Phil Zuckerman - Atheists, Agnostics, and the Irreligious [1/9]

[AteistiskSelskab]

@valu777 Zeus is alive - where is the body? I've got "written proof" too... Look here: Zeus is alive!!!

[AteistiskSelskab]

@valu777 "written proof" - you gotta be kidding. All mythology is probably proof enough to uncritical thinkers like you... Zeus is ak

[BBFNTL]

@valu777 Does it say "Argument from ignorance" on your passport?

[valu777]

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." – Revelation 12:11

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Whenever the topic is the stupidity of the religious, there will always be one willing to prove the irreligious right...

"Thou shall never use circular reasoning." - PI 3:14

[valu777]

@AGrandt WHEREVER evil appears it is to be fought with by the children of God in the name of Jesus, and in the power of the Holy Ghost. When evil appeared in an angel, straightway there was war in heaven. Evil in mortal men is to be striven against by all regenerate men Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892).

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Do you really want to call upon religious "morality", considering the history of religion and?

While there have been a few "Atheist" regimes which were by and large evil and oppressive, they pale in comparison to the evil done throughout history, in the name of gods, however none have done so much evil as the followers of the Abrahamic god and Jesus, be it Christianity or Islam.

[valu777]

@AGrandt nice personal opinion , baseless and faceless all the same,

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Less so than yours. You refer to a book, I refer to reality.

[valu777]

@AGrandt here is reality 520 weeks in every 10 years right? how many weeks do you have left to live? reality a finite amount what then o wizen one? coming back as an ant?

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Death is final, though our remains are ultimately recycled.

Besides, you should really have spent more time in a real school, instead of wasting your time in Sunday school.

"520 weeks in every 10 years"...Bwhahahahaha...WRONG!

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Send me one more PM with your drivel, and I'll do more than just report you for spam.

[valu777]

@AGrandt are you offended about Jesus dieing to save you? it is his Blood that answers the charges against you, God is watching all you do an asks an account when you die, i would say that you are infested with unclean spirits that make you do what you do not wish to do , in the name of Jesus we can cast them out of you and clean your soul , Just say the word Jesus to be saved

[AGrandt]

@valu777 I'm offended that anyone would think that their own sins would be forgiven by calling upon a guy who have been dead for at least 2000 years, if he ever lived.

I'm offended that anyone would think they are better than people who take responsibility for their own life, and are good, for no other reason than to be good.

When you get to the bottom of it, why are you "good"?

Only because you fear the consequences in an afterlife?

If that is the case, you are truly a despicable individual.

[valu777]

@AGrandt YOU NEED blind faith to be an atheist

1. man has no proof on the age of the earth or universe (all calculations on this make assumptions on input data at some point)

2. eviloution is not witnessed in nature (ants are are a prime example of no evilootion)

3, gay is a choice (addicted sexual perversion is the co0ndition of most gay ppl)

4. eye witness testimony of Jesus resurrection (proof and evidence of his victory over death)

[AGrandt]

@valu777 I need no faith to be an Atheist, that is the very definition of the word.

1. There are plenty of evidence, and from multiple sources.

2. Evolution have been observed. Though it's rare, as it's a slow process requiring multiple generations of a species to react to the changes in the environment and manifest the adaptations.

3. Partially right, but people are wired for a preferences which influences that choice.

4. Nope, none what so ever, don't use the bible to prove the bible.

3.

[valu777]

@AGrandt fail if organisms are produced at random ,why are so many with 2 eyes?

the odds of random=2 over and over in millions of turns is farout , i would say 2 eyes = design as it allows 3d depth of perception

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Organisms are the result of the NON random selection of randomly varying replicators.

[valu777]

@AGrandt ( NON random selection) this then must be intelligence, a designer selecting right? as how can you have unintellectual non random?/

[AGrandt]

@valu777 The non random selection is the environment. If a random change is beneficial and aids its survival, the change is passed on to the next generation, if not, the chances are slim that it will happen.

History is full of examples where previously beneficial changes turn out to be lethal later on. For instance large lizards tend to fare badly in an ice age. They don't produce their own body heat, something that is a great energy saver in warmer climates.

[valu777]

@AGrandt 4. Nope, none what so ever, don't use the bible to prove the bible.

lets use the bible to prove the world ?

the bible foretells world events , how?

[AGrandt]

@valu777 If you are vague enough, you are bound to get something partially right after the fact, especially with enough repetition.

Besides, ever heard about self fulfilling prophecy?

Fanatics believing in a "foretold" event will likely try to make sure the event comes to pass.

