Zelenka - "Missa Votiva" in E Minor ZWV18 - Mov. 1-4/20

[unwrought]

Thanks a lot for such praise. One day I would love to adapt some Zelenka for guitar, just for my pleasure, but the scores are harly to be get. So I should put something else on my channel meanwhile...hope to do soon.

[TheNikito00]

Majestuoso!

[javiergme]

Maravilloso!

[Xenar17]

Harmonico I'm so glad I found your channel

So many amazing songs to listen to @.@

Thanks for uploading them

Also really love all the different art you put as the background :D

Now I just need to buy all the cd's and such :D

[macdonald59]

like Bach :-)

[vonMohl]

Zelenka is clearly to be ranked among the greatest in a row with Bach

[enriquejesus09]

Bellisimo los cantos religiosos llenan el espiritu, saludos.

[SilversTears]

Zelenka has not been outed as much as Bach in the past century, and that is one strong reason why he is not popular. Bach would not be well known today if his works had not been produced so many times by Stravinsky and others during the 20th century. Zelenka would be just as well known if we had done the same for his work. The only composer that could rival Zelenka's skill of counterpoint was Bach, and even Bach was known to regard Zelenka very highly.

[inchesa1]

so diferen and so beautiful i likes zelenka then bach

[unwrought]

There is one thing I simply can not understand: why do you argue about Bach's masterpiece - whatever your opinion is - here, listening to Zelenka's masterpiece. Jan Dismas Zelenka was one of the biggest baroque composers. Isn't this music divine enough to talk about it? The whole world has discovered Bach as a genius of music. Now it is right time to discover another one - and not worse in the least.

[TheGoodWinston]

@unwrought

It is worse. Methinks Zelenka should be placed in a secondary rank behind the likes of Bach. Very good, but not of a similar level of genius.

[unwrought]

@TheGoodWinston Excuse me, but you probably do not know much about baroque music - that's the only reason you could have pronounced such judgement. Zelenka is the genius of the same level as Bach - however Bach himself consideren Zelenka to be a great composer and sent his son Wilhelm Friedemann to Dresden to copy some of Zelenkas masterpieces. Zelenka employed lots of incredible and astonishing musical principles - many of them being commonly used centuries later.TheOtherThing isWhatU like.

[TheGoodWinston]

@unwrought

Not the same level, sorry. Perhaps his rebellious, curious penchant for 'exotic' material may have led to some interesting harmonic discoveries, which I freely admit Bach and others acknowledged, but these are small bits and pieces contained within works which, taken as a whole, do not meet the standards of 'genius', at least not Bach's level.

This isn't to say he is grossly unappreciated, and I think he deserves wider recognition. Still, Bach is superior.

[unwrought]

@TheGoodWinston Can not agree, sorry. Zlnka's contribution to the music is wider and more complex than some mere "interesting harmonic discoveries". He did not have enough opportunities to compose more instrumental works, being fully occupied as a church composer - this can not make him a worse composer, just the less appreciated. Z-ka is still being undiscovered in his complexity- that is not the case of Bach. I do not reason against Bach as a genius beyond dispute.However Z.is the same.

[TheGoodWinston]

@unwrought

That is no excuse, since Bach of people spent most of his professional life in service of the Lutheran Church, yet still found enough time to fulfill his creative ambition. How are Zelenka's pieces noteworthy, beyond the virtuosic flurry of contrapuntal notes and often daring harmonic activity?

The work must be taken as a whole. A whole. In this respect, Zelenka is not the same as Bach, rather he is inferior. I agree he must find his way into classical repertoire.

[unwrought]

@TheGoodWinston It should not be an excuse. I am not sure whether you know enough about the life of Z-ka, otherwise you could not have make such rough parrallel. The contract of Bach was quite different to that of Z-ka, there is a great book by Janice Stokigt or even better /unfortunatelly only in czech still/ by Jaroslav Smolka. Once you read it you will think different about Z-ka. Zelenka was never appointed for "Kapellmeister", so that he was to play a double bass in the orchestra - this was

[unwrought]

@unwrought ..the work he was paid for and at the same time /on his own expenses in his own free time/ take place for J.Heinichen - the Kappellmeister, who was seriously ill for a long period. Z-ka not only had to write music for all occasions /he wrote the great Rekquiem and Officium Defunctorum within 11 days!/, moreover he had to play the bass under different conductors and conduct different music. The position of Bach was completely different. There is not enough place to explain it here, so

[unwrought]

@unwrought ...so let's go to the point: I'm quite sure I can not convince you as you state that Z-ka's music is not good enough as the whole !! If you do not hear it in the music itself, no words can persuade you, that is clear. The overall quality and spiritual profundity of Z-ka's music is in fact its most remarkable characteristic. If you listened to two different musical samples not knowing which one is which - one by Bach, the other by Z-ka, than you could really judge.Not just by name and

[unwrought]

@unwrought and reputation, but by the inner quality and liveness of the music. I am quite sure you would be surprised. Bach and Zelenka stand hand in hand as two utmost highlights of /not only/ baroque music.

