William Lane Craig vs Ronald De Sousa 15/16 (York University)

[jonathanfater]

5:05 Now thats a smile of a winner :)

[JusJuiceIt]

@jonathanfater

indeed!

[HonestTechnoAtheist]

How about when we die we cease to exist.

[hexusziggurat]

@HonestTechnoAtheist do we cease to exist? we just exist on a differing level ...whether thats the atheistic (dust/dirt level) or the theistic (spiritual + dust/dirt level). Since we are only an almagam of particles (considering just the body) on the atheistic version then it would seem that they would uphold that we certainly do exist but just change forms on the particle cohesion level.

[STONEWALLNOGOAL34]

When we die we are dead. Resting in peace...we dont go off to heaven right after we die but God, the Holy One, offers us eternal life that is He will raise us up from the dead on the last day. This life is through Yeshua the Messiah....God redeems us from our sins ,wrong doing, through the Messiah. We all have a choice.

"And eternal life is this: to know you the One true God and him whom you sent Yeshua the Messiah." John 17:3

[BillTheCat7]

"...we dont go off to heaven right after we die"

Wasn't it Paul who said "absent from the body, present with the Lord"?

[agnostaxian]

In Pam Reynold's NDE she was brain dead, no blood in the brain, the brain wasn't working, like a car without oil, dead, and she describes acurately her own operation down to details. This fits very well into a religious worldview not so much into a naturalistic atheistic one.

[yepeshovo]

@agnostaxian she did not accurately describe her operation. she was fully brain dead for6-7 minutes of the 7 hours that she was under anesthesia. also, their have been reports of people having OBEs without any risk to life, fear alone can trigger it.

[agnostaxian]

@yepeshovo come on, thousands of people hallucinating the same thing and it just so happens to be what all the religions have said for centuries? I have had atheists themselves say that NDE's are legit but that "this doesn't prove that God exist". What the hell? The answer is obvious to anyone who doesn't impose naturalism onto the evidence. NDE's are real and Pam and the rest aren't lying about it

I am convinced that nothing will convince most atheists that God and an afterlife exists

[yepeshovo]

@agnostaxian those atheists who said NDE's are legit should do a bit more research on the subject, you also . also you dodged my comment about people experiencing OBE's (Out of body experiences) who were nowhere near death, and that it was fear that triggered the experience.

[agnostaxian]

@yepeshovo Fine, what would convince you that God exists? Jesus appearing in the sky for all to see? Christians being able to levitate through prayer? The ten commandments on the back side of the moon? What?

[yepeshovo]

@agnostaxian you should know that the Hebrews believed in god because of a "supposed" national revelation to all of them, at Mt Sinai. The Jewish Messiah is supposed to unite the whole world and bring all The Jews back into Israel, All of Them "Zechariah 14:9". That is one reason why they don't accept Jesus as their Messiah. He failed to complete prophecies.

[agnostaxian]

@yepeshovo what evidence would it take to convince YOU that God exists? name it, anything

[yepeshovo]

@agnostaxian A World Revelation would be a start. But, nothing short of real Evidence of his existence would convince me.It is not moral, if God exists, for him to be Obscure, and then Judge us on whether or not we believed in him. I see no importance in the Act of Faith,but he will judged us by it. As if God desires those who are most gullible, and resents those who rely on Logic, and Reason in their lives. If God created us, then he created skepticism. And skepticism is a Virtue.

[agnostaxian]

@yepeshovo Skepticism is good up to a point then it can become cowardice. Every huge relational decision (ie having a friend, child or mate) takes HUGE faith and TRUST and a risk of being hurt and burned but if you want real love you must risk it or remain "safe" and skeptical all your life.

A world revelation you say? Like God appearing in the sky for all to see and saying audibly "I am God" or something like that would convince you? Yes or NO

[yepeshovo]

@agnostaxian Skepticism has to do with doubting and analyzing Claims, nothing to do with trust. and is not related to bravery or cowardice in any way. your comment about skepticism is a Non Sequitur. I trust friends, and mates for good reasons, usually cause they have proven to be reliable. I am skeptical with regards to Claims(especially supernatural ones). i see you had no comment on the bulk of my last comment.

