I couldn't really care any less for religion honestly. All I know is, if there truly is a god, I'd have many questions for them as to why they can do all of this but not prevent some of the horrible tragedies brought upon our world. I get tired of hearing religious fools telling me "You're following Satan by asking this and that."
Don't put a bible or anything to my face as an excuse, show me some true answers for once.
God is Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent, meaning that He can do aaanything and is Ultimately Good. Yet the questions are asked in a way that the answer is bound to create a contradiction.
Omnipotent BUT malevolent? Omnibenevolent BUT impotent? Then it is not God we're talking about anymore. How about defining that concept first?
Logic deals in words. It consists of defining terms, putting these together to form premises, and combining premises to extract inferences from them. So a logical argument will go wherever motives take us. If we wish to reach a conclusion then we need only define our terms appropriately and select the appropriate premises.
That is why arguments between different people who have different motives will be endless and futile ;)
I think a far more interesting question was put forth by Stephen Colbert who asked, "Can God build a yacht so big, even he cannot fill it with bitches?"
This is true, but I fail to see where you are going with it.
Just because there are shades of grey in between the two points, does not mean that the points of white and black do not exist. Epicurus is questioning god's ability to prevent or willingness to allow evil. So, why did he not prevent the holocaust, which was unquestionable evil?
Based on his actions and his commands, no, it would not be considered evil. However, when judged by any rational human being, it cannot be seen as anything but.
Returning to my original question, where did you intend to go with your observation that lack of good is not equivalent to evil?
That is indeed why Epicurus used the term Ataraxia; When we do not suffer pain, we are no longer in need of pleasure, and we enter a state of 'perfect mental peace'.
I once presented this arguement in debate class but with omniscience added in which made it more complicated. when I found our it had already been presented I jizzed myself a little.
Evil does not exist and hate only exists because people believe in evil. Please stop calling and thinking of things that are bad as "evil". It doesn't exist. I really wish that this thought comes through to as many people as possible. I don't want to see more unnecessary hate and suffering in the world.
@WuNdAfRiEnD thats pretty flimsy logic... How can you automatically assume that there is a direct correlation with God and Love?... You bring up several scientific ideals, which within its source, clash with the general idea of monotheism...
@xfunnyx15 if u did google it you didnt even open yours eyes. it was the first one.. and second..and third. etc just google "Epicurus Quote" it should be the first one.
@HerrJamie@HerrJamie wait a sec... do we talk about the same quote? i mean the one about "does evil exist". try it with youtube: "Albert Einstein evil"
@WuNdAfRiEnD All you've done is simply that god cannot be omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent, thus raising the question of why we should even bother calling him god.
By the way you just created a tautology infested with logical fallacies. Thank you for your dumb assumption, and by giving us some obscured alternate definitions.
@kisskisskiss121212 i guess then evil does not exist bechsoe god is omnipresent. aka, present everywhere. allso lack of good is not evil bechose while action can be void of good, it allso is not neccesarily evil. like scratching your butt when no one is around. its not evil or good its completly neautral. evil and good are like minerals, there can be both present at the same time. some deposids have it more good then evil, others have more evil then good.
Hey, once you can formulate a sentence and take a class on philosophy or SOMETHING you can respond to me, but till then don't respond. You are a waste of time.
@WuNdAfRiEnD Evil is a perception of humans. Evil does not really exist. Evil is used to describe things that are disagreeable to an extreme sense. Much like god, evil does not exist.
@bananabread119 well, firstly, i have the moral argument which goes: 1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist. 2. Objective moral values do exist 3. Therefore, God exists. secondly i have other arguments which imply a moral God, yet, im perfectly fine grounding my concept of a moral God in this argument, you have any thoughts on it?
@atbigdog24002 How do you know what God's morals are? For all you know, he could be evil and we are continuously violating his moral values. I've always noticed that God's morals reflect the morals of the believer. A few hundred years ago, God supposedly approved of slavery. Now he doesn't. Coincidence? I think not.
This and the Euthyphro dilemma is more than enough proof that the omni-benevolent omnipotent God cannot exist, and thus all religions in the world are bullshit, except maybe Buddhism but they're hardly a religion.
LOL how do you know if God is morally evil & will choose to burn you in hell forever when you die...just to see the look on your face?
That's where you end up. No observation you make about God could be ruled out to be in the class of divinely commanded paths to greater goods.
You only assume he is good by adhering to your subjective sense of "good" & pair that up with circular logic of defining God as good because he is by definition.
Epicurus' riddle only seems to be a 'win' if you're one-sided in your reading and research. For instance, you have to remember that the theology that Epicurus dealt with was neither Jewish theology (which Epicurus would know nothing about) not Christian theology (which was not yet in existence). I know, it hurts to think; but believe me, it's worth it.
@AgApE010Since Epicurus lived until 270BCE he would have known about the Abrahamic God of the Bible but it can apply to and god or gods that are considered all powerful. If they cannot stop evil from happening then they aren't all powerful and if they aren't all powerful then why call them god?
Epicurus did not know about the God of Israel. The only times Greeks really became aware of the Judeo-Christian religion was after Christ when many Greeks were converting to Christianity.
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The problem with Epicurus' riddle is that it is very shallow in that it does not take into consideration things like God's justice, decrees, the doctrine of sin, etc. Because of this, it ends up creating a false-dilemma. Epicurus' argument would only apply within a VERY narrow theological scope.
@AgApE010 I didn't say the judeo-christian god. I said that Abrahamic God. The Jewsih people were around at the time and the Greeks would have know about them. The question was direscted at the "preachers" (I know they weren't called that) of the Jewish faith of the time. It still raises the dilema that if God were all powerful and chooses not to stop evil then he is malevolent (mean). I don't think that people would want to serve/obey a mean God, do you?
The Judeo-Christian God = Abrahamic God. Please do not try to play a theology scholar unless you've taken courses or read works on the topic or else you'll just embarrass yourself.
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I see you tend to mindlessly repeat yourself. Let's put a stop to that: since you're making the claim that Epicurus was informed about Jewish Theology and that he directed his quote at them as well, provide evidence for these claims. No whining, no nothing. Just present the evidence if you can.
