consistent holy spirit argument towards christians..well played."
Thanks.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
who did that version of 'up,up and away' you used for the video?
harrychestwigg 9 months ago
@harrychestwigg I don't remember, I'm afraid. I'll have to find it on my computer.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
Elijah did not ascended into heaven in a bodily form. Jesus did, and angels told the apostles that Jesus will return in like manner. Therefore, Elijah did not "ascend" up to heaven. His spirit did, but all spirits do when their bodies die. Elijah didn't die, he was translated. Elijah disappeared, poof. It's not the same as Jesus ascending, descending.
chapmaned 9 months ago
@chapmaned "Elijah did not ascended into heaven in a bodily form."
What is the biblical basis for that claim? Where does the Bible say Elijah lost his body before or on the way up to heaven? And why is your explanation of this discrepancy different from the explanations offered below by so many of your fellow Christians? Aren't you all led by the same Holy Spirit who/that inspired these texts?
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH 1 Cor. 15 Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, for starters. Second, his mantle fell from him. We shall not all die but be changed (in regards to the rapture). Just like ENOCH, he was translated. We believe that Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses in the book of revelation, as Hebrews 9:27 states that it is appointed unto men once to die. The didn't die, but were translated.
chapmaned 9 months ago
@chapmaned "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, for starters."
Did Jesus go into heaven with a body of flesh?
"his mantle fell from him"
So? How does that prove he didn't have a body?
Cite one passage in the Bible that actually says Elijah didn't have a body when he went into heaven. Just one.
And, again, why are Christians offering all these contradictory explanations of this? Aren't you all led by the same Holy Spirit who/that inspired these texts?
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH I can tell you have not studied 1 Cor. Chapter 15 discussing the difference between natural dirt bodies and spiritual bodies. A Spiritual body is a resurrected body. Blood keeps a natural body alive, for without it, we die. A spiritual body (resurrected one) has no blood. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God means (DIRT BODY), and spiritual bodies have no blood. Elijah did not resurrect from the dead, either, therefore he has no body at all.
chapmaned 9 months ago
@chapmaned That is the most crackpot explanation I have ever heard. By definition a resurrected body has been brought back to life. To be alive you must have blood pumping through your body, unless you claim that Jesus was the undead.
mattrR678 9 months ago
I see others have attempted to explain away the problem, by claiming that there is a difference between 'heaven' and 'heavens'. I would say, that the difference is rather in the verbs used (in greek NT and LXX since I don't have access to hebrew lexical sources.) In Jesus discourse with Nicodemos, he says no-one has ascended to heaven, literally gone up, and it is an active verb, meaning "by his own power" Whereas Elijah was 'taken up', which in the Greek is a passive verb. What do you think?
psevdhome 9 months ago
@psevdhome That's already been covered in this comments section. But I continue to be fascinated by the variety of explanations that Christians have proffered for this. It continues to fascinate me that believers don't see these conflicting explanations as prima facie evidence of a problem with the claims of their faith, e.g., that they are being led and taught by the same Holy Spirit who/that is purported to have inspired these scriptures.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
seems that Jesus was really forgetful.HE forgot to relieve mankind from superstition while he was visiting Earth
Samura1gamer 9 months ago
@ServeTheWay So, I just want to be sure I'm understanding your position. Do you believe that the way you've interpreted the passage--i.e., that Jesus "is clearly meaning no human has ascended to heaven to know these matters and returned"--is the only correct interpretation?
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH Simple. NOBODY previous to Jesus ascended into heaven, as the Blood atonement of Christ is the only means of imputed perfection. Sinless perfection could not be attained under the Levitical Law of the OT. Therefore, Elijah, like the thief on the cross, ascended to Abraham's bosom - a place of righteous abode. Only after Christ's resurrection could anyone enter Heaven. Nobody except Christ "came down out of heaven" (unless you subscribe to Mormonism).
TheThumper49 10 months ago
@TheThumper49 "Simple. NOBODY previous to Jesus ascended into heaven...."
