@Foojuice You keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile H.A.K. the CFR and the trilateral commission do their culling of useless eaters. How sadly deluded you steeple are.
"To slip the surly bonds of earth, . . . and touch the face of God. I suppose language like this in the future will be excised from our history? You atheists impoverish humanity, to it's core. I don't want to live in the sterile, immoral land you are fashioning for our future. You are a hollow empty people, you CAN'T believe so you suppress the truth. Our forefathers wouldn't even recognize the country you are bringing forth in their name.
So secular charities and organizations like Medecins Sans Frontiers, ACLU, Amnesty, Oxfam Int'l, and Unicef are all trying to destroy humanity? Bitch, they are trying to SAVE humanity. There is no good aspect of religion that cannot be achieved through secular means. Also, Europe is mostly atheist yet they have a higher quality of life than Americans.
Also, demonstrate the truth of your beliefs, rather than just asserting that they are.
Idiot, Unicef is helping third world countries by educating people there on contraceptives, so they don't have a million children and end up not being able to support them. They also help fight for human rights.
You need to do some research before you call other people "fools".
There are multiple sources of conflicting information and no definitive conclusion.
Logically, as Matt pointed out, when you can see what they said in private compared to what they said in public, it seems quite obvious to me that they were simply being politicians and maintaining a pretense.
@AntitheistPOV I think you should take a visit to the capital, the capital, senate and congress have thousands of images of the ten commandments chisled in stone. So much for the "atheism" of our founding fathers, I pity you.
You realize that the vast majority of the monuments in the capitol building weren't commissioned by any of the founding fathers? The building wasn't even complete until 1811, over 10 years after Washington died.
That aside, you're still conflating the a majority Christian population with the ideals of individuals and the state. Some were Christians, nobody is arguing. Jefferson was a deist and repeatedly, consistently criticized Christianity through his life.
And further aside still, you disgrace the memory and belief of those men by attempting to give any religion a claim on the nation as a whole. These were people that fled England to escape religious persecution and had the courage to create a state where men are free to belief as they choose.
I have no doubt whatsoever that every man who signed the constitution would be thoroughly offended by the attempts by theists to edit, circumvent and dilute that document.
I take that to mean you have no factual, relevant response. Piece of advice for you. If you have nothing relevant to say, say nothing. You've gone from simply being wrong to being wrong and stupid.
"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (i.e. the Book of Revelations), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams."
I make state several points on your logic, your terrible arguments and quote Jefferson directly. You degrade the memory of a dead man and threaten me.
It's not so much that you're wrong, it's that you're not even capable of providing a decent argument for why you think you're right. On top of that, you're obviously completely ignorant of the Bible and the religion you claim to follow.
@AntitheistPOV You people are a joke, take a visit to Washington, and BATHE in the truth of the faith of the forefathers of this nation, the entire idea of select leaders from amongst ourselves was taken from the old testament. Please educate yourself. Instead of being just another ignorant doctrinaire.
Did you mean, "Go and look at the things you've already explained to me are not evidence for what I'm claiming!"?
Select leaders from amongst ourselves, eh? We can add Biblical delegation of authority and European history to the things you're completely ignorant of. This is getting to be quite the list.
I did. Since 1946. Only about a hundred years after the people we're discussing died.
I'm not sure what that has to do with whether or not Jefferson was a Christian? Have you given up on the topic and started making random, irrelevant comments, now?
@AntitheistPOV I've looked into the so called separation of church and state and all the other lies you people have foisted upon a credulous American public. Turns out that our forefathers were for the most part devout believers in God. I'm a bit busy in this season to tangle with the likes of you, perhaps after the New Year when I get back from New York.
@Pisces31660 Oh bravo, you must be a true "intellectual", the ad hominem aspersions really clinched your case. When Jefferson writes a personal letter and inc
Use your God given intuition: who shows a higher consciousness level? who kills or who respects life?, who steal or who share? who enslave or who frees? who envy or who love? who is selfish or who is selfless? who is materialistic or who is spiritual?. We are due to move to the next consciousness level by rejecting all materialism and selfishness. Those were Jesus teachings, which atheism reject. God will act, and anyone that refuse to move may be expendable. Open your eyes before is too late.
So I have to wonder where this idea of founding on christian values came from. The fathers weren't christian but most of the population was and many of the states were founded for religious... lets say counter tyranny. Did the population ever really know that it wasn't a christian nation?
@MrWhadayaknow Strange that the quotes that were intended as less public writings espoused a more deist bent, while what was said for public dissemination as an administrative official to fit in, he mentions the Abrahamic god. At that time and place, you fit in much better if you claimed to believe in the Christian god.
@barennis oh riiiight. Why don't you tell us what Jefferson had on his mind. Since you are bent on defending YOUR stance by reading your own perceptions into his actions.
@tinyflyonthewall That is a tall order for anyone. I am not a qualified historian, and neither is anyone else (but historians, of course). It is not in my interest to "prove" that Jefferson was a mere deist.
It's just my mildly educated opinion based on what I have read and can derive within logical bounds of reason from the writings of a man known for advocating the separation/distinction of church and state.
@barennis . . . .3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion. These are the great points on which he endeavored to reform the religion of the Jews."
A belief that there is a future state of rewards and punishments (as Jefferson believed) denies the basic premise of Deism -- that the creator does not interfere with the laws of the universe. Jefferson was no deist.
@barennis "mildly educated" yes, I think that about covers your opinions. Actually the separation of Church and State was meant to protect the Church, it was meant to protect local establishments of religion from federal interference. Jefferson reflected his frequent speaking theme that the government is not to interfere with religion.
@MrWhadayaknow No need to get catty, now. I'm just saying I have read four books about Jefferson (two about his religious opinions) and I have learned about him for a semester at univ. I can't think of what more I can do to inform myself about Jefferson other than reading and taking classes about Jefferson. If I could summon his spirit I would. I will read David Barton's work but I must say that he seems to have a motive in suggesting Jefferson was Christian (what with him being a minister)
@barennis How disengenuous, you suggest David Barton has an ulterior motive and you atheists don't? Don't make me laugh. How typical of you to discount solid evidence. Atheists just want to feel that they are fulfilling the vision the founders had for America, when nothing could be FURTHER from the truth.
BTW You're forgetting is that this country was founded in its earliest times by people who were fleeing government persecution due to their religious beliefs. Not the other way around.
@MrWhadayaknow I did not say that atheists do not have motives to try and prove that Jefferson was critical of religion and possibly only deist. Of course they do. Your rebuttal is appropriate for someone who says "atheists are immune from bias". Everyone is susceptible to confirmation bias and the other pitfalls of discerning a specific answer from a given pool of resources.
Is it really suggestible that Jefferson thought he had the main line to what God "really meant" in your view?
@barennis But of course this kind of prejudice is quite acceptable in todays climate. Anyone with religious beliefs, oh excuse me CHRISTIAN religious beliefs are marginalized. So much so that any serious scientists with a deep belief in God tends to keep it to himself. Otherwise he would probably never get published or taken seriously by his peers. This atmosphere is creating a type of 'closet Christianity" in the ranks of higher learning and Science. Well done! So much for freedom of expression
@tinyflyonthewall Not claiming to have the correct answer. I listen to more informed people and try to broaden my opinion based on new information, and attempt my best at ignoring potential interests (because I do not believe in any gods) that would cloud my evaluation. It just seems more likely that since Jefferson expressed criticisms of church culture and proposed separation of C&S, that he was deist.
@barennis Its ridiculous to argue Jeffersons faith in the Abrahamic God. What is important here is that Jefferson was RAISED on Christian concepts and principals, it was these influences throughout his life that brought him to his convictions and influenced his outlook on life and by extension, governmental powers and limitations. And what makes you think this phrase was uttered for public consumption? It was spoken in the midst of his fellow 'deists" LOL!
@barennis You want a sample of Jeffersons writing do you? Well here you go. You might this intriguing.
The manner in which Jefferson dated an official document. Instead of "in the year of our Lord," Jefferson used the phrase "in the year of our Lord Christ." Historian David Barton has the proof – the original document signed by Jefferson on the "eighteenth day of October in the year of our Lord Christ, 1804."
