My own opinion if you are not good enough person and youll die you will not go to Heaven but in purgatory..but those bad people the sinners will go directly to hell..
@thinzki44 Not exactly how it works. Eventually everyone ends up in heaven or hell. Purgatory is simply a "cleaning stage" before heaven, if you will, for people who are saved, but still have some imperfections. It lasts a while, and then the person moves on to heaven.
@SeptemberCatholic18 Purgatory is a silly myth, utterly pointless. Only a decidedly ignorant fool would believe that you spiritually park for some indeterminable amount of time in order to be "refurbished" ( by some indefinable process which no one can genuinely explain or describe), as though Christ's behavior on our collective behalf just wasn't quite sufficient.
@JeffersonDinedAlone I think the person who made this film explained the issue quite well using Holy Scripture to back it up. Jesus said "but he who calls you raca ..thou fool... is in danger of hellfire" Why are you insulting others in the name of Christ, Jesus? This isn't the example left to us by the Lord, Jesus.Your un-Christlike words and condescending attitude say alot about you. God bless you. I'll pray for you.
@bheadh Let's make a deal, you and I. Don't put words in my mouth, and I won't put words in yours. No one is insulting anyone here "in the name of Christ, Jesus", as you so ignorantly, and erroneously, put it. I can speak for myself far better than you could ever presume to speak for me, which is quite apparent already. If you wish to believe that you are destined to hover in vapor until you learn how to behave, then don't be surprised when you are considered to be an idiot for it.
Jesus said, "he who calls you raca, thou fool, is in danger of hellfire". This person did his best to explain his veiw with humility and reverence using Holy Scripture to back it up. ..."which no one can genuinly...or describe"...Sir, describe heaven for me!!?? "Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor the heart of man CONCEIVED, what God has PREPARED for those who love Him". Your condescending attitude and insulting rhetoric didn't "explain" nor answer anything either. Are you also a "fool"?
@bheadh No one can genuinely insult you unless you are insecure in your perspective. In this case, you would be insecure in whatever belief system you ascribe to. Your problem, certainly not mine.
Jesus who is God told John what happens to Christian saints when they die?
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying,“Write this down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on.Yes,says the Spirit, they are blessed indeed,FOR THEY WILL REST from their hard work;for their GOOD DEEDS follow them!”
FYI..that's GOOD DEEDS done while the Christian saints are still living,not in Purgatory..LOL
uh, speedy779, the sarcasm in the first line was for those protestants who like to spout off on how Catholics don't know Scripture.
that was it, for the sarcasm.
i own a Douay-Rheims; thank God for St. Jerome. what 'random stuff', are you chirping about? let's not have this devolve into 'catholic-on-catholic crime' because you refuse to ask some simple questions. in case you weren't able to follow what i said, let me break it down. the 'church' Christ talked of subsists in the Catholic church.
@damiangoddard Do to your bad sarcasm I am assuming that you are a Protestant who has no clue what he is talking about and bases his facts on nothing but opinion.
The Catholic Church is the Church that brought the Bible to you.
So maybe instead of saying random stuff based on nothing you should learn some facts.
Having been Greek Orthodox (but now Roman Catholic) the evidence for Purgatory is of course not explicit, but is represented in the fact that God's Grace and pressence is not absent from the condemned, but the other way around. Forgiveness through God's Grace also works through prayers for the dead, whereby, although the condemned in Hell are thought to be lost, the prayers may help those receive God's mercy. Purgatory is not a location but a condition like "hell" because of sin.
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love & mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife? He's a better Father than we are, right? He will still judge but He won't write people off forever.
1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
@2000deg The soul goes through purgatory while the body awaits the general resurrection. In the end, we will all receive our bodies back in a perfected, glorified state. Our souls, once fully sanctified, experience the presence of God until then.
@courag1 A Mass for someone doesn't cost any money, so that shows how much you know. We depict Christ on a cross to show what he did for us; that was his act of love for us. We CAN talk to Jesus and we do. Mary prays for us and with us as well, fulfilling Paul's call for all men to pray for all in 1 Timothy 2:1. I have a video defending Mary as the ark; watch that video before making arguments to me.
"When the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs." These coins robbed widows, the poor, thinking they were righteous by supporting their church. The pope who initiated this, Leo X real name was Medici. He funded the building of St. Peter's with the money he collected. Just Propaganda! Jesus fed the poor, Leo took the food off their plates. It was because of Leo that Martin Luther nailed the Diet of Worms to the door of the Rheims Cathedral.
@courag1 What you quoted is false and the Church has never taught that. Pope Leo X did not initiate paying for indulgences. Once again, and I can't stress this enough, it is against the Church to buy or sell an indulgence. That will get you excommunicated.
Yes, years ago there were abuses and people did buy and sell indulgences, but it was all against the Catholic Church. They were not following the true teachings. Pope Pius V declared all of those bought/sold indulgences invalid.
@SeptemberCatholic18 Well it is comforting that those who bought Indulgences can't come back and collect their money. What's to stop another pope when in debt from doing it again? This is why depending on Holy Scripture which isn't changed for whims or human corruption, to depend on Scripture. The church has many false teaching. The church put Tyndale to death who translated the Bible into English. But later on they came out with their own English translation. BTW, Tyndale was still dead. I
@courag1 How would you expect to Church to verify who had an indulgence sold to them versus who didn't? You're still not getting it. No pope EVER said it was okay to buy or sell indulgences. That was a crime committed by corrupt members within the Church against the teachings of the Church. Paul said to trust the Church which is the foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).
Tyndale was'nt a scholar and his translation was poor. The Church itself approved many other English translations around that time
@courag1 The Catholic Connection was correct, little difference between Catholicism and Islam, whether you call it lying or Al Taqqiya, it is all the same. The Great Harlot seated on 7 Hills. Tyndale used the original manuscripts coming West from the sacking of Byzantium. He didn't use the Latin Vulgate, nor did Wycliffe who the RCC killed too. One after another of martyrs. Tell me, was Leo X not Catholic? French Indian War a power grab to make money for a broke Rome from Medici extravagance.
@courag1 You are now accusing me of lying to your face and hating you secretly. I would say that is an unfair accusation. I made a two-part video series discussing why the Catholic Church cannot be the Harlot.
Once again, Tyndale was not a scholar and his translation was very poor. Over the years, he was made out to be more than he actually was. Wycliffe's translation included many errors and footnotes where he inserted his opinions.
Now you are just making crazy conspiracy theories.
Salvation in Catholicism is based upon itself, it is self-promoting and self-glorifying. The Commandments are abbreviated so that it removes the prohibition of idolatry so that the faithful don't know that bowing down to statues is forbidden.
Purgatory's purpose in my view is to frighten Catholics into being in church every Sunday, this is a good financial choice forgetting donations. The purpose of church is to have a relationship with Him via Jesus, but Mary is your intercessor.
Goodness of the individual can never be good enough to merit heaven that is why that the Bible teaches that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." You want to explain how buying Indulgences gets you straight out of purgatory. The Catholic Church taught that too, and also a flat earth and that the earth was the center of the universe. The scripture teaches to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
@courag1 Purgatory has nothing to do with justification; no one in purgatory is "earning" their way to heaven because they are already saved by Jesus Christ. Read 1 Corinthians 3:15.
The Church never taught that buying an indulgence got you out of purgatory. That was an abuse in the Church and the pope said all those sold indulgences were invalid.
The Church never taught the earth was flat or the center of the universe. It was a general consensus of some people, but never a teaching.
@SeptemberCatholic18 Popes are supposedly inerrant and yet we know they are human. What is scary is the anathemas against Protestants whose sole purpose in separating from the Catholic Church was over such as verse "For by Grace ye are saved, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." These "curses" are still on the books and are valid the same as for those for the Inquisition. We are taught by scripture to fear God, not man.
@courag1 Popes are only infallible when they definitively teach something regarding faith and morals, but that is a separate issue I am currently making a video on now. The "curses" are not curses, but rather excommunications. That means unless someone believes those points of faith, they are not part of the Church. That doesn't mean you are cursed or damned.
Catholics do not oppose Ephesians 2:8-9. We might even agree on doctrines; I'll need to get your exact position on that verse.
@courag1 You need to look up "anathema" in the online Catholic Encyclopedia to see how we use it. No one said popes cannot sin; they are not perfect. No one is ever charged for an indulgence. An excommunication is placed on anyone who buys or sells an indulgence. Salvation is based on Christ in the Church. No commandment was removed (the commandment against idolatry is our first). Purgatory is not meant to frighten, but to fulfill what 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 speaks of.
@courag1 The purpose of excommunication is so that the one so condemned would be damned to hell. Anathema means to be "accursed". Semantics is something to be studied as those who use these big words don't realize what they are saying. Popes have declared Protestants forever separated and therefore damned unless they reconcile to the RCC. The Church is who determines who is saved, not the faith of the individual in Jesus Christ as his savior. What man cannot do, God can and does.
@courag1 Absolutely wrong. Excommunications do not damn people to hell. It is a formal separation from the Church, much like what Peter did in 1 Timothy 1:20. It is meant to be rehabilitative rather than damning. The Church does not have the authority to save or damn; only Christ does. An anathema is the same thing.
The Church has never damned Protestants. In fact, if you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 817-819, it states that Protestants are Christian and can be saved.
@SeptemberCatholic18 CORRECTION: I meant to say Paul, not Peter. Also, if I may clarify on my last statement, although Protestants may be saved while not visibly in the Church, they are in much more danger in such a state. In the Catholic Church, you are closer to Christ and therefore more protected against Satan.
