@wotdoesitmatter All these pro-occupation people have to do is to look into the history of the U.S. in fomenting coups in foreign countries and in crushing democratically-elected govts that doesn't serve America's interests. Or they can also google 'The Gaza Bombshell Vanity Fair' to see how Hamas actually pre-empted a U.S.-backed, Israeli-facilitated Fatah coup in Gaza. Yeah, Israel has always restricted goods going into Gaza, even 10 years back. But that's not as tough as this latest one. :(
@frednoname1 Blockades can be legal but when a blockade collectively punishes the population, which Israel is guilty of, then it contravenes international humanitarian law.
@wotdoesitmatter Blockades allways hurt the civilian population. So what? Shooting rockets into Israel could also be called "collective punishment" Where is your condemnation of hamas? A group sworn to GENOCIDE by the way.
@wotdoesitmatter Nobody is starving in Gaza. That is a lie. Hamas is not a "resistance" group because they are not resisting an occupier. There is not one jew in Gaza. They all left in return of a promise of peace from Gaza. Israel sends in humanitarian aid every day. They feed more Gazans that Hamas does. Every ounce of aid on that flotilia that was not on the decleared blockade list ended up, in gaza. Hamas opposed that btw.
@wotdoesitmatter Fact is there is not genocide in Gaza. Whereas Hamas promises a genocide in Israel. Its in thier founding charter. They have never stoped firing missiles into Israel. The fact that the deal of land for peace in gaza failed as it did in lebanon, is a major reason why the israels don't want to give anything else up. Why would they? It will not stop the attacks. Gaza and lebanon proved that.
@frednoname1 I've had these arguments a 1000 times with blinkered people like you fred. All the information is out there. I'm not going to be drawn in to discussing this when you have no intention of looking at facts. Regurgitating old soundbites that do not tally with reality is nothing special. You're not the first and you won't be the last. Fact is, the world is fully of people like you. This isn't an insult, it's an observation. I'm banning you from my channel. You're clearly a wind up troll
@wotdoesitmatter That's something Israeli apologists never get to know. All they know is that oh there's a blockade to prevent weapons going into Gaza to kill Israeli civilians. But do they know of the ban on exports? The ban of raw material imports to jumpstart Gaza's factories? Do they know of how the Israeli Govt' so cherish Palestinian lives that they extort sick Palestinians to spy for them or they'll not be allowed to seek vital medical care not found in Gaza?
@frednoname1 Yeah, just as the Israeli occupation is 'quite legal' under int' law. One good supporting evidence of this is that in 2004, the highest judicial body in the world, the International Court of Justice (ICJ), ruled that the Israeli military occupation of the WB, Gaza and E Jerusalem (known as the Occupied Palestinian Territories), together with all its Jews-only settlements there, are illegal under int' law. So yeah, you got this one right.
@frednoname1 Yeah, typical disregard for int' law. You are no different from the Mullahs in Iran. :) They despise int' law too when they are found to be in the wrong. Great job defending Israeli Govt' policies, friend. :)
@PeaceForMidEast Israel is trying to do the right thing. International law has been increadably biased for decades. They consistantly attack Israel and ignore the other sides blatant human rights and war crimes. I reject the UN as well. But under that law as written, what Israel is doing is quite legal. Israels goal is not genocide. If it was, they would have done it decades ago. They have had that power since 1967 yet strangely palestinians were not wiped off the map.
@frednoname1 Yeah. To Israel, the UN is 'biased' when Israel gets censored but the UN is 'okay' or even 'fair' when Israel's foe Iran gets sanctioned. To Iran,the UN is 'biased' when Iran gets censored, but the UN is 'fair' when Israel gets condemned. We all know how the accused likes to play the 'bias' card. It's just ppl like you who choose to ignore it or to reinforce the game. :) Hey, btw, do you know that Israel is getting wiped off the map as we speak now. Check out al-Arakib. :)
@PeaceForMidEast So far he has done nothing but repeat pro-genocide Hamas propganda. I found all his talking points on islamic extremist web sites. When challenged he simply blocked me and is no just ignoring me.
Fact is Gaza is not occupied, it is under blockade. A legaly decleared blockade which has been legaly enforced. There is no genocide going on in Gaza. Everyone is being fed. Mostly by Israel. Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians, whereas Hamas aims at civilians.
@frednoname1 Israels stated goal is peace. Hamas' stated goal is genocide. Hamas got its weapons by smuggling them in aid. Which is why israel wants to check the aid.
@frednoname1 Yes, Israel's stated goal is peace. The key lies in the word 'stated'. Plain rhetoric with no reality on the ground to back it up. If Israel so desires a just peace, then why is it undermining the very possibility of the creation of an independent Palestinian state by stealing at least 42% of the WB land for its illegal Jews-only settlements in the past 4 decades?? Oh no, Israel wants peace. Every PM said that...while building more and more settlements and kicking Palestinians out.
@frednoname1 I can understand why he wants to block you. It's safe to assume that he had realised that he can do much more good for the Palestinian people and the misled Israeli public than to try to have a decent conversation with an Israeli apologist. :) I won't block you bcos you haven't yet violated my rules of debate and I'm happy to talk to you even though we have differences. Gaza's air, sea and land borders (except the one at Rafah) are control by Israel entirely...
@PeaceForMidEast He blocked me because he didn't want to hear the truth. Its a common occurance when talking to the pro-genocide people who support hamas.
@frednoname1 Yeah. So you really expect the Palestinians to sit tight and do nothing while they get evicted from their homes and their land stolen to build illegal Jews-only settlements? Come on! So illegal settlement activity will continue until the Palestinians give up their right, under int' law just as any other occupied people have, to resist an illegal foreign military occupation? If that's the case, then drop the pretense! The Israeli Govt' doesn't want a genuine peace, just more land!