That doesn't sound like an uncommited deist, not at all.
@MrWhadayaknow I think we get into the danger of confirmation bias here. A theist will look for signs that he was theist, and a deist will look for signs he was a deist.And what you cited is from an official document, for public reading. Look at my first point: he wanted to fit in because of the job.
In his private writings and correspondences he reveals his deist bents and reservations on religion. What we say in private rather than public is more reflective of our true selves, is it not?
@MrWhadayaknow If Jefferson considered himself a Christian, why did he advocate for freedom of religion and free speech? As a proper Christian, should you not observe blasphemy laws? Allowing the populace to practice any sort of religion they choose is reckless disregard of the Christian responsibility of evangelizing your perceived truths. You cannot be okay and say "you believe what you want", because you're allowing people to teach their kids the "wrong" view of life and reality.
@MrWhadayaknow Except god in the Judea-Christian sense makes it impossible for people to choose because of its omniscient attribute. It's like Doctor Manhattan in The Watchmen. If one knows every action that will take place, there is no free will. Not to mention god doesn't like freedom of speech or religion... biblicaly it kills people for dancing; kills people and orders others to kill people for worshiping different gods; It kills children for calling some guy bald. God hates freedom.
@Jonstern1983 God may well know how things will play out given our behaviors and mindset and weaknesses, BUT that doesn't mean that we, acting on our own, making decisions based on our behavior and mindset and weaknesses did not have full FREE WILL in making those choices. Really? you quote a silly film like the Watchmen? LOL! God hates paganism and false gods, but that does NOT mean that he won't leave us to our own device. He will GIVE US UP eventually. YOU are not FIT to DEFINE GOD here!!
@MrWhadayaknow You believe in a talking snake, a talking burning bush, a guy rising from the dead after being nailed to a 2X4 for three days, every genus of animal (except for those who have no nostrils fitting on a boat that is less than a mile squared, a flood that was able to cover the world, and yet completely receded in less than six months, demons causing disease, someone being good who was willing to kill his son because some voice told him to, etc. and you're calling The Watchmen silly?
@MrWhadayaknow Not to mention I was talking about the book, but then you probably didn't realize it was a book first. Also, you're speaking in nonsense, if everything is predetermined according to some divine plan, then there is no room for free will. It's like characters in a book, the author determines what happens to them. If that is the case, then the kidnappers would have killed their victim in Ransom of Red Chief when they discovered that they wouldn't get any money for him.
@MrWhadayaknow Finally everyone has the right to define god in the same way everyone has the right to interpret the story of Atlantis, or Beowulf. It may or may not be real. Though with the lack of evidence, I'd say that all three things are allegories made up by primitive people in order to explain the universe and teach lessons. If I find proof of gods (or your god in particular) I'd be embarrassed as watching your parents dance in public, but I'd admit I was wrong. Thus far no evidence.
@barennis You shouldn't read your own motives into the behavior of others, in doing so you cannot help but see your own reflection rather than the subject you seek to understand.
@barennis So you say. No doubt his behavior in this matter was a precursor of Political Correctness, nothing more. You shouldn't try to read your own motivations into a dead mans behavior. (your argument about fitting in) Actually in doing so you are suggesting that Jefferson was surrounded by Christians, thank you for proving my point. The founding fathers were Christian.
@MrWhadayaknow do you volunteer or do you get paid to be ignorant of American history? or is it that you just haven't been taking your medication to control your delusions??
That is not a accurate quote from Thomas Jeffferson., who was in fact a devout Christian and even went to great lengths to insure that Jesus Christs moral teachig were in line with the nations laws.
Jefferson, like most people at the time, were anti Church of England, not because of God lead it but because the King of England did.
@Yababoos123 Those are exact quotes....look it up. While your at it look up the Jefferson bible. He edited the bible down to about 1/4" thick. There's one in the library of Congress the you can go look at and read.
Yeah, I notice TJ is referring to the Catholic Church and what they have done throughout history and calls it "Christianity" because they are NOT Christians. They claim to be...but they are not. So, when he speaks against Christianity, he should have more accurately pointed them as faults of the Catholics. Or even "nominal" Christian like we are overwhelmed with today.
@marcryan71 They are Christians, Catholicism was the first and largest sect of Christianity. To say they aren't Christian is like saying that Orthodox Jews aren't really Jews.
@Animehound1 - No, the Jews are Jews. I know there is a common misconception that the Catholic church is "Christian". Because they say they are. (Like Obama uses words to say he's a moderate, but he's really a staunch liberal.) Catholics disregard the teachings of Christ and the Bible so blatantly, it's astounding more people don't call that out. Their traditions and practices are steeped in paganism, not the teachings of Christ. Catholic means "universal" but Christ said there is only ONE way.
@marcryan71 Yes and had it not been for the Roman Catholics the religion would have died. This is not a "misconception" Catholicism was the first organized form of Christianity, the rest split from this into what we have today starting with the Protestants. Since they are the first that makes them Christian no matter how much they have bastardized the religion.
@Animehound1 - Error on a few points: 1) Christianity taught by the apostles was the FIRST form of Christianity from the very mouth of Jesus Himself. Catholics were created out of the Romans adopting ideas from Christianity and blending it was pagan rituals. 2) "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" were the words of Christ, Catholics are not responsible...at all, for it's survival today. Just because they are "popular" does not mean they are Biblical.
@marcryan71 Note that word of mouth is not an "Organized" religion its called preaching. And how do you figure that Catholics are not responsible for it being what it is? If it was not for them the religion would never have made it. It was taken in by the most powerful empire in the world at the time and it flourished from there, spreading within the empire and outward. You may not consider them "Christian" but that does not change the fact that through history they have been put at the top.
@Animehound1 - The Catholic Church is not spreading "true and Biblical" Christianity. It is a false religion with the "logo" of Christ. There are no real nutrients in that package. Jesus said His church was to be established and it would never die. His church is not the church of the Pope. To believe that, in all due respect, is to believe the popular lie. -- Unless you are a Catholic or Christian...dude, why do you even care what some guy says on YouTube?
@marcryan71 "The Catholic Church is not spreading "true and Biblical" Christianity. It is a false religion with the "logo" of Christ. There are no real nutrients in that package"
That's obviously true in the sense it is true for all religions, but I'd like to point out that the Catholic Church is the only branch of Christianity that can hold a remotely credible claim to a connection with the original church. If anyone has a claim to being true Christianity - it's them.
@marcryan71 In fact, to even start claiming that their doctrine isn't biblical is laughable - they compiled the bible from sources they agreed with for crying out loud. You simply can't score any points by coming with some revisionist interpretation - with zero connection to the actual early church - and claim it's true in some sense.
Anyway, if it's true that Jesus' church would never die - then it is the Catholic church by necessity as they killed all opposition.
@marcryan71 They are Christians, Catholicism was the first and is the largest sect of Christianity. To say they aren't Christian is like saying that Orthodox Jews aren't really Jews.
@drjackflash The last time I checked a god does not & has not served in any branch of Our Government & the bible is not found anywhere in Our Constitution !
@drjackflash Apparently You're ignorant of Court procedure.
I testified in a Court of Law 4 times in 3 states.
I didn't place my hand on the bible & swear to god.
On each occasion the judge concurred & informed the Court that witnesses don't have to swear to any god & don't have to place their hand on the bible or any religious book.
Our rights are guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution not the bible & was written by the Founders not a god !
"Can the liberties of a nation be sure when we remove their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people, that these liberties are a gift from God?"
@WILLTHEWGMAN dude the guys in the video just said that there was a lot for dishonest people to quote mine and not take into account the fact the Thomas Jefferson was in fact a deist and not a christian. But you could not help yourself could you, you had to defend the "faith" and it did not matter if you lied to do it because nothing is a sin if done in the name of god right.
Christian Principles are found in found in all of Jefferson's beliefs, Desist or not. He did not mark out any "Christian Principle" in his Bible in which the US was founded on. No one has ever claimed that the supernatural parts of Christianity were used in the founding of the US. How does an Atheist justify the notion; that these liberties are a gift from God? If God is only by faith then all you rights to freedoms by birth are only of faith as well! How am I dishonest again?
