Even hear with you I am trying to keep you engaged without backing every word up with scripture. You sound very educated and I am only assuming you've read it and if you wanted to see if what Im saying is scripturally sound youd look it up yourself. Aside from the great commission given to us by Jesus. We just become excited about our faith. Especially a new believer. Accepting Jesus is receiving forgiveness, a weight lifted, a comfort that someone will be there to pick u up when u fall down.
Christians are told by Jesus to go throughout the nations to preach the gospel. We believe we have a duty to help people understand its meaning because we dont want people to go to hell. I personally dont make a habit of shoving it down people's throats, but am taught that by my loving attitude and actions people will be compelled to see that I am a Christian. I talk with people about it, but I stay away from preaching.
No offence, but you Christians really should chill. There are millions of non-Christian theists in America, why is it I only hear Christians calling in to the show? How come you don't hear Hindus calling in?
Answer: cuz they keep their religion private, to themselves!
Please Christians, do the same. Practice your religion all u want, but keep it private.
@Finally4Christ Also, the point of this was that Jesus' teachings are not original or special. This is a pattern in the history of the Bible, as quite a few traditional Jewish religious tales have been wholesale stolen from other sources:
-The Genesis Creation account is very similar to the Babylonian account, the Enuma Elish
-The story of Noah is incredibly similar to other 'global flood' stories, such as the Hindu epic, the Satapatha Brahmana.
The religious practices of Christians extends to a simple holy communion in which we thank Jesus for giving his blood and body for our sins by remembering him when we eat and drink. Anything more is just religious rules and rituals made up by the church. For instance teaching that baptism is required for salvation is false. What you show in the video is religion gone wrong. Christ is not against Pokemon, Santa Cause, gays, pain medication and so on. False teachings.
Buddhism is not like Christianity. Buddhism is a religion of meditation. Buddha practiced mediation to achieve a natural state of nirvana. Nothing less, nothing more. Another 'mind masturbation' technique as you so eloquently call it. Im sure you have heard the saying 'Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship.' Christ's teaching go directly against traditional religious rules and rituals.
search echo4angi.blogspot and add the .com to find a cute response I have regarding us being robots. I just uploaded this to a blog I created months ago and never utilized.
If you do not know heaven exists how can you know if you've arrived? Hell is not necessarily a punishment per say, but a result, a natural consequence. If I do not check a map for direction, getting lost is not a 'punishment' but a natural consequence. Many people who follow religion are like those who say I know the way, Ill use my own judgement or Ill ask the guy at the gas station (false teachers). But you seem to just say 'there is nowhere to go' and maybe havent looked at the map.
While I a) cannot coop with an effect w/o cause of creation b) accept that I cannot withstand the temptations of the flesh. c) am inspired to live for more than this life.
I only just now saw more comments you posted yesterday. This you tube page is driving me crazy. Is it too much to assert that you do not have a need for God? That a) the universe created itself. b) Your moral is sufficient for you and your close friends to live with. c) idea of eternity is of no motivation, in fact a hindrance to your motives.
Showing me this video says alot about the misguidance religion has had on every society ever! Sadly many people labeled as Christians by into religious teaching Catholicism being the worst. Christ is a unique teacher. He says to turn the other check, to love your enemies. In deed he says his kingdom is not of this world. So an 'alien' may be a more appropriate analogy for me to consider.
Turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and the Golden Rule were all ideas that predate Christ by hundreds of years. Siddartha Gautama, The Buddha, came nearly 550 years before Christ and his teachings are almost the mirror image of Christ's teachings.
There is even a movie, 'The Man From Earth', which posits that Christ was actually an immortal Paleolithic man who wanted to spread Buddhist teachings to the Jews.
So I have heard both that free will is not possible, As a previous debate with another atheist that our choices are a product of environment, culture and so on. We are just a product of the stuff in the box resulting in no free will. Now with you, that with God there is also no free will, and so has strengthened my view of destiny and predestination, which also follows biblical teaching. I beg you to consider your own. Now you have been a stone in which to sharpen a sward, so I thank you.
Love is not a feeling, but an action. Feelings are physiological and if I based my decisions on them Id be divorced and possibly would have aborted my first son. Love is a choice not an emotion.
It's isn't ONLY an emotion; you need to stop playing down how powerful emotions can be. For a materialist such as myself (i.e. I believe my personality is only the result of the chemical processes in my brain and throughout my body), emotions represent tangible, physical, REAL things that are happening within a person.
@Finally4Christ You should also not have chosen 'love your enemy' because that advice doesn't really hold water past its original intentions.
Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience, so 'love thy enemy' and other such commandments were always underscored with an understood 'this is meant for acts between Jews only'. It was Paul, not Jesus, who actively tried to spread Christianity to the Gentile Romans.
@TheGeneralCritic I dont believe this is true. As in the parable of the good Samaritan. The relationship between the Jews and the Samaritans were not friendly. Also his repeated good will toward the Roman was an example.
@Finally4Christ And finally, 'love thy enemy' is horrid advice. Yes, you should be willing to forgive enemies who are actively trying to change, but loving people who have done you nothing but harm isn't doing good in the world or working to change the other person; it's being a martyr. I don't see the value of martyrdom, so 'love thy enemy' just falls flat.
@TheGeneralCritic If you were about to be hit by a bus and someone pushed you out of the way and died, you would probably see the value. 'Loving people isnt doing good'?.. His martyrdom indeed has changed peoples hearts, So this is were personal testimonies do become valid evidence. This is the action in which we believe has saved us. Simply by recognizing He loved humanity so much that even in the face of death he forgave us. No matter how we think of ourselves, good or bad, he loves us.
You misunderstand my reference of supernatural love. Im not referring to my feelings of love for him, but of His feelings of love for us. It is not comprehensible the love demonstrated throughout his life and even in the face of death to forgive and love those who killed him.The video you show points out many fallacies of religious teaching. All the things mentions at the end of the film do not follow teachings of Jesus. Please be mindful that he was actually prosecuted by the church.
@Finally4Christ Your interpretations of that love can still be misleading. Your senses lie to you all the time.
You are not actually seeing the world around you, you are seeing the interpretation of your eyes' data.
You are not actually hearing the world around you, you are feeling the vibrations of sound waves as measured by the sensitive physical apparatus of your ear.
@Finally4Christ Physical things break down or misfire, and there is no reason to think that your feelings of love that you feel when you think of the 'sacrifice' Jesus made is anything other than some physical reaction to a natural, scientific stimulus.
The point of the video is that religious experiences can and do have very physical explanations.
If you could go to heaven and have all the people you loved, your favorite food, hobbies, everything you loved in this life. With no evil, all your physical pain removed... Could you be happy if Christ was not there? To a lover of Christ the answer is no, there is a super natural love experienced in Christ. A contentment in my soul that cannot be fulfilled outside of him. I know this sounds like a bunch of hogwash to you. Can you understand the love found in Christ's life? I cant.
@Finally4Christ Personal experiences and personal revelations are the worst sort of the worst type of evidence (anecdotal).
Our senses are not as accurate as we would like to believe. Usually this is not a problem, because we have readily available information. My eyes tell me that grass is green, and I can go outside and confirm it.
@Finally4Christ These experiences of love you have are quite like my allegory about alien abductees a few pages ago.
Even if an alien abductee passes a lie detector test about his experience, this still does not prove that he was really abducted by aliens. He could have had a psychotic break, or unknowingly ingested hallucinogens, or one of a thousand other known, naturalistic explanations.
@Finally4Christ The brain is a powerful engine of self-delusion and hallucination. If you find this somewhat hard to swallow, consider this:
Every night, for 8-9 hours, you willingly fall unconscious and have vivid, incredibly realistic hallucinations of everything from the fantastic to the mundane. The only way you have to know that they are false is when you wake up.
@Finally4Christ If your brain can manufacture entire worlds inside your mind- a Holodeck in your head!- cooking up feelings of love and warmth that feel like they are being generated outside of your mind is peanuts, a simple parlor trick.
