@AlSwearengen15 This video is very helpful but I do want to second what a few people have said, though I think you addressed it, that the point in which you are only connected to the one sling lacks redundancy. I think people do this a lot, though, especially with daisy chains. It's probably fine 99% of the time. However, having two slings, or some other source of redundancy, is basically bombproof (as long as the bolts are sound, that is).
@AlSwearengen15 I think that this is a valid point and I reshot the lowering off of chains to cover this point. It is best to have at least two parachutes. I reposted your comment because it is a valid point that people should take note of.
@vkelsov actually it doesn't change to much. When guiding I carry a couple extra that being 4. I usually only carry 2 when climbing with friends. Ok maybe 3, but one to clip in and a big ass pear biner for a munter hitch. I can always use a couple biners opposing if I forget a locker. Once in awhile I just go crazy and use a nonlocker where the rules say I should. I am such a rebel!
Hey Mike, I'm a real fan of your series, but for this video I might have a suggestion. You fix the rope with a munter to prevent it from falling down to the anker. That 's ok, but I always make an overhand knot, take a carabiner and fix it direct to my belay sling on my harness. The reason for this is that if I have leaded that route and the anker (bolt) brakes out of the wall I'll only fall down to my next quickdraw/friend whatever. For sure it is necessary that my belayer is still belaying :)
I guess that would depend on where you are at. Your first rope should be 60 meters and 10.5 By the time you wear that out your going to have a pretty good idea what you want next. As to what brand I don't have a favorite. I look for a sheath that is not to tight and not to loose. Goldylocks brand! I have a lot given to me over the last 15 years so which one is best I am not sure, sorry.
@paintbaler94 It might be worth also saying, because I dont know what previous knowledge to bring to this or not and some people actually have made this mistake, is that you want dynamic rope not a static rope unless you dont really value the ability to walk. A dry rope too is not really a must but I dont think I would buy anything but
You could try asking your belayer to stop lowering then grab the draw and continue lowering after you have clipped it to your harness. repeat as required. So simple it just might work your thinking.
Not sure which harness is not full strenght. Avoiding KN all the harnesses that I have in this house test out at a min 6000 lb load. If it is a belay loop I assume it is plenty strong. I have had a fair bit of noise about the girthing the belay loop is going to wear down the material. I have to dismiss this as nonsense but people are serious enough to send death threats to my pets. I don't think you have to worry much unless your wearing a Todd Skinner hand me down harness. Thanks for your .02
True about doing it right the first time is best. You'd only have to pull up a few more inches than we have here to tie a knot into your harness though. I look forward to the re-shoot.
Other quick point is know YOUR harness. Some belay loops are full strength and some aren't. on a full strength the only downside of girthing into it is its a single failure point, but so is your runner so its just your choice. That's my $.02
Thanks for the video Mike. Its really nice for people to see this BEFORE they leave the ground...
So the first option is a way to fix the redundancy of your tie in to the anchor clove hitch your rope to the anchor like he did and then take a clove or 8 on a bight between the anchor and belay and clip that to your harness. One runner to the right, tied in with rope to the left. Voila!
That would certainly work, just that you would have to pull up a mess of rope. Might as well just do it right from the start. I will show you in the re-shoot
Hi Mike, I've been watching your vids for the last couple of weeks and I really enjoy them.
I want to say a concern I have with your lowering off of chain like this. I would never get my self lowered off anything that I don't know what it's been through. This chain could be hit by hundres of rocks making it's round shape have small edges that can cut the rope while moving down. Instead I would make a rappel and lower my self without moving the rope. Can someone comment on what would be better?
Hilti expansion bolts are for construction purposes not life support systems in climbing. My skateboard helmet is the best climbing helmet I have ever owned. Those who made quick links I am sure had no idea we would be using them this way. I can go on but I have to disagree that this is a unsafe practice. Worth debating and I will let folks decide for themselves.
Your tethering system is not redundant. The weak point here is the webbing and biner you're attaching to the anchors with, not the anchors. You should use that extra webbing to make a second tether instead of clipping the chains together.
When thinking about it. In the real world I most likely clip in the way that I do but I would also take a couple draws and daisy them to the second chain as a back up. I am guessing the fact that I am only a foot off the ground and that I only had three draws total on me prevented this. HHHMM things to think about in future videos are the little details. I am the biggest chicken out there and am much more redundant then I need to be most times.
