@gambleor it means in the physical sense like moses and egypt. from the long exile we are currently in. spiritually your right a person through their free will determines his spiritual fate. the biggest proof of this is you and all the other haters of the nation of israel that attack on utube or otherwise.
@YetzerTov12 i would argue that Paul's intentions are the most important to understanding what it is that he was saying. I'd like to know what you conclude when you read his references because it's very clear to me that his references are a widely accepted and authoritative Greek translation of the Scriptures.
@TheMessianicDrew We have no Jewish or Christian records for who translated the the book of Isaiah into Greek. From the Jewish records we know that the 5 books of Moses were translated by Rabbi's. Beyond that there's no record. The fact is that the Greek translation of Isaiah 59:20 is not faithful to the text. For purpose of illustration check the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 9:6 and see if you agree with it.
@Jews4Judaism This whole video accuses Paul of deliberately altering the text. Unless you are willing to argue that Paul covered his tracks by translating Isaiah into Greek, and then forged the introduction to the Greek Ben Sirach to mention a Greek translation of the Torah and Prophets (132 BCE), and somehow retroactively convinced Philo to write a Bible commentary in Greek for Hellenized Jews. Good luck with that.
Thank you for sharing this the truth of how Christians manipulate our Texts to fit into their theology. Another excellent read is "Lets Get Biblical" by Rabbi Tovia Singer. Check him out on his site "Outreach Judaism" (google it). Under the "Let's Get Biblical" link are other excellent teachings of who the suffering servant is (not Jesus), Daniel's 9's (also not about Jesus) and other true translations of "our" Torah.
Paul was quoting the Septuagint translation which agrees with his usage in Romans 11:26. He wasn't twisting the words of scripture, he was effectively using an accepted source text among Greek speaking Jews at the time.
Please read john chapter16 verse 8-9 there Jesus tells about what is really thee sin. Jesus is the king of the jews, He was God in humanflesh, He is the king of kings, He is the savior of the world, He is the Almighty Creater of all things, He is the messiah that died for the sins of the world. Please jews ask God to show you the real truth about who Jesus is. Its important to belive in Jesus because we have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore >>>>his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
what is the meaning of redeemer----- ?The obligations of the goel include the duty to redeem the relative from slavery, if the latter had been obliged to sell himself into serfdom (Leviticus 25: 48-49); to repurchase the property of a relative who had had to sell it because of poverty; to avenge the blood of his relative; to marry his brother's widow in order to have a son for his brother, in case the brother had not got any son to pass his name forth (Deuteronomy 25:5-6)............
God only gave us a law that we were able to keep? Since when we are able to keep God's Law? In the beginning Adam and Eve were perfect and had no sin, yet they were not able to keep God's command. We are not perfect as Adam and Eve and yet you claim we can keep the Law of God by ourselves. The story of Adam and Eve shows that we can not, because without Ruach Hakodesh, Satan will deceive us. Only with Ruach Hakodesh can man keep God's commands. The Holy Spirit makes us holy, not our effort.
It is written in Romans "and this is how all Israel will be saved. As scripture says: From Zion will come the Redeemer, he will remove godlessness from Jacob.". Is it not written how Israel will be saved? "Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When the LORD turneth the captivity of His people, let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.". Has Israel not rejected their God? "...they have rejected Me, that I should not be king over them." and it is so to this day! How much longer?
As a former xian I'll tell you why this argument is faulty & wont help your cause (while it's true that it says TO Tzyon not FROM). 1) This quote is from the xian Septuagint 2) Those not familiar w/ the Septuagint.will say that Paul didn't give a reference for his statement. nor did he say both ideas came from 1 particular passage 3) It actually was "written" that Hashem would "remove ungodliness" from Yisreal throughout the prophets writings in Yirm 31, Zech 3, Yirm 50, Yesh 43 etc...
