It seems they use railroad jargon correctly in the movie. The fireman on the second engine sounds like he yells out "First section! Big-hole it!" when he sees the caboose. Big hole is the term for emergency stop, or in other words, the biggest hole in the valving in the brake stand. If that's what he said, anyway.
@TheImpersonator100 Re the "Engine" Its hard to pick the wheel arrangement on this clip but a clearer vision (DVD) would reveal the type.. I'll have a look at the film again (if I can find it in the spare room) Cheers....
Ok for those Model train fans out there this would really help me. Um the Second Section's Coaches. I've seen many model circus trains with that type of coach what are they called?
@TheImpersonator100 The coaches have mixed histories including converted ex US Army Hospital cars. Type or paste the following to your search engine. PASSENGER CAR PHOTO INDEX - RINGLING BROS. and BARNUM. This will give you all the information you need on their heritage as well as photos.
Somehow, I doubt that a steam locomotive that size would simply slam into the cars and jolt them off the tracks. It would seem more likely that it would smash through the last few cars and then derail from the buildup of debris.
Somehow, I doubt that a steam locomotive that size would simply slam into the cars and jolt them off the tracks. It would seem more likely that it would plow through the last few cars and then derail from the buildup of debris.
@fairportfan2 If you'll notice starting at 2:40, the caboose is intact and it sort of levers the engine off the rails. A locomotive of that size and weight would just crush it like an empty beer can and keep on going.
@Gunny761 The caboose has a steel frame that would allow pushing an entire train it was on the end of without damage.
Granted, the physics of overcranked miniature photography don't precisely match those of the real thing, but the overall action as seen matches that of real train wrecks of the period. Since the train isn't a rigid structure, but has weak points at each coupling, the cars tend to be tossed different directions with minimal crumpling.
@fairportfan2 - a few further words - take a folding carpenter's rule, put the end against a wall and push on it. Won't break the segments because it'll fold at the joints.
Also, note "Exec3549" says "Although a theatrical production of such a wreck, it is very realistic and technically accurate." and "Fortunately, because of the solid structures of American passenger cars, survival rates, even in catastrophic collisions like this result in minimal casualties, usually less than 5% aboard ."
Somehow, I doubt that a steam locomotive that size would simply slam into the cars and jolt them off the tracks. It would seem more likely that it would plow through the last few cars and then derail from the buildup of debris.
Understand, the bad guy has a girlfriend on the train, and when he realizes she will be injured, he drive into the train to save her life. The clown (jimmy Stewart) is hiding from the law, as a doctor, he performed a mercy killing. It's really a good film, but the train wreck is well done. I hate to see all those miniature animals hurt.
Scale? I'd say O scale. This sequence shows the highest form of SLO-MO, old fashioned matte work, and rotoscoping. The locomotive smoke you see is rotoscoped painstakingly by airbrush. Then matted in. The blueish night background is also matted in. I think the car is matted in, being a bit big in scale to the locomotive.. The humans running from the rails after the crash are travelling mattes. Oh, the car driving into the locomotive? Rear screen projection. Just excellent.
I saw this movie on tv when I was a kid, and I never forgot this train wreck sequence. In an age long before CG, it is a very realistic looking scene. Kudos to the production people for this one!
I am looking to "re-build Ringling Brothers Barnum And Bailey Combined Shows Trains like these In G-Scale. What type of Locomotive would this be to use like this one? A reply would be appreciated.
@9005067 : If you want to see how they do this stuff, look here on You Tube for videos called "Movie Magic Models and Miniatures" and "Movie Magic 7 action miniatures". Describes in detail how they did it before CGI ruined everything.
The mock ups are either HO or S Guage American Flyer and the Road name on the locomotive is Atlantic Coast Line ,either a 482 Mountain or a 484 Northern
@9005067 That's bigger than S - it's probably bigger than O, for that matter. It wouldn't surprise me if it's 1" (one inch to the foot, 1/12 scale). No way that you get that sort of smoke action in an HO or S locomotive, nor that detail level.
Also, staging that sort of elaborate wreck sequence in that small a scale is awkward, since you'd have to run the camera at 240 FPS (HO) 192 (S); you have to slow down the projection by the square root of the scale to look right.
@fairportfan2 You are right they are 1" scale. There are photos of the actual models used in the movie in flickr. Just google " the greatest show on earth movie passenger cars" and you will find them.
Was this deriailment done with HO guage eqipment os S guage American Flyer as you can see the American Railroad Name ia Atlantic Coast line Railroad probably a 482 mountain or a 484 Northern steam locomotive
The only thing that really gives it away as a miniature is the lack of depth of field (things nearest the camera are blurry) and a bit of wobble on some bits. But the idea as "sorryosaurus rex" says about using an explosion is ... Why??? Why would the train explode (it's a steam engine) or the car (car's gas tank is in the rear, the car was struck head on) for that matter? Oops... I see someone else addressed that below as well. Okay I'll reinforce it.