Besides, didn't the bible get a LOT wrong as well, how can you trust a book that have been more wrong than right? It certainly makes for a lousy guide.

[valu777]

@AGrandt like a whole nation returning to Israel after 2,000 years can be orchestrated , right?

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Yep, it was.

The Jewish people wanted that particular area BECAUSE they laid claim to it via the bible.

[valu777]

@AGrandt try the destruction of the temple?

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Which one, I'm sure there have been a lot of temples and churches destroyed over the years.

And please keep in mind that the bible was written centuries after the events depicted therein.

[valu777]

@AGrandt its not my job to educate you , try looking up the for filled prophecy's of the bible

[AGrandt]

@valu777 All I get is here-say and tales written after the fact, which hardly qualifies as "prophesy"

But talking about education, Try and read up on science, starting with Science 101, and you'll see why it is so much more robust than "faith" when explaining the world we live in, and why it doesn't require faith to have confidence in it.

Because that is exactly what science is about, confidence.

[valu777]

@AGrandt i apologize for rating your comprehension higher than it is , its hardly possible for todays events to be written in the bible after the fact

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Be specific. Vague claims are useless. As I stated in another reply, you are the one making the claims...

[justicecallicles]

@valu777

"A flute with no holes is not a flute. And, a doughnut with no hole is a Danish." -- Caddyshack

[valu777]

@justicecallicles an atheist with no God is a Dill

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Dill? Is that some sort of derogatory term?

[valu777]

@AGrandt a dill is a Australian word for idiot

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Thanks. I'm ending the "debate" here. You lost it right there.

[valu777]

@AGrandt losers run away

[AGrandt]

@valu777 And winners walk away heads held high, as I'm about to do now.

[valu777]

@AGrandt i take that as a win in the name of Jesus , 3 cheers for his Blood

[AGrandt]

@valu777 You don't get it, do you?

You lost the "debate" on morality when you decided to call your opponents idiots. Besides you never did answer my question on WHY you are 'good'. That is assuming you are of course.

[valu777]

@AGrandt you called yourself that i just extended a rhyme , why am i good ? i am made holy through the blood of Jesus(Gods Blood) the blood that rescued me and allowed God to re create me (born again) that old things are passed away and all things become new, unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom ofv God,,ever tasted the power of the ages to come?

[AGrandt]

@valu777 When did I call myself an idiot?

As for being "good", you claim you are good only because you pray to an invisible sky daddy, and a 2000 year old corpse, all in an effort to get into their good graces in an afterlife?

Not because you do good just for the sake of being a good person?

[valu777]

@AGrandt when you said their is no God you are saying that you are an idiot the bible say fool to be more correct

[AGrandt]

@valu777 There are no gods. And I'm no fool for saying so, because no one have been able to prove to me that there is any, and that religion is accurate and correct.

Belief is the delusion people cling to when there are no evidence to their ideas, despite plenty of evidence that their position is in error.

So tell me again, who is the more foolish, the fool who take old tales at face value, or the fool who want proof before accepting outlandish claims?

[valu777]

@AGrandt try the eye witness accounts , try the fact that Christians do the works of Jesus raising the dead (proving death is defeated) today

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Say what?? Where have christians raised any dead (by other means than medical science)?

And which eye witness accounts, you throw a lot of vague references around, be more specific. You are the one making the outlandish claims, so you get to provide the evidence, with references, or I have no other course than to declare your claims null and void.

But remember this, science does not allow circular reasoning, so proving the bible by referencing the bible, even indirectly, is out.

[valu777]

@AGrandt the eye witness accounts of Mathew Mark Luke John Jude and Paul as recorded in the letters they wrote to others accounting what happed with Jesus , NOW THIS IS EVIDENCE AND PROOF of Jesus defeating death on the cross proven by his resurrection (specific enough for you?)

[AGrandt]

@valu777 And I'm saying that the source of the bible and the bible itself is entirely suspect. There are so many contradictions and errors in it that claiming that THESE passages are 100% accurate is a pretty big stretch of imagination.

Besides if I recall, none of them ever saw Jesus raise and exit the grave. No one did.

[valu777]

@AGrandt na the bible is fine over 27,000 manurscrips all agree even the dead sea scrolls agree , its a know thing that the bible is reliable , as for Jesus they all saw him on the cross and then after they all had dinner with him , they all suffered and died for their stand that Jesus is alive

[AdamdeMalyns]

@valu777 "the bible is fine over 27,000 manurscrips all agree even the dead sea scrolls agree"

The depends on what you mean by "agree". There are more differences between the known ancient manuscripts than there are words in the Bible. They "agree" insofar as there usually exist dominant variations we can assume are more accurate, and thus be fairly hopeful we've pieced together much of the original text. This work, though, does make it appear that some of the NT we rely on is later addition.