I am being thrown into a cocoon on this issue you bring up on free will. With a few days of meditation on this I understand and respect your view on predestined destiny. I cannot refute that man was created with foreknowledge that ALL people would be born unrighteous, weak, and evil. God created us with a need for Him. I understand how you say we have no free will if God foresees our decision. But I contend that He does not interfere with our free will as we are conscious of it.
@Finally4Christ What reward is Heaven with the knowledge that those closest to you, people you have known and loved, are burning forever in a pit of fire? God would need to blind you to that fact- an immoral act of mind-control- or you would have to be such a base, inhuman sycophant as to believe that God is right and just in his punishment of the 'wicked' and 'damned'.
@Finally4Christ Heaven- the promise of an eternal paradise- could only ever appeal to a creature with a short, painful life. Eternal life, like the concept of utopia, is merely the intense want to not have a toothache while you are suffering a toothache.
@Finally4Christ Eternity removes all value from human endeavor and existence, because they can only have value in a short and finite life. That is why we are so driven to love, laugh, strive, create, and even to destroy. The very brevity of life gives it that urgency, that need to 'take care of business'. But in the realm of the eternal, what need would there be to do anything? There's always tomorrow, and in the realm of the eternal, even 'tomorrow' loses all meaning.
@TheGeneralCritic Maybe you have never had a toothache? Maybe your life is painless and perfect. I dont know of a single persons who is... SO many people have no hope in this life, no appreciation. You sound as though you do appreciate it, but if you live by our own standards how are you to be held accountable? Are you so righteous that state law is enough to keep your personal life in line? Do you never say a prayer in times of trouble?
@Finally4Christ I am held accountable by the people around me in my society, and my society is held accountable by other societies.
We live in a system that has evolved over hundreds of years since the Enlightenment and, along with the evolving moral zeitgeist (spirit of the times), has turned brutal dictatorships into the egalitarian, democratic, representative and reciprocal societies that dominate the First World.
@Finally4Christ Also, this argument- that my life is too perfect, that's why I do not fear God- is a Straw Man, and it is one side of the double-sided 'why do atheists disbelieve' coin.
If my life were painful and horrid, why then the explanation must be that I hate God for my plight in life and THAT'S why I disbelieve him.
It can't be that I find no concrete, scientific reason to believe that such an unscientific being exists.
@Finally4Christ In my eyes, the very concept of heaven is a greedy, self-centered concept. For those who do not realize what a wonderful gift this one life that we know for a fact we get truly is, they wring their hands and waste their time trying to get a better position in a supposed eternal life. They debase themselves at the feet of cosmic patriarchs in the vain hope that this is not all there is, and they waste so much time worrying about issues that have little importance.
@Finally4Christ Heaven distracts from the now, and it can seriously hamstring humanity if we continue to allow a majority of the population to place all the real, serious problems we have on the altar of God and hope for the best.
One pair of hands doing something positive is better than a billion knees bent in prayer and supplication.
@Finally4Christ Yes, I would. It is only through the work of human hands that we move forward, and for the past five hundred years, brave men and women who have questioned the status quo of both religion and government have moved our understanding of the universe by leaps and bounds.
Humanistic, scientific achievement has engendered more social progress in the past five hundred years than faith in God has done since mankind first evolved thousands of years ago.
@Finally4Christ Free will is an illusion in a universe with an omniscient, omnipotent god. He cannot interfere with what does not exist.
And now this just begs the great moral question: why create something a certain way and then punish it for acting according to its nature? I again refer you to the 'destroying a robot for following its programming' allegory. God created us with this nature but somehow WE are responsible for it? How does that make any bloody sense?
@TheGeneralCritic If I build a robot that I give free will to, in hope that they will do my will... What I am I to do with the ones who will not choose to recognize me as its programmer? God creates us with good intent. Knowing we would need to come to a point of choice. Isaiah 43:7
@Finally4Christ You are still stuck on this idea that disbelief is sufficient and justified grounds for eternal punishment. This is an abhorrent and disproportionate punishment, and until you recognize it as such, there's nothing more we can discuss on this particular topic.
@Finally4Christ You also continue to believe, even after I have shown its falsehood, in this idea of free will.
Once again: free will cannot exist as anything more than an illusion in a universe with an omniscient and omnipotent God. They are mutually exclusive ideas. Until you drop this baseless belief, we'll just keep going in circles.
You assume that a person who is currently destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God. You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability. Just because God foresees your choice does not undermine your ability to choose for yourself. I can ask my kids if they want pizza or chilli for dinner, and I know they will choose pizza. This does not limit their ability to choose.
@Finally4Christ And this still does not stop hell from being a disproportionate punishment; it is still an infinite punishment for a finite crime, the antithesis of justice. It is cruel, unusual, Draconian, and a bunch of other mean words, and the being who created it and populates it through his twisted and arbitrary rules-lawyering is not worthy of my worship but my scorn. I am more moral than your God, you are, so is pretty much everyone on the planet.
I have been thinking alot about what you said about God's authority. I see your point that to be under that authority one need to submit to it. I was a very rebellious teen, in fact I was a run away on and off for almost 2 years. I refused to accept their 'authority'. So I would say he has authority over our universe, as nature must submit to the laws given to it. But to have authority in our personal lives, we must submit ourselves to it.
God exerts undeserved power over EVERY HUMAN BEING after they die, whether or not they have submitted themselves to his authority. I have not submitted to God's authority, I do not recognize his right to rule or the validity of his commands, and yet I am still supposedly subject to his power and his punishments when I die. That is not authority (validity of the use of power), that is simply power (the ability to enact force).
@Finally4Christ Yes I have and Hume actually argued against the Argument from Design (The Watchmaker Argument being a version of the Argument from Design). Hume argued that for the design argument to be feasible, it must be true that order and purpose are observed only when they result from design; order is often observed to result from mindless processes like the generation of snowflakes and crystals. Design can account for only a tiny part of our experience of order.
At the beginning he (the host) tries to dismiss the argument because we already know what a watch is. But in Paley's watchmaker story the comparing the said found watch is compared to a rock. Seeing that a rock is of no particular function and can be contemplated & easily concluded that it has always been there. While a watch (imagined been seen for the first time) is obviously not apart of the natural surrounding, and after close observation, is obviously designed. Romans 1:20 check it
@Finally4Christ The point is we have nothing against which to compare this universe. Seeing design is a comparative process, and without a point of reference, the entire universe might as well be made of watches.
Design does occur in nature, but it is not intelligent- it is the unthinking, unseeing force of natural selection that drives organisms to adapt or die within a certain environment. This can give the illusion of intelligent design where there truly is none.
@TheGeneralCritic In the watchmaker analogy Palley compares an eye to the lens of a telescope. If you can find the presence of purpose, function and precise assembly you can conclude it was designed. In fact much of what man designs is contrived from nature.
1. to plan and fashion artistically or skillfully.
2. to intend for a definite purpose
3. to form or conceive in the mind; contrive; plan:
@Finally4Christ Natural selection is not meant to explain the origins of the universe; natural selection explains how organisms that already exist change over time according to outside pressures.
For the origins of life, you want biogenesis, whether it is xenobiogenesis (life from a comet) or abiogenesis (life from non-life)
@Finally4Christ For the origins of the universe, you want cosmology, and even cosmologists will say that we have no reliable information on what happened before the Big Bang.
@Finally4Christ And I even stated before that organisms ARE designed, but they are not intelligently designed. They are designed in the sense that they are shaped by their surrounding environment. That is why every animal seems so perfectly suited to its environment; the ones that survive for us to observe are necessarily the best suited to their environment, otherwise they wouldn't have survived for us to observe them.
@TheGeneralCritic The four points you have tried to discredit are the 4 bullets on the word design in my dictionary. So I think you mean to imply that things of nature are adapted, not designed, to suit their environments. I just simply dont agree.
1. to plan and fashion artistically or skillfully.
Well, we can nip this one in the bud. The human body is a treasure-trove of bad design choices. Our backs are shaped in such a fashion as to breed lower back problems late in life. The way we take in and process light through our eyes would actually work better if the mechanism was backwards. And then there's the appendix.
