Its easy. Let the child (male or female) grow to adult hood and let them make their own choice. Seems simple to me. Hitch as usual is bang on. Religion makes good people do evil (as we all know from the news).
@csadler "Religion makes good people do evil (as we all know from the news)."
I sure hope you aren't speaking about Islamic radicalism. You don't need to be religious to be put into an irrational state of mind. You just need the right motivations, which the jews have given to people who so happen to be Muslim. Even an Atheist can be driven to do things that are considered "evil". Furthermore, there are 1.5 BILLION Muslims, I think they are handling themselves just fine, as a whole, considering.
@TheWanderinSoul Oh, yes the Muslims are so good. Whats going on now.... Well Muslims are killing people over the burning of a book... Their women are treated as second class citizens - thats 1/2 the population right there. Not a day goes by that theres not a bomb going off in Iraq as the Muslims there kill each other of what *kind* of Muslim they are. Islam, by DEFINITION is a delusion... one that people kill over. How sick is that.
@TheWanderinSoul "A large crowd swarmed a military base and numerous demonstrations turned deadly Friday in Afghanistan, the fourth day of fallout from the burning of Qurans by NATO troops, officials said."
Killing over a book. A book of myths, and bronze aged nonsense. Kill over it. Only in Islam. Religion is a virus of the mind and Islam is the most potent strain of this sick virus.
@csadler There are over 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Yet, they have little influence. There are less than 14 million jews. Yet, they have the most political, and economical influence of ANY other group. They influence is being used to carry out a genocidal war, aimed at those 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Yet, only a VERY small fraction, of those 1.5 BILLION people, behave irrationally to an agenda that has tortured, and murdered, MILLIONS, upon MILLIONS, over THOUSANDS of years.
@TheWanderinSoul "agenda that has tortured, and murdered, MILLIONS, upon MILLIONS, over THOUSANDS of years"
You are full of shit. You religion is a murderous cult (all religions are cults) but yours is the worst. You kill over books..... over books of myths. Animals....
@csadler First off, I am not a Muslim. I am an objective observer. Secondly, whether it be because the book was burned, or because the book itself told them to do it; all those religions support killing over a mythical book.
@TheWanderinSoul " all those religions support killing over a mythical book."
But it seems the Muslims are the only ones doing it. When was the last time a girl in a non Muslim society had acid tossed in her face because she dared to go to school? What about women's rights in the Muslim world? Is not a women in Pakistan going to be killed for being a Blasphemer? The Muslim religion (all religions) is a retardation of the human species.
Only 7 people died. Most of which were probably Muslims, who died at the hands of those who were trying to stop the protest. Out of 1.5 BILLION people, that could have been horribly offended by the unjust burning of religious texts, that situation turned out pretty well.
As for the oppression of woman, the jew's texts depict women as just as subordinate.
You are misunderstanding the context in which I am referring to. Considering how many people have been horrifically oppressed, tortured, and murdered, for THOUSANDS of years, the fact that only 7 people died, is astounding.
Do you even understand the kind of devastating, demoralizing, mentally debilitating tension in that part of the world? Do you even understand why it's that way in the first place?
@TheWanderinSoul " been horrifically oppressed, tortured, and murdered, for THOUSANDS of years" yes, our history is bad... but these barbaric animals show no sign of progress do they?
' the fact that only 7 people died, is astounding." Really? Tell that to their families.
" mentally debilitating tension in that part of the world? Do you even understand why it's that way in the first place?"
Religion. And a fight over land that is claimed holy by *Religion*.
@csadler "these barbaric animals show no sign of progress do they?"
They do. You just need to look for it. Also, it doesn't help that they keep getting knocked so far back. It's difficult to evolve when you're constantly being worrying about more immediate issues.
@TheWanderinSoul Maybe they should step up and help their brothers in Syria? Funny, they do nothing to stop this slaughter and eventually the West will have to step in.
@csadler Have you not been paying attention to the revolution that has been spreading across the world? The people are taking their countries back. They are progressing. Perhaps, you should too.
@TheWanderinSoul Further, the Muslim secs killing each other over their *version* of Islam. Religion - is the virus that causes this. Tell me its not.
@csadler "But they don't practice it - your cult does"
All the mentioned religions are making changes to incorporate womens' rights, and even changing how women are being viewed and treated, regardless of how many radical conservatives try to manipulate those philosophies to fit their demented agendas. Most jews do not partake in the decisions making process that has caused the turmoil that we are seeing in that part of the world. Same goes for the Muslims.
@TheWanderinSoul I see no progress for Women in Islam. None. Honor killings in Islamic families here in my country! Young girls killed because they dared have a boy friend. Sick.
@TheWanderinSoul Wrong. There is one major difference. While I agree the Jewish state has their problems and has their religious zealots they are no where near as dangerous as Islam. The death spread by the Islamic cult is horrendous. All you have to do is read the news every day.
@TheWanderinSoul " "Islam, by DEFINITION is a delusion... one that people kill over."
So is christianity, and judaism. Your arguments are horribly weak."
I agree, christianityis sick, so is judaism... you are pushing an open door with me on that one. But the discussion here was Islam - remember? Try and stay on track.
@csadler Also, if you want to talk about one barbaric act over another, then lets talk about how judaism promotes the oral "healing" of a boy's penis.
@TheWanderinSoul I would agree with you 100 % on judaism and the sick acts that it promotes (this video for one). It is a virus on the mind as well - all religions are. So are the Quakers, but they don't kill and stay to them selves.
Circumcision in the US is not a particularly religious tradition but instead yet another example of sexual repression in the US. Look up people like John Harvey Kellogg and see the roots of the continuation of this horrid practice. As for the health benefits, they are non-existent besides taking an extra five seconds to clean the penis. The practice goes back to weird old men's "morals" that forbade little boys from touching themselves, which we all know is such an incredible evil.
@Greenster529 It's more accurate to say that circumcision in the US is NO LONGER a particularly religious tradition.
I have yet to see sexual repression "traditions" that don't stem from religious practice or precepts. Including Harvey Kellogg's crusade for abstinence and against masturbation... at any cost...
@Greenster529 It's roots are religious and it is a religious symbol marked into the flesh, many Christian parents do it in the US because they think it is a Christian thing to do even if they don't fully understand what it means just as my own parents. It may not be religious for everyone, but I couldn't imagine a non-religous or atheist perpetrating this act on a child knowing it is a irreversible religious symbol.
I absolutely agree with you on all other points though and applaud them.
"For it is a barbarous thing to meet a newly born infant with the knife, with a deliberate mutilation. And the part that is removed is not negligible; it has clear and valuable functions to perform. Not circumcising a boy will not only spare him a brutal violence as he enters life; it will promise him a richer existence." ~ George Wald, Jewish American scientist, Nobel Prize winner in Physiology or Medicine 1967
"For it is a barbarous thing to meet a newly born infant with the knife, with a deliberate mutilation. And the part that is removed is not negligible; it has clear and valuable functions to perform. Not circumcising a boy will not only spare him a brutal violence as he enters life; it will promise him a richer existence."
~ George Wald, Jewish American scientist, Nobel Prize winner in Physiology or Medicine 1967
Religion also propels inhumane treatment of animals. When an animal is killed for meat the western practice is to stun the animal first, then let the blood out.
In judaism and islam when producing kosher- and halal-meat the practice is to cut the throat open from a completely concious animal. In my country this would be punishable as animal torture.
We are not talking about abortion. The subject is genital mutilation. Stay on subject thank you. Mutilation of the male and female genitalia in a religious context is far removed from those requiring this procedure as a result of a genuine medical condition. As I said in my previous post, the people who inflict this procedure in a religious context are pedophiles. Filthy, disgusting pedophiles.
Female circumcision involves removal of sexual parts and should NOT be performed. Male circumc. has been clinically proven to help prevent STDs enormously (approx. 50%) including gonorrhea. Improves cleanliness. When performed by an exper'd physican, low complications. Hitchins shows his hypocrisy w/this issue: Unsafe abortions account for about 68,000 deaths per year (abortion also leads to suicide among many women; other complicats.), yet Hitchens supports freedom of choice with abortion.
@SkippyZ1210 Female circumcision is in most cases a misnomer, and so in most cases FGM is a more appropriate term. Having said this, there are at least 5 types of FGM itentified by the UN with several sub types for eact type. FGM type 1A is exactly the same as male circumcision. However, it is called mutilation.
Secondly, the hygiene comment is a myth. Whether male or female a persons genitals are only as clean as the owner wants them to be.
@neechee5150 Well just about that hygiene myth . Im not circumcised but it seem logical to me that its a harder to keep clean uncircumcised penis because there you have a pocket like area where "dirt" is most likely to accumulate . Where in the circumcised penis that are is removed . Of course that they are clean as owner wants them . But if He doesnt care much about that I think that circumcised penis would be cleaner by default .
