Mark Bittman Argues Against Vegetarianism

[Inox55]

I think the bottom-line is trying to consume less (also portion control) and have a balance meal.

[5tonyvvvv]

@Inox55 No Meat, dairy and gluten is why we are all sick and obese!!

[clergame]

We need both meat and vegetables. 

[Brighteyes1ful]

When God's Kingdom takes over ofwhich so many people pray for, and destroy manmade governments that cause us so many problems, and we go back to healthier eating, and not so much greed etc etc.

[BankaiZber43]

i dont like you cause this is offencive to vegans and vegatarians

[gottaluvbirds]

i support vegetarianism because,we are omnivores, eaters of meat and plant, but we are also the smartest known beings, therefore we have the capability to limit ourselves from hunting. its hard for me to believe that as smart as we think we are we are killing our way through earths existence simply because, "meat tastes better". the only reason im not vegetarian is that im 11 years old, i need protein to grow. but god i wish everyone was vegetarian. thumbs this up so everyone can see this!!

[mrbuster1964]

BITTMAN IS A FOOLISH MAN!!!! HE NEEDS TO BE EDUCATED!!!!!

[slytown]

There is no anthropological warming. Isn't that what the fuss is about? Maybe we should be more concerned with the disease and environmental degredation part than the warming effect.

[madisonelectronic]

New York Times. It figures. Busybody faggot. Won't be happy till we all eat chemicals, cause you know the plants' feelings will come next.

[PitcherIPA]

@madisonelectronic Way to raise the level of dialogue... asshole. Do you kiss your mama with those lips? Or does she go around calling people "faggot", too?

[madisonelectronic]

@PitcherIPA Too bad. You must be a faggot?

[RamTerritory]

Does it really matter what people eat? Do we have to tell each other what to eat? Just eat what you want who the fuck cares.

[durianriders]

Mark Bittman: shut the fuck up you vegans! I want to keep my head in the sand!

[guitarhero666759]

@durianriders go ahead, but you'll only be cheating yourself.

[jeff4bucks]

@durianriders doesn't sound like he was anti-vegan to me...

[TheFlutevisions]

What a snake!!!!

[ZennLa13]

Obviously veganism is the way to go.

[KrfNYC2]

@crazyjoe259 I don't think that biological make-up decides what is moral. Maybe our teeth are made for eating meat...but that doesn't mean that it is the right way. And also, I don't know if vegentarianism is healthy or unhealthy, but even if it is unhealthy...I still don't think that this means we must eat meat.

[xsailor321]

barbarian, interesting, so im guessing your a vegan?

[ReX342]

It sounds like he's advocating veganism. However, also arguing against advocating vegetarianism (because he's not one and it would be hypocritical for him to do so).

[xsailor321]

GO MEAT !!!! FUCK YESSSS, this is AMERICA , EAT THOSE DAMN COWS LOL

[musicvoho]

@xsailor321

pathetic!

[rivlukcoltd]

@xsailor321 ameican barbarian. Exactly fulfilling the stereotypes on what people think of you.

[devourerofbabies]

So even though we need to drastically decrease our meat consumption, eating a little meat is somehow better than none at all? lol wut?

[54321Adela]

Mark Bittner is quite smart for criticising vegetarianism from the point of veganism. This name doesn´t make the video or him any justice.

[xsarahsantosx]

This is heavily edited =/

[cybeh2000]

Yes, Bittman is a hypocrite. Talk at length about the problems and even pointed out the clearly simply and effective solution - Being Vegan, then he goes... "I can't really advocate that.... I'd have been hypocritical", blah blah blah! Be a Big-Man, not Bit-Man, Bitt-man! Walk the talk.

[mmmmmarcus]

yeah, corn in general is a very shitty crop. Worthless unless you nixtimalize it. So many people died because they thought they could survive on fresh corn...

[mmmmmarcus]

all organic life is rich in carbon.  You're right about most of our foods being corn-based.

[mmmmmarcus]

However, it's good that you guys nix corn. Monocropping is a very damaging form of agriculture. Both economically, and ecologically.

[doombuggy123]

I'm not sure I understand his position against vegetarianism, is it that it isn't going far *enough* in the way veganism is? I don't really see a clear, definitive point being made, it just sounds like he's trying to avoid coming off as a hypocrite.

[tantoedge]

Someone was fucking with the audio on this bit. He definitely said 'less' between eat a few of them.