@WILLTHEWGMAN "How am I dishonest again?" read what you wrote before this and you will find your answers.
In Jefferson's letters and other writings we can see that he did not believe in the christian god and was not vary found of the christian faith. so to quote something from Jefferson where he references a god as if it shows he was christian and the country was built on christian values is dishonest.
are you going to admit to this or dodge the question again?
He had, owned and used a Christian Bible, he simple marked out the sections of all parts containing supernatural aspects. This is called, "The Jefferson Bible", or "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" as it is formally titled, was Thomas Jefferson's effort to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists... Admit to what?
The Funny thing is, at the end of Benjamin Franklin's life (the most celebrated deist in US history class) he began to question whether the merits of deism were worth believing. Also Thomas Jefferson seemed to dislike John Calvin quite a bit. Jefferson spoke on how we have free will and through that we reach what is moral. He disagreed with Total Depravity. However, from what Jefferson has said he speaks as if God is involved (which is not deist at all).
Whether or not Jefferson was responsible for these quotes may be in debate. But they clearly come from time when a more sensible dialogue about religion was possible.
I think that Jeff made a mistake here - I'm pretty sure this is not a Jefferson quote. Perhaps it was wrongly attributed to him, or paraphrasing from a letter between Jefferson and James Smith. I love the AE, but they aren't infallible. Does anybody know if they corrected this mistake?
@Jonstern1983 The very first one. The comparison to Cerberus, ending with the fools/hypocrites line. I looked it up actually, and this is a misrepresentation/compilation of at least three quotes by Jefferson. Oh well, I just hope they corrected the mistake.
founding father are deist not atheist, they believed in a god, but dammed church ,
they sued god a way for protection, peace , and literature and symbols yes we do have "under god" in our constitution but we do not have "under Jesus"
@tranquility4all your right i dunno why i said that, the constitution was made for a government non theocracy run, democracy i guess, what i mean , they used god in literature as a way to have a persuasive argument pathos,
during congress battles or between battles of Europe, i'm sure they did believed in god because it came from puritan the the rationalist so Thomas and Benji were raised by puritan , but they did not believe in church or organized religion
@tranquility4all but at the same time they criticized god, i dunno i hate how people think god is religion... total not..!!! people believed in a higher power before the Jews but back to the subject.. i guess it would be safe to call our founding father rationalist because they were part of that movement
@moneyjr1122 Not all of the framers of the constitution believed in a higher power. Your assertion that all of the framers believed in a higher power is only an opinion. Some of the framers believed in organized religion.
My point is the Constitution was designed to create a separation of state & church to allow all religions to be practiced or for people to reject all religions & deities.
@MrReasonFTW deist believe in a god or self faith could even mean green men created the universe, what they don't believe in is a bible or organized religion simple as that no more no less
Religion can be dangerous... but like Thomas and john Adams both intelligent and opened minded men believed in God.. if they where alive today they would call Jeff a " foolish turd " for not believing in the all mighty creator
Although men like Jefferson and Adams were right to hate some of the religious hypocracy apparent in their day, the notion that science and Western freedom were not derived from Christian principles is simply without historical merit. In America, the ideas and ideals that produced our goverment were derived from Christian legal theory dating back to around 1000 AD!
I think people are confusing something. The Ten commandments influenced American Law, that doesn't necessarily mean we were founded upon Christianity. But why are all those bible verses located in almost every monument in Washington D.C.. These guys are generalizing, because Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, weren't the only founders. But historians have presented letters and documents that show a practice of religion by a majority of the founders, so its up to you.
@XxzeppelinxX Never heard of anyone going to jail for worshipping a different god, carving statues of dieties, saying "God damnit!!", working on Sunday, telling their parents to go fuck themselves, or sleeping with someone else's wife outside their marriage (in some states). I think murder, stealing and bearing false witness (purgery in court basically) are the closest thing to being an influence, but the commandments do respect the right to own slaves :/
@berner True, because there is a great element of free will that goes on in the Old Testament of the Bible. Did the Israelites go and arrest people for such acts, no. But again, I'm not going to say that our Republic came from Old Testament passages because that is absurd. The Old testament only contains monarchies. Which Thomas Aquinas held to be the best form of government. I do think these guys are committing a fallacy.
@asmodeous9 Okay... But let take in a count of the early history of Christianity... Countless numbers of Christians were killed by the Romans... The were fed to lions hung on crosses and any other number of horrific ways to die... Now for one thing I'm not saying its Right for a group of People to go out and kill people in the name God, Jesus or who ever else... Murder is Murder no matter how you try and justify it. But I'm sorry if all you look for is the negative thats all you'll ever see.
@xenex23 It's hard to see past the negative when there is so much there. From the Crusades, to the derailment of science, to the Inquisition, to Pogroms, to giving Hitler a major part of his argument, to the 30 years war, to the genocide of the native Caribbean, to adding to the current AIDS epidemic in Sub-Saharan Africa... there's a lot of negative to Christianity, and let's face it, most of the time it seems to outweigh the positive.
@JMUDoc True. In fact that is the one question I can never get any type of answer from religious people, "What positive things are done in the name of religion that cannot be done for secular reasons?' No one can answer that without either changing the question or mentioning things that can be done for secular reasons (charity work), or mentioning things that have no basis in reality (keeping people out of hell).
@Jonstern1983 Not to mention the positives of christianity aren't positives that require religion. Meaning people give to charity and do good things around the world without christianity. There are no positives that christianity and only christianity can provide.
Its not that Thomas Jefferson didn't consider a Christian... Its that he could see how men used Christianity for their own corrupt ends... And there is no denying that many a very messed up thing has been done in the name of Christ... But you can never say that more wrong has been done in the Christ or Christianity then good... You wanna see some messed up things done in for reasons that had nothing to do with Christianity... look at the history of Russia under Stalin.
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
@xenex23 "...that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw." QUOTE MINING FOOL. Why don't you actually read the whole quote before posting a partial one. Typical Christial LIAR."It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist."
@TheCMWalters Very true... And it is a very sad fact today... that so many people call them selves Christians simply on the belief of Jesus Christ... But they have to live by his teachings as well.
@xenex23 And as for your other "quotes," Jefferson extracted the things he thought Jesus taught correctly. Jefferson believed that Jesus never claimed to be God. He put a compilation of only his moral teachings into a book titled "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth." Next time, read up on a subject and please, don't get your information from God websites.
So it was legal to kill witches.....why? (I can't wait for an atheist to answer me this one)
Will an atheists please answer me why it was legal to kill witches? So it was atheists hanging them? And seeing as how this country wasn't founded on Christianity....so the Christians AREN'T responsible for the black slavery in this country as atheists have claimed for millenia right? Kool. And I can show you contradicting statements from the same people he quoted.
"Will an atheists please answer me why it was legal to kill witches?"
Because nutters use the bible (or the koran) to justify it. Hell, people are still tried as witches in africa and the middle east (especially christian areas of africa).
Besides, people werent tried as witches after the colonies rebelled from Britain.
".so the Christians AREN'T responsible for the black slavery in this country as atheists have claimed for millenia right?"
Actually, it was. They not only used the bible to show that slavery was "moral" (probably because its pretty much the slave owners guide), but also used the justification "we are saving their souls from hell by bringing them to a place we can shove our religion down their throats, they owe us"
The bible has caused more suffering than any other book.
@boonw 14Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him....The slavery you know of, and the slavery of the Bible aren't the same. They were servants. Man created slavery and the Father sats laws to protect them. You do realize the Bible says you won't know what it says....right? That in itself proves it's perfection....you don't see it, nor understand it....but we do
@shadapple Too bad your buddies in the vid didn't get the chance to sit with hitler in an interview before he fulfilled Bible prophecy and ask him not to do it. You do realize that Israel is the only people or nation prophecied out of all, to lose their land and get it back, and the only nation to do so in the history of mankind. Oh wait...self fulfilled...I wonder if hitler realized that? It's you blasphemers that fulfill it. As for your catholic hitler theory...he flew an Indian Swatstika
"Man created slavery and the Father sats laws to protect them"
So your god was so immoral that he said "yeah, its still okay to force another person to work for you in deplorable conditions all day" instead of telling them that it was despicable? Oh, if he really cared, why did he not only say it was okay to beat them, and then say that if that it was only bad if they died in the first day (if thye died a long painful death, it was then OK)
"You do realize the Bible says you won't know what it says....right?"