@SeptemberCatholic18 Look up the list of Sexually active Popes, those who had illegitimate children or gay lovers in their beds, even in the Vatican or that this history of the Church looking the other way about the sins it commits while running Inquisitions makes me sick. Charging poor people for indulgences to live in opulence promising them heaven for their purchase is sick. Perhaps you really need Purgatory so that Catholics are saved at all.
@shanana000 The Catholic Church does not make saints. Rather, Jesus makes all of his followers saints. The Catholic Church composes a canon containing saints who lived extraordinary lives in Christ which we can look up to. In other words, God does the work; the Church simply points it out and asks us to do similarly.
...people cannot pass from one to the other. Catholics defend purg. by quoting the uninspired 2Mac12:40-46 where a "sin offering" is offered for dead soldiers who had committed the sin of idolatry. THis not only contradicts the Bible, but also catholic teaching, because idolatry is a "mortal sin" that would confine a person to hell. An ex-nun said the only purgatory that exists is the priests' pockets.
Listen, we are PURGED OF OUR SINS ( not some, ALL ) by the blood of Jesus Christ. Heb1:3,Rom8:1 and John5:24. Remember "there is no more condemnation when Jesus passed over our sins and paid the ultimate penalty for us." Why didnt the apostles ever discuss purgatory? 2Cor5:8There is no mention of pur. here. In Luke16:19-31, Jesus reveals there is a great gulf between hell and paradise that ...
The concept of purgatory originally came from the Judaism, which still is a belief amongst the devout Jewish people. You can verify this with a Jewish Rabbi. The first Christians (converted Jews), simply carried on with this accepted belief. Many protestants honor and respect Jewish teachings, but do not respect the concept of purgatory?
Yes, the word "Trinity" isn't found in the bible, BUT the word GODHEAD is(Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9). Yes the word "incarnation" isn't found in the bible, BUT the deity of Christ is clearly stated. 1Timothy 3:16 ~"...God was manifested in the flesh".
However, Purgatory isn't taught in the bible. Hebrew 9:27 ~ "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". after death, then judgment...there is nothing between. Good try in trying to back up an imaginary place tho.
@maluman385 In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. "Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until YOU have PAID the last penny." Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.
@imundiath this verse can be hard to chew on because of how it can be translated. We see in this chapter that Christ elevates the usage of ones tongue to that of murder. I'm pretty sure this passage doesn't imply that there is a third place, and i surely don't think the bible contradicts itself. Psalms 49:7 ~ "No man can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for him the ransom for a life is costly, no payment is ever enough.." (to be continued.)
@imundiath The main point of the gospel is that all our sins have been paid off. We hold no dept as long as we are saved. Now whether we are saved or not is the real determinant in whether we have salvation or not. We no longer have to "pay every last penny" (matt 5:26) because later on in the gospel Christ tells his disciples he has paid the depth which we used to pay for before Christ's death, but after the resurrection the debt of our sin HAS BEEN PAID OFF.
@maluman385 Okay, I have room to refute all you said. Simple as this. Your interpretation of the Bible is incorrect. What makes you so sure your interpretation is correct? Don't say" It's meaning is clear, the Holy Spirit guides us" If that were true, we wouldn't have 36,000 denominations.
@imundiath Alright, i see where this is headed. I can't say my interpretation is the correct one and written in stone. We can only pray and have faith in Christ so that the truth may be known to us. Ok so i made up my mind and setting aside all catholic dogmas and everything i have only 1 question to ask. here is the question: If you die today, do you know for sure you will have salvation in heaven. In other words, do you think you are saved?
@maluman385 Yes. If I die in God's grace I will be saved. But no one is "saved" right now. The Bible says even believers may be separated with the unbelievers "One who practices falsehood"
@imundiath alright. I respect what you believe, but i believe we know whether or not we are going to heaven. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life..." (I John 5:13) Hence, a person knows when he/she is saved. My job here is done, God bless.
@maluman385 Thank you! I respect what you believe too. Lately I've been thinking. Shouldn't we all be one? We are all Christians, and we should unite and spread the word of God. And lead people to Christ. So that others may experience Christ's love.
@imundiath Wrong. Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
The process of purification of every individual that takes place in the world to come is implied in I Corinthians 3:13-15. The process of disciplining of the individual by God that takes place in the struggle with sin can be gleaned from Hebrews 12:4-11.
The nature and existence of purgatory is implied in some passages of the Bible. The chief passage is I John 1:9, which says that If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. In this passage it is clear that forgiveness and purification go together, which could happen in this world or in the world to come.
The basis for the authority of the Catholic Church to grant indulgences is Matthew 16:19 and 18:18. These verses give the leaders of the Church the power to allow or forbid for the good of the Church, which is the body of Jesus Christ and of which Christ is the head. An indulgence is the result of the Churchs pleading with God to spare a member of the Church from the purification that comes as a result of sin that has been forgiven.
johnthreesixteen316, you make a distinction between the "Catholic" Christ and the Christ you believe in. I find this to be in err. I would like to state for the record that the Catholic Church is NOT biblical but the bible is liturgical. It would take too long to explain what that means here because of the limited character space.
SeptemberCatholic18 it is good that you have chosen to defend the faith, I find it interesting that people attack what they refuse to understand.
@KCLeamy God says that Jesus died ONCE for ALL sins, but the rcc says NO, He must be sacrificed again, and there are still sins left over. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life", but Pope Pius said "I am the way, the truth and the life", Jesus said He is the ONLY way to heaven, the pope says the only way to heaven is through the catholic church. They deny the Christ of the Bible.
If purgatory is true then the 'catholic' Christ didn't accomplish anything on the cross, wasted his time and died for nothing. The 'catholic' Christ should have hired a pro instead of doing the job himself. The Christ of Christianity is the Pro. He got the job on the cross done right the first time. And.....He did it for free!
@SeptemberCatholic18 No it doesn't prove purgatory. It proves His death on the cross worked. 1 cross + 3 nails = 4 given. God's way, not man's 'many ways'. Purgatory + confessions + mass + rosary repetitions + eucharist + sacraments + prayers for the dead + donations to the church + holy water plus plus plus.....I hope the Vatican didn't forget anything in their salvation equation!
Once again, you are not paying attention. All of those things you mentioned are extensions of the sacrifice.
How would you like it if I made my own equation for you: Jesus + faith = salvation. Well, looks like Jesus wasn't enough because you need to add man-made faith.
See how false that is? Faith is another extension of the cross. Jesus gives us faith by his grace, just as he gives us sanctification in purgatory. Faith is not man-made and neither is purgatory.
@SeptemberCatholic18 Hebrew 9:27 ~ "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" Purgatory is an imaginary place you catholic's made up. Trinity and the incarnation of God on the other hand are found in the bible (Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9, 1timothy 3:16)
@SeptemberCatholic18 Purgatory is no place. You can`t go there. God makes the spirit of the just perfect: how does that prove purgatory ? A stretch of the imagination. The salvation story ma kes little sense. God comes to daie for us, to save us from the hell HE CREATED. Why didn`t all the generations before Christ need salvation, but we do ?
@lizazoon I'm going to ask about what seems to be obvious: are you an agnostic?
If so, then this video by no means is directed at you. I prove purgatory to Christians from the Bible. Purgatory is the process by which God makes the spirit of the just man perfect before he may enter heaven.
All generations require salvation. In Scripture, we are told that Christ descended into Sheol, the abode of the dead, to preach to the spirits there who died before him, and to save them by the Gospel.
@SeptemberCatholic18 If you talk about heaven, hell, purgatory as places, you must be able to tell me where those places are. The bible should have given the coordinates of those places. In the absence of any detailed info, i must conclude they have the same credibility as the land of ozz
@SeptemberCatholic18 What does a human has to fear from something that is not within the timespace arena? There simply is nothing what we humans call, evidence and that is what we usually go by in every day life.
@lizazoon You must think Catholicism is hell-scare religion; it is not. As we say in our Act of Contrition, "I detest all of my sins because of your just punishment, but most of all, because it offends you, O my God, who is all good and deserving of all my love."
The goal is to turn from wrong because we are hurting someone we love, not because we fear hell. Besides, hell is not a reason to be Christian. Rather, you ought to be Christian because it is true; because Jesus was truth.
@SeptemberCatholic18 Why didnt the thief on the cross go to purgatory? Why didnt Jesus and the Apostles mention purgatory? Why in 2Cor5:8 there is no mention of purgatory, only heaven and hell?
@kiwichristian2009 Maybe all of those things and more were mentioned in the book....only god knows how many pages are missing from it (or kept out) that we don't know about.
@Tusc9969 That is not really the issue here. The issue is that the fairytale of "purgatory" is completely unbiblical and believing in it is in effect calling God a liar.
@kiwichristian2009 It's not calling God a liar. The problem is that you don't even know what purgatory is. Purgatory is an extension of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (not a separate work) which allows God to make the spirits of just men perfect. Hebrews 12:23 says that such a process exists almost word for word.
How can you possibly oppose something you don't understand. In essence, you are the liar for attempting to tear down a true doctrine you don't understand yourself.
@kiwichristian2009 Once again you've made the same folly. Purgatory is NOT a separate work apart from the cross. It is an extension of the cross. Purgatory is Christ's work just as much as faith and good works are! In Hebrews 12:23 it says that God makes the spirits of just men perfect. That is purgatory! God's burning love makes us perfect before we enter heaven, just as Paul describes it in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15!