@eimb1999 More than depth of field - the diorama is pretty obviously a miniature set, too, and they didn't get the time scaling exactly right (leading to that wobble/jerkiness you mention. Miniature shots had to be shot over-cranked so that, when projected at 24 FPS, they are slowed down by a factor equal to the square root of the scale factor.
Cars don't explode, except under the most unusual conditions (not even when on fire), no matter what Hollywood tells us.
@machinegunangel : Why remake it? Would you re-paint the Mona Lisa too? if they remake it they'll pollute it all up with political correctness and fake CG crap, but you won't see anything because they'll have the camera shaking all over the damned place like they do with everything today.
Yes, realistic and technically accurate. Engineer gave one long, three short (whistle signal to rear end crew to provide rear protection, this was before radios). And the cause of the accident is made to appear as lack of flagging, which the rear flagmen was about to provide if he hadn't been taken out..... Great director. Yes, big hole it refers to the largest port on the brake stand which opens the entire brake line. Another fun term I've heard is "wipe the clock".
WOW!!! TOTALLY AWESOME at 2:39! Except for two things. Number 1: They could have used an explosion. Number 2: It's foolish to drive a car towards an oncoming train.
Still gives me chills whenever viewing this scene. Though the locomotives and passenger cars were obviously models, the wreck sequence looked pretty convincing, especially since the camera was slowed down giving the impression that tons of steel was being pushed, twisted, and crushed. The scale looked like either O or #1, but that's my guess.
You have to overcrank the camera (which gives slow motion), in order to get realistic effects. That is - an object falling free for two seconds falls 64 feet; if it's 1/2 scale, that's 128 feet in proportion. A full-size object falling 128 feet would take 2.8 seconds - so you have to slow down the speed by 1.4, the square root of the scale factor.
Emmett Kelly said that the fullsize set of the aftermath was so realistic it gave him chills.
@fairportfan2 OK, I understand now. From what you're stating, the camera was speeded up to a specific pre-calculated speed setting and then when played back at a normal speed the sequence is slowed down greatly but to our eyes it would appear normal. Am I in the ball park?
Although a theatrical production of such a wreck, it is very realistic and technically accurate.
I work in the railroad industry, and investigate collisions and derailments. Some of the modern signal systems employed today, prevent this type of accident. Fortunately, because of the solid structures of American passenger cars, survival rates, even in catastrophic collisions like this result in minimal casualties, usually less than 5% aboard .
@Exec3549 I like the little touches - the fireman shouting "Big hole it!" before the engineer dynamites the train. Not that it would do all that much good in that sort of situation...
I wonder if this scene inspired the scene from Super 8
thegreengoliath 1 month ago
It seems they use railroad jargon correctly in the movie. The fireman on the second engine sounds like he yells out "First section! Big-hole it!" when he sees the caboose. Big hole is the term for emergency stop, or in other words, the biggest hole in the valving in the brake stand. If that's what he said, anyway.
junkdeal 4 months ago
Anyone know what type of Engine that is?
TheImpersonator100 4 months ago
@TheImpersonator100 Re the "Engine" Its hard to pick the wheel arrangement on this clip but a clearer vision (DVD) would reveal the type.. I'll have a look at the film again (if I can find it in the spare room) Cheers....
jagerfaust2009 3 months ago
Ok for those Model train fans out there this would really help me. Um the Second Section's Coaches. I've seen many model circus trains with that type of coach what are they called?
TheImpersonator100 4 months ago
@TheImpersonator100 The coaches have mixed histories including converted ex US Army Hospital cars. Type or paste the following to your search engine. PASSENGER CAR PHOTO INDEX - RINGLING BROS. and BARNUM. This will give you all the information you need on their heritage as well as photos.
Hope this helps...jager
jagerfaust2009 3 months ago
This movie was made at Paramount, not MGM.
kirko1954 5 months ago
My favorite special effects sequence from the entire history of cinema. Who needs computers???!!!
kirko1954 5 months ago
this is so insanely awesome!
RedUncle 6 months ago
What a frickin IDIOT!!!! Why didn't he jump out of the car?
Jammed9000 9 months ago
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Somehow, I doubt that a steam locomotive that size would simply slam into the cars and jolt them off the tracks. It would seem more likely that it would smash through the last few cars and then derail from the buildup of debris.
Gunny761 10 months ago
Somehow, I doubt that a steam locomotive that size would simply slam into the cars and jolt them off the tracks. It would seem more likely that it would plow through the last few cars and then derail from the buildup of debris.
Gunny761 10 months ago
@Gunny761 Gosh - you mean like it did?
fairportfan2 8 months ago
@fairportfan2 If you'll notice starting at 2:40, the caboose is intact and it sort of levers the engine off the rails. A locomotive of that size and weight would just crush it like an empty beer can and keep on going.