So why beleive it then? If this book makes a claim, that many others (that there is an invisible all powerful wizard man in the sky who watches everything that everyone does and knows all), and then beleive that this all wise being couldnt even make a morrally sound and unambigous book?
Really, this is sillly. God isnt real, quit wasting your time, and live the best life you can while you're alive.
@boonwExodus21:16And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. Deutoronomy 15:12And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee. 13And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty:
Yes, I can read, but whats your evidence that what it says is true? I could write that I had a fire breathing dragon that shat gold bricks and fed on garbage, but you wouldnt beleive that would you? So why beleive what this book says?
People mark fiction books nonfiction all the time (take a look at phsycics), what makes you think that just because it was done 2000 years ago that its really any different?
@boonw You deny any evidence given to you anyway, so why bother anymore? You're so sure it isn't true, you have proof of that right? What evidence do you have that it isn't? None. But you'll bash it anyway. Watch my vids? There's plenty of "evidence". In fact you are evidence, because you do exactly what it say you will. We all do. This world has become exactly what it says. So prove to me that it isn't true. Surely 2000 pages over 5500 years..you can find something. Watch my vids. Then rebuke
No, I dont. I have yet to see any evidence that there is a god of any kind. For example, if you were to demonstrate to me a miracle, especially invoked through preayer directedc to your god, I would convert.
I started watching one of your vids, but I stopped a little in. All you are doing is taking modern events, then going and finding a very obscure and ambiguous bible verse that you think broadly covers the event.
@boonw You don't deny evidence huh? How about the world full of mockers? How about the Bible being preached in all the world and his words not passing away? How about Christians being killed if we follow him? 50 million sice his crucifixion, 50% of them in the last century alone. how many were killed before him? None. How about going into the sky and space? Reaching the bottom of the ocean? Lemme gues...none of that is good enough for you right? You haven't watched my vids have you?
"How about the Bible being preached in all the world and his words not passing away?"
Atheism and agnosticism is growing extremely fast. The only places that people still take the bible seriously a poor places with low education standards, like africa.
"how many were killed before him? None"
Are you saying nobody was killed in the name of god? If so, have you even read the bible? God orders the needless death of hundreds of thousands of people at a go multiple times.
dude where is my people !!!LOL
casablanca4381 4 days ago
So the US is founded on the love of big bang and his only begotten son gorillawts?
PrinceFelipe 4 days ago
@Foojuice You keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile H.A.K. the CFR and the trilateral commission do their culling of useless eaters. How sadly deluded you steeple are.
youngoldbones 1 month ago
"To slip the surly bonds of earth, . . . and touch the face of God. I suppose language like this in the future will be excised from our history? You atheists impoverish humanity, to it's core. I don't want to live in the sterile, immoral land you are fashioning for our future. You are a hollow empty people, you CAN'T believe so you suppress the truth. Our forefathers wouldn't even recognize the country you are bringing forth in their name.
youngoldbones 2 months ago
@youngoldbones
I cant think of anything less american then the suggestion that you are going to be horribly tortured forever because of something you believe.
The ideals that america was founded on directly contradict the most important thing that the bible teaches.
094250001 2 months ago 3
@youngoldbones
Atheists are trying to impoverish humanity?
So secular charities and organizations like Medecins Sans Frontiers, ACLU, Amnesty, Oxfam Int'l, and Unicef are all trying to destroy humanity? Bitch, they are trying to SAVE humanity. There is no good aspect of religion that cannot be achieved through secular means. Also, Europe is mostly atheist yet they have a higher quality of life than Americans.
Also, demonstrate the truth of your beliefs, rather than just asserting that they are.
foojuice101 1 month ago 2
@foojuice101 Deluded fool, Unicef is working AGAINST the peoples of the third world, it acts to suppress the populations thereof.
youngoldbones 1 month ago
@youngoldbones
Idiot, Unicef is helping third world countries by educating people there on contraceptives, so they don't have a million children and end up not being able to support them. They also help fight for human rights.
You need to do some research before you call other people "fools".
foojuice101 1 month ago
Includes references to "our lord Jesus Christ" most would agree that the evidence is weighted against you.
youngoldbones 4 months ago
@youngoldbones
There are multiple sources of conflicting information and no definitive conclusion.
Logically, as Matt pointed out, when you can see what they said in private compared to what they said in public, it seems quite obvious to me that they were simply being politicians and maintaining a pretense.
AntitheistPOV 2 months ago
@AntitheistPOV I think you should take a visit to the capital, the capital, senate and congress have thousands of images of the ten commandments chisled in stone. So much for the "atheism" of our founding fathers, I pity you.
youngoldbones 2 months ago
@youngoldbones
You realize that the vast majority of the monuments in the capitol building weren't commissioned by any of the founding fathers? The building wasn't even complete until 1811, over 10 years after Washington died.
That aside, you're still conflating the a majority Christian population with the ideals of individuals and the state. Some were Christians, nobody is arguing. Jefferson was a deist and repeatedly, consistently criticized Christianity through his life.
AntitheistPOV 2 months ago
@AntitheistPOV oh you poor deluded dilentante, why don't you educate yourself beyond your own petty prejudices.
youngoldbones 2 months ago
@youngoldbones
At least my "prejudices" don't come with the threat of eternal torture.
However, if you'd like to actually respond with something relevant and offer an argument against anything I just said, I'm waiting.
AntitheistPOV 2 months ago
@youngoldbones
And further aside still, you disgrace the memory and belief of those men by attempting to give any religion a claim on the nation as a whole. These were people that fled England to escape religious persecution and had the courage to create a state where men are free to belief as they choose.
I have no doubt whatsoever that every man who signed the constitution would be thoroughly offended by the attempts by theists to edit, circumvent and dilute that document.
AntitheistPOV 2 months ago
@AntitheistPOV Your compulsion to suppress the truth is the epitome of disgrace. ROFL.
youngoldbones 2 months ago
@youngoldbones
I take that to mean you have no factual, relevant response. Piece of advice for you. If you have nothing relevant to say, say nothing. You've gone from simply being wrong to being wrong and stupid.
"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (i.e. the Book of Revelations), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams."
Thomas Jefferson
AntitheistPOV 2 months ago
@AntitheistPOV You and Christopher Hitchens, he knows the truth now, you will soon enough.
youngoldbones 2 months ago
@youngoldbones
I make state several points on your logic, your terrible arguments and quote Jefferson directly. You degrade the memory of a dead man and threaten me.
It's not so much that you're wrong, it's that you're not even capable of providing a decent argument for why you think you're right. On top of that, you're obviously completely ignorant of the Bible and the religion you claim to follow.
Christianity at its finest.
AntitheistPOV 2 months ago
@AntitheistPOV You people are a joke, take a visit to Washington, and BATHE in the truth of the faith of the forefathers of this nation, the entire idea of select leaders from amongst ourselves was taken from the old testament. Please educate yourself. Instead of being just another ignorant doctrinaire.
youngoldbones 2 months ago
@youngoldbones
Did you mean, "Go and look at the things you've already explained to me are not evidence for what I'm claiming!"?
Select leaders from amongst ourselves, eh? We can add Biblical delegation of authority and European history to the things you're completely ignorant of. This is getting to be quite the list.
Please continue!
AntitheistPOV 2 months ago
@AntitheistPOV Chisled in stone. Did you not know that congress begins every session with a prayer? Please, educate yourself.
youngoldbones 2 months ago
@youngoldbones
I did. Since 1946. Only about a hundred years after the people we're discussing died.
I'm not sure what that has to do with whether or not Jefferson was a Christian? Have you given up on the topic and started making random, irrelevant comments, now?