[AGrandt]

@valu777 To you maybe, but to non-Christians the Bible is known to be seriously deficient and self contradictory; a class example of amoral behaviour, with a mean spirited bully and mass murderer as a god; a role model with a serious case of schizophrenia, megalomania and paranoia.

So excuse me for not wanting to take part of any of that, even if I did believe there were such a supernatural being. I don't.

In fact, I KNOW there are no god. I know, because there are NO proof of any gods existing.

[valu777]

@AGrandt only an idiot believes that there is no God (according to the bible)

the Blood of Jesus contains all his descendent's (blood line) all were made extinct on the cross in a not lawful way , Jesus compensation for his bloodline is a bankrupted creation and eternal life for all ppl he wishes to give it to ,

to make it fair all one needs to do is accept it by way of saying thank you , in this way God has forgiven all of mankind

what is the problem?

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Again you use the bible to justify bigotry. Shame on you.

Jesus is dead. If he ever lived that is, he's not wishing anything.

The problem is that as I said, the bible id a horrible foundation for anyone to base their reality, both in the form of morality as well as it being patently WRONG on so many counts that it's nearly impossible to list them all in anything shorter than the bible itself.

Why should I profess my love to something that have never been proven? Can not be proven?

[valu777]

@AGrandt Jesus is dead?? got the proof? where is the body? empty tomb? , as there is written proof that he is alive

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Oh, anybody can cause a body to "vanish", especially in those times...Lack of evidence, and dubious tales does not constitute proof of anything other than a dead guy disappeared. Most likely not the first, and certainly not the last time that happened.

And before I have to prove that Jesus is dead, you probably have to probe that he was real and lived first, it is after all you who are making the claims that he existed.

As for the dead sea scrolls corroborate the bible. Not good enough

[valu777]

@AGrandt im waiting for your proof / waiting waiting oh judgement day is here im still waiting = look Jesus is alive and casting you into the lake of FIRE oh now you know but its 2 late for you then

[AGrandt]

@valu777 I'm not the one making outlandish claims about gods and Jesus being alive. You are, ergo you have to prove your claims before I have to do anything other than scoff at your delusions.

[valu777]

@AGrandt the bible warns that in the last days scoffers will come

[AGrandt]

@valu777 The bible is from what is known based on part of the dead sea scrolls, just as the dead sea scrolls are in part based on the bible

Religion is an old construct that have little to no place in a modern society, and definitely not in any authoritative capacity. It is based on a number of disjointed allegories and anecdotes. Nothing more. Sadly some people decided to take it seriously.

[valu777]

@AGrandt you are right the bible says that in the last days faith will be hard to find , it also says the way of salvation is strait and narrow and only a few find it , it also says that the way of destruction is wide and many fall into it , my question to you is are you saved?

[AGrandt]

@valu777 Quit the condescending tone, making us out to be "idiots" and in need of being "saved", Saved from what exactly?

From my point of you, you are no better than the thug with a gun, asking people to get on their knees and hand over their wallet, or he'll shoot them, but if they do as he says, they'll be saved?

You are the one living in a fantasy, a violent fantasy, filled with hate, racism, oppression and death. It is not healthy.

[valu777]

@AGrandt the love of the gospel is not hate am i right?

saved ??? the payoff for sin is death ! are you a good person? have you ever told a lie , stolen something , lusted , greed , hate , violence , trusted in anything other than God , hurt someones feelings , death awaits the sinner the 2nd death thats what Jesus saves us from

[AGrandt]

@valu777 And of course you have never told a lie, stolen something, lusted, felt greed, hate, violence, or hurt someones feelings.

All I'm saying is that people should take responsibility for our own failures, mistakes and transgressions, not shove it under a virtual carpet and feel we've been forgiven by an invisible sky daddy, instead of just apologizing the people we may have hurt ion our journey through life.

[valu777]

@AGrandt take responsibility and march right int Hell Fire , what are you going to pay for your sin with?

[AGrandt]

@valu777 I prefer to pay for my "sins", if I have any, in the real life, where they would have been committed, rather than ignoring my responsibilities.

[valu777]

@AGrandt the payment for sin is death = do you have a spare life in your wallet to pay the death penalty?

[AGrandt]

@valu777 First, I am opposed to capital punishment in any way or form.

Second, I don't recognize the authority of your bible. I have stated why that is numerous times already.

[valu777]

@AGrandt good for you

[TrueRamses]

@valu777 Wow. You are just a rabid fool aren't you?

