Nice to hear Sir Henry Cecil say that should Black Caviar be entered for the Queen Anne then he would like to see Frankel run in that instead of the Prince Of Wales.
That;s why Frankel won't race B.C he couldn't afford to loose...They will do the smart thing, cherry pick another 5 or 6 races and then retire him, look for him to race in a group 2 over the 2000 metres..Part of the plan is to get him to win over the 10f before retirement
It has been estimated by UK breeding industry experts that if Frankel remains unbeaten, he will be worth £100m. As CharlesOlney23 rightly pointed out, it is at stud where our champion racehorses generate the most money for their owners.
You are just stating the very obvious. Also not your champion racehorses but every countries' champion stallion racehorses. If Black Caviar was a stallion they would have retired her already.
All Too Hard, as a 2 yo, only won his second race on the weekend in a Group 2. Being a half brother to Black Caviar he is already worth as much as her. If he wins a group 1 in the future which is likely he will be worth 10 times more. That's why his owner paid $1m for him.
The better the prize money the more you can charge at stud our Golden Slipper is worth 3.5 million dollars and is a race for two year old's, thus why part of the reason we have the best sprinters in the world .for a colt to win that race he's automatically worth 10 million..there are some wealthy investors and breeders with an vested interest in racing horses here..then when you do get a good one that can stay, generally they are weighted out of races like the Melbourne Cup due to their loot
If Black Caviar was a colt then nobody would be going on about how little prize money there is in British racing. Surely £1.3million is enough for the Champions Stakes? End of the day prize money is nothing to good horses. Galileo won £1,600,00 but has made about a hundred times that at stud. That's where the money is. Cheap races but the nest racehorses contesting them is good enough for anybody. Black Caviar will only ever make a pittance of what Frankel will make for the Prince.
@CharlesOlney23 You are missing the point big time. Look at the likes of Fastnet Rock, Redoute's Choice, Encosta De Lago, More Than Ready, Commands, Bel Espirit etc etc. They all make their stud farms millions. Since 2008 1.1 million horses have started in a race in Australia. Say approx 1/2 are male. Thats 1/2 million horses and probably a million owners (with syndication). There are maybe 100 stallions in Australia that make money out of 500,000 male horses who have raced in the......(cont)
@leedelaney70 last 4 years alone. So the chances of buying into a horse that can go on and become a successful stallion are somewhere around 5,000/1 at best, when you consider I've only gone back 4 years. Do you honestly believe thats why people buy horses ? It's attractive for owners in Australia as we race for big prizemoney, week in week out. The money spent to buy a horse can be recouped with 1 metro win in the middle of winter !! This is why the racing industry is thriving in Aust...(cont)
@leedelaney70 and is not dominated by a few. We have big horse numbers (stud farms with money) as we run for big money (making it attractive to own therefore many owners). The more participants (owners) gives you more depth and bigger field sizes which ensures greater betting turnover (giving value to punters). This high betting turnover ensures raceclubs (who put on the show & receive a % of turnover) have increased revenue & thus putting surplus monies back into prizemoney !! Everybody wins...
@leedelaney70 Oh yes I agree with you. It made my day when I saw that Look Busy won a Group 1 at Newmarket 2 years ago when he was owned by a lollipop man and was already gelded. I was just responding to people saying that Frankel won't win as much money as Black Caviar and therefore his wins a worth less.
A lot of horses race up to their potential after being gelded and it's mostly recommended by their trainers to owners. What would you prefer a stallion that never won any major races or a gelding that's won a Group 1?
Frankel is a champion 2 yo and champion 3 yo but he needs to prove it as a 4 yo as a champion racehorse in open class company. We all expect him to be restricted to races between 1m - 10f but I would love to see him run and win the Arc.
I also think with 20/20 it was a big task for Rain affair to enter his first group 1 that way of going...I think they should have set him for the T.J smith...I think he'll give Haylist a bit of a fright in that race, especially if it's raining!
@@JPD639 I think in our Doncaster Frankel would have to carry 58kg, say More joyous would carry 57, Atlantic Jewel 52 and Manawanui 50kg...If he could beat them three under those conditions I would take my hat off to him? and yes I had a couple of dollars on all too hard..looked very impressive, not sure if they will run him in the golden slipper..I think there looking at the Caufield Guinness later on..Would be a big chance if he run's amazing run yesterday looks like we have another one!
@JPD639 How good was it to see Hay List triumph today?! (rhetorical) Just awesome! I was at the track and couldn't contain the jubilation. ATH was the next best performance of the day - he's a gem. Just to clarify though, his first race was actually 1100m.
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar Thanks for clarifying that mate. I was thinking of a different race that was on the same card that day. I was really happy for Hay List too. I've been a big fan of him since he was running trails in Western Australia. Keep a lookout for *Barakey* later this year I think his the real deal and being compared to as the next HL. his videos are on youtube.
Frankel has raced three times over 7 furlongs. His first, as a two year old, was at Doncaster against 2 opponents, in which he won by a very easy 13 lengths, and in a very fast time. Later on in his two year old season, he again dropped back to 7 furlongs after winning the 1 mile Royal Lodge Stakes at Ascot. This time he beat a very strong field in Britain's top 2 year old race at Newmarket, The Dewhurst Stakes. His next race, as a 3 yr old, was the 7f Greenham Stakes, which he won by 4 lengths.
@JPD639 What rain affair does show from his Sydney record of 10/11... you can look good against average sprinters and even break records, ..but you have to handle the pressure, I think Frankel is like Haylist at the 6 and 7, but world class and better over the 8 and I think what has been flattering Frankel's performances over the 6 and 7..is the lack of sprinters in the U.K. ..he wouldn't get away with it in our Doncaster for example, he'd be taken on all the way.
@BalmainBucko "I think what has been flattering Frankel's performances over the 6 and 7..is the lack of sprinters in the U.K".... I dont think Frankel raced 6f-7f. Frankel is World class. Best miler I've ever seen. If he raced in the Doncaster Hcp I cant see any aus horses giving him trouble apart from Atlantic Jewel and Manawanui.
@BalmainBucko Did you see BC half brother today *All Too Hard*? WOW he looked impressive in his 2 runs now. I had Samaready winning the Golden Slipper but now I have my doubts after seeing All too Hards 2 races. I'd still have Samaready favourite considering both ATH races have been at 7f and not 6f.
Dark Caviar said, " Without pace makers like they always do in Europe ... " No DC, they don't ALWAYS do. Certain trainers like Aidan O'Brien use pacemakers in Group 1 races to ensure a fast run race. He does not use them all the time though. Henry Cecil rarely uses pacemakers and only used a pacemaker in the St James Palace Stakes and the QEII; again, so that those mile races would be run at a strong gallop throughout. Frankel made his own running in the 2,000 Guineas and the Sussex Stakes.
To be honest I dont see Rain Affair having success outside Sydney. Even with Sepoy going overseas, Hay List getting older nd Black Caviar going overseas and maybe after that retiring after 2012. Theres gonna be tough opposition for him like the 2yo who will be 3yo when our spring carnival comes like Samaready and All Too Hard. Even Barakey who is undefeated 6 from 6 will make it hard for him. I didnt mind Rain Affair until his trainer opened his mouth.
I can only think of 1 race Hay List flopped in, and that was 2010 Patinac Farm Classic when he faced BC for the first time. I was so happy when he won today.
On another note. Mr pride (Rain affair trainer) sounded so arrogant in a interview saying "if he ( RA) runs he'll win". Completely desrespectful of the opposition. When you consider RA has never run against the quality he came up against today. Rain Affair was found out.
Well, you would probably say in any other era, Haylist was an out and out champion..that's how good B.C..Is, to come back from 1400 and beat a horse like him after only 1 horse in 128 other's has done it and won..is incredible..the owner of Haylist reckons there's not much between them in speed..but B.C is just mentally more tougher...and more durable
@BalmainBucko Hay List IS a out and out champion. Put it this way if he wasnt running in the same era as BC, he would have a extra 4 G1s to his name (4 races he came 2nd to her), and his consistancy over multiple years proves what a champion he is in his own right. Even recent sprint aus champions like Starspangledbanner, Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast didnt perform to the same high level of consistancy in there careers. Unfortunate for HL his run in to the greatest sprinter of all time.
Hay List wins against one of the best fields ever assembled in the Group 1 1200m The Newmarket Hcp carrying 58.5kg's !!!!! How good is Black Caviar ?????
@DarkCaviar Well I guess in the modern era an unbeaten horse in group company over 3 or 4 years is un heard off...she could retire 30/30 who knows...so I suppose there keeping that in the back of their minds along with the thoughts of more ground and the what if factor?...if she got beat bad at 1600, there be those critics with the old we told you say..but still, I hope they give it a go!..I think she'll get 1600 no worries.
@DarkCaviar I agree, after her 20/20 and Ascot what else does she have to prove in races under 1400? that's why any thoughts of more ground would likely be in something like the George Ryder..perhaps against More Joyess?.this would be an interesting clash if she fell over the line or loss to her, you would stay with the shorts after that..but what if she destroys More Joyess like the rest of them?..I think Moody will take her along like this and the Great Mare will tell him how far she can run?
I have no doubt BC is as effective at 1400m as 1200m. Her momentum will carry her through even if she hits a brick wall at the 100m mark in a strongly run race. I just would love her proving it against top oppositions like you mentioned in More Joyeous at up to a mile. For example today's Chipping Norton at 1600m with Danleigh , Shootout, Pinker pinker and Trusting all proven milers at Group 1 level. I just don't know how important her winning streak is to her owners.
@regginald81..It will be interesting to see what both horses end up accomplishing..I think Peter Moody and the owners of B.C.are making sure that she does get 20/20..as from a business prospective this will secure top dollar for her off spring...I think the un known factor bugs them as much as us and from Ascot, I would not be surprise to see her step up to a distance1500 george Ryder if she won with a leg in the air who knows what next? 1800 u/wood stakes? these group 1's are not over strong!
20/20 is the most important goal so BC takes the modern day record from Zenyatta to cement her greatness. That's why Peter Moody wanted to win her 20th race in Australia. It will not add any more value to her as a broodmare unless she wins a big 1600m race, not to mention the Cox Plate which would be the ultimate.
Without pace makers like they always do in Europe she could win a lot of WFA races at a mile in Australia.
@regginald81 I agree with what your saying...1 great win don't make you a champion, nor does one season..Don't get me wrong I think Frankel would probably beat B.C over 1600,as like she would beat him over 1400, but 9 from 9 and just 1 season is great..but you can't declare an out and out champion just on 1 season...if he wins say the next 8/9 at the same token the one loss depending on what race is was wouldn't detract much from he's greatness!
@BalmainBucko I agree that Frankel would be the likely winner over 1600 and BC would be the likely winner over 1200m, i think it would be very tight over 1400, I'd like to see her run in a truly run 1400m before passing judgement over that distance because if the met in this theoretical race then he would have to make it a test of stamina, anything else and he would just be a sitting duck. I agree with what you are saying though, he needs another stellar season to be remembered as one of the
@BalmainBucko all time greats. Like BC running a true 1400 race I too want to see Frankel pushed when he steps up to 10f this year. If he wins a 10f race where they make it into a sprint then i will be very disappointed. Like BC this is where he may be vunerable and its the only way we will know whether he really gets 10f. If he does and wins like has been over a mile then his place in history will be well and truly cemented
When BC won her 7f race in 1:25 I was totally disappointed. The race caller was shocked when he checked the winning time hoping to boast her greatness more.
Had she won in 1:21-1:22 it would have proved she is as effective in 7f as 5f-6f but 1:25 proved nothing. She could have easily won that same race if it was a 10f race if such a slow tempo is guaranteed!
@Thefightingcelt Snow Fairy didn't win a Japan Cup. She won a g1 mares race at Kyoto two years in a row and a Hong Kong cup at Sha tin. And by the way Balmarino wasn't a aussie horse he was bred, owned and trained in NZ.