[TheGoodWinston]

@unwrought

The most important thing is that Zelenka was an excellent composer, among the greatest of the Baroque era, and his music should be appreciated for all time. It is tragic how little recognition he is given, thus I support wholeheartedly his promotion in musical circles and the wider world in general.

By the way your channel is very good. I'm a guitarist myself, it seems I have much to learn lol. :)

[TheGoodWinston]

@unwrought

That sound's like a good experiment, but I assure you I judge the music only.

My parallel was apt, methinks. Bach only had the post of Kappelmeister at Cöthen from 1717-1723.

I don't think Zelenka holds a candle to Bach in fugue-writing, despite his grasp of counterpoint.

[unwrought]

@TheGoodWinston and by the way - what do you mean when you say "exotic" material. He did not use any exotic material except of a mastercraft of counterpoint, he used a lot of chromatic sequences - again far more /listen to his great fugues in Missa Sanctissimae Trinitatis a-minor or Missa Purificationis...for example)than any other baroque composer /with the exception of Bach/, he employed bass-section of the orchestra in a manner never before to be heard /sinfonia from I Penitenti al...forExple

[TheGoodWinston]

@unwrought

Using a chromatic sequence alone doesn't automatically mean one has mastery over contrapuntal affairs. Even I, a foolish young ne'er-do-well, could write some rudimentary counterpoint over a chromatic subject with relative adherence to harmonic principle, but what of it? To use it so often is somewhat mischievous, I reckon.

'Exotic' here means unorthodox, innovative segments of music.

I honestly don't see why he should be elevated to Bach's level, but I will listen to more of Z-man

[mzrequiem]

mm for what i have heard Bach was the composer and Zelenka was the virtuoso(player). i love Bach but zelenka is grat also.

[heavenlymilano]

I am a Bach-o-maniac. I am in love with him. I will always prefer him above anyone else. However, I have to say that I find Zelenka very listenable. He is good.

[paradoxicus]

"Tienen boca y no hablan,tienen ojos y no ven."

[PillarsOfValhalla]

muy bien

[tempodimarcia]

Opinion is opinion is opinion. Whether you like Zelenka, Bach or Lady Gaga, there's nothing that makes your opinion any more valid than anyone else's when it comes to something as subjective as artistic value in music.

Anyway, this is a cool piece. Thanks for the upload.

[pianomags]

@tempodimarcia but i DO lke this comment!

[TheGoodWinston]

@tempodimarcia

"Opinion is opinion is opinion" No, it isn't. Correspondence to factual reality rears its head eventually.

"...Lady Gaga" Concentration camp.

Art is only subjective up to a point. Beauty lies in the object.

They would have all great art erased, all glorious edifices reduced to rubble, all excellence depleted, as the inevitable result of this sickening substitution for thought.

This is why Hannibal Lecter is my Godfather. He's got a lot of bad press.

[inchesa33]

i want this music if you can tell me where i can get this mp3 or send mee please please please

[gracek703]

Beautiful.

[attabalippa]

This interpretation of the Collegium 1704/Luks is absolutely fantastic.

I suggest you listen to the wonderful Missa "Sanctissimae Trinity" ZWV 17, this work is also equally beautiful.

[HARMONICO101]

I love that piece as well. Working on getting a recording of that.

[Kraviotho]

esta obra en particular me llamó mucho la atención... va directo a "favoritos"

Se agradece el aporte :D

5/5

[inchesa1]

perfect  this music is perfect zelenka was gratest compeser

[inchesa1]

very beutiful music nice

[ultranom]

Anybody who propels insults at another via messages and who claims to know more than somebody who doesn't even know is in my book a complete moron (plus a coward). You have not given any arguments yet that show us your supposed knowledge the only thing you do is to insult others and that is the typical trait of the mentally inferior.

[HARMONICO101]

If you are referring to my comment you obviously don't understand what I am up to.

Note the hipocrisy of your own statement.

[ultranom]

No I was not referring to your comment but to another person (whose comments had been deleted apparentely/the one who talked about simple minds requiring simple music...). I did notice the contradiction in my comment. Sorry about that.

[HARMONICO101]

No problem. My comment came to you a bit nastier then I intended, forgive me. I thought even if you are not against me, I thought that I mention that your own statement, though totally agreeable, is a bit hypocritical.

Anyway, sorry about the bother.

