@stockcar5472 I don't know what you mean when you say the hand creates power. What power does the hand create relevant a succession of notes in a scale for example. If what you say is true when why did God give us 4 fingers and a thumb- I prefer to use 10 digits (or instruments) when playing the piano. Are you really happy to use only two (hands)?
@varkala I meant movement. There is obviously finger power or else no notes! I am really talking about the expansion and contraction of the hand up and down the keyboard being smooth and an evenly held wrist which gives the necessary relaxation in the fingers. Does this technique work without pedal?
@stockcar5472 Of course it works without pedal. The withdrawing of the finger from the key, towards the palm, circular non-stop movement, which is the Bach method, as opposed to the up/down/stop/start of Czerny means that this type of finger movement can be timed to be stacc. mezzo-stacc or legato, or any variation in between. It's the same qualitative movement, just a matter of degree. The problem with 'an evenly held wrist' is it doesn't take into account the different finger lengths.
@stockcar5472 You will not read about this in text books except the briefest of references- this is because the Czerny method won the war!! The problem being, like Iraq, it created more problems, e.g. high finger technique resulting in carpal tunnel etc, which then led to the weight transfer/rotation methods. The Bach method used the inherent grasping power of the finger; the Czerny and subsequent developments require active arm participation- even the finger supporting the wright of the arm.
You can't play legato on the piano truly - when the note is struck it dies away even with the pedal down.The 'sustain' pedal helps to lengthen the note - ie keep the dampers off. Therefore, all that remains once the pedal is down is to strike the notes - the fact that it is legato is irrelevant. It won't enhance the length or the joining of notes except in technique - ie for the pianist's technique it is easier to play with an even tone rather than staccato when playing with the pedal.
@stockcar5472 I agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't understand what you mean by 'even tone rather than staccato'. And if you mean it is easier to play legato rather than staccato, I disagree; it certainly isn't easier at 176 quarters to the minute.
Perhaps the purpose is to be able to play it as fast as possible without getting tired. Stretching is one step removed from simply reaching and certainly there is reaching done by the 5th finger and thumb- which involves opening and closing of the hand, but stretching sounds a bit like as work out, and work outs are always tiring. So I completely disagree with you on the purpose of the study. Passive stretching can help extend your reach, but I feel it's best to do that away from the keyboard.
i thought the purpose of this study was to teach you right hand stretches, that wont happen if you use that stoccato flick technique? will it? im confused :s
Yes but you are using the weight of the arm in the full playing of it. Either this guy doesn't notice that he's actually using the weight of the arm and has a weird erroneous perception that he's 'just' 'flicking' his fingers, or else he's being purposely disingenuous.
@noonesflower Can you take nothing at face value? It's arm MOVEMENT which is necessary, but if I am saying I am not using the weight of the arm can you not accept that?
What purpose would SAYING I am not using arm weight serve, if I am doing so?
Why would i purposely try to mislead people?
Perhaps it is you who purposely and purposefully misunderstand!!
@varkala Very interesting and unique method! I do have a few questions though. Isn't the study of this etude to develop a stretch to reach the large intervals between the 2/3, 3/4 and 4/5 fingers? Also, playing staccato with pedal gives a completely different color than playing legato with pedal. Pedal gives an illusion of legato, though it's not true legato. Anyone with a good ear can easily differentiate legato and staccato if the pedal is continuously held down. Just a few thoughts. :D
@440HertzPiano Further to the other 2 posts- at 176 the fast recurrence of the BEGINNINGS of the tones allows no time to wonder about the ENDS of them! I only quote good authority when I say legato is an illusion. One hears so much about 'physical' or 'true' legato confusing rubbish......I prefer to think of each note as a bell and the finger as the clapper- no way does the clapper STICK to the bell. And most important- using the finger method of BACH, and not CZERNY etc....is EASY! Best, Roy
@440HertzPiano I checked your page and listened to Geet Dehoux playing Op10 No1- he bravely takes the pedal off at times and it certainly is not legato in the 'physical' or 'true' sense. Are we expected to believe he is doing something different technically when he has the pedal down? I think not. Listen to Cortot Op25 No1- he lifts the pedal quite near the end (perhaps a mistake) - again it is not legato, but mezzo staccato. Cheers, Roy
@varkala Though I must say, I do like the color that you get from playing staccato or mezzo staccato with the pedal held down, though if I were to play the piece this way for a piano competition or audition, I doubt the judges would take it seriously. Interesting method though, I always like new creative ideas. I do kinda get sick of the way people always play things EXACTLY the same, and I have no doubt this method might be more suitable for those with smaller hands. I like it. Kudos! :D
@440HertzPiano When all's said and done it's all about the sound or color. If you play Op10 No1 at quarter=176 the judges can only be impressed- if you have clarity in EVERY note even more impressed. 176 means 12 events per second. The question is how valid is the holding of one key until the next one is played when things are happening so fast.
@440HertzPiano Busoni and Louis Kentner talk about the illusion of legato- and that is exactly what it is- the piano is built in such a way as not to permit legato in the singing sense- the mark of a great artist according to Kentner is how well this fact is disguised. I have listened to performances of 'true' legato and very often every note is not played with clarity, and the pedal provides a wash of sound to disguise this. R
@varkala Very good points. I remember reading something in which Chopin quoted something along the lines of "the human brain cannot differentiate legato when playing a fast scale or arpeggio" I assume he was talking about thumb-over. In a very fast scale or (more so) an arpeggio it's impossible to tuck the thumb under, there is a small but noticeable silence where the thumb would usually tuck under to bridge the notes (legato). For this, it's acceptable to use pedal.
@440HertzPiano I am delighted to read that quote; it supports my point of view!! The silence I think becomes less noticeable at increasing speeds. Your comment re thumb OVER tells me you know a thing or two, but you will incur the wrath of youtubers if you publicise it! I'm convinced things went awry when Czerny contradicted the finger movements of earlier keyboardists. (See my book New Dynamic Finger Power) I'm used to the same sort of criticism by weight transfer/rotation zealots!!
