Four Sources on Messer Combat

[elgostine]

looks very good. though i cant help but feel the way your recieving the strikes wouldnt be the best for the edge. after a couple of exchanges like them youd see a near saw toothed edge. particularly those static upper blocks. 

[DrummerBren13]

Awesome video! Very well-informed demonstrations.

[TheTravelingbard]

this is really great work guys this makes for an excellent reference for a short story I'm writing, the protagonist will be using a Messer :)

[Hiketon]

Cool Video, where did you purchase the swords from?

[Gonnakillyou]

Haha, isn't that music from Stronghold 2? :) Nice.

[gre8]

@Gonnakillyou Actually its from Medieval Total War II

[xtcarnage15586]

Katana < This

[mailmanofdeth]

it seems that European martial arts doesn't get the credit it deserves, everyone only cares about Asian styles,

[ChishioAme]

@mailmanofdeth In most cases, you'd be correct, sadly. I'm unashamed to be a student of Bei Shaolin, but I also have a great interest in the messer, the longsword to some degree, and the Russian shashka, though I've found almost NO sources on the last one. More than credit, WMA doesn't really get the respect it deserves and I can only blame Hollywood for portraying it as two people banging their swords together with as much grace as a bull in a china shop.

[Ranziel1]

@KissakiSan I see your point. I guess presenting European martial arts to the yet uneducated masses in a more appealing manner would only do good for the HEMA, as more followers equals quicker revitalization. I guess you're right, it's just annoying that it has to be advertised like that.

[Ranziel1]

@KissakiSan Japanese, Chinese and others practice martial arts in national clothing. If others can't look past leggings of traditional European costumes, well... I guess they're just immature, so to hell with their opinions anyway.

[manga12]

well its the way that the traditional clothing is used only in festivals, and by reenactors, or people that like to provoke a reaction by say wearing a huge codpiece or stockings too sizes too small.

though i think some of the cloths from europ are interesting lederhosen for example, and those skirt things the greeks wear, as well as the baggy pants worn in greek dress dont look so manly but it is and has been for many centuries.

[ruebuscm]

Yowch! I don't know anything about messerfechten, but should the blades make that sort of perpendicular edge on edge contact? Makes me cringe a little!

[ewbecht]

Nice music choice.

[grailchaser]

Its refreshing to see someone get this right for a change.

Most of the supposed disarms and binds I've seen on Youtube fail because of poor timing and a misunderstanding of Talhoffer's technique. Well done guys!

[ChishioAme]

Excellent video! I've been mostly a Japanese/Chinese swordsman, but I've been wanting to get into medieval sword techniques and considered the longsword, but I prefer one handed swords, so it's best to play to my strengths and this made me really, really want to study the messer.

[jazzyslip]

Very interesting video! Excellent job! I just have a question about the grabs (such as the one at 0:21): isn't the sword supposed to be slightly more behind you? It seems to me that the blade is very close to your side. I dont mean to criticise: I am not versed in thise fighting techincs, this is just a curious question...

[Treifla]

so much edge on edge sword play makes me cry a little inside.

but i guess the way the Messer fit into society, they weren't too worried about preserving the blade

[Treifla]

Katana

^ i just opened the pandora's box of youtube sword videos, prepare to have your comment section hijacked by a bunch of thirteen year old anime tards

[LuciusTheFair]

I know this video was made a year ago and you've made more since then, but my own personal suggestion is to stick with theme music like that towards the end of this video, the MTW2 menu song. I think its quiet foreboding mood fits perfectly with the Medieval drawings, the cold clash of metal and the execution of brutal violence.

It really does send chills down my spine. Only thing that would make this better is if you demonstrated in costume.

[ranpleasant]

Overall I like this. However you have some serious edge-hacks in here. I wonder what damage was suffer by your blunts at 1.53, with thin sharp blades that would probably result in deep nicks that can't be filed out.

[Chihab2112]

Hi how long and how heavy are the "Messers" used in this Video?

[meversbergii]

@Chihab2112

I've used their messers before; I think somewhere around 1.5 pounds is an accurate guess.