@TheGeneralCritic To criticize the design/adaptation of things found in nature does not diminish the fact that they have function. Why hasnt natural selection eliminated the appendix? Things found in nature are often not perfect in form or function. I intend to imply they are irregular from their intended design. But can a random rock be found irregular? What does not have purpose or functionality, what is random cannot be found as defective.
@Finally4Christ Function does not signify that a mind was involved at any point in the process. Natural selection only leaves for us to observe, the functions that are best suited to their local environments, or at the very least do not harm an organism's chances of spreading its genes.
@Finally4Christ Take the appendix for example: it offers no real advantages to human beings, but it also offers no real hindrance. So human beings that have appendices and those that don't are on a level playing field, and thus neither group is selected to continue their genetic line. This is what can be called an 'evolutionarily neutral' trait- does not help, does not hinder.
@Finally4Christ See also: why plants are green. Green coloring in and of itself offers no real advantage, but chlorophyll (the mechanism by which plants turn sunlight into energy) is green. So neutral traits can continue to survive by being attached to positive or advantageous traits. So even if the appendix by itself is a neutral trait, perhaps it is somehow attached to an advantageous trait.
Wishful thinking and egotistical anthropocentric nonsense. There is no good scientific evidence that we are put here for any kind of purpose, or that life exists for any kind of purpose.
@TheGeneralCritic The purpose presented in the watchmaker argument present the question of purpose of life, but a purpose of functionality. I see that the things in nature do have functionality, a purpose. In a physical sense, life forms are formed to procreate. And many times we find functionality and purpose in non life forms as well such as the moon.
@Finally4Christ We only find functionality in the moon because, as life, we are pre-disposed to presuming that an Earth with life is somehow 'better' or 'more perfect' than an Earth without life. Without the Moon, Earth would not have life (Google for the citation, it's been a long day and I'm tired).
@TheGeneralCritic You really feel our planet is no better or worse than a planet without life? This is where I just give up.
I guess, if you truly believe your statement above, I can understand why you feel life has no purpose. no free will. no good vs. evil. This argument cannot be only based on logic. To know in your heart that that is not true is to know we do have purpose. And there is no purpose without something to be a purpose for.
@Finally4Christ I do believe life has purpose and that life is a good thing; I am not arrogant enough to believe that the purpose of life is an objective, transcendental idea. It is a subjective assessment made by life itself, not an element of the universe like gravity or physics. The purpose of life is tied to life itself, and once life has been snuffed from the universe (as it will be eventually), that subjective purpose will disappear with it.
@Finally4Christ This doesn't lessen the importance of that purpose in the here and now, nor does it get rid of ideas like free will or good and evil. It merely recognizes that our ideas are not the recognitions of inherent truths of the universe that will continue forever after our demise, but subjective ideas that are generated by our existence.
In short: good and evil exist only because we are here to ascribe those labels to certain things we call 'good' and 'evil'.
@TheGeneralCritic This is another view I disagree with. But not a topic I am studying at this moment. What you are saying is that because you have life you will accept a purpose for your life that you yourself (or your environment) will determine. You have no recognition that your life is a gift. No accountability, no responsibility. Except to and for what you wish or what is demanded of you. This gets ethical and Im sorry to say will lead me straight into scripture.
@Finally4Christ I am accountable to other people. Yes, I could be a jerk and have things my own way...for a short time, until I ran out of people who would tolerate me.
@Finally4Christ My life is a gift, but not in the way you mean. My life is short, ephemeral, and all the more special because, not in spite of, its brevity.
@TheGeneralCritic My life is a gift in the literal sense. My life is eternal. How to prove this to another person in any logical sense is ridicules. Especially without mentioning Jesus. Solely on a logical or scientific platform it simply cannot make sense. Im going to have to preach if anyone is to understand. Wish me luck in my class next week. Although I know Ill need more than luck, Ill need the mind of Christ to speak any life into my teacher.
@TheGeneralCritic Thanks for chatting. I do pray for your heart to be open when you next hear the word of God, He loves you. Jesus was tortured and crucified for you to know it. He went missing from the tomb and even his own followers didnt believe it, at first.
@TheGeneralCritic I would rather spend it as it were eternal. Once committed to that 'mindset' you see God's hand in everything. Its obvious. You become accountable to something higher than yourself and can feel God raising you up to be more than what you can attribute to your own will. The more you trust in His will, the more you can feel his power in your life.
@Finally4Christ Of course, I was like that once, too: taking certain beliefs and placing them in a mental box, where no rational inquiry could find them.
@TheGeneralCritic Im sure you have considered that if your right, no harm no foul (except the trail and errors in this life as you try to figure it out on your own).
@Finally4Christ If you're right (which, as the odds go, is astronomically thin), then your God is a tyrant and a bully and I wouldn't worship him (cont.)
@Finally4Christ If your god does exist, he created the universe with foreknowledge of the events that would take place within it. Since, according to the dogma of your religion,
@Finally4Christ nothing happens that is not a part of God's plan or goes against his will, if I die without believe in God, he created me knowing that I would die and be damned.
@TheGeneralCritic And?? That upsets you?Although that may be true, its not his will for us. Thats blaming God for Damnation, when we have actually chosen it for our selves. He creates us and knows what our will for ourselves will be.
@Finally4Christ We can't choose anything in a Universe with a being with power and knowledge like God! He created us knowing how each person would act!
@Finally4Christ Every person who has gone screaming into this supposed abyss has done so with full foreknowledge from this God, AND HE HAS DONE NOTHING!
@Finally4Christ He has not come to this world in a way that cannot be denied, he has not spoken to us in a way that is freely available to all! He chooses to reveal himself to a
@TheGeneralCritic Life itself cannot be denied and there is nothing brought into existence without a cause. This is my study on the watchmaker argument.
Biblically he has revealed himself through His word (the scriptures), and also by special revelation the holy spirit who lives within us.
@Finally4Christ And if you asked a Muslim, he would say that Allah has revealed his will through the Quran and his prophet Muhammad. Ask a Jew and he'll say there is no prophet yet.
@Finally4Christ bunch of desert-dwelling savages, not once but many times, with this supposedly important message! WHY!? When my fate hangs in the balance, when it is my eternal
@TheGeneralCritic Not really sure who your referring to as desert-dwelling savages here, as I think hes revealed himself to a few groups with this description... Another good movie is End of the Spear. True story about missionaries who get murdered by the tribe they are trying to connect with.
looks like some cord was stuck here as you really start to go off...
@Finally4Christ soul that is supposedly at risk, he chooses this circuitous and back-asswards way of doing things rather than just reveal himself to all of humanity?
@Finally4Christ So God sent himself who is also his own son to save us from a punishment he made by sacrificing himself to himself? How the hell does that count?
@Finally4Christ Why not get rid of the punishment? Or forgive us without a sacrifice? This again begs the question of why God requires a blood sacrifice for sin in the first place.
@Finally4Christ I did not choose to be born in this century, when the supposed miracles of God have been reduced to his son's face on a flapjack. I did not choose to be born in a time
@Finally4Christ when rational thought and scientific thinking can pole holes in his logic that you can drive a truck through. If he exists, if he is who the Bible purports him to be,
@Finally4Christ I am here because he put me here. He knows my heart- he made it!- and yet he does NOTHING that he knows will prove his existence to me!
@TheGeneralCritic All sins are forgivable. Have you ever had a friend or loved one steal from you, and your anger was more so that they never confessed or apologized more so than of the fact they stole from you. I have a brother like this. He would steel from me every time he came over! I would be angry for a while and not allow him over. Then I would think, surely hes sorry, or surely hes matured, or surely he knows he going to seriously damage our relationship if he continues
@Finally4Christ This still doesn't answer the question of why a blood sacrifice is necessary for sin. If sin is forgivable, why this whole circuitous sacrifice bollocks?
@TheGeneralCritic Ok, we are free agents of our hearts, minds, and actions. God has no sin in him and cannot have sin in his kingdom. When we die we will be without a physical body and most sin (sins of the flesh) we wont be able to do even if we wanted to. So dont think hell will be a physical place either. This is a place where only your soul can go. The essence of who you are.