AntitheistPOV 2 months ago
@AntitheistPOV I've looked into the so called separation of church and state and all the other lies you people have foisted upon a credulous American public. Turns out that our forefathers were for the most part devout believers in God. I'm a bit busy in this season to tangle with the likes of you, perhaps after the New Year when I get back from New York.
youngoldbones 2 months ago
@youngoldbones
Some of them were, some of them weren't. Some of them it's impossible to tell, since there are mixed reports.
Nobody claimed that none of the founders were Christian. I denied your claim that they were ALL Christian.
AntitheistPOV 2 months ago
@Pisces31660 Oh bravo, you must be a true "intellectual", the ad hominem aspersions really clinched your case. When Jefferson writes a personal letter and inc
youngoldbones 4 months ago
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Use your God given intuition: who shows a higher consciousness level? who kills or who respects life?, who steal or who share? who enslave or who frees? who envy or who love? who is selfish or who is selfless? who is materialistic or who is spiritual?. We are due to move to the next consciousness level by rejecting all materialism and selfishness. Those were Jesus teachings, which atheism reject. God will act, and anyone that refuse to move may be expendable. Open your eyes before is too late.
dejesusluisx 5 months ago
So I have to wonder where this idea of founding on christian values came from. The fathers weren't christian but most of the population was and many of the states were founded for religious... lets say counter tyranny. Did the population ever really know that it wasn't a christian nation?
MaestroAlvis 6 months ago
@MaestroAlvis I think it's simply an appeal to majority. The USA is not a Christian nation. It's a nation full of Christians.
L00NGB00W 5 months ago 13
@L00NGB00W- A nation full of Christians that think they win by majority.
Lennon4ever1 3 months ago
@Jonstern1983 What rot! Rofl!
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
Thomas Jefferson, Quote, "I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTER OF JEHOVAH ETERNAL HOSTILITY TO ALL FORMS OF TYRANNY OVER THE MINDS OF MEN."
Hmm, sounds like God held a high place in Jeffersons estimation.
MrWhadayaknow 8 months ago
@MrWhadayaknow Strange that the quotes that were intended as less public writings espoused a more deist bent, while what was said for public dissemination as an administrative official to fit in, he mentions the Abrahamic god. At that time and place, you fit in much better if you claimed to believe in the Christian god.
barennis 7 months ago
@barennis oh riiiight. Why don't you tell us what Jefferson had on his mind. Since you are bent on defending YOUR stance by reading your own perceptions into his actions.
tinyflyonthewall 7 months ago
@tinyflyonthewall That is a tall order for anyone. I am not a qualified historian, and neither is anyone else (but historians, of course). It is not in my interest to "prove" that Jefferson was a mere deist.
It's just my mildly educated opinion based on what I have read and can derive within logical bounds of reason from the writings of a man known for advocating the separation/distinction of church and state.
barennis 7 months ago
@barennis . . . .3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion. These are the great points on which he endeavored to reform the religion of the Jews."
A belief that there is a future state of rewards and punishments (as Jefferson believed) denies the basic premise of Deism -- that the creator does not interfere with the laws of the universe. Jefferson was no deist.
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@barennis "mildly educated" yes, I think that about covers your opinions. Actually the separation of Church and State was meant to protect the Church, it was meant to protect local establishments of religion from federal interference. Jefferson reflected his frequent speaking theme that the government is not to interfere with religion.
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@MrWhadayaknow No need to get catty, now. I'm just saying I have read four books about Jefferson (two about his religious opinions) and I have learned about him for a semester at univ. I can't think of what more I can do to inform myself about Jefferson other than reading and taking classes about Jefferson. If I could summon his spirit I would. I will read David Barton's work but I must say that he seems to have a motive in suggesting Jefferson was Christian (what with him being a minister)
barennis 7 months ago
@barennis How disengenuous, you suggest David Barton has an ulterior motive and you atheists don't? Don't make me laugh. How typical of you to discount solid evidence. Atheists just want to feel that they are fulfilling the vision the founders had for America, when nothing could be FURTHER from the truth.
BTW You're forgetting is that this country was founded in its earliest times by people who were fleeing government persecution due to their religious beliefs. Not the other way around.
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@MrWhadayaknow I did not say that atheists do not have motives to try and prove that Jefferson was critical of religion and possibly only deist. Of course they do. Your rebuttal is appropriate for someone who says "atheists are immune from bias". Everyone is susceptible to confirmation bias and the other pitfalls of discerning a specific answer from a given pool of resources.
Is it really suggestible that Jefferson thought he had the main line to what God "really meant" in your view?
barennis 7 months ago
@barennis Excuse me?
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@barennis But of course this kind of prejudice is quite acceptable in todays climate. Anyone with religious beliefs, oh excuse me CHRISTIAN religious beliefs are marginalized. So much so that any serious scientists with a deep belief in God tends to keep it to himself. Otherwise he would probably never get published or taken seriously by his peers. This atmosphere is creating a type of 'closet Christianity" in the ranks of higher learning and Science. Well done! So much for freedom of expression
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@tinyflyonthewall Not claiming to have the correct answer. I listen to more informed people and try to broaden my opinion based on new information, and attempt my best at ignoring potential interests (because I do not believe in any gods) that would cloud my evaluation. It just seems more likely that since Jefferson expressed criticisms of church culture and proposed separation of C&S, that he was deist.
barennis 7 months ago
@barennis Well, now you know better.
tinyflyonthewall 7 months ago
@barennis Its ridiculous to argue Jeffersons faith in the Abrahamic God. What is important here is that Jefferson was RAISED on Christian concepts and principals, it was these influences throughout his life that brought him to his convictions and influenced his outlook on life and by extension, governmental powers and limitations. And what makes you think this phrase was uttered for public consumption? It was spoken in the midst of his fellow 'deists" LOL!
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@barennis You want a sample of Jeffersons writing do you? Well here you go. You might this intriguing.
The manner in which Jefferson dated an official document. Instead of "in the year of our Lord," Jefferson used the phrase "in the year of our Lord Christ." Historian David Barton has the proof – the original document signed by Jefferson on the "eighteenth day of October in the year of our Lord Christ, 1804."
That doesn't sound like an uncommited deist, not at all.
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@MrWhadayaknow I think we get into the danger of confirmation bias here. A theist will look for signs that he was theist, and a deist will look for signs he was a deist.And what you cited is from an official document, for public reading. Look at my first point: he wanted to fit in because of the job.
In his private writings and correspondences he reveals his deist bents and reservations on religion. What we say in private rather than public is more reflective of our true selves, is it not?
barennis 7 months ago
@barennis Furthermore, Jefferson wrote in a June 26, 1822 letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse:
"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.
1. That there is one only God, and he all perfect.
2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@barennis I think the salient take away here is that he used the phrase in the year of our Lord CHRIST, rather than merely in the year of our lord.
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@MrWhadayaknow If Jefferson considered himself a Christian, why did he advocate for freedom of religion and free speech? As a proper Christian, should you not observe blasphemy laws? Allowing the populace to practice any sort of religion they choose is reckless disregard of the Christian responsibility of evangelizing your perceived truths. You cannot be okay and say "you believe what you want", because you're allowing people to teach their kids the "wrong" view of life and reality.
barennis 7 months ago
@barennis God wants people to have free will to choose. Thomas Jefferson clearly understood this. What is the Conumdrum?
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@MrWhadayaknow Except god in the Judea-Christian sense makes it impossible for people to choose because of its omniscient attribute. It's like Doctor Manhattan in The Watchmen. If one knows every action that will take place, there is no free will. Not to mention god doesn't like freedom of speech or religion... biblicaly it kills people for dancing; kills people and orders others to kill people for worshiping different gods; It kills children for calling some guy bald. God hates freedom.
Jonstern1983 7 months ago
@Jonstern1983 God may well know how things will play out given our behaviors and mindset and weaknesses, BUT that doesn't mean that we, acting on our own, making decisions based on our behavior and mindset and weaknesses did not have full FREE WILL in making those choices. Really? you quote a silly film like the Watchmen? LOL! God hates paganism and false gods, but that does NOT mean that he won't leave us to our own device. He will GIVE US UP eventually. YOU are not FIT to DEFINE GOD here!!