[ultranom]

I find your comment filled with ad hominems which obscure the good points. Member of the classical music elite?? What is that supposed to be? Your arrogance is despicable in a world where no one holds the truth.

[ultranom]

Amazing, nothing to envy Bach.

[HARMONICO101]

Why is it that when one expresses displeasure at hearing complex music, the immediate defense is "Oh, well, this music is to intelligent for you"? Bullshit. I'm glad you think your so damn smart, but there is such a thing in music as beauty. Music that is truly beautiful transcends any kind of complexity, and reveals a truly great composer. A composer whose music speaks for all people doesn't need initiation to appreciate. That's what seperates the "greats" from the "good".

[homousios]

yes. Youn are right. Like  Bach

[HARMONICO101]

"Simple minds require simple music."

Don't give me that elitist crap. There is plenty of complex music I adore. A truly great composer can make complex music truly beautiful. I even love Bartok's string quartets despite their dissonance in the classic sense. Zelenka's often sound nothing more than a bunch of notes. There is little musicality and the pieces often go nowhere emotionally or musically.

[HARMONICO101]

Got some Durante uploaded.

Nevertheless, Zelenka's compositions often go into weird tangents especially his instrumental orchestral works which I personally find absolutely horrendous from an emotional standpoint despite their supposed "complexity".

[Nuk1eus]

First - the music by Zelenka is everything but "complex". What I appreciate especially in Zelenka is simplicity in structure and originality in harmony.

And the second - every composer has better and less good works. However, if someone can call something so beautiful as for example Sonata B-flat Maj. (ex ZWV 181) "absolutely horrendous from an emotional standpoint" or lacking of musicality, being nothing more than a bunch of notes, then he is not worth of serious discussion!

[HARMONICO101]

"First - the music by Zelenka is everything but "complex"

Have you listened to his fugues in his mass movements and trio sonatas?

"And the second - every composer has better and less good works."

Well of course. But it certainly hurts the composer if he has a small number of surviving works to begin with.

[HARMONICO101]

As for your last point, I don't recall mentioning that piece at all. And if I did, I don't see how it could not be worth serious discussion considering it's a totally contrary opinion to yours. That makes it all the more worthy of serious discussion. Sorry it doesn't conform to your taste.

The true test of the emotional quality of a piece is showing it to a non-musician, casual classical music listener. I have done so with Zelenka's trio sonatas, and no one I showed it to thought much of it.

[Nuk1eus]

Well, it's becouse you're not right, whether you like it or not. :-) No, you didn't mention it, but you wrote about it in general. You don't need to like some piece of music (or some painting, building, etc.), but it doesn't imply it is bad. For instance - when I had listened to Bach's B-minor Mass for the first time many years ago, I was disappointed at all. I had been awaiting one of the baroque masterpieces, and it was only average. But now I have to say it is really good music, well written.

[Nuk1eus]

Becouse good composer is not able to write bad music. But still, is able to write boring, average music. And that's exactly what's the Bach's B-minor Mass for me up to the present day, along with many other his works, probably most of them.

People tend to use different scales when judging such things. They are too lenient to "popular, well-known giants", but too strict to the others.

[HARMONICO101]

"Becouse good composer is not able to write bad music."

That's also not true. Almost every artist has produced mediocre work. I am also positive that many of these works don't survive today for obvious reasons.

[bersa888]

I'd like to know what you consider to masterpieces of Baroque music... I agree that Bach's B min. mass is not easy listening by any means, but dismissing it as "good music, well written", it just seems to be coming from - at least - a misinformed or strongly biased point of view... just curious ;-)

[bubblykings]

I'm sorry, but I find Bach's Mass in B minor WAY too good and mediocre is nowhere near close to how godlike that work is. I think it's one of the best masterpieces of the Baroque. Well, my opinion. :)

[bersa888]

@Nuk1eus : Hi. I just read your comment and, although I agree on things such as personal taste, I cannot but notice that calling Bach' B minor Mass "well written" can only come from not knowing the subject well enough. Apart from the "effect" that the music can have on you, Bach's compositional technique(s) exhibited in the Mass are a wonder to behold, unmatched by any composer. Sorry, but "well written" is just a laughable, uniformed view, which doesn't do you or Bach any justice :-)

[Nuk1eus]

@bersa888 : " just a laughable, uniformed view" - OK, so inform me. Especially what do you consider so outstanding on that piece? What did I miss? On what should I focus next time during listening - except "Crucifixus", "Et in spiritum Sanctum", "Sanctus" and "Agnus Dei" what are the best pieces of the whole composition (my personal opinion)? Why do I enjoy listening John or Mathew Passion or Zelenka's Missam Votivam or Missam Sanctissimae Trinitatis much more than Bach's B-minor mass?