@TheGeneralCritic Do you not think your sins here on earth affect or shape who you are, on a spiritual level? When asked of Jesus what is the greatest commandment, he answered Love.
@Finally4Christ I will always agree that crime entails punishment; again, my problems are manifold. God takes his authority without my consent, and punishes disproportionately.
@Finally4Christ Infinite punishment for finite crimes is not and shall never be a just punishment. No human crime can be punished in such a way and be justified.
@TheGeneralCritic What bothered me most was that he never apologized. He always denied it. Now I have to shut the doors to all the rooms when he comes over and watch him like a hawk! I still love him, Id help him out if he needed help. But he just took advantage of me, I can never have him stay here. How can we be allowed to stay in Gods kingdom if he cannot trust us? Repentance is all he asks for. And Repentance can only come when we bring ourselves to Christ's death.
@TheGeneralCritic Blood=life, thats pretty basic. After blood, there is nothing left to give.
In the old testament, a blood sacrifice atoned for sin (covered sin), but Jesus sacrifice washes sin away. And blood sacrifice is no longer needed. He paid the price in full for your sin.
@Finally4Christ This still does not answer the question of WHY God requires a blood sacrifice to forgive sin. Why does something have to die in order for something else to be forgiven?
@Finally4Christ Then there are the many horrible actions in the Bible, such as God ordering Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, 'tricking' King Jephthah into sacrificing his daughter...
@TheGeneralCritic I have not read about Jephthah, but Abraham and his son... Basically a test. Do you not think Issac could have not found off his old man? He would have willingly died there...
@Finally4Christ What right does God have to tell someone to sacrifice their own son? And why is it considered a virtue that Abraham just up and says "Duuuuuuuuh, okay!"
@TheGeneralCritic Ummm he's God, he has the authority. Whats confusing is that if he is all loving, why would he do such a thing? Because he has a bigger picture. He knew Abraham would do it, but needed Abraham to know himself that he would do it. At that point God says Phyic! Use the lamb... Basically everything in the old testament can be an analogy to Christ. Christ was Gods son sacrificed.
@TheGeneralCritic Well hes sorta the source of all life. He gives and takes away... Is there some specific characteristic your looking for to define the authoritative status? Cuz Im guessing he has it.
@Finally4Christ As an American, I firmly believe that authority is, and only should be, derived from the consent of the governed. God as he is presented to me in the Bible not only disrespects consent (hardening Pharoah's heart, sending delusions to fool false prophets, etc), he seems to thrive on the 'Might Makes Right'/'I brought you into this world, I can take you out' mentality.
@Finally4Christ Now, you can probably try to get out of that by saying that God has offered us a choice, etc. But has he really?
I choose right now not to go to Hell. The ball is now in God's court. He can respect my decision and my rights as a human being, or he can assert his power (not his authority) and banish me to hell after I die. So even if I do not accept God/Jesus as my Lord and Savior, he still gets to exercise his power over me.
You have no recognition that your life is a gift. No accountability, no responsibility. Except to and for what you wish or what is demanded of you. You make your own rules. Thats what this world does. When people, authorities, governments, ext.. dont have a higher power to be accountable to, they make their own rules. Thats when might makes right.
@Finally4Christ So far as I can see, the only claim of legitimate authority God has on his side is, all together now, 'I brought you into this world, so I can take you out'.
@TheGeneralCritic Your parent had authority over you, now if you choose not to respect that authority, You can refuse to accept it over you. Why would you be let into heaven at that point? Hes not going to drag you in there. Nobody who doesnt want to be there is going to be forced to go, and as much as your grandmas wants to sneek you in, youve basically gotta want to be there, which in turn means accepting his authority.
@TheGeneralCritic Your parents had the right and capability to hold you accountable and punish you when appropriate. Now parents are human and dont exercise their authority correctly always. Either too stern or excessive or too leanest.
@Finally4Christ But God can be an imaginary combination of Judge Dredd and Robocop who can mete out perfect justice all the time and I've heard this one before. :V
@TheGeneralCritic Says you. His judge will be appropriate, why do you think it wont? Your analogy of killing a Jaywalker isnt quite accurate. Our hearts condition can be good or evil, two choices.
@Finally4Christ This is one of the many reasons I see him as a tyrant and a bully. I could be just as 'good' as a believer, even better, and devote my life to the betterment of my fellow man and simply for being a disbeliever I will be banished to eternal torment without my consent. That is not authority, that is power and nothing else.
As the video I linked you to stated, God is not good, he is only strong.
@TheGeneralCritic But your hood works are not proof of love. People do good so they look good, for money, it makes them feel good... Our love for him and/or His love in us cause us to love others so good works is a 'fruit of the spirit', but love is what were aiming for not good works.
@Finally4Christ I have run into this problem many times, and I have to say this: good works are all I have to go on. I cannot know what is truly in other people's hearts.
My mother loves me. But if one day she decided my atheism was too much to handle and she couldn't see me anymore, I'd have to redefine that relationship to compensate for new data, coming to the conclusion that my mother didn't love me anymore.
@Finally4Christ But if she never told me that and continued to do good things for me and love me, I am perfectly justified in believing she loves me even though deep down she might resent and loathe me for who I am. I can only know the side of people they wish to present to me.
@TheGeneralCritic Ok, this is where we can say she cant fool God, he knows her heart. If she is just putting on a show, why is that? Only God can be her judge. And I believe whatever he decides wont be a surprise to her.
Jesus changes our heart. We want to tell the world. Just like when you find out your pregnant or just got engaged. Its exciting to us.
Finally4Christ 3 days ago
Even hear with you I am trying to keep you engaged without backing every word up with scripture. You sound very educated and I am only assuming you've read it and if you wanted to see if what Im saying is scripturally sound youd look it up yourself. Aside from the great commission given to us by Jesus. We just become excited about our faith. Especially a new believer. Accepting Jesus is receiving forgiveness, a weight lifted, a comfort that someone will be there to pick u up when u fall down.
Finally4Christ 3 days ago
Christians are told by Jesus to go throughout the nations to preach the gospel. We believe we have a duty to help people understand its meaning because we dont want people to go to hell. I personally dont make a habit of shoving it down people's throats, but am taught that by my loving attitude and actions people will be compelled to see that I am a Christian. I talk with people about it, but I stay away from preaching.
Finally4Christ 3 days ago
No offence, but you Christians really should chill. There are millions of non-Christian theists in America, why is it I only hear Christians calling in to the show? How come you don't hear Hindus calling in?
Answer: cuz they keep their religion private, to themselves!
Please Christians, do the same. Practice your religion all u want, but keep it private.
Casshyr 4 days ago
Buddha's teachings are similar, Im not going to argue with you on this. Buddha was a great guy, I give him props for being awesome.
Just curious, why did you come to this watchmaker argument in the first place? Where are you from?
Finally4Christ 4 days ago
@Finally4Christ I love the Atheist Experience. It's a great show and it helped me on my path from being an agnostic theist to an agnostic atheist.
TheGeneralCritic 4 days ago
@Finally4Christ Also, the point of this was that Jesus' teachings are not original or special. This is a pattern in the history of the Bible, as quite a few traditional Jewish religious tales have been wholesale stolen from other sources:
-The Genesis Creation account is very similar to the Babylonian account, the Enuma Elish
-The story of Noah is incredibly similar to other 'global flood' stories, such as the Hindu epic, the Satapatha Brahmana.
TheGeneralCritic 4 days ago
@TheGeneralCritic I find this very interesting, I have yet to take my world religion class. I will be looking to learn of these things.
Finally4Christ 3 days ago
watch?v=JRl8Ew6p1xc&feature=related
Here is a kid who is filled with the spirit, notice how he isnt convulsing on the floor.
I believe people who have a physical spiritual experience (as with convulsions) are releasing negative energy.
Finally4Christ 4 days ago
The religious practices of Christians extends to a simple holy communion in which we thank Jesus for giving his blood and body for our sins by remembering him when we eat and drink. Anything more is just religious rules and rituals made up by the church. For instance teaching that baptism is required for salvation is false. What you show in the video is religion gone wrong. Christ is not against Pokemon, Santa Cause, gays, pain medication and so on. False teachings.