@SeptemberCatholic18 Purgatory is a man-made money-making thing invented by the unbiblical rcc.Heb1:3 "When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS.".Rom8:1 "There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus.". Psalms49:7 "None of them can redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.".Dont forget Prov10:12 which never mentions purgatory. Acts4:12"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
@kiwichristian2009 No money is made from purgatory, so that's a lie. Heb 1:3 doesn't disprove it because once again, purgatory is an extension of Christ's death, not a separate entity. Rom 8:1 doesn't disprove it because purgatory is not condemnation at all. Psalm 49:7 doesn't disprove it because purgatory is not brother redeeming brother nor giving God a ransom. Acts 4:12 doesn't disprove it because purgatory has nothing to do with salvation.
You ignored Heb 12:23 and 1 Cor 3:10-15. Nice try.
@SeptemberCatholic18 By saying masses and praying for dead people who you believe are in purgatory, you are trying to reduce their time there and redeem them.
@kiwichristian2009 That's a huge misconception. Purgatory has always been part of the faith. In 1439, it was merely defined by a council. For instance, the Trinity was defined by several councils, but it was always the faith! The nature of God, divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and many more obvious facts were all defined by councils to make the faith clear, but it was always the truth!
They are not apocrypha. They were actually in the Bible for over 1,000 years before Martin Luther took them out in the 16th century.
By the way, who said anything about those books anyways? In my other video on purgatory, I make a strong case for this doctrine without referring to anything but the good ol' KJV.
For centuries the RC Church taught that unbaptized infants went to 'Limbo' (borderland). Pope Benny 16 wiped out that teaching. The doctrine of the Trinity goes back to the 1st Ecumenical Council in 325 AD; the doctrine of Purgatory was promulgated by the Pope in the 12th century; it was never approved by a true Ecumenical Council. Likewise, the Beatific Vision is an invention of Thomas Aquinas. The Church is infallible, not the Pope.
Okay, I'm going to guess that you are Eastern Orthodox, correct?
Actually, limbo was never a teaching. It was only a theory, which Pope Benedict XVI infallibly discarded.
If you are Eastern Orthodox, I would argue that you too believe in purgatory. Its belief goes back to Judaism and many Orthodox believe in it under a different name: "aerial toll houses." In any matter, the belief is held by the early Fathers if you'd like to see.
An infallible earthly body needs an infallible earthly head.
We have an infallible Head. He's in Heaven and we are eagerly awaiting His return.
Yes, I'm Eastern Orthodox, by the grace of God. The "aerial toll houses" are reminiscent of Purgatory, but their purpose is not purgation. Instead, these are stations where the demons try to tempt a soul, to prevent it from going to Heaven. Only if the soul has already been purged will it escape the clutches of the demons. Orthodoxy places great emphasis on purification and theosis (deification).
You missed one detail. I said that an earthly body (the church on earth) needs an earthly head (a leader on earth). Christ is in heaven and we await his glorious return. Until then, it makes sense that he would have appointed a steward to lead the Church on earth.
What you are doing is decapitating the earthly church. It's head is in heaven while the body is on earth.
I don't mean to get into a dispute about toll houses, but what you described sounds very absent from Scripture.
you have purposely changed this verse to fit your own false teaching. If you purposely change Scripture to fit your own views, you are most certainly a heretic.
Actually, I didn't mean to suggest that I was quoting the verse. I did NOT quote this verse, I was simply using the verse to show that God's love is fiery.
Besides, this video was made years ago. I have since made it a habit to quote all verses exactly from the King James Version Bible. See my latest video on purgatory which you should find in my profile featured section.
My newer purgatory video is WAY BETTER than this poor video.
@SeptemberCatholic18 What??? You're complaining about a word that isn't even a cuss word. Seriously, you need to stop being picky; there are alot more words out there I could say that I happen to be decent enough not to say.
I am most certainly willing to debate, now which topic do you want to debate.
You're the one who wanted to get into dialogue. Send me a message and present your case.
By the way, I absolutely do not allow copy-and-pasting large amounts of material from other websites. You can copy a little, but as long as it is mostly you doing the talking.
@SeptemberCatholic18 Yes I know that sitting through a Latin Mass service can be very boring for many Catholics in the pews. And yes I know that 1 Corinthians 14:19 condemns conducting a church service in a language the average member does not understand, but the Pope decided that Latin sounds real holy and has both historical and mystical qualities.
@kiwichristian2009 Saying Masses and praying for those in purgatory is not redeeming them. They have already been redeemed by Christ, we are simply helping them be sanctified. The thief on the cross went to Abraham's Bosom, so that is irrelevant; same with the rich man and Lazarus. Latin was used because it served as a "middle language" for all, but over time it because more practical to use the vernacular, which we do today. The seven books Luther took out are the Deuterocanon, not apocrypha.
This video does not make sense.. Sorry. What you and all Catholics are doing is just adding more to what scriptures say.. or just not understanding what they mean.
I apologize. I made another video where I explain it better. Trust me, it is in Scripture. This video is just terrible at explaining it. I would delete it, but others find it so helpful.
Please take the time to view my newer video on purgatory. It should be easy to locate on my profile page.
To me, lCor3:10-15 says that a true believer has been redeemed but God our judge will assess which works he has done that have value and which ones are worthless.
The context of the chapter is Paul ripping the "infants in Christ" for being divided and following various persons ideas. They were not building on the foundation of truth he laid down in Corinth. V.21 Paul says"..no more boasting about men!" What does Heb 12:23 say to you?
I respect your view, but I just want to know how the "tormentors" of verse 34 fit into it. I don't seem to understand it that way. Nevertheless, this is not a strong passage for purgatory anyways. The other two are much stronger.
I agree with your view of 1 Corinthians 3, but I don't think you go far enough. God uses metaphorical fire to "burn" away those bad deeds, thus purifying the person before he enters heaven. That is purgatory.
Heb 12:23 speaks of "the spirits of just men MADE perfect."
Usually, we can never know for sure whether or not someone made it to heaven. However, after someone dies, it is best to assume they are in purgatory, and to therefore pray for them. Even if they are already in heaven or perhaps in hell, God can use our prayers for good.
Canonized saints (ex: Saint Padre Pio) are definitely in heaven. We know because for them to be canonized by the church, two miracles must be attributed to them after death. This proves God is with them.
"Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.
Consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. There are only two places identified by Jesus--Hell and Paradise. The rich man in Hell suffered torment and Lazarus received comfort. Jesus apparently overlooked the chance to teach about Purgatory here in this parable. Lazarus went immediately to a place of comfort. He made no stop at Purgatory. The rich man went to Hell to make eternal payment for his sins.
"Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." Matthew 5:26. And also "There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb."
Cath'c Ency'a: "Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."
Purgatory is a dressed up way to wield power over the living. God has extended grace and mercy to us--Catholicism: punishment and satisfying for transgressions (i.e. sin!)
"Then David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. Nathan answered David: The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die" (2 Sam. 12:13-14).
God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And yet Our Lord Himself gives the example of a man who had been forgiven, afterward acted unjustly, and finally was handed over to repay all that he owed."
The parable you allude to (Matt 18) has to do with the subject of forgiveness. Jesus' parable began when Peter asked a question about how many times one is required to forgive another.
It in no way supports the idea of punishment in the afterlife.
September offers King David's loss of his son for his sexual sin with Bathsheba. Both illustrations are consequencs for sin in THIS life--Purgatory has no biblical basis only the RCC's desire to instill fear and take joy.
My example was to demonstrate that even though God forgives you, he still sometimes require that you suffer for the purpose of sanctification.
When you die, Jesus took all your sins away right? Well God still demands that you suffer a bit for those forgiven sins, just as he asked it of David. Read 1 Cor 3:10-15 and Heb 12:23.
In Matt 18, how do you interpret verse 34 when the lord of the parable sends the servant to "the tormentors" until he should pay his debt? Is this not judgment?
Respectfully, September, Matt 18:21-35 is about answering St. Peter's question at v 21. The subject is about those who lack mercy and forgiveness.
Taking v34 out of the context in which it was spoken and reading into it a teaching on the doctrine of purgatory is incorrect.
Jesus' listeners should have understood the parable. If God (the king) forgives us a debt we cannot pay (our sin debts) then we must be willing to forgive others over much smaller personal wrongs with others.
"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" Phillipians 2:10 and "And no man was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, nor to look on it"
It is odd to me that I can pick up my bible and read Isaiah 1:18 and it totally contradicts what Catholicism has taught you.
"Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord,"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red like crimson they shall be like wool."
No stain there, friend, for the true believer. If God has witheld punishment for sin and it's effects why does your church wish to do that. Answer: mind control!
"Stain left" is an admission by you that Christ's atonement on the cross was not complete....which is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.....the point I was trying to make to you.
By "stain left," I did not mean SIN! I am talking about your character. Are you perfect? Do you have evil thoughts sometimes? Temptations?
In heaven, you won't have any of that. God wipes you clean so that you will not be left with what scholars call "concupiscence" (the desire to sin).
Plus, you continue to ignore this, so I will put in in caps for you: PURGATORY IS THE WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS! THEREFORE IT DOES NOT DENY THE SUFFICIENCY OF HIS SAVING WORK!
Yikes. Once again you fail to understand what purgatory is.
The cleansing process that occurs in purgatory is an act of mercy made possible by the shed blood of Christ. No one is sanctified apart from Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross.