@varkala I think legato should not be dismissed and always substituted for the pedal. In times where one hand needs to play staccato and one hand needs to play legato, it's necessary not to use pedal. In my opinion, the pedal is overused. I'm a bad example of this myself. I constantly have the damper down because I can't find the patience to connect difficult turns or passes when playing arpeggios or passages. Not only that, I find it uncomfortable to pass the thumb under the 4th or 5th finger.
@varkala All that said, I think Legato WITHOUT pedal has it's places. I was wrong before, legato WITH pedal vs. non-legato WITH pedal ARE the same thing, essentially. But... legato WITH vs. legato WITHOUT pedal is different. The faster you go with pedal held down, the mushier it sounds. Think about it, pedal holds ALL notes played until you release the damper, so notes still vibrate for a long time. legato only lets the notes vibrate as long as you hold that note down. I think you know this. :)
@varkala Though, I'm still under the belief that this study was designed to stretch the fingers and to use suppleness in the wrist to achieve a smooth motion up and down the arpeggios. For someone with small hands it might be very difficult, but it's said that Chopin had small hands himself (a 9th comfortably on his pleyel which has narrower keys than modern keyboards).
@varkala Then again, you could argue this study wasn't designed for flexibility, subtleness and/or stretching of the fingers, though the sheets do say legato, so I can only assume that in a literal sense, pedal doesn't automatically substitute for a legato passage, regardless of whether the legato effect an illusion or not. All that said, I'm not criticizing your method, I'd just like to share my thoughts on that. I could be wrong. :D
@varkala Also, what are your thoughts on playing double thirds legato? It's impossible to connect them ascending (RH) unless you turn the wrist and (very awkwardly) pass the 3rd finger over the 5th finger. Thanks. :)
@440HertzPiano You are absolutely correct in my view. In Op10 No2 and the double third study it is possible ONLY if the wrist is turned the way you describe. (Many early writes discussed this method of holdng the hands). And it is certainly very awkward if you are using the Czerny method of moving the fingers, i.e. up and down/stop start. Try Bach's method- circular with the finger tips moving over the keys grasping towards the palm. This basic method can be adapted to mezzo-stacc and legato.
@varkala In Op. 10 No. 2 I feel comfortable turning the wrist away from me slightly. Though with the double thirds it's a different story. I can turn my wrist 45 degrees and it's still uncomfortable to play true legato. Even then, it's a false legato because only one note of the third is held while the other note is released. Same with legato octaves, you can't hold a C octave AND play a C# octave with your right hand, so you must create an 'illusion' of legato by holding only the upper note. :)
@thrillscience Hello- thanks for the comment. The movement is not an active rotation. The arm movements and wrist adjustments bring the 4th and 5th fingers (and also the thumb) into alignment so they are able to play using their inherent power- with no active arm participation. (hopefully)
I very much like your mechanism. Your fingers dangle from your hand like the undercarriage of a wasp, and it's a nice natural arm movement. I will try to experiment with this to assimilate into my own technique. I am curious in what ways different effects or sounds you might want to achieve may vary the way your hand moves or is positioned? Or do you play all music with this same essential mechanical idea?
@charlesleseau In a way yes- the essential idea is as Bach is reported to have played- the tips of the fingers gliding over the keys towards the palm. When the fingers are moving freely then arm movements can be introduced, but I dislike the term armweight as it sounds so dead and lethargic. But 1st most important to sort out the fingers and thumbs. Look up originalwriting . ie for my book New Dynamic Finger Power- it's just been published and goes into detail re the finger technique. RH
@TheXPV At 45 seconds you can hear Ashkenazy NOT playing legato. Richter takes it rather slowly. Argerich is magnificent the most remarkable thing being how every note is like a bell. Busoni and Kentner talked about the fallacy of legato. Why employ it when you can imply it? Of course i detached it to demonstrate my point and used almost no pedal. But at 2.11 it is pedalled and at 2.19 not- but then only to show how fast it can be done. Try not to come across as an arrogant prick next time.
Mhhh...I think your video is really helpful....but It's so difficult to use this technique in chromatic scale... I tried to use this technique in the chopin piece ' Fantasie Impromptu Op.66' , it sounds alright....the only thing is the chromatic scale part.....it hurts my nails when I tried to play it fast by this technique...coz the concert grand is so heavy.....don't know if you have any suggestion or make a video to explain it would be really kind of you ;D
Thanks for the excellent tips. I took lessons years ago and even got a degree in music, but haven't had a lot of time for the piano for years. Recently I thought I would revisit this piece, which I started up way back, but then promptly gave up on it. Your comments about flicking fingers and keeping the hand curved is exactly what I learned once in a master class. I've applied it the last few days to this piece and have made more progress in 2 days than I had in about 2 months. Thanks!
@coryjor Glad it's of help. I'm interested in who gave the masterclass you mention. There is so much rubbish talked these days about weight transfer and rotation that life has become very complicated for pianists. Fingers are being ignored and I wonder if it is some sort of conspiracy!! Did you see youtube com/watch?v=s3yaGYyqCnM It will indicate where I'm coming from. Regards, Roy
@varkala By the masterclass I only meant a lesson I had once with a professor at Utah State U., Gary Amano, very good teacher. At any rate, I had nearly forgotten his advice about not stretching, but watching your video and applying the technique has made all the difference with this piece, AND my hands and arms are not sore afterwards! BTW, saw the other youtube vid. as well, very good instruction.
THANKYOU SO MUCH, no wonder I had such a hard time, I always thought this was impossible for me to play since I had small hands and couldn't reach the 11th note stretches, but with the technique you showed, it's a lot easier and sounds cleaner now!
Another thing, maybe not incidental, is that I recall during a music lesson about 10 years ago, playing a "final rendition" of a piece that required a lot of motion up and down the keyboard (a new thing for me as I usually stay in the middle), and a distinct feeling that I had bands around my upper arms that kept me from extending my arms laterally, freely. and I had to work to extend my arms. At the time I thought it was due to nerves, but maybe I just do not know how to stretch my arms?? lol
@katiush65 Not sure if I understand what's going on.... Do you play with elbows sticking out away from your torso? If so, let them remain at side and when extending don't lead with the arms or elbows. OR, extend arms straight out in front of you, swing them apart (45 degrees each) bend the elbows returning them to touch the torso- now return the forearms so they are in front of you. Elbow angle's c.90 degrees- increase THIS angle when extending, NOT the angle the upper arm makes with shoulder.
