Joseph Smith Vindicated: PART II

[cobbweb]

Thanks you can further explain how these are different from the breathings text? Im confused.

[funnrun]

The Doctrine and Covenants/Section 132

63

But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds,

[FC275]

Joe Smith vindicated? exactly how?

he obviously didn't know Egyptian, "reformed" or otherwise

there is no way that his Egyptian alphabet & grammar would stand close scrutiny by Egyptologists or grammarians

you can check that out on the internet, then see Champollion's work or go to your local library & check out a book on Egyptian heroglyphics

regrettably, something that Joe Smith did not have access to

[GodLovedJosephSmith]

Dr. Hugh Nibley commenting on our research (Nov 7, 2003), "...After this, those who challenge the Book of Mormon will have some heavy explaining to do." jefflindsay . com fairlds . org All the new evidence pointing to geography and physical evidence found since 2003 makes the Smithsonian Institutes Statement of 1996 about obsolete. GLJS There are many great videos. Some under my favorites made by Channels: SethAdamSmith LDS999 Mormon101 fairldsorg check it out & God Bless

[AarmOZ]

Very good theory... I love your drawings to clarify it so that it has visual representations. My only issue with the Book of Abraham is why the hyrogliphs on the Kolob (facsimile 2), or head warmer, don't translate in any way with the translations presented by Joseph Smith?

[HiveRadical]

Google an article titled Research on Hypocephali

It's a paragraph on the Maxwell Institute's website that explains that modern Egyptologists are not properly reading the Hypocephali when contrasted with actual ancient views of such. Facsimile 2 is considered to be a type of Hypocephali-papyrus that was often placed behind the head of those being interred in ancient Egypt.

[bravovegas]

ha ha ha ur justification for what u thought of the pics with boa is so grossly stretched, imangined, and far fetched! OMG u have bno idea how egyptian hyraglphs work do u? U r so far off base not because i say so but because ur theories have no evidence. ur faith will have to stay just that, while truth lingers on, lol wow is all i can say. very good imagination. of course u realise ur byu scholars are laughing at u!

[HiveRadical]

The theories I present are hardly the only ones there are with regard to plausible explanations that would maintain the truthfulness of the Book of Abraham claims.

I'd also like to see you explain how it is 'hyraglphs' work seeing as you can't even spell the word correctly.

[HiveRadical]

Please go through and try and systematically destroy what I've presented. If it's as easy as your bravado, mr. bravadovagueness, would claim then it should be a simple matter to show my errors beyond merely throwing in a few abstract descriptors and claiming I don't know how 'hyralphs' work.

[HiveRadical]

Perchance the funniest thing of your response is the intimation that one would need to know how hieroglyphs work to determine the plausibility of the scenario I present.

[bravovegas]

"hieroglphs!" Sorry but responding to ur retarded video rebuttals and ur vague responses i was drinking and ur logic cracks me up, simply becuase u have very little! In response to ur inability to understand HIEROGLPHS ur theory in part 2 lacks merit. Hieroglphs never constructed and reconstructed as ur wild imagination would like to believe!

[HiveRadical]

Please tell me where you think I have closed comments. I believe you are taking some issue with YouTube, or your browser or cookies and thinking that I'm banning you or closing off comments or something. I'm doing no such thing. If I was why would I keep allowing you to post?

[storia22]

You had closed three of your videos to comments. It is clear you choose who, when and how. Sorry a discussion with you is not just or fair. Best of luck in your dealings. I refuse to deal with some like you. Say what you want you will always be unchristlike! I do, in any case, always wish you the best.

Even though, you have never directed good wishes or friendship to me or anyone who is non affiliated with the Mormon church.

I would like to be your freind (even if you hate me).

[HiveRadical]

I HAVE NOT! There's not a SINGLE video that I've permitted to have comments, has had comments, and then I've stopped from having comments.

YOU ARE PROJECTING TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES TO IMPUGN MY CHARACTER!

[storia22]

Hive grow some intellect, it may help on your way to discovery. OR has GOD revealed everything to you?