@PeaceForMidEast It is not an illegal occupation. The Israelis won that land in war. While the violence continues, more settlements will be built. Count on it.
@frednoname1 Yeah, what you are essentially saying is that the Nazi Germans were right to crush the Warsaw ghetto uprising, because the oppressed Jews there refused to renounce violence against their occupiers and oppressors. Also, the Nazi Germans were acting in self-defense when they crush the resistance of Warsaw's Jews. The crackdown is not illegal too. Count on it!
@PeaceForMidEast There is no "conversation" with this Israeli apologist or any other of his ilk. As I've said, I've seen his sort a 1000 times and reasoned debate goes nowhere. There is no point. International law, human rights groups and the rest of the world are all wrong and biased in apologists eyes. I mean, why do they always pick on poor Israel everytime they break the law. Just for once why can't the world let Israel break the law with impunity.
I have no problem blocking trolls of this sort just as I would have no problem blocking any other low down slime who supports the oppression of helpless people. In my book, these people are the lowest of the low.
@wotdoesitmatter Exactly! Int' law is seen as dirt by oppressive regimes and their apologists. So yes, maybe the world should just keep their silence and allow Israel to break the law without consequence like what the world has basically been doing for the past 40 years.
@frednoname1 Gaza's people have no free access to the outside world and has to live by the 'generosity' of the Israeli Govt'. If that is not occupation, then maybe you can explain how Gaza is independent, bearing in mind it has no controls over its borders and access to the outside world. Yes, I believe that Israel has 'gone out of its way to avoid (harming) civilians'. Only about 900 Palestinian civilians got killed by Israel, mostly by 'precision air strike'. Only...
@PeaceForMidEast AGAIN, under the international law you claim to support, it is illegal to use civilians as shields like hamas does. 900 civlians were killed because hamas placed thier fighters amoungst them. They use schools and hospitals as shields as well. UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW, using a protected site for military purposes removes that protection. Want fewer deaths? Stop staging in kindergardens.
@frednoname1 How many sanctions were imposed on Israel by the UN? How many sanctions were imposed for Israel's refusal to allow int' inspections of its nuclear facilities? Yes, of course you can look at the rhetoric coming out from the UN. But the fact is that Israel never got sanctioned. Why? Because its godfather the United States is a permanent member of the UNSC. So yes, the UN is biased in its actions. But the biasness favors Israel, not against it. :)
@frednoname1 With American help, Israel is currently conducting a slow but steady campaign of annexation of Palestinian land. BTW, most of the weapons used by Israel in Lebanon in 2006 and in Gaza in 2008-09 comes from America. It's nothing new; American weapons have always been used by Israel to massacre civilians. So yes, America is helping Israel to massacre civilians. Genocide no?
@frednoname1 Yes, 'collateral damage' is just an euphemism for genocide. So you are for the Nazis placing all Jews in concentration camps until the Jews stop resisting Nazi oppression? Well said, my friend!
so thats your alternative? you offering to lift the blockade and give Hamas free access to Israel? isn't their agenda clear?
talk to Hamas? its like saying, talk to Al-Queida.. Hamas is a terror group which is being supported by Iran... how can Israel open their gates for them?
and how come the whole world Ignores Egypt side of this whole blockade?
and that "international water" is an illegal attack statement is wrong, go read the rules again.
@KopatchEP No, lifting the blockade doesn't give Hamas 'free access' to Israel. I must say u lack knowledge about this blockade. This blockade only causes ordinary Gazans to suffer, while failing to weaken Hamas or force it to recognise Israel. To make peace, you talk to your enemies, not just your frie nds. Al-Qaeda have stated that they don't want any talks, but Hamas has in the past conducted indirect talks with Israel and is still willing to negotiate a pre-1967 solution with Israel.
@KopatchEP No, by lifting the blockade, Israel isn't 'open their gates' to Hamas, unless you view all Palestinians as Hamas. No, Israel is the main player in imposing this blockade, Egypt, being a dictatorship, follows suit after coming under pressure from the U.S. and Israel. Plus the fact that Egypt's govt' do not view Hamas,which has connections with the Egyptian opposition, favourably.
@KopatchEP So, shifting the focus on the accomplice obscures the real force behind the blockade. Yes, attacking an unarmed (carrying small knives while on the sea doesn't count; a knife is a survival tool in case of emergency) civilian ship in int' waters is illegal under int' law. Israel's blockade of Gaza, which causes nothing but a humanitarian disaster to ordinary Palestinians, is illegal in itself.
@KopatchEP Israel's actions in enforcing that illegal policy are considered illegal too. I must say that you do have a superficial view on the blockade, believing that it is effective in weakening Hamas and at the same time protecting Palestinians' rights, when in fact all the UN and human rights groups' reports tells the world a very different story altogether. Please read up more and then make a stronger defense of Israel's illegal actions.
@PeaceForMidEast I know there are ordinary gazan civilians who are getting hurt by this all process. but in this kind of warfare its impossible to have a victim free situation. go and listen to what the UN WATCH had to say about the last operation in gaza. Israel is the most humanitarian army in the world. the situation this 2 nations have gotten to is bad, but thats the way they are. its a snow ball that cannot be taken back.
Hamas are winning the media war. but if Israel will let guard down
@KopatchEP Yes, in war people do suffer. But the fact is that the blockade has failed to achieve anything but a needless humanitarian crisis for Gazans. Hamas has not been weakened politically, it has still not recognise Israel and it can still fire rockets. Instead, the results of the blockade is an increase in poverty, food insecurity, sky-rocketing food prices, and Palestinians dying from not getting emergency medical aid outside Gaza.
@PeaceForMidEast wrong. the blockade has made Israel as relatively safe place to live in.
see, its quite simple, if we open the blockade, Hamas will receive endless amount of weapons, they will take all the construction materials and make bonkers for their soldiers. it will be an Iranian port to the west.
its sad that innocent civilians are being hurt, and I agree that Gaza needs to be free, but it needs to be free of Hamas, as they are their real enemies.