@SoulSurvivor79 Yes, but it was a Group 1... the QEII Cup in Japan. In fact, she won that race in consecutive years - and still had to travel half around the world to do it. I know all about Balmerino. He, like So You Think and Phar Lap, Tulloch,Sunline ... and many other horses that have raced many times in Australia, were/are bred in New Zealand.
The QEII Cup was a much weaker race compared to the Japan Cup. Snow Fairy didn't even enter the Japan Cup she was too scared of the oppositions which included Danedream that trounced her by 5 lengths in the Arc. Funny enough Snow Fairy was then scratched from the HK International Vase. The Arc winner Danedream was beaten out of sight into sixth place in the Japan Cup. Even an old war horse closed to retirement managed third.
@DarkCaviar I don't think that off the back of a single scintilating peformance in the Arc anybody believes that Danedream is some kind of superhorse. Also one bad performance from Danedream does not bring into doubt the quality of European horse which is what is sounds like you are getting at. its always difficult to gauge when horses travel overseas, i mean look at Grand Prix Boss at Ascot, he wasn't exactly pulling down any trees.
No, I am not doubting the quality of the European horses. Neither do I think Danedream is a super horse. It was a super win in the Arc and that was it. No way Danedream could repeat that while Frankel repeats it again and again. The only thing I wanted to see from frankel is for him to prove his greatness in open company as a 4yo.
My post was a direct reply to ThefightingCelt for his biased comments about Snow Fairy being a mare and winning in Japan.
A statistic to bear in mind is that Peter Moody has come over to Royal Ascot and Newmarket ( July Cup ) and left empty handed each time. Ok, he hasn't had a horse of Black Caviar's class before ,and although he said, in his opinion, that fillies and mares don't travel abroad as well as male horses, I think the French and UK trainers of Goldikova ( Breeders Cup ) and Snow Fairy ( Japan Cup ) might disagree with him on that point. Maybe the Aussie trainer is just getting his excuses in early.
@ThefightingCelt you are 4/5th's of 5/8th's of a complete goose !!! Just report on the facts idiot, instead of CONTINUALLY making it up as you go along. In June the proof is in the pudding......I'm tipping you will be on holidays then !!
@leedelaney70 You've not been taking your daily medication again. What have you been told. No wonder you're talking to yourself. S'truth ! We don't have cents in the Great Britain; we have real money - ££££££££££££s and pence !
@ThefightingCelt I would rather run for a million Aussie dollars than a hundred thousand pounds every day of the week ! Your races are worth a pittance !!!! FACT !!
Just watched the replay of the 2011 newmarket and B.C Beat star witness by 10 lengths with 58 kg on her back..and star witness was beaten by a head after blowing the start in the king stand last year.WOW!..Look out Ascot...@JPD..your right, rain affair has to win to live up to the hype..something tells me though he just might? loves the wet more I think!
@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
Black Caviar will lose first. Sir Henry Cecil said the other day he wouldn't swap Frankel for any horse on Earth - even BC. Frankel's first race will be at a mile in The Lockinge Stakes - the traditional seasonal starting point for the older milers. He will probably face the likes of Excelebration, Strong Suit et al and will again beat them senseless. After that he will run over 10f at Royal Ascot, in the Prince Of Wales Stakes and then probably onto The Eclipse Stakes at Sandown. All group 1s
@ThefightingCelt Funny that Frankel races Excelebration again for the 4th time and his only just 4. Black caviar got so much crap from euros about racing Hay List 4 times last season now 5 after 2012 Lightning stakes.
Why bring up who Sir Henry Cecil would choose if he had to pick between Frankel an BC? of course his gonna choose Frankel like Moody would choose BC.
No disrespect towards Frankel I think his a brilliant horse like BC.
@ThefightingCelt That's your evidence - who Sir Henry would choose? That's hardly "checkmate" Mr Celt. I'm sure Mr Moody elects to hang onto Black Cav given the ultimatum. In which of Frankel races this prep do you foresee him being the most vulnerable? Though her plans are still a little cloudy, I reckon Black Cav comfortably notches up her 20th win in Adelaide (The Goodwood). She'll be up against the challenges that come with travel in the Diamond Jubilee, so there will be inherent risk there.
Well there's the question we should really be debating - which horse will likely LOSE first? Nevermind a Frankel v Black Cav race; we are all cluey enough to realise that ain't gonna happen. But who loses first? UK fans, talk us through Frankel's upcoming prep.
I'm getting that impression about rain affair myself, could be value to leave Haylist out of the trifecta, and flexi box the other 6 chances..poor hay list has to contend with a field of 23...I can't see him winning it.
yeah your probably right JPD..I just think Peter Moody wants to take her to her limit at some point..nothing would surprise me though if they went that way...chances are though, they'll probably want to retire her undefeated up to 1600 perhaps?
The one that worry's me is rain affair..this is a different race of coarse, but he loves the wet..ran 1.10 for 1200 on a slow track..WTF..That time is ok for a good track?
@BalmainBucko Rain Affair is the real deal and he looks a good chance to topple Hay List. Lone Rock (if dry) & Bel Sprinter are the best light weight hopes and Eagle Falls (if dry) is the best roughie imo. You could easily back them all and still get a result......
@BalmainBucko Rain Affair can handle wet or dry, Rain affair probably needs to win or at least place in the Newmarket considering the reasonable weight his got for a horse with his record to back up the hype surrounding him.
The Goodwood or the BTC Cup at Doomben, both on May 12 are the 2 main candidates for her next start. nothing is confirmed yet. I doubt BC will go for the Cox Plate. her sire Bel Esprit was smashed at that race by Northerly. Too risky trying her at 10f Cox Plate later this year she'll be at the critical age of 6
I agree JPD..That's a tall order for Haylist and I agree..you hope he wins but he only beat Foxwedge by 2 lengths and has to give him 8 kg..I know the trainer didn't want to run him but the owner over ruled!
Any Idea where B.C will run in her next start? and in regards to Ascot the Jubilee is her main mission..I still think there's a slim chance of her running 1600 over there, not to take on Frankel but perhaps give her a hit out there before returning here for a possible tilt at the cox plate..it might even be a group 2 race should it fit into the plans..If Peter Moody has demonstrated one thing...he does change he's mind on the trot?
Get on Foxwedge in the New market guys..50.kg and 7 to 1 what a price....and what a great race it will be.... real interesting to see rain affair compete;s...and see how haylist goes with the top weight...great horse, but I think he's giving some good horse's too much weight!
@BalmainBucko The 2012 Newmarket hcp is wide open now considering the massive weight they gave Hay List. The handicapper based Hay List weight on Black caviar if she ran. Its a absolute joke that hay List has to carry 58 and a half kilos. His barely ran a race in the lst 12 months. Foxwedge at 50kg is really good odds his been crying out for more distance.
How many of these horse were voted champion two and three year old?..usually the sprinters stitch up the 2 year old's leaving the champion middle distances horse's having a crack at it when there three..my whole point with Occky..he's a leg up on all of them I think? even the great tulloch's 2 year old record was not enough to win him that crown...I think Occky winning a cox plate with the triple crown and Mercedes classic puts him above all of them except kingston town of coarse.
Then you have the modern day records... kingston town who won 14 group 1's over 5 or 6 years...Black Caviar 9 group 1's over 2 or 3 years...Occky 5 group 1's in one year on top of being voted two and three year old of the year..all along I have never said he was better than Tulloch or Kingston town..what I have said pick three of the best 2 and 3 year old's ever... and put them in a basket, Occky deserves to be there with them based on he's 2 and 3 year old seasons.
@BalmainBucko I'm not as certain as you that Octagonal would be a lock. Tulloch would be on the back of his outstanding 3yo season and Vain would be on the back of his outstanding 2 and 3yo seasons. That leaves 1 more spot, Kingston Town, Dulcify, Manikato, Sepoy, Todman, Bounding Away, Octagonal etc
This is facts. Tulloch won the Derby slam, was 1 race from winning the triple crown had he raced the Canterbury. Won the AJC Derby, Rosehill Guineas, Victoria Derby, QTC Derby stakes (now Queensland Derby), Caulfield Guineas, Caulfield Cup, All Aged Stakes, Queen Elizabeth Stakes, Chipping Norton Stakes and Rawson Stakes ( now known as the Ranvet stakes), all G1 races. Throw in VRC st Leger stakes and VRC C.B. Fisher Plate which used to be G1 races. Thats 12 G1 for Tulloch. 5 G1 for Octagonal.
To win that race with all those circumstances against him is equal to Seretariat's run in the belmont..Phar lap won the richest race in the world at that time.
@leedelaney70 yes I agree too that Tulloch deserves all the accolades..he was our best horse along with phar lap..check out phar laps win in America in 1939..near last, 4 wide in running taken to the lead at the 1000 meters, headed in the straight and fought back to win...I too am in orr of Secretariat, he's win in the belmont was freakish..but considering Phar lap hoped on a boat for two months..was driven by a float for 500 miles, had problems with he's feet and couldn't gallop (con)
@BalmainBucko yes Phar Lap was a superior 'older horse' and easily in the top 10 horses of all time. He won 32 of his last 35 races (with two 2nds over unsuitably short 1600m) incl Melb Cup, 2 Cox Plates, Agua Caliente Hcp (worlds richest race) where he won with a cracked hoof in track record time with top weight after travelling there by ship for 10 weeks. His most remarkable feat was winning on all 4 days of the Flemington Spring Carnival. 4 starts for 4 wins in the space of a week
And remember Saintly lost 5 from 5 against Occy as a three year old and went on and won a melbourne cup easily..my point all along is not to knock Tulloch but just put forward my opinion about he's ability as a two and three year old.
@BalmainBucko Saintly lost 3 from 3 to Occy not 5. Saintly was better racing in Victoria rather then NSW. Now your reading formlines talking about what Saintly did in the MC at 4yo?. Tulloch missed his entire 4yo season through a stomach virus. Had he not missed that year he probably would be regarded on par with Phar Lap, couse he would have dominated as a 4yoif you read formlines when he cameback at 5yo.You also keep bringing up the 2yo Golden Slipper, for the last time that is not a 3yo race.
6,1 half the other we'll never know, as I said the A.J.C Derby Occy won was quicker than Tulloch's..running home 33.3 est..over 2500 hundred in the V.R.C with 57kg on your back and dropping to 47 kg in the melbourne cup? wouldn't of hurt him and imagine a horse winning the Golden slipper, cox plate, melbourne cup, and triple crown at the age of three what would we be calling him.yes I know he didn't do it but he almost did....he's was up there with the best three year olds no doubt in my mind
@BalmainBucko yes I agree the big O is up there with the best 3yo's but Tulloch IS UNQUESTIONABLY THE BEST 3yo this country has ever seen. He's up there with the best 3yo's the world has ever seen. He's up there with the Secretariat's and Sea Bird II's of this world. His 3yo year produced 14 wins from 16 starts (with 2 placings) incl 12 Group 1 wins (7 against open class horses)
My point is this..If tulloch was in that derby against Occy Saintly and co..he may have beat them, but it would be very close...to say Octaganal was inferior as a three year old is suggesting Tulloch would win that derby with his head on he's chest...Rubbish, the experts are calling that derby the race of the century!
Well lets go down that path.. Octagonal should have beaten nothinliecadane in the V.R.C..He gave him 7 lenghts at the 2 furlongs and ran him down to a length..nothinliecadane ran home the last 600 in 34 flat from the front...which meant he walked and sprinted and nothing over 2500 meters can come from 7 lengths back and win from that sectional..Occy must have run 33.3 himself to get with in a length..the jockey was sacked, so if occy won does he go on and win the melbourne cup?..
@BalmainBucko It's not the same. Occy lost by a lenght, while Tulloch won by 8l to a horse that came second in the MC by a neck. Nothin' Leica Dane came 2nd in the MC in 1995 to Doreimus, beat Nothin' Leica Dane by 5l,.