@varkala thank you for your reply, to my surprise (!) I realized I do extend my elbows away from my side, in order to keep my hand and forearm in a straight line. (I work at a computer keyboard all day and try to keep lateral wrist motion to a minimum to avoid stress)
hi varkala, I had posted a question earlier around December as "cefinow" but now (within the past week) having a go at this. My problem is a pain in the outside of my right arm, just above the elbow, that develops after I play certain passages, oh about 100 times!! is this just normal (& stupid) overuse when arm is not conditioned, and I have jumped into over-enthusiastic practice? I am playing "moribundissimo" so my arm is outstretched rightward a lot! Hand feels fine. Thanks 4 any suggestions
Thanks for the message- yes I do repeat the left hand thumb in several measures, not sure how many. This is because as the right hand is already far down the piano keyboard, I can avoid the further stretch in getting the right thumb on the C
@varkala Mmm, that's what I thought, so I'm still confused. What's the point of fingering an etude to make it easier to play? Surely then it stops being an etude?
Btw, I really liked your vids on Piano Technique (A and B) - thanks for posting them.
@youchooooooob Can I reverse your question?- what's the point of fingering an etude to make it difficult to play? There have been many different editions by different editors over the years- they all differ in fingering-are you saying they are invalid? Presumably those editors chose their fingering to make the piece easier- not harder? Or were they all sadists? LOL Whatever floats your boat............................
@varkala OK, but surely an etude is (usually) specifically composed to develop a particular skill, rather than to be played for its own muiscal merit. While there may have been several editions, I'm guessing most of them are like my copy which develops accuracy, and hand stretching (a real hand workout). The fingerings may not be the easiest but that's not the point. Finding an easier way seems to miss the point, it's like taking a jack with you to the gym to make lifting weights easier?
@youchooooooob You restrict the meaning of etude- Chopin's cannot be restricted to a mere physical action, anymore than any other artistic composition. You do 'Art' a disservice. Have you never heard of the expression- ease of art? That's what applies here. If you choose to compare piano playing with a gym work out, you are not 'at the races' if you'll excuse the mixed metaphors.
@varkala There are elements of playing any instrument which are concerned with anatomic mechanics, and these I think are entirely comparable with a gym work out: developing flexibility, endurance, accuracy (of touch for example). You do me a disservice to suggest that I would restrict Chopin's etude to "mere physical action", I do believe however that this is it's primary concern, over other facets - such as musicality, emotional content etc. Perhaps we can agree to disagree :o)
@youchooooooob Your first line is right- it's called technique. But any comparison with gym work outs must be with ref. to technique only. That is, the easiest way to do it without hurting yourself. After a gym work out, one feels tired and perhaps even sore. After playing the piano that should never happen. If it does a new technique is necessary. It seems to me you have been brought up, like I was, to believe piano playing is difficult. It's difficult to discard this, I know...
Thank you for uploading. Arpeggios have always been my weakness. My right hand feels like a carthorse in a hackney show. There are so many Chopin pieces I automatically consider out of reach, literally, and it makes me sad. Maybe a lot of it is psychological, I have always been intimidated by arpeggios since I can remember. Your tutorial makes me want to start over and try them again! thanks...
@cefinow actually after getting my book of etudes down from the attic, i think some bach 2-part inventions are just the thing for me now, chopin maybe later, but thanks for the inspiration!
@cefinow I wish you good luck and a Happy New Year of discovery at the keyboard. re the carthorse feeling you have, can you balance the arm at the shoulder, so that it is able to float or undulate? The finger action as I describe in anorther clip can then come efficiently into play.
The most convincing sounds I hear is are those like at 2.00 in, when you play with a perfect legato. The willfully detached wide intervals often sound much less refined and much less even. I think it's a good idea to practise this detached, but I think it's equally important to practise it with as much legato as possible (without resort to contortion). I've found that the true legato has made a huge difference to my speed and accuracy and has served to keep my whole arm comfortably balanced.
@cziffra1980 But in the demonstrations I'm not trying to play legato, or perfect legato, neither am I trying to give a refined finished performance. I am exposing the underbelly of the approach as can be heard in the following clip by Cortot at 1.36.........
Here his pedalling slip shows how he achieves the effect. The NON-LEGATO accompaniment can be heard clearly, if briefly. Why employ legato when you can imply it? 'True legato' has a religious ring about it which I find disquieting
@varkala True legato makes it easier. By "true legato" I mean legato where there is a constant level of support for the arm (not of its full weight but some of it). If the arm becomes entirely unsupported, the muscles have to work harder to stabilise the wrist and elbow etc. That's why full staccato is more tiring. When you go fast, tiny gaps may not result in loss. But if you practise with big ones, will they be tiny enough gaps? I doubt it. I think it's vital to practise both ways, to be sure.
@varkala Personally, I'd turn your question around and say "why lose the comfortable support of the keybed under the fingers between notes and merely try to imply legato"? I don't see legato as being a hindrance but rather a very useful aid to ease of movement. In theory you could play every note of a nocturne pizicatto, with the argument you give. But it would definitely affect both the sound and ease of control. I don't think legato should be abandoned too casually. It has consequences.
@varkala I appreciate that you're not presenting this as a finished performance, but the places where you make mistakes seem intrinsically linked to your insistence that legato doesn't matter. It's when your arm is not being supported between notes that you seem to go wrong the most. I think there is much value in aspects of the advice, but I really dispute that legato can be casually deemed unnecessary. I find legato practise extremely useful for even stacato passages, as well as vice versa.
@varkala To summarise that in the simplest way, if you're capable of playing with BOTH the big gaps of staccato and with no gaps at all, you are in a position where you can choose to play however you want. If you are only accustomed to taking major gaps you may not be able to change to the small gaps that are needed at high speeds. If you are capable of no gaps at all, it's very easier to switch that to tiny gaps at high speeds. To ignore legato from the start is to lose that vital preparation.