@KopatchEP I'm sorry if you view the world's outrage over the blockade as simply a media war btw Hamas and Israel. No one is saying that Hamas is the victim here, or that Israel should allow arms to enter Gaza. What the int' community is upset about is the pointless suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza. You know that, instead you chose to portray this as simply a media war. How pathetic.
all the media want to see is blood, she doesn't care who's blood is it. but preferably the blood of the weak. the media love to support the underdog without even considering the history.
Hamas doesn't want peace, their whole agenda is to free Palestine completely, believing they wanna talk and go back to 67 borders is being naive.
at this time it feels the whole world are against Israel even tho worse things going on all over the world? why? you should know.
@KopatchEP I don't know how you can view this blockade as sustainable and effective. BTW, this blockade is not a long-term solution. Of course, Israel can do fine with this blockade lasting forever, but with each passing day, Gazans are suffering more- and needlessly. I've alr provided, as the int' community has, an alternative, which is to lift the blockade and engage Hamas in dialogue- indirect or direct.
@KopatchEP 'at this time it feels the whole world are against Israel even tho worse things going on all over the world? '? That's a weird point from you. So if there are more suffering and tragedy in Darfur, the world should therefore focus on Sudan and not the Palestinians? So if Sudan commits more atrocities in Darfur, the world should therefore take lightly Israel's actions in Gaza? What is that argument based on? Nothing but rubbish. And that's from you.
@PeaceForMidEast it just shows is more about blaming Israel then saving the Gaza people. thats all.
I'm not saying your one of them, but this "anti-Israeli" movement that is coming out is just an excuse for the anti-Semites to start hating jews again.
but don't get me wrong. its not everyone. many people really care for the Palestinians, which is fine, just don't be so blind about it and understand why things are the way they are.
@KopatchEP You are wrong. The world isn't calling for Israel to lift the blockade and allow Hamas to receive weapons. We are calling for Israel to lift the blockade so that humanitarian aid can freely enter Gaza, of course an international presence along the Gaza-Israel border to inspect the goods is a good idea.
@frednoname1 If that's the case, which obviously isn't, and the UNWRA has already said so, why did Israel banned certain fruits and vegetables and restrict food imports, thus causing a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, a crisis which only Israel and her apologists like you dispute? If the blockade was meant to stop weapons flowing into Gaza, then please tell me how potato chips posed a security threat to Israel.
@KopatchEP Arrangements can be made so that an international organisation, or even NATO, can be present along the border and check whether any arms are entering Gaza. If Israel and Hamas agrees to it, then there would not be any chances that 'an Iranian port to the west' would be possible. I can't agree with you that the world's outrage over the aid convoy raid is more about blaming Israel then helping Gazans.
@PeaceForMidEast o and btw, where was the world when they kidnapped our soldier? for 4 years Gilad Shalit is sitting in god forbidden basement and the world is silent. why is that?
@KopatchEP No, that's a lie. The world isn't silent on Gilad Shalit. It has on many occasions called for the immediate unconditional release of the Israeli soldier. I would instead say that the world is silent on the Israeli detention of hundreds of Palestinian children each year. Unlike Gilad Shalit, those children aren't combatants. By trying to link Shalit's fate with 1.5 million Palestinian children is absurd, and that's what the Israeli Govt' has done.
@KopatchEP Yes, there are always anti-semitic people who are so bigoted that they would always blame Jews for everything. I'm glad that you can see that many are not anti-semitic and are just concerned for the Palestinians. I respect that.
@frednoname1 Also, the Gaza blockade hasn't been eased, at least not in a meaningful way. Exports, the flow of goods and people, the import of raw materials to restart factories and boost employment...they are still banned under Israel's illegal blockade. Please look into the details before you try to put up a defense of the indefensible. :)
@PeaceForMidEast I support the blockade till Hamas is destroyed. That is not collective punishment not matter what Hamas and thier pro-genocide allies say.
Supporting Hamas is supporting genocide since that is thier stated goal.
@frednoname1 For your info, Hamas would never be destroyed. Hamas is not just a group of fighters. Hamas stands for an idea. An idea of a free Palestine without Israeli occupation. You can destroy Hamas, but at a heavy price. First, you would have to kill many Palestinian civilians in the process, since the Gaza Strip is one of the most densely-populated areas in the world and since Israel so much love to employ the Dahiya war strategy.
@PeaceForMidEast Hamas stands for genocide. Read thier charter. Yes I know alot of civilians would be killed, because hamas illegaly hides amoungst them. Israel should just go in and kill them because nothing else works with these genocidal freaks.
@frednoname1 Only the Israeli Govt' claims to have evidence of a widespread use of human shields by Hamas. There's not a single mainstream human rights groups, which is what we all turn to for info in a combat situation (man, can u trust the combatants to tell the truth themselves?) which has evidence that Hamas uses human shields. On the contrary, there's plenty of human rights groups which documented, extensively, on the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields by the IDF.
@PeaceForMidEast Strange how the "human rights" groups ignore photos, videos, reports... I saw video of hamas firing mortars from a school!!! STOP LYING TO PROMOTE GENOCIDE.
@frednoname1 What a loaded statement! I'm lying to promote genocide? Come on! You rely on IDF-provided footage but disregard the evidence given by human rights groups...that's the same as if I would rely solely on Hamas footage and ignore human rights groups' footage. That's silly!
@frednoname1 Do you know that Gaza is one of the most densely-populated areas in the world (btw, before I forget, I would send u the link to an article, based on the definitions as set out in int' law about whether Gaza is still occupied by Israel or not. I would send it through the Personal Message box)? Do you expect Hamas to wear uniforms, stand out in an open field and fire their antiquated AK-47s at Israeli F-16s? Would you be that stupid to do so if you were Hamas?