@AgApE010 The Abrahamic God also includes the God of the muslims, that's the difference. And since Christians didn't exist at the time the Judeo-christian God is a misnomer.
I know that you won't do it but look up Epicurus on Google and you will see the origin of the riddle and how he asked it to the Jewish theologins. All it takes is a little effort on your part to understand that you don't know everything that you think you do.
When you ask someone to provide evidence for their claims and they tell you "just Google it," it's a pretty good indicator they don't know what they're talking about.
No it doesn't. I already explained in detail how it is that Epicurus provides a false dilemma when his argument is applied to Judeo-Christian Theology. Selective reading and avoiding responses that rip your argument to shreds seem to be your game. So how about you just walk and let someone else reply rather than you littering the comment thread? I can't stand it when people argue with religious zeal about something they don't even understand.
@AgApE010 It applies to ANY GOD that claims to be all powerful, that includes the judeo-christian God. If such a God is all powerful then that God should be able to stop evil and if it can't then it's not all powerful, if it can but isn't willing then it's mean, if it can and is willing then why is there evil? If it can't and isn't willing then why is it called a God at all? That applies to ANY GOD. Do you understand now or do I need to take it to a moronic level for you to understand.
Keep plugging your fingers into your ears. I already explained that the riddle, when applied to Jewish/Christian theism, creates a false dilemma because it does not take into consideration God's justice, man's sin, man's condemnation before God, sanctification, etc. Epicurus knew nothing about these things, and it is unfair to Epicurus himself to shoehorn his otherwise brilliant argument into a theology where it does not apply and that it did not even intend to answer.
i wonder if epicurus ever thought that God might have a reason to allow the existence of evil? no the logical problem of evil was defeated a while back, epicurus' questions do not disprove God.
@atbigdog24002 The logical problem of evil? If God were all powerful then he could stop evil. If he chooses not to then he is mean. If he can't then he isn't all powerful. Do you serve a mean god?
@lautz73 correct, that is the logical problem of evil, the problem w/ arguing from the logical problem of evil is that the burden of proof is too heavy for you to provide reasonable evidence that: If God were all powerful then he could stop evil. The truth is, there could be any number of reasons God, even being all powerful, would allow evil.
@atbigdog24002 It's obvious that if God were all powerful that he could stop evil. If he can't stop evil then he isn't all powerful. If he is able but unwilling to stop evil then he is malevolent (mean). Now answer the question, do you serve a mean God? If the answer is no then the Abrahamic God (the Jewsih, Christian, and Mulsim God) isn't the God you should worship. If you want to worship a mean God then by all means continue to worship him.
@lautz73 It is possible that God has morally permissible reasons to allow evil, even though he is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, therefore your premise that: "If he is able but unwilling to stop evil then he is malevolent (mean)." doesn't hold. Now this is the logical version of the argument against god from evil, if this were instead some different formulation of the argument from evil, then we would be having a very different, less one-sided conversation.
@atbigdog24002 You mean the same morals that allowed the Israelites to murder 10s of thounsands of people, many inocent women and children. That allowed the Israelites to rape virgins. The same morals that allowed countless attrocities in his name? If those are the morals your refering to then the world would be better off without the morals of such a God. I have better morals than that and I have no God.
@lautz73 again, we are moving away from the logical problem of evil, i never defended the concept of god as seen in the christian bible, therefore, it is obvious that you are attacking straw men, yet i am prepared to defend the concept of god put forth by the bible, so my question would be, what examples are you referring to? i shall do my best to provide reasons to explain away misconceptions about them. we have moved completely away from epicurus' logical problem of evil for what reason idk
@0HollyHood0 It disproves the christian god and any other "all good, all knowing, all powerful" gods. the "why call him god" is saying that if this being exists and is neither able nor willing then he doesn't fit the defenition of "god".
@0HollyHood0 It asks the question of why does god allow evil. If he can't defeat evil then he isnt all powerful. If he can but chooses not to then he is mean. If he is able and willing then why does evil exist? If he can't and won't then he isn't worthy of being called a god. Simple straight forward question that can be asked of any god that people claim is all powerful.
@TheJbach If there is free will then God isn't all knowing like religion teaches. If he is all knowing then he knows our choices and has decided our punishment before we are even born. If he doesn't know our choices until we make them then he isn't all knowing. It's either free will or all knowing. Which do you believe?
@AwkwardArmadillo But he knows how our life will go, if he has to filter out people then he's not omnipotent and thus not all knowing or all powerful.
@AwkwardArmadillo I submit to you that if god is all knowing then freewill doesn't exist. If he's all knowing then he knows the choices that we are going to make and the puncihment for those choices before we are even born. "Freewill" then becomes fate. If he doesn't know the choices that we are going to make then he is not all knowing. If he is all powerful then he could override our freewill and make us serve him. If he can't do that then he isn't all powerful.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
@expressssssssssss First of all, we deserve whatever suffering we get. We're the ones who hated Him, rejected Him, and butchered His son alive in one of the worst imaginable deaths. It's because we are so easily fooled by Satan that we go through any suffering at all. God brings those who have faith in Him through their suffering. Also, good can come out of bad. You don't have to love God to know that.
@daviddet - "we deserve whatever suffering we get"?????
Why do Christians always sound like battered women making excuses for their tormentor, or like captives displaying kiss-ass "Stockholm syndrome" towards their abusers?
@mercifulkyle Assuming there is a God, you placing your self-imposed limitations on him/her/it does not make you automatically correct, paarticularly concerning your last 4 statements.
@sphinxrising58 My limitations as you put it, are simply logic, and I think my last 4 statements make a lot of sense, but considering you say otherwise, can you correct me then.
Also lets not forget that on individual levels we are all capable of both good or evil acts doesnt matter if you are a jew or nazi or from any faith. Every day we choose whether we steal, backstab someone to get ahead, lie to someone, cheat on someone we love etc. We can all do good or we can harm others to get ahead in life. I think the root of evil is greed and the huge disparity of wealth in this world shows that. Id say that greed is directly tied to wars, hatred and human exploitation.