Finally4Christ 4 days ago
Buddhism is not like Christianity. Buddhism is a religion of meditation. Buddha practiced mediation to achieve a natural state of nirvana. Nothing less, nothing more. Another 'mind masturbation' technique as you so eloquently call it. Im sure you have heard the saying 'Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship.' Christ's teaching go directly against traditional religious rules and rituals.
Finally4Christ 4 days ago
@Finally4Christ
"One should seek for others the happiness one desires for himself"
Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama, c. 563 - c. 483 B.C.)
Sounds very familiar, doesn't it?
TheGeneralCritic 4 days ago
search echo4angi.blogspot and add the .com to find a cute response I have regarding us being robots. I just uploaded this to a blog I created months ago and never utilized.
Finally4Christ 5 days ago
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If you do not know heaven exists how can you know if you've arrived? Hell is not necessarily a punishment per say, but a result, a natural consequence. If I do not check a map for direction, getting lost is not a 'punishment' but a natural consequence. Many people who follow religion are like those who say I know the way, Ill use my own judgement or Ill ask the guy at the gas station (false teachers). But you seem to just say 'there is nowhere to go' and maybe havent looked at the map.
Finally4Christ 5 days ago
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Finally4Christ 5 days ago
You had asked me Would you rather spend this life as if it were eternal, when it turns out that it isn't?
Or would you rather spend this life as if it were not going to last forever, no matter if it does or does not?
I would like specify the answer and say I would rather live and die for the sake of Christ, even if Im wrong.
Finally4Christ 5 days ago
While I a) cannot coop with an effect w/o cause of creation b) accept that I cannot withstand the temptations of the flesh. c) am inspired to live for more than this life.
Finally4Christ 5 days ago
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I only just now saw more comments you posted yesterday. This you tube page is driving me crazy. Is it too much to assert that you do not have a need for God? That a) the universe created itself. b) Your moral is sufficient for you and your close friends to live with. c) idea of eternity is of no motivation, in fact a hindrance to your motives.
Finally4Christ 5 days ago
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Finally4Christ 5 days ago
Showing me this video says alot about the misguidance religion has had on every society ever! Sadly many people labeled as Christians by into religious teaching Catholicism being the worst. Christ is a unique teacher. He says to turn the other check, to love your enemies. In deed he says his kingdom is not of this world. So an 'alien' may be a more appropriate analogy for me to consider.
Finally4Christ 5 days ago
@Finally4Christ Christ is not a unique teacher at all.
Turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and the Golden Rule were all ideas that predate Christ by hundreds of years. Siddartha Gautama, The Buddha, came nearly 550 years before Christ and his teachings are almost the mirror image of Christ's teachings.
There is even a movie, 'The Man From Earth', which posits that Christ was actually an immortal Paleolithic man who wanted to spread Buddhist teachings to the Jews.
TheGeneralCritic 5 days ago
So I have heard both that free will is not possible, As a previous debate with another atheist that our choices are a product of environment, culture and so on. We are just a product of the stuff in the box resulting in no free will. Now with you, that with God there is also no free will, and so has strengthened my view of destiny and predestination, which also follows biblical teaching. I beg you to consider your own. Now you have been a stone in which to sharpen a sward, so I thank you.
Finally4Christ 5 days ago
Love is not a feeling, but an action. Feelings are physiological and if I based my decisions on them Id be divorced and possibly would have aborted my first son. Love is a choice not an emotion.
Finally4Christ 5 days ago
@Finally4Christ
>Love is a choice not an emotion
Wrong. Love is an emotion. Acting on that emotion is the choice.
TheGeneralCritic 5 days ago
@TheGeneralCritic How is is possible to love your enemy if it is only an emotion?
Finally4Christ 4 days ago
@Finally4Christ
>Only an emotion
It's isn't ONLY an emotion; you need to stop playing down how powerful emotions can be. For a materialist such as myself (i.e. I believe my personality is only the result of the chemical processes in my brain and throughout my body), emotions represent tangible, physical, REAL things that are happening within a person.
TheGeneralCritic 4 days ago
@Finally4Christ You should also not have chosen 'love your enemy' because that advice doesn't really hold water past its original intentions.
Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience, so 'love thy enemy' and other such commandments were always underscored with an understood 'this is meant for acts between Jews only'. It was Paul, not Jesus, who actively tried to spread Christianity to the Gentile Romans.
TheGeneralCritic 4 days ago
@TheGeneralCritic I dont believe this is true. As in the parable of the good Samaritan. The relationship between the Jews and the Samaritans were not friendly. Also his repeated good will toward the Roman was an example.
Finally4Christ 3 days ago
@Finally4Christ And finally, 'love thy enemy' is horrid advice. Yes, you should be willing to forgive enemies who are actively trying to change, but loving people who have done you nothing but harm isn't doing good in the world or working to change the other person; it's being a martyr. I don't see the value of martyrdom, so 'love thy enemy' just falls flat.
TheGeneralCritic 4 days ago
@TheGeneralCritic If you were about to be hit by a bus and someone pushed you out of the way and died, you would probably see the value. 'Loving people isnt doing good'?.. His martyrdom indeed has changed peoples hearts, So this is were personal testimonies do become valid evidence. This is the action in which we believe has saved us. Simply by recognizing He loved humanity so much that even in the face of death he forgave us. No matter how we think of ourselves, good or bad, he loves us.
Finally4Christ 3 days ago
You misunderstand my reference of supernatural love. Im not referring to my feelings of love for him, but of His feelings of love for us. It is not comprehensible the love demonstrated throughout his life and even in the face of death to forgive and love those who killed him.The video you show points out many fallacies of religious teaching. All the things mentions at the end of the film do not follow teachings of Jesus. Please be mindful that he was actually prosecuted by the church.
Finally4Christ 5 days ago
@Finally4Christ Your interpretations of that love can still be misleading. Your senses lie to you all the time.
You are not actually seeing the world around you, you are seeing the interpretation of your eyes' data.
You are not actually hearing the world around you, you are feeling the vibrations of sound waves as measured by the sensitive physical apparatus of your ear.
TheGeneralCritic 5 days ago
@Finally4Christ Physical things break down or misfire, and there is no reason to think that your feelings of love that you feel when you think of the 'sacrifice' Jesus made is anything other than some physical reaction to a natural, scientific stimulus.
The point of the video is that religious experiences can and do have very physical explanations.
TheGeneralCritic 5 days ago
Can God save someone who is in Hell? This is what Jesus says...Luke 16:19-31
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
If you could go to heaven and have all the people you loved, your favorite food, hobbies, everything you loved in this life. With no evil, all your physical pain removed... Could you be happy if Christ was not there? To a lover of Christ the answer is no, there is a super natural love experienced in Christ. A contentment in my soul that cannot be fulfilled outside of him. I know this sounds like a bunch of hogwash to you. Can you understand the love found in Christ's life? I cant.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Personal experiences and personal revelations are the worst sort of the worst type of evidence (anecdotal).
Our senses are not as accurate as we would like to believe. Usually this is not a problem, because we have readily available information. My eyes tell me that grass is green, and I can go outside and confirm it.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ These experiences of love you have are quite like my allegory about alien abductees a few pages ago.
Even if an alien abductee passes a lie detector test about his experience, this still does not prove that he was really abducted by aliens. He could have had a psychotic break, or unknowingly ingested hallucinogens, or one of a thousand other known, naturalistic explanations.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ You seem like a reflective person, so here is something you need to reflect on:
Could your experience of reciprocal love for Jesus be explained through known, naturalistic, non-supernatural processes?
Could you simply be mistaken?
Could you be imagining the feelings?
Could the feelings be real yet you are falsely attributing them to a source outside your own mind?