You guys have enough valid points that a re-shoot and edit are justified. Not sure that anybody would get hurt doing it this way but if there is a safer way then that is what we should be teaching, Thanks I should get this out fairly soon.
Not redundant but sufficient. Double tethering all your clips into anchors can be time consuming/clustering and can possibly work against you in cases where you need to get moving.
However, you should have checked the sewn sling (runner) before you left the ground with it.... i.e. carefully inspect the condition of every inch of both sides of the sling's webbing, and the condition of the load-bearing stitching (meaning that no cuts, burns, or any significant traces of wear are present) Likewise the carabiner should have been inspected for wear, gate closure, any bending/warping, and general integrity.
And if not that same day, a chain of custody similar to what crime dramas depict when handling evidence should ensure the integrity of each piece of PPE. Why would anyone go through all the trouble to have a system, check the harness, etc. and then lean back on a sewn sling that some cat had been gnawing on the night previous, or that had had a chemical spilled on it.
While I would never hang on a single friction hitch, I would single tether to a bomber anchor.
PS I'm not sure he suggested the tether-to-the-anchor (sling+'biner) was redundant, but the 'anchor' was in truth redundant because there were 2 bomber anchor points. The point being, if a piece blew (in this case if a bolt pulled out), the other piece (bolt) is a redundant backup for the blown piece.
But better safe than sorry, right? The end.
(this was a reply to someone shaming Joe Mckai for having a non-redundant anchor according to he)
I have to agree on te redundant part. Hoping to get a chance to reshoot this in the next day or so. Like I mentioneda second runner to the harness would solve and or be a better solution. if I was Actually sport climbing I would have had a lot more runners at hand. One should not hang off of one piece of webbing if it can be helped.
I'm sorry mike, you're vids are some of the best I've seen, and I wouldn't pick if it wasn't a life support situation. A lot of people girth the BL, but it simply is not designed for that purpose, like the tie in point is. Sorry.
If you are wearing a Todd Skinner hand me down harness perhaps. The sling and biner are a fraction of the strength of the belay loop. So I guess we have to agree to disagree.
Well Mike, I would have to say the daisy to harness attachment method method you use is what most people use, but it is not what the harness designers & manufacturers intended or recommend. Heck, I have climbed with (he has caught hundreds of my falls!) an experienced climber that won't even belay off the belay loop! Really, no offense intended, we all have our own ways of doing things. Rock On, Mike!
I think it is healthy to debate this. Nobody should be taking anything off the internet as gospel (especially the gospel). Hopefully they will take this advice from you and ask around then decide for themselves. You tube is not may not be the best climbing school out there. (having said that I did more less teach myself to kite ski last winter off of YT. Really I could be making this shit up or paraphrasing Freedom of the Hills how would anybody really know.
Good stuff as always Mike. Hey, would it be better to yell "Take" instead of "Get ready to lower", simply to avoid confunsion? What if the belayer misses the "Get ready" part and just starts to lower? No impending tragedy, but still.
Thanks! Did you install those bolts and chains just to make this video?
lizhenrocks 2 months ago
Comment removed
AlSwearengen15 11 months ago
@AlSwearengen15 This video is very helpful but I do want to second what a few people have said, though I think you addressed it, that the point in which you are only connected to the one sling lacks redundancy. I think people do this a lot, though, especially with daisy chains. It's probably fine 99% of the time. However, having two slings, or some other source of redundancy, is basically bombproof (as long as the bolts are sound, that is).
mikebarter387 11 months ago
@AlSwearengen15 I think that this is a valid point and I reshot the lowering off of chains to cover this point. It is best to have at least two parachutes. I reposted your comment because it is a valid point that people should take note of.
mikebarter387 11 months ago
Mike... How many locking biners to you usually carry on your rack? I understand it would probably change depending on what kind of climb you expect.
vkelsov 1 year ago
@vkelsov actually it doesn't change to much. When guiding I carry a couple extra that being 4. I usually only carry 2 when climbing with friends. Ok maybe 3, but one to clip in and a big ass pear biner for a munter hitch. I can always use a couple biners opposing if I forget a locker. Once in awhile I just go crazy and use a nonlocker where the rules say I should. I am such a rebel!