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@MrWhadayaknow You believe in a talking snake, a talking burning bush, a guy rising from the dead after being nailed to a 2X4 for three days, every genus of animal (except for those who have no nostrils fitting on a boat that is less than a mile squared, a flood that was able to cover the world, and yet completely receded in less than six months, demons causing disease, someone being good who was willing to kill his son because some voice told him to, etc. and you're calling The Watchmen silly?
Jonstern1983 7 months ago
@MrWhadayaknow Not to mention I was talking about the book, but then you probably didn't realize it was a book first. Also, you're speaking in nonsense, if everything is predetermined according to some divine plan, then there is no room for free will. It's like characters in a book, the author determines what happens to them. If that is the case, then the kidnappers would have killed their victim in Ransom of Red Chief when they discovered that they wouldn't get any money for him.
Jonstern1983 7 months ago
@MrWhadayaknow Finally everyone has the right to define god in the same way everyone has the right to interpret the story of Atlantis, or Beowulf. It may or may not be real. Though with the lack of evidence, I'd say that all three things are allegories made up by primitive people in order to explain the universe and teach lessons. If I find proof of gods (or your god in particular) I'd be embarrassed as watching your parents dance in public, but I'd admit I was wrong. Thus far no evidence.
Jonstern1983 7 months ago
@barennis You shouldn't read your own motives into the behavior of others, in doing so you cannot help but see your own reflection rather than the subject you seek to understand.
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@barennis So you say. No doubt his behavior in this matter was a precursor of Political Correctness, nothing more. You shouldn't try to read your own motivations into a dead mans behavior. (your argument about fitting in) Actually in doing so you are suggesting that Jefferson was surrounded by Christians, thank you for proving my point. The founding fathers were Christian.
MrWhadayaknow 7 months ago
@MrWhadayaknow do you volunteer or do you get paid to be ignorant of American history? or is it that you just haven't been taking your medication to control your delusions??
Pisces31660 4 months ago
"Thank God"? How about 'Thank Them'! Kudos to the Founding Fathers.
Brenda2OOO 9 months ago 15
@Brenda2OOO Too bad some of the founding fathers were greedy assholes.
sk8tafrnk 4 months ago
I had no idea Thomas Jefferson was such a bro and badass. D:
GreenGearMood 9 months ago 2
for some reason, the word 'capricious' sounds a lot better coming from Christopher Hitchens than Jeff Dee...
calthopian 9 months ago
That is not a accurate quote from Thomas Jeffferson., who was in fact a devout Christian and even went to great lengths to insure that Jesus Christs moral teachig were in line with the nations laws.
Jefferson, like most people at the time, were anti Church of England, not because of God lead it but because the King of England did.
Yababoos123 11 months ago
@Yababoos123 Those are exact quotes....look it up. While your at it look up the Jefferson bible. He edited the bible down to about 1/4" thick. There's one in the library of Congress the you can go look at and read.
lindo745 9 months ago
Tommy was a smart man who just happened to own slaves. Not criticizing just pointing this out.
TheDano1947 11 months ago
I wonder how this country would be if all the founding fathers were purely Christian... A scary thought...
TearsOfWar1 1 year ago
I totally agree with the title of this video... I love how you say "Thank God!" XD
TearsOfWar1 1 year ago
Jefferson must be rolling in his grave... Figuratively of course.
Seshat666 1 year ago
Yeah, I notice TJ is referring to the Catholic Church and what they have done throughout history and calls it "Christianity" because they are NOT Christians. They claim to be...but they are not. So, when he speaks against Christianity, he should have more accurately pointed them as faults of the Catholics. Or even "nominal" Christian like we are overwhelmed with today.
marcryan71 1 year ago
@marcryan71 They are Christians, Catholicism was the first and largest sect of Christianity. To say they aren't Christian is like saying that Orthodox Jews aren't really Jews.
Animehound1 1 year ago
@Animehound1 - No, the Jews are Jews. I know there is a common misconception that the Catholic church is "Christian". Because they say they are. (Like Obama uses words to say he's a moderate, but he's really a staunch liberal.) Catholics disregard the teachings of Christ and the Bible so blatantly, it's astounding more people don't call that out. Their traditions and practices are steeped in paganism, not the teachings of Christ. Catholic means "universal" but Christ said there is only ONE way.
marcryan71 1 year ago
@marcryan71 Yes and had it not been for the Roman Catholics the religion would have died. This is not a "misconception" Catholicism was the first organized form of Christianity, the rest split from this into what we have today starting with the Protestants. Since they are the first that makes them Christian no matter how much they have bastardized the religion.
Animehound1 1 year ago
@Animehound1 - Error on a few points: 1) Christianity taught by the apostles was the FIRST form of Christianity from the very mouth of Jesus Himself. Catholics were created out of the Romans adopting ideas from Christianity and blending it was pagan rituals. 2) "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" were the words of Christ, Catholics are not responsible...at all, for it's survival today. Just because they are "popular" does not mean they are Biblical.
marcryan71 1 year ago
@marcryan71 Note that word of mouth is not an "Organized" religion its called preaching. And how do you figure that Catholics are not responsible for it being what it is? If it was not for them the religion would never have made it. It was taken in by the most powerful empire in the world at the time and it flourished from there, spreading within the empire and outward. You may not consider them "Christian" but that does not change the fact that through history they have been put at the top.
Animehound1 1 year ago
@Animehound1 - The Catholic Church is not spreading "true and Biblical" Christianity. It is a false religion with the "logo" of Christ. There are no real nutrients in that package. Jesus said His church was to be established and it would never die. His church is not the church of the Pope. To believe that, in all due respect, is to believe the popular lie. -- Unless you are a Catholic or Christian...dude, why do you even care what some guy says on YouTube?
marcryan71 1 year ago
@marcryan71 For the sake of debate and conversation, that's what forums are for.
Animehound1 1 year ago
@marcryan71 "The Catholic Church is not spreading "true and Biblical" Christianity. It is a false religion with the "logo" of Christ. There are no real nutrients in that package"
That's obviously true in the sense it is true for all religions, but I'd like to point out that the Catholic Church is the only branch of Christianity that can hold a remotely credible claim to a connection with the original church. If anyone has a claim to being true Christianity - it's them.
Gnomefro 10 months ago
@marcryan71 In fact, to even start claiming that their doctrine isn't biblical is laughable - they compiled the bible from sources they agreed with for crying out loud. You simply can't score any points by coming with some revisionist interpretation - with zero connection to the actual early church - and claim it's true in some sense.
Anyway, if it's true that Jesus' church would never die - then it is the Catholic church by necessity as they killed all opposition.
Gnomefro 10 months ago
@marcryan71
who cares that catholics pervert the original teachings? the bible is fictional anyway. It's all the same rubbish.
mcpencil 11 months ago
@marcryan71 They are Christians, Catholicism was the first and is the largest sect of Christianity. To say they aren't Christian is like saying that Orthodox Jews aren't really Jews.
Animehound1 1 year ago
Thomas Jefferson is one of my favorite historical figure.
Balstar5283 1 year ago
Commandment #1; Worship only Yahweh
Amendment #1; Worship whomever you please
The US Constitution is in direct conflict with Judeo-Christian doctrine.
cablepanos 1 year ago
"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible." George Washington
drjackflash 1 year ago
@drjackflash The last time I checked a god does not & has not served in any branch of Our Government & the bible is not found anywhere in Our Constitution !
tranquility4all 1 year ago
@tranquility4all Last time I checked witnesses in the court of law placed their hand on the Bible and swore to tell the truth so help my God.
drjackflash 1 year ago
@drjackflash Apparently You're ignorant of Court procedure.
I testified in a Court of Law 4 times in 3 states.
I didn't place my hand on the bible & swear to god.
On each occasion the judge concurred & informed the Court that witnesses don't have to swear to any god & don't have to place their hand on the bible or any religious book.
Our rights are guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution not the bible & was written by the Founders not a god !
tranquility4all 1 year ago
@tranquility4all Where do you live, heathen land?
drjackflash 1 year ago
@drjackflash I have lived my entire life in the U.S.A.
States of Florida, New York & Oregon. Where do You live ?