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ The brain is a powerful engine of self-delusion and hallucination. If you find this somewhat hard to swallow, consider this:
Every night, for 8-9 hours, you willingly fall unconscious and have vivid, incredibly realistic hallucinations of everything from the fantastic to the mundane. The only way you have to know that they are false is when you wake up.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ If your brain can manufacture entire worlds inside your mind- a Holodeck in your head!- cooking up feelings of love and warmth that feel like they are being generated outside of your mind is peanuts, a simple parlor trick.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ This video has a lot of the things I'm trying to say about 'God's love' and 'Jesus' love':
/watch?v=4bnVlxV5KbU
TheGeneralCritic 6 days ago
I am being thrown into a cocoon on this issue you bring up on free will. With a few days of meditation on this I understand and respect your view on predestined destiny. I cannot refute that man was created with foreknowledge that ALL people would be born unrighteous, weak, and evil. God created us with a need for Him. I understand how you say we have no free will if God foresees our decision. But I contend that He does not interfere with our free will as we are conscious of it.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
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Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ What reward is Heaven with the knowledge that those closest to you, people you have known and loved, are burning forever in a pit of fire? God would need to blind you to that fact- an immoral act of mind-control- or you would have to be such a base, inhuman sycophant as to believe that God is right and just in his punishment of the 'wicked' and 'damned'.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Heaven- the promise of an eternal paradise- could only ever appeal to a creature with a short, painful life. Eternal life, like the concept of utopia, is merely the intense want to not have a toothache while you are suffering a toothache.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Eternity removes all value from human endeavor and existence, because they can only have value in a short and finite life. That is why we are so driven to love, laugh, strive, create, and even to destroy. The very brevity of life gives it that urgency, that need to 'take care of business'. But in the realm of the eternal, what need would there be to do anything? There's always tomorrow, and in the realm of the eternal, even 'tomorrow' loses all meaning.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Maybe you have never had a toothache? Maybe your life is painless and perfect. I dont know of a single persons who is... SO many people have no hope in this life, no appreciation. You sound as though you do appreciate it, but if you live by our own standards how are you to be held accountable? Are you so righteous that state law is enough to keep your personal life in line? Do you never say a prayer in times of trouble?
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ I am held accountable by the people around me in my society, and my society is held accountable by other societies.
We live in a system that has evolved over hundreds of years since the Enlightenment and, along with the evolving moral zeitgeist (spirit of the times), has turned brutal dictatorships into the egalitarian, democratic, representative and reciprocal societies that dominate the First World.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Also, this argument- that my life is too perfect, that's why I do not fear God- is a Straw Man, and it is one side of the double-sided 'why do atheists disbelieve' coin.
If my life were painful and horrid, why then the explanation must be that I hate God for my plight in life and THAT'S why I disbelieve him.
It can't be that I find no concrete, scientific reason to believe that such an unscientific being exists.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ In my eyes, the very concept of heaven is a greedy, self-centered concept. For those who do not realize what a wonderful gift this one life that we know for a fact we get truly is, they wring their hands and waste their time trying to get a better position in a supposed eternal life. They debase themselves at the feet of cosmic patriarchs in the vain hope that this is not all there is, and they waste so much time worrying about issues that have little importance.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Heaven distracts from the now, and it can seriously hamstring humanity if we continue to allow a majority of the population to place all the real, serious problems we have on the altar of God and hope for the best.
One pair of hands doing something positive is better than a billion knees bent in prayer and supplication.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Instead you suggest to place our serious problems in the hands of humans? The pair of hands who does Gods will is uncorrupted.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Yes, I would. It is only through the work of human hands that we move forward, and for the past five hundred years, brave men and women who have questioned the status quo of both religion and government have moved our understanding of the universe by leaps and bounds.
Humanistic, scientific achievement has engendered more social progress in the past five hundred years than faith in God has done since mankind first evolved thousands of years ago.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Free will is an illusion in a universe with an omniscient, omnipotent god. He cannot interfere with what does not exist.
And now this just begs the great moral question: why create something a certain way and then punish it for acting according to its nature? I again refer you to the 'destroying a robot for following its programming' allegory. God created us with this nature but somehow WE are responsible for it? How does that make any bloody sense?
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic If I build a robot that I give free will to, in hope that they will do my will... What I am I to do with the ones who will not choose to recognize me as its programmer? God creates us with good intent. Knowing we would need to come to a point of choice. Isaiah 43:7
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ You are still stuck on this idea that disbelief is sufficient and justified grounds for eternal punishment. This is an abhorrent and disproportionate punishment, and until you recognize it as such, there's nothing more we can discuss on this particular topic.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ You also continue to believe, even after I have shown its falsehood, in this idea of free will.
Once again: free will cannot exist as anything more than an illusion in a universe with an omniscient and omnipotent God. They are mutually exclusive ideas. Until you drop this baseless belief, we'll just keep going in circles.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
You assume that a person who is currently destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God. You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability. Just because God foresees your choice does not undermine your ability to choose for yourself. I can ask my kids if they want pizza or chilli for dinner, and I know they will choose pizza. This does not limit their ability to choose.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ No, people do not choose to go to hell.
Is God responsible for creating the rules by which souls are judged?
Is God responsible for the creation of man's nature and his supposed intrinsic sinfulness?
Is God responsible for the creation of hell?
Does God have the power to bring people out of hell?
Sending a human being to hell for acting in accordance to the nature you gave them is like destroying a robot for following its programming.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ And this still does not stop hell from being a disproportionate punishment; it is still an infinite punishment for a finite crime, the antithesis of justice. It is cruel, unusual, Draconian, and a bunch of other mean words, and the being who created it and populates it through his twisted and arbitrary rules-lawyering is not worthy of my worship but my scorn. I am more moral than your God, you are, so is pretty much everyone on the planet.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
I have been thinking alot about what you said about God's authority. I see your point that to be under that authority one need to submit to it. I was a very rebellious teen, in fact I was a run away on and off for almost 2 years. I refused to accept their 'authority'. So I would say he has authority over our universe, as nature must submit to the laws given to it. But to have authority in our personal lives, we must submit ourselves to it.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Again, you are missing the point.
God exerts undeserved power over EVERY HUMAN BEING after they die, whether or not they have submitted themselves to his authority. I have not submitted to God's authority, I do not recognize his right to rule or the validity of his commands, and yet I am still supposedly subject to his power and his punishments when I die. That is not authority (validity of the use of power), that is simply power (the ability to enact force).
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
Have you studies Humes dialogues?
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Yes I have and Hume actually argued against the Argument from Design (The Watchmaker Argument being a version of the Argument from Design). Hume argued that for the design argument to be feasible, it must be true that order and purpose are observed only when they result from design; order is often observed to result from mindless processes like the generation of snowflakes and crystals. Design can account for only a tiny part of our experience of order.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
At the beginning he (the host) tries to dismiss the argument because we already know what a watch is. But in Paley's watchmaker story the comparing the said found watch is compared to a rock. Seeing that a rock is of no particular function and can be contemplated & easily concluded that it has always been there. While a watch (imagined been seen for the first time) is obviously not apart of the natural surrounding, and after close observation, is obviously designed. Romans 1:20 check it
Finally4Christ 3 weeks ago
@Finally4Christ The point is we have nothing against which to compare this universe. Seeing design is a comparative process, and without a point of reference, the entire universe might as well be made of watches.
Design does occur in nature, but it is not intelligent- it is the unthinking, unseeing force of natural selection that drives organisms to adapt or die within a certain environment. This can give the illusion of intelligent design where there truly is none.
TheGeneralCritic 2 weeks ago
@TheGeneralCritic In the watchmaker analogy Palley compares an eye to the lens of a telescope. If you can find the presence of purpose, function and precise assembly you can conclude it was designed. In fact much of what man designs is contrived from nature.
1. to plan and fashion artistically or skillfully.
2. to intend for a definite purpose
3. to form or conceive in the mind; contrive; plan:
4. to assign in thought or intention; purpose:
PS Natural Selection cannot explain creation.
Finally4Christ 2 weeks ago
@Finally4Christ Natural selection is not meant to explain the origins of the universe; natural selection explains how organisms that already exist change over time according to outside pressures.
For the origins of life, you want biogenesis, whether it is xenobiogenesis (life from a comet) or abiogenesis (life from non-life)
TheGeneralCritic 2 weeks ago
@Finally4Christ For the origins of the universe, you want cosmology, and even cosmologists will say that we have no reliable information on what happened before the Big Bang.