I want to clarify that I'm not being religious. I felt that there is a logical fallacy in this so called argument. Hitler was evil but I am referring to the fact there is some degree of good and evil in all of us. Genocide isnt the only kind of evil. Ppl are dieing due to poverty in this world while some few wealthy groups want to remain filthy rich and in control. Its a world with HAVES vs. HAVE NOTS. Human greed is the greatest evil. It causes wars, racism, nationalism human exploitation...
There is a possibility that God is able to prevent evil but unwilling to INTERFERE..This "riddle" does not take into account the fact that good/evil may be a choice that each individual is responsible for. I think if GOD steps into simply STOP evil it would defeat the purpose of giving his creations the ability to choose. The fact that God does not interfere by no means proves that he is unable to do so. One possibility is that he could be testing us to see which of us are agressors and evil.
@as04qg Well what does this test do for the victims of the evil committed by others? I mean what about say the Jews during the holocaust? Hitlers evil, Hitlers sins afflicted millions of innocent people who were simply victims of Hitlers "test". so what i get is in order to test one man your god would condemn millions to suffer and die, as Epicurus would say, then he is malevolent.
You seem to think that I believe in God... I don't. I'm just saying. The whole "life is a test" thing is total shite because God, being God, would already know the answer.
@Kelarre653 How about this then? God doesn't test you to see what you would do in a certain situation. He knows what will happen. He tests you so that the result may happen, and so that you may grow in your faith with your acknowledgment of the result. Ex: My dog died and I was sad, but looking back I realized that God used my dog's death to bring me closer to Him. Why didn't he just automatically draw me closer to Him to make me love Him more? If that happens, it's not really love, is it?
@Kelarre653 Looking at it this way, you realize that He's not going to abolish all evil in the world right now, because He's still giving more and more people reason to love Him. Eventually He will destroy all evil and remove it from existence. He's just getting more people to love Him. It's like this: if I beat you with a baseball bat until I finally get you to say that you want to be friends with me, it's different than if I got to know you, talked to you, and learned about you, isn't it?
@Kelarre653 He's not insecure. He wants our faith because He loves us. It's a much better way for Him to show His love by making things happen in our lives that give us reason to love Him, rather than just making us love Him.
Then why doesn't he prevent the premature deaths, miscarriages, etc that aren't done by human hands? Why is it that some people are rich and comfortable wasting millions whilst others are starving in complete poverty? Does your god have favourites?
@daviddet which God are you talking about, God of the old testament or Jesus the son of God, if you're talking about the son of God i'm with you, He is loving but the father wasnt loving in the old testament, quit being bias thou shalt not lie
@zipitup75 Let me put in one of my favourite quotes from the Bible here. Luke 19, 27, New Testament. Jesus, in the flesh: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here, and slay them in front of me!"
@zipitup75 The God of the old testament and the God of the new testament are the same. The only reason He seemed harsher was because we didn't have Christ to mediate for us in the old testament.
@daviddet so basically you're saying God the father is a bully and a tyrant, and Jesus have to stand up to the father and stop Him from punishing people for nonsense, what i believe is: God is a judge and not a loving father, and is incapable of true forgiveness, He alway have to kill something in order to pardon any sin I.E animal sacrifice, Jesus on the other hand is loving and compassionate and He forgives without asking to kill something why cant people see the difference
if god has prior knowledge that certain souls are doomed irespective of the way they exercise their free will, then why make them in the first place? He is being cruel.
If he doesn't know which way they will exercise their free will, then he is not all knowing. wilwil
God's power and his work is through us. Through mankind. Through the ones who made evil exist in this world.
People usually focus on God's actions, and how he does them, they never actually focus on God himself. We do not know who or what God is, we can't just jump to conclusions like that.
There is nothing evil nor good. All is as just physical, in their state as nature has made. It is 'we' who make things good or bad. Eg. your business deal could be good for u but bad for your competitors. You are responsible for what you do. No one else. Its you who do it and face it. But your attitude should be neither happy nor sad to it. See see and know what is going around. Dont react - nor you should respond. I hope this answers all questions.
@MattyJames25 LOL, you think this philosophical question relevant. And now you sound all mad about it. Regardless how philsophically deep you want to take this the fact remains there are too many unanswered questions, but there's no need to get pissed off just because i have an opinion. cheers mate.
@noxure Which is why "infinite", Omnipotent which means power with no end i.e infinite does not exist. It is contradictory. If god where to exist he would have had to had to have a beggening and have to have and end at some point. There is not one thing in this universe that is not infinite by our understanding so far.
An evolving universe (God) requires action (evil) and reaction (good).
Even an omnipotent God has laws to obey it seems. :)
Similar theme is the question: "if God is omnipotent, can he create a stone so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" If yes, then he's not omnipotent. If no, then he's not omnipotent either.
@SuperDoctor16 it actually didn't bring us closer. The 'holy' war in the Middle East is like a knock off of WWII. When the Jews fled to Jerusalem, the Muslims were furious.
The war is STILL going on. I don't think that is bringing people together. War always tears people apart.
@SuperDoctor16 then it seems like god is rather fond of teaching us that lesson again and again, almost always by killing people. Are we (supposedly created at his image) that dumb? Or is he just a lousy teacher? He should have already chosen a diferent teaching method by now.. And if he wants to teach us why didn't he created us already taught? Why do millions of people have do die so that he can teach us something? And please don't answer "god works in misterious ways..."
I couldn't really care any less for religion honestly. All I know is, if there truly is a god, I'd have many questions for them as to why they can do all of this but not prevent some of the horrible tragedies brought upon our world. I get tired of hearing religious fools telling me "You're following Satan by asking this and that."
Don't put a bible or anything to my face as an excuse, show me some true answers for once.
FerretDude15 1 week ago
God is Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent, meaning that He can do aaanything and is Ultimately Good. Yet the questions are asked in a way that the answer is bound to create a contradiction.
Omnipotent BUT malevolent? Omnibenevolent BUT impotent? Then it is not God we're talking about anymore. How about defining that concept first?
lightsparks 2 months ago
Logic deals in words. It consists of defining terms, putting these together to form premises, and combining premises to extract inferences from them. So a logical argument will go wherever motives take us. If we wish to reach a conclusion then we need only define our terms appropriately and select the appropriate premises.