[storia22]

HE will claim to be hones like JS to have over 32 proven wife and still be Biblical....whooo how honest is that to Emmmma

[HiveRadical]

You talk of logic. Tell me --Is it logical to defend someone you openly admit is a fraud to paint someone else as a fraud whom you presumably are against merely because you either perceive, or wish to portray, him as such?

[storia22]

Oh by the way little HIVE here is so dishonest that he disables the response possiblilties in his videos. HOW HONEST IS THAT FOR A MORMON?

[HiveRadical]

There's only a single video I've disabled the responses in, the rest of them are open and free and I've never closed them after making videos public.

Again I think you are displaying a great deal of fanaticism that is rather unbecoming your claims to superior reason and logic.

[storia22]

I am not claiming superior logic and reason (only that YOU USE A LITTLE). Though maybe you cannot.

Your faith cannot permit it?

[HiveRadical]

My faith cannot permit me to "USE A LITTLE" rather it demands that I use all I have.

[storia22]

Than you will go to hell! Look at your writing to me (not at all Christ like). You better hope for GRACE.

[HiveRadical]

You believe in Hell? Grace?

[storia22]

i think I am still not sure. I wish I could see god like you.

[storia22]

- Furthermore, at the time of the translation, he did not claim a doctorate. He learned the ancient language from his stay in Egypt (of all things) from under Zakaria Goneim (keeper of the antiquities at the Necropolis of Saqqara).

[storia22]

- Fact being that his knowledge (though lacking the degree -- most Mormons will use this to discredit him -- even though most Mormons don't have a doctorate in Mormonism they still think they are credible) in Egyptology was credible, his credible translation (proving the BoA to be false) created problems for the Church and Nibley.

[HiveRadical]

Certainly he was an intelligent man.

I find it interesting, however, that you come back, after deleting your last account in mere minutes after responding to me last to defend a man who is CLEARLY a fraud all in the name of attempting to paint someone else as a fraud.

If you don't like frauds then you are choosing a peculiar path in fighting those you perceive to be frauds.

[storia22]

Without superior intellect (most mormons are at odds with intellect), I do see JS as a fraud.

I defy you to answer the charges:

JS as an adulterer

JS committing bank fraud

JS as a traitor to the Unites States

JS as a Murderer

JS as drinking ALCOHOL

JS as being into Black Magic

And if you want an additional listing (just ask).

DEFY!

[HiveRadical]

Adultery is sex unsanctioned by God, JS was sanctioned.

One of JS key accusers of fraud was the one who was cooking the books, he was the one that was sabotaging the bank with the hopes of making himself rich and doing it behind JS's back.

[HiveRadical]

JS never committed treason. Unless you have a whacked unconstitutional definition of such

JS only fired his weapon because he'd vowed to defend his friends even to blood shed.

The Word of Wisdom was not a commandment. Joseph had some wine.

JS held the priesthood, he never practiced 'magic'

[storia22]

Please be truthful. I have not read history in vain (these things exist and if taken in context - they must be at least looked at with a "OPEN" mind).  I am not a stupid person (even though I have grown up with a lot of people who don't care for each other in Mormon culture).

[HiveRadical]

I am being truthful. It's impossible for anyone to prove, on their own, their intentions. But I AM being truthful. I'm also being open minded. What's not reasonable is to fire off a litany of overly simplified accusations and expect some long drawn out and nuanced response ESPECIALLY when all those issues I've addressed previously in other situations, most of them in this forum (YouTube--many on my channel)

[storia22]

- Nibley endorsed Nelson's work in a letter dated October 1, 1968 by saying "admirable work." Additionally, Nibley claimed that Nelson's study was "a conscientious and courageous piece of work....a usable and reliable translation of the available papyri" (BYU Studies, Spring 1968, Pg 247).

[storia22]

For the FACTUAL RECORD, here is the truth about DEE JAY NELSON:

- He did purchase his diploma from a degree mill (like you purchased your knowledge from a brain washing institution). This fact does not take away the sure knowledge the Nelson whew substantially more than Nibley knew about Egyptology.