@BazzaSaysHi You mean you actually kept listening that long? You must be the first, because nobody else has remarked on it! But it was really "oh bollops"- I would never be so crude! LOL
I've been playing this etude since about twelve .I thought trying diff accents was a way of practicing.The "nonjoining" is brilliant sound if arm moves well.The fingers know da keys.I'm amzed it did not occur to me before. Pianists have always said op.10 #1 was easy I see why if you don't stretch.the trick is to have the smaller pattern g-c-e-c in hand the repositioning comes with arm.I have tried this etude in all major keys awkward in places.op.25#12 seems to be similar in some ways.
I'm delighted it has been of help, and I appreciate your telling me so. I I must say I have never found op10 no.1 easy, but this technique certainly has helped.(It is based on the technique of Bach and the early keyboardists/pianists- you will find it in the early chapters of Reginald Gerig's book- Famous pianists and their technique, which I can't recommend highly enough)
Be careful when you hear the phrase 'physical legato is necessary' (a la Fraser). Is an aural legato not the aim? Roy
@varkala Apologies for being squarely honest, but the faster you go, the more audible the places where you advise non-legato become, regardless of pedal. It may not be possible to play true legato at speed, but the closer you are, the more naturally the slightest gaps can be hidden within the texture. The more you intend to hop, the bigger the gaps will be and the more noticeable they will be. Even if everything else is slightly non-legato too, you can still hear the most effort in bigger jumps.
I would like to believe you, but when you are playing at faster tempo you slip a little. For muscle memory this sort of way to play it makes it at least 10x harder to play it accurately, maybe even more. So may I ask you to post a video of you playing this at 176 tempo to just to prove that this different technique can also work properly? When you are unsure about your technique you start to compare different techniques on how they feel in your arms and how well the people play them. Prove us!
@Aul1kki Yer, it's one thing teaching a technique at 1/4 tempo, but if you're making mistakes even at this speed every 4 bars I'm questioning whether this would actually work. Show us at 176.
Very helpful and interesting. Will you be posting tutorials on any of the other Chopin studies? I am particularly interested in Chopin's op. 25 no. 12 Ocean etude.
Roy: Please email me on my personal email which is shown on my facebook site. I have emailed you myself but am unsure if it got through to you. Thanks. ... Gerard.
So opus 10 no. 1 is about the freedom of the right elbow moving up and down the keyboard. It is not about the stretch of the right hand. It is not about strict legato in the sense of removing every little physical discontinuity between the fingers.
Yes regarding trying not to stretch the hand which is tiring(for me anyway); I'm not sure about the elbow moving however. If you hold the elbows out I would urge you to reconsider - e.g doing a gliss the whole length of the piano should feel as if you are ironing it! What about the angle of the hand? Imagine a violinist's bowing arm- the angle the hand makes with the is flexible and changes with distance. I can go into this more fully later if you wish......
Extremely interesting tutorial and two previous comments. Food for thought. Legato slurs are about effect and there can sometimes be finger discontinuities. Legato of TONE - matching tones. Chopin Valse in C# minor opus 64 no. 2 where the runny bit comes low make a break so that hand can reposition. Am I making sense? A concert pianist told me this in response to my question as to how to play this particular bar. In other words forget about finger legato in this particular spot.
Thanks for the comment. I agree with the advice you were given- but if it is acceptable in a particular place, why not all the time? In fast passages I feel the important thing is not to join but get off the key as quickly as possible. You say 'there can sometimes be finger discontinuities' But as long as the ear HEARS it as legato it follows there can ALWAYS be finger discontinuities!! I'll answer other comments, if from you separately. Best wishes....
Makes good sense, & prevents permanent disablement! Chopin himself used 'legato' and 'legatissimo' indications frequently, but maybe he referred more to the effect rather than rigorous joining. But what about rotation? By this means, one can achieve a quasi legato of rapid scales with minimal finger movement.
Thanks for the feedback. I have come to believe that rotation is a 2 edged sword! Taken to extremes like Breithaupt did, fingers can become totally redundant. I went there- my Bach, Mozart became gross, heavy and thick with no brilliance in the sound. Therefore I am reluctant to use or teach it. Pls advise if this reaches you.
It's the hand that is creating the power and movement not the fingers so the smooth opening and closing is surely the point.
stockcar5472 1 week ago
@stockcar5472 I don't know what you mean when you say the hand creates power. What power does the hand create relevant a succession of notes in a scale for example. If what you say is true when why did God give us 4 fingers and a thumb- I prefer to use 10 digits (or instruments) when playing the piano. Are you really happy to use only two (hands)?
varkala 1 week ago
@varkala I meant movement. There is obviously finger power or else no notes! I am really talking about the expansion and contraction of the hand up and down the keyboard being smooth and an evenly held wrist which gives the necessary relaxation in the fingers. Does this technique work without pedal?
stockcar5472 1 week ago
@stockcar5472 Of course it works without pedal. The withdrawing of the finger from the key, towards the palm, circular non-stop movement, which is the Bach method, as opposed to the up/down/stop/start of Czerny means that this type of finger movement can be timed to be stacc. mezzo-stacc or legato, or any variation in between. It's the same qualitative movement, just a matter of degree. The problem with 'an evenly held wrist' is it doesn't take into account the different finger lengths.
varkala 1 week ago
@stockcar5472 You will not read about this in text books except the briefest of references- this is because the Czerny method won the war!! The problem being, like Iraq, it created more problems, e.g. high finger technique resulting in carpal tunnel etc, which then led to the weight transfer/rotation methods. The Bach method used the inherent grasping power of the finger; the Czerny and subsequent developments require active arm participation- even the finger supporting the wright of the arm.
varkala 1 week ago
Comment removed
stockcar5472 1 week ago
You can't play legato on the piano truly - when the note is struck it dies away even with the pedal down.The 'sustain' pedal helps to lengthen the note - ie keep the dampers off. Therefore, all that remains once the pedal is down is to strike the notes - the fact that it is legato is irrelevant. It won't enhance the length or the joining of notes except in technique - ie for the pianist's technique it is easier to play with an even tone rather than staccato when playing with the pedal.
stockcar5472 1 week ago
@stockcar5472 I agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't understand what you mean by 'even tone rather than staccato'. And if you mean it is easier to play legato rather than staccato, I disagree; it certainly isn't easier at 176 quarters to the minute.