That is why arguments between different people who have different motives will be endless and futile ;)
lightsparks 2 months ago
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lightsparks 2 months ago
theodin!
orangepeelification 2 months ago
I think a far more interesting question was put forth by Stephen Colbert who asked, "Can God build a yacht so big, even he cannot fill it with bitches?"
DunklinDonuts 2 months ago
Lack of good =/= Evil.
Just as lack of love =/= hate, and not liking something doesn't mean you find it repugnant.
That is called a false dichotomy.
Mathenaut 3 months ago 2
@Mathenaut
This is true, but I fail to see where you are going with it.
Just because there are shades of grey in between the two points, does not mean that the points of white and black do not exist. Epicurus is questioning god's ability to prevent or willingness to allow evil. So, why did he not prevent the holocaust, which was unquestionable evil?
darkfiresl2 2 months ago
@darkfiresl2
The better question is:
Given the standard of morality the christian god demonstrates in the bible, was the holocaust really 'evil' by his book?
Mathenaut 2 months ago
@Mathenaut
Based on his actions and his commands, no, it would not be considered evil. However, when judged by any rational human being, it cannot be seen as anything but.
Returning to my original question, where did you intend to go with your observation that lack of good is not equivalent to evil?
darkfiresl2 2 months ago
@darkfiresl2
I think that was a response to the usual 'hate god' nonsense or something. Won't lie to you, I don't really feel like going back to look it up.
Mathenaut 2 months ago
@Mathenaut
Fair enough, ciao!
darkfiresl2 2 months ago
@Mathenaut
That is indeed why Epicurus used the term Ataraxia; When we do not suffer pain, we are no longer in need of pleasure, and we enter a state of 'perfect mental peace'.
leonthalion 2 months ago
I once presented this arguement in debate class but with omniscience added in which made it more complicated. when I found our it had already been presented I jizzed myself a little.
purplederple 6 months ago
"Fell deeds awake! Now for wrath! Now for ruin--and the red dawn! Forth, Eorlingas!"
Gwaithmir 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Evil does not exist and hate only exists because people believe in evil. Please stop calling and thinking of things that are bad as "evil". It doesn't exist. I really wish that this thought comes through to as many people as possible. I don't want to see more unnecessary hate and suffering in the world.
mamikodis 7 months ago
And thus the crowd shouted onto Epicurus, "win, you have."
and thus he turned to clreks of the gods and demaneded "now make me a sandvitch bitches."
And then he eath his epic sandvich.
whydid666 8 months ago 22
19 people are blind believers of whatever their priest told them.
Agnostic21 8 months ago
This simple riddle just RAPES the minds of the simple minded theist. When i first heard it i fell in love with the Greek philosopher.
halflifeproductionz 9 months ago
A must seen video to all Atheists. Epicurus was a genius!
elarrebat 10 months ago
Oh Snap !
jaredknightcom 10 months ago
He is able and willing...
There is no evil...only a lack of good.
Its like there is no dark, only lack of light..
and there is no cold, only a lack of heat....
There is a lack of Good because there is a lack of love...
and there is a lack of love because there is a lack of God.
God IS love...and when you reject God, you reject love, and you reject good...and you yourself create the evil.
WuNdAfRiEnD 11 months ago
Comment removed
RPFS2008 11 months ago
@WuNdAfRiEnD
Is God all knowing?
If so, he creates people who are good and yet knows that they will never come to believe in God (and thus never accept Jesus)
He made the rule that those who do not accept Jesus are to be punished (eg. Hell)
He therefore is creating good people just to punish them.
Is he really benevolent then?
RPFS2008 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@WuNdAfRiEnD
Is God all knowing?
If so, he creates people who he knows will cause suffering and never become good
Is he not therefore, at least to some degree, responsible for creating evil (or lack of good) in the world? How can he then be benevolent?
RPFS2008 11 months ago
@WuNdAfRiEnD How very totalitarian.
CosmosLoyal 11 months ago
@WuNdAfRiEnD thats pretty flimsy logic... How can you automatically assume that there is a direct correlation with God and Love?... You bring up several scientific ideals, which within its source, clash with the general idea of monotheism...
PrickledMantis 11 months ago
@WuNdAfRiEnD wow awesome quote from A. Einstein! faggot dont claim it as your own
xfunnyx15 11 months ago
@xfunnyx15 hang on, i might be just tired and misreading, but are you saying that A. Einstein came up with the quote here???
HerrJamie 10 months ago
@HerrJamie who else?
xfunnyx15 10 months ago
@xfunnyx15 uuuuh Epicurus. you do realise he was born before "Jesus" was born... BEFOR A.Einstein
HerrJamie 10 months ago
@HerrJamie Pls show me that its a quote by epicurus, i cant find anything with google
xfunnyx15 10 months ago
@xfunnyx15 uh...its pretty obvious that it IS. i mean its like one of his most famouse quotes
HerrJamie 10 months ago
@xfunnyx15 if u did google it you didnt even open yours eyes. it was the first one.. and second..and third. etc just google "Epicurus Quote" it should be the first one.
HerrJamie 10 months ago
@HerrJamie @HerrJamie wait a sec... do we talk about the same quote? i mean the one about "does evil exist". try it with youtube: "Albert Einstein evil"
xfunnyx15 10 months ago
@xfunnyx15 OH lol my apologys. lol i thought you ment the one in the video lol :p im glad you didnt think what i thought* you did haha
HerrJamie 10 months ago
@HerrJamie np at least the mystery is solved ;D
xfunnyx15 10 months ago
@xfunnyx15 totally :p
HerrJamie 10 months ago
@xfunnyx15 Interesting. I didn't realize I claimed anything.
Its just something that should be well known.
WuNdAfRiEnD 10 months ago
@WuNdAfRiEnD Yeah, but if you quote somebody you always write from who the quote is. Just sayin
xfunnyx15 10 months ago
@WuNdAfRiEnD All you've done is simply that god cannot be omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent, thus raising the question of why we should even bother calling him god.