@BalmainBucko very pertinent point you make here..... Octagonal should/could have beaten Nothin Leica Dane in the Derby but he DIDN'T. NLD ran 2nd in the Cup 3 days later beaten 4l. Tulloch thrashed Prince Darius by 8l in the Derby. Prince Darius ran 2nd in the Cup 3 days later beaten a head !
@leedelaney70 Tulloch would have won the Melb Cup easily bearing in mind he had already beaten most of the same horses in the Caulfield Cup by 2l in world record time 2 1/2 weeks prior (I know we'll never know) whereas Octagonal would not only have had to reverse his defeat at the hands of Nothin Leica Dane but he would have also had to beat Doriemus who was 4l in front of NLD. Doubt it
Also octagonal did hold the track record over 10 furlongs at Canterbury and he's win in the A.J.C derby was the fastest ever...the place getters, nothin liecadane ran 2nd as a three year old in the melbourne cup...Filante held the 1600 metre track record at Randwick and Saintly A COX PLATE melbourne cup double winner who from Bart's mouth was probably the best horse he had..where champions in their own right..his win in the Derby I think from memory was achieved after running 3 weeks in a row
I was referring to 3 year old and prior, not sure if Mc woodsy meant the same, ..but as a two year old tulloch got beaten by Toddman over 6 furlongs by 6 lengths as opposed to Octagonal who should have won the golden slipper going down a nose..occy won the sire's and was crowned 2 year old of the season Tulloch wasn't crowned 2 year old of the season..as a three year old Occy won the triple crown .tulloch didn't..so to say occy was inferior to tulloch as a 3 year old an prior is way of the mark
@BalmainBucko no mate you are way off the mark actually. For starters for decades but in particular 1957, Tulloch's 3yo year, the AJC Derby was run in the spring, along with the Rosehill Guineas. Tulloch won BOTH (incl Derby by 6l breaking Phar Lap's track record). The Canterbury Guineas was held in the autumn. Tulloch didn't run in the Canterbury Guineas ! Now are ALL held in the autumn. I think his victory in the Caulfield Guineas that spring more than makes up for.....(cont)
@leedelaney70 (cont).....him not running in the Canterbury Guineas. The Caulfield Guineas is a much much stronger race. In that same spring of his 3yo year he also won Caulfield Cup (running a world record time), VRC Victoria Derby by 8l beating Prince Darius (who then came out 3 days later to run 2nd in the Melb Cup beaten a head). He then won the CB Fisher Plate (The Emirates Stks) then 7 days later won the QTC Queensland Derby by 7l. Thats not to mention the autumn !!!!!
@BalmainBucko Tulloch didnt win the triple crown only becouse he didnt contest Canterbury Guineas, he won the other 2 leg (Rosehill Guineas and AJC derby). Tulloch won the Derby slam instead. Also Toddman was the champion sprinter of the time and won 10 of his 12 starts with a 2nd placing, and the race he was unplaced was when he broke down in the Hill stakes. Tulloch gave Toddman his only true defeat at 7f the race before they raced at 6f. No shame in losing to a specialist sprinter.
@JPD639 It should also be noted Todman is in the Hall of Fame. He was a champion in his own right but Tulloch still was able to beat him at 1400m (7f)
@BalmainBucko Also you keep talking about Octagonal *should of won Golden Slipper*. fact is he didnt and was defated by a Flying Spur who was nothing like a Toddman. If you want to debate of what should haves, then Tulloch should have won the Melbourne Cup in his 3yo season had the handicapper not given him a ridiculous weight. The horse that came 2nd in the MC Prince Darius lost by a neck. PD lost by 8l to Tulloch in the lead up race VRC derby just a few day earlier.
Putting it another way...if you multiply todays prize money and times it by the races they won up to a three year old..Octaganol would have earned the most out of the three of them probably because of he's second in the golden slipper and second in the victoria derby ..he should have won the slipper...and for a three year old..2nd in the slipper..won a cox plate and won a A.J.C Derby in the fastest time and the triple crown..along with the Mercedes..nothing delusional about that achievement..
@BalmainBucko Mate what kinda stats are u throwing? If your trying to compare Octagonal to Tulloch 3yo stats, stop bringing up the Golden Slipper that's a 2yo race.
I do admit Octagonal had a very good 3yo season but still inferior to Tulloch. my original response was for Mcwoodsy7 who stated *best 3yo Australia ever produced was Octagonal*
I'm only suggesting his three year old record was comparable to tulloch and the king not he's overall performance..he didn't really come back quite as good as a four year old..when I refer to the same basket once again I'm not saying he's better I'm referring to basket as in our best ever three year olds...I said the crop he beat where almost chanpion's in there own right...so please don't read between the lines...had he won a Golden slipper...and he was a un lucky second I may think different.
@BalmainBucko There has not been a horse yet who has matched or surpassed Tulloch's deeds as a 3yo. Octagonal was a champion 3yo as you said but Tulloch was in a different league. It could be reasonably argued Vain was up there. He won the Freeway Stks (Manikato), Ascot Vale Stks, Caulfield Guineas then Craven A Stks (Salinger) by 12l, Linlithgow Stks (Patinack Classic) by 6l and then George Adams Hcp (The Emirates) carrying 10 pounds OVER WFA as a 3yo. Last 3 wins were in 7 days
Tulloch is considered the 3rd best racehorse to ever grace Australasia, behind the Great Phar Lap and Carbine. Anyone who says Octangonal was in the same bracket as Tulloch is delusional.
Post WW II, Timeform figures indicate that Tulloch (138 ) is the highest rated Australian thoroughbred, followed by Kingston Town ( 137 ) Manikato ( 136 ) and Black Caviar ( 135 ). Pat Glennon, the hall of fame Australian jockey rode Melbourne Cup winners, Comic Court and McDougall. He said after he retired that neither of those 2 horses, or any other horse he had ridden or seen in Australia could have beaten the brilliant 1965 European champion, Sea-Bird; the horse he considered the best ever.
I think it;s fair to say Octagonal as a three year old was in the same basket as Tulloch and kingston town...although no doubting the horses Octagonal beat are better then the crop Tulloch and Kingstown beat...but Occy didn't go on to the heights of the other two as a four year old..he defiantly was burnt out as a three year old!
@BalmainBucko with respect but surely you are kidding mate. Tulloch won 14 of 16 starts (with one 2nd & one 3rd) as a 3yo and beat the older horses 7 times ! He continually thrashed Prince Darius who would have been a champion in any other era (he beat Tulloch twice and finished a neck 2nd in Melb Cup as a 3yo). Some of the older horses he beat incl MacDougal (Metrop & Melb Cup winner), Macs Amber (Chipping Norton & Toorak), Monte Carlo (AJC & VRC Derby, Mackinninon Stks)...(cont)
@leedelaney70 (cont)....Sailors Guide (AJC Derby, Mackinnon Stks, DC International in USA), Caranna (AJC Derby, Caulfield & Rosehil Guineas) etc He also broke Phar Lap's track record in winning AJC Derby and broke world record for mile 1/2 on turf in winning Caulfield Cup as an early 3yo. Tulloch did not race for almost 2 years due to a mystery illness. He comeback & won 15 more races incl Cox Plate, Mackinnon Stks, 2 Queen Elizabeth Stks etc He was only ONCE unplaced.....(cont)
@leedelaney70 (cont) in 53 starts incl 36 wins when asked to carry 10 stone 1 pound (64kg's) in Melb Cup, a race he would have bolted in as a 3yo. As a measure of how good he was TJ Smith always maintained Tulloch was better than Kingston Town & he would know - he trained them both. With respect to Octagonal but he should not be mentioned in the same breath as Tulloch or Kingston Town
Best three year old horse Australia ever produced was Octagonal..thing about him the crop of three years old around him Saintly etc, where very good horses...and to think he should have won the golden slipper as a two year old and should have won the victoria derby..what a horse...the day he won the chipping norton he ran the last 600 in 32 something after taking of at the 800...geez that horse had a heart!
@McWoodsy7 Like many others, I was there at Flemington when he won the Australia Cup in 1997. A great finish and it was an emotional crowd who cheered the Big O back to scale. That was one of Australian racing's (many) really captivating moments.
@McWoodsy7 Occy was very good but Tulloch was Australia's best ever 3yo closely followed by Vain. Tulloch was the world's best 3yo in his 3yo year. He won Warwick Stks, Rosehill Guineas, AJC Derby (track record), Caulfield Guineas, Caulfield Cup (as 6/4 fav and broke world record for mile 1/2 on turf), VRC Derby, CB Fisher Plate, QTC Derby. In Autumn he won VRC St Leger, Rawson Stakes, Chipping Norton Stakes, AJC St Leger, All Aged Stakes & AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes.......(cont)
@leedelaney70 (cont)......Tulloch beat Prince Darius in the VRC Derby by 8 lengths and was fav for the Melb Cup 3 days later but was scratched as his owner didn't want to run his 3yo over 2 miles. His trainer Tommy Smith wanted to run (some say he had a massive Cups Double going) but the owner had the final say and he was scratched. Prince Darius ran in the Cup and ran 2nd beaten a neck !! Fair to say he would have romped home in the Melbourne Cup. Now that's some 3yo !!
@CharlesOlney23 appears the only way to get Black Caviar beaten is hold a 'virtual race' and who does this ??? British based Timeform of course. Interesting BC can run 3 sub 11sec sectionals mid race in real life with more weight (2011 1200m Grp1 Newmarket Hcp with 58kg's) as well as a sub 10sec sectional between the 3f and the 2f at her last race track appearance and 19th consecutive win yet she cannot match Frankel's 11.5, 11.5, 10.9 & 11.1 sectionals in a virtual race (cont)..
@leedelaney70 (cont)....They have So You Think, a multiple Grp 1 winner @ 10f & Grp1 placed in a Melb Cup @ 16f, along with Atlantic Jewel, who's had 5 career starts for easy Grp1 wins at 8f (by 3 lengths) & 10f (by 10 lengths) in the field yet they don't have Hay List, who is a multiple Grp 1 winner at both 6f and 7f and has ran 2nd to Black Caviar in 5 Grp 1's. I love the concept but it was an ordinary production at best.......(cont)
@leedelaney70 (cont)....Not only did they get the make up of the field wrong, and quite possibly the result (according to actual sectionals), but they couldn't even give us a picture. Do yourself a favour and check out what Victoria Racing Club did with a virtual Greatest Ever Melbourne Cup. Search "greatest melbourne cup cup never run" on youtube. Thats how you do it !!
@leedelaney70 I never said it was absolutely what will happen but it gave people a view on how officials would view it and seeing how this clip is called "Black Caviar vs Frankel" it seemed right to give others to know how to watch it. It was 7f which means she would naturally run slower than her 5f races. Timeform did say that Black Caviar follows Frankel all the way and only loses the race because she was out battled in the final furlong. It was down to Frankel's stamina and extra kick.
@CharlesOlney23 I never said you said anything with relation to Timeform's virtual race. They were never going to have Black Caviar beating the horse who heads THEIR ratings were they ? Would make them look pretty stupid don't you think ? What they probably don't realise is they look stupid anyway. I used sectionals from a 6f race (Newmarket Hcp), a race in which she carried more weight (58kg's) and ......(cont)
@CharlesOlney23 (cont)....a race where she was being eased down. She could have EASILY ran FASTER !! Even her finishing sectionals in her only 1400m start of 10.64 & 11.07 where again she was being eased down & could have EASILY been FASTER are faster than the virtual race. So in real life she runs faster and with more weight than they had her going in a virtual race (remembering she could have easily gone faster still as she is only being cuddled). Defies logic !