Gunny761 8 months ago
@Gunny761 The caboose has a steel frame that would allow pushing an entire train it was on the end of without damage.
Granted, the physics of overcranked miniature photography don't precisely match those of the real thing, but the overall action as seen matches that of real train wrecks of the period. Since the train isn't a rigid structure, but has weak points at each coupling, the cars tend to be tossed different directions with minimal crumpling.
fairportfan2 8 months ago
@fairportfan2 - a few further words - take a folding carpenter's rule, put the end against a wall and push on it. Won't break the segments because it'll fold at the joints.
Also, note "Exec3549" says "Although a theatrical production of such a wreck, it is very realistic and technically accurate." and "Fortunately, because of the solid structures of American passenger cars, survival rates, even in catastrophic collisions like this result in minimal casualties, usually less than 5% aboard ."
fairportfan2 8 months ago
Somehow, I doubt that a steam locomotive that size would simply slam into the cars and jolt them off the tracks. It would seem more likely that it would plow through the last few cars and then derail from the buildup of debris.
Gunny761 10 months ago
It was after watching this scene as a boy that Steven Speilberg decided to become a movie director.
encinostalgia 10 months ago 2
Understand, the bad guy has a girlfriend on the train, and when he realizes she will be injured, he drive into the train to save her life. The clown (jimmy Stewart) is hiding from the law, as a doctor, he performed a mercy killing. It's really a good film, but the train wreck is well done. I hate to see all those miniature animals hurt.
PRR5406 10 months ago
Always loved this movie as a kid. They've been unable to make another circus movie like this.
leafyutube 11 months ago
Scale? I'd say O scale. This sequence shows the highest form of SLO-MO, old fashioned matte work, and rotoscoping. The locomotive smoke you see is rotoscoped painstakingly by airbrush. Then matted in. The blueish night background is also matted in. I think the car is matted in, being a bit big in scale to the locomotive.. The humans running from the rails after the crash are travelling mattes. Oh, the car driving into the locomotive? Rear screen projection. Just excellent.
animaven1 1 year ago
I saw this movie on tv when I was a kid, and I never forgot this train wreck sequence. In an age long before CG, it is a very realistic looking scene. Kudos to the production people for this one!
olentangy74 1 year ago
Looks like this time, the circus is NOT coming to town!
Owner4567 1 year ago 2
Only thing that let's it down is they decided to speed up the section in the womens carriage when the train hits. Looks silly !
godlek99 1 year ago
I am looking to "re-build Ringling Brothers Barnum And Bailey Combined Shows Trains like these In G-Scale. What type of Locomotive would this be to use like this one? A reply would be appreciated.
CIRCUSLOVER95 1 year ago
Hi ,it was an amazing show ,especially the train wreck , it would be nice rto really know how they do it
9005067 1 year ago
@9005067 : All done with miniatures. No crappy CGI back then, it was all done for real and by hand.
eimb1999 10 months ago
@9005067 : If you want to see how they do this stuff, look here on You Tube for videos called "Movie Magic Models and Miniatures" and "Movie Magic 7 action miniatures". Describes in detail how they did it before CGI ruined everything.
eimb1999 10 months ago
The mock ups are either HO or S Guage American Flyer and the Road name on the locomotive is Atlantic Coast Line ,either a 482 Mountain or a 484 Northern
9005067 1 year ago
@9005067 That's bigger than S - it's probably bigger than O, for that matter. It wouldn't surprise me if it's 1" (one inch to the foot, 1/12 scale). No way that you get that sort of smoke action in an HO or S locomotive, nor that detail level.
Also, staging that sort of elaborate wreck sequence in that small a scale is awkward, since you'd have to run the camera at 240 FPS (HO) 192 (S); you have to slow down the projection by the square root of the scale to look right.
fairportfan2 1 year ago
@fairportfan2 You are right they are 1" scale. There are photos of the actual models used in the movie in flickr. Just google " the greatest show on earth movie passenger cars" and you will find them.
ariels36 1 year ago
@ariels36 : Hey! Thanks for that heads up! Always nice to see pix of original filming miniatures!
eimb1999 10 months ago
Was this deriailment done with HO guage eqipment os S guage American Flyer as you can see the American Railroad Name ia Atlantic Coast line Railroad probably a 482 mountain or a 484 Northern steam locomotive
9005067 1 year ago
O.O Would that really happen!?