Crackerville ? or in the land of Religious Ignorance & Bigotry ?
tranquility4all 1 year ago
@tranquility4all Nice. Ignorance is bliss hey?
drjackflash 1 year ago
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tranquility4all 1 year ago
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tranquility4all 1 year ago
@drjackflash I hope You're Happy !
tranquility4all 1 year ago
The central governing principle this nation was founded on is CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED. This concept can be found nowhere in The Bible.
DandAinTac 1 year ago 2
"Can the liberties of a nation be sure when we remove their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people, that these liberties are a gift from God?"
~Thomas Jefferson
WILLTHEWGMAN 1 year ago
@WILLTHEWGMAN Thomas Jefferson was not a christian. He was a deist. Jefferson is not referencing the christian god.
xoy71 1 year ago
@WILLTHEWGMAN dude the guys in the video just said that there was a lot for dishonest people to quote mine and not take into account the fact the Thomas Jefferson was in fact a deist and not a christian. But you could not help yourself could you, you had to defend the "faith" and it did not matter if you lied to do it because nothing is a sin if done in the name of god right.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
@fireflygirl246
Christian Principles are found in found in all of Jefferson's beliefs, Desist or not. He did not mark out any "Christian Principle" in his Bible in which the US was founded on. No one has ever claimed that the supernatural parts of Christianity were used in the founding of the US. How does an Atheist justify the notion; that these liberties are a gift from God? If God is only by faith then all you rights to freedoms by birth are only of faith as well! How am I dishonest again?
WILLTHEWGMAN 1 year ago
@WILLTHEWGMAN "How am I dishonest again?" read what you wrote before this and you will find your answers.
In Jefferson's letters and other writings we can see that he did not believe in the christian god and was not vary found of the christian faith. so to quote something from Jefferson where he references a god as if it shows he was christian and the country was built on christian values is dishonest.
are you going to admit to this or dodge the question again?
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
@fireflygirl246
He had, owned and used a Christian Bible, he simple marked out the sections of all parts containing supernatural aspects. This is called, "The Jefferson Bible", or "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" as it is formally titled, was Thomas Jefferson's effort to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists... Admit to what?
WILLTHEWGMAN 1 year ago
The Funny thing is, at the end of Benjamin Franklin's life (the most celebrated deist in US history class) he began to question whether the merits of deism were worth believing. Also Thomas Jefferson seemed to dislike John Calvin quite a bit. Jefferson spoke on how we have free will and through that we reach what is moral. He disagreed with Total Depravity. However, from what Jefferson has said he speaks as if God is involved (which is not deist at all).
XxzeppelinxX 1 year ago
Whether or not Jefferson was responsible for these quotes may be in debate. But they clearly come from time when a more sensible dialogue about religion was possible.
hagenar 1 year ago
I think that Jeff made a mistake here - I'm pretty sure this is not a Jefferson quote. Perhaps it was wrongly attributed to him, or paraphrasing from a letter between Jefferson and James Smith. I love the AE, but they aren't infallible. Does anybody know if they corrected this mistake?
stovetop32 1 year ago
@stovetop32 Which quote?
Jonstern1983 1 year ago
@Jonstern1983 The very first one. The comparison to Cerberus, ending with the fools/hypocrites line. I looked it up actually, and this is a misrepresentation/compilation of at least three quotes by Jefferson. Oh well, I just hope they corrected the mistake.
stovetop32 1 year ago
@stovetop32 Thank you.
Jonstern1983 1 year ago
Ha, not killing is a Christian principle. Ha.
StL33T 1 year ago
founding father are deist not atheist, they believed in a god, but dammed church ,
they sued god a way for protection, peace , and literature and symbols yes we do have "under god" in our constitution but we do not have "under Jesus"
moneyjr1122 1 year ago
@moneyjr1122 We don't have any mention of god in the Constitution.
Under god was added to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950's.
tranquility4all 1 year ago
@tranquility4all your right i dunno why i said that, the constitution was made for a government non theocracy run, democracy i guess, what i mean , they used god in literature as a way to have a persuasive argument pathos,
during congress battles or between battles of Europe, i'm sure they did believed in god because it came from puritan the the rationalist so Thomas and Benji were raised by puritan , but they did not believe in church or organized religion
moneyjr1122 1 year ago
@tranquility4all but at the same time they criticized god, i dunno i hate how people think god is religion... total not..!!! people believed in a higher power before the Jews but back to the subject.. i guess it would be safe to call our founding father rationalist because they were part of that movement
moneyjr1122 1 year ago
@moneyjr1122 Not all of the framers of the constitution believed in a higher power. Your assertion that all of the framers believed in a higher power is only an opinion. Some of the framers believed in organized religion.
My point is the Constitution was designed to create a separation of state & church to allow all religions to be practiced or for people to reject all religions & deities.
tranquility4all 1 year ago
@moneyjr1122 No a Deist is someone who thinks a God created it all but that God is now gone or complacent.
MrReasonFTW 1 year ago
@MrReasonFTW somewhat like that
gphhawkins 1 year ago
@MrReasonFTW deist believe in a god or self faith could even mean green men created the universe, what they don't believe in is a bible or organized religion simple as that no more no less
moneyjr1122 1 year ago
@moneyjr1122 thanks for clearing that up for me :)
MrReasonFTW 1 year ago
@MrReasonFTW no problem you were not totaly wrong
moneyjr1122 1 year ago
Religion can be dangerous... but like Thomas and john Adams both intelligent and opened minded men believed in God.. if they where alive today they would call Jeff a " foolish turd " for not believing in the all mighty creator
IlC4RL0SIl 1 year ago
Thomas Jefferson would smack Jeff in the face for not believing in GOD.. Then Jeff would call Thomas a fool
IlC4RL0SIl 1 year ago
@IlC4RL0SIl Do You have ANY Evidence that Thomas Jefferson ever slapped Anyone who did not believe in an almighty creator ?
Many People were Executed for Questioning the existence of an almighty creator by religious people who believed in an almighty creator !
YES, Many people who were religious & believed in an almighty creator were VERY DANGEROUS & EVIL !
tranquility4all 1 year ago
these guys need to find something better to do
xenex23 1 year ago
@xenex23 they would say the same thing about people who spend time worshiping an imaginary super being. see how it achieves nothing??
scottpastry 1 year ago
@scottpastry maybe You should stop worshiping an imaginary super beings if you feel that way.
xenex23 1 year ago
@xenex23 lol i worship no beings.... but feel free to keep trolling
scottpastry 1 year ago
I have read these quotes. There are many , many others to support these views of our founding fathers.
jmwinter1 1 year ago
Great video!! Please send me the sources. This is being shared! I am Volunteerism anarcho-capitalist and am glad to see this!
LuckyShitZu 1 year ago
Although men like Jefferson and Adams were right to hate some of the religious hypocracy apparent in their day, the notion that science and Western freedom were not derived from Christian principles is simply without historical merit. In America, the ideas and ideals that produced our goverment were derived from Christian legal theory dating back to around 1000 AD!
pbrucetube 1 year ago
@pbrucetube um, how about no
kaga13 1 year ago 15
This has been flagged as spam show
Commandment #1; Worship only Yahweh
Amendment #1; Worship whomever you want
America is in direct dispute with Judeo-Christian values.
cablepanos 1 year ago 3
I think people are confusing something. The Ten commandments influenced American Law, that doesn't necessarily mean we were founded upon Christianity. But why are all those bible verses located in almost every monument in Washington D.C.. These guys are generalizing, because Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, weren't the only founders. But historians have presented letters and documents that show a practice of religion by a majority of the founders, so its up to you.
XxzeppelinxX 1 year ago
@XxzeppelinxX Never heard of anyone going to jail for worshipping a different god, carving statues of dieties, saying "God damnit!!", working on Sunday, telling their parents to go fuck themselves, or sleeping with someone else's wife outside their marriage (in some states). I think murder, stealing and bearing false witness (purgery in court basically) are the closest thing to being an influence, but the commandments do respect the right to own slaves :/
berner 1 year ago 3
@berner True, because there is a great element of free will that goes on in the Old Testament of the Bible. Did the Israelites go and arrest people for such acts, no. But again, I'm not going to say that our Republic came from Old Testament passages because that is absurd. The Old testament only contains monarchies. Which Thomas Aquinas held to be the best form of government. I do think these guys are committing a fallacy.