@SkippyZ1210 Cutting of the genitals, be they female or male, is still genital cutting. It doesn't matter if one believes or doesn't the statistics about STD's. As an adult male, I am perfectly capable of avoiding STD's through appropriate practices. I don't need to have my foreskin removed in order to do it. Hitchens is discussing religious practices here: many horrible things are done in the name of religion. I don't want someone telling me that I need a part of my body removed.
This is child abuse in all it's forms. The people who inflict this horrible procedure on children should be sent to prison. They are no better than pedophiles. They seem to think that by calling themselves Rabbi's, this makes it ok. Well it's not. These people are predatory pedophiles who dress up their wicked and disgusting practices as some kind of religious ceremony. How disgusting! Shame on the Jewish pedophiles. Let's round them up and put them on trial.
DAYUM!!!!!! Cmon people Hitchens makes a point. Its ok on boys not girls. Although I believe they did an inconclusive study and found it split down the middle of uncircumcised people who then got the procedure and felt less stimulation afterwards.
@MSoltan1992 there are MANY non-suregry methods to treat themosis if thats what you're talking baout, I hope you were informed about that by your doctor, circ'ing should be the last resort to fight this condition
@MSoltan1992 FOR CHRIST SAKE, I literally can't read what you posted. "only 50% of boys are retractable by age ten" PLS google "Phony Phimosis Diagnosis" and read the article. USA wake up
I've never seen something blown so out of proportion, it's a fucking circumcision, not genocide. Jewish kids aren't emotionally scared for life after, nor do their dicks function any worse than someone who's uncircumcised. Ever been to a circumcision? The baby cries for no longer than 10 seconds. I'm not for religion but come on, comparing cutting off useless skin to destroying the entire vagina? Circumcisions make the dick look cleaner anyway, girls like it, stop crying Hitchens
@dann203 I absolutely agree! That's why I had my newborn son get a nose-job - because it looks better!
So what if he has to suffer the consequences of reduced feeling and will never know the sensations of having a real nose. It looks better, and to that end I am completely comfortable taking these liberties with someones body
@TheReggaeMortis can you name me one circumcised individual who's had an issue climaxing due to lack of feeling because of his circumcision? Have you ever heard of a circumcised individual go "I wish I had that extra skin back, what were my parents thinking, how dare they without my permission! Sadistic maniacs." The horrors of having less pull on your dick, please, this is a non issue, Hitchens likes to blow everything out of proportion, like sex through a sheet which is a completely bogus myth
@dann203 I don't really care for his confrontational attitude, either.
A quick Google search will show a lot of both parents and children who experience deep regret due to having this ritual performed.
I don't see how, just because it is POSSIBLE to climax, people can justify taking away so much feeling. There are a lot of stimulating nerves in the part that is cut off. The lack of pull on the shaft makes it more painful and difficult to obtain sexual relief, as well as the obvious health issues
@dann203 - "Have you ever heard of a circumcised individual go "I wish I had that extra skin back, what were my parents thinking, how dare they without my permission! Sadistic maniacs."
@dann203 Me as well... I am in my early 30's and have been slowly and noticeably losing sensitivity in the glans since I was about 23 it began.... I thought I had an issue with erectile dysfunction until I figured out it's because the glans aren't meant to be exposed so I learned about taping the shaft skin over the glans to keep it protected/moisturized as foreskin would do and after 4 months it feels like I am 18 again and because it is so sensitive I no longer have problems staying erect.
Hitchens emphasizes that he is not only talking about Judaism and circumcision of males. what about the girls who get their vaginas deformed in horrible ways? Why unnecessarily mess with a perfectly fine body of children? There might be medical cases where circumcision is necessary and that of course is fine. But just out of religious traditions?
When my boys were born, it was still very common to have them circumcised. I was when I was born. My first reaction was "over my fucking dead body are they touching my kid". (me to my ex-wife)
The Rabbi is totally immune to Hitchens. He will never change his mind or consider his own religion retarded. What the rabbi does under the influence of his backwards religion makes him feel superior and no amount of honest thought on the matter will help. He is hopeless.
It is just as true that circmcised men may win a Nobel Peace prize as it is that circumcised men may commit mass murder/ suicide. It has to do with the degree of sexual trauma inflicted and type of education, religious or scientific, that is avaliable. Now circumcised men who are educated scientifically, other than " creation science", are speaking out against this non peaceful unnecessary sacrifice in order to preserve the peace with out even trying to win a prize.
I'm not against anyone, but isn't being circumcised more healthy because you wouldn't have as high of a chance of getting an infection on your genital area than if you have?
Excuse the bad french but - Only if you live in a filthy virus ridden shithole of a country. In which case you have a huge chance of catching an infection during the operation.
Infection without circumcision results from not cleaning yourself properly. However lets say that this is indeed the case. The argument isn't 'is circumcision healthy'. It is "Is it okay to do it in the name of a God." If that child grows up and decides that he wants a circumcision the choice should be up to the child. Not to an imaginary God, and parents. :-) Good Question!
This Rabbi deserves the verbal beating that he recieves. To trivialize involuntary infant circumcision to a simple boys hair cut is not only dishonest, offensive and condesending, it tells about this Rabbi's character. He is willfully ignorant of the pain involved in having some of the most sensitive nerve laden tissue cut off, and just because the baby did not cry does not mean that the infant was not in a great deal of pain. Kudos to Hitchens for taking this Rabbi behind the woodshed
I had an unusually tight foreskin. By the age of 15 I was still unable to fully retract it. As little as 10 years before I saw my GP in Britain about this, he would have recommended a circumsision without hesitation. Thanks to modern science, however, I was instead prescribed a very cheap, simple steroid cream, the application of which fixed the problem completely within 4 months.
Thank you, science, for allowing me to overcome the problem while preserving my bodily integrity.
@elsparx Don't get me wrong, I am an atheist but I just do not agree with this form of dismissive arrogance that Hitchins exhibits. I think it is unfair to view male circumcision as anything other than a cultural tradition, let alone genital mutilation! If Hitchens were a real evolutionary scientist, he would realise that there is no such thing as morality from such an objectivist standpoint, just a collection of opinions expressed by different cultures.
@teddynyman I'll admit that he can come across as arrogant and offensive. I myself do not agree with it unless there is a genuine medical reason behind removing a piece of your penis. While it may be acceptable in the western world to do this, in other areas it is far more extreme and I think Hitchens associates what happens in the west with the extreme cases of genetal mutilation in places like Africa and the Middle East. I think he views it as differing shades of the same colour.
@elsparx I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. Hitchens claims to support reason, but there is no reason to believe in such ideas as 'right' or 'wrong' whatsoever, just differing expressions. If he were to really follow through with his own reasoning and look a little deeper, past his own blinkered opinions, he would realise that however 'beastly' certain actions may seem, they all carry the same weight and that his beliefs are just as irrelevant as the rabbi's.
@elsparx He takes an almost religious stance in his hatred towards the rabbi's views and his arrogance outweighs his reason. So no, Hitchens does not 'school' the rabbi they just express different opinions.
What evidence is needed. Genital mutilation is wrong. We intuitively recognize it for girls. Only because of cultural bias is that not recognized for boys too. Europeans think we're crazy for mutilating out boys, and rightly so.
No clear thinking person holds down a child and take a knife to their genitals, regardless of the gender of the child.
Yeah, lots of people who think cutting off a useless and disease-prone flap of skin is the most horrible mutilation in the world also think that pointlessly killing a different tree every year so it can be placed in their living rooms for no reason whatever is cool.
P.S. In case you haven't noticed, Hitchens advances no argument in this video. Mr. "Reason" simply uses selected terminology and acts disgusted.
@zaphod71828 And rightly so; it is routine genital mutilation, not natural genital anatomy, that is disgusting. I can assure you that the foreskin is not useless and no more disease prone than any other body-part. Hitchens doesn't go into much detail on the subject, and may not even be aware of the detail, but he does advance an argument. He says that circumcision is fantastically painful, leads to trauma, leads to the dulling of the sexual relationship, and can in itself be life-threatening.
@zaphod71828 He also advances the argument that the cutting off of healthy body-parts from the genitals is no different when done to boys or girls. It is illogical and sexist to say that it is okay to cut off the prepuce of boys but not of girls.
@zaphod71828 It's illogical because the male and female prepuce are analogous organs. Why is it okay to cut it off a boy but not a girl? Why is a boy's prepuce useless but a girl's prepuce not? Why is a boy's prepuce so problematic and negative but a girl's prepuce isn't? There is no reason given. Cultures that circumcise girls make very similar claims about the female genitals as male circumcising cultures make about males.
@zaphod71828 If the penis is dirty then the vagina is dirtier, so why aren't we altering girls too? Every culture that alters girls' genitals also alters boys' genitals. If the foreskin is dirty then why aren't eyelids dirty?
It is sexist because girls have a right to genital integrity but boys don't. Girls are protected by law from genital mutilation while boys aren't. There is not equality under the law. This is sexual discrimination.