[doombuggy123]

@tantoedge Yeah, if you go to the link in the in the information box and listen to the full interview he says, "a few less".

[Weremonkey1]

We eat far too much meat and vegetables are not a large enough part of our diet. Fresh food, that still resembles its source, is nearly gone from the average American diet. Too many people live entirely on fried or processed meat, white bread, and sugar.

[tombocombo5]

Whether we want to do it or not, the time is near where we will be forced to eat less meat (maybe less food altogether). With the inevitability of peak oil and vastly inflated oil prices, all food could double or triple in price. Meat being the most energy intensive of foods to produce will ultimately become the most expensive. This could cause a collapse in the factory farmed meat market. I think we're on the cusp of a food (and civil) revolution. Learn to grow your own food now!

[vijaymd44]

it's fair to say .. you can NOT kill the earth

[bobbygnosis]

@vijaymd44 I concur. Earth wil outlive humans by a few billion years. We're a semi-violent, literate, brightly colored hiccup. I do, however, hope that we don't fuck up the environment so that humans go extinct. I have a couple friends that I'd like to see have good lives.

Peace.

[qwertypoiu4321]

Murdering animals violates the Non-Aggression Principle.

[Sambojumbo]

If everyone ate like we in the West do we would need 16 planets. If poor countries are to raise their living standards to those in the West then we must stop consuming so much meat as farming animals is a wasteful use of land resources. Animal farming is a very big contributor to the build up of greenhouse gases as well as the destruction of the rainforests. Animals feel fear and pain as we do. Be veg or reduce meat consumption out of concern for yourself, animals, humanity and the planet.

[JTsmiley14]

"I think being a vegan is a very ... consistent position to take."

I would label this video "Mark Bittman advocates veganism" even though he says he doesn't advocate it, he does. He just advocates it and says he's a hypocrite.

[Smithpolly]

I don't see why it would be hypocritical of him to advocate veganism.

[infokriegerBerlin]

i dont agree with the meat industry !

but no vegetarian is ever talking about the plants who are living too!! arent they?!

the only difference is they cant look you in the eyes and make you feel guilty !

by the way man made global warming is a hoax...the last 10 years its gotten colder... !

[honeybear64]

Back when meat was considered to be necessary for health, no one would ever think to come up with silly arguments such as that plants are as sentient, susceptible to pain, etc., as animals. But now that the only remaining reasons for eating animals are habit, convenience, and taste preference, the cognitive dissonance arising from the unacknowledged realization that those are very poor justifications for killing animals leads people to reach for desperate arguments for continuing the practice.

[buddhasknowbest]

Vegetarianism is overrated. Do you know how many insects and microscopic life forms are killed by pesticides in order to keep our produce available? More suffering, harm, and death occurs from these pesticides. When you kill a chicken, that is 1 animal. To get a carrot or onion, thousands of insects and organisms are killed during the process. The pesticides cause brain cancer, leukemia, birth defects, increases your chance of developing Parkinson's disease by 70%... there is so much harm.

[VegetarianFuture]

In order to raise farm animals, we need to grow a heck of a lot of grain. Some animals eat ten times more grain than the average human eats. Therefore, if what you say is correct, it's still more moral to stick to a vegetarian diet because it results in fewer plants being grown and harvested.

[RareHonesty]

@VegetarianFuture

Some are under the assumption that gain is produced to feed livestock which is not the case it is grown regardless of whether or not the meat industry existed, it just happens to fit nicely into the present economic predicament we are in. The companies that buy the grain from the farmers have formed a monopoly and have driven the prices down to an unbearable level so the farmers over produce. The government even has to steps in to fill in the gaps most times.

[smkymcnugget420]

@RareHonesty thats bullshit. do u really believe that? you realize that by saying grain that doesn't mean wheat or oats or w/e it means corn...just corn. and that we just so happen to grow all this corn for no reason then come up with convenient ways to use it? lol are you kidding me? Corn is GM and patented by Agribusiness who lobby gov't to use so much of it. check out the documentary called: "king corn"...of all the Carbon in your body (as a carbon BASED life form) at least 60% is from corn.

[mmmmmarcus]

@smkymcnugget420 "60% of the carbon in your body is from corn" Its morons like you that hamper the marijuana legalization movement. quit fucking lying, stop listening to alex jones, and open a goddamn book. Fuck. You make me wanna quit smoking weed.