@leedelaney70 I agree with you to an extent on this. The virtual race that Timeform staged was run at a faster pace than her 7f race and hence her finishing sectionals would naturally be slower. It was Frankel's pressure at the front that caused her to slow down. It's a pipe dream and so shouldn't really be taken seriously. Nice to watch though. I reckon that both will remain unbeaten in 2012 which is about 4/1 with WilliamHill.
Loudest noise the world will ever hear on a racecourse is simply the final two furlongs of the Grand National. The Cheltenham Gold Cup and The Derby get's loud but doesn't reach the same crescendo. Even beats the 2009 Eclipse.
@ThefightingCelt No lols from me then. :) Yeah, it's a shame that Australia and England are so far apart; I feel it's the push/pull combination of good prizemoney in Aust during Oct & Nov, coupled with the arduous journey of getting over to the UK. Truth be told though, our stayers wouldn't hold a candle to your Group 3 stocks, let alone your elite. We've witnessed the notable decline over the last 15 years and I'm sure it's not simply cyclical.
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar I commend your honesty and I will just as happily concede that our sprinters couldn't hold a candle to yours. We might have done 20 years ago, when the brilliant Dayjur was conquering all around him in Europe - but now the emphasis is very much geared towards breeding elite middle distance horses in order to win the top Group 1s. The opposite seems to be the case in Australia, where breeding the very best sprinters would appear to be de rigeur.
Actually she may not have raced might and power, but Lonhro did beat her, she was a champ, don't get me wrong, I'm just referring to those who may think she was the best ever...we have had many many great 10furlong horses, but as I said in regards to mares, she's right up there
@BalmainBucko NOBOBY here said Sunline was the best ever however I certainly take exception to anyboby who saw her to say they have seen 50 better. Her race record (2 Doncaster's, 2 Cox Plates, 2 All Ages Stks, 2 Coolmore Classics, 2 Waikato Sprints, Hong Kong Mile, beating Fairy King Prawn, Manikato Stks etc) stacks up favourably against 90% of champions. Northerly was a champion in his own right (2 Cox Plates, Caulfield Cup with top weight, 2 Australian Cups, Caulfield Stks etc)
@BalmainBocko When did Might & Power beat Sunline? I'm not sure I remember that. That day she spread-eagled the Cox Plate field in 2000 was just magic. Brian Martin: "...but this is awesome!"
Sunline got beat by Might and power, Northenly and Lonhro if that helps lining her up in regards to being the best...I would say she was a champion mare and the fact that she won in four different country's makes her one of the best..
@ThefightingCelt Not clear if that is a dig at me there. I don't really have an opinion on where Sunline fits into the global picture - I'll leave that to you and leedelaney . I'd be the first to put up my hand and say I'm not 'across' racing in Europe, Dubai, Japan, USA etc and so therefore not qualified to make a valid comparison. I do know however that facts are facts, and in order to facilitate an informed discussion we need to get them right where we can.
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar Yes, it was directed at young delaney. His lols irked me. As I said, it was his Sunline win statitics I was referring to, not her overall race record. I thought that was plain enough. I posted on another thread that Dermot Weld, after winning the MC with Vintage Crop, said that the Aussie trainers should now bring their best middle distance horses over to Europe to contest the King George and The Arc. Since then, none have, apart from ex OZ trained, SYT.
The uneducated usually sneer and jeer when confronted by a greater intellect, especially when losing the debate. I was responding to leedelaney ( the young impressionable oz kid ) about Sunline's Group 1 statistic. Anyhow, as I stated previously; the vast majority of Group 1s in Oz aren't worth a bean. Glorified handicaps most of them. No, I certainly do not rate her that highly. There are only a handful of NZ/OZ middle distance horses who would maybe make my top 100. Phar Lap, K Town, Carbine
@ThefightingCelt Sorry mate, not entering the debate on where she sits in the global sphere, but your Sunline information is incorrect. She started 48 times and had 32 wins (27 of them were stakes races and of those 13 were group 1s). She also ran second 9 times and was third 3 times.
@ThefightingCelt Well, case in point, Cirrus des Aigles. How closely did the UK follow his progress? (And what went wrong?) My mate who was over there said he was surprised by how restrained the crowd roar was in the closing stages of each race. I thought it was an interesting observation, given their passion for the punt. I know I certainly cheer that little bit louder if I've backed something with earnest.
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar Well, although he did win our Champion Stakes at Ascot ( previously run at Newmarket ) he is French trained, so the interest, from a British perspective wouldn't have been that high. He ran well to finish 5th. I think it was an American trained horse who won the race. The travelling, coupled with racing too soon after his Champion Stakes exertion probably took it's toll. Another French trained horse, Byword, finished down the field. For loudest cheers - Cheltenham in March !
@ThefightingCelt How about 120,000 people roaring at the track on Melbourne Cup day or Derby Day. They get the same and sometimes more to the Japan Cup as well...I can assure you thats a load cheer. As a matter of interest what sort of attendance do they get to Cheltenham ?
@leedelaney70 Let me tell you that I came back from Melbourne raving about how good I thought the atmosphere was at Flemington. I have relatives who actually played in one of the pipe bands before the racing began. There was a lot of fancy dress on show and although it was obvious that the vast majority didn't know one end of a horse from another, they were all having a great time. Cheltenham Festival is run over 4 days and can attract crowds of over 100,000 per day. Total bedlam when Irish win.
The International Race Day does bring interest - obviously to the racing aficiandos. We do follow their progress, but as the quality of horse we do send there is usually not top tier, the enthusiasm level is not so high as it would be for the big races in USA or Australia. Yes, the Hong Kong turnover is absolutely phenomenal - given their attendences, and of course, their predilection for gambling on anything that moves.
@ThefightingCelt Ah, I don't mean Hong Kong racing in general, but the international race day itself (in December). When the Brits send over their horses, does the racing public follow their progress? Ha, "two spiders"! Darn tootin' - the turnover figures from a non-descript midweek meeting at Happy Valley are huuuuge!
@ThefightingCelt Hey, I'd be interested to gauge, how is the international race day in Hong Kong viewed by the Brits (in terms of standard)? The Aussies usually send 3-4 horses over each year, so it gets a bit of coverage here. A mate of mine went last year and said it was a good experience.
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar We know all about Hong Kong but our view of the overall standard of racing there is not high and we tend not to send our good horses there. The Chinese would bet on two spiders crawling up a wall. We have a healthier regard for American, Japanese and Australian racing but obviously less so than British, French and Irish - which from a European angle, I lump all altogether, because we often compete against one other in each of our respective countries.
In fact, Sunline did venture as far as Honk Kong and Dubai. She won a mickey mouse race in Honk Kong ( in terms of opposition ) and then went to Dubai and racing over 9 and bit furlongs ( remember, she had won at a mile also ) she was beaten ( finished 3rd ) by Jim & Tonic, the well travelled French Miler, who was considered good but not top class. Even our two best milers of 2008 ( Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator ) beat the best horse in the world, Curlin (USA ) in the Breeders Cup Classic
@ThefightingCelt I respect your opinion, and I'm not going to buy into the "was Sunline the best in the world" debate, but I will say that 2400m (12f) was NEVER her 'go'. She was a great miler but was also capable of running out a strong 10f...but not beyond. I have agreed with (and learnt from) many things you have said in this forum, but not this. Sunline was certainly no 12f horse.
@thefightingcelt you are making it up as you go along. Sunline was a 7f - 10f horse !!! She never started in a race longer than 10f & she won 32 times !! The Arc is 12f do you seriously want us to believe that race was ever on the radar ? 8f was her pet distance. She won 2 Doncasters & Hong Kong Mile @ 8f & placed in Dubai Duty Free @ 1777m
@leedelaney70 I agree wholeheartedly. Mr Celt seems to have his finger right on the pulse 99% of the time, but then has these little slip-ups that make you question how 'across' Australian racing he really is. What he has just put forward is the equivalent of someone saying Frankel was invited over to Australia for the Newmarket Handicap (6f) but Prince Khalid Abdullah crapped himself and said no way cobber. Sunline was clearly never a 2400m horse, just as Frankel is clearly not a sprinter.
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar The Aussies and New Zealanders were proclaiming Sunline as the greatest horse on the planet. We sadi, well, come over to France in October and prove it. The fact that she excelled at 10f in Aus did not preclude her from running at 12f. Many great 10f performers have won Group1s at 12furlongs. Great or outstanding in Australia usually translates as good in Europe.
@ThefightingCelt She won 3 Group 1's at 1200m (6f) !!!!! Do you STILL think she could run a strong 2400m (12f ) ?? If she could get 2400m she would have went to the Japan Cup with double the prizemoney !! Just remember she DID travel and WON in 3 countries and was placed in Dubai. She WON 32 races incl 13 Group 1's. If she were European I'm positive you would be rating her as one of the best you had ever seen
Nice to hear Sir Henry Cecil say that should Black Caviar be entered for the Queen Anne then he would like to see Frankel run in that instead of the Prince Of Wales.
CharlesOlney23 1 hour ago
That;s why Frankel won't race B.C he couldn't afford to loose...They will do the smart thing, cherry pick another 5 or 6 races and then retire him, look for him to race in a group 2 over the 2000 metres..Part of the plan is to get him to win over the 10f before retirement
BalmainBucko 3 hours ago
It has been estimated by UK breeding industry experts that if Frankel remains unbeaten, he will be worth £100m. As CharlesOlney23 rightly pointed out, it is at stud where our champion racehorses generate the most money for their owners.
ThefightingCelt 11 hours ago
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DarkCaviar 58 minutes ago
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@ThefightingCelt
You are just stating the very obvious. Also not your champion racehorses but every countries' champion stallion racehorses. If Black Caviar was a stallion they would have retired her already.
All Too Hard, as a 2 yo, only won his second race on the weekend in a Group 2. Being a half brother to Black Caviar he is already worth as much as her. If he wins a group 1 in the future which is likely he will be worth 10 times more. That's why his owner paid $1m for him.
DarkCaviar 41 minutes ago
The better the prize money the more you can charge at stud our Golden Slipper is worth 3.5 million dollars and is a race for two year old's, thus why part of the reason we have the best sprinters in the world .for a colt to win that race he's automatically worth 10 million..there are some wealthy investors and breeders with an vested interest in racing horses here..then when you do get a good one that can stay, generally they are weighted out of races like the Melbourne Cup due to their loot
BalmainBucko 22 hours ago
If Black Caviar was a colt then nobody would be going on about how little prize money there is in British racing. Surely £1.3million is enough for the Champions Stakes? End of the day prize money is nothing to good horses. Galileo won £1,600,00 but has made about a hundred times that at stud. That's where the money is. Cheap races but the nest racehorses contesting them is good enough for anybody. Black Caviar will only ever make a pittance of what Frankel will make for the Prince.
CharlesOlney23 22 hours ago
@CharlesOlney23 You are missing the point big time. Look at the likes of Fastnet Rock, Redoute's Choice, Encosta De Lago, More Than Ready, Commands, Bel Espirit etc etc. They all make their stud farms millions. Since 2008 1.1 million horses have started in a race in Australia. Say approx 1/2 are male. Thats 1/2 million horses and probably a million owners (with syndication). There are maybe 100 stallions in Australia that make money out of 500,000 male horses who have raced in the......(cont)
leedelaney70 20 hours ago
@leedelaney70 last 4 years alone. So the chances of buying into a horse that can go on and become a successful stallion are somewhere around 5,000/1 at best, when you consider I've only gone back 4 years. Do you honestly believe thats why people buy horses ? It's attractive for owners in Australia as we race for big prizemoney, week in week out. The money spent to buy a horse can be recouped with 1 metro win in the middle of winter !! This is why the racing industry is thriving in Aust...(cont)
leedelaney70 20 hours ago
@leedelaney70 and is not dominated by a few. We have big horse numbers (stud farms with money) as we run for big money (making it attractive to own therefore many owners). The more participants (owners) gives you more depth and bigger field sizes which ensures greater betting turnover (giving value to punters). This high betting turnover ensures raceclubs (who put on the show & receive a % of turnover) have increased revenue & thus putting surplus monies back into prizemoney !! Everybody wins...
leedelaney70 20 hours ago
@leedelaney70 Oh yes I agree with you. It made my day when I saw that Look Busy won a Group 1 at Newmarket 2 years ago when he was owned by a lollipop man and was already gelded. I was just responding to people saying that Frankel won't win as much money as Black Caviar and therefore his wins a worth less.