@zaphod71828 In a culture where boys must have short hair and girls must have long hair you could say there may be an element of sexism, if not ignorance and immaturity. But hair grows back and when people are adults they can decide how they want to wear their hair (if they weren't given the choice as children). Foreskin doesn't grow back. A circumcised boy can never decide to become intact again. It is a permanent amputation of a natural healthy body-part.
@zaphod71828 If it was useless then evolution would not of kept it around for this long. Disease-prone? I'm not circumcised and I have never had any kind of genetal condition. It's really not that hard to keep yourself clean. The foreskin isn't some kind of lead wall that is impossible to get behind you know.
@zaphod71828 Evolution is the process of beneficial mutations taking precidence over detrimental mutations in the gene pool. The appendix is like the tailbone, a reminder that we came from something else. The foreskin actually serves a purpose. Your tree = foreskin argument was awful by the way.
@zaphod71828 It protects the developing penis in eutro, it serves the purpose of keeping the glans moist. Also it has been noted that an uncircumcised male has many more nerve endings in the foreskin which increase sexual pleasure. Those to me seem like 3 reasons why it's still around.
@elsparx What does "in eutro" mean? "Eutro" is not a word that I can find in any known dictionary. If you mean "in utero," um, circumcision doesn't occur until after birth. Moreover, there seems to be a lot of sexual pleasure going in in circumcised cultures, so I don't see an increase in sexual pleasure as a driving factor.
@zaphod71828 The point I'm trying to make is this. Unless there is a genuine medial reason to take a child and remove part of their penis then it should not be done. Why remove it if it will cause no serious problems? As Hitchens states and as I've also read, young boys, some as young as 2 years old have died from this practice due to infections where the rabbi has removed the excess skin WITH HIS MOUTH. These kind of practices hold no place in the western world.
@elsparx Anyone who engages in such practice should be locked up, no questions asked. That is just disgusting. If Sandusky was Jewish he might be able to get away with pedophilia based on that sick and barbaric practice. They should be ashamed!
Hah,American dummies in full swing in here,that's how you guys are known here in Finland..your reputation has exceeded..But let's go to the issue in hand!!Foreskin is a part of skin which is a organ..Would you abuse some part of your liver the same way if it was forced upon you by judaism??it's that simple,don't fucking touch that thing,it's meant to be there..
I'm an American, with a liberal activist mother who chose not to have me circumsized. I'm not ashamed of it, but in America sometimes it's a little hard. So many people are circumsized in this country it's become almost a societal norm. I've never been rejected by a girl in bed, but there have been plenty of times where the mood has suddenly come to a halt just because the girl has never seen a foreskin before. Sometimes it's tough ;_;
You've got what many of us wish we had. You have normal intact genitalia. Be thankful. Many of us are denied sex as nature intended it, because puritanical retards decided for us that pleasure was immoral.
my favourite hitchslap - chris i love you so much - well done well done
for taking on kissinger well done well done you were never born and you will never die - chris is eternal immortal consciousness
what a bronze age prehistoric disgusting sacrificial practice - child afuckingbuse end of
amital moshi - murdered at 8 days old in hampstead by a rabbi who cut this newborn darling - how fucking dare they - and the coroner said his death 28 mins after the act had nothing to do with it
Circumcision is performed in the United States more times than not on newborn baby boys for reasons that have nothing to do with religion - it prevents infections later in life. It's no different than having your appendix removed.
@fortyandfabulous That is wrong. Even if you were right then why don't we perform pre-emptive appendectomies on babies? This is ludicrous. The foreskin, like the appendix, has functions. This is apparent to anyone who owns one. The standard of care for infection is antibiotics, not amputation. Girls are much more likely to develop UTIs than boys, yet we don't circumcise girls. Most UTIs and STIs are minor problems that can be treated. You don't remove valuable healthy sexual tissue.
I also think hitchens displayed the classic "straw man" logical fallacy. He takes the Rabbi's comment of a haircut hurting more and keeps saying that "genital mutilation isn't a joke" over and over again rather than elaborating more on what he said about the actual effects of circumcision.
You had pro-hunt people coming up with arguments like "the fox enjoys being chased." "The fox appreciates the exercise!"
A complete insult to anyone's intelligence just like this "haircut" comment. A dreadful statement to make in comparison to the appalling uneccesary long-term suffering of children at the hands of religiously brainwashed fuckwits.
@MatthewLedZepfan The evidence is there, so the case is already won. What's left is convincing the audience that, already in principle, that kind of action (or any tribal ritual passed on through generations without some critical thinking) is immoral and primitive. The rabbi responds then poorly through personal experiences, as any theist does on any matter.
I agree with Hitchens but I honestly think he could have been a little more resepctful. Not just because he's talking to a Rabbi but because he's a human being.
@MatthewLedZepfan That's not Hitchens' style. He did operate within parameters of respect as defined by social standards. But he doesn't care what others think about him and he has no problem with interrupting people (which can be considered rude if done to excess). There is no doubting that he is an arrogant man. But the subject of male genital mutilation (as routinely forced upon babies) should inspire more anger and revulsion than it does, and it is good to see Hitchens expressing that here.
@MatthewLedZepfan The problem is that circumcision has become a joke in modern western culture, especially in the USA and Jewish societies. The forced genital cutting of infants is minimalised and trivialised to the point of becoming a punchline. This is part of how circumcising cultures deal with their own mutilation and castration. You will find circumcision parodied on almost every American sitcom, comedy show, and drama. But genital mutilation is no joke and more people should speak out.
trident, dude the biggest reason to do it is that it is UGLY. it looks so much better without. i dont care about sensation or other nonsense. its F'ing ugly
@intenseca I disagree, and so do millions of other people. I think a circumcised penis is much more unattractive. It has had parts amputated. It has scar tissue. The glans is rough and dry and discoloured. There is discolouration of the shaft skin. There can be skin bridges, skin tags, chunks missing , twisted skin, excessive scar tissue, and worse.
The entire history of western art depicts only intact males, and many cultures celebrated the foreskin. It is normal in most places.
@intenseca How about you leave the decision of Cosmetic Surgery to the person whose body it is. Cutting off parts of babies' genitals because you think they look ugly is weird and twisted and perverted and sick. Your mind has become warped and it would behoove you to transcend the shackles of your unhealthy conditioning. If you were born in Europe you might well be saying that cut dicks look ugly.
And if an intact penis is "ugly" then what does that make an intact vagina?
it is a fucking disgusting bronze age practise. religious cunts who inflict this terrible pain upon their children is a fucking outrage. i am generally a calm and civil person, but this BOILS MY BLOOD. seriously i am so heated in this moment just from listening to this pathetic old rabbi, what a disgustingly immoral man, that he feels he is honoring GOD and his LAW, its fucking AWFUL!! I am cut myself, and i can tell you it is no joke. I almost died when i was 3 years old. IT IS NO JOKE PEOPLE!!
@jaylias bloody hell mate. I'm sad to learn of this especially done to you at age 3. At that age you were able to have the sensation of being taken away & having something done to you that is traumatic & utterly vile. If I were you I would track down the bastard that did this to you ("doctor or surgeon") & slam his brains out or at least sue him. Be a role model & sue him! Please! Make millions out of the bastard! They should have known better. I'd also disown my parents, instantly, for life.
Some boys have to get their foreskins taken off for medical reason because it can effect them, but doctors are just taken it off for no apparent reason then yes, they are fucking wrong and the parents are too and that needs to be stopped.
@sexicapicorn I have to say that I don't believe there is ever a medical reason for this act. There are as many "problems" with the foreskin as there are with the little finger at birth, namely none. The foreskin should be left alone. Period. It can take till the age of 10 or more until it comes back and only comes back during errection etc. There are just excuses all the time for this barbaric act. It is totally unnecessary. They r 2 Leave it as one leaves eyelids & the clitoris etc. Leave it.
@trident3b When a baby gets an infection, has problems peeing, and is in pain because of their foreskin and can only be fixed by circumcision then yes theres a medical reason and btw they do cut off the clitoris ever heard of FGM its mostly popular in some African tribes and Islamic cultures even tho they only do for barbaric reasons they say keep the woman from being promiscuous which is bullshit.Anyway if I have a son and the doc says my son penis is healthy than no I wont get it circumcised.
@sexicapicorn the scenario you describe is in 99.99% of births not an issue equally as much as new borns have no problems with closing their eyelids or moving their arms. It is a US (& religious)obsession with cutting genitals as well as it being a billion $ business in the US that also causes these hideous acts. It shouldn't even be assumed to be a problem where statistically there is just never a problem, no more a problem than eyelids. Sure I know about FGM, & the same applies, both criminal.
@trident3b I agree with you if there is not a problem leave it alone and if I have a son I'm not unless there's a medical reason. And I stated before if the doctor are just cutting it off for no apparent reason(well money) then it's wrong and I would love if it stopped internationally.
Did you know rabbis suck the blood from the wound? I was stunned when i saw this and thought it can't be true but it is, there was even a report that a baby got herpes and died because of it and now they should use a sterile length of surgical tubing.
I don't know anything about Judaism or about this but it still surprised me when i read that.