XxzeppelinxX 5 months ago
ok I am now starting a band called the sad infinite dudes
xavtron 1 year ago
@asmodeous9 Okay... But let take in a count of the early history of Christianity... Countless numbers of Christians were killed by the Romans... The were fed to lions hung on crosses and any other number of horrific ways to die... Now for one thing I'm not saying its Right for a group of People to go out and kill people in the name God, Jesus or who ever else... Murder is Murder no matter how you try and justify it. But I'm sorry if all you look for is the negative thats all you'll ever see.
xenex23 1 year ago
@xenex23 It's hard to see past the negative when there is so much there. From the Crusades, to the derailment of science, to the Inquisition, to Pogroms, to giving Hitler a major part of his argument, to the 30 years war, to the genocide of the native Caribbean, to adding to the current AIDS epidemic in Sub-Saharan Africa... there's a lot of negative to Christianity, and let's face it, most of the time it seems to outweigh the positive.
Jonstern1983 1 year ago 29
@Jonstern1983 I meant the native people of the Caribbean.
Jonstern1983 1 year ago
@Jonstern1983
It's not just that - the positives of religion don't even REQUIRE religion :)
JMUDoc 7 months ago
@JMUDoc True. In fact that is the one question I can never get any type of answer from religious people, "What positive things are done in the name of religion that cannot be done for secular reasons?' No one can answer that without either changing the question or mentioning things that can be done for secular reasons (charity work), or mentioning things that have no basis in reality (keeping people out of hell).
Jonstern1983 7 months ago
@Jonstern1983
... and on the flip side, there are so many deleterious effects of religion that are ENDEMIC to religion.
Also, citing "the promise of eternal life" as a real and tangible benefit is completely daft, I agree :D
JMUDoc 7 months ago
@Jonstern1983 Not to mention the positives of christianity aren't positives that require religion. Meaning people give to charity and do good things around the world without christianity. There are no positives that christianity and only christianity can provide.
youbetzler 4 months ago
Its not that Thomas Jefferson didn't consider a Christian... Its that he could see how men used Christianity for their own corrupt ends... And there is no denying that many a very messed up thing has been done in the name of Christ... But you can never say that more wrong has been done in the Christ or Christianity then good... You wanna see some messed up things done in for reasons that had nothing to do with Christianity... look at the history of Russia under Stalin.
xenex23 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
xenex23 1 year ago
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
xenex23 1 year ago
@xenex23 "...that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw." QUOTE MINING FOOL. Why don't you actually read the whole quote before posting a partial one. Typical Christial LIAR."It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist."
TheCMWalters 1 year ago
@TheCMWalters Very true... And it is a very sad fact today... that so many people call them selves Christians simply on the belief of Jesus Christ... But they have to live by his teachings as well.
xenex23 1 year ago
@xenex23 And as for your other "quotes," Jefferson extracted the things he thought Jesus taught correctly. Jefferson believed that Jesus never claimed to be God. He put a compilation of only his moral teachings into a book titled "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth." Next time, read up on a subject and please, don't get your information from God websites.
TheCMWalters 1 year ago
@xenex23 wow, this video was simple to debunk
danielrrjd 1 year ago
FFFTW=Founding Fathers For The Win!
trevorzlee 1 year ago
Yep, Tom Jefferson said "roguery."
instereovideos 1 year ago
So it was legal to kill witches.....why? (I can't wait for an atheist to answer me this one)
Will an atheists please answer me why it was legal to kill witches? So it was atheists hanging them? And seeing as how this country wasn't founded on Christianity....so the Christians AREN'T responsible for the black slavery in this country as atheists have claimed for millenia right? Kool. And I can show you contradicting statements from the same people he quoted.
shadapple 1 year ago
@shadapple
"Will an atheists please answer me why it was legal to kill witches?"
Because nutters use the bible (or the koran) to justify it. Hell, people are still tried as witches in africa and the middle east (especially christian areas of africa).
Besides, people werent tried as witches after the colonies rebelled from Britain.
boonw 1 year ago 2
@shadapple
".so the Christians AREN'T responsible for the black slavery in this country as atheists have claimed for millenia right?"
Actually, it was. They not only used the bible to show that slavery was "moral" (probably because its pretty much the slave owners guide), but also used the justification "we are saving their souls from hell by bringing them to a place we can shove our religion down their throats, they owe us"
The bible has caused more suffering than any other book.
boonw 1 year ago
@boonw 14Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him....The slavery you know of, and the slavery of the Bible aren't the same. They were servants. Man created slavery and the Father sats laws to protect them. You do realize the Bible says you won't know what it says....right? That in itself proves it's perfection....you don't see it, nor understand it....but we do
shadapple 1 year ago
@shadapple Too bad your buddies in the vid didn't get the chance to sit with hitler in an interview before he fulfilled Bible prophecy and ask him not to do it. You do realize that Israel is the only people or nation prophecied out of all, to lose their land and get it back, and the only nation to do so in the history of mankind. Oh wait...self fulfilled...I wonder if hitler realized that? It's you blasphemers that fulfill it. As for your catholic hitler theory...he flew an Indian Swatstika
shadapple 1 year ago
@shadapple
"Man created slavery and the Father sats laws to protect them"
So your god was so immoral that he said "yeah, its still okay to force another person to work for you in deplorable conditions all day" instead of telling them that it was despicable? Oh, if he really cared, why did he not only say it was okay to beat them, and then say that if that it was only bad if they died in the first day (if thye died a long painful death, it was then OK)
boonw 1 year ago
@shadapple
"You do realize the Bible says you won't know what it says....right?"
So why beleive it then? If this book makes a claim, that many others (that there is an invisible all powerful wizard man in the sky who watches everything that everyone does and knows all), and then beleive that this all wise being couldnt even make a morrally sound and unambigous book?
Really, this is sillly. God isnt real, quit wasting your time, and live the best life you can while you're alive.
boonw 1 year ago
@boonwExodus 21:16And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. Deutoronomy 15:12And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee. 13And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty:
shadapple 1 year ago
@shadapple
"Exodus 21:16"
Yes, I can read, but whats your evidence that what it says is true? I could write that I had a fire breathing dragon that shat gold bricks and fed on garbage, but you wouldnt beleive that would you? So why beleive what this book says?
People mark fiction books nonfiction all the time (take a look at phsycics), what makes you think that just because it was done 2000 years ago that its really any different?
boonw 1 year ago
@boonw You deny any evidence given to you anyway, so why bother anymore? You're so sure it isn't true, you have proof of that right? What evidence do you have that it isn't? None. But you'll bash it anyway. Watch my vids? There's plenty of "evidence". In fact you are evidence, because you do exactly what it say you will. We all do. This world has become exactly what it says. So prove to me that it isn't true. Surely 2000 pages over 5500 years..you can find something. Watch my vids. Then rebuke
shadapple 1 year ago
@shadapple
"You deny any evidence given to you anyway"
No, I dont. I have yet to see any evidence that there is a god of any kind. For example, if you were to demonstrate to me a miracle, especially invoked through preayer directedc to your god, I would convert.
I started watching one of your vids, but I stopped a little in. All you are doing is taking modern events, then going and finding a very obscure and ambiguous bible verse that you think broadly covers the event.
boonw 1 year ago
@boonw You don't deny evidence huh? How about the world full of mockers? How about the Bible being preached in all the world and his words not passing away? How about Christians being killed if we follow him? 50 million sice his crucifixion, 50% of them in the last century alone. how many were killed before him? None. How about going into the sky and space? Reaching the bottom of the ocean? Lemme gues...none of that is good enough for you right? You haven't watched my vids have you?
shadapple 1 year ago
@shadapple
"How about the Bible being preached in all the world and his words not passing away?"
Atheism and agnosticism is growing extremely fast. The only places that people still take the bible seriously a poor places with low education standards, like africa.
"how many were killed before him? None"
Are you saying nobody was killed in the name of god? If so, have you even read the bible? God orders the needless death of hundreds of thousands of people at a go multiple times.
boonw 1 year ago