CharlesOlney23 5 hours ago
@CharlesOlney23
A lot of horses race up to their potential after being gelded and it's mostly recommended by their trainers to owners. What would you prefer a stallion that never won any major races or a gelding that's won a Group 1?
Frankel is a champion 2 yo and champion 3 yo but he needs to prove it as a 4 yo as a champion racehorse in open class company. We all expect him to be restricted to races between 1m - 10f but I would love to see him run and win the Arc.
DarkCaviar 45 minutes ago
I also think with 20/20 it was a big task for Rain affair to enter his first group 1 that way of going...I think they should have set him for the T.J smith...I think he'll give Haylist a bit of a fright in that race, especially if it's raining!
BalmainBucko 1 day ago
@JPD You may notice my last post was from mcwoodsy he's my son sometimes I forget to sign in as balmainbucko, regards!
McWoodsy7 1 day ago
@@JPD639 I think in our Doncaster Frankel would have to carry 58kg, say More joyous would carry 57, Atlantic Jewel 52 and Manawanui 50kg...If he could beat them three under those conditions I would take my hat off to him? and yes I had a couple of dollars on all too hard..looked very impressive, not sure if they will run him in the golden slipper..I think there looking at the Caufield Guinness later on..Would be a big chance if he run's amazing run yesterday looks like we have another one!
McWoodsy7 1 day ago
@JPD639 How good was it to see Hay List triumph today?! (rhetorical) Just awesome! I was at the track and couldn't contain the jubilation. ATH was the next best performance of the day - he's a gem. Just to clarify though, his first race was actually 1100m.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 1 day ago
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar Thanks for clarifying that mate. I was thinking of a different race that was on the same card that day. I was really happy for Hay List too. I've been a big fan of him since he was running trails in Western Australia. Keep a lookout for *Barakey* later this year I think his the real deal and being compared to as the next HL. his videos are on youtube.
JPD639 1 day ago
Frankel has raced three times over 7 furlongs. His first, as a two year old, was at Doncaster against 2 opponents, in which he won by a very easy 13 lengths, and in a very fast time. Later on in his two year old season, he again dropped back to 7 furlongs after winning the 1 mile Royal Lodge Stakes at Ascot. This time he beat a very strong field in Britain's top 2 year old race at Newmarket, The Dewhurst Stakes. His next race, as a 3 yr old, was the 7f Greenham Stakes, which he won by 4 lengths.
ThefightingCelt 1 day ago
I really hope ATH runs the slipper. wuld make it more intriguing.
JPD639 1 day ago
@JPD639 What rain affair does show from his Sydney record of 10/11... you can look good against average sprinters and even break records, ..but you have to handle the pressure, I think Frankel is like Haylist at the 6 and 7, but world class and better over the 8 and I think what has been flattering Frankel's performances over the 6 and 7..is the lack of sprinters in the U.K. ..he wouldn't get away with it in our Doncaster for example, he'd be taken on all the way.
BalmainBucko 1 day ago
@BalmainBucko "I think what has been flattering Frankel's performances over the 6 and 7..is the lack of sprinters in the U.K".... I dont think Frankel raced 6f-7f. Frankel is World class. Best miler I've ever seen. If he raced in the Doncaster Hcp I cant see any aus horses giving him trouble apart from Atlantic Jewel and Manawanui.
JPD639 1 day ago
@BalmainBucko Did you see BC half brother today *All Too Hard*? WOW he looked impressive in his 2 runs now. I had Samaready winning the Golden Slipper but now I have my doubts after seeing All too Hards 2 races. I'd still have Samaready favourite considering both ATH races have been at 7f and not 6f.
JPD639 1 day ago
Dark Caviar said, " Without pace makers like they always do in Europe ... " No DC, they don't ALWAYS do. Certain trainers like Aidan O'Brien use pacemakers in Group 1 races to ensure a fast run race. He does not use them all the time though. Henry Cecil rarely uses pacemakers and only used a pacemaker in the St James Palace Stakes and the QEII; again, so that those mile races would be run at a strong gallop throughout. Frankel made his own running in the 2,000 Guineas and the Sussex Stakes.
ThefightingCelt 1 day ago
To be honest I dont see Rain Affair having success outside Sydney. Even with Sepoy going overseas, Hay List getting older nd Black Caviar going overseas and maybe after that retiring after 2012. Theres gonna be tough opposition for him like the 2yo who will be 3yo when our spring carnival comes like Samaready and All Too Hard. Even Barakey who is undefeated 6 from 6 will make it hard for him. I didnt mind Rain Affair until his trainer opened his mouth.
JPD639 1 day ago
I can only think of 1 race Hay List flopped in, and that was 2010 Patinac Farm Classic when he faced BC for the first time. I was so happy when he won today.
On another note. Mr pride (Rain affair trainer) sounded so arrogant in a interview saying "if he ( RA) runs he'll win". Completely desrespectful of the opposition. When you consider RA has never run against the quality he came up against today. Rain Affair was found out.
JPD639 1 day ago
Well, you would probably say in any other era, Haylist was an out and out champion..that's how good B.C..Is, to come back from 1400 and beat a horse like him after only 1 horse in 128 other's has done it and won..is incredible..the owner of Haylist reckons there's not much between them in speed..but B.C is just mentally more tougher...and more durable
BalmainBucko 1 day ago
@BalmainBucko Hay List IS a out and out champion. Put it this way if he wasnt running in the same era as BC, he would have a extra 4 G1s to his name (4 races he came 2nd to her), and his consistancy over multiple years proves what a champion he is in his own right. Even recent sprint aus champions like Starspangledbanner, Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast didnt perform to the same high level of consistancy in there careers. Unfortunate for HL his run in to the greatest sprinter of all time.
JPD639 1 day ago
Hay List wins against one of the best fields ever assembled in the Group 1 1200m The Newmarket Hcp carrying 58.5kg's !!!!! How good is Black Caviar ?????
leedelaney70 1 day ago
@DarkCaviar Well I guess in the modern era an unbeaten horse in group company over 3 or 4 years is un heard off...she could retire 30/30 who knows...so I suppose there keeping that in the back of their minds along with the thoughts of more ground and the what if factor?...if she got beat bad at 1600, there be those critics with the old we told you say..but still, I hope they give it a go!..I think she'll get 1600 no worries.
BalmainBucko 1 day ago
@DarkCaviar I agree, after her 20/20 and Ascot what else does she have to prove in races under 1400? that's why any thoughts of more ground would likely be in something like the George Ryder..perhaps against More Joyess?.this would be an interesting clash if she fell over the line or loss to her, you would stay with the shorts after that..but what if she destroys More Joyess like the rest of them?..I think Moody will take her along like this and the Great Mare will tell him how far she can run?
BalmainBucko 1 day ago
@BalmainBucko
I have no doubt BC is as effective at 1400m as 1200m. Her momentum will carry her through even if she hits a brick wall at the 100m mark in a strongly run race. I just would love her proving it against top oppositions like you mentioned in More Joyeous at up to a mile. For example today's Chipping Norton at 1600m with Danleigh , Shootout, Pinker pinker and Trusting all proven milers at Group 1 level. I just don't know how important her winning streak is to her owners.
DarkCaviar 1 day ago
@regginald81..It will be interesting to see what both horses end up accomplishing..I think Peter Moody and the owners of B.C.are making sure that she does get 20/20..as from a business prospective this will secure top dollar for her off spring...I think the un known factor bugs them as much as us and from Ascot, I would not be surprise to see her step up to a distance1500 george Ryder if she won with a leg in the air who knows what next? 1800 u/wood stakes? these group 1's are not over strong!
BalmainBucko 1 day ago
@BalmainBucko
20/20 is the most important goal so BC takes the modern day record from Zenyatta to cement her greatness. That's why Peter Moody wanted to win her 20th race in Australia. It will not add any more value to her as a broodmare unless she wins a big 1600m race, not to mention the Cox Plate which would be the ultimate.
Without pace makers like they always do in Europe she could win a lot of WFA races at a mile in Australia.
DarkCaviar 1 day ago
@regginald81 I agree with what your saying...1 great win don't make you a champion, nor does one season..Don't get me wrong I think Frankel would probably beat B.C over 1600,as like she would beat him over 1400, but 9 from 9 and just 1 season is great..but you can't declare an out and out champion just on 1 season...if he wins say the next 8/9 at the same token the one loss depending on what race is was wouldn't detract much from he's greatness!
BalmainBucko 1 day ago
@BalmainBucko I agree that Frankel would be the likely winner over 1600 and BC would be the likely winner over 1200m, i think it would be very tight over 1400, I'd like to see her run in a truly run 1400m before passing judgement over that distance because if the met in this theoretical race then he would have to make it a test of stamina, anything else and he would just be a sitting duck. I agree with what you are saying though, he needs another stellar season to be remembered as one of the
regginald81 1 day ago
@BalmainBucko all time greats. Like BC running a true 1400 race I too want to see Frankel pushed when he steps up to 10f this year. If he wins a 10f race where they make it into a sprint then i will be very disappointed. Like BC this is where he may be vunerable and its the only way we will know whether he really gets 10f. If he does and wins like has been over a mile then his place in history will be well and truly cemented
regginald81 1 day ago
@regginald81
When BC won her 7f race in 1:25 I was totally disappointed. The race caller was shocked when he checked the winning time hoping to boast her greatness more.
Had she won in 1:21-1:22 it would have proved she is as effective in 7f as 5f-6f but 1:25 proved nothing. She could have easily won that same race if it was a 10f race if such a slow tempo is guaranteed!
DarkCaviar 1 day ago
@Thefightingcelt Snow Fairy didn't win a Japan Cup. She won a g1 mares race at Kyoto two years in a row and a Hong Kong cup at Sha tin. And by the way Balmarino wasn't a aussie horse he was bred, owned and trained in NZ.
SoulSurvivor79 2 days ago
@SoulSurvivor79 Yes, but it was a Group 1... the QEII Cup in Japan. In fact, she won that race in consecutive years - and still had to travel half around the world to do it. I know all about Balmerino. He, like So You Think and Phar Lap, Tulloch,Sunline ... and many other horses that have raced many times in Australia, were/are bred in New Zealand.
ThefightingCelt 2 days ago
@ThefightingCelt
The QEII Cup was a much weaker race compared to the Japan Cup. Snow Fairy didn't even enter the Japan Cup she was too scared of the oppositions which included Danedream that trounced her by 5 lengths in the Arc. Funny enough Snow Fairy was then scratched from the HK International Vase. The Arc winner Danedream was beaten out of sight into sixth place in the Japan Cup. Even an old war horse closed to retirement managed third.
DarkCaviar 2 days ago
@DarkCaviar I don't think that off the back of a single scintilating peformance in the Arc anybody believes that Danedream is some kind of superhorse. Also one bad performance from Danedream does not bring into doubt the quality of European horse which is what is sounds like you are getting at. its always difficult to gauge when horses travel overseas, i mean look at Grand Prix Boss at Ascot, he wasn't exactly pulling down any trees.
regginald81 1 day ago
@regginald81
No, I am not doubting the quality of the European horses. Neither do I think Danedream is a super horse. It was a super win in the Arc and that was it. No way Danedream could repeat that while Frankel repeats it again and again. The only thing I wanted to see from frankel is for him to prove his greatness in open company as a 4yo.
My post was a direct reply to ThefightingCelt for his biased comments about Snow Fairy being a mare and winning in Japan.