Paul's "version" of that passage from Isaiah is found in the septuagint. So either he is quoting from the septuagint, or later christian editors modified the septuagint to match his wording of that passage. To my knowledge no one knows who translated the Prophets and Writings into greek, so it could be either one...it would seem.
No, Paul wasn't quoting the Septuagint. Paul's phrase αφελωμαι τας αμαρτιας occurring in Romans 11:27 (or anything resembling it) never appears in Isaiah 59:21 or its context. The LXX text of Isaiah 59:20-21 matches the Hebrew text almost verbatim. Clearly, οταν αφελωμαι τας αμαρτιας αυτων is a Pauline invention designed to interpolate hamartiological significance into Isaiah 59. No significant textual variants occur in Romans 11:27, so the text is sure. Paul was simply being dishonest.
@HeroOfChristArchives I was basing my comments on an english translation of the LXX which said the following for v 20: "And the deliverer shall come for Sion’s sake, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
Right, but I was referring to vs. 21, not to vs. 20. Again, Paul's phrase αφελωμαι τας αμαρτιας occurring in Romans 11:27 never appears in Isaiah 59:21 or its context.
@gambleor it means in the physical sense like moses and egypt. from the long exile we are currently in. spiritually your right a person through their free will determines his spiritual fate. the biggest proof of this is you and all the other haters of the nation of israel that attack on utube or otherwise.
smag61306 3 weeks ago
@YetzerTov12 i would argue that Paul's intentions are the most important to understanding what it is that he was saying. I'd like to know what you conclude when you read his references because it's very clear to me that his references are a widely accepted and authoritative Greek translation of the Scriptures.
gambleor 1 month ago
Romans 11:26
ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ ῥυόμενος,
ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ.
[the deliverer will come of Zion, will remove ungodliness from Jacob]
Isaiah 59:20 (Septuagint):
καὶ ἥξει ἕνεκεν σιων ὁ ῥυόμενος καὶ ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ ιακωβ
[the deliverer will come for Zion and will remove ungodliness from Jacob]
Remember that ancient Greek did not have quotation marks, and paraphrasing was very common.
TheMessianicDrew 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@TheMessianicDrew We have no Jewish or Christian records for who translated the the book of Isaiah into Greek. From the Jewish records we know that the 5 books of Moses were translated by Rabbi's. Beyond that there's no record. The fact is that the Greek translation of Isaiah 59:20 is not faithful to the text. For purpose of illustration check the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 9:6 and see if you agree with it.
Jews4Judaism 1 month ago
@Jews4Judaism This whole video accuses Paul of deliberately altering the text. Unless you are willing to argue that Paul covered his tracks by translating Isaiah into Greek, and then forged the introduction to the Greek Ben Sirach to mention a Greek translation of the Torah and Prophets (132 BCE), and somehow retroactively convinced Philo to write a Bible commentary in Greek for Hellenized Jews. Good luck with that.
TheMessianicDrew 1 month ago
@TheMessianicDrew You conveniently chose not to respond to my comment about Isaiah 9:6 :)
Jews4Judaism 1 month ago
@Jews4Judaism Why should I? All it does is serve as further evidence that neither Paul nor the church fabricated the Septuagint.
TheMessianicDrew 2 weeks ago
Thank you for sharing this the truth of how Christians manipulate our Texts to fit into their theology. Another excellent read is "Lets Get Biblical" by Rabbi Tovia Singer. Check him out on his site "Outreach Judaism" (google it). Under the "Let's Get Biblical" link are other excellent teachings of who the suffering servant is (not Jesus), Daniel's 9's (also not about Jesus) and other true translations of "our" Torah.
lgebaroff 1 month ago
Why would the redeemer be coming to a people that are already redeeming themselves?
gambleor 2 months ago
Paul was quoting the Septuagint translation which agrees with his usage in Romans 11:26. He wasn't twisting the words of scripture, he was effectively using an accepted source text among Greek speaking Jews at the time.