[bersa888]

@Nuk1eus : I also enjoy listening more to the St. Matthew Passion than the B minor Mass... :-) That's not what I wrote or implied, on the contrary. As far as illustrating the greatness of Bach's Mass in b min., I don't know if you are a musician or what, and wouldn't want to sound too technical. But, if you are knowledgeable about music history and - especially - theory, then I'd be more than happy to write you a private message illustrating some actual commentated musical examples. Bye :-)

[iamalittlespy]

@Nuk1eus

Bach's B minor mass is an average work ? Is this coming form a serious music connoisseur ? You are right some people are too lennient to established composers, even though Bach's wasn't always established. However some people also like to get attention by denigrating valid masterpieces. You probably think Mozart's Requeim and late Beethoven's string quartets are boring as well.

[alipitogen]

@iamalittlespy I totally agree. I'd say anyone who finds Bach's B Minor 'boring' or 'average' is likely to go into the Sistine Chapel, lie on their back and declare what they see to be  a reasonable effort but not worth writing home about !

[HARMONICO101]

"Well, it's becouse you're not right, whether you like it or not. :-)"

And so how are you right exactly? Because you say so? Come on!

"No, you didn't mention it, but you wrote about it in general."

Only in the broadest context. What, do I have to make a giant list and review each single piece stating my like or dislike of it? You need to realize that there are always exceptions to any generalization.

[HARMONICO101]

"You don't need to like some piece of music (or some painting, building, etc.), but it doesn't imply it is bad."

You also don't need to like something to make it good. If that were true, Lady Gaga would be among the greatest artists of the modern era.

[bubblykings]

LOL Good job incorporating Lady GaGa into "baroque music" talk!! :D

[HARMONICO101]

My opinion is not simply my own. I know many others who do not hold him in any particular place of honor. Why do you think his music hasn't caught on more among Baroque and classical players? Because he is not that great generally speaking. It's the same story as anything with cult following.

[Nuk1eus]

@HARMONICO101:I know many others who do not hold B-minor mass in any particular place of honour. And even many others who rather keep they opinion about Bach to themselves not to be called ignorants. On the other hand, there were authorities, who did hold him in a particular place of honour-e.g. romantic composer B.Smetana called J.D.Zelenka "the best baroque composer".We (or at least-me:-) are only "hobby-musicologists" and hobby musicians. But the latter was a great composer and musician

[TheGoodWinston]

@HARMONICO101

True, despite his extensive contrapuntal vocabulary, he doesn't quite compare to Bach in terms of creative genius.

I would, however, grant that Zelenka has pushed the boundaries somewhat with his irreverent avant garde attitude. Some peculiar harmonic language may have found its way into Bach from him.

But that's as far as it goes. I applaud those who promote Zelenka's reputation and urgency in classical repertoire, but he was inferior to Bach. Sorry Czechs.

[gustavs9]

man you upload wonderful music.

[nadavnaz2]

in a beautiful way*

[nadavnaz2]

The opening kyrie is so special... So weird in a beutiful.

[johannsebastian1]

it's no big deal the interpretation, the music could be very fine I think

[kirschhofbarokni]

I thing that Collegium 1704 is the best contemporary baroque orchestra in Czech republic. I recomend it for all of you, they are also doing tours all arond Europe.

[johannsebastian1]

If it is the best group in Czech republic it has to be evidently very miserable situation in the early music there.

[kirschhofbarokni]

Well, yes it is, but this orchesta is a big exception. They've won prices in germany on Bach's fest and so on. They are definitely not bad, I've heard them live, and it was a huge experience.

[johannsebastian1]

I wrote it roughly. The orchestra is surely very good but the musical conception works very poorly. I think they need (as well as Zelenka) more talented leading because the potential is there certainly.

[nadavnaz2]

This group in particular is wonderful! Really.

[baroquista]

Wonderfull music, very boring interpretation. It should be a prayer! Not a military march (Christe).

[HARMONICO101]

This is grand rousing music. It shouldn't be played contemplatively. There are other movements in the work that fit that category.

[vaniificat]

0:00 - 4:03 Kyrie Eleison

4:03 - 9:26 Christe Eleison

9:26 - 10:10 Kyrie Eleison I

10:10 - 11:00 Kyrie Eleison II

[vaniificat]

This series you've posted on youtube is wonderful. Who's the artist(s) and/or publisher?

[AZAZADECH]

Yeah!!! Simply genius, simply made in the Czech Republic. Thanks for sharing it.

[Nuk1eus]

LOL! :-D

[p8ja]

Made by Czech composer, but probably in Germany :-)

[rafaelvicentecarlos]

Con música como esta la Iglesia Católica podría pescar para sí a uno que otro agnóstico culto.

[xAndulka]

Wonderful, very nice piece.

[pathsinger]

Superb!!!