varkala 1 week ago
Perhaps the purpose is to be able to play it as fast as possible without getting tired. Stretching is one step removed from simply reaching and certainly there is reaching done by the 5th finger and thumb- which involves opening and closing of the hand, but stretching sounds a bit like as work out, and work outs are always tiring. So I completely disagree with you on the purpose of the study. Passive stretching can help extend your reach, but I feel it's best to do that away from the keyboard.
varkala 1 month ago
i thought the purpose of this study was to teach you right hand stretches, that wont happen if you use that stoccato flick technique? will it? im confused :s
guycrosswell 1 month ago
Yes but you are using the weight of the arm in the full playing of it. Either this guy doesn't notice that he's actually using the weight of the arm and has a weird erroneous perception that he's 'just' 'flicking' his fingers, or else he's being purposely disingenuous.
noonesflower 3 months ago
@noonesflower Can you take nothing at face value? It's arm MOVEMENT which is necessary, but if I am saying I am not using the weight of the arm can you not accept that?
What purpose would SAYING I am not using arm weight serve, if I am doing so?
Why would i purposely try to mislead people?
Perhaps it is you who purposely and purposefully misunderstand!!
varkala 3 months ago
@varkala Very interesting and unique method! I do have a few questions though. Isn't the study of this etude to develop a stretch to reach the large intervals between the 2/3, 3/4 and 4/5 fingers? Also, playing staccato with pedal gives a completely different color than playing legato with pedal. Pedal gives an illusion of legato, though it's not true legato. Anyone with a good ear can easily differentiate legato and staccato if the pedal is continuously held down. Just a few thoughts. :D
440HertzPiano 1 week ago
@440HertzPiano Further to the other 2 posts- at 176 the fast recurrence of the BEGINNINGS of the tones allows no time to wonder about the ENDS of them! I only quote good authority when I say legato is an illusion. One hears so much about 'physical' or 'true' legato confusing rubbish......I prefer to think of each note as a bell and the finger as the clapper- no way does the clapper STICK to the bell. And most important- using the finger method of BACH, and not CZERNY etc....is EASY! Best, Roy
varkala 1 week ago
@440HertzPiano I checked your page and listened to Geet Dehoux playing Op10 No1- he bravely takes the pedal off at times and it certainly is not legato in the 'physical' or 'true' sense. Are we expected to believe he is doing something different technically when he has the pedal down? I think not. Listen to Cortot Op25 No1- he lifts the pedal quite near the end (perhaps a mistake) - again it is not legato, but mezzo staccato. Cheers, Roy
varkala 1 week ago
@varkala Though I must say, I do like the color that you get from playing staccato or mezzo staccato with the pedal held down, though if I were to play the piece this way for a piano competition or audition, I doubt the judges would take it seriously. Interesting method though, I always like new creative ideas. I do kinda get sick of the way people always play things EXACTLY the same, and I have no doubt this method might be more suitable for those with smaller hands. I like it. Kudos! :D
440HertzPiano 1 week ago
@440HertzPiano When all's said and done it's all about the sound or color. If you play Op10 No1 at quarter=176 the judges can only be impressed- if you have clarity in EVERY note even more impressed. 176 means 12 events per second. The question is how valid is the holding of one key until the next one is played when things are happening so fast.
varkala 1 week ago
@440HertzPiano Busoni and Louis Kentner talk about the illusion of legato- and that is exactly what it is- the piano is built in such a way as not to permit legato in the singing sense- the mark of a great artist according to Kentner is how well this fact is disguised. I have listened to performances of 'true' legato and very often every note is not played with clarity, and the pedal provides a wash of sound to disguise this. R
varkala 1 week ago
@varkala Very good points. I remember reading something in which Chopin quoted something along the lines of "the human brain cannot differentiate legato when playing a fast scale or arpeggio" I assume he was talking about thumb-over. In a very fast scale or (more so) an arpeggio it's impossible to tuck the thumb under, there is a small but noticeable silence where the thumb would usually tuck under to bridge the notes (legato). For this, it's acceptable to use pedal.
440HertzPiano 1 week ago
@440HertzPiano I am delighted to read that quote; it supports my point of view!! The silence I think becomes less noticeable at increasing speeds. Your comment re thumb OVER tells me you know a thing or two, but you will incur the wrath of youtubers if you publicise it! I'm convinced things went awry when Czerny contradicted the finger movements of earlier keyboardists. (See my book New Dynamic Finger Power) I'm used to the same sort of criticism by weight transfer/rotation zealots!!
varkala 1 week ago
@varkala I think legato should not be dismissed and always substituted for the pedal. In times where one hand needs to play staccato and one hand needs to play legato, it's necessary not to use pedal. In my opinion, the pedal is overused. I'm a bad example of this myself. I constantly have the damper down because I can't find the patience to connect difficult turns or passes when playing arpeggios or passages. Not only that, I find it uncomfortable to pass the thumb under the 4th or 5th finger.
440HertzPiano 1 week ago
@varkala All that said, I think Legato WITHOUT pedal has it's places. I was wrong before, legato WITH pedal vs. non-legato WITH pedal ARE the same thing, essentially. But... legato WITH vs. legato WITHOUT pedal is different. The faster you go with pedal held down, the mushier it sounds. Think about it, pedal holds ALL notes played until you release the damper, so notes still vibrate for a long time. legato only lets the notes vibrate as long as you hold that note down. I think you know this. :)
440HertzPiano 1 week ago
@varkala Though, I'm still under the belief that this study was designed to stretch the fingers and to use suppleness in the wrist to achieve a smooth motion up and down the arpeggios. For someone with small hands it might be very difficult, but it's said that Chopin had small hands himself (a 9th comfortably on his pleyel which has narrower keys than modern keyboards).