@frednoname1 Secondly, if you destroy Hamas, you would only encourage the birth of more violent, extremist groups which are more hardline and non-negotiable. We all know of Hamas' charter, but do you know that Hamas has for more than one occasion called for a two-state solution based on the pre-1967 lines, something which Israel refuse, so that the 'Palestinian resistance can come to an end' ( google 'Khaled Meshaal two-state solution')? You probably don't. And you probably don't care either.
@frednoname1 At least Hamas is willing to accept the int' consensus on how to resolve the conflict- a two-state solution based on the pre-1967 lines. Hamas has also conducted secret talks with Israel, no doubt. Hamas may be reluctant to admit it publicly, but it does talk to Israel at times. If you get groups such as the Jund Ansar Allah dominating Gaza, then there really would not be any chance for peace because Salafist groups like these DO NOT EVER recognise Israel, even pre-1967 Israel.
@frednoname1 Of course Hamas do fire at Israeli soldiers from within Gaza's neighbourhoods. That's guerrilla warfare, my friend. If they had some F-16s and at ; least some T-55 tanks, would they still fight from within the population? It's a crime when Hamas uses human shields (there are bound to be some cases , but there's no evidence that the practice is widespread. On the contrary, the IDF has been identified by human rights groups as having used human shields extensively.
@frednoname1 Yes, everyone in this world is biased against Israel except Israel and Israel itself. :) Of course I would not shy away from the fact that there are bound to be cases where Hamas uses human shields. But I wouldn't shy away either from pointing out the fact that the IDF has been identified as having used Palestinian civilians as human shields extensively. :)
@frednoname1 I hope Gilad Shalit is not killed or harmed. I hope that he will be released soon, together with hundreds of Palestinian children currently held captive by Israel.
@PeaceForMidEast Those "children" are armed fighters. So far Hamas has only released the bodies of thier tourtured executed prisoners. This guy is dead and was probably tortured to death. That is the Hamas and hezbullah SOP. (another war crime ignored.)
@frednoname1 Yeah, again. So if you are armed with rocks and stones, and you throw them at the occupying forces, you are a 'armed fighter'. Well-said. Then what are those heavily-armed Israeli soldiers in the PT? Gigantic killing monsters??? Yes, Hamas tortures and it should be condemned. But I'm just curious, do you happen to know if Israel practises torture and collective punishment against the Palestinian people? Or do you believe that Israel is holy, pure and Right...God's Chosen People??
@PeaceForMidEast Yes, you are. In a war zone throwing rocks will get you taken in. Thats hardly new. Israelis are not perfect, but they are sure better than hamas or hezbullah.
@frednoname1 Hamas and Hezbollah are no doubt terrorists, but the Israeli Govt' is a terrorist group too. If the Israeli Govt' is any better than Hamas and Hezbollah, then it must be the fact that Israel kills much more civilians than Hamas and Hezbollah does combined. BTW, if you are under occupation, you would do nothing to hurt your occupiers? Come on, that's such a fake and hypocritical answer from you. :)
@frednoname1 Yeah, just read the link I've send you and imagine...if Israel's air, sea and land borders are controlled by Iran, with no Iranian soldiers or military bases on the ground, and Iran has the final say on what goes in and out of Israel, then is Israel independent? Or under Iranian occupation?
@frednoname1 Of course the birth of more hardline Palestinian militant groups is exactly what the Israeli Govt' would prefer to having Hamas finally agreeing to peace with Israel.
@frednoname1 So Israel killed hundreds of Palestinian civilians in 3 weeks and Hamas killed 2 dozens of Israeli civilians in 8 years of rocket fire and Hamas is 'the most violent you can get'?? You aren't making sense here. Israel demands that Hamas renounce violence and recognise Israel, and I assume that's the chance you want from Hamas. But why should Hamas renounce violence while Israel need not renounce violence? Why should Hamas give up its right to resist occupation?
Oh forget it, simply another nazi like genocide supporting pro-islamic death merchant. Facts don't bother you at all. I am done with your dishonest lying anti-semite crap.
@frednoname1 Oh, come on! Continue to play the anti-semitism and holocaust card! It won't work! It's dated btw, in case you didn't know that. Gaza is not occupied? Tell me yout answer on my Israel-Iran analogy. I'll be interested to know.
@frednoname1 So should the Jews of Warsaw ghetto renounce violence against their Nazi oppressors? Secondly, why should Hamas recognise Israel's right to exist when Israel doesn't recognise Palestine's right to exist? Oh yes, you would say that all Israeli Govts' say that they want peace and a two-state solution. But what about the reality on the ground? You just have to read B'Tselem's latest report on Israel's land theft in the WB, titled aptly 'By Hook and By Crook'.
The blockade is about 10 years old not 3. It was tightened after the Hamas election win and all out after Fatah failed to seize control.
wotdoesitmatter 1 year ago
@wotdoesitmatter All these pro-occupation people have to do is to look into the history of the U.S. in fomenting coups in foreign countries and in crushing democratically-elected govts that doesn't serve America's interests. Or they can also google 'The Gaza Bombshell Vanity Fair' to see how Hamas actually pre-empted a U.S.-backed, Israeli-facilitated Fatah coup in Gaza. Yeah, Israel has always restricted goods going into Gaza, even 10 years back. But that's not as tough as this latest one. :(
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
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The blockade is quite legal under international law.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Blockades can be legal but when a blockade collectively punishes the population, which Israel is guilty of, then it contravenes international humanitarian law.
wotdoesitmatter 1 year ago
@wotdoesitmatter Blockades allways hurt the civilian population. So what? Shooting rockets into Israel could also be called "collective punishment" Where is your condemnation of hamas? A group sworn to GENOCIDE by the way.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 hurting and punishing are two different things. Starving the people breaks international humanitarian law. Fact.
