Religion was not the problem in Northern Ireland

[TheAzov]

Britain demanded to keep Ulster because of the heavy British investment, especially in the ship-building industry. The nationalists demanded it be part of Ireland to give the Free State economy an industrial base.

[DaveAllenDaveAllen]

@TheAzov I'm sure Britian at the time was happy to retain the Belfast shipyards - though I doubt Ulster would have remained part of the United Kingdom were it not for a sizable Protestant majority in Northern Ireland who did not identify as Irish and lobbied to remain in the UK.

[TheAzov]

@DaveAllenDaveAllen The Protestant plantation was about establishing a loyal British community to hold down Irish rebellion in Ulster: a human investment, to complement and build the economic one. They've never had any choice but to cling to Britain for their survival - much to their own dismay at times.

[DaveAllenDaveAllen]

@TheAzov I wouldn't deny that it probably has roots in a colonialist exercise, though by the time of partition we are talking about a population who have had no other home for generations. I think Irish history would be a much happier subject had the Irish been left to self-determine from the time of the Normans onwards - but that doesn't alter the fact that the majority of the inhabitants of Ulster identify as British rather than Irish and have done so for well over a century.

[AtheistsUNItd]

Very nice. A message which needs to be heard.

[adambelfast1]

@NITRANCE2011 yeah but not because of their religion because of their national identity, nationailist (who are irish) on one side and the unionist (who are british) on the other side, like he said religion played its part in the troubles but it wasnt the cause of the troubles in NI

[squirell1952]

MAYBE AFTER 21-12-2012, PEOPLE FROM ALL RELIGIONS WILL GATHER IN ONE SINGLE BUILDING TO WORSHIP GOD THE FATHER. AFTER ALL, THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD THE FATHER. IN HEAVEN, WE CAN ALL RUB SHOULDERS TOGETHER. BUT WHY WAIT UNTIL YOU PHYSICALLY DIE TO RUB SHOULDERS WITH EVERYBODY. LET'S START IT HERE ON EARTH FIRST!! THINK ABOUT IT. WE CAN ALL WORSHIP TOGETHER. SATANISN CAUSES DIVISION. GOD DOESN'T!!!

[squirell1952]

Contrary to popular opinion, religion did NOT cause wars. PEOPLE caused wars.

Religion does not divide people. PEOPLE divide people. Religion is not hypocritical. PEOPLE are hypocrites - whether they go to church or not. Think about it. And people who cause trouble tend to be uneducated, semi-illiterate, tattooed etc. EDUCATION is supposed to liberate people. Due to the lack of it, the lower classes will ALWAYS cause trouble in Ulster and elsewhere.

[ukuk2012ukukuk2012uk]

religion was A problem but not the full problem there were many problems or troubles thats why its called the troubles not the trouble or problem but i dont see them problems anymore well most of them...

[MrBab91]

To discount a religon as a point of contension is unbalanced.

There is no one reason and you will not find one reason for the "troubles" As you said.

There is the fact of socialy and economicaly the new ruleing class was the protestant population and the fall out of that brings along with it. Adding to the sectarian elelment and relgious unrest Historical grievances , loss of sovereignty. The english class system the reviveal of irish national identy in the 19th century.

[MrBab91]

@MrBab91 wont go much further , we could all do 2000 word essays on the matter. Just nice to see a proper discussion of youtube about it rather than have smicks USEING CAPS KAT OR ALL HUNS OUT

[UlsterScotKeith]

Religion WASN'T the cause of the troubles. It played a part in the picking out of people to kill but it didn't start the troubles. A reality check people.

[joebot1]

ok, firstly, I didn't say religion was the problem, I said quite clearly that religion has made the problem much worse!!.

your essentially strawmanning my point!. If you want to argu that this isn't a territorial dispute, fine, I disagree, but that we can debate, but please don't put words into my mouth!.

[ballyboneman]

@joebot1 I stated quite clearly that you thought that religion exascerbated the divisions here. I'm not putting words in your mouth. It is evident from the very fact that you make videos decrying religion and its influence that you do think religion is the problem. You are not making videos about nationalism, patriotism, capitalism, socialism, imperialism, expansionism or any of the other isms or worldviews that bring untold misery to millions.

[ballyboneman]

@joebot1 " If you want to argu that this isn't a territorial dispute, fine, I disagree" based on what exactly?

[ballyboneman]

@PostITnoteGUY Desperate, frightened, embittered, beligerent, oppressed people will justify all sorts of barbarity by appealing to ANY of a miriad of reasons including nationalism, patriotism, loyalism, republicanism, capitalism, marxism culture, race, ethnicity etc etc religion and atheism too.

[ballyboneman]

@PostITnoteGUY ...and let's not forget that Catholics fought on the side of William as well as James and that William's campaign was supported by the Pope Alexander VIII, both major figures in the League of Augsburg. This is history that simply cannot be hand waved away. That people stood under the banner of religious denomination to identify themselves is undeniable; but so is the fact that they stood under the banners of nationality and allegiance to an Irish Republic or the Crown.

[ballyboneman]

@PostITnoteGUY : And the problem is it certainly wasn't 100% Protestant on one side and 100% Catholic on the other. There were and indeed are many pro union Catholics and a significant number of Republican Protestants. There were many protestants involved in the civil rights campaign and even as far back as the 1798 rebellion......

[Sherwulff]

we hear a lot of the protestant vs catholic bit over here in the US as to the discord in your neck of the woods as well. but the way you lay out the argument seems clear to me that there is a lot more to it than religious convictions - power and resources as you say.

[ballyboneman]

@Sherwulff People don't like 'complicated'. They want 'this is good, that is bad' and that is one of the major reasons why it takes such a fuckin' long time for shit to get sorted out.

[marleyboro]

nice vid

[ballyboneman]

@marleyboro Cheers

[ballyboneman]

@PostITnoteGUY Additionally I did not imply that religion did not have a part to play, in fact I stated in the video that it did; but what I will contend is that the problem is the weaknesses and failings in people not the tenets of the faith.

[ballyboneman]

@PostITnoteGUY 'The dividing lines were religion based.' So nothing to do with being Irish or British then? Nothing to do with Irish Culture and Ulster Scots Culture? Nothing to do with the theft of land from idiginous people? Nothing to do with subjugation and domination?

I've always lived in North Belfast; I have family and friends on both sides of the conflict and Ive lost family and friends too; I know whereof I speak