[agnostaxian]

@yepeshovo You said that a world revelation would convince you that God exists, is that correct? yes or no

[yepeshovo]

@agnostaxian A world revelation like i said would be a start, but impirical evidence is required. if the world had a revelation, it may justify our belief, but it would not justify our descendants who weren't there to experience it. that is why impirical evidence is required.

[agnostaxian]

@yepeshovo tell me the exact nature of this "empirical evidence" that would be required. A cross in the sky that floats up there and says "Jesus saves". A huge light up there saying "I am God, please worship me". Jesus coming back in a physical form and we could touch him like Thomas. What exactly would it take?

[yepeshovo]

@agnostaxian Empirical evidence is needed for research that bases its findings on direct or indirect observation as its test of reality.

The exact evidence doesn't matter as long as it meets these requirements.

[agnostaxian]

@yepeshovo Like What? again, you name it and be specific. What do you want to see?

[yepeshovo]

@agnostaxian The nature of NDE's have always reflected the religion that they have been influenced by in their lives i.e Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, to name a few. I have a friend who is wican, that had a NDE and it was nothing like what christians report. sorry you are misinformed, NDE's are not all the same.

I am convinced that people who are willing to believe in god, and the super natural, will look for any excuse regardless of facts, and evidence to support their views.

[unapologeticmind]

@agnostaxian Every now and then, some patient that's pronounced dead wakes up in the morgue but you don't see newspaper headlines claim that a miracle has happened. Everyone knows that physicians are not perfect and neither is the diagnostic equipment that they use. If living people can be pronounced dead by mistake, then so can braindead people. I've never witnessed either directly or indirectly something happen that is better explained by some religious book than by science...

[agnostaxian]

@unapologeticmind thats fine, that is ur presupposition but i am open to a supernatural interpretation and there are things that i think cannot be explained naturally, many nde's fall into this.

it is funny because i was watching a show where people thought a parallel universe collided with ours to cause the big bang, why cant it be the finger of god? just a thought

[unapologeticmind]

@agnostaxian The word "supernatural" often implies something mystical or inexplainable. I don't really believe in a division between natural and "supernatural" events. If an advanced civilization living in another universe were to beam an Easter Bunny into our universe, then that event would hardly merit the use of the word supernatural. It would just be the interplay of two laws of the same nature. The same thing is true if a God outside our universe willed something into being in our universe.

[agnostaxian]

@unapologeticmind yes, anything that occurs a naturalist would interpret from that presupposition

[unapologeticmind]

@agnostaxian I wouldn't call myself a naturalist. Naturalists agree with "supernaturalists" about the different nature of natural and (hypothetical) supernatural events. Both the believer and the atheist would after witnessing and confirming a "miraculous" event agree on it being supernatural. I don't agree with this initial premise. Any external input into any closed system could in that case qualify as a supernatural event. It's a matter of definition, obviously, but definitions are important.

[agnostaxian]

@unapologeticmind i respect that, i understand what u r saying

[94jmcorrea]

@agnostaxian in the millions of cases of death every year the brain stops working and the person dies, and all their knowledge, feelings, thoughts, hopes disappear, this fits perfectly with the naturalistic worldview

[agnostaxian]

@94jmcorrea i disagree :), many who have died and come back would also disagree and unlike us, they have a firsthand experience of death 

[94jmcorrea]

@agnostaxian they might think they have, but the science behind him is well understood... I have only 400 characters here, so go and read some neuroscience before making patently ignorant statements

[agnostaxian]

@94jmcorrea i have read some neuroscience and read the naturalistic explanations and i am not convinced. the people who had these experiences also think that it was not all in their minds. many have had hallucinations through drugs and other things and it just doesn't fit but i understand if someone is skeptical but if you had the experience yourself, you may think differently. :)

[94jmcorrea]

@agnostaxian tell that to an Alzheimer patient

[fenoglios]

That last question was a good one. I'm interested to see how he answers it.

[ivanisavich]

Thanks for uploading these!