ConfusedEcho 10 months ago
@WuNdAfRiEnD
The lack of good=evil
The lack of light=dark
The lack of heat=cold
By the way you just created a tautology infested with logical fallacies. Thank you for your dumb assumption, and by giving us some obscured alternate definitions.
kisskisskiss121212 7 months ago
@kisskisskiss121212 Dont you hate that, i will continue There is no love just the lack of hate lol
There is no theists just the lack of critical reasoning.
orcodrilo 6 months ago
@kisskisskiss121212 i guess then evil does not exist bechsoe god is omnipresent. aka, present everywhere. allso lack of good is not evil bechose while action can be void of good, it allso is not neccesarily evil. like scratching your butt when no one is around. its not evil or good its completly neautral. evil and good are like minerals, there can be both present at the same time. some deposids have it more good then evil, others have more evil then good.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
@gethsoftware
Hey, once you can formulate a sentence and take a class on philosophy or SOMETHING you can respond to me, but till then don't respond. You are a waste of time.
Also: Than*
kisskisskiss121212 3 months ago
@WuNdAfRiEnD Evil is a perception of humans. Evil does not really exist. Evil is used to describe things that are disagreeable to an extreme sense. Much like god, evil does not exist.
TheLogicalHuman 6 months ago
Just because you are Christian does not mean you know love, or God...
and just because you are atheist does not mean you do not understand love either, you just don't understand it as God, but only as self. ...
Its a big Schism...and it has been a schism since the beginning of time.
Simplify life.
Change your ways of thinking...
and see if the outward begins to look more like the inward. It might freak you out, but try it
WuNdAfRiEnD 11 months ago
What documentary is this from?
SinnFein4ever 11 months ago
@bananabread119 well, firstly, i have the moral argument which goes: 1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist. 2. Objective moral values do exist 3. Therefore, God exists. secondly i have other arguments which imply a moral God, yet, im perfectly fine grounding my concept of a moral God in this argument, you have any thoughts on it?
atbigdog24002 1 year ago
@atbigdog24002 moral values are a product of civilization
BrianPurge 1 year ago
@atbigdog24002 How do you know what God's morals are? For all you know, he could be evil and we are continuously violating his moral values. I've always noticed that God's morals reflect the morals of the believer. A few hundred years ago, God supposedly approved of slavery. Now he doesn't. Coincidence? I think not.
Drgamedood 1 year ago
This and the Euthyphro dilemma is more than enough proof that the omni-benevolent omnipotent God cannot exist, and thus all religions in the world are bullshit, except maybe Buddhism but they're hardly a religion.
burdenuponsociety 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@burdenuponsociety "...all religions in the world are bullshit, except maybe Buddhism but they're hardly a religion."
They may be the only religion in the world with no God but they have as much bullshit as all the others, they just have much better presentation.
chrisofnottingham 1 year ago
LOL how do you know if God is morally evil & will choose to burn you in hell forever when you die...just to see the look on your face?
That's where you end up. No observation you make about God could be ruled out to be in the class of divinely commanded paths to greater goods.
You only assume he is good by adhering to your subjective sense of "good" & pair that up with circular logic of defining God as good because he is by definition.
I'd like to call this...the Abgef riddle ^_^
Abgef 1 year ago
The only burning bush i ever saw talk was g.w .
DEATHGOD198255 1 year ago
Epicurus' riddle only seems to be a 'win' if you're one-sided in your reading and research. For instance, you have to remember that the theology that Epicurus dealt with was neither Jewish theology (which Epicurus would know nothing about) not Christian theology (which was not yet in existence). I know, it hurts to think; but believe me, it's worth it.
AgApE010 1 year ago
@AgApE010Since Epicurus lived until 270BCE he would have known about the Abrahamic God of the Bible but it can apply to and god or gods that are considered all powerful. If they cannot stop evil from happening then they aren't all powerful and if they aren't all powerful then why call them god?
lautz73 1 year ago
@lautz73
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Epicurus did not know about the God of Israel. The only times Greeks really became aware of the Judeo-Christian religion was after Christ when many Greeks were converting to Christianity.
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The problem with Epicurus' riddle is that it is very shallow in that it does not take into consideration things like God's justice, decrees, the doctrine of sin, etc. Because of this, it ends up creating a false-dilemma. Epicurus' argument would only apply within a VERY narrow theological scope.
AgApE010 1 year ago
@AgApE010 I didn't say the judeo-christian god. I said that Abrahamic God. The Jewsih people were around at the time and the Greeks would have know about them. The question was direscted at the "preachers" (I know they weren't called that) of the Jewish faith of the time. It still raises the dilema that if God were all powerful and chooses not to stop evil then he is malevolent (mean). I don't think that people would want to serve/obey a mean God, do you?
lautz73 1 year ago
@lautz73
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The Judeo-Christian God = Abrahamic God. Please do not try to play a theology scholar unless you've taken courses or read works on the topic or else you'll just embarrass yourself.
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I see you tend to mindlessly repeat yourself. Let's put a stop to that: since you're making the claim that Epicurus was informed about Jewish Theology and that he directed his quote at them as well, provide evidence for these claims. No whining, no nothing. Just present the evidence if you can.
AgApE010 1 year ago
@AgApE010 The Abrahamic God also includes the God of the muslims, that's the difference. And since Christians didn't exist at the time the Judeo-christian God is a misnomer.
I know that you won't do it but look up Epicurus on Google and you will see the origin of the riddle and how he asked it to the Jewish theologins. All it takes is a little effort on your part to understand that you don't know everything that you think you do.
lautz73 1 year ago
@lautz73
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When you ask someone to provide evidence for their claims and they tell you "just Google it," it's a pretty good indicator they don't know what they're talking about.
AgApE010 1 year ago
@lautz73
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"It still raises the dilemma"
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No it doesn't. I already explained in detail how it is that Epicurus provides a false dilemma when his argument is applied to Judeo-Christian Theology. Selective reading and avoiding responses that rip your argument to shreds seem to be your game. So how about you just walk and let someone else reply rather than you littering the comment thread? I can't stand it when people argue with religious zeal about something they don't even understand.