Therefore you raise no real objection. You are only confirming your ignorance of Catholic theology.
The question I am asking is: if Christ cleanses us from ALL sin (I John 1 7,9) what are Catholics being purified from? If venial sins, then Jesus apparently was an imperfect sacrifice for sin.
Jude's benediction at verse 24 reads: "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy..."
I shall bank on this promise being presented faultless. And you, my friend, shall hold to..... what?
Heb 9:27 reads "And it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgement." For the unsaved, judgement for sin. For those who trust in Christ there is a judgement but only for what was done for Christ. (As per your ICor 3 citation). Sin was dealt with by Jesus the Lamb at Calvary.
With Purgatory, your church is untruthfully teaching the thought that for some it is appointed unto men once to die and after that the purification. Hold to the word of God ,
Um, how in the world does Hebrews 9:27 contradict purgatory? Catholics certainly believe in the immediate judgment after death. Purgatory is only for those who have already been judged by God and allowed into the kingdom.
Your argument is from absence, which is not very conclusive, and I indeed provided verses to support my position.
"...and to the spirits of just men MADE PERFECT."
Exactly the point. "Made" is the operative word--not self made through personal suffering
Perhaps Jesus should have said to the thief on the cross "someday you will be with me in Paradise after I let you bake in Purgatory for a century or two"
What do you make of the verse 2Cor5 6-8 that makes clear to be "absent from the body" is to be "at home with theLord."?
Let's stay with Hebrews. At 9:22 one reads that "...without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins." That would be mortal or venial. So once a Catholic has died and his soul and body are separated, what blood can be shed to purify for purported venial ones?
I realize you are defending what you were taught, but the doctrine was created to control people. It uses fear and anxiety to turn minds into bricks with which your church is built.
To your latest comment, you still demonstrate a lack of understanding. Purgatory is an extension of Christ's finished work. Therefore the blood that is required was shed by him! All the is left for us to do is accept his grace. Christ has appointed certain ways of attaining that grace, including purgatory.
Purgatory was by no means a method of control. Purgatory is nothing to be afraid of. C.S. Lewis himself stated that he wants purgatory when he dies to purify himself before entering heaven.
Actually, friend, the teaching IS condemnation and a false one.
Interesting that you cite the book of Hebrews because @10:17, it reads that God will no longer remember our sins and @v18, after recieving forgiveness "there is no other offering for sin." No means no.
Your use of ICor3 to support Purgatory is just wrong. The subject is the judging of a believer's works. Those that are laid upon the foundation of Christ (see v.11) have no value and are "burned" away.
Hell is condemnation. Purgatory is sanctification.
Hebrews 10:17-18 has nothing to do with sanctification. Those verses deal with justification, and I can't believe you missed it. Catholics also affirm that after sins are forgiven, nothing more is to be done towards being forgiven. Penance assumes that the sin has already been forgiven.
In the final analysis, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 deals with justified souls becoming purified, the definition of purgatory. You blatantly ignored Heb 12:23.
Dude, take a breather. Ever read "there is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"? If Catholics can find purification and perfection through suffering why did Christ die on the cross? Purgatory teaches that Christ couldn't do the job that the Father sent him into the world to do: Catholics have to do part of their own purification? The doctrine of Purgatory denigrates Christ's atoning death on the cross. It was only a useful teaching to sell indulgences for MONEY
First of all, purgatory is not condemnation, so your first remark is irrelevant. Secondly, purgatory is NOT a work committed apart from Christ. It is actually a work made possible by Christ's sacrifice. Hebrews 12:23 tells us that God will perfect us when we go to heaven.
The indulgences which were sold were never valid indulgences. They were false indulgences sold by corrupt priests, and the pope of that time revoked them because of this. This therefore is also irrelevant.
I am no believer in the existence of Purgatory. I am reading a book by TAN books called HUNGRY SOULS about purgatory in an attempt to see how well the Catholic press can justify this idea and teaching. I am not convinced because of my own readings of the Bible and definitely my experiences. Judge for yourself. This interesting book is ISBN 978 dash 0 dash 89555 dash 899 dash 2. Gerard JM Van Den Aardweg wrote it.
Yeah, I just looked into it. I've never heard of it. This appears to be, not an apologetic work, but rather a fictional account which serves to tell a tale about a man who comes to accept the notion of purgatory.
I would not recommend this book for people seeking to hear the "other side" from Catholics. To be frank, purgatory is a fairly simple doctrine for me to defend because most people have misconceptions about it.
I recommend my other video on purgatory which I see there in the side bar.
Iam sure some catholics died, There is many things people do in the name of religon, If now we could combined our faith and trust in Jesus all would be well with both protesants and catholic's, we don't agree with doctrine and noone has the edge on Jesus but we should work together.Jesus is for us all <3
I never had a disagreement with that kind of unity. I have always supported cross-denominational unity among Christians. In fact, I believe there is a need for unity among human beings in general.
Thank you for posting this for the Protestants. By the way, this business about "uniting" or "unity" is truly a "false ecumenism", a terrible fruit of Vatican II. Truly it is a heresy.
If the purpose of engaging non-Catholics in discussions is to bring them into the church, great. However, if the purpose is to say, "I'm ok, and you are ok. Let's hold hands and get along", that is heresy.
I don't think Vatican II sought to spread that kind of message, and either do I intend to. Within the Church is the fullness of truth, and although other churches may have small rays of hope, only the Catholic Church contains the entire light. It would be right and proper for all people to be Catholic.
My own opinion if you are not good enough person and youll die you will not go to Heaven but in purgatory..but those bad people the sinners will go directly to hell..
thinzki44 3 months ago
@thinzki44 Not exactly how it works. Eventually everyone ends up in heaven or hell. Purgatory is simply a "cleaning stage" before heaven, if you will, for people who are saved, but still have some imperfections. It lasts a while, and then the person moves on to heaven.
SeptemberCatholic18 3 months ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Purgatory is a silly myth, utterly pointless. Only a decidedly ignorant fool would believe that you spiritually park for some indeterminable amount of time in order to be "refurbished" ( by some indefinable process which no one can genuinely explain or describe), as though Christ's behavior on our collective behalf just wasn't quite sufficient.
JeffersonDinedAlone 2 months ago
@JeffersonDinedAlone St. Paul does a pretty good job of explaining it in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 months ago
@JeffersonDinedAlone I think the person who made this film explained the issue quite well using Holy Scripture to back it up. Jesus said "but he who calls you raca ..thou fool... is in danger of hellfire" Why are you insulting others in the name of Christ, Jesus? This isn't the example left to us by the Lord, Jesus.Your un-Christlike words and condescending attitude say alot about you. God bless you. I'll pray for you.
bheadh 1 month ago
@bheadh Let's make a deal, you and I. Don't put words in my mouth, and I won't put words in yours. No one is insulting anyone here "in the name of Christ, Jesus", as you so ignorantly, and erroneously, put it. I can speak for myself far better than you could ever presume to speak for me, which is quite apparent already. If you wish to believe that you are destined to hover in vapor until you learn how to behave, then don't be surprised when you are considered to be an idiot for it.
JeffersonDinedAlone 1 month ago
Jesus said, "he who calls you raca, thou fool, is in danger of hellfire". This person did his best to explain his veiw with humility and reverence using Holy Scripture to back it up. ..."which no one can genuinly...or describe"...Sir, describe heaven for me!!?? "Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor the heart of man CONCEIVED, what God has PREPARED for those who love Him". Your condescending attitude and insulting rhetoric didn't "explain" nor answer anything either. Are you also a "fool"?
bheadh 1 month ago
@bheadh No one can genuinely insult you unless you are insecure in your perspective. In this case, you would be insecure in whatever belief system you ascribe to. Your problem, certainly not mine.
JeffersonDinedAlone 1 month ago
@JeffersonDinedAlone nothing unclean shall enter into Heaven.
Blackcat51292 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@SeptemberCatholic18 How to DEBUNK d CATHOLIC CHURCH on PURGATORY
Jesus who is God told John what happens to Christian saints when they die?
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying,“Write this down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on.Yes,says the Spirit, they are blessed indeed,FOR THEY WILL REST from their hard work;for their GOOD DEEDS follow them!”
FYI..that's GOOD DEEDS done while the Christian saints are still living,not in Purgatory..LOL
abukid 2 weeks ago
uh, speedy779, the sarcasm in the first line was for those protestants who like to spout off on how Catholics don't know Scripture.
that was it, for the sarcasm.
i own a Douay-Rheims; thank God for St. Jerome. what 'random stuff', are you chirping about? let's not have this devolve into 'catholic-on-catholic crime' because you refuse to ask some simple questions. in case you weren't able to follow what i said, let me break it down. the 'church' Christ talked of subsists in the Catholic church.
damiangoddard 3 months ago
what? a Catholic using Scripture??? the nerve!
a most accurate explanation of purgatory as prescribed by the CCC.
nicely done, indeed!
by the way, finding errors in Tyndale's 'bible' is like studying to find waters in the sea. not my words... the words of St. Thomas More.
before there was Holy Scripture, there was Holy Tradition.
keep up the great work, SeptemberCatholic18!
damiangoddard 3 months ago
@damiangoddard Do to your bad sarcasm I am assuming that you are a Protestant who has no clue what he is talking about and bases his facts on nothing but opinion.
The Catholic Church is the Church that brought the Bible to you.
