Adorno about Beckett and the deformed subject

[FireEyedMaidOfWar]

Ere this I should have fatted all the region kites with this slave's offal: bloody, bawdy villain! Remorseless, treacherous, lecherous, kindless villain! O, vengeance!

[oorgah]

If this is in German then why do you put the title in English?!?!?!

[YUMMYngbird]

the nodding man rules!

[4455matthew]

@YUMMYngbird I know!! I just love that!!!

[67slowslow]

"Optimistisch zu Denken ist kriminell". Eine fernsehdiskusion über Samuel Beckett. （"Frankfurter Adorno Blätter III."）

1968年1月17日ケルンにて収録。

：22

"‥These human stamps, that is to say,these people who have actually lost their selves, really are the products of the world we live in. "（"Adorno: a biography"著者: Stefan Müller-Doohm p.359）

[67slowslow]

0:22

「‥人間の切れ端、つまりそもそも自身の自我を失った人間。こう­した人間はまさに現実に私たちが生きている世界の産物なのです。 」（『アドルノ伝』邦訳p.454より）

[shikomee]

Can I get a translation, into English?

[highskilledsibby]

@shikomee Adorno said: "Everyone says Beckett is a reduction of tecnique to the extreme, I said that myself and it is nothing special about it to say that. But this reduction is what the world makes out of us, to talk with Karl Kraus. This is what the world is doing to us. These human stubs. These humans that lost their "I" - they are the products of the world they live in."

[eltenazas666]

Theodor Rules :)

[zuesthelessor]

All these Frankfurt School alums have altered the course of mankind forever. It was their goal and they've succeeded. The tip of the POZ spear.

[DerSpleenvonParis]

"Now they don't allow Muslims to become citizens of Germany due to thinking Muslims are beneath them in values. This from the country that brought you the holocaust."

Not true. But there is a test about matters like democracy and human rights for people who want to become Germans. This from the coutry that, in the opinion of foreign and domestic intellectuals alike, may well be the least racist in the world today.

[EmmaLippmannIsrael]

@DerSpleenvonParis

No, it's not that romantic. I don't believe that it's so easy to become a german citizen. and you have to think about the way, how immigrants are treated in this country. the politicians and a lot of "intellectuals" are talking about some crazy kind of "parallel-society". the germans are still supposed to believe, that they are differnt from other people, that "being german" (wich is actually not possible) seperates you. this seperation effectuates defensiveness and anger.

[eldiagrama]

ich mag gerne seine "nose"

[JCMcGee]

Das is gut...yah!

[kunstistmist]

Ach ja, der Teddy. Auch so ein Produkt der Welt in der wir leben...

[highskilledsibby]

We are the products of the world we live in- that's true. We have to hate the suffering and try to eliminate it. Not like these christians "to learn to live with it".

[videoclog]

Well spoken!

[mrsmxyzptlk]

Not so much fraud, as narcissist. Hasn't the slightest appreciation for literature OR music. His work has done great damage.

[FlorenceM1982]

No, sorry, this short clip is just part of a documentation about Adorno.

[Martialus80]

"Kriterium des Wahren ist nicht seine unmittelbare Kommunizierbarkeit an jedermann." (ND)

[kristopaivinen]

The greatest reason why Adorno lacked sense for humor was nothing more than the fact, that he was simply bad at it. He was bad at humor, and therefore he attacked the concept, and dismissed laughter at whole.

[highskilledsibby]

He said "Laughing in the cultural industry is mockery of happiness" and he is still true. It doesn't have anything to do with humor...

[kristopaivinen]

In that case, mockery of happiness, especially that of others, is my greatest talent, whether you object to it or not. But preferably, recommend me an easily accessible comedy.

[highskilledsibby]

Every comedy is easy accessible, brother.

[michaelmichael5555]

'it is always said of beckett that he employs a technique of total reduction, i have said so myself and it is no remarkable discovery to say so, but this reduction is actually what the world does to us, to quote karl kraus. what has the world made out of us, these stumps of people who have lost their selves, these really are the products of the world we live in'

[kristopaivinen]

"this reduction is actually what the world does to us, to quote karl kraus. what has the world made out of us, these stumps of people who have lost their selves, these really are the products of the world we live in"

It was the world which made him miserable. Blame the world, blame society! A perfect excuse to liberate the individual from responsibility, at least in some respect, don't you agree?

[poosaypirate]

@kristopaivinen ideally its to find the balance between responsibility and self

[kristopaivinen]

Sure, he hated Gershwin too. I wonder for what reason.

[HolyProphetJoseph]

kristopaivinen Sure, he hated Gershwin too. I wonder for what reason.

Probably because he was a Jew. The Marxists hated the Jews.

[kristopaivinen]

Even when they were Jews themselves?

[HolyProphetJoseph]

Yeah. Hitler was part Jewish & some of the Nazis were Semites, as well.

[kristopaivinen]

Oh. That's nice to hear.

[HolyProphetJoseph]

It is a mystery why so many different people have hated the Jews over the centuries. They had the most enlightened culture in all of antiquity, after all.

[kingafrokyle]

Why is this suddenly a discussion of race? Isn't it most importantly a discussion of Philosophy? I haven't seen any evidence to support he was an anti-semite.... I have however read his argument about disliking most contemporary music, Saying "all objectivist music has the intention of diverting attention away from social issues" at the fore of which, "the reality of living in a nightmare of alienation created by capitalism" His argument is quite valid and interesting.