[smkymcnugget420]

@mmmmmarcus did you look up anything about my comment or did ur simple little brain just yell "that dont sound right"... Copy and paste this phrase into Google and click the first link that comes up you fucking disrespectful piece of shit: "percentage of American diet that is corn" I dare you to speak like that to me to my face you coward.

[mmmmmarcus]

@smkymcnugget420 that's right, get angry. Break shit. LOL

[mouthwasher]

@mmmmmarcus Dude I was on your side until I researched it, and you're wrong. Your comeback comment was sweet though.

[mmmmmarcus]

@mouthwasher I eat very little corn. In fact 90 percent of my diet is wild ocean fish caught myself, and feral veggies like sow-thistle, purslane, and oranges from my own tree. I'd say in reality, 90 percent of the carbon in our bodies is free carbon absorbed from the environment. A small amount of farm-grown vegetables make up the rest. I consume no milk or beef, or CORN. (I'm allergic to grasses)

[mouthwasher]

@mmmmmarcus ok what I read pertained to the average American who doesn't eat fish morning-thru-night whose carbon content comes mainly from things that have corn syrup in them, not exactly corn per se.

One reporter had one of his hairs tested and they found that 67% of the carbon in his hair was corn-based.

[mmmmmarcus]

@mouthwasher you have it backwards. Corn is carbon-based. There's no such thing as "corn-based-carbon"...

[mouthwasher]

@mmmmmarcus yeah, you're right, but I meant "carbon we get from eating corn". Knowing this is important because today's corn, which is mostly water, doesn't contain very much carbon. Our body needs a lot of carbon, so since we're getting 67% of it from something that isn't a rich source, it shows how much corn products we eat.

[RareHonesty]

@VegetarianFuture

Even with the meat industry there is still a surplus of grain that goes to waste every year because that is what the market not the public demands. It has been this way ever since the depression when the government paid farmers to burn their crops in order to get rid of the extra so the prices would rise.

[kimberlily1983]

@buddhasknowbest So you're saying you're against vegetarianism/veganism because you're against pesticides? I'm vegan and am also against the use of pesticides and herbicides, as well as the GM movement. I'm all for small farmers producing good vegan food without poison sprayed on it, and for obtaining most of our food locally. :)

[illcommentu]

@buddhasknowbest the point of being a vegetarian is not to avoid killing at all costs, it is to not do any kind of unnecessary killing for pleasure.

[honeybear64]

@buddhasknowbest I can see what you're getting at. At the same time, by the time that chicken has made it to slaughter, how many animals have been killed in the process of obtaining its diet?

Also, if in the process of calculating net harm the number of animals killed is taken into consideration, wouldn't pastured beef be better than chicken? To get the amount of meat of one cow, you'd probably have to kill around 120 chickens or so.

[bill40449]

Great interview. However, THE TITLE: Mark Bittman Argues Against Vegetarianism---horribly misleading. This clip is about our food system and factory farming.

[donnyab]

this guy seems to be eminently sensible...is he arguing against vegetarianism, I don't think so, also is it my imagination or is the video "doctored" at 4:44, his mouth seems to go funny at that point

[TimTrimT]

Mark Bittman is unenlightened and his lines of reasoning are rather incomplete.

[reforest4fertility]

He's saying, from his learning -- and he is far more widely exposed to the spectrum of food info than most all the rest of us -- is that if we want to do the best for the health of the Earth as for ourselves then veganism is the way, tho it's harder to maintain than the effort he personally is ready to make. It sounds like he's in a weaning process off his past indulgence. This is what he says at the end. Sounds like some of the commenters didn't make it that far :-).

[kimberlily1983]

@reforest4fertility You're right, he says veganism is the best thing we can do for our bodies and the planet (it's also best for the animals!). The only reason he doesn't advocate it is because he isn't one.

Maybe someday he'll make the switch. Until then, at least he's doing far less harm than the vast majority of people.

[hemiller65]

No cows are raised in factories. Only veal calves are raised thier short life in crates. All cows are raised on ranches. Their calves are raised on the same ranch and sold at 8 months to feedlots where they are harvested at 18 months. Most of them are going to be prime steaks. Cows at the end of their life my be shipped off directly to the killers after living their entire life on a many acre ranch. They will be the hamburger. Hardly factory.

[TimTrimT]

@hemiller65: Wow, You're a tad bit delusional. Google "CAFO". Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation.

Basically unless the meat SAYS it ISN"T factory farmed in the USA, then it IS.