It was done to me at the hospital. I'm missing part of my dick and I fucking hate you and all you who support this. To hell with you crazed baby mutilators. You should be rotting in prison like other baby rapers.
Check out foregen - They're raising 200,000 dollars through viewer donations to regenerate everything lost to circumcision through regenerative medicine in their clinical trial of foreskin regeneration. You can find out more at foregen.org
When I was born, my parents were convinced by quack doctors that "everybody" gets circumcised, and were duped into letting a child predator rape and mutilate my body. I think that bastard should die by state execution, and I have the same hatred for the parents who still deliberately and knowingly advocate this practice, and the sick fucks like you who think it is your "right" to mutilate boys for your sick fetish or religion.
@stopglobalswarming So you were snipped. And what side effects do you attribute to having been snipped? How do you know whatever these side effects were, that they are caused by you having been snipped?
@truevoiceofsanity You are intentionally trying to be provocative by minimising and trivialising the situation and someone else's discontent. You are repeatedly using the euphamism 'snipped' for this reason. We all know that socalled circumcision (another euphamism) involves more than a "quick snip". Most hospital circumcisions involve ripping and tearing and clamping and crushing and then cutting. Even if it was able to be performed in "one fell swoop" that doesn't make it any better.
@stopglobalswarming Part 2: Were you "snipped" by a moyel? I think, if your procedure was medical, its silly to claim you were "raped". Anyway, I look forward to hearing about the side effects you've suffered by having been mutiliated.
@truevoiceofsanity you are missing the point. very few, if any person who was cut as a child, remembers it or necessarily suffer ill effects from it. if a baby girl is circumcised at 8 days, will she remember? and if she doesn't, does that make the practice less barbaric to you (or do you approve of it)?
your supposition that those of us who are objecting aren't cut is a bizarre one. we don't necessarily suffer ill effects.
@truevoiceofsanity but we have come to realize that there is something very sinister about the whole thing that should be opposed. you've dodged it repeatedly: do you believe there is a benign entity in the sky that wants the foreskins of little boys? (indeed, if the president were to demand that tomorrow, we would move to impeach almost immediately, or do you deny that?). and it seems to me, if you are going to posit that it is not harmful, you should have the answers to my other ?s.
@bethnor Do I believe in God? No. Do I think its sinister? Well, no, not really. Your questions might convince me as a parent to think twice first. At the end of the day, I know multiple sides of this issue exist and its not clear cut enough to justify legislating it.
@truevoiceofsanity what's the other side of the issue? is there a good reason other than satisfying an invisible being in the sky? why do you wish to "respect" that? do you "respect" muslims who use the koran to justify hitting their wives? do you "respect" the jewish prayer to wake up thanking god for not making you female or a goy? do you "respect" the christian use of the bible to persecute homosexuals?
@truevoiceofsanity so you think there's nothing sinister about thinking that babies won't be normal until you cut them, even if you are not of that religious faith.
@truevoiceofsanity so, let's for argument sake say there is a small town somewhere where the mayor says he has a deal with his townsfolk. part of this deal involves giving him half the foreskins of all the town's newborn boys. there's nothing sinister about that?
the corollary of this question is, if you believe there is, why do you say there's nothing sinister about doing the same for an omniscient invisible sky being?
@bethnor People believe strange things, life is short. don't sweat the small stuff. I don't know the logic behind jewisj theology. Again, the mythology of guns scares me more.
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RavenousSky 1 month ago
I'm sexually anhedoniac. I read this mutilation could be a cause. It really is no joke.
kjuyhfklujhkuyf 1 month ago
@kjuyhfklujhkuyf do you cry at haircuts, HAHA *audience laughs* - bigotry
theafi99000 1 month ago
there isn't enough limestone or marble on this earth that could hold the genius of hitchens words.
euroman32589 1 month ago
I agree with Hitchens on this one
Roonoon2 2 months ago
Its easy. Let the child (male or female) grow to adult hood and let them make their own choice. Seems simple to me. Hitch as usual is bang on. Religion makes good people do evil (as we all know from the news).
csadler 2 months ago 9
@csadler "Religion makes good people do evil (as we all know from the news)."
I sure hope you aren't speaking about Islamic radicalism. You don't need to be religious to be put into an irrational state of mind. You just need the right motivations, which the jews have given to people who so happen to be Muslim. Even an Atheist can be driven to do things that are considered "evil". Furthermore, there are 1.5 BILLION Muslims, I think they are handling themselves just fine, as a whole, considering.
TheWanderinSoul 1 week ago
@TheWanderinSoul Oh, yes the Muslims are so good. Whats going on now.... Well Muslims are killing people over the burning of a book... Their women are treated as second class citizens - thats 1/2 the population right there. Not a day goes by that theres not a bomb going off in Iraq as the Muslims there kill each other of what *kind* of Muslim they are. Islam, by DEFINITION is a delusion... one that people kill over. How sick is that.
csadler 1 week ago
@TheWanderinSoul "A large crowd swarmed a military base and numerous demonstrations turned deadly Friday in Afghanistan, the fourth day of fallout from the burning of Qurans by NATO troops, officials said."
Killing over a book. A book of myths, and bronze aged nonsense. Kill over it. Only in Islam. Religion is a virus of the mind and Islam is the most potent strain of this sick virus.
csadler 1 week ago
@csadler There are over 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Yet, they have little influence. There are less than 14 million jews. Yet, they have the most political, and economical influence of ANY other group. They influence is being used to carry out a genocidal war, aimed at those 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Yet, only a VERY small fraction, of those 1.5 BILLION people, behave irrationally to an agenda that has tortured, and murdered, MILLIONS, upon MILLIONS, over THOUSANDS of years.
TheWanderinSoul 1 week ago
@TheWanderinSoul "agenda that has tortured, and murdered, MILLIONS, upon MILLIONS, over THOUSANDS of years"
You are full of shit. You religion is a murderous cult (all religions are cults) but yours is the worst. You kill over books..... over books of myths. Animals....
csadler 6 days ago
@csadler First off, I am not a Muslim. I am an objective observer. Secondly, whether it be because the book was burned, or because the book itself told them to do it; all those religions support killing over a mythical book.
TheWanderinSoul 6 days ago
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@TheWanderinSoul " all those religions support killing over a mythical book."
But it seems the Muslims are the only ones doing it. When was the last time a girl in a non Muslim society had acid tossed in her face because she dared to go to school? What about women's rights in the Muslim world? Is not a women in Pakistan going to be killed for being a Blasphemer? The Muslim religion (all religions) is a retardation of the human species.
csadler 6 days ago
@csadler "Killing over a book."
Only 7 people died. Most of which were probably Muslims, who died at the hands of those who were trying to stop the protest. Out of 1.5 BILLION people, that could have been horribly offended by the unjust burning of religious texts, that situation turned out pretty well.
As for the oppression of woman, the jew's texts depict women as just as subordinate.
TheWanderinSoul 1 week ago
@TheWanderinSoul "Only 7 people died." - are you sick??? thats 7 too many.
"As for the oppression of woman, the jew's texts depict women as just as subordinate."
But they don't practice it - your cult does.
csadler 6 days ago
@csadler "thats 7 too many"
You are misunderstanding the context in which I am referring to. Considering how many people have been horrifically oppressed, tortured, and murdered, for THOUSANDS of years, the fact that only 7 people died, is astounding.
Do you even understand the kind of devastating, demoralizing, mentally debilitating tension in that part of the world? Do you even understand why it's that way in the first place?
TheWanderinSoul 6 days ago
@TheWanderinSoul " been horrifically oppressed, tortured, and murdered, for THOUSANDS of years" yes, our history is bad... but these barbaric animals show no sign of progress do they?
' the fact that only 7 people died, is astounding." Really? Tell that to their families.
" mentally debilitating tension in that part of the world? Do you even understand why it's that way in the first place?"
Religion. And a fight over land that is claimed holy by *Religion*.
csadler 6 days ago
@csadler "these barbaric animals show no sign of progress do they?"
They do. You just need to look for it. Also, it doesn't help that they keep getting knocked so far back. It's difficult to evolve when you're constantly being worrying about more immediate issues.
TheWanderinSoul 6 days ago
@TheWanderinSoul Maybe they should step up and help their brothers in Syria? Funny, they do nothing to stop this slaughter and eventually the West will have to step in.
csadler 6 days ago
@csadler Who is "they"?
TheWanderinSoul 6 days ago
@TheWanderinSoul The Muslim countries that are sitting and watching the killing.
csadler 6 days ago
@csadler Have you not been paying attention to the revolution that has been spreading across the world? The people are taking their countries back. They are progressing. Perhaps, you should too.
TheWanderinSoul 6 days ago
@csadler "Really? Tell that to their families."
You know where I am coming from. Stop twisting it.
"Religion. And a fight over land that is claimed holy by *Religion*."
Both sides are to blame.
"Religion - is the virus that causes this."
It is. But, again, both sides are at fault.