AgApE010 1 year ago
@AgApE010 It applies to ANY GOD that claims to be all powerful, that includes the judeo-christian God. If such a God is all powerful then that God should be able to stop evil and if it can't then it's not all powerful, if it can but isn't willing then it's mean, if it can and is willing then why is there evil? If it can't and isn't willing then why is it called a God at all? That applies to ANY GOD. Do you understand now or do I need to take it to a moronic level for you to understand.
lautz73 1 year ago
@lautz73
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Keep plugging your fingers into your ears. I already explained that the riddle, when applied to Jewish/Christian theism, creates a false dilemma because it does not take into consideration God's justice, man's sin, man's condemnation before God, sanctification, etc. Epicurus knew nothing about these things, and it is unfair to Epicurus himself to shoehorn his otherwise brilliant argument into a theology where it does not apply and that it did not even intend to answer.
AgApE010 1 year ago
i wonder if epicurus ever thought that God might have a reason to allow the existence of evil? no the logical problem of evil was defeated a while back, epicurus' questions do not disprove God.
atbigdog24002 1 year ago
@atbigdog24002 he disprove at least the catholic God
TheShanks 1 year ago
@atbigdog24002 The logical problem of evil? If God were all powerful then he could stop evil. If he chooses not to then he is mean. If he can't then he isn't all powerful. Do you serve a mean god?
lautz73 1 year ago
@lautz73 correct, that is the logical problem of evil, the problem w/ arguing from the logical problem of evil is that the burden of proof is too heavy for you to provide reasonable evidence that: If God were all powerful then he could stop evil. The truth is, there could be any number of reasons God, even being all powerful, would allow evil.
atbigdog24002 1 year ago
@atbigdog24002 It's obvious that if God were all powerful that he could stop evil. If he can't stop evil then he isn't all powerful. If he is able but unwilling to stop evil then he is malevolent (mean). Now answer the question, do you serve a mean God? If the answer is no then the Abrahamic God (the Jewsih, Christian, and Mulsim God) isn't the God you should worship. If you want to worship a mean God then by all means continue to worship him.
lautz73 1 year ago
@lautz73 It is possible that God has morally permissible reasons to allow evil, even though he is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, therefore your premise that: "If he is able but unwilling to stop evil then he is malevolent (mean)." doesn't hold. Now this is the logical version of the argument against god from evil, if this were instead some different formulation of the argument from evil, then we would be having a very different, less one-sided conversation.
atbigdog24002 1 year ago
@atbigdog24002 You mean the same morals that allowed the Israelites to murder 10s of thounsands of people, many inocent women and children. That allowed the Israelites to rape virgins. The same morals that allowed countless attrocities in his name? If those are the morals your refering to then the world would be better off without the morals of such a God. I have better morals than that and I have no God.
lautz73 1 year ago
@lautz73 again, we are moving away from the logical problem of evil, i never defended the concept of god as seen in the christian bible, therefore, it is obvious that you are attacking straw men, yet i am prepared to defend the concept of god put forth by the bible, so my question would be, what examples are you referring to? i shall do my best to provide reasons to explain away misconceptions about them. we have moved completely away from epicurus' logical problem of evil for what reason idk
atbigdog24002 1 year ago
This just ties into why are we here? If God exists, what makes anyone think they know what he's capable of?
metalmonkey88 1 year ago
These video does not disprove the existence of God. It only asks a question: "why call him God?"
Answer: I call Him God because He is our Creator.
0HollyHood0 1 year ago
@0HollyHood0 It disproves the christian god and any other "all good, all knowing, all powerful" gods. the "why call him god" is saying that if this being exists and is neither able nor willing then he doesn't fit the defenition of "god".
th3vampan3z3l0rd 1 year ago
@th3vampan3z3l0rd No. This "riddle" makes the foolish assumption of attributing human thought to that of God.
0HollyHood0 1 year ago
@0HollyHood0 It asks the question of why does god allow evil. If he can't defeat evil then he isnt all powerful. If he can but chooses not to then he is mean. If he is able and willing then why does evil exist? If he can't and won't then he isn't worthy of being called a god. Simple straight forward question that can be asked of any god that people claim is all powerful.
lautz73 1 year ago
@lautz73 Ok let's say he isn't worthy, then what? The point is that He is our God, whether you label Him weak or powerful.
0HollyHood0 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@0HollyHood0 He is your god, not mine. And if he is weak and cannot do what he is said to be able to then why is he called a god at all?
lautz73 1 year ago
@0HollyHood0 your comment does nothing but prove your dyslexia
tejr93 1 year ago
@tejr93 I pity you.
0HollyHood0 1 year ago
Sir(s), Free will means free will.
TheJbach 1 year ago
@TheJbach If there is free will then God isn't all knowing like religion teaches. If he is all knowing then he knows our choices and has decided our punishment before we are even born. If he doesn't know our choices until we make them then he isn't all knowing. It's either free will or all knowing. Which do you believe?
lautz73 1 year ago
So you do not know what a riddle is then. This is not a riddle.
AEVautomatic 1 year ago
For Rohan!
Person009 1 year ago 36
@Person009 The smartest thing I've seen in the comments section :-P
PhilWithCoffee 1 year ago
@PhilWithCoffee
Thanks you sir
Person009 1 year ago
Proverbs 16:4 - The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
rob21dog 1 year ago
*go
AwkwardArmadillo 1 year ago
He doesn't abolish evil so he can filter out those who will to to him willingly or those who will stray from his path since we all have free will.
AwkwardArmadillo 1 year ago
@AwkwardArmadillo But if he is all loving then why would he wish anyone to stray from his path, if their circumstance leads them to such a problem?
MrShadyJeff 1 year ago
@AwkwardArmadillo But he knows how our life will go, if he has to filter out people then he's not omnipotent and thus not all knowing or all powerful.
MrOmfgwtf1991 1 year ago
@AwkwardArmadillo I submit to you that if god is all knowing then freewill doesn't exist. If he's all knowing then he knows the choices that we are going to make and the puncihment for those choices before we are even born. "Freewill" then becomes fate. If he doesn't know the choices that we are going to make then he is not all knowing. If he is all powerful then he could override our freewill and make us serve him. If he can't do that then he isn't all powerful.
lautz73 1 year ago
It's not really a riddle, it's more of a statement.