So maybe instead of saying random stuff based on nothing you should learn some facts.
speedy779 3 months ago
Having been Greek Orthodox (but now Roman Catholic) the evidence for Purgatory is of course not explicit, but is represented in the fact that God's Grace and pressence is not absent from the condemned, but the other way around. Forgiveness through God's Grace also works through prayers for the dead, whereby, although the condemned in Hell are thought to be lost, the prayers may help those receive God's mercy. Purgatory is not a location but a condition like "hell" because of sin.
OCPRS 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love & mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife? He's a better Father than we are, right? He will still judge but He won't write people off forever.
1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
Does the soul or the body go through purgatory?
2000deg 1 year ago
@2000deg The soul goes through purgatory while the body awaits the general resurrection. In the end, we will all receive our bodies back in a perfected, glorified state. Our souls, once fully sanctified, experience the presence of God until then.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Thank you.
2000deg 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Pls. tell me wheredo i can find purgatory in the bible?
leouch20 3 months ago
@leouch20 In the old testament it talks of She'ol[the abode of the dead hades.pugatory,hades].were the dead await Gods judgement.
1 Peter 3:18-20,Where Jesus goes to bring souls out.
yellowballpoets 3 months ago
@yellowballpoets i think Hades is Hell
leouch20 3 months ago
@leouch20 In 1 Peter 3:18-20 it talks about the prison of souls,were Christ brought out souls.In both cases that can't be hell.
yellowballpoets 3 months ago
@courag1 A Mass for someone doesn't cost any money, so that shows how much you know. We depict Christ on a cross to show what he did for us; that was his act of love for us. We CAN talk to Jesus and we do. Mary prays for us and with us as well, fulfilling Paul's call for all men to pray for all in 1 Timothy 2:1. I have a video defending Mary as the ark; watch that video before making arguments to me.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
"When the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs." These coins robbed widows, the poor, thinking they were righteous by supporting their church. The pope who initiated this, Leo X real name was Medici. He funded the building of St. Peter's with the money he collected. Just Propaganda! Jesus fed the poor, Leo took the food off their plates. It was because of Leo that Martin Luther nailed the Diet of Worms to the door of the Rheims Cathedral.
courag1 1 year ago
@courag1 What you quoted is false and the Church has never taught that. Pope Leo X did not initiate paying for indulgences. Once again, and I can't stress this enough, it is against the Church to buy or sell an indulgence. That will get you excommunicated.
Yes, years ago there were abuses and people did buy and sell indulgences, but it was all against the Catholic Church. They were not following the true teachings. Pope Pius V declared all of those bought/sold indulgences invalid.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Well it is comforting that those who bought Indulgences can't come back and collect their money. What's to stop another pope when in debt from doing it again? This is why depending on Holy Scripture which isn't changed for whims or human corruption, to depend on Scripture. The church has many false teaching. The church put Tyndale to death who translated the Bible into English. But later on they came out with their own English translation. BTW, Tyndale was still dead. I
courag1 1 year ago
@courag1 How would you expect to Church to verify who had an indulgence sold to them versus who didn't? You're still not getting it. No pope EVER said it was okay to buy or sell indulgences. That was a crime committed by corrupt members within the Church against the teachings of the Church. Paul said to trust the Church which is the foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).
Tyndale was'nt a scholar and his translation was poor. The Church itself approved many other English translations around that time
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@courag1 The Catholic Connection was correct, little difference between Catholicism and Islam, whether you call it lying or Al Taqqiya, it is all the same. The Great Harlot seated on 7 Hills. Tyndale used the original manuscripts coming West from the sacking of Byzantium. He didn't use the Latin Vulgate, nor did Wycliffe who the RCC killed too. One after another of martyrs. Tell me, was Leo X not Catholic? French Indian War a power grab to make money for a broke Rome from Medici extravagance.
courag1 1 year ago
@courag1 You are now accusing me of lying to your face and hating you secretly. I would say that is an unfair accusation. I made a two-part video series discussing why the Catholic Church cannot be the Harlot.
Once again, Tyndale was not a scholar and his translation was very poor. Over the years, he was made out to be more than he actually was. Wycliffe's translation included many errors and footnotes where he inserted his opinions.
Now you are just making crazy conspiracy theories.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
Salvation in Catholicism is based upon itself, it is self-promoting and self-glorifying. The Commandments are abbreviated so that it removes the prohibition of idolatry so that the faithful don't know that bowing down to statues is forbidden.
Purgatory's purpose in my view is to frighten Catholics into being in church every Sunday, this is a good financial choice forgetting donations. The purpose of church is to have a relationship with Him via Jesus, but Mary is your intercessor.
courag1 1 year ago
Goodness of the individual can never be good enough to merit heaven that is why that the Bible teaches that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." You want to explain how buying Indulgences gets you straight out of purgatory. The Catholic Church taught that too, and also a flat earth and that the earth was the center of the universe. The scripture teaches to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
courag1 1 year ago
@courag1 Purgatory has nothing to do with justification; no one in purgatory is "earning" their way to heaven because they are already saved by Jesus Christ. Read 1 Corinthians 3:15.
The Church never taught that buying an indulgence got you out of purgatory. That was an abuse in the Church and the pope said all those sold indulgences were invalid.
The Church never taught the earth was flat or the center of the universe. It was a general consensus of some people, but never a teaching.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Popes are supposedly inerrant and yet we know they are human. What is scary is the anathemas against Protestants whose sole purpose in separating from the Catholic Church was over such as verse "For by Grace ye are saved, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." These "curses" are still on the books and are valid the same as for those for the Inquisition. We are taught by scripture to fear God, not man.
courag1 1 year ago
@courag1 Popes are only infallible when they definitively teach something regarding faith and morals, but that is a separate issue I am currently making a video on now. The "curses" are not curses, but rather excommunications. That means unless someone believes those points of faith, they are not part of the Church. That doesn't mean you are cursed or damned.
Catholics do not oppose Ephesians 2:8-9. We might even agree on doctrines; I'll need to get your exact position on that verse.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 1. a person or thing detested or loathed: That subject is anathema to him.
2. a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.
3. a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication.
4. any imprecation of divine punishment.
5. a curse; execration.
courag1 1 year ago
@courag1 You need to look up "anathema" in the online Catholic Encyclopedia to see how we use it. No one said popes cannot sin; they are not perfect. No one is ever charged for an indulgence. An excommunication is placed on anyone who buys or sells an indulgence. Salvation is based on Christ in the Church. No commandment was removed (the commandment against idolatry is our first). Purgatory is not meant to frighten, but to fulfill what 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 speaks of.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@courag1 The purpose of excommunication is so that the one so condemned would be damned to hell. Anathema means to be "accursed". Semantics is something to be studied as those who use these big words don't realize what they are saying. Popes have declared Protestants forever separated and therefore damned unless they reconcile to the RCC. The Church is who determines who is saved, not the faith of the individual in Jesus Christ as his savior. What man cannot do, God can and does.
courag1 1 year ago
@courag1 Absolutely wrong. Excommunications do not damn people to hell. It is a formal separation from the Church, much like what Peter did in 1 Timothy 1:20. It is meant to be rehabilitative rather than damning. The Church does not have the authority to save or damn; only Christ does. An anathema is the same thing.
The Church has never damned Protestants. In fact, if you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 817-819, it states that Protestants are Christian and can be saved.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 CORRECTION: I meant to say Paul, not Peter. Also, if I may clarify on my last statement, although Protestants may be saved while not visibly in the Church, they are in much more danger in such a state. In the Catholic Church, you are closer to Christ and therefore more protected against Satan.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Look up the list of Sexually active Popes, those who had illegitimate children or gay lovers in their beds, even in the Vatican or that this history of the Church looking the other way about the sins it commits while running Inquisitions makes me sick. Charging poor people for indulgences to live in opulence promising them heaven for their purchase is sick. Perhaps you really need Purgatory so that Catholics are saved at all.
courag1 1 year ago
who is the catholic church that they can say someone is a saint? it just kills me how they play god...well they're not!
shanana000 1 year ago
@shanana000 The Catholic Church does not make saints. Rather, Jesus makes all of his followers saints. The Catholic Church composes a canon containing saints who lived extraordinary lives in Christ which we can look up to. In other words, God does the work; the Church simply points it out and asks us to do similarly.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
...people cannot pass from one to the other. Catholics defend purg. by quoting the uninspired 2Mac12:40-46 where a "sin offering" is offered for dead soldiers who had committed the sin of idolatry. THis not only contradicts the Bible, but also catholic teaching, because idolatry is a "mortal sin" that would confine a person to hell. An ex-nun said the only purgatory that exists is the priests' pockets.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
Listen, we are PURGED OF OUR SINS ( not some, ALL ) by the blood of Jesus Christ. Heb1:3,Rom8:1 and John5:24. Remember "there is no more condemnation when Jesus passed over our sins and paid the ultimate penalty for us." Why didnt the apostles ever discuss purgatory? 2Cor5:8There is no mention of pur. here. In Luke16:19-31, Jesus reveals there is a great gulf between hell and paradise that ...
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
The concept of purgatory originally came from the Judaism, which still is a belief amongst the devout Jewish people. You can verify this with a Jewish Rabbi. The first Christians (converted Jews), simply carried on with this accepted belief. Many protestants honor and respect Jewish teachings, but do not respect the concept of purgatory?
CameoCorner 1 year ago
Yes, the word "Trinity" isn't found in the bible, BUT the word GODHEAD is(Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9). Yes the word "incarnation" isn't found in the bible, BUT the deity of Christ is clearly stated. 1Timothy 3:16 ~"...God was manifested in the flesh".