Except the Jewish scriptures tell us that Elijah *did* go to heaven.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH He went to paradise - not heaven. Context is not your strong point. Any NT student knows that without the imputed righteousness of Christ through his blood sacrafice NOBODY BUT NOBODY goes to heaven. "Unless a man is Born Again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Period.
TheThumper49 10 months ago
@TheThumper49 "He went to paradise - not heaven."
That's not what the Bible says. The Bible says he went to heaven. Your argument is with the text.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH The text is not the problem. Your inability to discern the Hebrew usage of "heaven" is the problem. There are six distinct Hebrew words for "heaven." the word used in 2KI 2:11 is not the abode of Jehovah. The word here is "the sky." You also are unscrupulously leading your viewers by showing God welcoming Elijah - which is not in the Bible. But that is your method: confuse and obfuscate.
TheThumper49 10 months ago
@ProfMTH The text is not the problem. Your inability to discern the Hebrew usage of "heaven" is the problem. There are six distinct Hebrew words for "heaven." the word used in 2KI 2:11 is shameh, which is not the abode of Jehovah. The word here is "the sky." You also are unscrupulously leading your viewers by showing God welcoming Elijah - which is not in the Bible. But that is your method: confuse and obfuscate.
TheThumper49 10 months ago
@TheThumper49 "the word used in 2KI 2:11 is shameh, which is not the abode of Jehovah."
Then how strange it is that the biblical god is calling to Hagar from there in Genesis 21:17, that in Exodus 20:22 Yahweh says that is where he is speaking from, that in Exodus 24:10 that is where Moses and others see God walking, that Deuteronomy 26:15 calls it God's "holy habitation," that Psalm 2:4 says that it is where God "sits," that Psalm 11:4 says it's the location of Yahweh's "throne" and "holy...
ProfMTH 10 months ago
(con't) @TheThumper49 "...temple," that Psalm 14:2 says it's the place from which Yahweh looks down on human beings, that Psalm 20:6 says it's the place where God hears the prayers of his devotees, that Psalm 102:19 says it's the location of God's "sanctuary," that Psalm 103:19 says that is where God's throne is, that Psalm 115:3 says it's where God is, that Psalm 123:1 says it's where God "dwells," and ... well, I could go on, but it would merely be cumulative. It is "the abode of Jehovah."
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH Of course God speaks and hears from heaven, but nowhere does it say that any OT figure actually saw or fellowshipped with God in heaven. Human flesh cannot look on God's glory and live. Some would say that Enoch went to heaven by God translating him into a glorified body, but the Book of Hebrew would discount that. Only by the Blood of Christ can anyone enter heaven. You seem to not grasp that, but then minutia is your calling.
TheThumper49 10 months ago
@TheThumper49 "Of course God speaks and hears from heaven...."
You claimed that the word translated 'heaven' in the passage about where Elijah went is NOT a reference to "the abode of Jehovah." Now that you've been buried in scripture passages that demonstrate that the word IS used in reference to "the abode of Jehovah" you turn on a dime and say, "Of course God speaks and hears from heaven." Wow! I'm guessing that 180 must have made you at least a little dizzy.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
(con't) @TheThumper49 "Human flesh cannot look on God's glory and live."
Genesis 32:30 has Jacob say, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved." Exodus 33:11, "Yahweh used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." In any case, you can try to change the subject if you'd like, but the fact remains that the Bible says Elijah went to heaven, "the abode of Jehovah."
ProfMTH 10 months ago
(con't) @TheThumper49 "Only by the Blood of Christ can anyone enter heaven."
That's a Christian belief. The Jewish scriptures--including, without limitation, the story of Elijah--say otherwise.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH So? There is only one Truth. There are thousands of belief systems and they are all in error. Jesus said He is the only way to heaven. Reject that at your own peril.
TheThumper49 10 months ago
@TheThumper49 "Jesus said He is the only way to heaven."
Well, your argument is not with me but with the Jewish scriptures, which claim Elijah was taken to heaven ("the abode of Jehovah") in a chariot.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH I have no argument with the scriptures - never have. That's your weak task. Text taken out of context is pretext. Repeat that 1000 times.