It's very nice to meet people like you because it makes me realize that I and all of myself are better than at least some people.

How do you get off preaching your gospel to others? Believe me, I know a little about religion and I very strongly believe that the first person who would disown you would be Jesus. You are exactly what he preached against.

[valu777]

@TrueRamses Believe me, I know a little about religion=== this is well said by you

[TrueRamses]

@valu777

Umm... Are you being ironic or taking that to heart?

[TrueRamses]

The bible is a creation of man. Jesus... might not be. But if anything both the bible and the apocryphic scripts tell us that Jesus was not a demanding person, he did never expect faith from his fellow man, he expected decency. And whatever you claim yourself to be I am quite sure, if he woule be alive today, me and Jesus would go out for a glass of wine long before he would share a piece of bread with you.

[TrueRamses]

@valu777

Oh and also, you suck.

[doaftheloaf]

@valu777 and the quran is written proof of allah. and the harry potter books are written proof of him.

are you really naive and stupid enough to believe everything you read?

[doaftheloaf]

@valu777 oh, and where is this tomb, btw? if you can locate it for me, that still proves nothing, because the reason jesus'tomb was empty is because there never was a historical jesus.

[valu777]

@doaftheloaf nice mere assumption . many many ppl have seen the risen Jesus try google ????

[doaftheloaf]

@valu777 who were these people? all we have are the biblical claims. no contemporary extrabiblical corraboration whatsoever.

[valu777]

@doaftheloaf please be awakened in Jesus name ? there are many many extra bibliial writings about Jesus , in fact he is the subject of more books than any other person , even our calander is based on him ???

wow now thats the hand of God right there in the date it even crosses at the c ross

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." – Revelation 12:11

[doaftheloaf]

@valu777 the calendar is based on the supposed date of jesus birth, which they've gotten wrong - even if he did exist, he was not born at the year of the turn of the common era (BC to AD), nor does anyone know the actual time of year. the gospels themselves seem to suggest he was born in around 6 BC, or 4 AD, depending on which gospel writer you read, because of the events the gospels tie to them, such as caesar taxing the world, or herod's reign, etc...

[doaftheloaf]

@valu777 the reason the calendar is based on jesus' birth is because some high-ranking church officials decided to center the calendar on what they thought was the year of his birth. this would have happened some time after christianity became the roman official religion, at least three centuries after the supposed life of jesus. the church would never have had the power to do so before that.

[doaftheloaf]

@valu777 yes, lots of people have written about jesus. do you know what the word contemporary means? 

nobody IN HIS TIME had anything to say about him. no one who wrote about jesus ever met him. some, ir not all, of the gospels date to the second century. and of course, there were plenty of people living at the time and in the region where the gospels say jesus lived, and who wrote about the types of things jesus is said to have done, and they don't say a thing about him.

[valu777]

@doaftheloaf did you know in his time they killed all the Christians , no one was game to write any thing for fear of persecution , but many early writings by believers who had the faith and courage to write survive , furthermore Christians of today are showing the signs and wonders of Jesus casting out demons healing the sick raising the dead , all signs of the truth , praise the Lord Jesus

[doaftheloaf]

@valu777 bullshit. the persecution only began in the last years of the reign of nero, a full three decades after jesus allegedly lived. and the early writings by the believers that mention him at all originate well after this. and there is no secular mention of him until after that.

and i'd like to see this proof you have of these "signs and wonders" you cite. i've never seen ANYONE raise a dead person back to life.

[valu777]

@doaftheloaf  /watch?v=v_oKEaQ577w

[doaftheloaf]

@valu777 "wow now thats the hand of God right there in the date it even crosses at the c ross"

no, it crosses at the date of his alleged birth. or more accurately, it crosses at the date where those aforementioned church officials agreed to place it.

and as for your bible quote, it's totally irrelevant to anything we're talking about, and i don't believe your mythology book anyway.

[justicecallicles]

@valu777

My quote at least made sense.

[AGrandt]

@justicecallicles A typical problem with the religious fanatics, they rarely make sense when you think about it.

[doaftheloaf]

@AGrandt that's because they never think about it.

[AGrandt]

@doaftheloaf I can't believe valu777 is still at it here, I gave up making sense of his ramblings months ago.

A chaotic pendulum makes more sense than valu777, though he is about as easy to predict as gravity.

[BBFNTL]

Phil's introduction translated:

Thanks alot. Oh! I am really happy to be here but my danish is not so good. My children speak danish but my daughter visited Copenhagen and dis not understand the dialect so I thought...

[RentTheSpokeMan]

I thought that was thunderf00t at first.