mikebarter387 1 year ago
Hey Mike, I'm a real fan of your series, but for this video I might have a suggestion. You fix the rope with a munter to prevent it from falling down to the anker. That 's ok, but I always make an overhand knot, take a carabiner and fix it direct to my belay sling on my harness. The reason for this is that if I have leaded that route and the anker (bolt) brakes out of the wall I'll only fall down to my next quickdraw/friend whatever. For sure it is necessary that my belayer is still belaying :)
JabbawockCGN 1 year ago
@JabbawockCGN That was a clove hitch not a munter, and I'm not sure I would trust an overhand knot to hold me on a fall... why not just figure 8?
vkelsov 1 year ago
@JabbawockCGN It was a clove hitch that I used. The only point to the knot/hitch is to keep from dropping the rope. Any of the others would work.
mikebarter387 11 months ago
Mike Barter is my hero
gmjohnson77 1 year ago
mike what kind of rope do you preferr for sprt climbing?
paintbaler94 2 years ago
I guess that would depend on where you are at. Your first rope should be 60 meters and 10.5 By the time you wear that out your going to have a pretty good idea what you want next. As to what brand I don't have a favorite. I look for a sheath that is not to tight and not to loose. Goldylocks brand! I have a lot given to me over the last 15 years so which one is best I am not sure, sorry.
mikebarter387 2 years ago
@paintbaler94 It might be worth also saying, because I dont know what previous knowledge to bring to this or not and some people actually have made this mistake, is that you want dynamic rope not a static rope unless you dont really value the ability to walk. A dry rope too is not really a must but I dont think I would buy anything but
AlSwearengen15 11 months ago
how do you collect the quick draws you used on your way up??
paintbaler94 2 years ago
You could try asking your belayer to stop lowering then grab the draw and continue lowering after you have clipped it to your harness. repeat as required. So simple it just might work your thinking.
The Mike
mikebarter387 2 years ago
HOT
thebksfriend 2 years ago
Not sure which harness is not full strenght. Avoiding KN all the harnesses that I have in this house test out at a min 6000 lb load. If it is a belay loop I assume it is plenty strong. I have had a fair bit of noise about the girthing the belay loop is going to wear down the material. I have to dismiss this as nonsense but people are serious enough to send death threats to my pets. I don't think you have to worry much unless your wearing a Todd Skinner hand me down harness. Thanks for your .02
mikebarter387 2 years ago
True about doing it right the first time is best. You'd only have to pull up a few more inches than we have here to tie a knot into your harness though. I look forward to the re-shoot.
csuwehling 2 years ago
Other quick point is know YOUR harness. Some belay loops are full strength and some aren't. on a full strength the only downside of girthing into it is its a single failure point, but so is your runner so its just your choice. That's my $.02
Thanks for the video Mike. Its really nice for people to see this BEFORE they leave the ground...
csuwehling 2 years ago
Just 2 quick points/options to throw in.
So the first option is a way to fix the redundancy of your tie in to the anchor clove hitch your rope to the anchor like he did and then take a clove or 8 on a bight between the anchor and belay and clip that to your harness. One runner to the right, tied in with rope to the left. Voila!
csuwehling 2 years ago
That would certainly work, just that you would have to pull up a mess of rope. Might as well just do it right from the start. I will show you in the re-shoot
mikebarter387 2 years ago
Hi Mike, I've been watching your vids for the last couple of weeks and I really enjoy them.
I want to say a concern I have with your lowering off of chain like this. I would never get my self lowered off anything that I don't know what it's been through. This chain could be hit by hundres of rocks making it's round shape have small edges that can cut the rope while moving down. Instead I would make a rappel and lower my self without moving the rope. Can someone comment on what would be better?
zlobber 2 years ago
About the belay loop. I never belay on it, but I use a sling with a biner to station myself.
I hope my English is good enough to understand me
zlobber 2 years ago
Hilti expansion bolts are for construction purposes not life support systems in climbing. My skateboard helmet is the best climbing helmet I have ever owned. Those who made quick links I am sure had no idea we would be using them this way. I can go on but I have to disagree that this is a unsafe practice. Worth debating and I will let folks decide for themselves.
The Mike
mikebarter387 2 years ago
Healthy comments are fine but if your going to be stupid like whats his name that was just here I will erase your post and block you.
mikebarter387 2 years ago
Your tethering system is not redundant. The weak point here is the webbing and biner you're attaching to the anchors with, not the anchors. You should use that extra webbing to make a second tether instead of clipping the chains together.
taydude89 2 years ago
Not bad idea
mikebarter387 2 years ago
When thinking about it. In the real world I most likely clip in the way that I do but I would also take a couple draws and daisy them to the second chain as a back up. I am guessing the fact that I am only a foot off the ground and that I only had three draws total on me prevented this. HHHMM things to think about in future videos are the little details. I am the biggest chicken out there and am much more redundant then I need to be most times.
mikebarter387 2 years ago
You guys have enough valid points that a re-shoot and edit are justified. Not sure that anybody would get hurt doing it this way but if there is a safer way then that is what we should be teaching, Thanks I should get this out fairly soon.
The Mike
mikebarter387 2 years ago
Not redundant but sufficient. Double tethering all your clips into anchors can be time consuming/clustering and can possibly work against you in cases where you need to get moving.
dbb6 2 years ago
However, you should have checked the sewn sling (runner) before you left the ground with it.... i.e. carefully inspect the condition of every inch of both sides of the sling's webbing, and the condition of the load-bearing stitching (meaning that no cuts, burns, or any significant traces of wear are present) Likewise the carabiner should have been inspected for wear, gate closure, any bending/warping, and general integrity.
dbb6 2 years ago
And if not that same day, a chain of custody similar to what crime dramas depict when handling evidence should ensure the integrity of each piece of PPE. Why would anyone go through all the trouble to have a system, check the harness, etc. and then lean back on a sewn sling that some cat had been gnawing on the night previous, or that had had a chemical spilled on it.
While I would never hang on a single friction hitch, I would single tether to a bomber anchor.
dbb6 2 years ago
PS I'm not sure he suggested the tether-to-the-anchor (sling+'biner) was redundant, but the 'anchor' was in truth redundant because there were 2 bomber anchor points. The point being, if a piece blew (in this case if a bolt pulled out), the other piece (bolt) is a redundant backup for the blown piece.
But better safe than sorry, right? The end.
(this was a reply to someone shaming Joe Mckai for having a non-redundant anchor according to he)
dbb6 2 years ago
I have to agree on te redundant part. Hoping to get a chance to reshoot this in the next day or so. Like I mentioneda second runner to the harness would solve and or be a better solution. if I was Actually sport climbing I would have had a lot more runners at hand. One should not hang off of one piece of webbing if it can be helped.
mikebarter387 2 years ago
Never girth hitch in to the belay loop, use the abrasion resistant tie-in point instead.
elvis237 2 years ago
I disagree
mikebarter387 2 years ago
I'm sorry mike, you're vids are some of the best I've seen, and I wouldn't pick if it wasn't a life support situation. A lot of people girth the BL, but it simply is not designed for that purpose, like the tie in point is. Sorry.
elvis237 2 years ago
If you are wearing a Todd Skinner hand me down harness perhaps. The sling and biner are a fraction of the strength of the belay loop. So I guess we have to agree to disagree.
mikebarter387 2 years ago
Well Mike, I would have to say the daisy to harness attachment method method you use is what most people use, but it is not what the harness designers & manufacturers intended or recommend. Heck, I have climbed with (he has caught hundreds of my falls!) an experienced climber that won't even belay off the belay loop! Really, no offense intended, we all have our own ways of doing things. Rock On, Mike!
elvis237 2 years ago
I think it is healthy to debate this. Nobody should be taking anything off the internet as gospel (especially the gospel). Hopefully they will take this advice from you and ask around then decide for themselves. You tube is not may not be the best climbing school out there. (having said that I did more less teach myself to kite ski last winter off of YT. Really I could be making this shit up or paraphrasing Freedom of the Hills how would anybody really know.
mikebarter387 2 years ago
love the joke, i'm gonna use it. Easy 5.13 lol
HTCProductionStudios 2 years ago
Good stuff as always Mike. Hey, would it be better to yell "Take" instead of "Get ready to lower", simply to avoid confunsion? What if the belayer misses the "Get ready" part and just starts to lower? No impending tragedy, but still.
caryallendavis 2 years ago
I agree with you. Mistake on my part.
mikebarter387 2 years ago