Anguigen 1 year ago
If God wanted to get rid of evil.then everyone would disappear :(
xchinox11 1 year ago
What is the title of the documentary thisisfrom?
MysticOfTheSands 1 year ago
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
alijakupovic 1 year ago 8
You just know you are meant to be a genius if your name starts with "Epic"
nicogutierrez2013 1 year ago 3
this was probably the best directing i have seen in my life
kdizzzle123 1 year ago
Why are all actors from LOTR such badasses?
anadus7 1 year ago
Atheist... winning since 341 BCE !
beruman 1 year ago 68
@beruman Now there's a T-Shirt!
TomMSTie1138 1 year ago
Comment removed
tasteydelishus 1 year ago
the perfect stanza that renders the belief in god needless!
godisanatheist85 1 year ago
Fucking epic! Epic-curus.
dildace 1 year ago
For Rohan!
0Gumpy0 1 year ago
@expressssssssssss First of all, we deserve whatever suffering we get. We're the ones who hated Him, rejected Him, and butchered His son alive in one of the worst imaginable deaths. It's because we are so easily fooled by Satan that we go through any suffering at all. God brings those who have faith in Him through their suffering. Also, good can come out of bad. You don't have to love God to know that.
daviddet 1 year ago
@daviddet GOD'S NOT REAL!!!
Don't be mad, Satan fooled me into writing that. I have no free will.
royalpanthera7 1 year ago
@daviddet - "we deserve whatever suffering we get"?????
Why do Christians always sound like battered women making excuses for their tormentor, or like captives displaying kiss-ass "Stockholm syndrome" towards their abusers?
nameofthepen 1 year ago
@daviddet First off, I didn't torture jesus, so why should god hold me responsible?
Second, if god is omnipotent, he would have got rid of evil, and satan's influence.
Third, YOU are the one that brings yourself out of suffering, not god.
God is either all powerful and evil.
All good but powerless
It is impossible for him to be both, because evil exists
If he is neither powerful, nor good, then he is not god
mercifulkyle 1 year ago
@mercifulkyle Your logic is faulty.
sphinxrising58 1 year ago
@sphinxrising58 How?
mercifulkyle 1 year ago
@mercifulkyle Assuming there is a God, you placing your self-imposed limitations on him/her/it does not make you automatically correct, paarticularly concerning your last 4 statements.
sphinxrising58 1 year ago
@sphinxrising58 My limitations as you put it, are simply logic, and I think my last 4 statements make a lot of sense, but considering you say otherwise, can you correct me then.
mercifulkyle 1 year ago
scribd (dot) com / nb812
DreamsofMajesty 1 year ago
Also lets not forget that on individual levels we are all capable of both good or evil acts doesnt matter if you are a jew or nazi or from any faith. Every day we choose whether we steal, backstab someone to get ahead, lie to someone, cheat on someone we love etc. We can all do good or we can harm others to get ahead in life. I think the root of evil is greed and the huge disparity of wealth in this world shows that. Id say that greed is directly tied to wars, hatred and human exploitation.
as04qg 1 year ago
I want to clarify that I'm not being religious. I felt that there is a logical fallacy in this so called argument. Hitler was evil but I am referring to the fact there is some degree of good and evil in all of us. Genocide isnt the only kind of evil. Ppl are dieing due to poverty in this world while some few wealthy groups want to remain filthy rich and in control. Its a world with HAVES vs. HAVE NOTS. Human greed is the greatest evil. It causes wars, racism, nationalism human exploitation...
as04qg 1 year ago
King Theodan is right!!!
Iceyguy101 1 year ago 3
SO intense....
reesealdrich 1 year ago
There is a possibility that God is able to prevent evil but unwilling to INTERFERE..This "riddle" does not take into account the fact that good/evil may be a choice that each individual is responsible for. I think if GOD steps into simply STOP evil it would defeat the purpose of giving his creations the ability to choose. The fact that God does not interfere by no means proves that he is unable to do so. One possibility is that he could be testing us to see which of us are agressors and evil.
as04qg 1 year ago
@as04qg Well what does this test do for the victims of the evil committed by others? I mean what about say the Jews during the holocaust? Hitlers evil, Hitlers sins afflicted millions of innocent people who were simply victims of Hitlers "test". so what i get is in order to test one man your god would condemn millions to suffer and die, as Epicurus would say, then he is malevolent.
boredAfrican1 1 year ago
@as04qg
If God is all-knowing, he wouldn't need to test us.
Kelarre653 1 year ago
@Kelarre653 Is your god limted ? If so it is merely like like us so why call him God.
bogart99 1 year ago
@bogart99
You seem to think that I believe in God... I don't. I'm just saying. The whole "life is a test" thing is total shite because God, being God, would already know the answer.
Kelarre653 1 year ago
@Kelarre653 How about this then? God doesn't test you to see what you would do in a certain situation. He knows what will happen. He tests you so that the result may happen, and so that you may grow in your faith with your acknowledgment of the result. Ex: My dog died and I was sad, but looking back I realized that God used my dog's death to bring me closer to Him. Why didn't he just automatically draw me closer to Him to make me love Him more? If that happens, it's not really love, is it?
daviddet 1 year ago
@Kelarre653 Looking at it this way, you realize that He's not going to abolish all evil in the world right now, because He's still giving more and more people reason to love Him. Eventually He will destroy all evil and remove it from existence. He's just getting more people to love Him. It's like this: if I beat you with a baseball bat until I finally get you to say that you want to be friends with me, it's different than if I got to know you, talked to you, and learned about you, isn't it?
daviddet 1 year ago
@daviddet
If God is so powerful and high above us, why is he so insecure as to want our faith?
Kelarre653 1 year ago
@Kelarre653 He's not insecure. He wants our faith because He loves us. It's a much better way for Him to show His love by making things happen in our lives that give us reason to love Him, rather than just making us love Him.
daviddet 1 year ago
@daviddet
Then why doesn't he prevent the premature deaths, miscarriages, etc that aren't done by human hands? Why is it that some people are rich and comfortable wasting millions whilst others are starving in complete poverty? Does your god have favourites?