440HertzPiano 1 week ago
@varkala Then again, you could argue this study wasn't designed for flexibility, subtleness and/or stretching of the fingers, though the sheets do say legato, so I can only assume that in a literal sense, pedal doesn't automatically substitute for a legato passage, regardless of whether the legato effect an illusion or not. All that said, I'm not criticizing your method, I'd just like to share my thoughts on that. I could be wrong. :D
440HertzPiano 1 week ago
@varkala Also, what are your thoughts on playing double thirds legato? It's impossible to connect them ascending (RH) unless you turn the wrist and (very awkwardly) pass the 3rd finger over the 5th finger. Thanks. :)
440HertzPiano 1 week ago
@440HertzPiano You are absolutely correct in my view. In Op10 No2 and the double third study it is possible ONLY if the wrist is turned the way you describe. (Many early writes discussed this method of holdng the hands). And it is certainly very awkward if you are using the Czerny method of moving the fingers, i.e. up and down/stop start. Try Bach's method- circular with the finger tips moving over the keys grasping towards the palm. This basic method can be adapted to mezzo-stacc and legato.
varkala 1 week ago
@varkala In Op. 10 No. 2 I feel comfortable turning the wrist away from me slightly. Though with the double thirds it's a different story. I can turn my wrist 45 degrees and it's still uncomfortable to play true legato. Even then, it's a false legato because only one note of the third is held while the other note is released. Same with legato octaves, you can't hold a C octave AND play a C# octave with your right hand, so you must create an 'illusion' of legato by holding only the upper note. :)
440HertzPiano 1 week ago
You have "rotation" even though you didn't mention it. Is that a conscious part of your technique?
thrillscience 4 months ago
@thrillscience Hello- thanks for the comment. The movement is not an active rotation. The arm movements and wrist adjustments bring the 4th and 5th fingers (and also the thumb) into alignment so they are able to play using their inherent power- with no active arm participation. (hopefully)
varkala 4 months ago
I very much like your mechanism. Your fingers dangle from your hand like the undercarriage of a wasp, and it's a nice natural arm movement. I will try to experiment with this to assimilate into my own technique. I am curious in what ways different effects or sounds you might want to achieve may vary the way your hand moves or is positioned? Or do you play all music with this same essential mechanical idea?
charlesleseau 7 months ago
@charlesleseau In a way yes- the essential idea is as Bach is reported to have played- the tips of the fingers gliding over the keys towards the palm. When the fingers are moving freely then arm movements can be introduced, but I dislike the term armweight as it sounds so dead and lethargic. But 1st most important to sort out the fingers and thumbs. Look up originalwriting . ie for my book New Dynamic Finger Power- it's just been published and goes into detail re the finger technique. RH
varkala 5 months ago
@varkala Thank you for the explanation, Roy. I will consider purchasing your book; it sounds fascinating.
charlesleseau 5 months ago
'oh bollocks' made me laugh so much.
mooobtube 7 months ago
youtube.com/watch?v=s3yaGYyqCnM
Watch this instead
varkala 8 months ago
???? souds staccato to me. pedal must not be an artifice...
by playing it like this you lose all the technique this study as to offer.
listen to argerich, richter or ashkenazy, they all have a perfect legato!!!!
to everyone: work hard as it was written by Chopin, dont get frustrated, speed and accuracy will come with time and you will be rewarded.
TheXPV 8 months ago
@TheXPV At 45 seconds you can hear Ashkenazy NOT playing legato. Richter takes it rather slowly. Argerich is magnificent the most remarkable thing being how every note is like a bell. Busoni and Kentner talked about the fallacy of legato. Why employ it when you can imply it? Of course i detached it to demonstrate my point and used almost no pedal. But at 2.11 it is pedalled and at 2.19 not- but then only to show how fast it can be done. Try not to come across as an arrogant prick next time.
varkala 8 months ago
@varkala after seeing the last line of the comment, you tarnish your own reputation to a point that i can no longer watch the video.
Pianoguy32 8 months ago
Mhhh...I think your video is really helpful....but It's so difficult to use this technique in chromatic scale... I tried to use this technique in the chopin piece ' Fantasie Impromptu Op.66' , it sounds alright....the only thing is the chromatic scale part.....it hurts my nails when I tried to play it fast by this technique...coz the concert grand is so heavy.....don't know if you have any suggestion or make a video to explain it would be really kind of you ;D
Thomaschungtszhei 1 year ago
Thanks for the excellent tips. I took lessons years ago and even got a degree in music, but haven't had a lot of time for the piano for years. Recently I thought I would revisit this piece, which I started up way back, but then promptly gave up on it. Your comments about flicking fingers and keeping the hand curved is exactly what I learned once in a master class. I've applied it the last few days to this piece and have made more progress in 2 days than I had in about 2 months. Thanks!
coryjor 1 year ago
@coryjor Glad it's of help. I'm interested in who gave the masterclass you mention. There is so much rubbish talked these days about weight transfer and rotation that life has become very complicated for pianists. Fingers are being ignored and I wonder if it is some sort of conspiracy!! Did you see youtube com/watch?v=s3yaGYyqCnM It will indicate where I'm coming from. Regards, Roy
varkala 1 year ago
@varkala By the masterclass I only meant a lesson I had once with a professor at Utah State U., Gary Amano, very good teacher. At any rate, I had nearly forgotten his advice about not stretching, but watching your video and applying the technique has made all the difference with this piece, AND my hands and arms are not sore afterwards! BTW, saw the other youtube vid. as well, very good instruction.
coryjor 1 year ago
THANKYOU SO MUCH, no wonder I had such a hard time, I always thought this was impossible for me to play since I had small hands and couldn't reach the 11th note stretches, but with the technique you showed, it's a lot easier and sounds cleaner now!
svensuperman789 1 year ago
Another thing, maybe not incidental, is that I recall during a music lesson about 10 years ago, playing a "final rendition" of a piece that required a lot of motion up and down the keyboard (a new thing for me as I usually stay in the middle), and a distinct feeling that I had bands around my upper arms that kept me from extending my arms laterally, freely. and I had to work to extend my arms. At the time I thought it was due to nerves, but maybe I just do not know how to stretch my arms?? lol
katiush65 1 year ago
@katiush65 Not sure if I understand what's going on.... Do you play with elbows sticking out away from your torso? If so, let them remain at side and when extending don't lead with the arms or elbows. OR, extend arms straight out in front of you, swing them apart (45 degrees each) bend the elbows returning them to touch the torso- now return the forearms so they are in front of you. Elbow angle's c.90 degrees- increase THIS angle when extending, NOT the angle the upper arm makes with shoulder.