Pikman01 1 year ago
The only thing that really gives it away as a miniature is the lack of depth of field (things nearest the camera are blurry) and a bit of wobble on some bits. But the idea as "sorryosaurus rex" says about using an explosion is ... Why??? Why would the train explode (it's a steam engine) or the car (car's gas tank is in the rear, the car was struck head on) for that matter? Oops... I see someone else addressed that below as well. Okay I'll reinforce it.
eimb1999 1 year ago
@eimb1999 More than depth of field - the diorama is pretty obviously a miniature set, too, and they didn't get the time scaling exactly right (leading to that wobble/jerkiness you mention. Miniature shots had to be shot over-cranked so that, when projected at 24 FPS, they are slowed down by a factor equal to the square root of the scale factor.
Cars don't explode, except under the most unusual conditions (not even when on fire), no matter what Hollywood tells us.
No - not even Pintos
fairportfan2 1 year ago
They need to remake this movie. Seriously.. but keep it period to 1952.
machinegunangel 1 year ago
@machinegunangel : Why remake it? Would you re-paint the Mona Lisa too? if they remake it they'll pollute it all up with political correctness and fake CG crap, but you won't see anything because they'll have the camera shaking all over the damned place like they do with everything today.
eimb1999 1 year ago
I have always been fascinated with this footage. The models were superb especially as this was in 1952! Wonder what became of all those scale models?
Taaaarail 1 year ago
Yes, realistic and technically accurate. Engineer gave one long, three short (whistle signal to rear end crew to provide rear protection, this was before radios). And the cause of the accident is made to appear as lack of flagging, which the rear flagmen was about to provide if he hadn't been taken out..... Great director. Yes, big hole it refers to the largest port on the brake stand which opens the entire brake line. Another fun term I've heard is "wipe the clock".
bourdonboy 1 year ago
does big hole it mean the same as dump the air?
Engineer5344 1 year ago
@Engineer5344 Yep. Or "Dynamite it!"
fairportfan2 1 year ago
That is one devestating train crash
EmSTrO7x3 1 year ago
Cryin' shame . . . completely Casey Jones-ed it . . . good thing it's just a movie.
SwampDaddy7 1 year ago 2
That guy and his car got OWNED!!
startours1 2 years ago 2
i feel sorry for the animals aboard the train
brickmaster24 2 years ago
@brickmaster24 : Yeah, fuck the worthless humans, eh? :-P
eimb1999 1 year ago
Good ol' scale models.
KazzRacer 2 years ago 3
WOW!!! TOTALLY AWESOME at 2:39! Except for two things. Number 1: They could have used an explosion. Number 2: It's foolish to drive a car towards an oncoming train.
sorryosaurusrex 2 years ago 7
@sorryosaurusrex Where would an explosion come from?
Hollywood tradition to the contrary notwithstanding, cars don't explode. Ask a professional firefighter.
And that's a steam locomotive. I suppose the boiler could burst, which would be about the same as an explosion, but wouldn't necessarily happen.
fairportfan2 1 year ago
@sorryosaurusrex the guy in the car should have won the darwin award!
pennyf9 1 year ago
Still gives me chills whenever viewing this scene. Though the locomotives and passenger cars were obviously models, the wreck sequence looked pretty convincing, especially since the camera was slowed down giving the impression that tons of steel was being pushed, twisted, and crushed. The scale looked like either O or #1, but that's my guess.
ACLTony 2 years ago
@ACLTony I'm guessing 1/8.
You have to overcrank the camera (which gives slow motion), in order to get realistic effects. That is - an object falling free for two seconds falls 64 feet; if it's 1/2 scale, that's 128 feet in proportion. A full-size object falling 128 feet would take 2.8 seconds - so you have to slow down the speed by 1.4, the square root of the scale factor.
Emmett Kelly said that the fullsize set of the aftermath was so realistic it gave him chills.
fairportfan2 1 year ago
@fairportfan2 OK, I understand now. From what you're stating, the camera was speeded up to a specific pre-calculated speed setting and then when played back at a normal speed the sequence is slowed down greatly but to our eyes it would appear normal. Am I in the ball park?
ACLTony 1 year ago
@ACLTony Yep - that's how it works.
I just saw Iron Man 2 and it included the trailer for "Super 8", which rather closely mirrors the crash here.
A fun story about effects work (if you can find it) would be about the first "Die Hard" film, and what they did to do the elevator explosion.
fairportfan2 1 year ago
@ACLTony Right.
fairportfan2 1 year ago
Very well done indeed!
WhyAyeMann 2 years ago
Although a theatrical production of such a wreck, it is very realistic and technically accurate.
I work in the railroad industry, and investigate collisions and derailments. Some of the modern signal systems employed today, prevent this type of accident. Fortunately, because of the solid structures of American passenger cars, survival rates, even in catastrophic collisions like this result in minimal casualties, usually less than 5% aboard .
Exec3549 2 years ago 12
@Exec3549 I like the little touches - the fireman shouting "Big hole it!" before the engineer dynamites the train. Not that it would do all that much good in that sort of situation...
fairportfan2 1 year ago