[HiveRadical]

That is not the determination of an Egyptologist. Again Baer mentions that Nelson's grasp was not one sufficient for the criticism he gave of Nibley's work.

[storia22]

Nibley was not an Egyptologist; therefore, not an expert. He should have been silent!!!

[HiveRadical]

For the record, the man he was citing as 'helping Nibley' translate the Papyri was Dee Jay Nelson. The man faked his credentials through a degree Mill that was shut down. He touted himself as the "World's Leading Authority on Egyptology." Google his name for more revelations as to his fraud.

[storia22]

- Another fact is that another Mormon scholar (John Tvedtnes) was very impressed with Nelson's knowledge by saying "has no doctorate, "although he maintained that his "competence in both Egyptian and Semitic languages is unquestioned." -- letter dated (Ibid., pg 70)

[HiveRadical]

A man can certainly be a very bright and capable person and still be a terrible fraud. Seeing as perceptions are forever affected by the relative degree of knowledge and proficiency we have compared to everyone else a very intelligent and capable person can quite often conflagrate the appearance of their real capacity.

Nelson was placed, by a Baer an accredited life long Egyptologist who is not LDS, as not one to criticize Nibley on Egyptian interpretation.

[storia22]

Nibley is nothing but a child molesting illogical idiot that could not translate the Book of Abraham!

[storia22]

LIKE JOSEPH SMITH........"Still be a terrible fraud"?

[HiveRadical]

As of 11:39pm present Utah time his account is closed.

Take care Storia21. Really do take care. Good people care about you.

[storia22]

REALLY, you are a little full of it (as with your stupid false insincerity). Like most Mormons, they want to baptize or reactivate someone, (only to leave them in the dust after). Stop being deceitful!!!

[HiveRadical]

The double negatives are both funny and demonstrate your tendency to throw reason and a level head to the wind.

I'm curious, was that something you did when you were a member? Did you leave people in the dust? Is that why you presume others do it?

[HiveRadical]

This reminds me of a man who had committed to baptism while I was on my mission. Later, out of nowhere, he came out and accused my companion of the vilest intentions with his wife and used that as an excuse to call off his baptism. We discovered later that he'd been having an affair with his secretary, an affair that had it's start a little before he accused my companion of the vilest of intentions simply because we'd stopped by to help him prepare for his baptism.

[HiveRadical]

WOW! He closed his account in within the last ten minutes!

[Storia21]

Hey in the end HIVE, I must say you are stubborn, smart and a little miss guided (but probably a good guy). Good points but not utterly convincing.

Thanks for the discussion.

[HiveRadical]

Thank you.

I'd recommend knowing your sources better.

[storia22]

HIVE on my hinny, you are as ungracious as your religion and your knowledge. That gesture above was meant to close the conversation on a peaceful nature. Seeing that you are an arrogant non informed scheisster, I detract the above and would like to emphasize that your sources as good as your stupid little belief in the Moronic Church and in the BoA .

[HiveRadical]

So if I'd said you were "stubborn" and "miss guided" that would have been more peaceful than recommending you know your sources better? So you can say that I don't have a clue but I point out something demonstrably wrong with your modus operandi and I'm the one not being peaceful? I'll let any and all look at your present incarnation and your posts and demeanor and decide for themselves who is and isn't genuine in their words.

[storia22]

Let the words stand....my prior ending was much kinder. If you are like JS, you will remit a rebuttal. Fight fight fight.

[storia22]

Additionally, your arrogant arguments are weak an ill prepared (taken straight from Lindsay's stupid website for incompetents that need a BIG mental band aid to still believe in Moronicism. In person, you are an ugly clumsy presenter (not genuine at all or not EVEN CHRIST LIKE -- NOT EVEN -- STOP PRETENDING!).

[HiveRadical]

I suppose then that your "well thought out" arguments are precisely why you, after seeing my points" quickly ended the discussion then quickly proceeded to delete your YouTube account. Because that's the logical thing to do when you feel you've left an argument in a position of strength, up and leave

[storia22]

That is why you CLOSE COMMENTS SO SOON, little intellect. I want to talk to you after another 10 years. I think you will not be a Mormon at that time (if you are truely seeking truth).

