The Problem Of Fundamentalism/Part 1 of 2

[aerycksmusic]

I'd be interested to read your comments at Larry Hurtado's recent blog post to Word Press - his url is ( larryhurtado wordpress ) and the article is titled Scriptures and Canon.

[aerycksmusic]

Have you read 'The Text of the New Testament - It's Transmission, Corruption and Restoration' (4th Edition) or 'The Canon of the New Testament - It's Origin, Development and Significance' by Prof. Bruce Metger? Can you read or have you studied New Testament Greek, the Targums, Hebrew with particular emphasis on the Old Testament?

[aerycksmusic]

"Dear Doctor. I don't know what to do." "About what?" "My old fundamentalist friends keep telling me that if I don't return to church, I'm going to burn in the fires of hell" "Oh, that's easy" "How so?" "Ask them if they believe God can do miracles" "And?" "And if they say 'Yes', then tell them to give you a break and let God sort you out." "I did" "And?" "They sent the deacon, the elder and then the pastor" "And?" "I put a sign on the door nob 'Please do not disturb' " "Job Done"

[gmdinformation]

@aerycksmusic I don't know about that. If a deacon, an elder, and the pastor all come to your door at once you can bet it has something to do with the check you're about to write.

[gmdinformation]

@aerycksmusic I don't know about that. If a deacon, an elder, and the pastor all come to your door at once you can bet it has something to do with the check you're about to write.

[aerycksmusic]

@gmdinformation - The deacon got an audience and the elder read the sign but the pastor knocked the hardest cause he'd acquired a taste for new wine.

[aerycksmusic]

I'm a hot blooded South African male and love to dance, do you think it has something to do with America's denial of it's tribal roots? (racism)

[gmdinformation]

@aerycksmusic I'm descended from a Hungarian hermit and a Scotch-Irish nun. If I dance I'm pretty sure I automatically break into flames. Either that or it rains chickens.

[aerycksmusic]

@gmdinformation - Typical fun-damn-mentalists! LOL!!!!

[aerycksmusic]

Have you ever read RT France's book 'Jesus and the Old Testament'?

[gmdinformation]

@aerycksmusic I just tried to browse it at Google books, but they only give you some of the pages from the book. It unfortunately only shows one or two sentences from page 87 where he was starting to talk about Isaiah 9: 6-7, so I don't know if he was trying to equate that with Christ or not. From what I could tell of the rest of the book, he seems mainly interested in refuted Jewish beliefs that the Messiah is still to come, so I doubt that it'll be anything new for me, but I could be wrong.

[aerycksmusic]

@gmdinformation - I haven't even got that far and I've been at it for a few months. Dr RT France's work is extremely challenging and worth the time spent, for he loves the Son of God.

[ourgenerationisdumb]

This is good stuff. Have you read Reflections on the Psalms, by CS Lewis? You'd love it. He goes deep into old testament passages that seemed to have been alluding to Christ, or other things related to Christianity 

[gmdinformation]

@ourgenerationisdumb Sure I've read it. There's not much by Lewis I've missed. He's still my favorite writer. Thanks.

[ourgenerationisdumb]

@gmdinformation Yeah, I figured you had read it after I watched part two. He's my favorite writer as well. Fist bump.

Would you recommend his book on George MacDonald? I'm reading Lilith, and it's blowing my mind. Thought Lewis may have some great stuff to say.

[gmdinformation]

@ourgenerationisdumb Not really; his book is just a collection of MacDonald quotes of which he doesn't elaborate. I've got a commentary for Lilith and Phantastes that I can send you if you're interested, but it mostly focusses on the mystical side of his writing.

[ourgenerationisdumb]

@gmdinformation For sure! I'm all about the mystical side of things. Are you saying you wrote it? I can just find it on amazon if not. Thanks!

[gmdinformation]

@ourgenerationisdumb Well, yeah, it was a book I wrote that came out a few years ago. It was mostly just a commentary on Lilith and Phantastes. It really wasn't very good overall, but it covers most of the symbolism in the books okay and shows where it came from and how it afftected later writers. There are still some books floating around, but if you have an e-reader I can send you the mobi or epub version free.

[wolfpax22]

Fundamentalists... havin' a DANCE? *gasp* =o... they musta not been that fundamental, at least not the ones I knew, lol. :)

[gmdinformation]

@wolfpax22 Well this was one of those non-denominational, evangelical, mega churches, so it was kind of typical of them. It's not like it was a little Assembly of God or anything.

[theboombody]

I may not believe the Bible contains the complete thoughts of God, but I still believe it's without error. I am aware of contradictions in the Bible, but I don't consider contradictions automatically false. I think human logic is sometimes flawed.

[gmdinformation]

@theboombody "I still believe it's without error."

The King James says: II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."

Then it says: II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."

Obviously Michal can't both have children and be childless till death. It seems we can rule out the KJV as being without error, no? Other bibles got this right, but I know of none without errors.

[theboombody]

@gmdinformation I'm sure through far fetched ideas like parallel dimensions these discrepancies can be resolved.  Just not in a logical way.