TheThumper49 10 months ago
@ProfMTH I was not referring to that verse, just the fact that God speaks to believers from heaven. The Elijah verse means "the sky." He was on his way to paradise - not heaven. You are a lightweight now aren't you?
TheThumper49 10 months ago
@TheThumper49 "The Elijah verse means "the sky.""
I've already demonstrated that it's the very same word used in the Bible to identify the place where Yahweh's throne is located, where Yahweh's sanctuary is located, the place that Deuteronomy 26:15 calls God's "holy habitation." They believed that their god lived "up there." And that's where Elijah was taken. Once again, your argument is with what the Bible actually says--as opposed to what you wish it said.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
There's a distinction btwn "the heaven" and "the heavens": in the Septuagint (LXX) which the NT writers used, Elijah ascends to "the heavens", which means the sky and (often) everything beyond including the angelic realm. The NT writers use it the same way. But when the NT writers say "the heaven" they were using a common Cent.1 Jewish circumlocution for God Himself and His unmediated presence. In John3 Christ says "the heaven". Sadly English translations usually render both simply as "heaven".
nothingmemorable 9 months ago
@nothingmemorable Care to identify the (allegedly) different words?
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH
I did. The difference is singular vs. plural. In New Testament Greek:
ho ouranos/ton ouranon/tou ouranou/tOi ouranOi == "the heaven" meaning God/His unmediated presence
oi ouranoi/tous ouranous/tOn ouranOn/tois ouranois == "the heavens" meaning the sky and/or celestial/angelic realm.
* o=omicron; O=omega
nothingmemorable 9 months ago
@nothingmemorable You've made a creative attempt here. However, the Septuagint translator(s) was/were merely translating the Hebrew word, which is plural and, as I've shown repeatedly in this comments section when some version of this claim has been made, that Hebrew word is continually used throughout the Jewish Bible to identify the place where Yahweh lives.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ServeTheWay "He is clearly meaning no human has ascended to heaven to know these matters and returned."
Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that's the only possible way to understand this passage correctly?
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ServeTheWay Ah, so if we add the words "at that time" to the story, it makes sense. Funny how it so often comes down to adding to or subtracting from the Bible in order for it to make sense. John 3:13 has Jesus speak plainly, without qualification: "No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."
ProfMTH 10 months ago
This prophet was handy if you needed a lighter.
InternetDarkLord 10 months ago
this all makes complete sense if you dont really think about it
adzug 10 months ago
You forgot Enoch, as well.
ThePoliticist 1 year ago
@ThePoliticist "You forgot Enoch"
No, I didn't forget him.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
Christ makes his point in John 3.5 - which Elijah supports by his ascension - that "Except a man be born of water AND [again] of SPIRIT he cannot enter into the kingdom".
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is BORN of the SPIRIT is SPIRIT"
In John 3:13, Christ wasn't speaking of himself but of ones born of SPIRIT; that they are from heaven, and only they can return...even a seed of Adam.
So by Christ's description, was Elijah born of Spirt?
Absolutely!
jpmay26 1 year ago
Part 2: In fact go to 2 Chronicles 21:12 where Elijah writes a letter to King Jehoram 20 years after the ascension in a whirlwind ! It also shows that Elijah was familiar with contemporary events of the Israelite kingdom and therefore must have lived somewhere in Israel or Judah.
ors712 1 year ago
@ors712 "The belief that Elijah actually ascended into heaven alive didnt develop until the intertestamental period after the babylonian captivity."
What's the basis for that claim? The text of the passage discussed here says he was taken to heaven.
"verses 15-17 , fifty men went searching for Elijah. Now what would be the point of searching for a man on the ground and through the hills if he was carried up into the heavely realm?"
Are you serious? They didn't know what had happened.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @ors712 "These men must have believed that Elijah was still on earth."
No surprise since magical chariots usually don't appear to carry people to heaven. The New Testament tells us that, e.g., Mary Magdalene feared that Jesus' body had been moved or stolen when she couldn't find it in its tomb. Shall we glean from this that Jesus didn't really rise from the dead?