DarkCaviar 1 day ago
@DarkCaviar in fact he was more 'beaten out of sight' by Frankel (27 lengths) than Danedream who was beaten by 3.5L.
regginald81 1 day ago
@DarkCaviar Snow Fairy suffered a major setback
CharlesOlney23 22 hours ago
A statistic to bear in mind is that Peter Moody has come over to Royal Ascot and Newmarket ( July Cup ) and left empty handed each time. Ok, he hasn't had a horse of Black Caviar's class before ,and although he said, in his opinion, that fillies and mares don't travel abroad as well as male horses, I think the French and UK trainers of Goldikova ( Breeders Cup ) and Snow Fairy ( Japan Cup ) might disagree with him on that point. Maybe the Aussie trainer is just getting his excuses in early.
ThefightingCelt 2 days ago
@ThefightingCelt you are 4/5th's of 5/8th's of a complete goose !!! Just report on the facts idiot, instead of CONTINUALLY making it up as you go along. In June the proof is in the pudding......I'm tipping you will be on holidays then !!
leedelaney70 2 days ago
@leedelaney70 ....and if you are not, put up or SHUT UP !!!. Please please lay Black Caviar and I promise I will take every last cent !!
leedelaney70 2 days ago
@leedelaney70 You've not been taking your daily medication again. What have you been told. No wonder you're talking to yourself. S'truth ! We don't have cents in the Great Britain; we have real money - ££££££££££££s and pence !
ThefightingCelt 2 days ago
@ThefightingCelt I would rather run for a million Aussie dollars than a hundred thousand pounds every day of the week ! Your races are worth a pittance !!!! FACT !!
leedelaney70 1 day ago
Just watched the replay of the 2011 newmarket and B.C Beat star witness by 10 lengths with 58 kg on her back..and star witness was beaten by a head after blowing the start in the king stand last year.WOW!..Look out Ascot...@JPD..your right, rain affair has to win to live up to the hype..something tells me though he just might? loves the wet more I think!
BalmainBucko 2 days ago
@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
leedelaney70 2 days ago
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@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
leedelaney70 2 days ago
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@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
leedelaney70 2 days ago
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@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
leedelaney70 2 days ago
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@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
leedelaney70 2 days ago
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@BalmainBucko It's not wet !! The track at Flemington will be perfect, as usual. Fine and sunny and 23 today and the track was a dead 4 this morning.....a possible shower is forecast. Even if Flemington has a shower the track will be perfect.....it's THE best track in the world !!!
leedelaney70 2 days ago
Sorry minor correction, she raced Hay List 3 times last year, once in 2010 and once this year.
JPD639 3 days ago
Black Caviar will lose first. Sir Henry Cecil said the other day he wouldn't swap Frankel for any horse on Earth - even BC. Frankel's first race will be at a mile in The Lockinge Stakes - the traditional seasonal starting point for the older milers. He will probably face the likes of Excelebration, Strong Suit et al and will again beat them senseless. After that he will run over 10f at Royal Ascot, in the Prince Of Wales Stakes and then probably onto The Eclipse Stakes at Sandown. All group 1s
ThefightingCelt 3 days ago
@ThefightingCelt Funny that Frankel races Excelebration again for the 4th time and his only just 4. Black caviar got so much crap from euros about racing Hay List 4 times last season now 5 after 2012 Lightning stakes.
Why bring up who Sir Henry Cecil would choose if he had to pick between Frankel an BC? of course his gonna choose Frankel like Moody would choose BC.
No disrespect towards Frankel I think his a brilliant horse like BC.
JPD639 3 days ago
@ThefightingCelt That's your evidence - who Sir Henry would choose? That's hardly "checkmate" Mr Celt. I'm sure Mr Moody elects to hang onto Black Cav given the ultimatum. In which of Frankel races this prep do you foresee him being the most vulnerable? Though her plans are still a little cloudy, I reckon Black Cav comfortably notches up her 20th win in Adelaide (The Goodwood). She'll be up against the challenges that come with travel in the Diamond Jubilee, so there will be inherent risk there.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 2 days ago
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar if she doesn't travel well they won't run. If she runs she wins as she likes
leedelaney70 2 days ago
@ThefightingCelt Fancy Frankel's trainer saying that....wow that sure changes things
leedelaney70 2 days ago
Well there's the question we should really be debating - which horse will likely LOSE first? Nevermind a Frankel v Black Cav race; we are all cluey enough to realise that ain't gonna happen. But who loses first? UK fans, talk us through Frankel's upcoming prep.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 3 days ago
I'm getting that impression about rain affair myself, could be value to leave Haylist out of the trifecta, and flexi box the other 6 chances..poor hay list has to contend with a field of 23...I can't see him winning it.
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
yeah your probably right JPD..I just think Peter Moody wants to take her to her limit at some point..nothing would surprise me though if they went that way...chances are though, they'll probably want to retire her undefeated up to 1600 perhaps?
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
The one that worry's me is rain affair..this is a different race of coarse, but he loves the wet..ran 1.10 for 1200 on a slow track..WTF..That time is ok for a good track?
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko Rain Affair is the real deal and he looks a good chance to topple Hay List. Lone Rock (if dry) & Bel Sprinter are the best light weight hopes and Eagle Falls (if dry) is the best roughie imo. You could easily back them all and still get a result......
leedelaney70 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko Rain Affair can handle wet or dry, Rain affair probably needs to win or at least place in the Newmarket considering the reasonable weight his got for a horse with his record to back up the hype surrounding him.
JPD639 2 days ago
The Goodwood or the BTC Cup at Doomben, both on May 12 are the 2 main candidates for her next start. nothing is confirmed yet. I doubt BC will go for the Cox Plate. her sire Bel Esprit was smashed at that race by Northerly. Too risky trying her at 10f Cox Plate later this year she'll be at the critical age of 6
JPD639 3 days ago
I agree JPD..That's a tall order for Haylist and I agree..you hope he wins but he only beat Foxwedge by 2 lengths and has to give him 8 kg..I know the trainer didn't want to run him but the owner over ruled!
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
Any Idea where B.C will run in her next start? and in regards to Ascot the Jubilee is her main mission..I still think there's a slim chance of her running 1600 over there, not to take on Frankel but perhaps give her a hit out there before returning here for a possible tilt at the cox plate..it might even be a group 2 race should it fit into the plans..If Peter Moody has demonstrated one thing...he does change he's mind on the trot?
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
Get on Foxwedge in the New market guys..50.kg and 7 to 1 what a price....and what a great race it will be.... real interesting to see rain affair compete;s...and see how haylist goes with the top weight...great horse, but I think he's giving some good horse's too much weight!
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko The 2012 Newmarket hcp is wide open now considering the massive weight they gave Hay List. The handicapper based Hay List weight on Black caviar if she ran. Its a absolute joke that hay List has to carry 58 and a half kilos. His barely ran a race in the lst 12 months. Foxwedge at 50kg is really good odds his been crying out for more distance.
JPD639 3 days ago
How many of these horse were voted champion two and three year old?..usually the sprinters stitch up the 2 year old's leaving the champion middle distances horse's having a crack at it when there three..my whole point with Occky..he's a leg up on all of them I think? even the great tulloch's 2 year old record was not enough to win him that crown...I think Occky winning a cox plate with the triple crown and Mercedes classic puts him above all of them except kingston town of coarse.
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
Then you have the modern day records... kingston town who won 14 group 1's over 5 or 6 years...Black Caviar 9 group 1's over 2 or 3 years...Occky 5 group 1's in one year on top of being voted two and three year old of the year..all along I have never said he was better than Tulloch or Kingston town..what I have said pick three of the best 2 and 3 year old's ever... and put them in a basket, Occky deserves to be there with them based on he's 2 and 3 year old seasons.
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko I'm not as certain as you that Octagonal would be a lock. Tulloch would be on the back of his outstanding 3yo season and Vain would be on the back of his outstanding 2 and 3yo seasons. That leaves 1 more spot, Kingston Town, Dulcify, Manikato, Sepoy, Todman, Bounding Away, Octagonal etc
leedelaney70 3 days ago
Thats the comparison of there 3yo season. doesnt compare I'm sorry. Tulloch 3yo season is in a different league.
jtube639 3 days ago
This is facts. Tulloch won the Derby slam, was 1 race from winning the triple crown had he raced the Canterbury. Won the AJC Derby, Rosehill Guineas, Victoria Derby, QTC Derby stakes (now Queensland Derby), Caulfield Guineas, Caulfield Cup, All Aged Stakes, Queen Elizabeth Stakes, Chipping Norton Stakes and Rawson Stakes ( now known as the Ranvet stakes), all G1 races. Throw in VRC st Leger stakes and VRC C.B. Fisher Plate which used to be G1 races. Thats 12 G1 for Tulloch. 5 G1 for Octagonal.
jtube639 3 days ago
To win that race with all those circumstances against him is equal to Seretariat's run in the belmont..Phar lap won the richest race in the world at that time.
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
@leedelaney70 yes I agree too that Tulloch deserves all the accolades..he was our best horse along with phar lap..check out phar laps win in America in 1939..near last, 4 wide in running taken to the lead at the 1000 meters, headed in the straight and fought back to win...I too am in orr of Secretariat, he's win in the belmont was freakish..but considering Phar lap hoped on a boat for two months..was driven by a float for 500 miles, had problems with he's feet and couldn't gallop (con)
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko yes Phar Lap was a superior 'older horse' and easily in the top 10 horses of all time. He won 32 of his last 35 races (with two 2nds over unsuitably short 1600m) incl Melb Cup, 2 Cox Plates, Agua Caliente Hcp (worlds richest race) where he won with a cracked hoof in track record time with top weight after travelling there by ship for 10 weeks. His most remarkable feat was winning on all 4 days of the Flemington Spring Carnival. 4 starts for 4 wins in the space of a week
leedelaney70 3 days ago
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jtube639 3 days ago
And remember Saintly lost 5 from 5 against Occy as a three year old and went on and won a melbourne cup easily..my point all along is not to knock Tulloch but just put forward my opinion about he's ability as a two and three year old.
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
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@BalmainBucko Saintly lost 3 from 3 to Occy not 5. Saintly was better racing in Victoria rather then NSW. Now your reading formlines talking about what Saintly did in the MC at 4yo?. Tulloch missed his entire 4yo season through a stomach virus. Had he not missed that year he probably would be regarded on par with Phar Lap, couse he would have dominated as a 4yoif you read formlines when he cameback at 5yo.You also keep bringing up the 2yo Golden Slipper, for the last time that is not a 3yo race.
jtube639 3 days ago
6,1 half the other we'll never know, as I said the A.J.C Derby Occy won was quicker than Tulloch's..running home 33.3 est..over 2500 hundred in the V.R.C with 57kg on your back and dropping to 47 kg in the melbourne cup? wouldn't of hurt him and imagine a horse winning the Golden slipper, cox plate, melbourne cup, and triple crown at the age of three what would we be calling him.yes I know he didn't do it but he almost did....he's was up there with the best three year olds no doubt in my mind
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko yes I agree the big O is up there with the best 3yo's but Tulloch IS UNQUESTIONABLY THE BEST 3yo this country has ever seen. He's up there with the best 3yo's the world has ever seen. He's up there with the Secretariat's and Sea Bird II's of this world. His 3yo year produced 14 wins from 16 starts (with 2 placings) incl 12 Group 1 wins (7 against open class horses)
leedelaney70 3 days ago
My point is this..If tulloch was in that derby against Occy Saintly and co..he may have beat them, but it would be very close...to say Octaganal was inferior as a three year old is suggesting Tulloch would win that derby with his head on he's chest...Rubbish, the experts are calling that derby the race of the century!
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
Perhaps once Black Caviar and Frankel are finished creaming eachother.... Frankel and Black Caviar have foal that is ultamite racehorse?