However, Purgatory isn't taught in the bible. Hebrew 9:27 ~ "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". after death, then judgment...there is nothing between. Good try in trying to back up an imaginary place tho.
maluman385 1 year ago
@maluman385 The word "Purgatory" isn't found in the Bible. But the word "FIRE to be made clean is" Nice try...
imundiath 1 year ago
@imundiath what chapter and what verse?
maluman385 1 year ago
@maluman385 In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. "Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until YOU have PAID the last penny." Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.
imundiath 1 year ago
@imundiath this verse can be hard to chew on because of how it can be translated. We see in this chapter that Christ elevates the usage of ones tongue to that of murder. I'm pretty sure this passage doesn't imply that there is a third place, and i surely don't think the bible contradicts itself. Psalms 49:7 ~ "No man can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for him the ransom for a life is costly, no payment is ever enough.." (to be continued.)
maluman385 1 year ago
@imundiath The main point of the gospel is that all our sins have been paid off. We hold no dept as long as we are saved. Now whether we are saved or not is the real determinant in whether we have salvation or not. We no longer have to "pay every last penny" (matt 5:26) because later on in the gospel Christ tells his disciples he has paid the depth which we used to pay for before Christ's death, but after the resurrection the debt of our sin HAS BEEN PAID OFF.
maluman385 1 year ago
@imundiath So where does it say "Fire to be made clean"? i can't find it in the gospel
maluman385 1 year ago
@imundiath Ok i'm going to send you an inbox since i don't have the room here to clearly tell you what matthew 5:26 really means...
maluman385 1 year ago
@maluman385 Okay, I have room to refute all you said. Simple as this. Your interpretation of the Bible is incorrect. What makes you so sure your interpretation is correct? Don't say" It's meaning is clear, the Holy Spirit guides us" If that were true, we wouldn't have 36,000 denominations.
imundiath 1 year ago
@imundiath Alright, i see where this is headed. I can't say my interpretation is the correct one and written in stone. We can only pray and have faith in Christ so that the truth may be known to us. Ok so i made up my mind and setting aside all catholic dogmas and everything i have only 1 question to ask. here is the question: If you die today, do you know for sure you will have salvation in heaven. In other words, do you think you are saved?
maluman385 1 year ago
@maluman385 Yes. If I die in God's grace I will be saved. But no one is "saved" right now. The Bible says even believers may be separated with the unbelievers "One who practices falsehood"
imundiath 1 year ago
@imundiath alright. I respect what you believe, but i believe we know whether or not we are going to heaven. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life..." (I John 5:13) Hence, a person knows when he/she is saved. My job here is done, God bless.
maluman385 1 year ago
@maluman385 Thank you! I respect what you believe too. Lately I've been thinking. Shouldn't we all be one? We are all Christians, and we should unite and spread the word of God. And lead people to Christ. So that others may experience Christ's love.
imundiath 1 year ago
@imundiath Yea, We need to spread the good news of Christ and get the Gospel out so others can Christ's love. Agreed! :) God bless
maluman385 1 year ago
@imundiath Wrong. Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@imundiath Yes, referring to our works.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@imundiath Yes, that is referring to works.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
The process of purification of every individual that takes place in the world to come is implied in I Corinthians 3:13-15. The process of disciplining of the individual by God that takes place in the struggle with sin can be gleaned from Hebrews 12:4-11.
wbarquez 1 year ago
@wbarquez Hebrews1:3 "When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS"
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
The nature and existence of purgatory is implied in some passages of the Bible. The chief passage is I John 1:9, which says that If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. In this passage it is clear that forgiveness and purification go together, which could happen in this world or in the world to come.
wbarquez 1 year ago
The basis for the authority of the Catholic Church to grant indulgences is Matthew 16:19 and 18:18. These verses give the leaders of the Church the power to allow or forbid for the good of the Church, which is the body of Jesus Christ and of which Christ is the head. An indulgence is the result of the Churchs pleading with God to spare a member of the Church from the purification that comes as a result of sin that has been forgiven.
wbarquez 1 year ago
johnthreesixteen316, you make a distinction between the "Catholic" Christ and the Christ you believe in. I find this to be in err. I would like to state for the record that the Catholic Church is NOT biblical but the bible is liturgical. It would take too long to explain what that means here because of the limited character space.
SeptemberCatholic18 it is good that you have chosen to defend the faith, I find it interesting that people attack what they refuse to understand.
KCLeamy 1 year ago
@KCLeamy God says that Jesus died ONCE for ALL sins, but the rcc says NO, He must be sacrificed again, and there are still sins left over. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life", but Pope Pius said "I am the way, the truth and the life", Jesus said He is the ONLY way to heaven, the pope says the only way to heaven is through the catholic church. They deny the Christ of the Bible.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kiwichristian2009 You really don't know what you are talking about....
KCLeamy 1 year ago
If purgatory is true then the 'catholic' Christ didn't accomplish anything on the cross, wasted his time and died for nothing. The 'catholic' Christ should have hired a pro instead of doing the job himself. The Christ of Christianity is the Pro. He got the job on the cross done right the first time. And.....He did it for free!
johnthreesixteen316 2 years ago
Sigh....you are not listening.
Purgatory is an extension of Christ's mercy. His sacrifice is applied to all those seeking purification in spirit.
Look at Hebrews 12:23. God MAKES the spirits of the just perfect. THat proves purgatory.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 No it doesn't prove purgatory. It proves His death on the cross worked. 1 cross + 3 nails = 4 given. God's way, not man's 'many ways'. Purgatory + confessions + mass + rosary repetitions + eucharist + sacraments + prayers for the dead + donations to the church + holy water plus plus plus.....I hope the Vatican didn't forget anything in their salvation equation!
johnthreesixteen316 2 years ago
Once again, you are not paying attention. All of those things you mentioned are extensions of the sacrifice.
How would you like it if I made my own equation for you: Jesus + faith = salvation. Well, looks like Jesus wasn't enough because you need to add man-made faith.
See how false that is? Faith is another extension of the cross. Jesus gives us faith by his grace, just as he gives us sanctification in purgatory. Faith is not man-made and neither is purgatory.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Hebrew 9:27 ~ "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" Purgatory is an imaginary place you catholic's made up. Trinity and the incarnation of God on the other hand are found in the bible (Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9, 1timothy 3:16)
maluman385 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Purgatory is no place. You can`t go there. God makes the spirit of the just perfect: how does that prove purgatory ? A stretch of the imagination. The salvation story ma kes little sense. God comes to daie for us, to save us from the hell HE CREATED. Why didn`t all the generations before Christ need salvation, but we do ?
lizazoon 1 year ago
@lizazoon I'm going to ask about what seems to be obvious: are you an agnostic?
If so, then this video by no means is directed at you. I prove purgatory to Christians from the Bible. Purgatory is the process by which God makes the spirit of the just man perfect before he may enter heaven.
All generations require salvation. In Scripture, we are told that Christ descended into Sheol, the abode of the dead, to preach to the spirits there who died before him, and to save them by the Gospel.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 If you talk about heaven, hell, purgatory as places, you must be able to tell me where those places are. The bible should have given the coordinates of those places. In the absence of any detailed info, i must conclude they have the same credibility as the land of ozz
lizazoon 1 year ago
@lizazoon Who said they were physical places within the spacetime arena?
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 What does a human has to fear from something that is not within the timespace arena? There simply is nothing what we humans call, evidence and that is what we usually go by in every day life.
lizazoon 1 year ago
@lizazoon You must think Catholicism is hell-scare religion; it is not. As we say in our Act of Contrition, "I detest all of my sins because of your just punishment, but most of all, because it offends you, O my God, who is all good and deserving of all my love."
The goal is to turn from wrong because we are hurting someone we love, not because we fear hell. Besides, hell is not a reason to be Christian. Rather, you ought to be Christian because it is true; because Jesus was truth.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Heb1:3, Romans8:1, John5:24
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Why didnt the thief on the cross go to purgatory? Why didnt Jesus and the Apostles mention purgatory? Why in 2Cor5:8 there is no mention of purgatory, only heaven and hell?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Maybe all of those things and more were mentioned in the book....only god knows how many pages are missing from it (or kept out) that we don't know about.
Tusc9969 1 year ago
@Tusc9969 That is not really the issue here. The issue is that the fairytale of "purgatory" is completely unbiblical and believing in it is in effect calling God a liar.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 It's not calling God a liar. The problem is that you don't even know what purgatory is. Purgatory is an extension of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (not a separate work) which allows God to make the spirits of just men perfect. Hebrews 12:23 says that such a process exists almost word for word.
How can you possibly oppose something you don't understand. In essence, you are the liar for attempting to tear down a true doctrine you don't understand yourself.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 But the Bible says that the work of Christs' sacrifice is complete. It is finished. There is now no more offering for sin.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Once again you've made the same folly. Purgatory is NOT a separate work apart from the cross. It is an extension of the cross. Purgatory is Christ's work just as much as faith and good works are! In Hebrews 12:23 it says that God makes the spirits of just men perfect. That is purgatory! God's burning love makes us perfect before we enter heaven, just as Paul describes it in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15!
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Purgatory is a man-made money-making thing invented by the unbiblical rcc.Heb1:3 "When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS.".Rom8:1 "There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus.". Psalms49:7 "None of them can redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.".Dont forget Prov10:12 which never mentions purgatory. Acts4:12"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 No money is made from purgatory, so that's a lie. Heb 1:3 doesn't disprove it because once again, purgatory is an extension of Christ's death, not a separate entity. Rom 8:1 doesn't disprove it because purgatory is not condemnation at all. Psalm 49:7 doesn't disprove it because purgatory is not brother redeeming brother nor giving God a ransom. Acts 4:12 doesn't disprove it because purgatory has nothing to do with salvation.