"Elijah writes a letter to King Jehoram 20 years after the ascension in a whirlwind"
The Bible contradicts itself.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Evidence, Antiquities of Josephus number 9 chapter 2, go read it . As for the heavens. Go read Genesis 11:4 about building a tower to the heavens. (Temples built on flat plains appeared to reach the sky from far distances). So tell me, do you believe that they actually built a tower which penetrated the cosmos? Elijah was a prophet of fire who when departed from Elisha would have the appearance of him on the horizon. this explains why the men searched for him on the ground. nice try
ors712 1 year ago
@ors712 "Evidence, Antiquities of Josephus number 9 chapter 2, go read it."
Just read it. It says nothing, NOT A WORD, that even remotely resembles your claim, i.e., "The belief that Elijah actually ascended into heaven alive didnt develop until the intertestamental period after the babylonian captivity." Don't waste my time with bullshit.
"do you believe that they actually built a tower which penetrated the cosmos?"
I don't, but Yahweh was shitting in his heavenly pants about...
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @ors712 ...their doing so (Genesis 11:5-7).
"nice try"
I wish I could say the same for you.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH It gives evidence that noone knew what happened to Elijah that alone destroys your argument. Explain Chronicles for me please which i mentioned in Part 2
ors712 1 year ago
@ors712 " It gives evidence that noone knew what happened to Elijah...."
But that wasn't your claim. Rather, your claim was: "The belief that Elijah actually ascended into heaven alive didnt develop until the intertestamental period after the babylonian captivity." I asked for evidence of that. Do you have any? I'm sure you don't, but charity dictates giving the beneift of the doubt at least once more.
As for no one knowing what happened to Elijah, your Bible tells us: he was...
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @ors712 ...taken up to Heaven. You don't believe your Bible. That's not my problem; it's yours.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Hey randomly you forgot the other incident that this happened, with Enoch inside of Genesis. Also much of the bible is figurative language, I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm just saying that you aren't necessarily right. As you are an expert on christianity, I suppose you've heard of lingual theology. It suggest that events in the Bible are not actually exact, but instead give us a base of experience, which we all can relate faith to. Once again your probably right
ThePoliticist 1 year ago
@ThePoliticist I have to ask about your comment. The last part reads
"but instead give us a base of experience, which we all can relate faith to."
I'm curious just how many people can "relate" with seeing a fiery/golden chariot drawn by flying horses, carrying someone off, into the sky? I personally would crap my pants, have doubts that it ever even happened the rest of my life, and would probably put away by men in white jackets, just for the mention.
Can you really "relate"?
pumpstations 11 months ago
I can't relate to it. However you read the last line, not the whole thing. I said it gives us figurative language. Just like Harry Potter gives millions of people a common experience, the bible does as well. Religion is not the same as God, however it does provide a common narrative for their faith. Thus even if the stories are incorrect it is going to give people a way to relate to each other through bizarre events. Belief does not necessarily mean belief it is true.
ThePoliticist 11 months ago
@ThePoliticist I Quoted the last line, to save space. I read the entire post. You have totally confused me now.You are saying that this is written as "lingual theology", an Analogy, or maybe a Metaphor? So that others can relate to it. Then say, quote: " I can't relate to it." How is this helpful?
Never mind, I was just curious. I do understand relating many things in the bible, with Harry Potter. That does make sense.
pumpstations 11 months ago
Part 1: As for this argument , The belief that Elijah actually ascended into heaven alive didnt develop until the intertestamental period after the babylonian captivity. if you continue to read verses 15-17 , fifty men went searching for Elijah. Now what would be the point of searching for a man on the ground and through the hills if he was carried up into the heavely realm?? These men must have believed that Elijah was still on earth.
ors712 1 year ago
maybe Elijah has the Holy Spirit of YHWH which comes from Heaven. so he went to Heavens from where he had come. in the sense u born as a Son of YHWH when His Spirits fills u.
yaitsmesuperboomboon 1 year ago
You forgot Enoch.
qmeche123 1 year ago
@qmeche123 "You forgot Enoch."
Forgot?