TheGeneralCritic 2 weeks ago
@Finally4Christ And I even stated before that organisms ARE designed, but they are not intelligently designed. They are designed in the sense that they are shaped by their surrounding environment. That is why every animal seems so perfectly suited to its environment; the ones that survive for us to observe are necessarily the best suited to their environment, otherwise they wouldn't have survived for us to observe them.
TheGeneralCritic 2 weeks ago
@TheGeneralCritic The four points you have tried to discredit are the 4 bullets on the word design in my dictionary. So I think you mean to imply that things of nature are adapted, not designed, to suit their environments. I just simply dont agree.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ But let's go over your points one by one:
1. to plan and fashion artistically or skillfully.
Well, we can nip this one in the bud. The human body is a treasure-trove of bad design choices. Our backs are shaped in such a fashion as to breed lower back problems late in life. The way we take in and process light through our eyes would actually work better if the mechanism was backwards. And then there's the appendix.
TheGeneralCritic 2 weeks ago
@TheGeneralCritic To criticize the design/adaptation of things found in nature does not diminish the fact that they have function. Why hasnt natural selection eliminated the appendix? Things found in nature are often not perfect in form or function. I intend to imply they are irregular from their intended design. But can a random rock be found irregular? What does not have purpose or functionality, what is random cannot be found as defective.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Function does not signify that a mind was involved at any point in the process. Natural selection only leaves for us to observe, the functions that are best suited to their local environments, or at the very least do not harm an organism's chances of spreading its genes.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Take the appendix for example: it offers no real advantages to human beings, but it also offers no real hindrance. So human beings that have appendices and those that don't are on a level playing field, and thus neither group is selected to continue their genetic line. This is what can be called an 'evolutionarily neutral' trait- does not help, does not hinder.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ See also: why plants are green. Green coloring in and of itself offers no real advantage, but chlorophyll (the mechanism by which plants turn sunlight into energy) is green. So neutral traits can continue to survive by being attached to positive or advantageous traits. So even if the appendix by itself is a neutral trait, perhaps it is somehow attached to an advantageous trait.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ
2. to intend for a definite purpose.
Wishful thinking and egotistical anthropocentric nonsense. There is no good scientific evidence that we are put here for any kind of purpose, or that life exists for any kind of purpose.
TheGeneralCritic 2 weeks ago
@TheGeneralCritic The purpose presented in the watchmaker argument present the question of purpose of life, but a purpose of functionality. I see that the things in nature do have functionality, a purpose. In a physical sense, life forms are formed to procreate. And many times we find functionality and purpose in non life forms as well such as the moon.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ We only find functionality in the moon because, as life, we are pre-disposed to presuming that an Earth with life is somehow 'better' or 'more perfect' than an Earth without life. Without the Moon, Earth would not have life (Google for the citation, it's been a long day and I'm tired).
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic You really feel our planet is no better or worse than a planet without life? This is where I just give up.
I guess, if you truly believe your statement above, I can understand why you feel life has no purpose. no free will. no good vs. evil. This argument cannot be only based on logic. To know in your heart that that is not true is to know we do have purpose. And there is no purpose without something to be a purpose for.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ I do believe life has purpose and that life is a good thing; I am not arrogant enough to believe that the purpose of life is an objective, transcendental idea. It is a subjective assessment made by life itself, not an element of the universe like gravity or physics. The purpose of life is tied to life itself, and once life has been snuffed from the universe (as it will be eventually), that subjective purpose will disappear with it.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ This doesn't lessen the importance of that purpose in the here and now, nor does it get rid of ideas like free will or good and evil. It merely recognizes that our ideas are not the recognitions of inherent truths of the universe that will continue forever after our demise, but subjective ideas that are generated by our existence.
In short: good and evil exist only because we are here to ascribe those labels to certain things we call 'good' and 'evil'.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic This is another view I disagree with. But not a topic I am studying at this moment. What you are saying is that because you have life you will accept a purpose for your life that you yourself (or your environment) will determine. You have no recognition that your life is a gift. No accountability, no responsibility. Except to and for what you wish or what is demanded of you. This gets ethical and Im sorry to say will lead me straight into scripture.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ I am accountable to other people. Yes, I could be a jerk and have things my own way...for a short time, until I ran out of people who would tolerate me.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ My life is a gift, but not in the way you mean. My life is short, ephemeral, and all the more special because, not in spite of, its brevity.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic My life is a gift in the literal sense. My life is eternal. How to prove this to another person in any logical sense is ridicules. Especially without mentioning Jesus. Solely on a logical or scientific platform it simply cannot make sense. Im going to have to preach if anyone is to understand. Wish me luck in my class next week. Although I know Ill need more than luck, Ill need the mind of Christ to speak any life into my teacher.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Thanks for chatting. I do pray for your heart to be open when you next hear the word of God, He loves you. Jesus was tortured and crucified for you to know it. He went missing from the tomb and even his own followers didnt believe it, at first.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ So now that we come to it, you have to retreat to faith. Disappointing.
You say your life is eternal. I ask you:
Would you rather spend this life as if it were eternal, when it turns out that it isn't?
Or would you rather spend this life as if it were not going to last forever, no matter if it does or does not?
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic I would rather spend it as it were eternal. Once committed to that 'mindset' you see God's hand in everything. Its obvious. You become accountable to something higher than yourself and can feel God raising you up to be more than what you can attribute to your own will. The more you trust in His will, the more you can feel his power in your life.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ A self-fulfilling prophecy and a very large case of Confirmation Bias.
It's a shame, you seem rather intelligent otherwise.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Of course, I was like that once, too: taking certain beliefs and placing them in a mental box, where no rational inquiry could find them.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Im sure you have considered that if your right, no harm no foul (except the trail and errors in this life as you try to figure it out on your own).
But if Im right, what will happen to you?
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ If you're right (which, as the odds go, is astronomically thin), then your God is a tyrant and a bully and I wouldn't worship him (cont.)
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ even if I knew for a fact he did exist.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic why do you say that?
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ If your god does exist, he created the universe with foreknowledge of the events that would take place within it. Since, according to the dogma of your religion,
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ nothing happens that is not a part of God's plan or goes against his will, if I die without believe in God, he created me knowing that I would die and be damned.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic And?? That upsets you?Although that may be true, its not his will for us. Thats blaming God for Damnation, when we have actually chosen it for our selves. He creates us and knows what our will for ourselves will be.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ We can't choose anything in a Universe with a being with power and knowledge like God! He created us knowing how each person would act!
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Every person who has gone screaming into this supposed abyss has done so with full foreknowledge from this God, AND HE HAS DONE NOTHING!
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic He is the epitome of love. He has prompted you to see Him at every turn, even now.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ You can claim this, but the character of the god presented in the Bible does not match this claim.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ He has not come to this world in a way that cannot be denied, he has not spoken to us in a way that is freely available to all! He chooses to reveal himself to a
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Life itself cannot be denied and there is nothing brought into existence without a cause. This is my study on the watchmaker argument.
Biblically he has revealed himself through His word (the scriptures), and also by special revelation the holy spirit who lives within us.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ >nothing comes into existence without a cause
Except virtual particles.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ And if you asked a Muslim, he would say that Allah has revealed his will through the Quran and his prophet Muhammad. Ask a Jew and he'll say there is no prophet yet.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ The claims of the Bible are no more or less credible on their own than any of a thousand claims from a thousand religions.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ bunch of desert-dwelling savages, not once but many times, with this supposedly important message! WHY!? When my fate hangs in the balance, when it is my eternal
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Not really sure who your referring to as desert-dwelling savages here, as I think hes revealed himself to a few groups with this description... Another good movie is End of the Spear. True story about missionaries who get murdered by the tribe they are trying to connect with.
looks like some cord was stuck here as you really start to go off...
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ soul that is supposedly at risk, he chooses this circuitous and back-asswards way of doing things rather than just reveal himself to all of humanity?
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Jesus was sent to save all of humanity, I think that counts here.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ So God sent himself who is also his own son to save us from a punishment he made by sacrificing himself to himself? How the hell does that count?