You ignored Heb 12:23 and 1 Cor 3:10-15. Nice try.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 By saying masses and praying for dead people who you believe are in purgatory, you are trying to reduce their time there and redeem them.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Don't forget that it was not until 1439 AD that purgatory was made a dogma by the Council of Florence
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 That's a huge misconception. Purgatory has always been part of the faith. In 1439, it was merely defined by a council. For instance, the Trinity was defined by several councils, but it was always the faith! The nature of God, divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and many more obvious facts were all defined by councils to make the faith clear, but it was always the truth!
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Where was purgatory when the thief on the cross was saved? Where was purgatory in the rich man and lazarus story?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
Zkueker88 is 100 percent correct! We must use the Bible as the authority, not the books of the Apocrypha.
johnthreesixteen316 2 years ago
They are not apocrypha. They were actually in the Bible for over 1,000 years before Martin Luther took them out in the 16th century.
By the way, who said anything about those books anyways? In my other video on purgatory, I make a strong case for this doctrine without referring to anything but the good ol' KJV.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
For centuries the RC Church taught that unbaptized infants went to 'Limbo' (borderland). Pope Benny 16 wiped out that teaching. The doctrine of the Trinity goes back to the 1st Ecumenical Council in 325 AD; the doctrine of Purgatory was promulgated by the Pope in the 12th century; it was never approved by a true Ecumenical Council. Likewise, the Beatific Vision is an invention of Thomas Aquinas. The Church is infallible, not the Pope.
Xenogeek2 2 years ago
Okay, I'm going to guess that you are Eastern Orthodox, correct?
Actually, limbo was never a teaching. It was only a theory, which Pope Benedict XVI infallibly discarded.
If you are Eastern Orthodox, I would argue that you too believe in purgatory. Its belief goes back to Judaism and many Orthodox believe in it under a different name: "aerial toll houses." In any matter, the belief is held by the early Fathers if you'd like to see.
An infallible earthly body needs an infallible earthly head.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
We have an infallible Head. He's in Heaven and we are eagerly awaiting His return.
Yes, I'm Eastern Orthodox, by the grace of God. The "aerial toll houses" are reminiscent of Purgatory, but their purpose is not purgation. Instead, these are stations where the demons try to tempt a soul, to prevent it from going to Heaven. Only if the soul has already been purged will it escape the clutches of the demons. Orthodoxy places great emphasis on purification and theosis (deification).
Xenogeek2 2 years ago
You missed one detail. I said that an earthly body (the church on earth) needs an earthly head (a leader on earth). Christ is in heaven and we await his glorious return. Until then, it makes sense that he would have appointed a steward to lead the Church on earth.
What you are doing is decapitating the earthly church. It's head is in heaven while the body is on earth.
I don't mean to get into a dispute about toll houses, but what you described sounds very absent from Scripture.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 How can I trust what you teach if you misquote and change these pass-
ages?
Example: What you say Hebrews 12:29 says:
Thus God's fiery love burns away all impurities that may remain after we die.
What Hebrews 12:29 really says:
For our God is a consuming fire.
you have purposely changed this verse to fit your own false teaching. If you purposely change Scripture to fit your own views, you are most certainly a heretic.
N00bcrunch3r 2 years ago
Actually, I didn't mean to suggest that I was quoting the verse. I did NOT quote this verse, I was simply using the verse to show that God's love is fiery.
Besides, this video was made years ago. I have since made it a habit to quote all verses exactly from the King James Version Bible. See my latest video on purgatory which you should find in my profile featured section.
My newer purgatory video is WAY BETTER than this poor video.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 At least you admit this poor.
N00bcrunch3r 2 years ago
Yes, it is pretty badly made. I used Widows Movie Maker, and this was when I barely knew much about defending the faith.
I kept it up because many people gained something from it nonetheless.
But I assure you, my newer video on purgatory leaves no room for doubt. It is far from being poor.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 "And this was when I barely knew much about defending the faith."
And I have a crapload of material to debate the faith.
N00bcrunch3r 2 years ago
Christians don't say "crap." If you want to discuss purgatory with me through personal messages, I would love to see what you have to say.
I took formal debate classes, so I am not the yelling/screaming type. I will be calm, charitable, sincere, and open-minded, yet all the while bold.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 What??? You're complaining about a word that isn't even a cuss word. Seriously, you need to stop being picky; there are alot more words out there I could say that I happen to be decent enough not to say.
I am most certainly willing to debate, now which topic do you want to debate.
N00bcrunch3r 2 years ago
The Lord say to keep all our language pure.
You're the one who wanted to get into dialogue. Send me a message and present your case.
By the way, I absolutely do not allow copy-and-pasting large amounts of material from other websites. You can copy a little, but as long as it is mostly you doing the talking.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
@SeptemberCatholic18 Yes I know that sitting through a Latin Mass service can be very boring for many Catholics in the pews. And yes I know that 1 Corinthians 14:19 condemns conducting a church service in a language the average member does not understand, but the Pope decided that Latin sounds real holy and has both historical and mystical qualities.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Saying Masses and praying for those in purgatory is not redeeming them. They have already been redeemed by Christ, we are simply helping them be sanctified. The thief on the cross went to Abraham's Bosom, so that is irrelevant; same with the rich man and Lazarus. Latin was used because it served as a "middle language" for all, but over time it because more practical to use the vernacular, which we do today. The seven books Luther took out are the Deuterocanon, not apocrypha.
SeptemberCatholic18 1 year ago
This video does not make sense.. Sorry. What you and all Catholics are doing is just adding more to what scriptures say.. or just not understanding what they mean.
LEFTY310 2 years ago
I apologize. I made another video where I explain it better. Trust me, it is in Scripture. This video is just terrible at explaining it. I would delete it, but others find it so helpful.
Please take the time to view my newer video on purgatory. It should be easy to locate on my profile page.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
Maybe non-catholics do not know the meaning of scripture, thats why there are over ten million conflicting bogus sects of you.
AtomicMonster454 2 years ago
To me, lCor3:10-15 says that a true believer has been redeemed but God our judge will assess which works he has done that have value and which ones are worthless.
The context of the chapter is Paul ripping the "infants in Christ" for being divided and following various persons ideas. They were not building on the foundation of truth he laid down in Corinth. V.21 Paul says"..no more boasting about men!" What does Heb 12:23 say to you?
jotyod 2 years ago
I respect your view, but I just want to know how the "tormentors" of verse 34 fit into it. I don't seem to understand it that way. Nevertheless, this is not a strong passage for purgatory anyways. The other two are much stronger.
I agree with your view of 1 Corinthians 3, but I don't think you go far enough. God uses metaphorical fire to "burn" away those bad deeds, thus purifying the person before he enters heaven. That is purgatory.
Heb 12:23 speaks of "the spirits of just men MADE perfect."
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
Sir ,how can we know that the people who died is truly a saint or in heaven?
Thank You...
GOD BLESS...
pRiMeJeSsz 2 years ago
Great question!
Usually, we can never know for sure whether or not someone made it to heaven. However, after someone dies, it is best to assume they are in purgatory, and to therefore pray for them. Even if they are already in heaven or perhaps in hell, God can use our prayers for good.
Canonized saints (ex: Saint Padre Pio) are definitely in heaven. We know because for them to be canonized by the church, two miracles must be attributed to them after death. This proves God is with them.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
Thank you Sir for answering....
GOD BLESS...
pRiMeJeSsz 2 years ago
No problem.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
"Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.
Naturalhit 2 years ago
Consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. There are only two places identified by Jesus--Hell and Paradise. The rich man in Hell suffered torment and Lazarus received comfort. Jesus apparently overlooked the chance to teach about Purgatory here in this parable. Lazarus went immediately to a place of comfort. He made no stop at Purgatory. The rich man went to Hell to make eternal payment for his sins.
Jesus is all sufficient to deliver us from sin.
jotyod 2 years ago
"Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." Matthew 5:26. And also "There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb."
Naturalhit 2 years ago
Cath'c Ency'a: "Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."
Purgatory is a dressed up way to wield power over the living. God has extended grace and mercy to us--Catholicism: punishment and satisfying for transgressions (i.e. sin!)
jotyod 2 years ago
Actually, God still requires punishment:
"Then David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. Nathan answered David: The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die" (2 Sam. 12:13-14).
God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And yet Our Lord Himself gives the example of a man who had been forgiven, afterward acted unjustly, and finally was handed over to repay all that he owed."
Rom 8:1
Naturalhit 2 years ago
@Natural,
The parable you allude to (Matt 18) has to do with the subject of forgiveness. Jesus' parable began when Peter asked a question about how many times one is required to forgive another.
It in no way supports the idea of punishment in the afterlife.
September offers King David's loss of his son for his sexual sin with Bathsheba. Both illustrations are consequencs for sin in THIS life--Purgatory has no biblical basis only the RCC's desire to instill fear and take joy.
jotyod 2 years ago
My example was to demonstrate that even though God forgives you, he still sometimes require that you suffer for the purpose of sanctification.
When you die, Jesus took all your sins away right? Well God still demands that you suffer a bit for those forgiven sins, just as he asked it of David. Read 1 Cor 3:10-15 and Heb 12:23.