ProffesionalZombie12 3 days ago
Well lets go down that path.. Octagonal should have beaten nothinliecadane in the V.R.C..He gave him 7 lenghts at the 2 furlongs and ran him down to a length..nothinliecadane ran home the last 600 in 34 flat from the front...which meant he walked and sprinted and nothing over 2500 meters can come from 7 lengths back and win from that sectional..Occy must have run 33.3 himself to get with in a length..the jockey was sacked, so if occy won does he go on and win the melbourne cup?..
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
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JPD639 3 days ago
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@BalmainBucko It's not the same. Occy lost by a lenght, while Tulloch won by 8l to a horse that came second in the MC by a neck. Nothin' Leica Dane came 2nd in the MC in 1995 to Doreimus, beat Nothin' Leica Dane by 5l,.
JPD639 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko very pertinent point you make here..... Octagonal should/could have beaten Nothin Leica Dane in the Derby but he DIDN'T. NLD ran 2nd in the Cup 3 days later beaten 4l. Tulloch thrashed Prince Darius by 8l in the Derby. Prince Darius ran 2nd in the Cup 3 days later beaten a head !
leedelaney70 3 days ago
@leedelaney70 Tulloch would have won the Melb Cup easily bearing in mind he had already beaten most of the same horses in the Caulfield Cup by 2l in world record time 2 1/2 weeks prior (I know we'll never know) whereas Octagonal would not only have had to reverse his defeat at the hands of Nothin Leica Dane but he would have also had to beat Doriemus who was 4l in front of NLD. Doubt it
leedelaney70 3 days ago
Also octagonal did hold the track record over 10 furlongs at Canterbury and he's win in the A.J.C derby was the fastest ever...the place getters, nothin liecadane ran 2nd as a three year old in the melbourne cup...Filante held the 1600 metre track record at Randwick and Saintly A COX PLATE melbourne cup double winner who from Bart's mouth was probably the best horse he had..where champions in their own right..his win in the Derby I think from memory was achieved after running 3 weeks in a row
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
I was referring to 3 year old and prior, not sure if Mc woodsy meant the same, ..but as a two year old tulloch got beaten by Toddman over 6 furlongs by 6 lengths as opposed to Octagonal who should have won the golden slipper going down a nose..occy won the sire's and was crowned 2 year old of the season Tulloch wasn't crowned 2 year old of the season..as a three year old Occy won the triple crown .tulloch didn't..so to say occy was inferior to tulloch as a 3 year old an prior is way of the mark
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko no mate you are way off the mark actually. For starters for decades but in particular 1957, Tulloch's 3yo year, the AJC Derby was run in the spring, along with the Rosehill Guineas. Tulloch won BOTH (incl Derby by 6l breaking Phar Lap's track record). The Canterbury Guineas was held in the autumn. Tulloch didn't run in the Canterbury Guineas ! Now are ALL held in the autumn. I think his victory in the Caulfield Guineas that spring more than makes up for.....(cont)
leedelaney70 3 days ago
@leedelaney70 (cont).....him not running in the Canterbury Guineas. The Caulfield Guineas is a much much stronger race. In that same spring of his 3yo year he also won Caulfield Cup (running a world record time), VRC Victoria Derby by 8l beating Prince Darius (who then came out 3 days later to run 2nd in the Melb Cup beaten a head). He then won the CB Fisher Plate (The Emirates Stks) then 7 days later won the QTC Queensland Derby by 7l. Thats not to mention the autumn !!!!!
leedelaney70 3 days ago
@leedelaney70 Sorry mate didnt see your post 2mins ahead of mine.
JPD639 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko Tulloch didnt win the triple crown only becouse he didnt contest Canterbury Guineas, he won the other 2 leg (Rosehill Guineas and AJC derby). Tulloch won the Derby slam instead. Also Toddman was the champion sprinter of the time and won 10 of his 12 starts with a 2nd placing, and the race he was unplaced was when he broke down in the Hill stakes. Tulloch gave Toddman his only true defeat at 7f the race before they raced at 6f. No shame in losing to a specialist sprinter.
JPD639 3 days ago
@JPD639 It should also be noted Todman is in the Hall of Fame. He was a champion in his own right but Tulloch still was able to beat him at 1400m (7f)
leedelaney70 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko Also you keep talking about Octagonal *should of won Golden Slipper*. fact is he didnt and was defated by a Flying Spur who was nothing like a Toddman. If you want to debate of what should haves, then Tulloch should have won the Melbourne Cup in his 3yo season had the handicapper not given him a ridiculous weight. The horse that came 2nd in the MC Prince Darius lost by a neck. PD lost by 8l to Tulloch in the lead up race VRC derby just a few day earlier.
JPD639 3 days ago
Putting it another way...if you multiply todays prize money and times it by the races they won up to a three year old..Octaganol would have earned the most out of the three of them probably because of he's second in the golden slipper and second in the victoria derby ..he should have won the slipper...and for a three year old..2nd in the slipper..won a cox plate and won a A.J.C Derby in the fastest time and the triple crown..along with the Mercedes..nothing delusional about that achievement..
BalmainBucko 3 days ago
@BalmainBucko Mate what kinda stats are u throwing? If your trying to compare Octagonal to Tulloch 3yo stats, stop bringing up the Golden Slipper that's a 2yo race.
I do admit Octagonal had a very good 3yo season but still inferior to Tulloch. my original response was for Mcwoodsy7 who stated *best 3yo Australia ever produced was Octagonal*
JPD639 3 days ago
cant wait till ascot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gk111127 3 days ago in playlist horses
great video.
gk111127 3 days ago in playlist horses
I'm only suggesting his three year old record was comparable to tulloch and the king not he's overall performance..he didn't really come back quite as good as a four year old..when I refer to the same basket once again I'm not saying he's better I'm referring to basket as in our best ever three year olds...I said the crop he beat where almost chanpion's in there own right...so please don't read between the lines...had he won a Golden slipper...and he was a un lucky second I may think different.
BalmainBucko 4 days ago
@BalmainBucko There has not been a horse yet who has matched or surpassed Tulloch's deeds as a 3yo. Octagonal was a champion 3yo as you said but Tulloch was in a different league. It could be reasonably argued Vain was up there. He won the Freeway Stks (Manikato), Ascot Vale Stks, Caulfield Guineas then Craven A Stks (Salinger) by 12l, Linlithgow Stks (Patinack Classic) by 6l and then George Adams Hcp (The Emirates) carrying 10 pounds OVER WFA as a 3yo. Last 3 wins were in 7 days
leedelaney70 3 days ago
Tulloch is considered the 3rd best racehorse to ever grace Australasia, behind the Great Phar Lap and Carbine. Anyone who says Octangonal was in the same bracket as Tulloch is delusional.
JPD639 4 days ago
Post WW II, Timeform figures indicate that Tulloch (138 ) is the highest rated Australian thoroughbred, followed by Kingston Town ( 137 ) Manikato ( 136 ) and Black Caviar ( 135 ). Pat Glennon, the hall of fame Australian jockey rode Melbourne Cup winners, Comic Court and McDougall. He said after he retired that neither of those 2 horses, or any other horse he had ridden or seen in Australia could have beaten the brilliant 1965 European champion, Sea-Bird; the horse he considered the best ever.
ThefightingCelt 4 days ago
I think it;s fair to say Octagonal as a three year old was in the same basket as Tulloch and kingston town...although no doubting the horses Octagonal beat are better then the crop Tulloch and Kingstown beat...but Occy didn't go on to the heights of the other two as a four year old..he defiantly was burnt out as a three year old!
BalmainBucko 4 days ago
@BalmainBucko with respect but surely you are kidding mate. Tulloch won 14 of 16 starts (with one 2nd & one 3rd) as a 3yo and beat the older horses 7 times ! He continually thrashed Prince Darius who would have been a champion in any other era (he beat Tulloch twice and finished a neck 2nd in Melb Cup as a 3yo). Some of the older horses he beat incl MacDougal (Metrop & Melb Cup winner), Macs Amber (Chipping Norton & Toorak), Monte Carlo (AJC & VRC Derby, Mackinninon Stks)...(cont)
leedelaney70 4 days ago
@leedelaney70 (cont)....Sailors Guide (AJC Derby, Mackinnon Stks, DC International in USA), Caranna (AJC Derby, Caulfield & Rosehil Guineas) etc He also broke Phar Lap's track record in winning AJC Derby and broke world record for mile 1/2 on turf in winning Caulfield Cup as an early 3yo. Tulloch did not race for almost 2 years due to a mystery illness. He comeback & won 15 more races incl Cox Plate, Mackinnon Stks, 2 Queen Elizabeth Stks etc He was only ONCE unplaced.....(cont)
leedelaney70 4 days ago
@leedelaney70 (cont) in 53 starts incl 36 wins when asked to carry 10 stone 1 pound (64kg's) in Melb Cup, a race he would have bolted in as a 3yo. As a measure of how good he was TJ Smith always maintained Tulloch was better than Kingston Town & he would know - he trained them both. With respect to Octagonal but he should not be mentioned in the same breath as Tulloch or Kingston Town
leedelaney70 4 days ago
Best three year old horse Australia ever produced was Octagonal..thing about him the crop of three years old around him Saintly etc, where very good horses...and to think he should have won the golden slipper as a two year old and should have won the victoria derby..what a horse...the day he won the chipping norton he ran the last 600 in 32 something after taking of at the 800...geez that horse had a heart!
McWoodsy7 4 days ago
@McWoodsy7 Like many others, I was there at Flemington when he won the Australia Cup in 1997. A great finish and it was an emotional crowd who cheered the Big O back to scale. That was one of Australian racing's (many) really captivating moments.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 4 days ago
@McWoodsy7 Occy was very good but Tulloch was Australia's best ever 3yo closely followed by Vain. Tulloch was the world's best 3yo in his 3yo year. He won Warwick Stks, Rosehill Guineas, AJC Derby (track record), Caulfield Guineas, Caulfield Cup (as 6/4 fav and broke world record for mile 1/2 on turf), VRC Derby, CB Fisher Plate, QTC Derby. In Autumn he won VRC St Leger, Rawson Stakes, Chipping Norton Stakes, AJC St Leger, All Aged Stakes & AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes.......(cont)
leedelaney70 4 days ago
@leedelaney70 (cont)......Tulloch beat Prince Darius in the VRC Derby by 8 lengths and was fav for the Melb Cup 3 days later but was scratched as his owner didn't want to run his 3yo over 2 miles. His trainer Tommy Smith wanted to run (some say he had a massive Cups Double going) but the owner had the final say and he was scratched. Prince Darius ran in the Cup and ran 2nd beaten a neck !! Fair to say he would have romped home in the Melbourne Cup. Now that's some 3yo !!
leedelaney70 4 days ago
type in "black caviar vs frankel virtual race" to Google - click on the first bit of news and follow the links.
CharlesOlney23 5 days ago
@CharlesOlney23 Brilliant analysis by Timeform.