Think about it.

Travel a little ...that will help. Get out of UTAH.

[storia22]

Not really, because like the Nazies (Mormonism is much like a mind control cult), you cannot see the difference between your single mind and the collective.

Until you really step out of the CULT, (poor thing) you will not be able to function as a real human being.

I really do feel some pain for you.

Though, I cannot trust someone with such hate as you have for me.

[HiveRadical]

I don't hate you.

It does seem that whatever pride you'd tried to swallow in your last YouTube account has been ejected.

The sad thing is how much of it's based off of your presumptions. You think I'm stopping you from commenting. You think I hate you because I answer your attacks.

[HiveRadical]

and delete what you can from the forum. And then to further demonstrate it you come back on almost a week later in a rage and start posting and defaming and otherwise make yourself look less than rational or level headed.

[HiveRadical]

You are one of the last people to talk of being genuine. And the "not EVEN CHRIST LIKE" is a laughable assertion coming from someone who demonstrably cannot believe in Christ's divinity.

[storia22]

You are so much more HUMBLE than me?

[HiveRadical]

I sure hope so.

[HiveRadical]

Presumption like a Devil yelling out "That's not Christian" as Christ himself casts him into the heard of swine. Or to have the money changers yell out 'that's not Christ like!' as they are driven out of the temple by a man with a whip he made himself.

You know very little of genuineness or what is and isn't Christ like.

[storia22]

But you don't believe in the BIBLE (not translated correctly). Sorry you cannot use the Bible.

You don't believe in CHRIST (only the, "we can become like god" CHRIST). Not the same Christ of that came to save all through "Grace."

Though, your pride would not allow you to understand.

[HiveRadical]

"Joint-heirs with Christ"

"That they may be one even as we are one"

"to the fullness of the stature of Christ"

[HiveRadical]

"Though, your pride would not allow you to understand."

But your pride never impedes your understanding.

[HiveRadical]

Your profile at present:

Storia21

Joined: November 13, 2007

Last Login: 59 seconds ago

Videos Watched: 4

Subscribers: 0

Channel Views: 1

Age: 33

Country: United States

[HiveRadical]

and you can't deny it. I've got it recorded.

[Storia21]

I am not denying anything (what is your illogical point). I never put my identity or try to avoid identify theft or is that not a legitimate concern? What type of drug are you on? Now you are down to stupid little points like this?

[HiveRadical]

You mean we're not to take something on your channel, made by you, about you, as truth? But we're suppose to accept the claimed words of Joseph Smith from a single (referencing here the Kinderhook issue) third person (or worse) account as to what he said or did?

[Storia21]

You really do not read the whole text. I had three references (HOTC, TNS, and a personal letter).

[HiveRadical]

And which of them was conclusively written by Joseph Smith?

[HiveRadical]

"35+ years as a studying Mormon"

If your profile is true then you're trying to pass those first ten or fifteen years of your life off almost as though they were akin to the study one does as an adult, then there's the issue with you studying into your pre-existance, either that or you'll have to claim to have lived the most real 'double life' imaginable OR you could just say that your YouTube profile is false on the "age" section.

[storia22]

Why can't I do it? You seem to draw illogical arguments about ancient symbols in an effort to prove the BoA. You are as dishonest in your efforts as well!!!! I DEFY you to show me the actual papyrus of the Book of Abraham!!!!

[HiveRadical]

I mention that seeing as you already have the German down, Egyptology's modern foundations are centered around those two languages.

[HiveRadical]

Try learning French too, then you can read many of the sources that Nibley references in his studies on the Book of Abraham.

[Storia21]

Man you are really out on the west edge of reality. Nibley as a competent source. He wasn't an expert of Egyptology. If fact, the fellow that worked with Nibley to translate the texts happened to leave the Mormon Church over his opinion on the reality and truthfulness of the BoA.