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Yes, according to bible scholars, he also went up to heaven.
qmeche123 1 year ago
@qmeche123 I know that.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
Furthermore, some interpret Gen 6:24 to suggest Enoch circumvented death and ascended to Heaven as well.
Boy75402 1 year ago
Comment removed
Craydon 1 year ago
loved the end!
killawind1287 1 year ago
Hi, I've just watched the video and have missed the debate so far but anyway: the context of Jesus conversation concerns a distinction between heavenly things being harder to understand than earthly things. Elijah's ascension is an earthly ascension into heaven. Jesus ascension is more complicated and I imagine more intimate with God (probably because Jesus is the creator).
HugeShoeBox 1 year ago
@HugeShoeBox That's just a rationalization for an obvious textual contradiction. You're just making assumptions outside of the bounds of the plain text.
GermanChocolateCake 1 year ago
People who think the Bible is one whole story that blends together fail to take into account the fact that it took 300 years for the Early Church to put the biblical canon of the Bible together, nor that there were many disputes about what was canon and what wasn't, that many books were excluded from the final list and there's confusion about alterations at the end of the Gospel of Mark and disputes about the canonicity of many verses to this day. The inerrant Word of God? Put together by man.
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@viridismonasteriense Thusly making the inerrant word clearly errant, and thus lacking in acceptable validity.
if any of it can be wrong, all of it can be wrong, and thus none of it should be taken as absolute.
GermanChocolateCake 1 year ago
@GermanChocolateCake Exactly.
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
It's funny to see theists make up excuses for the fact that people in those days actually believed the sky and heaven were the exact same thing. Just like they believed Zeus and the rest of the Pantheon lived on the top of mount Olympus, they believed Yahwe lived in the clouds. If not, why did they believe the Tower of Bable could ever reach it?
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@viridismonasteriense "It's funny to see theists make up excuses for the fact that people in those days actually believed the sky and heaven were the exact same thing."
Indeed.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Let's extend that metaphor a little further. They believed that HEaven was in the sky, and viola angels have bird wings and sing songs and play trumpets etc. to herald god. Hmm, what else has bird wings and sings? Oh, yeah BIRDS. Where does one most often see birds? The SKY! I think were on to something here =P
GermanChocolateCake 1 year ago
The chariot didn't make it to heaven. There was a volcanic eruption in Iceland and the chariot was forced to land in Scotland.
outofthegreenmist 1 year ago
@outofthegreenmist lol
ProfMTH 1 year ago
There is a simple explanation for this. The fiery chariot did not take Elijah to THE Heaven, but heaven as in going up into the sky. The chariot must have taken Elijah someplace else, because some time later Elijah writes a letter to a man in 2 Chronicles 21:12 telling him that his butt's gonna rot out. lol
jedicharls 1 year ago
@jedicharls "There is a simple explanation for this. The fiery chariot did not take Elijah to THE Heaven, but heaven as in going up into the sky."
Except that's not what the text says.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH If you read the text with other text in mind it makes sense. You're cutting off this particular scripture from the rest, purposely avoiding making any connections. You're assuming he went into the heaven in order to create a contradiction. The same word (shâmayim) is used for the sky.
jedicharls 1 year ago
@jedicharls " If you read the text with other text in mind it makes sense."
Ah, so if I go beyond the story as it's told here and insert into it things from other texts by other authors, *then* it will all harmonize? Yeah, that's called rewriting the story. I know it's a favorite tactic of apologists--especially apologists for inerrancy--but I'm not interested in rewriting the story, I'm interested in what the story says.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Ah, ok so you start from the opposite end of the spectrum as me and assume the Bible is just a bunch of random flawed books that don't belong together. Yes I believe that it's all one story that blends together. I believe this because if AT LEAST the original text was not inherent then my beliefs ARE pointless.
jedicharls 1 year ago
@jedicharls " Yes I believe that it's all one story that blends together."
No doubt you do. And despite the fact that the texts contradict and differ from one another in many, many ways, you consider it part of your duty to insist that they harmonize. It is precisely that sort of belief that the "Brief Bible Blunders" series is aimed at.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@jedicharls
"You're assuming he went into the heaven in o