ThefightingCelt 5 days ago
@CharlesOlney23 appears the only way to get Black Caviar beaten is hold a 'virtual race' and who does this ??? British based Timeform of course. Interesting BC can run 3 sub 11sec sectionals mid race in real life with more weight (2011 1200m Grp1 Newmarket Hcp with 58kg's) as well as a sub 10sec sectional between the 3f and the 2f at her last race track appearance and 19th consecutive win yet she cannot match Frankel's 11.5, 11.5, 10.9 & 11.1 sectionals in a virtual race (cont)..
leedelaney70 4 days ago
@leedelaney70 (cont)....They have So You Think, a multiple Grp 1 winner @ 10f & Grp1 placed in a Melb Cup @ 16f, along with Atlantic Jewel, who's had 5 career starts for easy Grp1 wins at 8f (by 3 lengths) & 10f (by 10 lengths) in the field yet they don't have Hay List, who is a multiple Grp 1 winner at both 6f and 7f and has ran 2nd to Black Caviar in 5 Grp 1's. I love the concept but it was an ordinary production at best.......(cont)
leedelaney70 4 days ago
@leedelaney70 (cont)....Not only did they get the make up of the field wrong, and quite possibly the result (according to actual sectionals), but they couldn't even give us a picture. Do yourself a favour and check out what Victoria Racing Club did with a virtual Greatest Ever Melbourne Cup. Search "greatest melbourne cup cup never run" on youtube. Thats how you do it !!
leedelaney70 4 days ago
@leedelaney70 sorry that search should read "greatest melbourne cup never run"
leedelaney70 4 days ago
@leedelaney70 I never said it was absolutely what will happen but it gave people a view on how officials would view it and seeing how this clip is called "Black Caviar vs Frankel" it seemed right to give others to know how to watch it. It was 7f which means she would naturally run slower than her 5f races. Timeform did say that Black Caviar follows Frankel all the way and only loses the race because she was out battled in the final furlong. It was down to Frankel's stamina and extra kick.
CharlesOlney23 4 days ago
@CharlesOlney23 I never said you said anything with relation to Timeform's virtual race. They were never going to have Black Caviar beating the horse who heads THEIR ratings were they ? Would make them look pretty stupid don't you think ? What they probably don't realise is they look stupid anyway. I used sectionals from a 6f race (Newmarket Hcp), a race in which she carried more weight (58kg's) and ......(cont)
leedelaney70 3 days ago
@CharlesOlney23 (cont)....a race where she was being eased down. She could have EASILY ran FASTER !! Even her finishing sectionals in her only 1400m start of 10.64 & 11.07 where again she was being eased down & could have EASILY been FASTER are faster than the virtual race. So in real life she runs faster and with more weight than they had her going in a virtual race (remembering she could have easily gone faster still as she is only being cuddled). Defies logic !
leedelaney70 3 days ago
@leedelaney70 I agree with you to an extent on this. The virtual race that Timeform staged was run at a faster pace than her 7f race and hence her finishing sectionals would naturally be slower. It was Frankel's pressure at the front that caused her to slow down. It's a pipe dream and so shouldn't really be taken seriously. Nice to watch though. I reckon that both will remain unbeaten in 2012 which is about 4/1 with WilliamHill.
CharlesOlney23 3 days ago
Loudest noise the world will ever hear on a racecourse is simply the final two furlongs of the Grand National. The Cheltenham Gold Cup and The Derby get's loud but doesn't reach the same crescendo. Even beats the 2009 Eclipse.
CharlesOlney23 5 days ago
Who would win? Who knows? They are both great racehorses.
SupBA 5 days ago
@ThefightingCelt No lols from me then. :) Yeah, it's a shame that Australia and England are so far apart; I feel it's the push/pull combination of good prizemoney in Aust during Oct & Nov, coupled with the arduous journey of getting over to the UK. Truth be told though, our stayers wouldn't hold a candle to your Group 3 stocks, let alone your elite. We've witnessed the notable decline over the last 15 years and I'm sure it's not simply cyclical.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 5 days ago
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar I commend your honesty and I will just as happily concede that our sprinters couldn't hold a candle to yours. We might have done 20 years ago, when the brilliant Dayjur was conquering all around him in Europe - but now the emphasis is very much geared towards breeding elite middle distance horses in order to win the top Group 1s. The opposite seems to be the case in Australia, where breeding the very best sprinters would appear to be de rigeur.
ThefightingCelt 5 days ago
so too did northenly and them two was not as good as might and power or not quite!
BalmainBucko 5 days ago
Actually she may not have raced might and power, but Lonhro did beat her, she was a champ, don't get me wrong, I'm just referring to those who may think she was the best ever...we have had many many great 10furlong horses, but as I said in regards to mares, she's right up there
BalmainBucko 5 days ago
@BalmainBucko NOBOBY here said Sunline was the best ever however I certainly take exception to anyboby who saw her to say they have seen 50 better. Her race record (2 Doncaster's, 2 Cox Plates, 2 All Ages Stks, 2 Coolmore Classics, 2 Waikato Sprints, Hong Kong Mile, beating Fairy King Prawn, Manikato Stks etc) stacks up favourably against 90% of champions. Northerly was a champion in his own right (2 Cox Plates, Caulfield Cup with top weight, 2 Australian Cups, Caulfield Stks etc)
leedelaney70 4 days ago
@BalmainBocko When did Might & Power beat Sunline? I'm not sure I remember that. That day she spread-eagled the Cox Plate field in 2000 was just magic. Brian Martin: "...but this is awesome!"
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 5 days ago
Sunline got beat by Might and power, Northenly and Lonhro if that helps lining her up in regards to being the best...I would say she was a champion mare and the fact that she won in four different country's makes her one of the best..
BalmainBucko 5 days ago
@ThefightingCelt Not clear if that is a dig at me there. I don't really have an opinion on where Sunline fits into the global picture - I'll leave that to you and leedelaney . I'd be the first to put up my hand and say I'm not 'across' racing in Europe, Dubai, Japan, USA etc and so therefore not qualified to make a valid comparison. I do know however that facts are facts, and in order to facilitate an informed discussion we need to get them right where we can.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 5 days ago
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@DeathTaxBlackCaviar Yes, it was directed at young delaney. His lols irked me. As I said, it was his Sunline win statitics I was referring to, not her overall race record. I thought that was plain enough. I posted on another thread that Dermot Weld, after winning the MC with Vintage Crop, said that the Aussie trainers should now bring their best middle distance horses over to Europe to contest the King George and The Arc. Since then, none have, apart from ex OZ trained, SYT.
ThefightingCelt 5 days ago
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The uneducated usually sneer and jeer when confronted by a greater intellect, especially when losing the debate. I was responding to leedelaney ( the young impressionable oz kid ) about Sunline's Group 1 statistic. Anyhow, as I stated previously; the vast majority of Group 1s in Oz aren't worth a bean. Glorified handicaps most of them. No, I certainly do not rate her that highly. There are only a handful of NZ/OZ middle distance horses who would maybe make my top 100. Phar Lap, K Town, Carbine
ThefightingCelt 5 days ago
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ThefightingCelt 5 days ago
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ThefightingCelt 5 days ago
@ThefightingCelt Sorry mate, not entering the debate on where she sits in the global sphere, but your Sunline information is incorrect. She started 48 times and had 32 wins (27 of them were stakes races and of those 13 were group 1s). She also ran second 9 times and was third 3 times.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 5 days ago
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HadleyReisMC 6 days ago
@ThefightingCelt Well, case in point, Cirrus des Aigles. How closely did the UK follow his progress? (And what went wrong?) My mate who was over there said he was surprised by how restrained the crowd roar was in the closing stages of each race. I thought it was an interesting observation, given their passion for the punt. I know I certainly cheer that little bit louder if I've backed something with earnest.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 6 days ago
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar Well, although he did win our Champion Stakes at Ascot ( previously run at Newmarket ) he is French trained, so the interest, from a British perspective wouldn't have been that high. He ran well to finish 5th. I think it was an American trained horse who won the race. The travelling, coupled with racing too soon after his Champion Stakes exertion probably took it's toll. Another French trained horse, Byword, finished down the field. For loudest cheers - Cheltenham in March !
ThefightingCelt 6 days ago
@ThefightingCelt How about 120,000 people roaring at the track on Melbourne Cup day or Derby Day. They get the same and sometimes more to the Japan Cup as well...I can assure you thats a load cheer. As a matter of interest what sort of attendance do they get to Cheltenham ?
leedelaney70 6 days ago
@leedelaney70 Let me tell you that I came back from Melbourne raving about how good I thought the atmosphere was at Flemington. I have relatives who actually played in one of the pipe bands before the racing began. There was a lot of fancy dress on show and although it was obvious that the vast majority didn't know one end of a horse from another, they were all having a great time. Cheltenham Festival is run over 4 days and can attract crowds of over 100,000 per day. Total bedlam when Irish win.
ThefightingCelt 5 days ago
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The International Race Day does bring interest - obviously to the racing aficiandos. We do follow their progress, but as the quality of horse we do send there is usually not top tier, the enthusiasm level is not so high as it would be for the big races in USA or Australia. Yes, the Hong Kong turnover is absolutely phenomenal - given their attendences, and of course, their predilection for gambling on anything that moves.
ThefightingCelt 6 days ago
@ThefightingCelt Ah, I don't mean Hong Kong racing in general, but the international race day itself (in December). When the Brits send over their horses, does the racing public follow their progress? Ha, "two spiders"! Darn tootin' - the turnover figures from a non-descript midweek meeting at Happy Valley are huuuuge!
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 6 days ago
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ThefightingCelt 6 days ago
@ThefightingCelt Hey, I'd be interested to gauge, how is the international race day in Hong Kong viewed by the Brits (in terms of standard)? The Aussies usually send 3-4 horses over each year, so it gets a bit of coverage here. A mate of mine went last year and said it was a good experience.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 6 days ago
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar We know all about Hong Kong but our view of the overall standard of racing there is not high and we tend not to send our good horses there. The Chinese would bet on two spiders crawling up a wall. We have a healthier regard for American, Japanese and Australian racing but obviously less so than British, French and Irish - which from a European angle, I lump all altogether, because we often compete against one other in each of our respective countries.
ThefightingCelt 6 days ago
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In fact, Sunline did venture as far as Honk Kong and Dubai. She won a mickey mouse race in Honk Kong ( in terms of opposition ) and then went to Dubai and racing over 9 and bit furlongs ( remember, she had won at a mile also ) she was beaten ( finished 3rd ) by Jim & Tonic, the well travelled French Miler, who was considered good but not top class. Even our two best milers of 2008 ( Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator ) beat the best horse in the world, Curlin (USA ) in the Breeders Cup Classic
ThefightingCelt 6 days ago
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ThefightingCelt 6 days ago
@ThefightingCelt I respect your opinion, and I'm not going to buy into the "was Sunline the best in the world" debate, but I will say that 2400m (12f) was NEVER her 'go'. She was a great miler but was also capable of running out a strong 10f...but not beyond. I have agreed with (and learnt from) many things you have said in this forum, but not this. Sunline was certainly no 12f horse.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 6 days ago
@thefightingcelt you are making it up as you go along. Sunline was a 7f - 10f horse !!! She never started in a race longer than 10f & she won 32 times !! The Arc is 12f do you seriously want us to believe that race was ever on the radar ? 8f was her pet distance. She won 2 Doncasters & Hong Kong Mile @ 8f & placed in Dubai Duty Free @ 1777m
leedelaney70 6 days ago
@leedelaney70 I agree wholeheartedly. Mr Celt seems to have his finger right on the pulse 99% of the time, but then has these little slip-ups that make you question how 'across' Australian racing he really is. What he has just put forward is the equivalent of someone saying Frankel was invited over to Australia for the Newmarket Handicap (6f) but Prince Khalid Abdullah crapped himself and said no way cobber. Sunline was clearly never a 2400m horse, just as Frankel is clearly not a sprinter.
DeathTaxBlackCaviar 6 days ago
@DeathTaxBlackCaviar The Aussies and New Zealanders were proclaiming Sunline as the greatest horse on the planet. We sadi, well, come over to France in October and prove it. The fact that she excelled at 10f in Aus did not preclude her from running at 12f. Many great 10f performers have won Group1s at 12furlongs. Great or outstanding in Australia usually translates as good in Europe.
ThefightingCelt 6 days ago
@ThefightingCelt She won 3 Group 1's at 1200m (6f) !!!!! Do you STILL think she could run a strong 2400m (12f ) ?? If she could get 2400m she would have went to the Japan Cup with double the prizemoney !! Just remember she DID travel and WON in 3 countries and was placed in Dubai. She WON 32 races incl 13 Group 1's. If she were European I'm positive you would be rating her as one of the best you had ever seen
leedelaney70 6 days ago