[HiveRadical]

And if we could dismiss the merits or arguments of anti-Mormons by their associations to the doings or failings of other anti-Mormons we'd have quite the story.

I'd recommend you give more names, more raw data, if you are certain you are correct the actual names of people or direct links to works helps to demonstrate it. Avoiding such makes you appear to just cast non-tenable dispersions.

[Storia21]

Again, check out Sunstone 1993 Dr. Thompson.

[HiveRadical]

If you will check out the following I'll look even deeper into Dr. Thompson's claims

"Questions About the Book of Abraham, Part 2:

Evidences for Plausibility"

As I've found so far Thompson has issues with his own historical bonafides.

see "A Look into David Persuitte's Analysis of the Book of Abraham" for an elaboration on such.

[storia22]

Plausibility is not even a discussion here. I am only interested in REASONABLE (scientific), KNOWLEDGE BASED, LOGICAL, and STRAIGHT FORWARD IDEAS as to the existence to the Book of Abraham. Plausibility is for those who have a struggle believe the Egyptologists because what they say would destroy their little testimony. Once you are honest, YOU HAVE MUST ACCEPT THE GENERAL IDEA THAT THE BOA WAS CREATED BY JS.

[storia22]

By the way, I did read Jeff's blundering attempt to link everything and anything to attempt to revive the BoA. A JOKE! Bring stronger ideas with clarity and grounded in reality (real correlations not stupid links that make NO SENSE in a funerary text realm).

[storia22]

If you argue past this point (which you will -- like a good little mindless neon-Mormon), you display that you have been brainwashed by the cult and your incapacity to really THINK for yourself.

[storia22]

For example, referring to Abraham in other concurrent texts of the period, does NOT (I repeat NOT) prove or even challenge the fact that the Papyrus that JS's mother purchased were funerary texts and as a matter of fact had NOTHING do with Jewish patriarchs! Whether the writers of the funerary text knew of Abraham or not is irrelevant.

[Storia21]

The Gentlemen that left the Church due to the BoA was Mormon at the time. Therefore, he cannot be called an anti-Mormon. In this case, you are anti-Christian because you don't agree with Christianity.

[HiveRadical]

Care to share the name of the individual? Wouldn't be some phoney Egyptologist would it? Come on! Tell us his name! Let us see his bona fides! If he's such a clear example of truth then tell us his name!!!

And do you agree with Christianity? If you do then you have some issues with internal consistency.

[storia22]

facsimiles were in a funerary text and not taken from another text and interjected into the funerary text (in lighter terms, they Abraham's vision of the final judgment has nothing at all to do had to do with a funerary text that shows a final judgment with Osirus

[storia22]

Osirus (Osirus being a pagan god not the GOD of Israel). Just a reminder, the GOD of Israel commanded that "Thou shalt not have any other GODS before me" and contentiously cursed Israel due to their following false gods. EVEN LINDSAY admits that these facts are not conclusively.

[Storia21]

In addition, the planned plot to decieve JS (which it clearly did) was successful. See the many quotes surrounding it happening.

But again this is a waist and I am stupid to even write anther response because people like are true suckers for man made religions like this.

[HiveRadical]

Again, there's nothing that is historically tenable that ties Joseph to an assertion or attempt by him to be able to, or actually try, to translate the Kinderhook plates. I defy you to show otherwise.

A man who can't support his claims can call me a sucker whenever he so wishes.

[Storia21]

You of course did not mention that Clayton was JS's personal scribe (not being very honest are we?).

[HiveRadical]

That's irrelevant seeing as we don't know where that segment originated from. Hearsay was commonly presented as a second or even first person relation when many times it was hearsay.

[Storia21]

Hearsay from a man who was a personal scribe for JS is better than most any other source. If you refute this, then you will refute any and everything referenced if it goes against your ideas or beliefs. As you have accepted fantasies by accepting the BoA.

[HiveRadical]

It's still hearsay. Do you believe I must accept the accounts of Quakers on the moon just because a church publication published it?

Are you aligned with any religious belief at present? Do you believe in God in anyway beyond 'Einstein's way'?

