Targum Neofiti

[FluctuatingThought]

Even John Calvin would have a problem with this. He notes that if one takes 'elohiym in the first verse as the Trinity, then what about the second verse? It would then be understood as the spirit of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Unintentionally, this would be useful for Sabellius. Besides, Josephus, Targum Onkelos and Pseudo-Jonathan all agree with the idea of "wind of God," as opposed to "spirit of God," a Christian concept.

[ninjaaron]

abuse of the targumim makes baby Jesus cry. Mark Should know that the tradition to which he's referring is in midrash rabbah.

(and while he's at it, he should also know that they are applying ראשית to the nation of Israel)

[adimaginem]

colosians 1:16 is a rewording of gen 1:1. Paul switches out "Reshith" (Gen 1:1) for "by him" and calls Jesus the beginning. Reshith (Heb) means first. Paul is saying Jesus was first over creation, first born son of God, died as God's firstborn, was raised like the firstfruits festival that lead to Pentecost (then and the ultimate), and he is the head [same root as reshith] of new creation, the people of God who will be resurrected from the dead. all things were created through him and for him.

[imogo84]

mark will be held accountable for his comments, but so will you, don't forget that

[freeloadernumber8]

Jesus told his disciples that he would send them the Holy Spirit....John 14:26 "But the Helper,the Holy Spirit,whom the Father will send in my name,He will teach you all things..." He will.....So why do you say the Spirit is feminine??

[DontFriendInviteMe]

I've always appreciated the way that Mark speaks. There have been times where he has brought an idea to life for many people, but his teachings on the trinity and eternal torment are sooooo unbiblical. The bible, nor the Messiah ever taught that YHWH was 3. It HAS to be assumed to make the Roman Catholic doctrine make sense, not Genesis. :o\ I wish more of these big name teachers would study REAL Ancient Hebrew, instead of apply modern grammar to it.

[sunpie]

What I love about the internet is that when somebody like Mark here gives a sermon with false info the comment section can hold him to account. good work Targum police!!

[Daytimeofnight]

This video is just plain wrong all over the place. Embarrassingly wrong. For a sound dismantling of the argument in this video, see the Dec. 17, 2010 post on robertcargill(dot)com

[Mojosbigstick]

In the Hebrew, 'God' is indeed plural. But the 'Spirit' is feminine.  He left that bit out.

[intruthwithlove777]

Baptise in Yashayah(u)'s name. The name has been so hidden because those who call on His name will be saved. אהיה אשר אהיה is the Father's name. The harm in the trinity isn't so much calling Christ divine or from God as John records but it's that u don't call His name, u say Father son holy spirit, u don't call His name. He who heeds correction is in the way of life.

[intruthwithlove777]

Remember Christ also said the Father is greater and that the Son does the Father's will and not His own. So light was called out from the darkness of Mary's womb and it is good. His divinity- divine child of the holy spirit on whom the spirit rests, Christ is a living voluntary surrogate of the Father's will, aka word made flesh

[intruthwithlove777]

And I'm not trinitarian; I call myself a Divinitarian. Know Christ was born without sperm or egg, obviously a miracle and divine. "before Abraham was, I AM"

[intruthwithlove777]

I wonder if he is intentionally misleading people or if he is just quoting what that guy told him about the Targum neofiti. Christ is divine, no doubt. John records many times that He came forth from God. Christ said the Father's name was in Him and He does the Father's will. Now read about the angel in Exodus 23, see how it fits how Christ described himself. "obey His voice and do all that I speak". U can find alot of revelation from the Torah, David knew that.

[bob25345]

Targuman is also correct in identifying the key word as "by wisdom" not "firstborn." "Wisdom" is a reference to Proverbs 8 and the role that the female creation known as Wisdom played in God's creation of the rest of the cosmos.

BTW, the translation of verse two is not that of Targum Neofiti, nor is it based on that Targum. It might be a rendering of Targum Onkelos, but only a loose one.

[bob25345]

The dates given for Targum Neofiti is pretty standard, as Targuman indicates, roughly 200 AD. Early excitement surrounding its discovery in the 1950s led to some exaggeration and unwarranted claims that it was earlier. Most of those did not push the targum earlier than first century AD.

[ChristianDefence]

I think regardless of the translation being "firstborn" or "with wisdom", Mark's general point still stands true - that there is a trinitarian nature spoken within that targum.

Jesus has been ascribed to as wisdom/Logos/Word - and so even if you read Prov. 3:19, 8:22-23, and others - you see the jigsaw fitting into place when you see John 1:1-3, and I think the clearest statement comes from 1 Cor 1:24,30.

And where are you guys pulling the dates of the targum from?

[kinjja]

@ChristianDefence The dates come from analysis of the language of the Targum in light of other Aramaic texts which we can date for certain. Plus analysis of non-semitic words in the text. IF Neofiti is from 200 BCE (a full 140 years BEFORE the Romans show up) one is going to have a hell of time accounting for the Latin words (spelled out in the Aramaic script) which are present in Neofiti.

[FHCChurch]

darn you, Targuman!  You are correct!!

[targuman]

And second, that the translation he offers of TgNeof Gen. 1.1 is wrong. It should be "From the beginning, with wisdom, the Lord created..." The term "with wisdom" (bchokmah) is certain and nothing like "firstborn." It is a reference to Prov. 3.19 "The LORD by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens."

[targuman]

A key problem with his presentation is that Targum Neofiti is, at earliest second century AD, that is two centuries AFTER Jesus' birth, not before it.

[staedtler9562]

I appreciate the emphasis on scripture and the clear communication of God's truth. Please keep posting things for us to see. Praise the Lord!