TheWanderinSoul 6 days ago
@TheWanderinSoul Further, the Muslim secs killing each other over their *version* of Islam. Religion - is the virus that causes this. Tell me its not.
csadler 6 days ago
@csadler "But they don't practice it - your cult does"
All the mentioned religions are making changes to incorporate womens' rights, and even changing how women are being viewed and treated, regardless of how many radical conservatives try to manipulate those philosophies to fit their demented agendas. Most jews do not partake in the decisions making process that has caused the turmoil that we are seeing in that part of the world. Same goes for the Muslims.
TheWanderinSoul 6 days ago
@TheWanderinSoul I see no progress for Women in Islam. None. Honor killings in Islamic families here in my country! Young girls killed because they dared have a boy friend. Sick.
csadler 6 days ago
@csadler The only difference between the Muslim radicalists, and the jewish radicalist, is their political, and economical power.
TheWanderinSoul 6 days ago
@TheWanderinSoul Wrong. There is one major difference. While I agree the Jewish state has their problems and has their religious zealots they are no where near as dangerous as Islam. The death spread by the Islamic cult is horrendous. All you have to do is read the news every day.
csadler 6 days ago
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@csadler "The death spread by the Islamic cult is horrendous. All you have to do is read the news every day."
Islam isn't turning people into radicals, desperation is. They are desperate for a reason, which I have explained.
TheWanderinSoul 6 days ago
@csadler "Islam, by DEFINITION is a delusion... one that people kill over."
So is christianity, and judaism. Your arguments are horribly weak.
TheWanderinSoul 1 week ago
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@TheWanderinSoul " "Islam, by DEFINITION is a delusion... one that people kill over."
So is christianity, and judaism. Your arguments are horribly weak."
I agree, christianityis sick, so is judaism... you are pushing an open door with me on that one. But the discussion here was Islam - remember? Try and stay on track.
csadler 6 days ago
@csadler Also, if you want to talk about one barbaric act over another, then lets talk about how judaism promotes the oral "healing" of a boy's penis.
youtube com/watch?v=N4wwaUB7Fgo
TheWanderinSoul 1 week ago
@TheWanderinSoul I would agree with you 100 % on judaism and the sick acts that it promotes (this video for one). It is a virus on the mind as well - all religions are. So are the Quakers, but they don't kill and stay to them selves.
csadler 6 days ago
Circumcision in the US is not a particularly religious tradition but instead yet another example of sexual repression in the US. Look up people like John Harvey Kellogg and see the roots of the continuation of this horrid practice. As for the health benefits, they are non-existent besides taking an extra five seconds to clean the penis. The practice goes back to weird old men's "morals" that forbade little boys from touching themselves, which we all know is such an incredible evil.
Greenster529 2 months ago 14
@Greenster529 It's more accurate to say that circumcision in the US is NO LONGER a particularly religious tradition.
I have yet to see sexual repression "traditions" that don't stem from religious practice or precepts. Including Harvey Kellogg's crusade for abstinence and against masturbation... at any cost...
UnholyOffice 1 month ago
@UnholyOffice
I find it particulary ironic that one of the best meals that can keep you going in your sexual life is a bowl of cereals with milk in the morning :)
claschxtreme 1 month ago
@Greenster529 It's roots are religious and it is a religious symbol marked into the flesh, many Christian parents do it in the US because they think it is a Christian thing to do even if they don't fully understand what it means just as my own parents. It may not be religious for everyone, but I couldn't imagine a non-religous or atheist perpetrating this act on a child knowing it is a irreversible religious symbol.
I absolutely agree with you on all other points though and applaud them.
RavenousSky 1 month ago
"For it is a barbarous thing to meet a newly born infant with the knife, with a deliberate mutilation. And the part that is removed is not negligible; it has clear and valuable functions to perform. Not circumcising a boy will not only spare him a brutal violence as he enters life; it will promise him a richer existence." ~ George Wald, Jewish American scientist, Nobel Prize winner in Physiology or Medicine 1967
TheDarkSideHasTacos 2 months ago 6
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"For it is a barbarous thing to meet a newly born infant with the knife, with a deliberate mutilation. And the part that is removed is not negligible; it has clear and valuable functions to perform. Not circumcising a boy will not only spare him a brutal violence as he enters life; it will promise him a richer existence."
~ George Wald, Jewish American scientist, Nobel Prize winner in Physiology or Medicine 1967
FamilyPenis 2 months ago
Religion also propels inhumane treatment of animals. When an animal is killed for meat the western practice is to stun the animal first, then let the blood out.
In judaism and islam when producing kosher- and halal-meat the practice is to cut the throat open from a completely concious animal. In my country this would be punishable as animal torture.
Mornys 3 months ago 6
Genital mutilation is no joke.
endofscene 3 months ago
Skippyz1210
We are not talking about abortion. The subject is genital mutilation. Stay on subject thank you. Mutilation of the male and female genitalia in a religious context is far removed from those requiring this procedure as a result of a genuine medical condition. As I said in my previous post, the people who inflict this procedure in a religious context are pedophiles. Filthy, disgusting pedophiles.
shzode 4 months ago
Female circumcision involves removal of sexual parts and should NOT be performed. Male circumc. has been clinically proven to help prevent STDs enormously (approx. 50%) including gonorrhea. Improves cleanliness. When performed by an exper'd physican, low complications. Hitchins shows his hypocrisy w/this issue: Unsafe abortions account for about 68,000 deaths per year (abortion also leads to suicide among many women; other complicats.), yet Hitchens supports freedom of choice with abortion.
SkippyZ1210 4 months ago
@SkippyZ1210 Female circumcision is in most cases a misnomer, and so in most cases FGM is a more appropriate term. Having said this, there are at least 5 types of FGM itentified by the UN with several sub types for eact type. FGM type 1A is exactly the same as male circumcision. However, it is called mutilation.
Secondly, the hygiene comment is a myth. Whether male or female a persons genitals are only as clean as the owner wants them to be.
neechee5150 4 months ago 6
@neechee5150 Well just about that hygiene myth . Im not circumcised but it seem logical to me that its a harder to keep clean uncircumcised penis because there you have a pocket like area where "dirt" is most likely to accumulate . Where in the circumcised penis that are is removed . Of course that they are clean as owner wants them . But if He doesnt care much about that I think that circumcised penis would be cleaner by default .
hldemi 2 months ago
@SkippyZ1210 "Male circumc. has been clinically proven to help prevent STDs enormously (approx. 50%)"
Hogwash! Cite your source!
@"Unsafe abortions account for about 68,000 deaths per year"
"Unsafe abortions" only occur where it's outlawed, and only among the poor.
@"{abortion also leads to suicide among many women; other complicats)"
So does post partum depression. And let's not forget about matricides by women ill-equipped for motherhood.
emfederin 4 months ago
@emfederin In the civilised world we use condoms to avoid sexually transmitted pathogens.
We don’t cut any part of our children while trying to rationalise a barbaric custom from the bronze age.
Personal hygiene is another subject that we deal with in a civilised culture. I’m sure you’ve heard of water and soap.
Ridiculous outdated customs and even more ridiculous logical fallacies presented as an “argument”.
eldadevata 3 months ago 3
@eldadevata "Ridiculous outdated customs and even more ridiculous logical fallacies presented as an “argument”
Agreed.
Just to make things clear, the absurdities in my comment were quotes that this "skippy" guy made which I was responding to.
emfederin 3 months ago
@SkippyZ1210 Cutting of the genitals, be they female or male, is still genital cutting. It doesn't matter if one believes or doesn't the statistics about STD's. As an adult male, I am perfectly capable of avoiding STD's through appropriate practices. I don't need to have my foreskin removed in order to do it. Hitchens is discussing religious practices here: many horrible things are done in the name of religion. I don't want someone telling me that I need a part of my body removed.
tommyrocket 2 months ago 5
This is child abuse in all it's forms. The people who inflict this horrible procedure on children should be sent to prison. They are no better than pedophiles. They seem to think that by calling themselves Rabbi's, this makes it ok. Well it's not. These people are predatory pedophiles who dress up their wicked and disgusting practices as some kind of religious ceremony. How disgusting! Shame on the Jewish pedophiles. Let's round them up and put them on trial.
shzode 4 months ago
DAYUM!!!!!! Cmon people Hitchens makes a point. Its ok on boys not girls. Although I believe they did an inconclusive study and found it split down the middle of uncircumcised people who then got the procedure and felt less stimulation afterwards.
Johnf85 4 months ago
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LethalDozePL 4 months ago
@Johnf85 he was born in UK I Im 120% sure he think male circ is just as disgusting as female
LethalDozePL 4 months ago
DAYUM!!!!!!
Johnf85 4 months ago
I had to get it done at the age of six due to my foreskin being too tight... I wish that never happened > . > I feel lost without a foreskin.
MSoltan1992 4 months ago
@MSoltan1992 there are MANY non-suregry methods to treat themosis if thats what you're talking baout, I hope you were informed about that by your doctor, circ'ing should be the last resort to fight this condition
LethalDozePL 4 months ago
@LethalDozePL I was six, dude. My parents probably just decided to go with mutilation.