varkala 1 year ago
@varkala thank you for your reply, to my surprise (!) I realized I do extend my elbows away from my side, in order to keep my hand and forearm in a straight line. (I work at a computer keyboard all day and try to keep lateral wrist motion to a minimum to avoid stress)
katiush65 1 year ago
hi varkala, I had posted a question earlier around December as "cefinow" but now (within the past week) having a go at this. My problem is a pain in the outside of my right arm, just above the elbow, that develops after I play certain passages, oh about 100 times!! is this just normal (& stupid) overuse when arm is not conditioned, and I have jumped into over-enthusiastic practice? I am playing "moribundissimo" so my arm is outstretched rightward a lot! Hand feels fine. Thanks 4 any suggestions
katiush65 1 year ago
lol, his Irish accent makes his tutorial twice as interesting. I started this piece 3 days ago, hopefully I can makes some progress within the year
lonewolf604 1 year ago
Nope, still sounds stoccato even with the pedal.
MoonMankkkkkk 1 year ago
Thanks for the post Roy - and your other videos on technique.
But I'm a little confused with this one. After the LH octave, are you playing LH thumb on the C, and then a series of "G-C-E-C" in the RH ?
youchooooooob 1 year ago
@youchooooooob
Thanks for the message- yes I do repeat the left hand thumb in several measures, not sure how many. This is because as the right hand is already far down the piano keyboard, I can avoid the further stretch in getting the right thumb on the C
varkala 1 year ago
@varkala Mmm, that's what I thought, so I'm still confused. What's the point of fingering an etude to make it easier to play? Surely then it stops being an etude?
Btw, I really liked your vids on Piano Technique (A and B) - thanks for posting them.
youchooooooob 1 year ago
@youchooooooob Can I reverse your question?- what's the point of fingering an etude to make it difficult to play? There have been many different editions by different editors over the years- they all differ in fingering-are you saying they are invalid? Presumably those editors chose their fingering to make the piece easier- not harder? Or were they all sadists? LOL Whatever floats your boat............................
varkala 1 year ago
@varkala OK, but surely an etude is (usually) specifically composed to develop a particular skill, rather than to be played for its own muiscal merit. While there may have been several editions, I'm guessing most of them are like my copy which develops accuracy, and hand stretching (a real hand workout). The fingerings may not be the easiest but that's not the point. Finding an easier way seems to miss the point, it's like taking a jack with you to the gym to make lifting weights easier?
youchooooooob 1 year ago
@youchooooooob You restrict the meaning of etude- Chopin's cannot be restricted to a mere physical action, anymore than any other artistic composition. You do 'Art' a disservice. Have you never heard of the expression- ease of art? That's what applies here. If you choose to compare piano playing with a gym work out, you are not 'at the races' if you'll excuse the mixed metaphors.
varkala 1 year ago
@varkala There are elements of playing any instrument which are concerned with anatomic mechanics, and these I think are entirely comparable with a gym work out: developing flexibility, endurance, accuracy (of touch for example). You do me a disservice to suggest that I would restrict Chopin's etude to "mere physical action", I do believe however that this is it's primary concern, over other facets - such as musicality, emotional content etc. Perhaps we can agree to disagree :o)
youchooooooob 1 year ago
@youchooooooob Your first line is right- it's called technique. But any comparison with gym work outs must be with ref. to technique only. That is, the easiest way to do it without hurting yourself. After a gym work out, one feels tired and perhaps even sore. After playing the piano that should never happen. If it does a new technique is necessary. It seems to me you have been brought up, like I was, to believe piano playing is difficult. It's difficult to discard this, I know...
varkala 1 year ago
@varkala Thanks for clearing that up - "technique" - I'll make a note of that. I still think you're wrong :o)
youchooooooob 1 year ago
Thank you for uploading. Arpeggios have always been my weakness. My right hand feels like a carthorse in a hackney show. There are so many Chopin pieces I automatically consider out of reach, literally, and it makes me sad. Maybe a lot of it is psychological, I have always been intimidated by arpeggios since I can remember. Your tutorial makes me want to start over and try them again! thanks...
cefinow 1 year ago
@cefinow actually after getting my book of etudes down from the attic, i think some bach 2-part inventions are just the thing for me now, chopin maybe later, but thanks for the inspiration!
cefinow 1 year ago
@cefinow I wish you good luck and a Happy New Year of discovery at the keyboard. re the carthorse feeling you have, can you balance the arm at the shoulder, so that it is able to float or undulate? The finger action as I describe in anorther clip can then come efficiently into play.
varkala 1 year ago
The most convincing sounds I hear is are those like at 2.00 in, when you play with a perfect legato. The willfully detached wide intervals often sound much less refined and much less even. I think it's a good idea to practise this detached, but I think it's equally important to practise it with as much legato as possible (without resort to contortion). I've found that the true legato has made a huge difference to my speed and accuracy and has served to keep my whole arm comfortably balanced.
cziffra1980 1 year ago
@cziffra1980 But in the demonstrations I'm not trying to play legato, or perfect legato, neither am I trying to give a refined finished performance. I am exposing the underbelly of the approach as can be heard in the following clip by Cortot at 1.36.........
Here his pedalling slip shows how he achieves the effect. The NON-LEGATO accompaniment can be heard clearly, if briefly. Why employ legato when you can imply it? 'True legato' has a religious ring about it which I find disquieting
varkala 1 year ago
@varkala True legato makes it easier. By "true legato" I mean legato where there is a constant level of support for the arm (not of its full weight but some of it). If the arm becomes entirely unsupported, the muscles have to work harder to stabilise the wrist and elbow etc. That's why full staccato is more tiring. When you go fast, tiny gaps may not result in loss. But if you practise with big ones, will they be tiny enough gaps? I doubt it. I think it's vital to practise both ways, to be sure.
cziffra1980 1 year ago
@varkala Personally, I'd turn your question around and say "why lose the comfortable support of the keybed under the fingers between notes and merely try to imply legato"? I don't see legato as being a hindrance but rather a very useful aid to ease of movement. In theory you could play every note of a nocturne pizicatto, with the argument you give. But it would definitely affect both the sound and ease of control. I don't think legato should be abandoned too casually. It has consequences.