[CenrionPrime]

voll lustig die haben damals so geschrieben wie unsere nicht ganz so gebildeten 5 jaehrigen reden, sehr gute arbeit dieses video viele sachen kannte ich schon aber so manches auch nicht

[purrepu]

Fantastic work! :D

[valentinsebastian]

sehr schön gemacht!

[mysterg]

This is FASCINATING; I've purchased a Grosse Messer recently and have some practice with iaido and some Japanese fencing in the past. This video is very clear and concise; thanks for the hard work:)

[Schmitti1982]

fantastic video, but can you answer me a question? i wanna know why they was fight with one hand on back ?!

[eddiedaskull]

Good question.From my limited understanding this is a hacking chopping weapon and could easily hack though an arm

Two is balance and they don't need to block with the off hand however they still bring out the off hand when the timing is right for them

There is a lot of foot work and waist movement and blending with this style and the off hand unless is holding a shield ,buckler or other weapon really would often be in the way

[UnclePutte]

I'd like to add a little detail my cheater's conscience thought of first - who'd want to advertise the fact that they're holding a dagger or a cocked flintlock in the other hand? That is, assuming it's not a formal duel in question, but rather a streetfight, a robbery or a downright murder attempt in question.

[meversbergii]

@UnclePutte

Could very well have happened.

M.

[bananabread119]

@Schmitti1982

Think about it! They don't want to get there other arm chopped off.

[brampa]

@Schmitti1982 Simply to put it out of harms way.

[Olwe1992]

very nice work! the slowmotion makes things really clear :D

(and cool Medieval Total War 2 music ofcourse ^^)

*****

[Alquanole]

Very nice job.

LOL at 5:00 that's so similar to the ikkio technique from Aikido. So much for those advocating the "implicit superiority" of eastern martial arts.

[animematt]

One thing I have noticed with these is that they always have you verse the same weapon.

I have never seen a polearm vs longsword, are messer vs spear or anything.

How useful would these me on say, a battlefield?

[Raposamandinga]

@animematt Actually in many of the old german and italian fetchbuch there is almost always some exemple of techniques against polearms, unarmed or dagger against sword, or improvised weapons. The reason why there is not much on this subject is because once mastered the principles you'll be able to apply and modify techniques according to the situation. Bye.

[TRACEUR6]

i like the one where he tosses the sword away hehe  enimy must stand like "ehh wtf?"

[cooks2006]

my fav

[cerkuenik]

great work!

I love messer/arming sword, i wish there were more manuals about it.

[jackatalon]

exelant

[Arnisboy]

Excellent research and nice execution. It's really great to see the actual techniques from the manuscripts in action.

I'm interested in European messer techniques in particular, since I see a lot of similarities (technically and conceptually) between it and Philippine arnis/escrima, especially in the emphasis on hitting the attacker's wrist and "snaking" in the free hand. Great work!

[Snerbinator]

@Arnisboy

The Messer is a heavier blade than most european swords and is made for those strikes.

The heavier blade lives up to its cleaver nature and there in lies its ability for shorter heavy strikes to break bones easier. Especially when true timing of the hands and feet occurs. (which takes some practice) The "Snaking" i think you are referring to is a moulinet , you kind find more of those in saber and cutlass especially the naval manuals.

[Sermaelgrim]

As always, stellar work. It really makes me wish that the English had written down anything about their falchion tradition.

[LordEinar]

You're looking at it ;)

M.

[animematt]

I noticed that all these seem to be counters to the over head slash. What about thrusts, down to up slashes, etc.

[MEMAG]

The cut from above is the most common type of attack with the messer. 4:22 4:35 and 4:48 show counters to thrusts, at least two of which could also have been performed against cuts from below.

[Kunstdesfechtens]

Also remember that rising cuts often leave the head exposed, and are riskier than cuts from above. They are also relatively easy to defend against on average and are slower as they work against gravity rather than WITH it, which a downward cut does. Rising cuts are more often done from a quick disengage after initial blade contact like in the technique called "Hendetrucken" by Liechtenauer. Very few techniques begin with a rising cut from wide range, since it can get you killed quite easily! :)

[SirOwenCurunir]

Awesome jobs guys!!