MSoltan1992 4 months ago
@MSoltan1992 FOR CHRIST SAKE, I literally can't read what you posted. "only 50% of boys are retractable by age ten" PLS google "Phony Phimosis Diagnosis" and read the article. USA wake up
LethalDozePL 4 months ago
@LethalDozePL I'm Australian, lol.
MSoltan1992 4 months ago
@MSoltan1992 still :)parents are not educated by doctors and agree to this unnecessary surgery out of unnecessary fear
cirp (dot) org / library / normal /
LethalDozePL 4 months ago
time to outlaw it in all counties and start sending parents to prison.only then are we gonna stop this disgusting blight on humanity.
ShoutingQuietly 5 months ago
I've never seen something blown so out of proportion, it's a fucking circumcision, not genocide. Jewish kids aren't emotionally scared for life after, nor do their dicks function any worse than someone who's uncircumcised. Ever been to a circumcision? The baby cries for no longer than 10 seconds. I'm not for religion but come on, comparing cutting off useless skin to destroying the entire vagina? Circumcisions make the dick look cleaner anyway, girls like it, stop crying Hitchens
dann203 5 months ago
@dann203 I absolutely agree! That's why I had my newborn son get a nose-job - because it looks better!
So what if he has to suffer the consequences of reduced feeling and will never know the sensations of having a real nose. It looks better, and to that end I am completely comfortable taking these liberties with someones body
TheReggaeMortis 5 months ago
@TheReggaeMortis can you name me one circumcised individual who's had an issue climaxing due to lack of feeling because of his circumcision? Have you ever heard of a circumcised individual go "I wish I had that extra skin back, what were my parents thinking, how dare they without my permission! Sadistic maniacs." The horrors of having less pull on your dick, please, this is a non issue, Hitchens likes to blow everything out of proportion, like sex through a sheet which is a completely bogus myth
dann203 5 months ago
@dann203 I don't really care for his confrontational attitude, either.
A quick Google search will show a lot of both parents and children who experience deep regret due to having this ritual performed.
I don't see how, just because it is POSSIBLE to climax, people can justify taking away so much feeling. There are a lot of stimulating nerves in the part that is cut off. The lack of pull on the shaft makes it more painful and difficult to obtain sexual relief, as well as the obvious health issues
TheReggaeMortis 5 months ago
@dann203 - Young men die each year in South Africa from circumcision and indeed do so around the world
ricko1111 4 months ago
@dann203 - "Have you ever heard of a circumcised individual go "I wish I had that extra skin back, what were my parents thinking, how dare they without my permission! Sadistic maniacs."
Yes, when I say it.
wseerldnoeoedfry 2 months ago
@dann203 Me as well... I am in my early 30's and have been slowly and noticeably losing sensitivity in the glans since I was about 23 it began.... I thought I had an issue with erectile dysfunction until I figured out it's because the glans aren't meant to be exposed so I learned about taping the shaft skin over the glans to keep it protected/moisturized as foreskin would do and after 4 months it feels like I am 18 again and because it is so sensitive I no longer have problems staying erect.
RavenousSky 1 month ago
@dann203
Hitchens emphasizes that he is not only talking about Judaism and circumcision of males. what about the girls who get their vaginas deformed in horrible ways? Why unnecessarily mess with a perfectly fine body of children? There might be medical cases where circumcision is necessary and that of course is fine. But just out of religious traditions?
lanzelotz26 4 months ago
@dann203 - "The baby cries for no longer than 10 seconds."
And then they're in shock, and people think 'he slept through it'.
"useless skin"
The only people who think it's useless are the ones that don't have it. Sour grapes.
wseerldnoeoedfry 2 months ago 3
If you're a Jew then FUCK YOU...from one of the 'heard'...
hdmccart 5 months ago
When my boys were born, it was still very common to have them circumcised. I was when I was born. My first reaction was "over my fucking dead body are they touching my kid". (me to my ex-wife)
GawdOfThunder 5 months ago
Plus uncut looks better.
dyne313 5 months ago
The Rabbi is totally immune to Hitchens. He will never change his mind or consider his own religion retarded. What the rabbi does under the influence of his backwards religion makes him feel superior and no amount of honest thought on the matter will help. He is hopeless.
kaduisaui 6 months ago 2
It is just as true that circmcised men may win a Nobel Peace prize as it is that circumcised men may commit mass murder/ suicide. It has to do with the degree of sexual trauma inflicted and type of education, religious or scientific, that is avaliable. Now circumcised men who are educated scientifically, other than " creation science", are speaking out against this non peaceful unnecessary sacrifice in order to preserve the peace with out even trying to win a prize.
freddyeddyr 6 months ago
That is one angry sinner!
virtualguitarist 6 months ago
@virtualguitarist Hell yeah - and he calls himself a Jew!?
hdmccart 5 months ago
I'm not against anyone, but isn't being circumcised more healthy because you wouldn't have as high of a chance of getting an infection on your genital area than if you have?
somali4freestyle 7 months ago
@somali4freestyle
Excuse the bad french but - Only if you live in a filthy virus ridden shithole of a country. In which case you have a huge chance of catching an infection during the operation.
Peace.
Tait011 7 months ago
@somali4freestyle
Infection without circumcision results from not cleaning yourself properly. However lets say that this is indeed the case. The argument isn't 'is circumcision healthy'. It is "Is it okay to do it in the name of a God." If that child grows up and decides that he wants a circumcision the choice should be up to the child. Not to an imaginary God, and parents. :-) Good Question!
papermermaid 7 months ago
this is why hitchens is the man
bigduo16 7 months ago 29
I think that good religions make people good, and bad religions make people bad. Duh!
aaa333ify 8 months ago
@aaa333ify None of them are good. Do your homework.
xomiakas 7 months ago
Circumcision is torture. You have no right to torture your child.
aaa333ify 8 months ago
This Rabbi deserves the verbal beating that he recieves. To trivialize involuntary infant circumcision to a simple boys hair cut is not only dishonest, offensive and condesending, it tells about this Rabbi's character. He is willfully ignorant of the pain involved in having some of the most sensitive nerve laden tissue cut off, and just because the baby did not cry does not mean that the infant was not in a great deal of pain. Kudos to Hitchens for taking this Rabbi behind the woodshed
neechee5150 8 months ago
I had an unusually tight foreskin. By the age of 15 I was still unable to fully retract it. As little as 10 years before I saw my GP in Britain about this, he would have recommended a circumsision without hesitation. Thanks to modern science, however, I was instead prescribed a very cheap, simple steroid cream, the application of which fixed the problem completely within 4 months.
Thank you, science, for allowing me to overcome the problem while preserving my bodily integrity.
vulnerabledonkey 8 months ago
Not taken a side here but, I must say an uncircumcised penis looks funny. =P
Aiges01 8 months ago
hitchens is an idiot
teddynyman 8 months ago
@teddynyman Any reason why you think that?
elsparx 8 months ago
@elsparx Don't get me wrong, I am an atheist but I just do not agree with this form of dismissive arrogance that Hitchins exhibits. I think it is unfair to view male circumcision as anything other than a cultural tradition, let alone genital mutilation! If Hitchens were a real evolutionary scientist, he would realise that there is no such thing as morality from such an objectivist standpoint, just a collection of opinions expressed by different cultures.
teddynyman 8 months ago
@teddynyman I'll admit that he can come across as arrogant and offensive. I myself do not agree with it unless there is a genuine medical reason behind removing a piece of your penis. While it may be acceptable in the western world to do this, in other areas it is far more extreme and I think Hitchens associates what happens in the west with the extreme cases of genetal mutilation in places like Africa and the Middle East. I think he views it as differing shades of the same colour.
elsparx 8 months ago
@elsparx I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. Hitchens claims to support reason, but there is no reason to believe in such ideas as 'right' or 'wrong' whatsoever, just differing expressions. If he were to really follow through with his own reasoning and look a little deeper, past his own blinkered opinions, he would realise that however 'beastly' certain actions may seem, they all carry the same weight and that his beliefs are just as irrelevant as the rabbi's.
teddynyman 8 months ago
@elsparx He takes an almost religious stance in his hatred towards the rabbi's views and his arrogance outweighs his reason. So no, Hitchens does not 'school' the rabbi they just express different opinions.
teddynyman 8 months ago
@teddynyman
What evidence is needed. Genital mutilation is wrong. We intuitively recognize it for girls. Only because of cultural bias is that not recognized for boys too. Europeans think we're crazy for mutilating out boys, and rightly so.
No clear thinking person holds down a child and take a knife to their genitals, regardless of the gender of the child.
brajamtho757 8 months ago 2
Hitch-slap
PerpetualMotion3 9 months ago
Yeah, lots of people who think cutting off a useless and disease-prone flap of skin is the most horrible mutilation in the world also think that pointlessly killing a different tree every year so it can be placed in their living rooms for no reason whatever is cool.
