KDJ(Sheik) vs M2K(Marth) 2.3

[cross25011990]

Korean dj..i just love the way u play sheik!

[PrinceShion]

I think it's funny how after 11 months i started getting the most replies just recently, lol. Maybe it's the new systems since my comment is the first rated now. Either way, I know, and have known what a sticky/moonwalk is for a while now, I was just confused at how it was executed, to be honest, especially considering the characteristics of Marth's moonwalk, and how it should be nonexistant.

[JejuneJesuit]

@PrinceShion why should it be nonexistent?

the way moonwalking works:

your character has a certain amount of momentum (forwards or backwards) at any time

by doing the moonwalk motion, half circle back during your initial dash, you can "overcome" the forward movement of your initial dash forward by holding back without starting a dash the other way. with a lot of characters, this normally doesn't do much

[JejuneJesuit]

@JejuneJesuit when you combine the moonwalk motion with another source of momentum, like walking, the two momenta add up in a way, and you end up moving backwards because the momentum from walking gets combined with your moonwalk momentum.

this is a game mechanic; it works with every single character

[JejuneJesuit]

@JejuneJesuit oh, and 1:33 wasn't a "moonwalk" per se

mew2king wavedashed back (which gave him backwards momentum), started an initial dash forward (which canceled out the momentum from the backwards wavedash, which is why he ended up not going anywhere)

but he held forward out of the initial dash for too long, so it started marth in his running animation. he had to get out of his full-run animation before the fsmash, which is why it looks like he kind of stumbled.

the more you know! =)

[SuperLearningCenter]

are they wavedashing to grab or dashing then grabing?

[crossfaderage]

3:07 A mixture of Marth's UpB and Sheiks BThrow...interesting sound that makes.

[wiitubeaccount]

m2k used to be best fox right? or at least the most techinical

[PrinceShion]

1:33 WHAT THE HELL?!

[Dooky916]

@PrinceShion sticky walk

[PrinceShion]

@Dooky916 I always thought Marth's Sticky/moonwalk was almost nonexistant, lol

[SuperLearningCenter]

@PrinceShion well whats it good for? it looked like just a wierd time wasting motion thing

[SuperLearningCenter]

@Dooky916 whats it good for

[Dooky916]

@SuperLearningCenter pausing for a mind game or to avoid something if you feel like moonwalking, not really too important

[Mofat]

@PrinceShion moonwalk

[jhskater411]

@PrinceShion pretty sure that was a sticky walk..... u can do it with i think all characters. I know how to do it on command but kinda hard to explain it : D i do it with CF after i start moonwalk i dash in opposite direction and hold diagnal dwn to the way im running makes u run in like super slow-mo.

[Thejackalofnights]

M2k shouldn't have jumped one his first stock right before he died. You always side-b as close as possible then jump and follow up with an up-b since his recovery is mainly verticle. : /

[ThaIrishMafia]

M2K might know a bit more about this game than you do

just saying

this was back when he was the most technical player in the world, he had a reason for everything he did

though I do see what you're saying it was an unwise descision

[wigglezwow]

he got hit far to the left he had no choice otherwise he wouldve been too low

[jhskater411]

@Thejackalofnights sometimes with a gimper like sheik i change it up and use the jump to gain height on her so i can fair when she goes for the gimp. Whole thing with melee is you gotta switch it up and surprise them sumtimes. Yes i agree saving the jump is the smarter move but sumtimes u can catch your opponent off guard and turn it into a gimp for u. Only been playing for like 8 months played 15th in all of Socal but still learning so im not saying this out of me being a experieced player

[UltimateMach5]

1:31

[SoFSnipeR]

LOL @ someone saying wavedash is easier with Marth than with Sheik.

Sheik has probably the easiest wavedash to use in the game, I find it much easier even than Luigi's

[UltimateMach5]

its preference. some people might be faster. some might be slower. but if you're really an overall good player then wavedash is easy with everyone.

[mvpaintballer]

it's pretty much the same for everyone with the exception of a few characters like bowser

[turazrok]

Manondorf, Peach, Captain Falcon. Worthless for the most part.

[Ghettoflame1]

Yeah, kinda' mind-blowing when you first watch it.

[Ghettoflame1]

2:37 was completely unexpected. Probably a quick reaction.

[bassk1000o]

nah thats not so unexpected at all..

[bdomike]

I think he was planning to dtilt, and the crouch cancel was just a result of it. Plus KDJ was at 0% so it makes sense to try and crouchcancel against a marth at such high percent to exchange hits.