I was wondering were you got your falchion/messers? I've been looking for a good one and haven't found any. :)

[MEMAG]

Thanks! We had them custom made from aluminum by Valentine Armouries, who unfortunately don't make them anymore. You can find similar ones online though, if you search hard enough.

[FURIEREPAZZO]

@SirOwenCurunir I have a good messer (steel)  from a Czech medieval armoury, if you want i can give you web address... contact me with a private message, i won't do public advertising :)

[roeyrboat]

Great stuff - referencing the period illustrations and then framing following with modern action interpretation. I was waiting for the young lady's hand to fly off in the 4th exchange (no, not really, but you mirrored so well for the first ones, my anticipation was there) :) I hope to apply some of these techniques to my English closehilt -- the grapplings reminded me a lot of Silver's approaches to close fight.

Thanks, obviously a lot of work went into the filming, et al

-Steven Roe

[antonsaidmeatloaf]

....total war 2 soundtrack?

Good work, also.

[88Grin]

Awesome video.

4:54 was hilarious

[RelativelyBest]

"No sword for you!" XD

[evilfuzzydoom]

Was going to say the same thing- awesome!

[UlfBjorn]

Great job guys!

(this is Rob from Selohaar)

[MEMAG]

Thank you Rob!

[SamGCampbell]

Medieval 2 Total War background music, full of win :D

[Leondrian]

Thanks again Cory for sharing. Great one. Like that you used helmets.

/Robert

[MEMAG]

Thanks Robert!

[animematt]

haha. I love the one where he grabs the opponents blade and throws it away.

These also seem like they could be useful for other single edged, shorter but wide blades. Maybe even machetes, or large bowies?

[LordEinar]

If you learn to use the messer, you learn to use practically all similarly sized edged weapons. This goes for machetes and regular cruciform swords as well.

[RelativelyBest]

Presumably sabers/hangers are well suited for this too?

[LordEinar]

I would be tempted to say that some techniques would work, but the curvature of the blade and the lack of a nagel would be a problem. There are sources on the saber and hanger, I would cross-consult with them.

Also, even though I "reply" to your comment, it still appears to me as if we were writing new comments. Weird.

M.

[RelativelyBest]

Well, shorter infantry sabers and hangers don't necessarily have a lot of curvature. That's more found on cavalry weapons as I understand it. Some cutlasses kinda looked like messers, even.

I'm not sure I see why the lack of a nagel would be troublesome, what with the same going for most other swords. Care to elaborate?

As for the reply thing, Youtube kinda does that sometimes. Not sure why.

[LordEinar]

True enough on the saber bit.

I've found that several messer techniques require the nagel to protect the primary knuckles on the fighting hand; without it, the opponents edge easily slides into the hand. I suppose any form of outside protection would work, though.

M.

[RelativelyBest]

In that case, sabers are ideal. Most of them tend to have guards protecting the back of the hand and the knuckles. Actually, some moves I've seen relies on deflecting the opponent's blade over the guard.

[TeutonicWulfKnight]

Great to see, like it very much, thx.

Adiuvare, sanare, defendere!!!!!

[LordEinar]

Best one so far, me thinks!

M.

[VegaEtereo]

My favorite is the last source. Someone died behind the bushes at 4:54? :P

[chreberle]

Hey Guys,

you're GREAT! I'm very impressed how good you are - and your video shows everyone who thinks, good martial arts was only developed in Asia, that he's wrong.

Continue your good work.

Greetings form Germany.

[MEMAG]

Danke schön!

[Djemps]

Go Betsy!!!!

[johnmeadowcourt]

nice video. a pity you didn`t add some pieces from leckuchner.

[MEMAG]

We wanted to show these "other sources" here separately in their entirety. Lecküchner is treated elsewhere ;)

[emu4286]

Great video, I'm glad there's so much material on Messer fighting, as I've recently developed an appreciation for it. It's light, controllable and great for use with grappling techniques, and I'm willing to bet that it can shear off heads and limbs with ease.

[MEMAG]

Thank you. The messer really is an enjoyable weapon to work with.

[SAsgarters]

Very nice.

4:54 Now that's a nasty way to disarm your opponent. ;)

[MEMAG]

Thanks!

Betsy received a bruise on her hand from that one when the cross hit it...