P.S. In case you haven't noticed, Hitchens advances no argument in this video. Mr. "Reason" simply uses selected terminology and acts disgusted.
zaphod71828 9 months ago
@zaphod71828 And rightly so; it is routine genital mutilation, not natural genital anatomy, that is disgusting. I can assure you that the foreskin is not useless and no more disease prone than any other body-part. Hitchens doesn't go into much detail on the subject, and may not even be aware of the detail, but he does advance an argument. He says that circumcision is fantastically painful, leads to trauma, leads to the dulling of the sexual relationship, and can in itself be life-threatening.
endofscene 9 months ago
@zaphod71828 He also advances the argument that the cutting off of healthy body-parts from the genitals is no different when done to boys or girls. It is illogical and sexist to say that it is okay to cut off the prepuce of boys but not of girls.
endofscene 9 months ago
@endofscene How is it illogical? How is it sexist? Is it sexist for a culture to say that boys have short hair and girls have long hair?
zaphod71828 9 months ago
@zaphod71828
Hair is not alive.
brajamtho757 8 months ago
@zaphod71828 It's illogical because the male and female prepuce are analogous organs. Why is it okay to cut it off a boy but not a girl? Why is a boy's prepuce useless but a girl's prepuce not? Why is a boy's prepuce so problematic and negative but a girl's prepuce isn't? There is no reason given. Cultures that circumcise girls make very similar claims about the female genitals as male circumcising cultures make about males.
endofscene 8 months ago 2
@zaphod71828 If the penis is dirty then the vagina is dirtier, so why aren't we altering girls too? Every culture that alters girls' genitals also alters boys' genitals. If the foreskin is dirty then why aren't eyelids dirty?
It is sexist because girls have a right to genital integrity but boys don't. Girls are protected by law from genital mutilation while boys aren't. There is not equality under the law. This is sexual discrimination.
endofscene 8 months ago 3
@zaphod71828 In a culture where boys must have short hair and girls must have long hair you could say there may be an element of sexism, if not ignorance and immaturity. But hair grows back and when people are adults they can decide how they want to wear their hair (if they weren't given the choice as children). Foreskin doesn't grow back. A circumcised boy can never decide to become intact again. It is a permanent amputation of a natural healthy body-part.
endofscene 8 months ago 3
@zaphod71828 If it was useless then evolution would not of kept it around for this long. Disease-prone? I'm not circumcised and I have never had any kind of genetal condition. It's really not that hard to keep yourself clean. The foreskin isn't some kind of lead wall that is impossible to get behind you know.
elsparx 8 months ago
@elsparx Evolution kept the appendix around. (As if "Evolution" is some conscious agent that can decide to do things.)
zaphod71828 8 months ago
@zaphod71828 Evolution is the process of beneficial mutations taking precidence over detrimental mutations in the gene pool. The appendix is like the tailbone, a reminder that we came from something else. The foreskin actually serves a purpose. Your tree = foreskin argument was awful by the way.
elsparx 8 months ago 2
@elsparx What purpose does the foreskin serve? If it was discussed in this thread, I don't remember, and I don't want to sift through lots of posts.
zaphod71828 8 months ago
@zaphod71828 It protects the developing penis in eutro, it serves the purpose of keeping the glans moist. Also it has been noted that an uncircumcised male has many more nerve endings in the foreskin which increase sexual pleasure. Those to me seem like 3 reasons why it's still around.
elsparx 8 months ago 3
@elsparx What does "in eutro" mean? "Eutro" is not a word that I can find in any known dictionary. If you mean "in utero," um, circumcision doesn't occur until after birth. Moreover, there seems to be a lot of sexual pleasure going in in circumcised cultures, so I don't see an increase in sexual pleasure as a driving factor.
zaphod71828 8 months ago
@zaphod71828 The point I'm trying to make is this. Unless there is a genuine medial reason to take a child and remove part of their penis then it should not be done. Why remove it if it will cause no serious problems? As Hitchens states and as I've also read, young boys, some as young as 2 years old have died from this practice due to infections where the rabbi has removed the excess skin WITH HIS MOUTH. These kind of practices hold no place in the western world.
elsparx 8 months ago
@elsparx Anyone who engages in such practice should be locked up, no questions asked. That is just disgusting. If Sandusky was Jewish he might be able to get away with pedophilia based on that sick and barbaric practice. They should be ashamed!
Crucifuck 2 months ago 3
Hah,American dummies in full swing in here,that's how you guys are known here in Finland..your reputation has exceeded..But let's go to the issue in hand!!Foreskin is a part of skin which is a organ..Would you abuse some part of your liver the same way if it was forced upon you by judaism??it's that simple,don't fucking touch that thing,it's meant to be there..
hemulinkulli 9 months ago
I'm an American, with a liberal activist mother who chose not to have me circumsized. I'm not ashamed of it, but in America sometimes it's a little hard. So many people are circumsized in this country it's become almost a societal norm. I've never been rejected by a girl in bed, but there have been plenty of times where the mood has suddenly come to a halt just because the girl has never seen a foreskin before. Sometimes it's tough ;_;
wutdaFU3K 9 months ago
Comment removed
brajamtho757 8 months ago
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@wutdaFU3K
You've got what many of us wish we had. You have normal intact genitalia. Be thankful. Many of us are denied sex as nature intended it, because puritanical retards decided for us that pleasure was immoral.
brajamtho757 8 months ago
That poor rabbi - nothing but a heap of supersituoun and sloppy thinking to defend himself against Hitchens. Game over man game over
uptheproverbialcreek 10 months ago
my favourite hitchslap - chris i love you so much - well done well done
for taking on kissinger well done well done you were never born and you will never die - chris is eternal immortal consciousness
what a bronze age prehistoric disgusting sacrificial practice - child afuckingbuse end of
amital moshi - murdered at 8 days old in hampstead by a rabbi who cut this newborn darling - how fucking dare they - and the coroner said his death 28 mins after the act had nothing to do with it
timewilltell7 10 months ago 2
Bravo on including the "mutilate" definition, bro. Bravo
SlayingMinion 10 months ago
I don't agree with Hitchens on many things but he is absolutely right on this one!
chopperbubba 10 months ago
Sagna!
nimpo46 10 months ago
Well done Hitchens, you put that moral shit bag in his place.
TheFlameoftheWest 11 months ago
Circumcision is performed in the United States more times than not on newborn baby boys for reasons that have nothing to do with religion - it prevents infections later in life. It's no different than having your appendix removed.
fortyandfabulous 11 months ago
@fortyandfabulous That is wrong. Even if you were right then why don't we perform pre-emptive appendectomies on babies? This is ludicrous. The foreskin, like the appendix, has functions. This is apparent to anyone who owns one. The standard of care for infection is antibiotics, not amputation. Girls are much more likely to develop UTIs than boys, yet we don't circumcise girls. Most UTIs and STIs are minor problems that can be treated. You don't remove valuable healthy sexual tissue.
endofscene 11 months ago 22
Maybe there's a humane way of doing "circumcision".
Perhaps a special Jewish condom that is shaped like a circumcised penis.
You get to put it on when you're feeling religious and take it off when you're around normal people.
jazzx251 11 months ago
I also think hitchens displayed the classic "straw man" logical fallacy. He takes the Rabbi's comment of a haircut hurting more and keeps saying that "genital mutilation isn't a joke" over and over again rather than elaborating more on what he said about the actual effects of circumcision.
MatthewLedZepfan 11 months ago
@MatthewLedZepfan
The Rabbi's comment was a terrible insult.
It reminded me of the Fox Hunting debate.
You had pro-hunt people coming up with arguments like "the fox enjoys being chased." "The fox appreciates the exercise!"
A complete insult to anyone's intelligence just like this "haircut" comment. A dreadful statement to make in comparison to the appalling uneccesary long-term suffering of children at the hands of religiously brainwashed fuckwits.
Fuck you religion. All the way to hell.
jazzx251 11 months ago
@jazzx251 yeah I can definitely see where your coming from.
MatthewLedZepfan 11 months ago
@MatthewLedZepfan The evidence is there, so the case is already won. What's left is convincing the audience that, already in principle, that kind of action (or any tribal ritual passed on through generations without some critical thinking) is immoral and primitive. The rabbi responds then poorly through personal experiences, as any theist does on any matter.
Murdulo 10 months ago
I agree with Hitchens but I honestly think he could have been a little more resepctful. Not just because he's talking to a Rabbi but because he's a human being.
MatthewLedZepfan 11 months ago
@MatthewLedZepfan
It's because Hitchens is a human being that he just couldn't control his anger.
This subject obviously presses his buttons - and that's a good thing.