[storia22]

You accepted JS on your faith which is better?

[Storia21]

That still does not explain certifications or the letter (which you of course will deny). Third party cannot trust type of approach.

Of course, you most likely will deny that the BOM theory is the small region theory (not correct terminalogy).

[HiveRadical]

Give us the letter and the people certifying it. Direct all to it if this is such an obvious point in your favor!

[Storia21]

I have given you data and references and you still want textual proof.

[HiveRadical]

Because the references do not match your claims nor demonstrate your points. I want you to point out where and why they do, because I don't see it.

[Storia21]

Again, certification in the Times and Seasons (see previous reference - if not able good luck) and the letter was not in LSD hands (otherwise the would have changed it as they have done with the D&C, BoM and other so called scripture).

[HiveRadical]

"...other sources, collected during Joseph Smith's lifetime and continued after the Saints were in Utah, then edited and pieced together to form a history of the Prophet's life 'in his own words.'" Kimball notes that this poor practice was common in that century for biographers."

from Jeff Lindsay's site

[storia22]

In this case, you will not accept anything as a credible source (only your stupid resources from Lindsay -- who is another metal gymnast -- trying to prove something with nothing -- delusional logic).When you give references, you will need to reference the book and state whether it is a credible source; otherwise, we must assume it is not bound to reality or logic and must be coming from a faith or self imposed casual pertinence.

[HiveRadical]

Your view of how we should take it is no MORE logical than those presented in Lindsay's article. What are we suppose to do, accept everything from back then at it's word? Only accept those sources that make your points or can be used by you to insinuate your predetermined view? Is the statement erroneous? Is it wrong to say that there were lax practices as to attribution and integrity in sources?

[storia22]

Your approach is only by FAITH, no logic involved. You are mindless!

[storia22]

- FINALLY , try believing in real professionals with PhDs that have translated the record and WITH AN AGGREGATE opinion that it has nothing to do with the BOA (no need to reference due to the volume). You would rather point to five or more stupid little religious consistencies (spread out over 5,000 years) than believe professional. If you went to a doctor and he said you had cancer, would you believe him or go to the bishop and ask what do DO?

[HiveRadical]

"...serialized "History of Joseph Smith" printed in the Deseret News in Utah in 1856, long after the death of Joseph, though it was changed to be in the first person from Joseph's perspective: "I have translated..." instead of "President J. has translated...." It is well known, according to Kimball, "that the serialized 'History of Joseph Smith' consists largely of items from other persons' personal journals and..."

[HiveRadical]

"Critics point to an entry apparently made by Joseph Smith in the official History of the Church dated May 1843, which states that Joseph translated part of the Kinderhook plates and found them to be written by a descendant of Ham and of the Pharaoh of Egypt. However, this statement is actually from the journal of William Clayton. Clayton's journal entry was added to the..."

[Storia21]

Current culture at that time displayed heavy Hellenic influence (much less that in the time of Abraham). Furthermore, Hebraic texts or stories were not favored by Egyptians and would not have been found together with Funerary texts.

-Finally, your self induced fantasies will never equate to reality or real historic context.

Therefore, I think you are right (in your dreams) and I will let you believe your little out of context fantasy.

God bless

[HiveRadical]

Look at my vid titled

"Abraham Referenced in Egyptian Papyrus w/ties 2 facsimilie 1"

In it it directly refutes your idea of a disconnect AND ties the Lion Bed motif with a reference to Abraham IN NAME. Howz that for there not being sufficient 'Hebraic' influence in texts that date to around the 4th century AD?

[Storia21]

See the Sunstone Symposium on this very subject in 1993 Mr. Stephen Thomas (a member of the Church and who has a PhD in Egyptology) has critically broken up and addressed your agreements on this symposium. If you have any reason you really should check him out.  He has a much higher understanding than you do on this subject. He basically says that JS has no competent understanding of ancient Egyptian iconography.