[xsmashx100]

awesome match

[walid252]

3:07 amazing grab

[charliemehrer]

1:33

Wtf? M2k slow walk?

[lingm228]

old post, but that looked slick as fuck

[xXNickPXx]

The last hit was amazing! Dash cancel, predict spotdodge, fsmash... nicely done.

[OneBigMyoma]

Can someone explain 0:27 to 0:29?

[sleepyx7]

shiek's dash attack doesn't hit on the startup frames, only later into it. m2k was doing utilts hoping to catch shiek during the startup I guess with utilt even after she landed. I'm gonna guess m2k didn't want to get grabbed so he dashed back to avoid the grab, which also evaded the dash attack. Shiek only has a few advances really.

[ShiftingShadows28]

1:20

m2k casually walks up to KDJ and grabs lol

[IFeelSoAlive3]

3:07

Love that sound

[RRRRussia]

lol @ 1:33

[flamedragon3088]

has KDJ and Isai ever ahd a match against one another?

[alcheato]

I'm sure they have since they were both top 8 MLG players. The only set I've heard of them playing them Isai though. Not sure what characters they used.

[AceDudeyeah]

1:34 was epic MINDGAMES!

I'm calling that the failed mindgame. B/c it looks like you failed but the name also makes it a mindgame. "If he failed...then why'd it...whaa?"

[nKhid]

There's no real counterpick to Marth...

[Njzfinest]

you mean, to Mew2king*

[DirEnRefused]

@nKhid Lol Sheik vs Marth is fucking horrible for Marth.

[glitch417]

Sheik is a counterpick to Marth.. Stfu n00bs?

[REDRAGON12345]

Actually at a high level, Sheik vs Marth is pretty even.

Ask the pros, they will agree with me.

I remember someone said that at a pro level that Falcon is a harder matchup for Marth then Sheik.

Truth.

[Vyse0wnz]

pretty sure M2K says sheik rapes marth.

it's really not even at all if the sheik knows what he's doing. marth has a chance because he does a great job at controlling the middle of the stage, but sheik recovers too well and edge guards too well, and her CC and dash attack just destroy marth

[Hornilope]

hmm all high level players ive ever seen/heard talk about the matchup has said sheik counters marth

[aliensk8r233]

If you haven't seen the new tier list, it is marth and fox tied for first.

M2K says that sheik should be at the top, not marth and fox.

[tehdewrag]

new tier list sucks

[aliensk8r233]

Uh. It doesn't suck at all.

[sleepyx7]

m2k always said and believes that shiek is the best player in the game, I guess if it wasn't everyone using fox and falco it would be very true, since she does destroy many characters with so much ease with her cg.

[deBarnik]

Sheik's not the best for her CG... she's still the best in PAL version, where she got no CG at all...

[flamedragon3088]

two words to y this statement is true....needle rape!

[xAfterDawnx]

Don't listen to REDRAGON, he's a scrub and doesn't know what he's talking about.

[betterthanbonds9]

it's either a 60:40 or 55:45

it's marth's worse matchup by far

[daddyshere1]

Wtf? Falcon vs. Marth is a 40:60 favoring marth, A good marth can destroy falcon.

Sheik destroys marth, and Vyse described that one pretty well.

[RunsWithScissors61]

I actually thought it was 60:40 Falcon.

They both counter each other offstage (Falcon offstage is LOL, Marth offstage can be light-shield-hogged and then can be hit with a ledgehopped knee if he goes to the stage), and they both get lots of hits off of a combo.

I think the difference is that Falcon's normal tactics that don't work as well on other top tiers, such as dashdance camping, work fine against Marth.

[sleepyx7]

it's pretty much agreed by the guys I play with including mango that falcon owns marth on the stage.

[Shintroy]

I got mindgamed at 1:36-1:37

M

[hellotheresirdude]

lol @ m2k actually using a at the end to get back up on the stage

[pezai]

maybe im jsut rooting for kdj, but something about how m2k plays with marth pisses me off

[byakuya32]

umm his too good? KDJ beat him though. I'd say KDJ was just a little better than M2k at the time.

[FastlikeHurricane]

Mew2king plays nothing like ken, he uses some of ken's moves but his style is more fast paced

[BlackVice80]

he doesnt CG thats a big diff

[sleepyx7]

stick to solitare.