gambleor 2 months ago
read the new testament thoroughly and pray to God with a sincere hearth to show you the truth about who Jesus Christ really is.
fettkatt87 3 months ago
Please read john chapter16 verse 8-9 there Jesus tells about what is really thee sin. Jesus is the king of the jews, He was God in humanflesh, He is the king of kings, He is the savior of the world, He is the Almighty Creater of all things, He is the messiah that died for the sins of the world. Please jews ask God to show you the real truth about who Jesus is. Its important to belive in Jesus because we have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
fettkatt87 3 months ago
Who is the right arm of YHWH ? is not He the Redeemer ?
mili7i 3 months ago
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore >>>>his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
mili7i 3 months ago
what is the meaning of redeemer----- ?The obligations of the goel include the duty to redeem the relative from slavery, if the latter had been obliged to sell himself into serfdom (Leviticus 25: 48-49); to repurchase the property of a relative who had had to sell it because of poverty; to avenge the blood of his relative; to marry his brother's widow in order to have a son for his brother, in case the brother had not got any son to pass his name forth (Deuteronomy 25:5-6)............
mili7i 3 months ago
God only gave us a law that we were able to keep? Since when we are able to keep God's Law? In the beginning Adam and Eve were perfect and had no sin, yet they were not able to keep God's command. We are not perfect as Adam and Eve and yet you claim we can keep the Law of God by ourselves. The story of Adam and Eve shows that we can not, because without Ruach Hakodesh, Satan will deceive us. Only with Ruach Hakodesh can man keep God's commands. The Holy Spirit makes us holy, not our effort.
HamalachMichael 3 months ago
It is written in Romans "and this is how all Israel will be saved. As scripture says: From Zion will come the Redeemer, he will remove godlessness from Jacob.". Is it not written how Israel will be saved? "Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When the LORD turneth the captivity of His people, let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.". Has Israel not rejected their God? "...they have rejected Me, that I should not be king over them." and it is so to this day! How much longer?
HamalachMichael 3 months ago
Probably the best Jewish group on Youtube for me ! Thanks!
pawel86able 3 months ago
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As a former xian I'll tell you why this argument is faulty & wont help your cause (while it's true that it says TO Tzyon not FROM). 1) This quote is from the xian Septuagint 2) Those not familiar w/ the Septuagint.will say that Paul didn't give a reference for his statement. nor did he say both ideas came from 1 particular passage 3) It actually was "written" that Hashem would "remove ungodliness" from Yisreal throughout the prophets writings in Yirm 31, Zech 3, Yirm 50, Yesh 43 etc...
BornInTzyon 4 months ago
Comment removed
BornInTzyon 4 months ago
Paul's "version" of that passage from Isaiah is found in the septuagint. So either he is quoting from the septuagint, or later christian editors modified the septuagint to match his wording of that passage. To my knowledge no one knows who translated the Prophets and Writings into greek, so it could be either one...it would seem.
rgpias 4 months ago
@rgpias
No, Paul wasn't quoting the Septuagint. Paul's phrase αφελωμαι τας αμαρτιας occurring in Romans 11:27 (or anything resembling it) never appears in Isaiah 59:21 or its context. The LXX text of Isaiah 59:20-21 matches the Hebrew text almost verbatim. Clearly, οταν αφελωμαι τας αμαρτιας αυτων is a Pauline invention designed to interpolate hamartiological significance into Isaiah 59. No significant textual variants occur in Romans 11:27, so the text is sure. Paul was simply being dishonest.
HeroOfChristArchives 3 months ago
@HeroOfChristArchives I was basing my comments on an english translation of the LXX which said the following for v 20: "And the deliverer shall come for Sion’s sake, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
rgpias 3 months ago
@rgpias
Right, but I was referring to vs. 21, not to vs. 20. Again, Paul's phrase αφελωμαι τας αμαρτιας occurring in Romans 11:27 never appears in Isaiah 59:21 or its context.
HeroOfChristArchives 3 months ago