Kelarre653 1 year ago
@Kelarre653 You're arguing in circles. See my first reply.
daviddet 1 year ago
@daviddet which God are you talking about, God of the old testament or Jesus the son of God, if you're talking about the son of God i'm with you, He is loving but the father wasnt loving in the old testament, quit being bias thou shalt not lie
zipitup75 1 year ago
@zipitup75 not loving in the old testament nor in our days i might add
DudeIAmAPsy 1 year ago
@zipitup75 Let me put in one of my favourite quotes from the Bible here. Luke 19, 27, New Testament. Jesus, in the flesh: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here, and slay them in front of me!"
SimulacronX 1 year ago
@SimulacronX ohb ok you're talking about the parable about a king?
zipitup75 1 year ago
@zipitup75 The God of the old testament and the God of the new testament are the same. The only reason He seemed harsher was because we didn't have Christ to mediate for us in the old testament.
daviddet 1 year ago
@daviddet so basically you're saying God the father is a bully and a tyrant, and Jesus have to stand up to the father and stop Him from punishing people for nonsense, what i believe is: God is a judge and not a loving father, and is incapable of true forgiveness, He alway have to kill something in order to pardon any sin I.E animal sacrifice, Jesus on the other hand is loving and compassionate and He forgives without asking to kill something why cant people see the difference
zipitup75 1 year ago
@as04qg
if god has prior knowledge that certain souls are doomed irespective of the way they exercise their free will, then why make them in the first place? He is being cruel.
If he doesn't know which way they will exercise their free will, then he is not all knowing. wilwil
ukidding 1 year ago
Dude!!! the guy who speaks this is Theoden from Lord of the Rings!!!!
AJewNamedAlex 1 year ago
@AJewNamedAlex
"Fell deeds awake! Now for wrath, now for ruin--and the red dawn! Forth Eorlingas!"
Gwaithmir 1 year ago
there is no god, there is no evil.
only the mind of man, looking for himself.
LightLizard 1 year ago
logical, concise, devestating.
JCarter3000 1 year ago
How about this....
God's power and his work is through us. Through mankind. Through the ones who made evil exist in this world.
People usually focus on God's actions, and how he does them, they never actually focus on God himself. We do not know who or what God is, we can't just jump to conclusions like that.
marcelthebomb 1 year ago
@marcelthebomb Wouldn't that comment be a conclusion that we can't make?
xirishmagicx 1 year ago
@xirishmagicx True
marcelthebomb 1 year ago
EPIC LOOK. WHY CALL HIM GOD????
Dmeeder 1 year ago
i guess the question itself has no base. What GOD GOD GOD? you are responsible for all. Why do you blame God or credit God?
engineersvedant 1 year ago
There is nothing evil nor good. All is as just physical, in their state as nature has made. It is 'we' who make things good or bad. Eg. your business deal could be good for u but bad for your competitors. You are responsible for what you do. No one else. Its you who do it and face it. But your attitude should be neither happy nor sad to it. See see and know what is going around. Dont react - nor you should respond. I hope this answers all questions.
engineersvedant 1 year ago
This is so stupid, it just asks a question then his other side answers it.....fucking watch Dr. Phil if thats what makes you happy. but this is lame.
obagysan 1 year ago
@obagysan That's right, 2,500 year old philosophical question which remains just as relevant and poignant today as it did then is certainly, "lame".
Can't wait for your brilliant contribution to metaphysical inquiry...
MattyJames25 1 year ago
@MattyJames25 LOL, you think this philosophical question relevant. And now you sound all mad about it. Regardless how philsophically deep you want to take this the fact remains there are too many unanswered questions, but there's no need to get pissed off just because i have an opinion. cheers mate.
obagysan 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@obagysan "This is so stupid, it just asks a question then his other side answers it.....fucking watch Dr. Phil if thats what makes you happy"
Right, and I am the one who sounds "mad".
MattyJames25 1 year ago
@noxure Which is why "infinite", Omnipotent which means power with no end i.e infinite does not exist. It is contradictory. If god where to exist he would have had to had to have a beggening and have to have and end at some point. There is not one thing in this universe that is not infinite by our understanding so far.
KayoteThunder 1 year ago
An evolving universe (God) requires action (evil) and reaction (good).
Even an omnipotent God has laws to obey it seems. :)
Similar theme is the question: "if God is omnipotent, can he create a stone so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" If yes, then he's not omnipotent. If no, then he's not omnipotent either.
noxure 1 year ago
Hail Theoden, King of Rohan!!! He does Epicurus proud! :-)
paulbernardo75 1 year ago 2
Haha I love the dramatic look at the end :P
XTacoMangX 1 year ago 29
@XTacoMangX the dramatic look at the end reminds me somehow the dramatic chipmunk
Faithless863 1 year ago
My hero.
KayoteThunder 1 year ago
@SuperDoctor16
God created evil so that we may learn and fight against evil?
dycarbon1 1 year ago
Is it me or does this fellow look like Theodon of Rohan from Lord of the Rings?
dycarbon1 1 year ago
From what documentary was this taken ?
Thank you
n0th1ng2 1 year ago
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paulbernardo75 1 year ago
@n0th1ng2
BBCFour documentary: Jonathan Miller's Brief History of Disbelief.
paulbernardo75 1 year ago
@SuperDoctor16 it actually didn't bring us closer. The 'holy' war in the Middle East is like a knock off of WWII. When the Jews fled to Jerusalem, the Muslims were furious.
The war is STILL going on. I don't think that is bringing people together. War always tears people apart.
pocketmoney123 1 year ago
@SuperDoctor16 then it seems like god is rather fond of teaching us that lesson again and again, almost always by killing people. Are we (supposedly created at his image) that dumb? Or is he just a lousy teacher? He should have already chosen a diferent teaching method by now.. And if he wants to teach us why didn't he created us already taught? Why do millions of people have do die so that he can teach us something? And please don't answer "god works in misterious ways..."
andresilva86 1 year ago
evil is the absence of god. problem solved.
ZachariasClub 1 year ago
@ZachariasClub
If evil is the absence of god then obviously he does not exist.
Self PWNED
dycarbon1 1 year ago