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Why not get rid of the punishment? Or forgive us without a sacrifice? This again begs the question of why God requires a blood sacrifice for sin in the first place.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ I did not choose to be born in this century, when the supposed miracles of God have been reduced to his son's face on a flapjack. I did not choose to be born in a time
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ when rational thought and scientific thinking can pole holes in his logic that you can drive a truck through. If he exists, if he is who the Bible purports him to be,
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ I am here because he put me here. He knows my heart- he made it!- and yet he does NOTHING that he knows will prove his existence to me!
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Then there is the concept of hell itself: infinite punishment for finite crimes is not justice, it is abhorrent and cruel.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic All sins are forgivable. Have you ever had a friend or loved one steal from you, and your anger was more so that they never confessed or apologized more so than of the fact they stole from you. I have a brother like this. He would steel from me every time he came over! I would be angry for a while and not allow him over. Then I would think, surely hes sorry, or surely hes matured, or surely he knows he going to seriously damage our relationship if he continues
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ This still doesn't answer the question of why a blood sacrifice is necessary for sin. If sin is forgivable, why this whole circuitous sacrifice bollocks?
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Ok, we are free agents of our hearts, minds, and actions. God has no sin in him and cannot have sin in his kingdom. When we die we will be without a physical body and most sin (sins of the flesh) we wont be able to do even if we wanted to. So dont think hell will be a physical place either. This is a place where only your soul can go. The essence of who you are.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Do you not think your sins here on earth affect or shape who you are, on a spiritual level? When asked of Jesus what is the greatest commandment, he answered Love.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ I will always agree that crime entails punishment; again, my problems are manifold. God takes his authority without my consent, and punishes disproportionately.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Infinite punishment for finite crimes is not and shall never be a just punishment. No human crime can be punished in such a way and be justified.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic watch this music video
watch /NcOxzGC7rm0
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Punishing human crimes with eternal torment is like killing a man for jaywalking.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Nothing any human could do could ever deserve eternal punishment.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic What bothered me most was that he never apologized. He always denied it. Now I have to shut the doors to all the rooms when he comes over and watch him like a hawk! I still love him, Id help him out if he needed help. But he just took advantage of me, I can never have him stay here. How can we be allowed to stay in Gods kingdom if he cannot trust us? Repentance is all he asks for. And Repentance can only come when we bring ourselves to Christ's death.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Why does God require a blood sacrifice?
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Blood=life, thats pretty basic. After blood, there is nothing left to give.
In the old testament, a blood sacrifice atoned for sin (covered sin), but Jesus sacrifice washes sin away. And blood sacrifice is no longer needed. He paid the price in full for your sin.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ This still does not answer the question of WHY God requires a blood sacrifice to forgive sin. Why does something have to die in order for something else to be forgiven?
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Then there are the many horrible actions in the Bible, such as God ordering Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, 'tricking' King Jephthah into sacrificing his daughter...
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic I have not read about Jephthah, but Abraham and his son... Basically a test. Do you not think Issac could have not found off his old man? He would have willingly died there...
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ What right does God have to tell someone to sacrifice their own son? And why is it considered a virtue that Abraham just up and says "Duuuuuuuuh, okay!"
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Ummm he's God, he has the authority. Whats confusing is that if he is all loving, why would he do such a thing? Because he has a bigger picture. He knew Abraham would do it, but needed Abraham to know himself that he would do it. At that point God says Phyic! Use the lamb... Basically everything in the old testament can be an analogy to Christ. Christ was Gods son sacrificed.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Saying that He's God, Therefore He has the authority is not good logic. Power does not equal authority.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Well hes sorta the source of all life. He gives and takes away... Is there some specific characteristic your looking for to define the authoritative status? Cuz Im guessing he has it.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ As an American, I firmly believe that authority is, and only should be, derived from the consent of the governed. God as he is presented to me in the Bible not only disrespects consent (hardening Pharoah's heart, sending delusions to fool false prophets, etc), he seems to thrive on the 'Might Makes Right'/'I brought you into this world, I can take you out' mentality.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Now, you can probably try to get out of that by saying that God has offered us a choice, etc. But has he really?
I choose right now not to go to Hell. The ball is now in God's court. He can respect my decision and my rights as a human being, or he can assert his power (not his authority) and banish me to hell after I die. So even if I do not accept God/Jesus as my Lord and Savior, he still gets to exercise his power over me.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic a) you assume what rights you have as a human being.
b) Imagine this attitude in Judge Judy's court room. He is the authority. Did you consent to be governed by your parents when you were young?
Authority-the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
Would he have a motive to misjudge you?
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ I assume them because they are the rights I want, so they are also the rights I give to others. It is a reciprocal idea.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
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@TheGeneralCritic Let me repeat:
You have no recognition that your life is a gift. No accountability, no responsibility. Except to and for what you wish or what is demanded of you. You make your own rules. Thats what this world does. When people, authorities, governments, ext.. dont have a higher power to be accountable to, they make their own rules. Thats when might makes right.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Authority in philosophy: refers to a claim of legitimacy, the justification and right to exercise that power.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ So far as I can see, the only claim of legitimate authority God has on his side is, all together now, 'I brought you into this world, so I can take you out'.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ That excuse didn't work with my parents, and it definitely doesn't work with God. Once again, power =! authority.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Your parent had authority over you, now if you choose not to respect that authority, You can refuse to accept it over you. Why would you be let into heaven at that point? Hes not going to drag you in there. Nobody who doesnt want to be there is going to be forced to go, and as much as your grandmas wants to sneek you in, youve basically gotta want to be there, which in turn means accepting his authority.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ But if I reject the authority of my parents, they won't drag me into their torture basement to pull out my toe nails.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Your parents had the right and capability to hold you accountable and punish you when appropriate. Now parents are human and dont exercise their authority correctly always. Either too stern or excessive or too leanest.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ But God can be an imaginary combination of Judge Dredd and Robocop who can mete out perfect justice all the time and I've heard this one before. :V
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ But again, God does not have the right to punish disproportionate to the crimes committed, or to punish without consent.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Says you. His judge will be appropriate, why do you think it wont? Your analogy of killing a Jaywalker isnt quite accurate. Our hearts condition can be good or evil, two choices.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Because, as I have said a million times, eternal punishment for finite crimes cannot be just.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic So If you kill someone, life in prison wouldnt be appropriate?
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ A human life =! eternity. A human life is roughly 80-90 years. That is not infinite.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Yeah, but to you, you dont believe in eternity. life is as long as you get.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ This is one of the many reasons I see him as a tyrant and a bully. I could be just as 'good' as a believer, even better, and devote my life to the betterment of my fellow man and simply for being a disbeliever I will be banished to eternal torment without my consent. That is not authority, that is power and nothing else.
As the video I linked you to stated, God is not good, he is only strong.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic But your hood works are not proof of love. People do good so they look good, for money, it makes them feel good... Our love for him and/or His love in us cause us to love others so good works is a 'fruit of the spirit', but love is what were aiming for not good works.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ I have run into this problem many times, and I have to say this: good works are all I have to go on. I cannot know what is truly in other people's hearts.
My mother loves me. But if one day she decided my atheism was too much to handle and she couldn't see me anymore, I'd have to redefine that relationship to compensate for new data, coming to the conclusion that my mother didn't love me anymore.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ But if she never told me that and continued to do good things for me and love me, I am perfectly justified in believing she loves me even though deep down she might resent and loathe me for who I am. I can only know the side of people they wish to present to me.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic Ok, this is where we can say she cant fool God, he knows her heart. If she is just putting on a show, why is that? Only God can be her judge. And I believe whatever he decides wont be a surprise to her.
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Again, he is judging without her consent and meting out punishment that does not fit the crime.
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago
@TheGeneralCritic so we need consent to be judged? Id like to hear that one on Judge Judy! Ha
Finally4Christ 1 week ago
@Finally4Christ Actually, we do, and the response in Judge Judy to someone saying 'I do not consent to your judgement' would be
TheGeneralCritic 1 week ago