What kind of Hitchens would we have if his inner rage had been "circumsized" by the pussy-footers?
jazzx251 11 months ago
@MatthewLedZepfan That's not Hitchens' style. He did operate within parameters of respect as defined by social standards. But he doesn't care what others think about him and he has no problem with interrupting people (which can be considered rude if done to excess). There is no doubting that he is an arrogant man. But the subject of male genital mutilation (as routinely forced upon babies) should inspire more anger and revulsion than it does, and it is good to see Hitchens expressing that here.
endofscene 11 months ago
@MatthewLedZepfan The problem is that circumcision has become a joke in modern western culture, especially in the USA and Jewish societies. The forced genital cutting of infants is minimalised and trivialised to the point of becoming a punchline. This is part of how circumcising cultures deal with their own mutilation and castration. You will find circumcision parodied on almost every American sitcom, comedy show, and drama. But genital mutilation is no joke and more people should speak out.
endofscene 11 months ago
@endofscene Yeah, you're absolutely right. I thought it about this the other day and realized that I wasn't looking at the bigger picture.
MatthewLedZepfan 11 months ago
@endofscene I thought about this the other day*
MatthewLedZepfan 11 months ago
trident, dude the biggest reason to do it is that it is UGLY. it looks so much better without. i dont care about sensation or other nonsense. its F'ing ugly
intenseca 1 year ago
@intenseca >Opinion.
reservoirdog1 11 months ago
@intenseca I disagree, and so do millions of other people. I think a circumcised penis is much more unattractive. It has had parts amputated. It has scar tissue. The glans is rough and dry and discoloured. There is discolouration of the shaft skin. There can be skin bridges, skin tags, chunks missing , twisted skin, excessive scar tissue, and worse.
The entire history of western art depicts only intact males, and many cultures celebrated the foreskin. It is normal in most places.
endofscene 11 months ago
@intenseca How about you leave the decision of Cosmetic Surgery to the person whose body it is. Cutting off parts of babies' genitals because you think they look ugly is weird and twisted and perverted and sick. Your mind has become warped and it would behoove you to transcend the shackles of your unhealthy conditioning. If you were born in Europe you might well be saying that cut dicks look ugly.
And if an intact penis is "ugly" then what does that make an intact vagina?
endofscene 11 months ago
Hoorah for whole penises!
BrendanIsCool 1 year ago 4
it is a fucking disgusting bronze age practise. religious cunts who inflict this terrible pain upon their children is a fucking outrage. i am generally a calm and civil person, but this BOILS MY BLOOD. seriously i am so heated in this moment just from listening to this pathetic old rabbi, what a disgustingly immoral man, that he feels he is honoring GOD and his LAW, its fucking AWFUL!! I am cut myself, and i can tell you it is no joke. I almost died when i was 3 years old. IT IS NO JOKE PEOPLE!!
jaylias 1 year ago 4
@jaylias bloody hell mate. I'm sad to learn of this especially done to you at age 3. At that age you were able to have the sensation of being taken away & having something done to you that is traumatic & utterly vile. If I were you I would track down the bastard that did this to you ("doctor or surgeon") & slam his brains out or at least sue him. Be a role model & sue him! Please! Make millions out of the bastard! They should have known better. I'd also disown my parents, instantly, for life.
trident3b 1 year ago
IF MY DAD CUT OF A PART OF MY BODY AND SAID.
ALLAH AKBA OR LONG LIVE GOD.
ID FUCKING WANNA KILL HIM FOR IT!
DONT THE KIDS HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
chrstilen5 1 year ago 4
I think I've found myself a new personal hero. WELL PLAYED, sir!
1148BucksX2 1 year ago
Some boys have to get their foreskins taken off for medical reason because it can effect them, but doctors are just taken it off for no apparent reason then yes, they are fucking wrong and the parents are too and that needs to be stopped.
sexicapicorn 1 year ago
@sexicapicorn I have to say that I don't believe there is ever a medical reason for this act. There are as many "problems" with the foreskin as there are with the little finger at birth, namely none. The foreskin should be left alone. Period. It can take till the age of 10 or more until it comes back and only comes back during errection etc. There are just excuses all the time for this barbaric act. It is totally unnecessary. They r 2 Leave it as one leaves eyelids & the clitoris etc. Leave it.
trident3b 1 year ago
@trident3b When a baby gets an infection, has problems peeing, and is in pain because of their foreskin and can only be fixed by circumcision then yes theres a medical reason and btw they do cut off the clitoris ever heard of FGM its mostly popular in some African tribes and Islamic cultures even tho they only do for barbaric reasons they say keep the woman from being promiscuous which is bullshit.Anyway if I have a son and the doc says my son penis is healthy than no I wont get it circumcised.
sexicapicorn 1 year ago
@sexicapicorn the scenario you describe is in 99.99% of births not an issue equally as much as new borns have no problems with closing their eyelids or moving their arms. It is a US (& religious)obsession with cutting genitals as well as it being a billion $ business in the US that also causes these hideous acts. It shouldn't even be assumed to be a problem where statistically there is just never a problem, no more a problem than eyelids. Sure I know about FGM, & the same applies, both criminal.
trident3b 1 year ago
@trident3b I agree with you if there is not a problem leave it alone and if I have a son I'm not unless there's a medical reason. And I stated before if the doctor are just cutting it off for no apparent reason(well money) then it's wrong and I would love if it stopped internationally.
sexicapicorn 1 year ago
Did you know rabbis suck the blood from the wound? I was stunned when i saw this and thought it can't be true but it is, there was even a report that a baby got herpes and died because of it and now they should use a sterile length of surgical tubing.
I don't know anything about Judaism or about this but it still surprised me when i read that.
Sozlled 1 year ago
It was done to me at the hospital. I'm missing part of my dick and I fucking hate you and all you who support this. To hell with you crazed baby mutilators. You should be rotting in prison like other baby rapers.
stopglobalswarming 1 year ago 45
@stopglobalswarming
Check out foregen - They're raising 200,000 dollars through viewer donations to regenerate everything lost to circumcision through regenerative medicine in their clinical trial of foreskin regeneration. You can find out more at foregen.org
stkcarm5 1 year ago
When I was born, my parents were convinced by quack doctors that "everybody" gets circumcised, and were duped into letting a child predator rape and mutilate my body. I think that bastard should die by state execution, and I have the same hatred for the parents who still deliberately and knowingly advocate this practice, and the sick fucks like you who think it is your "right" to mutilate boys for your sick fetish or religion.
stopglobalswarming 1 year ago
@stopglobalswarming So you were snipped. And what side effects do you attribute to having been snipped? How do you know whatever these side effects were, that they are caused by you having been snipped?
truevoiceofsanity 1 year ago
@truevoiceofsanity You are intentionally trying to be provocative by minimising and trivialising the situation and someone else's discontent. You are repeatedly using the euphamism 'snipped' for this reason. We all know that socalled circumcision (another euphamism) involves more than a "quick snip". Most hospital circumcisions involve ripping and tearing and clamping and crushing and then cutting. Even if it was able to be performed in "one fell swoop" that doesn't make it any better.
endofscene 1 year ago
@stopglobalswarming Part 2: Were you "snipped" by a moyel? I think, if your procedure was medical, its silly to claim you were "raped". Anyway, I look forward to hearing about the side effects you've suffered by having been mutiliated.
truevoiceofsanity 1 year ago
@truevoiceofsanity you are missing the point. very few, if any person who was cut as a child, remembers it or necessarily suffer ill effects from it. if a baby girl is circumcised at 8 days, will she remember? and if she doesn't, does that make the practice less barbaric to you (or do you approve of it)?
your supposition that those of us who are objecting aren't cut is a bizarre one. we don't necessarily suffer ill effects.
bethnor 1 year ago
@truevoiceofsanity but we have come to realize that there is something very sinister about the whole thing that should be opposed. you've dodged it repeatedly: do you believe there is a benign entity in the sky that wants the foreskins of little boys? (indeed, if the president were to demand that tomorrow, we would move to impeach almost immediately, or do you deny that?). and it seems to me, if you are going to posit that it is not harmful, you should have the answers to my other ?s.
bethnor 1 year ago
@bethnor Do I believe in God? No. Do I think its sinister? Well, no, not really. Your questions might convince me as a parent to think twice first. At the end of the day, I know multiple sides of this issue exist and its not clear cut enough to justify legislating it.
truevoiceofsanity 1 year ago
@truevoiceofsanity what's the other side of the issue? is there a good reason other than satisfying an invisible being in the sky? why do you wish to "respect" that? do you "respect" muslims who use the koran to justify hitting their wives? do you "respect" the jewish prayer to wake up thanking god for not making you female or a goy? do you "respect" the christian use of the bible to persecute homosexuals?
bethnor 1 year ago
@truevoiceofsanity so you think there's nothing sinister about thinking that babies won't be normal until you cut them, even if you are not of that religious faith.
that just proves hitch's point.
bethnor 1 year ago
@truevoiceofsanity so, let's for argument sake say there is a small town somewhere where the mayor says he has a deal with his townsfolk. part of this deal involves giving him half the foreskins of all the town's newborn boys. there's nothing sinister about that?
the corollary of this question is, if you believe there is, why do you say there's nothing sinister about doing the same for an omniscient invisible sky being?
bethnor 1 year ago
@bethnor People believe strange things, life is short. don't sweat the small stuff. I don't know the logic behind jewisj theology. Again, the mythology of guns scares me more.
truevoiceofsanity 1 year ago