[shadowraven94]

they both made the same mistake whilst recovering though, almost every time, they always jump before using side-b to recover, against anyone who has a projectile that stuns or can chase you off the stage easily thats very bad... always use side-b to the stage then jump to the ledge without up-b, its faster and harder to stop

[shadowraven94]

they call m2k the robot because hes super-duper-uber technical probably the most technical player in the smash community. He only really uses his technical skill to play, his mind games are no where near the same as kens, ken always made m2k mess up and waste ass his technical skill with his mindgames, in my opinion Mind games > technical skill but a good balance of both is needed

[aliensk8r233]

Your completely wrong if you think m2k gets by on technical skill. Ken has said that m2k is now a better marth than he is. SilentWolf is known for having crazy technical skill, but he is not one of the best in the world. If you really think the best marth right now, m2k, relies on technical skill alone, that is just sad.

[jxw6762]

@FastlikeHurricane thats only cuz its 2k7. but agreed, ken was better at reading while m2k has automatic combos

[machinelold]

holy shit first kill was a fast attack i never get that so fast

[crimson35124]

all i was trying to say was that that sheik has a 40:60 counter; ICs being the 60. there are probably more hidden in lower tiers but i dont know them. they same way oceanwaves83 thought that only marth fox falco and falcon are good against sheik; and neither of them are higher then 50:50 with her to my knowledge.

[sleepyx7]

regardless of all this, this matchup has been debated over and over again, there is no clear cut, so I'll just say someone outplayed another.

[BinxyBrown]

At very high levels of play Sheik dominates every character except Fox Marth and Falco, she goes fairly even with those 3, she dominates ICs as well, I'm an Ice Climber main and I've seen every Chu match online, the character he loses most to besides Marth and Peach is Sheik, also there is a vid somewhere of PC Chris vs Cort's ICs showing how bad the match up can be, 1 chain throw for 50% does not make up for the speed and priority, and range differences.

[AznLanceLord]

sheik only has trouble against fox and falco. (it is arguable the falco sheik matchup is even though). She does kinda dominate marth tho.

[lovingmonkay]

ever wonder why ken was known as the shiek slayer?

azen and m2k are copys of kens style

[oceanwaves83]

on finaly destination, sheik usually owns marth. in fact, there are no matchups in the game that give sheik a real challenge. Only exceptionally good marth, fox, falco, and falcon players stand a chance against a sheik like KDJ

[crimson35124]

nice joke, ICs counter sheik like nothing

[oceanwaves83]

you're right, i sometimes forget about ICs counter

[cheesecakes4eva]

so basically what you are saying is... since sheik is a top tier character only other top tier characters match up against them... thank you captain obvious

[decoyoctopus87]

wave dash is infinitely easier with someone like marth than with sheik.

[MuraRengan]

It's about the same for both.

[crimson35124]

sheik counters marth =p its simple physics; when miyamoto had this game created he probably said "make it so ninjas own samurais" cuz in japanese history the ninjas were more specially trained then the samurai

[AsianPride228]

ROFL nicely done

[Alextzta3]

0:45

gg

[jngshin]

kdj does like the same 3 patterns with sheik

f-air, to jab

spams grab into automatic combo

does down-air to up-air combo to kill

very blunt

[quasiscared]

Seems to work for him

[crimson35124]

1:40 LOL he gets hit by both hits of the D-smash

[PeachyFoam]

Hey that's true O.O weird.

[ffccyuke31]

And a perfect 4 hit combo as well

[CoraxTheCold]

this is a perfect example of how I would be so much better if i had learned to wavedash, but with a month till brawl its hardly worth it now

[marksun123]

dude the wait for brawl is so gai, it got delayed 2 times

[PeachyFoam]

Takes like an hour at most to learn wavedash, while multitasking. At first you think you don't got it then you accidentally start using it in gameplay when you're warmed up...you'll see :]

As for Brawl, STOP DELAYING OR I WILL BOYCOTT ALL STORES WHICH WILL SELL IT IN THE FUTURE UNTIL IT IS OUT! That means no business for Toys R' Us until I get my wii-playability.

[LirokMurasame]

love marth at 2:15, if only it did something

[ZoMfGxiTzxSurMa]

nice m2k

[tyothai]

best comment ever.

[HopesLastStand]

sheiks so hot chick i wan bone her in all 3 holes

[yohhaku1]

its a guy....

[ZeroMelfice]

Lol. Sheik is a girl, play the Zelda games.

[yohhaku1]

it says in the guide for the zelda game (im not sure which on though) that shiek is a guy, idk i could be wrong

[ZeroMelfice]

Ocarina Of Time's Handbook says nothing about Sheik, the strategy guide mentions the word "She" a lot in reference to Sheik. It'd make sense, after all Link never changed into a female in his transformations.