[kristopaivinen]

This guy had a remarkable talent for making everything he said sounds smarter than it is.

[Jullepwnz]

Although his works are not positivist method, they are still characterized by being extremely smart, or well-read, intellectual, whatever.

[kristopaivinen]

Well-read... yes, he was extremely skilled in the modern art of name-dropping. Blah blah blah Nietzsche blah blah blah Paul Klee blah-bloch-bach-berg Schubert Sesame Street... Elmo=Holocaust! His theories of the historical development of art are far from what science calls theories, and yet he presents them as such. Critical theory indeed! His obnoxiousness against pop culture makes it seem like I commit a crime whenever I go see a movie, and like I accept genocide when I laugh at Adam Sandler.

[DerSpleenvonParis]

If you really laugh at Adam Sandler I think you DO accept genocide, yes.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

I think in German courts they put a stamp of approval on Muslim husbands abusing their wives and thus allow deformed conditioning to occur in their society by saying it is condoned due to their culture.

Now they don't allow Muslims to become citizens of Germany due to thinking Muslims are beneath them in values. This from the country that brought you the holocaust.

[HolyProphetJoseph]

Jullepwnz Although his works are not positivist method, they are still characterized by being extremely smart, or well-read, intellectual, whatever.

How do you judge his "smartness"? The only thing you can do is judge his theories on their merits. And, one must admit he came to very many inane conclusions through dubious argumentation.

It's like a pidgin version of genuine scholarship. He reminds me of Freud, SO sure of himself, yet completely full of BS.

Really, just an academic con artist.

[HolyProphetJoseph]

LMFAO...nice

These Frankfurt-ers sure loved creating nonsense.

[sebreathnach]

Im schlechtenes Deutsch -- es is nicht moglich eine theorie zu erschafen uber Beckett oder uber seine dramatis personae in 500 worten ,und leute die sagen dass sie konnen aus ein halb dutzen worte von Adorno since veruckt!

[fersfarah]

no.. not even close ;)

[plenipotentiarius]

In English, let me guess:

"the work of Beckett as a 'technical' reduction of the world and the subject is its key knowledge but this knowledge is true of the world that is a hair's breadth away from devastation. These men (Beckett's characters) are the stunted product of life today."

Was my translation even close?

[Logicopositivi]

Auf English bitte. Ich kann nicht Deutsche verstanden.

[mikongo]

Oh God I'd like an english translation of that.

[PaoloSLoup]

Alle, die hier wider die Deformation des Subjekts poltern sollten sich einmal klar machen, was Adorno damit meint. Es geht dabei keineswegs um einen Urzustand der verlassen wurde und wieder erreicht werden sollte. Auch alle pseudodialektischen Manöver der Form "Adorno deformiert, indem er die Deformation diagnostiziert." sind der Sache nach haltlos.

[bjoernsn]

Ist nun die frage, ob man seiner theorie einen evidenz anspruch zukommen lassen kann? da sie eigentlich nur durch sich selbst wiederlegt werden kann.

er deformiert in der beschreibung der deformation!

[bjoernsn]

es gibt keine subjekt im urzustand, weil der urzustand , fern jeder betrachtung ist, und somit auch keine differenz bzw. keine deformation stattfinden kann...

Und da jede art von kommunikation, auch eine art von deformation beinhaltet, da sie eine gewollte oder auch ungewollte übernahme / beeinflussung bedingt,kann sich adorno gegen den vorwurf nicht wehren, er beschreibt vielleicht auch nur den prozess der deformation, und deformiert dabei, das liegt in der natur der sache.

[bjoernsn]

is nur die frage ob, der mensch zuerst etwas aus der welt macht, um dann später die somit geschaffenen kategorie einzusetzen, um eine neue welt zuerschaffen?

-> als grundelage der kulturindustrie? und der aus ihr

folgenden ich-losigkeit des menschen?

ist es die frage was zuerst da war, das objekt oder das subjekt, das doch erst durch das erkennen der eigen differenz zum objekt, subjekt und objekt erschafft.

[SethHowes]

"-says always of Beckett that it's a technique of reduction of that which is to be expressed. And I've said the same, and--I think--it is not any longer a coup [to say this] at all. But this reduction is that which the world makes out of us, to speak with Karl Kraus. That, the world has made of us. These stumps of people, these people who have LOST their 'I' - these are, then really the products of the world in which we live."

[Ignatzberlin]

Immer diese Idee des "deformierten" Subjekts...Wie soll es denn ein Subjekt im Urzustand geben? Kaspar Hauser vielleich?! Kam Adorno je auf die Idee, dass seine Interpretationen im Endeffekt auch "Deformationsversuche" sind?

[a7d9]

Yes, but did he (or did he not) write or rewrite lyrics for EMI as sung by The Beatles? As of todays business as many as a hundred ghostwriters could contribute small (or larger) parts to well-known #1 records, what was it like back then? (and if Adorno did not do it, who else rewrote pop lyrics like Huxley helped Disney cartoonists out in the 50's?). Adorno might not like pop music more than George Martin but as a well-paid job anyone could have done/considered such a task.

[dtrcvideo]

A rarely viewed film, say, where do you get this?

[FlorenceM1982]

It is a snippet out of a TV documentation with the title "Wer denkt, ist nicht wütend"

[dtrcvideo]

Danke!