I'm not going to criticise the resistance movement Hamas especially not while slow genocide is being inflicted by Israel on the Palestinians.
wotdoesitmatter 1 year ago
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wotdoesitmatter 1 year ago
@wotdoesitmatter Nobody is starving in Gaza. That is a lie. Hamas is not a "resistance" group because they are not resisting an occupier. There is not one jew in Gaza. They all left in return of a promise of peace from Gaza. Israel sends in humanitarian aid every day. They feed more Gazans that Hamas does. Every ounce of aid on that flotilia that was not on the decleared blockade list ended up, in gaza. Hamas opposed that btw.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@wotdoesitmatter Fact is there is not genocide in Gaza. Whereas Hamas promises a genocide in Israel. Its in thier founding charter. They have never stoped firing missiles into Israel. The fact that the deal of land for peace in gaza failed as it did in lebanon, is a major reason why the israels don't want to give anything else up. Why would they? It will not stop the attacks. Gaza and lebanon proved that.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 I've had these arguments a 1000 times with blinkered people like you fred. All the information is out there. I'm not going to be drawn in to discussing this when you have no intention of looking at facts. Regurgitating old soundbites that do not tally with reality is nothing special. You're not the first and you won't be the last. Fact is, the world is fully of people like you. This isn't an insult, it's an observation. I'm banning you from my channel. You're clearly a wind up troll
wotdoesitmatter 1 year ago
@wotdoesitmatter I win the argument because you blocked me. Thank you.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yeah, I guess everyone who ignores a liar is a loser himself, yeah?
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@wotdoesitmatter That's something Israeli apologists never get to know. All they know is that oh there's a blockade to prevent weapons going into Gaza to kill Israeli civilians. But do they know of the ban on exports? The ban of raw material imports to jumpstart Gaza's factories? Do they know of how the Israeli Govt' so cherish Palestinian lives that they extort sick Palestinians to spy for them or they'll not be allowed to seek vital medical care not found in Gaza?
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yeah, just as the Israeli occupation is 'quite legal' under int' law. One good supporting evidence of this is that in 2004, the highest judicial body in the world, the International Court of Justice (ICJ), ruled that the Israeli military occupation of the WB, Gaza and E Jerusalem (known as the Occupied Palestinian Territories), together with all its Jews-only settlements there, are illegal under int' law. So yeah, you got this one right.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast The ICJ is bullshit and I don't recognize its rulings.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yeah, typical disregard for int' law. You are no different from the Mullahs in Iran. :) They despise int' law too when they are found to be in the wrong. Great job defending Israeli Govt' policies, friend. :)
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Israel is trying to do the right thing. International law has been increadably biased for decades. They consistantly attack Israel and ignore the other sides blatant human rights and war crimes. I reject the UN as well. But under that law as written, what Israel is doing is quite legal. Israels goal is not genocide. If it was, they would have done it decades ago. They have had that power since 1967 yet strangely palestinians were not wiped off the map.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yeah. To Israel, the UN is 'biased' when Israel gets censored but the UN is 'okay' or even 'fair' when Israel's foe Iran gets sanctioned. To Iran,the UN is 'biased' when Iran gets censored, but the UN is 'fair' when Israel gets condemned. We all know how the accused likes to play the 'bias' card. It's just ppl like you who choose to ignore it or to reinforce the game. :) Hey, btw, do you know that Israel is getting wiped off the map as we speak now. Check out al-Arakib. :)
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Given the number of condemnations of isreal and the total lack of condemnations of arab crimes, the bias is clear.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 As for the legality or illegality of the Gaza blockade, I'm sure you'll learn a lot from wotdoesitmatter. :)
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast So far he has done nothing but repeat pro-genocide Hamas propganda. I found all his talking points on islamic extremist web sites. When challenged he simply blocked me and is no just ignoring me.
Fact is Gaza is not occupied, it is under blockade. A legaly decleared blockade which has been legaly enforced. There is no genocide going on in Gaza. Everyone is being fed. Mostly by Israel. Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians, whereas Hamas aims at civilians.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Israels stated goal is peace. Hamas' stated goal is genocide. Hamas got its weapons by smuggling them in aid. Which is why israel wants to check the aid.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yes, Israel's stated goal is peace. The key lies in the word 'stated'. Plain rhetoric with no reality on the ground to back it up. If Israel so desires a just peace, then why is it undermining the very possibility of the creation of an independent Palestinian state by stealing at least 42% of the WB land for its illegal Jews-only settlements in the past 4 decades?? Oh no, Israel wants peace. Every PM said that...while building more and more settlements and kicking Palestinians out.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast And it will continue till the Palestinians get the hint and stop attacking israel.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 I can understand why he wants to block you. It's safe to assume that he had realised that he can do much more good for the Palestinian people and the misled Israeli public than to try to have a decent conversation with an Israeli apologist. :) I won't block you bcos you haven't yet violated my rules of debate and I'm happy to talk to you even though we have differences. Gaza's air, sea and land borders (except the one at Rafah) are control by Israel entirely...
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast He blocked me because he didn't want to hear the truth. Its a common occurance when talking to the pro-genocide people who support hamas.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yeah. So you really expect the Palestinians to sit tight and do nothing while they get evicted from their homes and their land stolen to build illegal Jews-only settlements? Come on! So illegal settlement activity will continue until the Palestinians give up their right, under int' law just as any other occupied people have, to resist an illegal foreign military occupation? If that's the case, then drop the pretense! The Israeli Govt' doesn't want a genuine peace, just more land!
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast It is not an illegal occupation. The Israelis won that land in war. While the violence continues, more settlements will be built. Count on it.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yeah, what you are essentially saying is that the Nazi Germans were right to crush the Warsaw ghetto uprising, because the oppressed Jews there refused to renounce violence against their occupiers and oppressors. Also, the Nazi Germans were acting in self-defense when they crush the resistance of Warsaw's Jews. The crackdown is not illegal too. Count on it!