[gmdinformation]

@theboombody But you know what happens? First we ignore obvious problems within the writing of the texts. Having done that, we then procede to ignore philosophical problems that arise in the texts. Then we move on to ignoring any problems that come when comparing the world history within the texts to the history written by surrounding nations. Finally, we'll ignore any science that disagrees with the historical accuracy in the texts. Soon, everything we say we believe about the bible is a lie.

[theboombody]

@gmdinformation I've ignored worse....

[theboombody]

I keep coming back to this video. Yeah, I don't see how anyone can consider the Bible or ANY book to contain God's complete thoughts. I consider myself a fundamentalist, and I don't believe that. Do most fundamentalists believe that?

[gmdinformation]

@theboombody What's meant is that the bible (don't ask me which one) in its entirety represents God's thoughts rather than the people people who wrote it according to many fundamentalists. Not that God doesn't have thoughts outside of it.

[bnbalenda]

Christianity is dogmatic and I agree with you about it, but most Christians have rejected the savagery of the bronze age and many Christians are embracing science and knowledge. There are still lots of Christian fundamentalists and I feel sorry for them because they deny reality and they want a theocracy. The most dogmatic religion right now is Islam because it's a religion, which is not compatiable with our democracy. In many Muslim countries, there are Human Right abuses against women.

[theboombody]

@bnbalenda Eh, what's the big deal if someone believes in creationism or evolution. Just accept one while you're in school, and the other while you're in church. A big part of my philosophy is that truth is more inconsistent than lies.

[theboombody]

You mention a church dance here. Were you a member of that church? Or are you currently a member of a church? My guess is the vast majority of churches in America would have a problem with your stance on fundamentalism. Perhaps enough even to throw you out of the building. Did you find a church that has similar beliefs to yours yet?

[gmdinformation]

@theboombody No one's going to throw you out of a church because you don't believe all the same goofy things they do. Not unless you teach classes or something where you push your position. But I've never had a membership card from a church anyway. I'm not much of a joiner. The Episcopal Church is the only one I know that doesn't have anything in their doctrine about inerrancy or infallability, but on the other hand, some of them are now allowing homosexual behavior--something I'm dead against.

[bnbalenda]

@gmdinformation You are right I have friends who are Christians and they invite in the church, even if I am an Atheist. I agree with your point of view on fundamentalistm and I also think it can destroy one's mind, if religion becomes a subject of idolatry.

[theboombody]

@bnbalenda I have a feeling this guy converts more atheists to Christianity than the fundamentalists he's talking about.

[greglee20]

@gmdinformation have you looked into the Eastern Orthodox Church ?

[gmdinformation]

@greglee20 Yeah; it's interesting, but I don't think I'd be fully comfortable there either.

[audiotrax2000]

Very interesting. Very well presented. I'm subscribing.

[jmrut1992]

out of curiosity, do you know what sects/religions count the book of enoch as canon?

[sthugh]

@jmrut1992 Hi; as far as I know only the Coptic and Ethiopian Churches have Enoch in their canon.

[mhopwood1]

Re-reading that perfection/inerrancy question. I still think St. Augustine does it for me. At some point he says something like "in my pride I thought the Scriptures seemed to simple, rude and primitive"... the point is basically the same one you make in your video; God does not bash us on the head with wisdom, He invites us to relate to Him in a really human and therefore active and intelligent way, with our whole intellectual, cultural and affective capacity (even if always limited!).

[mhopwood1]

The Catholic Church does not teach dogmas without proof or explanation. For all the officially defined dogmas (there are very very few!) there are lengthy and detailed explanations drawing on years or centuries of history, experience and thought.

[mhopwood1]

A lot of the problems of the kind of fundamentalism you describe are actually Protestant problems. The Catholic Church explicitly acknowledges (in St. Augustine, for example) that the Bible by no means appears perfect and obviously inspired. In fact it appears almost the opposite, yet it is inspired.

There's a direct analogy to Christ (and the Church) - seen as just a man, or even accused of blasphemy and evil deeds, yet Christians beleive He was personally divine in a more-or-less hidden way.

[gmdinformation]

What is your interpretation of "Dei Verbum" from the 2nd Vatican Council? This sounds a lot like an inerrancy stance to me.

"Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation. Therefore 'all Scripture is divinely inspired'..."

[mhopwood1]

I think the definition of "inerrancy" needs to be established first! :D

Forgive me, it's been years since I trawled through Vat II, but the main point is that the texts are inspired and inerrant, but not in a literalist, shoehorning into an ideology way (as the quote above shows by its carefully guarded language).

Catholic Biblical interpretation has matured vastly in recent centuries (in large part thanks to great Protestant scholars, it must be said!).

Historical-critical is fully accepted.

[radventures]

well said my friend

[ambulansen]

Everyone hates the fundamentalist, even the fundamentalist.

[DanS24106]

Your definition of dogma perplexes me. I have always taken it to mean beliefs which must be held by one in order to consider themselves in true communion with their faith....which by way of a digression makes me wonder how there are so many Catholics who dont hold to significant chunks of dogma of the Catholic faith but insist strangely that they are still Catholic.