And thanks to laws prohibiting ranchers and farmers from killing their own animals humanely, even well treated animals suffer immensely when sent to a high volume industrial slaughterhouse for their last weeks of life.

And yeah, cows are outdoors on a CAFO, but packed thousands to an acre on mountains of feces.

[hemiller65]

Your talking about feedlots which applies to beef cows being raised for meat or dairy cows being raised for milk production. My point is still valid. Steers and hiefers do not spend their entire life at a feedlot rather most come from large acre ranches. The majority of beef comes from ranches with 100 head or less wich should tell u that they are raised small scale. Breeding cows are raised almost entirely on these ranches. In america I have not heard of such laws prohibiting animal euthanasia.

[ameroux]

I'd like to see a source for this information. It is contrary to everything I've heard or read about the food supply in the U.S.

[hemiller65]

I am the source. I own and operate a 300 acre ranch with 130 mamma cows. Feed costs would be way too high to justify raising a cow/calf operation in a feedlot. What makes sense to u; buying corn and hay which can be very expensive when you factor in a lactating cow should get 30 to 40 lbs/day or feeding that same pair natural or raised grasses and legumes like alfalfa? Not to mention the million acres of public lands that ranchers and feds manage for grazing. pigs and chickens may be different.

[ameroux]

Thanks for the info. Do you think that your operation is the exception rather than the rule? Just curious.

[hemiller65]

It is the norm. I am currently calving the cows out now. People who have not seen a working cattle ranch and get their only info from anti meat venues may not understand the whole picture, and as you could imagine that is frustrating for cattle ranchers. Now, like I have said the calves do get sold in the late fall and will most likely go to a feedlot. Feedlots are cleaning up their acts though due to concerns about factory farming and that is a good thing.

[ameroux]

I'm definitely not anti-meat, but I am concerned about the conditions these animals are raised in. I'm concerned that if they are raised in an unhealthy environment they will not be fit to eat, not to mention the suffering they would go through. I hate the idea of antibiotics and growth hormones in my food. I also hate the thought of any creature living out its entire life in a stall somewhere. Thanks again for your input - I appreciate it.

[GabBowman]

Yes. The word less has been deleted for sure.

[honeybear64]

Is it just me, or did anyone else notice that at 4:42 the audio is elided, and makes Bittman sound like he's saying "we can be nicer to them, but first we have to eat a few . . . of them" - which doesn't even make sense, when if you look at his mouth, it seems the deleted word is "less," as in, "we have to eat a few LESS of them," which not only would make a lot more sense, but would be keeping with the logic of his point. I guess his actual statement didn't fit with the poster's agenda!

[honeybear64]

. . . and I agree witth the comment that the title is HIGHLY misleading. He argues "against" (ovo-lacto-)vegetarianism because people mistakenly think that eggs and dairy are healthier and less cruel than meat, and that if you REALLY want to make a difference you should be vegan! Dairy cows are treated as bad as, if not worse than, beef cattle, and laying hens are treated as bad as, if not worse than, broiler chickens. And the hormones, cholesterol, and sat. fat are in those products as well.

[sonnet87]

@honeybear64 Yeah the title was very misleading. I did enjoy hearing his argument even though there are other reasons to become vegetarian/vegan than the cruelty to animals issue. Still it's nice to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about.

[honeybear64]

Actually, I need to amend the last sentence of my comment, since, while hormones ARE administered to cows, the law does NOT allow them to be administered to chickens. So if a product says it contains "hormone-free" chicken or eggs, that's nothing special, since NO chicken or eggs contain them in the first place. It's just a marketing ploy.

Dairy, on the other hand, is a different matter.

[TheMslara26]

@honeybear64 hmm very interesting. wonder what's up with that?

[Rubingah]

@honeybear64 Good catch! I think you're absolutely right with the lip-reading. The title of this video seems a bit misleading, too - Bittman's primary argument is not AGAINST vegetarianism, but rather FOR reduced meat consumption. As Graham Hill puts it in his TED talk, everybody eats 70% less meat, it's equivalent environmentally to 70% of the population being vegetarian.

[justincowley]

@honeybear64 totally would not have noticed that lol

[nerdyharry]

@honeybear64 totally

[mightyaontheverge]

@honeybear64 yup you are right! Someone edited his words, its sooo obvious!

[andreaorell]

@honeybear64 dammit, you're right!

[ReX342]

@honeybear64 Currently, we're eating a lot of them. So in contrast with that, it'd be true to say we should (only) eat a few.