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast There is no "conversation" with this Israeli apologist or any other of his ilk. As I've said, I've seen his sort a 1000 times and reasoned debate goes nowhere. There is no point. International law, human rights groups and the rest of the world are all wrong and biased in apologists eyes. I mean, why do they always pick on poor Israel everytime they break the law. Just for once why can't the world let Israel break the law with impunity.
wotdoesitmatter 1 year ago
I have no problem blocking trolls of this sort just as I would have no problem blocking any other low down slime who supports the oppression of helpless people. In my book, these people are the lowest of the low.
wotdoesitmatter 1 year ago
@wotdoesitmatter Yes, you are right! :)
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@wotdoesitmatter Exactly! Int' law is seen as dirt by oppressive regimes and their apologists. So yes, maybe the world should just keep their silence and allow Israel to break the law without consequence like what the world has basically been doing for the past 40 years.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Gaza's people have no free access to the outside world and has to live by the 'generosity' of the Israeli Govt'. If that is not occupation, then maybe you can explain how Gaza is independent, bearing in mind it has no controls over its borders and access to the outside world. Yes, I believe that Israel has 'gone out of its way to avoid (harming) civilians'. Only about 900 Palestinian civilians got killed by Israel, mostly by 'precision air strike'. Only...
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Gaza is under blockade. Occupation would mean soldiers inside Gaza. THEY. ARE. DIFFERENT. THINGS.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast AGAIN, under the international law you claim to support, it is illegal to use civilians as shields like hamas does. 900 civlians were killed because hamas placed thier fighters amoungst them. They use schools and hospitals as shields as well. UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW, using a protected site for military purposes removes that protection. Want fewer deaths? Stop staging in kindergardens.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 How many sanctions were imposed on Israel by the UN? How many sanctions were imposed for Israel's refusal to allow int' inspections of its nuclear facilities? Yes, of course you can look at the rhetoric coming out from the UN. But the fact is that Israel never got sanctioned. Why? Because its godfather the United States is a permanent member of the UNSC. So yes, the UN is biased in its actions. But the biasness favors Israel, not against it. :)
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Without the USA, the muslims would have already commited the genocide they desire.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 With American help, Israel is currently conducting a slow but steady campaign of annexation of Palestinian land. BTW, most of the weapons used by Israel in Lebanon in 2006 and in Gaza in 2008-09 comes from America. It's nothing new; American weapons have always been used by Israel to massacre civilians. So yes, America is helping Israel to massacre civilians. Genocide no?
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast The annexation would end with a peace deal which they will never get untill the palestinians stop shooting.
There is no genocide in gaza or the west bank. That is a lie. Collateral damage is not genocide or a war crime.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yes, 'collateral damage' is just an euphemism for genocide. So you are for the Nazis placing all Jews in concentration camps until the Jews stop resisting Nazi oppression? Well said, my friend!
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
so thats your alternative? you offering to lift the blockade and give Hamas free access to Israel? isn't their agenda clear?
talk to Hamas? its like saying, talk to Al-Queida.. Hamas is a terror group which is being supported by Iran... how can Israel open their gates for them?
and how come the whole world Ignores Egypt side of this whole blockade?
and that "international water" is an illegal attack statement is wrong, go read the rules again.
KopatchEP 1 year ago
@KopatchEP No, lifting the blockade doesn't give Hamas 'free access' to Israel. I must say u lack knowledge about this blockade. This blockade only causes ordinary Gazans to suffer, while failing to weaken Hamas or force it to recognise Israel. To make peace, you talk to your enemies, not just your frie nds. Al-Qaeda have stated that they don't want any talks, but Hamas has in the past conducted indirect talks with Israel and is still willing to negotiate a pre-1967 solution with Israel.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@KopatchEP No, by lifting the blockade, Israel isn't 'open their gates' to Hamas, unless you view all Palestinians as Hamas. No, Israel is the main player in imposing this blockade, Egypt, being a dictatorship, follows suit after coming under pressure from the U.S. and Israel. Plus the fact that Egypt's govt' do not view Hamas,which has connections with the Egyptian opposition, favourably.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@KopatchEP So, shifting the focus on the accomplice obscures the real force behind the blockade. Yes, attacking an unarmed (carrying small knives while on the sea doesn't count; a knife is a survival tool in case of emergency) civilian ship in int' waters is illegal under int' law. Israel's blockade of Gaza, which causes nothing but a humanitarian disaster to ordinary Palestinians, is illegal in itself.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@KopatchEP Israel's actions in enforcing that illegal policy are considered illegal too. I must say that you do have a superficial view on the blockade, believing that it is effective in weakening Hamas and at the same time protecting Palestinians' rights, when in fact all the UN and human rights groups' reports tells the world a very different story altogether. Please read up more and then make a stronger defense of Israel's illegal actions.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast I know there are ordinary gazan civilians who are getting hurt by this all process. but in this kind of warfare its impossible to have a victim free situation. go and listen to what the UN WATCH had to say about the last operation in gaza. Israel is the most humanitarian army in the world. the situation this 2 nations have gotten to is bad, but thats the way they are. its a snow ball that cannot be taken back.
Hamas are winning the media war. but if Israel will let guard down
KopatchEP 1 year ago
@KopatchEP Yes, in war people do suffer. But the fact is that the blockade has failed to achieve anything but a needless humanitarian crisis for Gazans. Hamas has not been weakened politically, it has still not recognise Israel and it can still fire rockets. Instead, the results of the blockade is an increase in poverty, food insecurity, sky-rocketing food prices, and Palestinians dying from not getting emergency medical aid outside Gaza.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast wrong. the blockade has made Israel as relatively safe place to live in.
see, its quite simple, if we open the blockade, Hamas will receive endless amount of weapons, they will take all the construction materials and make bonkers for their soldiers. it will be an Iranian port to the west.
its sad that innocent civilians are being hurt, and I agree that Gaza needs to be free, but it needs to be free of Hamas, as they are their real enemies.