cziffra1980 1 year ago
@varkala I appreciate that you're not presenting this as a finished performance, but the places where you make mistakes seem intrinsically linked to your insistence that legato doesn't matter. It's when your arm is not being supported between notes that you seem to go wrong the most. I think there is much value in aspects of the advice, but I really dispute that legato can be casually deemed unnecessary. I find legato practise extremely useful for even stacato passages, as well as vice versa.
cziffra1980 1 year ago
@varkala To summarise that in the simplest way, if you're capable of playing with BOTH the big gaps of staccato and with no gaps at all, you are in a position where you can choose to play however you want. If you are only accustomed to taking major gaps you may not be able to change to the small gaps that are needed at high speeds. If you are capable of no gaps at all, it's very easier to switch that to tiny gaps at high speeds. To ignore legato from the start is to lose that vital preparation.
cziffra1980 1 year ago
@cziffra1980 the Cortot clip being of the Etude Op.25 No.1 which you will find easily.
varkala 1 year ago
4:40 "Oh bollocks ". LOL.
BazzaSaysHi 1 year ago
@BazzaSaysHi You mean you actually kept listening that long? You must be the first, because nobody else has remarked on it! But it was really "oh bollops"- I would never be so crude! LOL
varkala 1 year ago
Roy, U the best, me LUV U!
futuregirlpianist 1 year ago
god you make it sound so beautiful!!! and your teaching makes so much sense!!! i want to go to your college
spooner1957 1 year ago
I've been playing this etude since about twelve .I thought trying diff accents was a way of practicing.The "nonjoining" is brilliant sound if arm moves well.The fingers know da keys.I'm amzed it did not occur to me before. Pianists have always said op.10 #1 was easy I see why if you don't stretch.the trick is to have the smaller pattern g-c-e-c in hand the repositioning comes with arm.I have tried this etude in all major keys awkward in places.op.25#12 seems to be similar in some ways.
lovesGenet 1 year ago
I'm delighted it has been of help, and I appreciate your telling me so. I I must say I have never found op10 no.1 easy, but this technique certainly has helped.(It is based on the technique of Bach and the early keyboardists/pianists- you will find it in the early chapters of Reginald Gerig's book- Famous pianists and their technique, which I can't recommend highly enough)
Be careful when you hear the phrase 'physical legato is necessary' (a la Fraser). Is an aural legato not the aim? Roy
varkala 1 year ago
@varkala Apologies for being squarely honest, but the faster you go, the more audible the places where you advise non-legato become, regardless of pedal. It may not be possible to play true legato at speed, but the closer you are, the more naturally the slightest gaps can be hidden within the texture. The more you intend to hop, the bigger the gaps will be and the more noticeable they will be. Even if everything else is slightly non-legato too, you can still hear the most effort in bigger jumps.
cziffra1980 1 year ago
I would like to believe you, but when you are playing at faster tempo you slip a little. For muscle memory this sort of way to play it makes it at least 10x harder to play it accurately, maybe even more. So may I ask you to post a video of you playing this at 176 tempo to just to prove that this different technique can also work properly? When you are unsure about your technique you start to compare different techniques on how they feel in your arms and how well the people play them. Prove us!
Aul1kki 1 year ago 7
@Aul1kki Yer, it's one thing teaching a technique at 1/4 tempo, but if you're making mistakes even at this speed every 4 bars I'm questioning whether this would actually work. Show us at 176.
somedood1 1 year ago
Very helpful and interesting. Will you be posting tutorials on any of the other Chopin studies? I am particularly interested in Chopin's op. 25 no. 12 Ocean etude.
Wakame44 1 year ago
Roy: Please email me on my personal email which is shown on my facebook site. I have emailed you myself but am unsure if it got through to you. Thanks. ... Gerard.
gerardbedecarter 1 year ago
So opus 10 no. 1 is about the freedom of the right elbow moving up and down the keyboard. It is not about the stretch of the right hand. It is not about strict legato in the sense of removing every little physical discontinuity between the fingers.
gerardbedecarter 1 year ago
@gerardbedecarter
Yes regarding trying not to stretch the hand which is tiring(for me anyway); I'm not sure about the elbow moving however. If you hold the elbows out I would urge you to reconsider - e.g doing a gliss the whole length of the piano should feel as if you are ironing it! What about the angle of the hand? Imagine a violinist's bowing arm- the angle the hand makes with the is flexible and changes with distance. I can go into this more fully later if you wish......
varkala 1 year ago
Extremely interesting tutorial and two previous comments. Food for thought. Legato slurs are about effect and there can sometimes be finger discontinuities. Legato of TONE - matching tones. Chopin Valse in C# minor opus 64 no. 2 where the runny bit comes low make a break so that hand can reposition. Am I making sense? A concert pianist told me this in response to my question as to how to play this particular bar. In other words forget about finger legato in this particular spot.
gerardbedecarter 1 year ago
@gerardbedecarter
Thanks for the comment. I agree with the advice you were given- but if it is acceptable in a particular place, why not all the time? In fast passages I feel the important thing is not to join but get off the key as quickly as possible. You say 'there can sometimes be finger discontinuities' But as long as the ear HEARS it as legato it follows there can ALWAYS be finger discontinuities!! I'll answer other comments, if from you separately. Best wishes....
varkala 1 year ago
Comment removed
AndyLovesTruth 2 years ago
thx
MusicoNato 2 years ago
You ROCK!!
HjalmarGuitarMaster 2 years ago
Makes good sense, & prevents permanent disablement! Chopin himself used 'legato' and 'legatissimo' indications frequently, but maybe he referred more to the effect rather than rigorous joining. But what about rotation? By this means, one can achieve a quasi legato of rapid scales with minimal finger movement.
Contrappunto 2 years ago
Thanks for the feedback. I have come to believe that rotation is a 2 edged sword! Taken to extremes like Breithaupt did, fingers can become totally redundant. I went there- my Bach, Mozart became gross, heavy and thick with no brilliance in the sound. Therefore I am reluctant to use or teach it. Pls advise if this reaches you.
varkala 2 years ago