[LirokMurasame]

storyline wise, the spirit of sheik came from a guy, just zelda uses it so technically sheik still counts as a girl

[AnubisCidolfas]

What are you talking about? Zelda used magic to disguise herself as a man and called herself Sheik as a tribute to the Sheikah.

Zelda is a girl. Sheik is Zelda. Therefore, Sheik is a girl.

As long as she doesn't grow a pair of balls, which I HIGHLY doubt she would, she's still a girl.

[marksun123]

lol

[FrostByte00]

Most sheik mains don't have balls, so it makes perfect sence

[kelvin989]

es tan importante saber quien es sheik?

[kelvin989]

Is so important to know who is a sheik?

[AnubisCidolfas]

Apparently

[moozles]

magic can do weird things...

[ffgamer22]

sheik doesn't have tits.

[blurssbm]

helllaaaa good match

[CervPurp63]

OH MY GOD!!!! M2K jus did the ultamite mind game at 1:33!!! If that was me who got Fsmashed, i would have to put my controller down.

[dontyrant]

it's not that special, u obviously dont know much, I could have donet that to u. It would be foolish to put ur controller down for that, kdj missed a tech.... oooooooo

[CervPurp63]

as a result of not knowing much, i have to give credit to those who know more that me (i.e. Mew2King). i know you dont think its that special, but that sticky walk was sick...

[oceanwaves83]

it was a decent fake out dontyrant, don't assume that someone is a noob just because they give a professional gamer props. i'd probably 2 stock your ass with 5 different characters.

[dontyrant]

haha, u also cant say u will beat sum1 wit out even seeing em play, all i said was it waz it isnt the best mindgame,and it wuld be retarted to put ur controller down, not taking anything away from m2k or kdj, they are da best 4 a reason.

[RaikoumaruKazuma]

1:33 was very nice, but I wonder why KDJ just stood there sleeping? Still, it was a very nice match.

[cu00x19]

it's a mind game. some people just stand next 2 u when ur down and wait to shield grab, but if you just "sleep", they get a brain fart.

[quesote20]

if he had rolled anyway, m2k would have Fsmashed him, it was a difficult decision.

[Buourn]

m2k sticky walked

awesome mindgame

[cus04]

I like how KDJ's Sheik is so aggressive

[Salivorin]

KDJ was simply out-played here. Good Sh!t by M2K.

[JesiahTEG]

He dashed forward, then Wavedashed backwards, then before the Wavedash backwards fully ended, he tapped the control stick so he dashed forwards, but not far. It's called a sticky walk. I don't think he meant to do it.

[ShinKazenoKizzu]

i see. i always wondered how to do that. thanx

[Sveet]

i disagree. i think m2k meant perfectly well to do it, it is a pretty good trick.

[falco2350]

1:33 M2K's like "get up!"

[BDAOutlaw]

OMG he 1:33 looked So WICKED Son..........can samus do moon walk :( it would be so sexy

[1337sagemoon]

1:33 wasnt a moon walk it was a dash out of a backward wavedash. it happens sometimes and looks weird. kinda looks like a mistake IMO but it turned out well.

[CodaBear2]

Looks like after he does that backwards WD he tries to run forward

[m4dm4n135]

i don't think that kdj's sheik needs more Dsmashes. it just loss the match, thats all.

[SinjihnSmith]

Not to contradict the sheik player, but according to Drephen, needs more Dsmash

[kkslider2130]

try doing something easy like spelling: butt* right before you challenge m2k/kdj

[BrotherOfMetal2]

Obviously he's being sarcastic.

[chocobo321]

1:33 - SKILLS?!?!?!?

[goldenmonkey198]

0:54...ouch thats a slap to the face right there

[dragar99]

plz this is childs play

[goldenmonkey198]

lol what?

[dragar99]

i could kick both there buts

[Pieater2o]

no u couldnt

[DoctorKimchi]

Don't lie. Lying is bad.

[itsdragon]

Its even the little things that M2K's does is teh sexah, like 1:47

[GeometricalCows]

I <3 M2K

[Coodeee]

M2K's marth is bomb

[bloteshame]

lol @ m2k's perfect waveland fast fall ledge grabs. his marth is on a whole new level.

[Rurounikeitaro]

I'm glad someone noticed that insane shit. Seeing it in real life made me go "WTF is that shit!?" cause I've never seen anyone else do it casually like that with Marth let alone any character.

[chocobo321]

i saw it first! :D

[CodaBear2]

Omg your so dumb I keep seeing you and you say the samething YOUR GAY STOP BEING GAY