KopatchEP 1 year ago
@KopatchEP I'm sorry if you view the world's outrage over the blockade as simply a media war btw Hamas and Israel. No one is saying that Hamas is the victim here, or that Israel should allow arms to enter Gaza. What the int' community is upset about is the pointless suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza. You know that, instead you chose to portray this as simply a media war. How pathetic.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast people will die.
all the media want to see is blood, she doesn't care who's blood is it. but preferably the blood of the weak. the media love to support the underdog without even considering the history.
Hamas doesn't want peace, their whole agenda is to free Palestine completely, believing they wanna talk and go back to 67 borders is being naive.
at this time it feels the whole world are against Israel even tho worse things going on all over the world? why? you should know.
KopatchEP 1 year ago
@KopatchEP I don't know how you can view this blockade as sustainable and effective. BTW, this blockade is not a long-term solution. Of course, Israel can do fine with this blockade lasting forever, but with each passing day, Gazans are suffering more- and needlessly. I've alr provided, as the int' community has, an alternative, which is to lift the blockade and engage Hamas in dialogue- indirect or direct.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@KopatchEP 'at this time it feels the whole world are against Israel even tho worse things going on all over the world? '? That's a weird point from you. So if there are more suffering and tragedy in Darfur, the world should therefore focus on Sudan and not the Palestinians? So if Sudan commits more atrocities in Darfur, the world should therefore take lightly Israel's actions in Gaza? What is that argument based on? Nothing but rubbish. And that's from you.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast it just shows is more about blaming Israel then saving the Gaza people. thats all.
I'm not saying your one of them, but this "anti-Israeli" movement that is coming out is just an excuse for the anti-Semites to start hating jews again.
but don't get me wrong. its not everyone. many people really care for the Palestinians, which is fine, just don't be so blind about it and understand why things are the way they are.
KopatchEP 1 year ago
@KopatchEP You are wrong. The world isn't calling for Israel to lift the blockade and allow Hamas to receive weapons. We are calling for Israel to lift the blockade so that humanitarian aid can freely enter Gaza, of course an international presence along the Gaza-Israel border to inspect the goods is a good idea.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Israel has been pushing in humanitarian add in the hundreds of tons every week since the blockade began. Try again.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 If that's the case, which obviously isn't, and the UNWRA has already said so, why did Israel banned certain fruits and vegetables and restrict food imports, thus causing a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, a crisis which only Israel and her apologists like you dispute? If the blockade was meant to stop weapons flowing into Gaza, then please tell me how potato chips posed a security threat to Israel.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@KopatchEP Arrangements can be made so that an international organisation, or even NATO, can be present along the border and check whether any arms are entering Gaza. If Israel and Hamas agrees to it, then there would not be any chances that 'an Iranian port to the west' would be possible. I can't agree with you that the world's outrage over the aid convoy raid is more about blaming Israel then helping Gazans.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast o and btw, where was the world when they kidnapped our soldier? for 4 years Gilad Shalit is sitting in god forbidden basement and the world is silent. why is that?
KopatchEP 1 year ago
@KopatchEP No, that's a lie. The world isn't silent on Gilad Shalit. It has on many occasions called for the immediate unconditional release of the Israeli soldier. I would instead say that the world is silent on the Israeli detention of hundreds of Palestinian children each year. Unlike Gilad Shalit, those children aren't combatants. By trying to link Shalit's fate with 1.5 million Palestinian children is absurd, and that's what the Israeli Govt' has done.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@KopatchEP *1.5 million Palestinian civilians.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@KopatchEP Yes, there are always anti-semitic people who are so bigoted that they would always blame Jews for everything. I'm glad that you can see that many are not anti-semitic and are just concerned for the Palestinians. I respect that.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@KopatchEP The soldier is dead. Hamas and the other groups give up bodies not live israel soldiers.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Also, the Gaza blockade hasn't been eased, at least not in a meaningful way. Exports, the flow of goods and people, the import of raw materials to restart factories and boost employment...they are still banned under Israel's illegal blockade. Please look into the details before you try to put up a defense of the indefensible. :)
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Untill you understand that the blockade is quite legal under international law, you will continue to be a genocide supporter.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Nah. I'm a genocide supporter by calling for the end of collective punishment. Your words make sense, yeah?
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast I support the blockade till Hamas is destroyed. That is not collective punishment not matter what Hamas and thier pro-genocide allies say.
Supporting Hamas is supporting genocide since that is thier stated goal.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 For your info, Hamas would never be destroyed. Hamas is not just a group of fighters. Hamas stands for an idea. An idea of a free Palestine without Israeli occupation. You can destroy Hamas, but at a heavy price. First, you would have to kill many Palestinian civilians in the process, since the Gaza Strip is one of the most densely-populated areas in the world and since Israel so much love to employ the Dahiya war strategy.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Hamas stands for genocide. Read thier charter. Yes I know alot of civilians would be killed, because hamas illegaly hides amoungst them. Israel should just go in and kill them because nothing else works with these genocidal freaks.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Only the Israeli Govt' claims to have evidence of a widespread use of human shields by Hamas. There's not a single mainstream human rights groups, which is what we all turn to for info in a combat situation (man, can u trust the combatants to tell the truth themselves?) which has evidence that Hamas uses human shields. On the contrary, there's plenty of human rights groups which documented, extensively, on the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields by the IDF.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Strange how the "human rights" groups ignore photos, videos, reports... I saw video of hamas firing mortars from a school!!! STOP LYING TO PROMOTE GENOCIDE.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 What a loaded statement! I'm lying to promote genocide? Come on! You rely on IDF-provided footage but disregard the evidence given by human rights groups...that's the same as if I would rely solely on Hamas footage and ignore human rights groups' footage. That's silly!