[gmdinformation]

Hi Dan,

Here's how WordWeb Dictionary defines it:

Dogma:

1. A religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof.

2. A doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative.

Re Catholics, there was a priest excommunicated from a Polish parish in St Louis a few days ago for defying vatican orders. The church has decided to ingore the vatican and keep their priest. I can't fault them for wanting to fight the system though. The vatican was as wrong as rain on this one.

[nabilelshukri]

Read the Quran you'll find the answer

God Bless.

[petty1800]

I read the Koran. At least a lot of it. No answers there.

Go to the second part of this video if you want real, honest answers.

[redheadfo847]

this is wonderful good sir

[ccwman21]

I like where you have been in this video and I will follow you to part 2. But, I prefer to find a thesis early and then evaluate the thesis' supporting facts. I am not yet sure of a thesis and presume that it will come out in part 2.

[gmdinformation]

Well that's good constructive criticism, the kind I'm glad to get--thanks; hopefully I'll get better.

[ccwman21]

My wife is an attorney & she implores me, when teaching, to 1)tell the class what I'm about to tell them, 2)Tell them what I am telling them, and then conclude by 3)telling the class what I've told them. However, there is a valid reason not to follow this schema, i.e. prejudice, bias, and tradition. When people hear your thesis early, they may close their mind, and never hear the evidence which supports the thesis.

[gmdinformation]

True.

[itreeye]

gmdinformation:

Hi, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I'm wondering this. If there really is an intelligent, involved and motivated source of the universe, than why can't His designs of interelation w/ His creation be so subtle as to allow such ambiguity as found in the Bible? If faith is essential to love in a relationship, than why *would* He have allowed such a mind blowing, perfect book as you suggest He should have?

[itreeye]

oops, I see from your 2nd video you are not suggesting that He *should* have made the perfect book, because we agree about the value of faith. Still, I can't help but think that this value is intertwined in the manifestation of the Bible, as it is, throughout history; an integral part of His overall plan for us. I mean, I think Paul for instance was more 'inspired' than GMac and still, for some reason, it was God who allowed him to write about such things as long hair and hats in church, etc.

[gmdinformation]

I remember that Lewis thought some parts of the bible were more inspired than others. I think some of Paul's writings were more inspired than GMD's and vise-versa. And I think 'Mere Christianity' and 'The Everlasting Man' are both more inspiring than anything in any bible. Yet on the other hand, probably neither of those books would exist without the bible. Inspiration/imagination/ seem to both nourish and feed off themselves. I don't see it ending with the bible.

[itreeye]

My position is that rather than some parts of the bible being more inspired than others(Lewis' opinion?) rather, the parts that seem less inspired to us are as they are for a reason, therefore, inspired. I mean, the bible is uniquely positioned to not only be part of the shape of the history of man, but also uniquely available to shape the history of a man according to his ability to listen, in faith.

[gmdinformation]

Lewis: "...all Holy Scripture is in some sense--though not all parts of it in the same sense--the word of God." He seems to have changed his views to something much more skeptical by the late 50's when he said the following: "Whatever view we hold on the divine authority of Scripture must make room for the following facts: 1. The distinction which St Paul makes in I Cor VII between ["not I, but the Lord"] and ["I speak, not the Lord"]. He goes on to name several other biblical difficulties.

[gmdinformation]

Which bible is the inspired one? The Coptic (for instance)? It was the first to have both an old and new testament and has been around the longest. It also contains the Septuagint. Does your bible contain the old testament Christ used the most? Before you can claim anything close to total inspiration, you need to let us know exatly which bible must be the one.

[itreeye]

gmdinformation:

I'm saying, if one is coming from presumption that there is an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent source of everything who is intimately involved with the unfolding of the reason for creation, than reflection on claims of the bible as scripture by its writers is fair; if one is a Christian. Paul was so humble and would never have wanted to allow confusion between him and God. His writing about this can only back up the initial presumption that what he wrote God allowed/wanted.

[gmdinformation]

I'll be presenting more videos in the future about the documentary hypothesis, Sundaland, and other things that have brought about a more reasonable POV of the bible than I previously had. Losing one's beliefs in things like inerrancy will help to bring about a deeper faith--not a lesser one in my estimation. So this is my final comment in this thread. Nothing personal mind you. But that's why I make videos. So I can talk about huge chunks of things at once instead of small notes here and there.

[itreeye]

gmdinformation:

...fair enough. I love that too! The idea of talking about "huge chunks of things at once" for their inherent, objective sake, etc.

Thanks very much for your videos.

[23474971]

Clever video, one of the best i've seen on the suject, interesting points. The Troll.

[ProfMTH]

Very nicely done. I'm off to part two.

[Jitpring]

(continued)

We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one's own ego and desires."

-Joseph Ratzinger, Mass Pro Eligendo Romano Pontifice, Vatican Basilica, 4/18/05

[Jitpring]

"Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be 'tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine,' (Eph. 4:14) seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times.