[HiveRadical]

Joseph himself did not need to be competent in understanding ancient Egyptian iconography. In fact it's rather clear that attempts by him to learn such after his translating of the Book of Abraham didn't fair too well, but he never had to learn, or become competent, to translate texts for God, that wasn't based on intellectual prowess or competence, it was based on revelation.

[Storia21]

Here is where you leave reality and go into a World without thought and logic.

[HiveRadical]

Not without thought and logic, just a world where it's admitted that human perceptions, human thought and logic, are forever doomed to being tainted with some degree of subjective thought. And it doesn't take much of the subjective to render a whole world view incorrect.

[Storia21]

You never reference any studies as well.

[HiveRadical]

Whenever it's relevant I do. I give the names of people, original documents, websites, historical documents.

I will commit to share the source of anything I cite, if I haven't already, if you will you do the same.

[Storia21]

- Zelph is quoted in multiple journals and it is not a rumor.

-By the way Egypt during or around 100BC had been controlled by a Hellenic culture for over 200 years (after the Alexander the Great). So, literally the culture had taken a strong step away from ancient Egyptian culture.

[HiveRadical]

-I never said Zelph was a rumor. I asked you to prove that what Joseph said about it to be false. You can't.

-And we all "know" that the Normans invaded France, which is why their descendants all speak...French? In many respects American culture has massive ties to ancient Babylonian culture.

[Storia21]

Man, you have it all wrong. The Normans did not invade France. They were invited to live there by the King of France to protect France from the Vikings (Norsemen). The Normans did invite England though.

Again, learn History correctly and then you will have a correct understanding of its happenings.

[HiveRadical]

Are all invasions through violence and force of arms?

[Storia21]

No, this was an INVITATION.

[HiveRadical]

Sharmast. Shoma na hoosh nadahry.

[Storia21]

- Further evidence is of an archeological nature: being that brass plate production 7technology did not exist in North America (AD 700). Research metallurgy and you will find out some interesting things.

[HiveRadical]

I'd dare say I've a deeper background in metallurgy than yourself. I recommend you do the deeper research, because it's lacking on your end more than mine in terms of metallurgy.

[Storia21]

- One of the certifiers in the times and seasons later testified in a letter (W. Fugate) the following: "I received your letter in regard to these plates, and will say in answer that they are HUMBUG. ....none of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret, except Wiley and I." Later in the letter, Mr. Fugate depicts the plans to deceive JS by making the plates.

[Storia21]

Kinderhook:

- History of the Church, vol 5, page 372, JS said, "I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found."

- Times and Seasons, Vol 4, pg. 166, "We the citizens of Kinderhook. certify and declare that...while excavating a large mound, in this vicinity, Mr. R. Wiley took from said mound, six brass plates of a bell shape, covered with ancient characters

[Storia21]

Aber ich glaube dass du hast kein Intelligenz hast.

[Storia21]

ee yes, maybe I am the illogical one -- at least, I wont' waist my life serving a Cult and fighting with people about things that are so illogical or so unreasonable (like trying to prove that the Lord of the Rings is the most correct book from GOD).

Oh and by the way that was Italian not Spanish.

Aber ich glaube dass du hast kein Intelligenz oder immagination.

[HiveRadical]

If you see me as illogical then is this a statement that you are going to cease engaging with me in the interchange?

And I never said it was Spanish or wasn't Italian. And all of what I said wasn't all in Spanish. Bebacksheed for having confused your presumptuous mind.

[Storia21]

- Explain how the Facsimiles have nothing to do with the text surrounding them and how you can so illogically conclude that they have something to do with the surrounding text.

[HiveRadical]

Cleansing rituals. I have the translated text. It focuses on being 'justified' and resurrecting as a deified being in the next life. A DEIFIED RESURRECTED BEING. Now what faith teaches that 'Eternal Life' is to become a resurrected God? What religion teaches that Abraham is presently a resurrected God?

[HiveRadical]

What faith has this in their canon?

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."

[Storia21]

- Explain the KINDERHOOK PLATES?

- Zelph was made up to stop the complaints of Zion's camp (just like every revelation - like polygamy to stop Emma from complaining).