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Do you know that Gaza is one of the most densely-populated areas in the world (btw, before I forget, I would send u the link to an article, based on the definitions as set out in int' law about whether Gaza is still occupied by Israel or not. I would send it through the Personal Message box)? Do you expect Hamas to wear uniforms, stand out in an open field and fire their antiquated AK-47s at Israeli F-16s? Would you be that stupid to do so if you were Hamas?
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast So you admit they use civilians as human shields. Good. I know the difference between occupation and blockade.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Secondly, if you destroy Hamas, you would only encourage the birth of more violent, extremist groups which are more hardline and non-negotiable. We all know of Hamas' charter, but do you know that Hamas has for more than one occasion called for a two-state solution based on the pre-1967 lines, something which Israel refuse, so that the 'Palestinian resistance can come to an end' ( google 'Khaled Meshaal two-state solution')? You probably don't. And you probably don't care either.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast You can't get worse than genocide. So who cares what the new groups are? They will be just as bad as hamas.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 At least Hamas is willing to accept the int' consensus on how to resolve the conflict- a two-state solution based on the pre-1967 lines. Hamas has also conducted secret talks with Israel, no doubt. Hamas may be reluctant to admit it publicly, but it does talk to Israel at times. If you get groups such as the Jund Ansar Allah dominating Gaza, then there really would not be any chance for peace because Salafist groups like these DO NOT EVER recognise Israel, even pre-1967 Israel.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Of course Hamas do fire at Israeli soldiers from within Gaza's neighbourhoods. That's guerrilla warfare, my friend. If they had some F-16s and at ; least some T-55 tanks, would they still fight from within the population? It's a crime when Hamas uses human shields (there are bound to be some cases , but there's no evidence that the practice is widespread. On the contrary, the IDF has been identified by human rights groups as having used human shields extensively.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Human rights groups are strongly biased. There is plenty of evidence of that. At least you admit they are using civilians as shields
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yes, everyone in this world is biased against Israel except Israel and Israel itself. :) Of course I would not shy away from the fact that there are bound to be cases where Hamas uses human shields. But I wouldn't shy away either from pointing out the fact that the IDF has been identified as having used Palestinian civilians as human shields extensively. :)
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@frednoname1 I hope Gilad Shalit is not killed or harmed. I hope that he will be released soon, together with hundreds of Palestinian children currently held captive by Israel.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Those "children" are armed fighters. So far Hamas has only released the bodies of thier tourtured executed prisoners. This guy is dead and was probably tortured to death. That is the Hamas and hezbullah SOP. (another war crime ignored.)
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yeah, again. So if you are armed with rocks and stones, and you throw them at the occupying forces, you are a 'armed fighter'. Well-said. Then what are those heavily-armed Israeli soldiers in the PT? Gigantic killing monsters??? Yes, Hamas tortures and it should be condemned. But I'm just curious, do you happen to know if Israel practises torture and collective punishment against the Palestinian people? Or do you believe that Israel is holy, pure and Right...God's Chosen People??
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Yes, you are. In a war zone throwing rocks will get you taken in. Thats hardly new. Israelis are not perfect, but they are sure better than hamas or hezbullah.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Hamas and Hezbollah are no doubt terrorists, but the Israeli Govt' is a terrorist group too. If the Israeli Govt' is any better than Hamas and Hezbollah, then it must be the fact that Israel kills much more civilians than Hamas and Hezbollah does combined. BTW, if you are under occupation, you would do nothing to hurt your occupiers? Come on, that's such a fake and hypocritical answer from you. :)
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Niether Hamas or Hezbullah are under occupation. One is in Gaza, and one is in Lebanon. Niether are occupied by israeli soldiers.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Yeah, just read the link I've send you and imagine...if Israel's air, sea and land borders are controlled by Iran, with no Iranian soldiers or military bases on the ground, and Iran has the final say on what goes in and out of Israel, then is Israel independent? Or under Iranian occupation?
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Of course the birth of more hardline Palestinian militant groups is exactly what the Israeli Govt' would prefer to having Hamas finally agreeing to peace with Israel.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast Hamas is the most violent you can get so whats the difference? There is no hope of peace with them unless they change who they are.
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 So Israel killed hundreds of Palestinian civilians in 3 weeks and Hamas killed 2 dozens of Israeli civilians in 8 years of rocket fire and Hamas is 'the most violent you can get'?? You aren't making sense here. Israel demands that Hamas renounce violence and recognise Israel, and I assume that's the chance you want from Hamas. But why should Hamas renounce violence while Israel need not renounce violence? Why should Hamas give up its right to resist occupation?
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@PeaceForMidEast GAZA IS NOT OCCUPIED. QUIT LYING.
Oh forget it, simply another nazi like genocide supporting pro-islamic death merchant. Facts don't bother you at all. I am done with your dishonest lying anti-semite crap.
Shouldn't you be building a death camp somewhere?
frednoname1 1 year ago
@frednoname1 Oh, come on! Continue to play the anti-semitism and holocaust card! It won't work! It's dated btw, in case you didn't know that. Gaza is not occupied? Tell me yout answer on my Israel-Iran analogy. I'll be interested to know.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@frednoname1 So should the Jews of Warsaw ghetto renounce violence against their Nazi oppressors? Secondly, why should Hamas recognise Israel's right to exist when Israel doesn't recognise Palestine's right to exist? Oh yes, you would say that all Israeli Govts' say that they want peace and a two-state solution. But what about the reality on the ground? You just have to read B'Tselem's latest report on Israel's land theft in the WB, titled aptly 'By Hook and By Crook'.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
@frednoname1 There is no hope of a fair settlement when Israel is eating up the very pie that the two sides are negotiating over.
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago