Why the "election" of the EU Commission president has to be in secret? People should know which of their representatives have voted for whom. Secret "elections" for a such a high representation position is not tolerable. Every election in the EU Parliament needs to be made OPEN and not secretly.
@lmonk321 How about a requirement of 2/3 or 3/4ths for approval. That limits the power of the majority to rule the minority. It might take longer to get things approved, but it would filter out more bad, and allow more good to pass...
The problem is- Farage &Co(and maybe so you) dosn't like EU as construct. So than- what is good for him (you)? Smash it! There is no "good" or "bad"-just SMASH EU! He speaks for GB and gives a sh.. for the others. He exploits the others and they exploits him (Le Pen, Lega Nord, Klaus, Strache etc)500 millions people- and they tell them- Hey! WE are THE Nation- let's kick their ass, we want just make bussines with them-thats all! It's primitive and it dosn't work in a globalworld!
Barroso uwittingly supported farage by that reply. Voted in his own words by a secret panel of the representatives there NOT the peoples of the various eu nations.
MrsVegascrush you have no fucking idea about what it means literally to be a politician.. THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTABLE POLITICIANS AND ONE OF THE FEW THAT DESERVE TO REPRESENT PEOPLE.. stupid people should not even have internet to share a comment.. seriously..
dictators used to grab power, with hitler they voted a dictator in ..in the case of UK they spend 40 million a day to make sure they have a dictator who doesnt even speak their language..
gotta give it to the EU commies ..they've done their homework
we need people like old nige to get these capitalist bastards bang to rights. theyre robbing us blind and with weak leaders like cameron and clegg and miliband who wont let us have our referendum on europe. GET BACK ARE SOVEREIGNTY. ( DOWN WITH CENTRAL BANKS ) (DOWN WITH POWER TO THE FEW )
@MrFpenteado- ?? go and grow a brain before you make comments like that- he is an elected MEP you thick arse hole!! what the fuck does "Nigger Farage" mean- is that the best insult you can come up with?? fuck you and fuck the EU
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And who the f*** elected this Nigel? Was he elected? And he is payed tens of thousands of EUROS for going up there and tell the EU is shit!! So Nigger Farage, resign and live in an island all by yourself! Wrap some fatty chips in a newspaper along with your displaced and racist british sense of superiority and stick up it yours!
Nigel Farage was elected just like other MEPs. He represents those who elected him in our European elections. He feels as I do, that the EU is a hugely expensive, anti-democratic, bureaucratic entity that we do not need. We are quite capable of deciding on our own laws and co-operating with international bodies when appropriate.
The British people need to elect people who feel the same way to the Westminster not the pro-EU ones we always elect in NATIONAL elections or we'll always be members.
Nigel Farage was elected just like the rest. He represents those who elected him in our European elections. He feels as I do, that the EU is a hugely expensive, anti-democratic, bureaucratic entity that we do not need. We are quite capable of deciding on our own laws and co-operating with international bodies when appropriate.
The British people need to elect people who feel the same way to the Westminster not the pro-EU ones we always elect in NATIONAL elections or we'll always be members.
Nigel Farage was elected just like the rest. He represents those who elected him in our European elections. He feels as I do, that the EU is a hugely expensive, anti-democratic, bureaucratic entity that we do not need. We are quite capable of deciding on our own laws and co-operating with international bodies when appropriate.
The British people need to elect people who feel the same way to the Westminster not the pro-EU ones we always elect in NATIONAL elections or we'll always be members.
Nigel Farage was elected just like the rest. He represents those who elected him in our European elections. He feels as I do, that the EU is a hugely expensive, anti-democratic, bureaucratic entity that we do not need. We are quite capable of deciding on our own laws and co-operating with international bodies when appropriate.
The British people need to elect people who feel the same way to the Westminster not the pro-EU ones we always elect in NATIONAL elections or we'll always be members.
Nigel Farage was elected just like the rest. He represents those who elected him in our European elections. He feels as I do, that the EU is a hugely expensive, anti-democratic, bureaucratic entity that we do not need. We are quite capable of deciding on our own laws and co-operating with international bodies when appropriate.
Merkel-Sarkozy: Farm work for Youth , w/ Wi-Fi N + natural organic farming-cooking+marketing : part-time jobs for all, b ) EXPORTS TRAINING IS KEY : EU needs One Million kids that know how to travel+close deals in 3 languages+Chinese, EU needs imagination+fun+local manufacturing solutions, right now ! Engage the Youth, they must know how Hedge-Funds are shorting ( betting against ) Europa and the EU, Fiscal Unity+Energy Independence + Solid Banks are key solutions, financialtools1.blogspot.com
@evilfroi you know nada about nada......do you know what was promised to the people the second time round ?? Let me tell you.. a protocol was supposed to be inserted for the protection of our corporation tax when croatia signed the treaty to join that was two weeks ago...NO PROTOCOL NADA...LIKE YOUR KNOWLEDGE NADA, NADA.....that is what we are up against liars, scumbags................you know nothing !!!
Barroso you fucking shit for brains communist motherfucker.......set foot in Ireland and , well.....i will leave it to your imagination.....scumbag , sucker of satan's cock !!!
@evilfroi i was thinking that you would not know that BARRASSO IS AN EX-MAOIST....not know that ? go figure , get your head out of your ass and do some research rather watching mainstream TV....dodo lol
CNN and Fox use of fake video from soccer incidents + Greek riots to spin lies against Russia's December 2011 elections is insulting + the neocon media in the USA is totally silent about it : what a criminal SHAME ! this is not American ! 2 ) YouTube can talk about the 5 trillion euros in assets that the oligarchs stole from the Russian People in the 90's,they must pay for them or give them back to the Russian People + to distract they try to crash Euro-EU Markets, financialtools1.blogspot.com
@evilfroi "the crisis wasn't triggered by the Euro. But by always lending and spending" - I agree with this.
Surely you would agree that the Euro eliminates an automatic stabiliser that other nations have, and that the legislative harmonisation process eliminates a number of other automatic stabilisers within the state economies.
Would you also agree that there was tremendous EU directed inefficient spending pumping up national growth rates in the last decade?
@2plus2make4 It does, EU overestimated itself by not working out a waterproof system should the currency be endangered before introducing the currency. We'll just have to pay the price for it now. But I don't believe it's a reason to abandon the Euro just yet.
And yes, the different tax rates in countries will become difficult to harmonise. It's a big risk they shouldn't take now when there is no trust.
Inefficient how? On long or short term? Or just inefficient?
@evilfroi We agree on the first point. But I think the conceit of keeping the Euro will damn the poor citizens of southern Europe to life in debt servitude and exxacerbate the misallocation of capital resources in northern Europe. Cheaper to admit the error.
Tax is just one item - natural productivity varies across regions. Harmonisation threatens the larger goals of peace and fair trade.
Inefficiency on economic value basis. I wouldnt think this is contentious
@2plus2make4 I believe all those things can in fact be harmonised if they just work out a fair system. I don't know how, but it's something we have to work on. I really can't see how it will harm peace/ fair trade if it's executed properly.
Most of the budget has gone to agriculture. But how would you have them spend then? A lot of regions and farmers were in dire need of the money in order to survive. If they'd spent more on R&D they'd be under fire for the social injustice they have caused.
@evilfroi No doubt they can be harmonised but the costs are prohibitive in many cases.
Harmonisation efforts in practise have often been economically foolhardy - why not exploit comparative advantage? The people can see the waste and corruption.
The goal should be peace and fair trade - if this happens it will be the people dragging politicans toward closer unity and not the other way around. Forcing harmonisation onto people jeopardises the larger goals.
@2plus2make4 That's true but isn't it a pity that all the hard work from the past will have to be done all over again in the future? Then you have the risk of getting into an endless cycle.
Besides, why can't they work out a system in which comparative and absolute advantages can still exist, not only among the participating states themselves, but towards the whole world?
@evilfroi I see this a different way. The EC needs to slow down before the citizens tear down the previous work. Some of it was good (peace and fair trade!!)
Forcing a governance system onto people that dont want it, imposing a monetary system that forces generations into unemployment is not only immoral - but it is unsustainable.
Comparative advantage does exist - a system that doesnt recognize this will eventually be overthrown by its own population. Why support building such a system
@2plus2make4 Then again they have the same amount of criticism now so it's never going to be good enough for the world. Which doesn't mean they should give up. As long as there is no constructive criticism or viable alternatives, then they should keep going.
@evilfroi The criticism is so vocal because the people are not benefitting from the governance structure.
There is a huge amount of constructive criticism. The academic literature (from europeans and from other nations) is full of anlysis about the Euro design faults going back for more than a decade. The solutions are well known and understood.
There are viable alternatives to pushing ahead. There are huge risks in forcing governance without consent of the population
@2plus2make4 That does cancel all the pro's of the EU in an economic aspect.
I never said I agreed with all the EU's decisions, but the idea of being united and enjoying safety and comfort. Perhaps not all decisions add to this idea, but still a lot of them do.
In the end I believe the EU will set things straight. All governments make mistakes.
@evilfroi No it doesnt - the benefits can still be had.
You can measure the deadweight loss that has been created. There are definately large benefits from the single market - but they have been offset by the cross subisidisation and harmonisation efforts. The people can see this - the markets have recognised it.
@evilfroi Agree all govts make mistakes, and Im not so much concerned with the fact they have made mistakes - more that they are knowingly making the same mistake again for political rather than economic reasons.
The govt has, and is continuing to create structural imbalances. The costs of doing this are large and unjust. It will probably end as badly as each other time in history an aristocratic group has tried to impose an imbalanced system onto a population that does not support it.
Nigel fighting for the people? He doesn't care about you, he cares about his own money. Convenient for him he gains popularity among the uneducated and the ignorant of our economic society.
He DOES NOT represent a better future. There is no "European mob".
The EU thinks in long term. If your short term greed is harmed by this, too bad.
@evilfroi Yet he represents the opposition. Without him, there'd be no alternative to the european union, something i personally find pretty frightening, because one of the cornerstones of democracy is opposition to the rulership, and The EU likes to view itself as a democratic institution, does it not?
@evilfroi you don't no what your talking about. britain pays 50 million per day 75 % of our laws are made there in brussels by these people in this paliment we can't deport foreign criminals we have open boarders to all plus poor countrys joined the eurozone which more are gonna join and the germans the french and so on are gonna have to pay to bail them out. the euro is a disgrace and so are u look to what its done
@uatch yes but do you know what Britain gets?Do you know what other countries pay?
There are no EU laws that prevent any country from deporting illegal people. If you have already given them British papers, that's your institution's problem. You can always deny immigrants papers or give them temporary papers. Immigration laws are almost the same everywhere in western, civilized countries. Those open boarders were established to ease all trade etc. And they still have their benefits too.
@evilfroi ehm bullcrap mate, do you know i an eu country hands out eu passports they can come to britain freely, we in britain cannot do anything against eu legislation
@Tommonius Nope, go to wikipedia => wiki/Passports_of_the_European_Union read: EU itself does not issue passports
but! Some EU states also issue non-EU passports to certain people who have a nationality which does not render them citizens of the European Union (e.g., British Overseas Territories Citizens except those with a connection to Gibraltar, British Nationals (Overseas), British Overseas Citizens, British Protected Persons and British Subjects)
@uatch However I agree on the fact that we shouldn't have let everyone join the EU. They didn't think there'd be a crisis that could endanger our financial stability and so it's true they bet on the wrong horse there. The idea was that those growing countries could strengthen our stability after our help, but then the crisis came etc etc.
The Euro has only done good. You think the countries in Europe would've done better without the Euro? No, they would've done worse. The EU is not to blame.
@uatch wow, just because the currency is experiencing some turbulency doesn't mean it's over...
Imagine if the Euro never existed:
1. No country from the eurozone would ever reach the growth rates they reached
2. The crisis would've hit even HARDER on the independent countries.
But just because they are independent, doesn't mean the neighbouring countries won't feel the effect. So basically the Euro has always been a blessing. Don't believe everything you read/see in the news.
@uatch Mind you btw that the crisis wasn't triggered by the Euro. But by always lending and spending money that wasn't there. Who's to blame? Society, ourselves, greed,...
Capitalism only works without greed. Because now, you can speculate and spread fear and doubt to fill your own pockets. That's another something that triggered the crisis. The ridiculous rating system :s That is in fact a thing that has caused more harm than it's done good. Why don't you focus on that instead of the euro/EU?
@reamyglad Leaving the EU behind is doesn't seem like a good alternative to me. Most countries will go back to being even more poor than now.Every country's growth will be set back even more than it has already been set back by this crisis.
We've always had times of growth since the EU really formed in the 90's.Just because there's a bump in the road now doesn't mean we have to start panicking immediately and give up on something that hasn't really been given a proper chance in times of crisis.
@evilfroi yes too bad we are giving up all our countries power to the bully boys in Brussels. A group of people who are unelected and can remove heads of countries and replace them with others as they see fit.
I MEAN HOW DARE THE GREEK LEADER TRY AND HAVE A REFERENDUM! seriously how can you not see the problem reforming into a europeon state is not a long term solution
@Tommonius the bully boys in Brussels? Germany and France have the biggest influence in the EU so I wouldn't say all countries lost their power to the EU. Without the EU the smaller countries would still be under influence of more powerful countries like Germany, etc. So there's absolutely no truth in what you said.
The Greek leader had no right to have a referendum AFTER already accepting France & Germany's money and agreeing to their conditions.
@Tommonius If he had had the referendum before he had already accepted the agreement, then there wouldn't have been a problem. Imagine you give someone money under some conditions and he accepts and then says: "yeah, I can't go by your rules because my family doesn't agree so your money is basically gone/not well spent now." That's just not done.
Without the EU, every country would suffer from even more poverty and recession. Especially countries like Spain, Italy, Greece,... etc
@evilfroi oh really because I remember the idea that if the greeks leave the eu and take their own currency back, they can devalue their currency to compete.
remember iceland? banks went under and their was no bailouts and yet they took the hit and are now growing by 3%
besides this was originaly a trade agreement, that was what we signed up for, no one of my age has had a vote on this and now they want more intergration, well I say no.
@evilfroi I understand that, I highlighted them as a sucess though. yes their has been a huge blow to their economy but they are healing, can we say the greeks are healing, they needed a 2nd bail out and are not in sight of sorting this problem out. getting their currency back and devaluing it is a viable solution, they should of never been in the euro anyway and should not be in it now, one currency cannot fit countries as differant as germany and greece
@Tommonius I'm not sure, I guess we'll never know.
But when I look at Greece's records from the past, I don't think they would have made it with their independent currency either. Their economy has always been weak.
Indeed they shouldn't have been in the monetary union as they didn't meet the requirements. But they can't step out now or the Euro will collapse completely and then we're all in serious trouble. When trust is restored they can start looking for alternatives.
@evilfroi I think you miss the point - With an independent currency they never would have been able to get into the scale of trouble they are now in - costs would be prohibitive at lower level of distress
The issue is not trust - but solvency
Im interested in your reasoning of serious trouble if Euro collapses. Plenty of currencies have failed and/or devalued historically - Apart from the egos of the bureacrats what do you think is different about this?
@2plus2make4 I'm not so sure about that. Greek economy has always been very weak, they were going to have the same issues without the Euro but perhaps not as soon as now. It's true that it wouldn't have cost as much as it cost us now. But not letting them join the monetary union wasn't an option then. It would've caused tension between the participating countries from the start and not make for a good foundation for the union.
I dont think you can say this - The subsidies allowed much greater spending than would otherwise be the case. You cant sell someone crack and then complain about them being a crack addict...
Of course not joining was an option. See Denmark et al.
@2plus2make4 Denmark had the choice to enter in the monetary union but didn't want to. Greece did want to join, so denying them entrance would cause tension.
If their spending won't pay off in the future, then everything you say is true.
But I'm not sure if we can already say that all of their spending will not have an effect in the future as we don't know what the future brings.
@evilfroi By they do you mean the EU or the people? No doubt the people have to make it work - governance is needed.
The EU as it is currently configured doesnt necesarily have to work out - governments come and go, or are reformed all the time.
Im an economist not an historian - but my view would be that if the EU doesnt reform itself the people will eventually replace it with new governance that creates less imbalances and costs.
@2plus2make4 the problem with devaluation is that it can lead to decreasing wealth to neighbouring countries or the country itself. The people now are spoiled with goods they will no longer be able to afford. All kind of investments will have to be cut (education, infrastructure) which will make us even weaker on the market. We have issues competing as it is already. Even with the lower rent rates after devaluating, we will still be too expensive to attract investments. So we will keep plumeting
@evilfroi I think you miss the point on devaluation.
Markets have devalued these regions. Forcing a capital cross subsidisation across the euro zone to pretend this isnt true wont change this. The cost of pretending is making everyone poorer.
Trying to pretend that the productivity of Spain/Italy/Germany/France is the same is laughable. Why not allow the people a chance to improve their situation instead of damning a generation of europeans to uncompetitiveness.
@2plus2make4 I do get the point of devaluation but I don't believe the increased investmens after devaluation will make a difference on long term.
I think the problem with the countries in the south is, you can't just leave them out because they are weaker. Waiting till they become stronger is also not an option since that day may never come.
The facts are on the table, so they can be worked/dealt with and I believe that's what the EU is doing every day.
@2plus2make4 It's not working out for them. They barely have any industry whatsoever. Why do you think fascism was so popular there? In times of financial crisis these countries cannot compete, will be poor & that always leads to regimes that should be avoided. That is why they will need our continueing support.
@evilfroi They have less industry because of their lower productivity and the terms of trade subsidy provided to the northern states. This same scenario has happened repeatedly thoughout history and the economic consequences are well understood.
They need your support as peaceful friends and fair trading partners. Not as central planners and industrial slace masters.
I can tell that you honestly think that you are helping them - but these policies are tremendously harmful.
@2plus2make4 If you really think they were competitive before the economic union that might be true, but they weren't. Ok, times have changed. But I don't think a lot has changed on that matter. If we're going to trade with them in stead of cheaper and better trade partners, then I don't really see the difference? Apart from the fact the image and trust in the European union and participating countries will be damaged which will lead to lower ratings.
@2plus2make4 With as consequence a higher rate of interest, after which the Euro (or the individual currencies, if we change back to them) will get devaluated to return to our original already uncompetetive rate of interest. It's likely to go like that and it just seems a waste of money and effort to me.
@evilfroi I worry that the policies you are encouraging will create the very things that you want to prevent.
I have no wish to see the probable social consequences of the economic outcomes of these policies. No matter how well intentioned the people creating the policies are.
You should observe the anger in your fellow citizens comments, voices and polls and think through whether enslaving them is a wise course of action - let alone a moral one.
@2plus2make4 Well the voice on the internet alone isn't a trustworthy source. I think a refenderum will lead to a no-vote in some countries like the UK, just because they are more worried about themselves than the rest of the world. But the rest of the participating countries will vote yes I believe. The problem is that one no-vote can destroy everything for the other countries, which I don't find democratic. Forcing people into something they didn't want isn't democratic either, I know.
@evilfroi I dont think it will destoy everything. Most enlightened people want to see peace and fair trade, it would just mean the unification process would slow down until the population catches up or finds a level of interaction that is most economically or politically stable.
What should we think of a governance system that is not supported by its citizens?
@2plus2make4 I really think that if it were that easy, they would've done that already. We're probably overlooking some important consequences or something.
The EU will intervene at some point and find a solution. I think the only reason why they haven't done so already is because the cries of the people don't reach them. My interpretation of this is that not the majority of people is crying out for change yet. A larger number of people these days maybe, but still not the majority.
Agree they will intervene (already have done so). The question is whether the intevention will result in something more dangerous and unsustainable - which is my view.
I dont have a problem that you want to reserve your view until you see what happens, or even if you end up disagreeing with me. I hope it will work out and that people arent forced to resort to violence again.
@2plus2make4 But who can foresee the outcome beforehand? If we choose the UK side, things might turn out bad for everyone. But listening to your arguments, which are true also, granting more power to the EU might also endanger the future for everyone.
Either way it will always be a bet, and the seemingly safest bet can still turn into a nightmare if you take into account how quickly the markets can change.
@biskalero And fuck the future of your children? Of all of our children? The hypocrisy is huge here. You might believe that this EU I support will lead to what I just said.
I believe the mentality you support will lead to this. And I'm quite sure that's not just my opinion.
Oh and still... the conspiracy theories? If those accusations were based on facts from reliable sources, the whole world would've known it to be true. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
@evilfroi GOLDMAN SACHS.....two ELECTED GOVERNMENTS were removed from power GOLDMAN SACHS EMPLOYEES OUT IN THERE PLACE....no conspiracy are just stupid !! MARIO MONTI = GOLDMAN SACHS , MARIO DRAGHI = GOLDMAN SACHS, PAPEDEMUS = GOLDMAN SACHS......shall i go on ? o yeah they are all UN-ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE LIKE VAN ROMPUY, BARRASSO, ASHTON....the list goes on and on and on........research for fuck sake !!!
@evilfroi so you are supporting un-elected people to govern you ? we are here already dude...A EU DICTATORSHIP...it is as simple as that.......still don''t get it ???? well....
@evilfroi just want elected people to govern my country not unelected bankers and wankers...still don't get it do you ? people fought and died to give us some freedom and we are handing it all away in the name of saving the big banks.....dear god !!!
@biskalero you're not giving up your freedom idiot... You won't even notice a difference. Stop whining and let the people who know what's best do their job. There are so many politicians, even in the EU that I doubt it's possible they'll all want to take your freedom away from you because they care so much. They're not dumb, you know... There's no profit from enslaving people as is shown by history. It only leads to instability which is what the EU wants to prevent.
@biskalero I agree on your point "fuck the rating agencies" though. They cause more harm than they prevent. Those should be a focus of protest instead of the EU.
@evilfroi hey dude i am all for Europe but not a EUSSR soviet style political union..and don't bring children into this dude....our children will thank us for our BALLS which you don't have.....so stop with the fuckin bullshit.....we in Ireland voted NO to the Nice Treaty , we voted NO to the Lisbon Treaty...and the second time round both referendums were rigged and the votes were rigged.....so don't talk to me about children and their futures...you know nothing...nada !!!
@biskalero You must be experiencing a different EU than myself. Rigged? Please...
You have only seen the facts from one side. Before you can judge you should see the facts given to you by the other side.
"Correspondents say many voters did not understand the treaty despite a high-profile campaign led by Mr Cowen, which had the support of most of the country's main parties." This is the face of fascism. Using people's votes who don't understand the situation.
@evilfroi Most off the economics profession - these issues and the solutions have been discussed ad nauseum for more than a decade. This is not one of those topics where the austrians and keynsians are in heated debate.
Im not trying to suggest that we know everything - or even much for that matter but this topic is well understood (one of the few).
I dont think it is a matrer of choosing sides (im not from the UK). I would like to see people trade with each other in peace
@evilfroi Note this is not just a problem for the southern countries - they have spent too much money they didnt have - but the cross subsidisation has resulted in a sub optimal capital allocation in Germany/France/Austria/Netherlands.
It will take a maintenance cycle for these losses to be written off - why would you want to increase this?
I agree hindsight is pointless, in fact if the Eu thought of a differant soluton to Greece I might support them, but they are doing the same thing, raising bailout funds
and cutting greek spending, no growth at all. did not work the first time and they needed a second bailout, and if it goes wrong again they will do a 3rd bailout. Thus i want greece to have a referendum on leaving the Eu and maybe just take the pain and default on their debt
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EU=NWO.
My message to my beloved country (England) and the UK.
Get out of the EU now, before you either loose all your rights or before the whole lot collapses!
1000frolly 14 hours ago
ive been elected in a secret vote in this parliament =z
Guildforsucks 2 days ago
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Watch a huge playlist for Ron Paul, includes many hip hop and music tracks - all select videos. Subscribe for new videos
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ashwadhwani 3 days ago
Respect is earned you Portuguese Autocrat!
s13hgp 3 days ago
ROLFMAO ive been elected by this parlament in a secret vote !!!!! yeah that sounds very legit in a democracy ????? WAKE UP PEOPLE
Unplugged1977 5 days ago
NIGEL IN CHARGE OF EUROPE & RON PAUL RUNNING THE STATES.
Maybe we will get our freedom and money back?
Unplugged1977 5 days ago
Comment removed
Unplugged1977 5 days ago
COMMUNISM ALL OVER,THE PEOPLE WILL ONE DAY DECIDE!!!!
salian66 1 week ago
PUT THE E.U IN THE TOILET AND FLUSH IT DOWN THE DRAIN!!!!
salian66 1 week ago
Why the "election" of the EU Commission president has to be in secret? People should know which of their representatives have voted for whom. Secret "elections" for a such a high representation position is not tolerable. Every election in the EU Parliament needs to be made OPEN and not secretly.
nevill81 1 week ago
@nevill81 glad you put election in speech marks, he wasn't elected as the yellow writing said. It was "appointed" by the Council of Europe...
simpleasLiam 6 days ago
Haha...they don't even understand each other...it's like a Babilon.
moveaxebx 1 week ago
Clear case of the minority being trumped by a majority. Anyone for Democracy?
heavym3tal 1 week ago
@heavym3tal
do you know an other sort of democracy? Or what do you want? That 5% tell 95%, what to do?
lmonk321 1 week ago
@lmonk321 How about a requirement of 2/3 or 3/4ths for approval. That limits the power of the majority to rule the minority. It might take longer to get things approved, but it would filter out more bad, and allow more good to pass...
heavym3tal 1 week ago
The problem is- Farage &Co(and maybe so you) dosn't like EU as construct. So than- what is good for him (you)? Smash it! There is no "good" or "bad"-just SMASH EU! He speaks for GB and gives a sh.. for the others. He exploits the others and they exploits him (Le Pen, Lega Nord, Klaus, Strache etc)500 millions people- and they tell them- Hey! WE are THE Nation- let's kick their ass, we want just make bussines with them-thats all! It's primitive and it dosn't work in a globalworld!
lmonk321 6 days ago
@lmonk321 globalism has proven not to work, the EU is the perfect example.
gerryboy3699 6 days ago
testosterone overflow at the end.
sthoverthere 1 week ago
a secret vote? No room for secret voting in democracies
ShavenTroll 1 week ago 2
Barroso uwittingly supported farage by that reply. Voted in his own words by a secret panel of the representatives there NOT the peoples of the various eu nations.
chitownmo 1 week ago
Barroso and Schultz=EU Pigs
TheArkanTiger 2 weeks ago 2
he has balls
philipposanastasiou 2 weeks ago
MrsVegascrush you have no fucking idea about what it means literally to be a politician.. THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTABLE POLITICIANS AND ONE OF THE FEW THAT DESERVE TO REPRESENT PEOPLE.. stupid people should not even have internet to share a comment.. seriously..
drakkana4 2 weeks ago 6
@drakkana4
Sieg Heil!
lmonk321 1 week ago
@drakkana4 Don't be a fascist, everyone deserves internet. Even her...
emmmg333 6 days ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Typical british agressive wanna be politicians!!
MrsVegascrush 3 weeks ago
@MrsVegascrush Wanna be? He IS.
hearv888 3 weeks ago
@hearv888 Not only he is a politician, but also he loves what he does!! You can really tell by the look on his face, that he loves to annoy them.
fglp666 3 days ago
smart man
seatown001 3 weeks ago in playlist More videos from gerryboy3699
secret vote...?
seatown001 3 weeks ago
Ron Paul; of Europe....guess they will wait to listen until it's to late .. like whats happening in the USA
seatown001 3 weeks ago 12
@seatown001 exactly right im not living in usa but i can see what usa is going through
wayne17700 15 hours ago
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Nigel sucks big ballsacks. The Bart Simpson looking imbred Brit
shalinsfinest 3 weeks ago
@shalinsfinest says a lot doesn't it... when a inbred brit owns the Nwo right in front of their faces...
hearv888 3 weeks ago
Give Niegel some nukes!
ApaleutosMits 4 weeks ago
dictators used to grab power, with hitler they voted a dictator in ..in the case of UK they spend 40 million a day to make sure they have a dictator who doesnt even speak their language..
gotta give it to the EU commies ..they've done their homework
kdcruz75 1 month ago
What a shame to see what these idiots are doing with our money, they should all be fired.
TWSceptic 1 month ago
@TWSceptic i think there is some sort of rule there where the top people cant be fired or arrested if they do wrong
2010butchd 1 month ago
I guess Barosso was thinking 'I hate youuuuuuuuuuuu'
fapsqpz 1 month ago
we need people like old nige to get these capitalist bastards bang to rights. theyre robbing us blind and with weak leaders like cameron and clegg and miliband who wont let us have our referendum on europe. GET BACK ARE SOVEREIGNTY. ( DOWN WITH CENTRAL BANKS ) (DOWN WITH POWER TO THE FEW )
frankikills 1 month ago
@MrFpenteado- ?? go and grow a brain before you make comments like that- he is an elected MEP you thick arse hole!! what the fuck does "Nigger Farage" mean- is that the best insult you can come up with?? fuck you and fuck the EU
Domin8tor007 1 month ago
thank god farage!
999firestarter 1 month ago
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And who the f*** elected this Nigel? Was he elected? And he is payed tens of thousands of EUROS for going up there and tell the EU is shit!! So Nigger Farage, resign and live in an island all by yourself! Wrap some fatty chips in a newspaper along with your displaced and racist british sense of superiority and stick up it yours!
MrFpenteado 1 month ago
Nigel Farage was elected just like other MEPs. He represents those who elected him in our European elections. He feels as I do, that the EU is a hugely expensive, anti-democratic, bureaucratic entity that we do not need. We are quite capable of deciding on our own laws and co-operating with international bodies when appropriate.
The British people need to elect people who feel the same way to the Westminster not the pro-EU ones we always elect in NATIONAL elections or we'll always be members.
tamora07 1 month ago
Nigel Farage was elected just like the rest. He represents those who elected him in our European elections. He feels as I do, that the EU is a hugely expensive, anti-democratic, bureaucratic entity that we do not need. We are quite capable of deciding on our own laws and co-operating with international bodies when appropriate.
The British people need to elect people who feel the same way to the Westminster not the pro-EU ones we always elect in NATIONAL elections or we'll always be members.
tamora07 1 month ago
Nigel Farage was elected just like the rest. He represents those who elected him in our European elections. He feels as I do, that the EU is a hugely expensive, anti-democratic, bureaucratic entity that we do not need. We are quite capable of deciding on our own laws and co-operating with international bodies when appropriate.
The British people need to elect people who feel the same way to the Westminster not the pro-EU ones we always elect in NATIONAL elections or we'll always be members.
tamora07 1 month ago
Nigel Farage was elected just like the rest. He represents those who elected him in our European elections. He feels as I do, that the EU is a hugely expensive, anti-democratic, bureaucratic entity that we do not need. We are quite capable of deciding on our own laws and co-operating with international bodies when appropriate.
The British people need to elect people who feel the same way to the Westminster not the pro-EU ones we always elect in NATIONAL elections or we'll always be members.
tamora07 1 month ago
Nigel Farage was elected just like the rest. He represents those who elected him in our European elections. He feels as I do, that the EU is a hugely expensive, anti-democratic, bureaucratic entity that we do not need. We are quite capable of deciding on our own laws and co-operating with international bodies when appropriate.
tamora07 1 month ago
fuck European Socialist Union, thumb up for people like Nigel, who are not scared to tell the truth that lies behind
Codocera 1 month ago
I love the guy. He makes it look like the old Roman Senate :D Soon, Baroso gets knifed by 24 senate members
JokeeGA5 1 month ago
great music:));
I'm a portuguese citizen, and I must say that this Barroso is a fucking tragedy.
deltango12345 1 month ago
Not many of the elecorate realise that the UK contribution is quadrupling over 6 years! Spread the word among your friends!
LeamingtonSteve 1 month ago
This is a great dogfight- just like in the Battle of Britain!
LeamingtonSteve 1 month ago
Elected in a secret vote! FUCKIN NAZIS
anchorman632 1 month ago
NIGEL EU PEOPLE LOVE YOU,GO ON NO STOPPING!!!!
dylanfloyd777 1 month ago 3
well said mr barosso
leo1237446 1 month ago
TO ALL OF THE CENTRAL BANK usurers SPY AND I KNOW THAT WE ARE HAPPY 'cause I know not to die a fool BUT REAL MEN.
TRELEW08 1 month ago
I DO NOT KNOW WHY 'BUT MOST' I LOOK TO THE FACE AND Shulz 'MORE' RACIST DIVENTO
TRELEW08 1 month ago
MISTER Farage HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF
BLOOD AGAINST GOLD
TRELEW08 1 month ago
Shulz're pathetic
TRELEW08 1 month ago
THE EURO AND 'THE GREAT FRAUD OF BANKERS usurers
TRELEW08 1 month ago
MISTER Farage TRUE ITALY SUPPORTS YOU
TRELEW08 1 month ago 2
Shulz you're no You're just a VOID '
TRELEW08 1 month ago
YOU KNOW YOU ARE IN ITALY Shulz ONLY A WAITER OF BANKER usurers
TRELEW08 1 month ago
ONLY YOU MISTER Nigel Farage against usurers European bankers
THE EURO AND 'A FRAUD
TRELEW08 1 month ago
3:45
the way he clap his hands reminds me a bit of the old day with communism.
jehal1978 1 month ago
@jehal1978 EUROPE AND 'IN THE HANDS OF usurers
TRELEW08 1 month ago
Lol mr. B. is like if Ted Bundy said about Gary Ridgway "That guy is innocent".
Kominex 1 month ago
Baroso is right, he was elected. An famous German was elected in the same manner although he was elected by the people. His name was Adolf Hitler.
benter1978 1 month ago
Merkel-Sarkozy: Farm work for Youth , w/ Wi-Fi N + natural organic farming-cooking+marketing : part-time jobs for all, b ) EXPORTS TRAINING IS KEY : EU needs One Million kids that know how to travel+close deals in 3 languages+Chinese, EU needs imagination+fun+local manufacturing solutions, right now ! Engage the Youth, they must know how Hedge-Funds are shorting ( betting against ) Europa and the EU, Fiscal Unity+Energy Independence + Solid Banks are key solutions, financialtools1.blogspot.com
financialtools1 1 month ago
Nope he's not
HammarbyBhoy 1 month ago
RIP Farage :(
FGXJK4500 1 month ago
@FGXJK4500 è morto????
geocarlo90 1 month ago
@FGXJK4500 Have you got the courage to explain what you mean by that comment exactly?
itsinmynamechap 1 month ago
The US federal government spends almost 4 billion a day.
damiaxxx 2 months ago
bunch of petty fucking idiots
rinseoutdrycleaner 2 months ago
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Io voglio poter votare quest' uomo
mckappe 2 months ago
@evilfroi you know nada about nada......do you know what was promised to the people the second time round ?? Let me tell you.. a protocol was supposed to be inserted for the protection of our corporation tax when croatia signed the treaty to join that was two weeks ago...NO PROTOCOL NADA...LIKE YOUR KNOWLEDGE NADA, NADA.....that is what we are up against liars, scumbags................you know nothing !!!
biskalero 2 months ago
Barroso you fucking shit for brains communist motherfucker.......set foot in Ireland and , well.....i will leave it to your imagination.....scumbag , sucker of satan's cock !!!
biskalero 2 months ago
@mongooseaudio We will see. If the EU is given a chance, things will work out.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi given a chance ? with un-elected communists and criminals.....dude do some research for the love of your country and family.......
biskalero 2 months ago
@biskalero communists, lol
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi i was thinking that you would not know that BARRASSO IS AN EX-MAOIST....not know that ? go figure , get your head out of your ass and do some research rather watching mainstream TV....dodo lol
biskalero 2 months ago
the eu all act like the best of friends theres only britain standing up for its own intrest and not becoming a puppet.
thethreelions3 2 months ago
Finally, a man with fucking balls, and lets not forget, he survived an airplane crash... Farage > Chuck Norris
AllanSanches 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
CNN and Fox use of fake video from soccer incidents + Greek riots to spin lies against Russia's December 2011 elections is insulting + the neocon media in the USA is totally silent about it : what a criminal SHAME ! this is not American ! 2 ) YouTube can talk about the 5 trillion euros in assets that the oligarchs stole from the Russian People in the 90's,they must pay for them or give them back to the Russian People + to distract they try to crash Euro-EU Markets, financialtools1.blogspot.com
financialtools1 2 months ago
alot of stupid cunts on here who don't no what there talking about.Do more research on this failed project
uatch 2 months ago
@uatch I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I am in fact educated in this matter.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi "the crisis wasn't triggered by the Euro. But by always lending and spending" - I agree with this.
Surely you would agree that the Euro eliminates an automatic stabiliser that other nations have, and that the legislative harmonisation process eliminates a number of other automatic stabilisers within the state economies.
Would you also agree that there was tremendous EU directed inefficient spending pumping up national growth rates in the last decade?
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 It does, EU overestimated itself by not working out a waterproof system should the currency be endangered before introducing the currency. We'll just have to pay the price for it now. But I don't believe it's a reason to abandon the Euro just yet.
And yes, the different tax rates in countries will become difficult to harmonise. It's a big risk they shouldn't take now when there is no trust.
Inefficient how? On long or short term? Or just inefficient?
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi We agree on the first point. But I think the conceit of keeping the Euro will damn the poor citizens of southern Europe to life in debt servitude and exxacerbate the misallocation of capital resources in northern Europe. Cheaper to admit the error.
Tax is just one item - natural productivity varies across regions. Harmonisation threatens the larger goals of peace and fair trade.
Inefficiency on economic value basis. I wouldnt think this is contentious
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 I believe all those things can in fact be harmonised if they just work out a fair system. I don't know how, but it's something we have to work on. I really can't see how it will harm peace/ fair trade if it's executed properly.
Most of the budget has gone to agriculture. But how would you have them spend then? A lot of regions and farmers were in dire need of the money in order to survive. If they'd spent more on R&D they'd be under fire for the social injustice they have caused.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi No doubt they can be harmonised but the costs are prohibitive in many cases.
Harmonisation efforts in practise have often been economically foolhardy - why not exploit comparative advantage? The people can see the waste and corruption.
The goal should be peace and fair trade - if this happens it will be the people dragging politicans toward closer unity and not the other way around. Forcing harmonisation onto people jeopardises the larger goals.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 That's true but isn't it a pity that all the hard work from the past will have to be done all over again in the future? Then you have the risk of getting into an endless cycle.
Besides, why can't they work out a system in which comparative and absolute advantages can still exist, not only among the participating states themselves, but towards the whole world?
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi I see this a different way. The EC needs to slow down before the citizens tear down the previous work. Some of it was good (peace and fair trade!!)
Forcing a governance system onto people that dont want it, imposing a monetary system that forces generations into unemployment is not only immoral - but it is unsustainable.
Comparative advantage does exist - a system that doesnt recognize this will eventually be overthrown by its own population. Why support building such a system
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 Then again they have the same amount of criticism now so it's never going to be good enough for the world. Which doesn't mean they should give up. As long as there is no constructive criticism or viable alternatives, then they should keep going.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi The criticism is so vocal because the people are not benefitting from the governance structure.
There is a huge amount of constructive criticism. The academic literature (from europeans and from other nations) is full of anlysis about the Euro design faults going back for more than a decade. The solutions are well known and understood.
There are viable alternatives to pushing ahead. There are huge risks in forcing governance without consent of the population
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 I think the solutions will bring larger risks than what they are doing now. Let's just see what the future brings
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi I disagree. Most academics also disagree, the current policy is a political decision not an economic one.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 That does cancel all the pro's of the EU in an economic aspect.
I never said I agreed with all the EU's decisions, but the idea of being united and enjoying safety and comfort. Perhaps not all decisions add to this idea, but still a lot of them do.
In the end I believe the EU will set things straight. All governments make mistakes.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi No it doesnt - the benefits can still be had.
You can measure the deadweight loss that has been created. There are definately large benefits from the single market - but they have been offset by the cross subisidisation and harmonisation efforts. The people can see this - the markets have recognised it.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@evilfroi Agree all govts make mistakes, and Im not so much concerned with the fact they have made mistakes - more that they are knowingly making the same mistake again for political rather than economic reasons.
The govt has, and is continuing to create structural imbalances. The costs of doing this are large and unjust. It will probably end as badly as each other time in history an aristocratic group has tried to impose an imbalanced system onto a population that does not support it.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
What fascism looks like people.. farage puts them in the garage
A good man right there
helpmeImbeing 2 months ago
Nigel fighting for the people? He doesn't care about you, he cares about his own money. Convenient for him he gains popularity among the uneducated and the ignorant of our economic society.
He DOES NOT represent a better future. There is no "European mob".
The EU thinks in long term. If your short term greed is harmed by this, too bad.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi = troll
gerryboy3699 2 months ago 2
@gerryboy3699
"...he gains popularity among the uneducated and the ignorant of our so."
You just proved him right with your indeed strong argument.
Scamander 2 months ago
@Scamander what argument have your or he presented? Other than insults.
gerryboy3699 2 months ago
@gerryboy3699 I didn't insult anyone, just sharing my observations and conclusions.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi Yet he represents the opposition. Without him, there'd be no alternative to the european union, something i personally find pretty frightening, because one of the cornerstones of democracy is opposition to the rulership, and The EU likes to view itself as a democratic institution, does it not?
reamyglad 2 months ago
Comment removed
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi you don't no what your talking about. britain pays 50 million per day 75 % of our laws are made there in brussels by these people in this paliment we can't deport foreign criminals we have open boarders to all plus poor countrys joined the eurozone which more are gonna join and the germans the french and so on are gonna have to pay to bail them out. the euro is a disgrace and so are u look to what its done
uatch 2 months ago
@uatch yes but do you know what Britain gets?Do you know what other countries pay?
There are no EU laws that prevent any country from deporting illegal people. If you have already given them British papers, that's your institution's problem. You can always deny immigrants papers or give them temporary papers. Immigration laws are almost the same everywhere in western, civilized countries. Those open boarders were established to ease all trade etc. And they still have their benefits too.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi ehm bullcrap mate, do you know i an eu country hands out eu passports they can come to britain freely, we in britain cannot do anything against eu legislation
Tommonius 2 months ago
@Tommonius Nope, go to wikipedia => wiki/Passports_of_the_European_Union read: EU itself does not issue passports
but! Some EU states also issue non-EU passports to certain people who have a nationality which does not render them citizens of the European Union (e.g., British Overseas Territories Citizens except those with a connection to Gibraltar, British Nationals (Overseas), British Overseas Citizens, British Protected Persons and British Subjects)
That's something UK designed and agreed to.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@uatch However I agree on the fact that we shouldn't have let everyone join the EU. They didn't think there'd be a crisis that could endanger our financial stability and so it's true they bet on the wrong horse there. The idea was that those growing countries could strengthen our stability after our help, but then the crisis came etc etc.
The Euro has only done good. You think the countries in Europe would've done better without the Euro? No, they would've done worse. The EU is not to blame.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi the euro is over idiot
uatch 2 months ago
@uatch wow, just because the currency is experiencing some turbulency doesn't mean it's over...
Imagine if the Euro never existed:
1. No country from the eurozone would ever reach the growth rates they reached
2. The crisis would've hit even HARDER on the independent countries.
But just because they are independent, doesn't mean the neighbouring countries won't feel the effect. So basically the Euro has always been a blessing. Don't believe everything you read/see in the news.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@uatch Mind you btw that the crisis wasn't triggered by the Euro. But by always lending and spending money that wasn't there. Who's to blame? Society, ourselves, greed,...
Capitalism only works without greed. Because now, you can speculate and spread fear and doubt to fill your own pockets. That's another something that triggered the crisis. The ridiculous rating system :s That is in fact a thing that has caused more harm than it's done good. Why don't you focus on that instead of the euro/EU?
evilfroi 2 months ago
@reamyglad Leaving the EU behind is doesn't seem like a good alternative to me. Most countries will go back to being even more poor than now.Every country's growth will be set back even more than it has already been set back by this crisis.
We've always had times of growth since the EU really formed in the 90's.Just because there's a bump in the road now doesn't mean we have to start panicking immediately and give up on something that hasn't really been given a proper chance in times of crisis.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi yes too bad we are giving up all our countries power to the bully boys in Brussels. A group of people who are unelected and can remove heads of countries and replace them with others as they see fit.
I MEAN HOW DARE THE GREEK LEADER TRY AND HAVE A REFERENDUM! seriously how can you not see the problem reforming into a europeon state is not a long term solution
Tommonius 2 months ago
@Tommonius the bully boys in Brussels? Germany and France have the biggest influence in the EU so I wouldn't say all countries lost their power to the EU. Without the EU the smaller countries would still be under influence of more powerful countries like Germany, etc. So there's absolutely no truth in what you said.
The Greek leader had no right to have a referendum AFTER already accepting France & Germany's money and agreeing to their conditions.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@Tommonius If he had had the referendum before he had already accepted the agreement, then there wouldn't have been a problem. Imagine you give someone money under some conditions and he accepts and then says: "yeah, I can't go by your rules because my family doesn't agree so your money is basically gone/not well spent now." That's just not done.
Without the EU, every country would suffer from even more poverty and recession. Especially countries like Spain, Italy, Greece,... etc
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi oh really because I remember the idea that if the greeks leave the eu and take their own currency back, they can devalue their currency to compete.
remember iceland? banks went under and their was no bailouts and yet they took the hit and are now growing by 3%
besides this was originaly a trade agreement, that was what we signed up for, no one of my age has had a vote on this and now they want more intergration, well I say no.
I am not saying isolation, but i want trade only
Tommonius 2 months ago
@Tommonius Iceland is still behind by 2.7% compared to 2007
which means they lost more than 3 years of growth and still haven't completely recovered.
But Iceland and Greece are completely different. Even if Greece would devalue their currency, they would still be in trouble.
read this "articles.businessinsider(DOT)com/2010-04-29/markets/30050671_1_euro-zone-greece-piigs" mind the (DOT) as youtube won't let me post links
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi I understand that, I highlighted them as a sucess though. yes their has been a huge blow to their economy but they are healing, can we say the greeks are healing, they needed a 2nd bail out and are not in sight of sorting this problem out. getting their currency back and devaluing it is a viable solution, they should of never been in the euro anyway and should not be in it now, one currency cannot fit countries as differant as germany and greece
Tommonius 2 months ago
@Tommonius I'm not sure, I guess we'll never know.
But when I look at Greece's records from the past, I don't think they would have made it with their independent currency either. Their economy has always been weak.
Indeed they shouldn't have been in the monetary union as they didn't meet the requirements. But they can't step out now or the Euro will collapse completely and then we're all in serious trouble. When trust is restored they can start looking for alternatives.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi I think you miss the point - With an independent currency they never would have been able to get into the scale of trouble they are now in - costs would be prohibitive at lower level of distress
The issue is not trust - but solvency
Im interested in your reasoning of serious trouble if Euro collapses. Plenty of currencies have failed and/or devalued historically - Apart from the egos of the bureacrats what do you think is different about this?
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 I'm not so sure about that. Greek economy has always been very weak, they were going to have the same issues without the Euro but perhaps not as soon as now. It's true that it wouldn't have cost as much as it cost us now. But not letting them join the monetary union wasn't an option then. It would've caused tension between the participating countries from the start and not make for a good foundation for the union.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi Lots here - will reply on each.
I dont think you can say this - The subsidies allowed much greater spending than would otherwise be the case. You cant sell someone crack and then complain about them being a crack addict...
Of course not joining was an option. See Denmark et al.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 Denmark had the choice to enter in the monetary union but didn't want to. Greece did want to join, so denying them entrance would cause tension.
If their spending won't pay off in the future, then everything you say is true.
But I'm not sure if we can already say that all of their spending will not have an effect in the future as we don't know what the future brings.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi That is a silly argument - they want something therefore they should get it?
I go back to the crack addict example.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 No, they have to make it work though.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi By they do you mean the EU or the people? No doubt the people have to make it work - governance is needed.
The EU as it is currently configured doesnt necesarily have to work out - governments come and go, or are reformed all the time.
Im an economist not an historian - but my view would be that if the EU doesnt reform itself the people will eventually replace it with new governance that creates less imbalances and costs.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 the problem with devaluation is that it can lead to decreasing wealth to neighbouring countries or the country itself. The people now are spoiled with goods they will no longer be able to afford. All kind of investments will have to be cut (education, infrastructure) which will make us even weaker on the market. We have issues competing as it is already. Even with the lower rent rates after devaluating, we will still be too expensive to attract investments. So we will keep plumeting
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi I think you miss the point on devaluation.
Markets have devalued these regions. Forcing a capital cross subsidisation across the euro zone to pretend this isnt true wont change this. The cost of pretending is making everyone poorer.
Trying to pretend that the productivity of Spain/Italy/Germany/France is the same is laughable. Why not allow the people a chance to improve their situation instead of damning a generation of europeans to uncompetitiveness.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 I do get the point of devaluation but I don't believe the increased investmens after devaluation will make a difference on long term.
I think the problem with the countries in the south is, you can't just leave them out because they are weaker. Waiting till they become stronger is also not an option since that day may never come.
The facts are on the table, so they can be worked/dealt with and I believe that's what the EU is doing every day.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi why not trade with them on a fair basis?
Enslaving them to the charity of the northern states is not going to end well.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 how is trading working out for them? Not that good either.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi Trading works out very well for them
Take it away and see what happens
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 It's not working out for them. They barely have any industry whatsoever. Why do you think fascism was so popular there? In times of financial crisis these countries cannot compete, will be poor & that always leads to regimes that should be avoided. That is why they will need our continueing support.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi They have less industry because of their lower productivity and the terms of trade subsidy provided to the northern states. This same scenario has happened repeatedly thoughout history and the economic consequences are well understood.
They need your support as peaceful friends and fair trading partners. Not as central planners and industrial slace masters.
I can tell that you honestly think that you are helping them - but these policies are tremendously harmful.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 If you really think they were competitive before the economic union that might be true, but they weren't. Ok, times have changed. But I don't think a lot has changed on that matter. If we're going to trade with them in stead of cheaper and better trade partners, then I don't really see the difference? Apart from the fact the image and trust in the European union and participating countries will be damaged which will lead to lower ratings.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 With as consequence a higher rate of interest, after which the Euro (or the individual currencies, if we change back to them) will get devaluated to return to our original already uncompetetive rate of interest. It's likely to go like that and it just seems a waste of money and effort to me.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi I worry that the policies you are encouraging will create the very things that you want to prevent.
I have no wish to see the probable social consequences of the economic outcomes of these policies. No matter how well intentioned the people creating the policies are.
You should observe the anger in your fellow citizens comments, voices and polls and think through whether enslaving them is a wise course of action - let alone a moral one.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 Well the voice on the internet alone isn't a trustworthy source. I think a refenderum will lead to a no-vote in some countries like the UK, just because they are more worried about themselves than the rest of the world. But the rest of the participating countries will vote yes I believe. The problem is that one no-vote can destroy everything for the other countries, which I don't find democratic. Forcing people into something they didn't want isn't democratic either, I know.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi I dont think it will destoy everything. Most enlightened people want to see peace and fair trade, it would just mean the unification process would slow down until the population catches up or finds a level of interaction that is most economically or politically stable.
What should we think of a governance system that is not supported by its citizens?
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 Slowing down would be good, but reversing would be a big mistake I think.
Problem is we don't know if it's supported by its citizen, but if they'd put it to the vote I think the majority will still vote in favor of the EU.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi why not do that then rather than enslaving the people in the southern nations.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 I really think that if it were that easy, they would've done that already. We're probably overlooking some important consequences or something.
The EU will intervene at some point and find a solution. I think the only reason why they haven't done so already is because the cries of the people don't reach them. My interpretation of this is that not the majority of people is crying out for change yet. A larger number of people these days maybe, but still not the majority.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi Maybe
Agree they will intervene (already have done so). The question is whether the intevention will result in something more dangerous and unsustainable - which is my view.
I dont have a problem that you want to reserve your view until you see what happens, or even if you end up disagreeing with me. I hope it will work out and that people arent forced to resort to violence again.
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@2plus2make4 But who can foresee the outcome beforehand? If we choose the UK side, things might turn out bad for everyone. But listening to your arguments, which are true also, granting more power to the EU might also endanger the future for everyone.
Either way it will always be a bet, and the seemingly safest bet can still turn into a nightmare if you take into account how quickly the markets can change.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi fuck the markets, fuck the rating agencies, fuck the EUSSR, fuck GOLDMAN SACHS, FUCK THE ROTHSCHILDS , FUCK THEM ALL......!!!! Happy Fucking Christmas you soulless , lifeless scumbags......
biskalero 2 months ago
@biskalero And fuck the future of your children? Of all of our children? The hypocrisy is huge here. You might believe that this EU I support will lead to what I just said.
I believe the mentality you support will lead to this. And I'm quite sure that's not just my opinion.
Oh and still... the conspiracy theories? If those accusations were based on facts from reliable sources, the whole world would've known it to be true. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi GOLDMAN SACHS.....two ELECTED GOVERNMENTS were removed from power GOLDMAN SACHS EMPLOYEES OUT IN THERE PLACE....no conspiracy are just stupid !! MARIO MONTI = GOLDMAN SACHS , MARIO DRAGHI = GOLDMAN SACHS, PAPEDEMUS = GOLDMAN SACHS......shall i go on ? o yeah they are all UN-ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE LIKE VAN ROMPUY, BARRASSO, ASHTON....the list goes on and on and on........research for fuck sake !!!
biskalero 2 months ago
@evilfroi so you are supporting un-elected people to govern you ? we are here already dude...A EU DICTATORSHIP...it is as simple as that.......still don''t get it ???? well....
biskalero 2 months ago
@evilfroi just want elected people to govern my country not unelected bankers and wankers...still don't get it do you ? people fought and died to give us some freedom and we are handing it all away in the name of saving the big banks.....dear god !!!
biskalero 1 month ago
@biskalero you're not giving up your freedom idiot... You won't even notice a difference. Stop whining and let the people who know what's best do their job. There are so many politicians, even in the EU that I doubt it's possible they'll all want to take your freedom away from you because they care so much. They're not dumb, you know... There's no profit from enslaving people as is shown by history. It only leads to instability which is what the EU wants to prevent.
evilfroi 4 weeks ago
@biskalero I agree on your point "fuck the rating agencies" though. They cause more harm than they prevent. Those should be a focus of protest instead of the EU.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi hey dude i am all for Europe but not a EUSSR soviet style political union..and don't bring children into this dude....our children will thank us for our BALLS which you don't have.....so stop with the fuckin bullshit.....we in Ireland voted NO to the Nice Treaty , we voted NO to the Lisbon Treaty...and the second time round both referendums were rigged and the votes were rigged.....so don't talk to me about children and their futures...you know nothing...nada !!!
biskalero 2 months ago
@biskalero You must be experiencing a different EU than myself. Rigged? Please...
You have only seen the facts from one side. Before you can judge you should see the facts given to you by the other side.
"Correspondents say many voters did not understand the treaty despite a high-profile campaign led by Mr Cowen, which had the support of most of the country's main parties." This is the face of fascism. Using people's votes who don't understand the situation.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@biskalero I might know nothing, but you know no more than I.
evilfroi 2 months ago
@evilfroi no i know a little bit more that you by the looks of it , so as i said get your head out of your ass and wake the fuck up....jesus !!
biskalero 1 month ago
@evilfroi Most off the economics profession - these issues and the solutions have been discussed ad nauseum for more than a decade. This is not one of those topics where the austrians and keynsians are in heated debate.
Im not trying to suggest that we know everything - or even much for that matter but this topic is well understood (one of the few).
I dont think it is a matrer of choosing sides (im not from the UK). I would like to see people trade with each other in peace
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@evilfroi Note this is not just a problem for the southern countries - they have spent too much money they didnt have - but the cross subsidisation has resulted in a sub optimal capital allocation in Germany/France/Austria/Netherlands.
It will take a maintenance cycle for these losses to be written off - why would you want to increase this?
2plus2make4 2 months ago
@evilfroi
I agree hindsight is pointless, in fact if the Eu thought of a differant soluton to Greece I might support them, but they are doing the same thing, raising bailout funds
and cutting greek spending, no growth at all. did not work the first time and they needed a second bailout, and if it goes wrong again they will do a 3rd bailout. Thus i want greece to have a referendum on leaving the Eu and maybe just take the pain and default on their debt
Tommonius 2 months ago