- Roman and Hellenic culture again have little to do with ancient Egypt (point being that a papyrus dealing with a funerary text).

[HiveRadical]

Demonstrate where Joseph Smith said what you claim he did. Give the verbatim quote. It doesn't exist.

-Prove Zelph was made up.

-except for the fact that significant elements of their culture have ancient Egyptian culture as one of it's core ancestors/and the fact that trade with Egypt, and thus contact, was more than just significant.

[Storia21]

ma leggi la storia cosi puoi capire qualcosa.

[HiveRadical]

Que bueno que has aprendido tantas idiomas. Estoy en processo de hacer lo mismo.

Hodafez!

[Storia21]

- JS has a historic track record of deceiving and making up stories (Zelph as a historic reference).

- The papyrus that JS translated came from 100BC (Roman Times -- not the times of Abraham).

- Egyptians during the Roman and Hellenic periods shared hardly anything with the ancient Egyptian dynasties.

Not enough? Maybe start telling the truth to yourself and not lying to yourself!!!!

[HiveRadical]

-Demonstrate conclusively that Zelph accounts are made up.

-"by his own hand" was something that would have been literally copied as the original was copied, just because your words "I wrote this with my own hand" are on a facsimile of your actual work doesn't make it an unfaithful projection of your writing.

- that last point is also irrelevant.

[storia22]

HIVE, the same weak argument can me used by myself to state that Clayton (JS's Scribe) wrote down JS words (and therefore any second hand source is good evidence). Furthermore, as you so graciously stated, this "doesn't make it an unfaithful projection of your writing" (quoted from HIVE above).

Hive, you pick and choose and pick and choose but never really learn something. Learning might mean that you would have to change your thoughts or ideas (oh no).

[Storia21]

Sorry HIVE on my hinny,

But, I know ancient history very well and Mormon history very well (35+ years as a studying Mormon). I have lived in Italy for 6 years and speak three languages.

FACTS:

- JS purchased Egyptian papyrus - made up a story -- see all experts Egyptologist who agree that JS did not know anything about translating the Egyptian language.

- JS claimed to be able to translate the Kinderhook plates -- which were produced to trick him.

[HiveRadical]

-the Egyptologists who think thusly are working off of false assumptions as to what Joseph said and did.

-You have no clear claims from Joseph on his capacity to translate the Kinderhook plates

(I'm defying you to disprove these points.)

[erlehatch]

Hive,

Your logic might work with a PC. With ancient text or papyrus, you would not have cutting and pasting.

It is non-sense to insist that an ancient Egyptian funerary text would be buried with any Hebraic text (since 2000 years span the events). Common sense and logic demands that the sane rational person would accept the fact that this has nothing to do with Abraham (especially since it has been translated by many professionals who say it has nothing to do with Abraham).

[HiveRadical]

You do not know history NOR the claims combined with the coming forth of the Book of Abraham. How much time did Abraham spend in Egypt? Do you imagine that Abraham would be utterly disconnected from the culture of Egypt?

You simply do not understand the claimed origins of the Book of Abraham NOR the historical context it claims to emerge from.

[HiveRadical]

Joseph Smith never canonized the Temple rites to my knowledge.

[slvjm1]

I don't know. I have not really ever read how and when the temple ceremonies revealed. While these rites were not performed in the Kirtland temple, they did have an endowment house in Navoo, before Josephs death I think.

[HiveRadical]

I hope you see my point. The fact that Joseph didn't canonize something in his life is irrelevant.

[slvjm1]

While you present an interesting idea, there is no evidence for it. It sounds like you are just trying to imagine a way for you to keep your faith without having to discard the book of abraham.

As far as I can tell, JS never claimed to have translated the BofA by the "gift and power of God". He published it as a serial in a newspaper and never cannonised it.

[HiveRadical]

I'm demonstrating plausibility and pointing out errors in critics claims. I'm not saying that this is how it was.

[saxmanmatt]

Be sure that you make this a video response too "Joseph Smith Vindicated: PART I" For quick linking access. Keep it up hive!

[HiveRadical]

Forgot about that. Thanks.