In Matt 18, how do you interpret verse 34 when the lord of the parable sends the servant to "the tormentors" until he should pay his debt? Is this not judgment?
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
Respectfully, September, Matt 18:21-35 is about answering St. Peter's question at v 21. The subject is about those who lack mercy and forgiveness.
Taking v34 out of the context in which it was spoken and reading into it a teaching on the doctrine of purgatory is incorrect.
Jesus' listeners should have understood the parable. If God (the king) forgives us a debt we cannot pay (our sin debts) then we must be willing to forgive others over much smaller personal wrongs with others.
jotyod 2 years ago
Matt 18:21-35 You need to fully read and comprehend as to how Jesus responded to that question. Matt 18:34 is clear, why would Jesus say that then?
Naturalhit 2 years ago
"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" Phillipians 2:10 and "And no man was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, nor to look on it"
Naturalhit 2 years ago
You fail to understand that Purgatory will lead you to Heaven. Yes, this is grace and mercy from God.
Those who are in Heaven don't need grace and mercy because they are with God already.
Those who are in hell have lost the grace and mercy from God.
"And every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth..." Rev 5:13
under the earth was in reference to Purgatory. Or Sheol in Hebrew/Aramaic and Hades in Greek.
Hell is total destruction of your soul
Naturalhit 2 years ago
It is odd to me that I can pick up my bible and read Isaiah 1:18 and it totally contradicts what Catholicism has taught you.
"Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord,"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red like crimson they shall be like wool."
No stain there, friend, for the true believer. If God has witheld punishment for sin and it's effects why does your church wish to do that. Answer: mind control!
jotyod 2 years ago
Yes... This is so true... Once they have passed through Purgatory.
spartacus6839 2 years ago
"Stain left" is an admission by you that Christ's atonement on the cross was not complete....which is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.....the point I was trying to make to you.
jotyod 2 years ago
By "stain left," I did not mean SIN! I am talking about your character. Are you perfect? Do you have evil thoughts sometimes? Temptations?
In heaven, you won't have any of that. God wipes you clean so that you will not be left with what scholars call "concupiscence" (the desire to sin).
Plus, you continue to ignore this, so I will put in in caps for you: PURGATORY IS THE WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS! THEREFORE IT DOES NOT DENY THE SUFFICIENCY OF HIS SAVING WORK!
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
1John1:7,9 as you must know, reads: "The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" and "all unrighteousness."
If Purgatory existed that verse would have read "some sin" or " "most sin"
I thank God that his Son Jesus took ALL my sins upon himself on the cross.
Why not allow "all" to say all?
jotyod 2 years ago
Yikes. Once again you fail to understand what purgatory is.
The cleansing process that occurs in purgatory is an act of mercy made possible by the shed blood of Christ. No one is sanctified apart from Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross.
Therefore you raise no real objection. You are only confirming your ignorance of Catholic theology.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
The question I am asking is: if Christ cleanses us from ALL sin (I John 1 7,9) what are Catholics being purified from? If venial sins, then Jesus apparently was an imperfect sacrifice for sin.
Jude's benediction at verse 24 reads: "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy..."
I shall bank on this promise being presented faultless. And you, my friend, shall hold to..... what?
jotyod 2 years ago
Purgatory IS Christ purifying us from any stain left. This purification is made possible by his eternal sacrifice.
You seem to not be listening to my answers. There is NO purification apart from Christ. HE is the one cleaning us in the process known as purgatory.
Hebrews 12:23, my friend.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
Heb 9:27 reads "And it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgement." For the unsaved, judgement for sin. For those who trust in Christ there is a judgement but only for what was done for Christ. (As per your ICor 3 citation). Sin was dealt with by Jesus the Lamb at Calvary.
With Purgatory, your church is untruthfully teaching the thought that for some it is appointed unto men once to die and after that the purification. Hold to the word of God ,
jotyod 2 years ago
Um, how in the world does Hebrews 9:27 contradict purgatory? Catholics certainly believe in the immediate judgment after death. Purgatory is only for those who have already been judged by God and allowed into the kingdom.
Your argument is from absence, which is not very conclusive, and I indeed provided verses to support my position.
Heb 12:23
"...and to the spirits of just men MADE PERFECT." Spirits made perfect? Sounds like sanctification to me.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
Heb 12:23
"...and to the spirits of just men MADE PERFECT."
Exactly the point. "Made" is the operative word--not self made through personal suffering
Perhaps Jesus should have said to the thief on the cross "someday you will be with me in Paradise after I let you bake in Purgatory for a century or two"
What do you make of the verse 2Cor5 6-8 that makes clear to be "absent from the body" is to be "at home with theLord."?
Purgatory is absent because it's nonexistant.
jotyod 2 years ago
Let's stay with Hebrews. At 9:22 one reads that "...without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins." That would be mortal or venial. So once a Catholic has died and his soul and body are separated, what blood can be shed to purify for purported venial ones?
I realize you are defending what you were taught, but the doctrine was created to control people. It uses fear and anxiety to turn minds into bricks with which your church is built.
jotyod 2 years ago
To your latest comment, you still demonstrate a lack of understanding. Purgatory is an extension of Christ's finished work. Therefore the blood that is required was shed by him! All the is left for us to do is accept his grace. Christ has appointed certain ways of attaining that grace, including purgatory.
Purgatory was by no means a method of control. Purgatory is nothing to be afraid of. C.S. Lewis himself stated that he wants purgatory when he dies to purify himself before entering heaven.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
Actually, friend, the teaching IS condemnation and a false one.
Interesting that you cite the book of Hebrews because @10:17, it reads that God will no longer remember our sins and @v18, after recieving forgiveness "there is no other offering for sin." No means no.
Your use of ICor3 to support Purgatory is just wrong. The subject is the judging of a believer's works. Those that are laid upon the foundation of Christ (see v.11) have no value and are "burned" away.
jotyod 2 years ago
Hell is condemnation. Purgatory is sanctification.
Hebrews 10:17-18 has nothing to do with sanctification. Those verses deal with justification, and I can't believe you missed it. Catholics also affirm that after sins are forgiven, nothing more is to be done towards being forgiven. Penance assumes that the sin has already been forgiven.
In the final analysis, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 deals with justified souls becoming purified, the definition of purgatory. You blatantly ignored Heb 12:23.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
Dude, take a breather. Ever read "there is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"? If Catholics can find purification and perfection through suffering why did Christ die on the cross? Purgatory teaches that Christ couldn't do the job that the Father sent him into the world to do: Catholics have to do part of their own purification? The doctrine of Purgatory denigrates Christ's atoning death on the cross. It was only a useful teaching to sell indulgences for MONEY
jotyod 2 years ago
First of all, purgatory is not condemnation, so your first remark is irrelevant. Secondly, purgatory is NOT a work committed apart from Christ. It is actually a work made possible by Christ's sacrifice. Hebrews 12:23 tells us that God will perfect us when we go to heaven.
The indulgences which were sold were never valid indulgences. They were false indulgences sold by corrupt priests, and the pope of that time revoked them because of this. This therefore is also irrelevant.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
I am no believer in the existence of Purgatory. I am reading a book by TAN books called HUNGRY SOULS about purgatory in an attempt to see how well the Catholic press can justify this idea and teaching. I am not convinced because of my own readings of the Bible and definitely my experiences. Judge for yourself. This interesting book is ISBN 978 dash 0 dash 89555 dash 899 dash 2. Gerard JM Van Den Aardweg wrote it.
fredphellipssdriver 2 years ago
Yeah, I just looked into it. I've never heard of it. This appears to be, not an apologetic work, but rather a fictional account which serves to tell a tale about a man who comes to accept the notion of purgatory.
I would not recommend this book for people seeking to hear the "other side" from Catholics. To be frank, purgatory is a fairly simple doctrine for me to defend because most people have misconceptions about it.
I recommend my other video on purgatory which I see there in the side bar.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
Iam sure some catholics died, There is many things people do in the name of religon, If now we could combined our faith and trust in Jesus all would be well with both protesants and catholic's, we don't agree with doctrine and noone has the edge on Jesus but we should work together.Jesus is for us all <3
blessedwithoutmeasur 2 years ago
I never had a disagreement with that kind of unity. I have always supported cross-denominational unity among Christians. In fact, I believe there is a need for unity among human beings in general.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
amen to that that is what is called to Love with Christ Love I always am seeking freindship with others we all need each other
blessedwithoutmeasur 2 years ago
I will never oppose somebody with that kind of attitude.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
thankyou september catholic you are so kind<3
blessedwithoutmeasur 2 years ago
I will keep you in my prayers tonight.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
ahh thank you!!!! you'lle also be in my prayers
blessedwithoutmeasur 2 years ago
Thank you for posting this for the Protestants. By the way, this business about "uniting" or "unity" is truly a "false ecumenism", a terrible fruit of Vatican II. Truly it is a heresy.
If the purpose of engaging non-Catholics in discussions is to bring them into the church, great. However, if the purpose is to say, "I'm ok, and you are ok. Let's hold hands and get along", that is heresy.
1962SatanTookOver2 2 years ago
I don't think Vatican II sought to spread that kind of message, and either do I intend to. Within the Church is the fullness of truth, and although other churches may have small rays of hope, only the Catholic Church contains the entire light. It would be right and proper for all people to be Catholic.
SeptemberCatholic18 2 years ago
Thank you for making this video! Now I can finally understand & accept the doctrine of purgatory!
Veazle5 2 years ago