[TDP788]

the main problem is not to eat or not to eat meat, but the overconsumption factor and the way the animals are raised and fed. its not healthy to eat too much meat, or to eat diseased/tortured/unhealthy cows. we need to fight to give the animals a more natural environment, hunt wild deer and fish to eat

[datzfast]

actually bittman should only be concerned about healthy eating to increase health, enjoyment, longevity,and price, thats where the real money is at. at least it worked for other food critics

[afareni]

You know how old I was when I experimented with vegetarianism?

12.

That same night I said 'fuck it' and had me some chili cheese dogs, because pig anus and ground up moo moos are so fucking delicious.

[pancakepuddle]

speaking from personal experience, my inductive reasoning has led me to conclude that vegetarianism, while a weak case for bettering one's self and the world around them, is an excellent gateway drug to embracing a (healthy) vegan lifestyle (some pop-tarts are vegan). I've made the transition quite nicely. I experimented with a vegetarian diet for about 4 years on/off and it inspired me to not only further examine what I was eating, but all facets in my life. vegan = common sense, for me...

[EnAttendantG0D0T]

His point is consist only with the arguments for vegetarianism on the grounds of it being better for the enviroment. I haven't found many people defending their beliefs with that as their main premise. Most of the time it is a moral position. Me specifically comes down to my existential idea that being on top the natural order, but not above it, have an awareness to suffering and yet we allow it to happen. Killing, here it seems to be a logical inconsistency.

[KrfNYC2]

@EnAttendantG0D0T I think that vegetarianism is the way to live. I find it absurd that we even argue this matter. To me it is the obvious path. But, who knows...maybe I'm msissing something.

[StevenBee2]

@KrfNYC2 Well said. There simply are no valid reasons for us as a global population to be eating meat as we do, and you can fill a small library with the books devoted to discussing reasons for a vegetarian society. This isn't really a debatable issue.

[KrfNYC2]

@StevenBee2 I agree. I think that people try to convince themselves that eating and killing animals against their will is justified so that they may enjoy meat without a guilty conscience. I think it was Da Vinci who said something along the lines of "In the future, the consumption of flesh will be looked at as the greatest crime of our time." (This is an EXTREMLEY loose paraphrasing). I eat meat, but I'm trying to stop. Peace.

[StevenBee2]

@KrfNYC2 Exactly. "Man has infinite capacity to rationalize his rapacity" :) always loved that quote. Another big factor is just the normalcy of it. It's so popular in our culture that the idea of not eating it seems alien to many people, and many think they couldn't do it. I find that strange, I've been vegetarian for 20 years and I don't even think about it anymore... meat just doesn't feel like food to me so I simply have no interest in it.

[KrfNYC2]

@StevenBee2 Word. What do you eat instead? Did you find something to fill the void of meat?

[StevenBee2]

@KrfNYC2 nah - there is no void to be filled. If I was vegan (which I was for a few years) then you have to take some special steps, primarily to ensure sufficient B-12 in your diet, but really, there is nothing special in meat that are not in plants. I eat the same things, pasta, pizza, stews, sammiches, cereal, etc etc etc... just with no meat in 'em

[KrfNYC2]

@StevenBee2 A sandwhich with no meat...you are a special breed of human.

[StevenBee2]

@KrfNYC2 Well, in honesty the only sammiches I really make are grilled cheese ones, but there are some cafe's & restaurants that have excellent vegetarian sammiches. Veggie panini's make a good meal too.

[datzfast]

before Americans inhabited the grasslands the historic buffalo heard numbered 75 million. these creatures farted methane at the same rate as the cows do today. so the issue isn't cow farts. its a political issue.

[realitas]

This might amaze you, but the world extends beyond the US. There are 185 million cattle in India and 26 million in Australia. These populations don't begin to compare to the natural populations of methane-producing animals in these regions

[datzfast]

you too closed minded to see the point.

a grassland is a grassland it eatheir gets eaten or a fire consumes it . so good luck

thinking you as a human have anything meaningful to contribute to anything. in other words, big deal.

[datzfast]

and just so you dont think i am a fool. there are more trees in the Us today than before the land was quote tammed. i know you will want to use slash and burn

as an argument for the destruction of my species. good luck there too

[afareni]

Thumbs up. I'd rather have a grassland be eaten than wasted.

:D

[datzfast]

yes but i am not telling the world how to eat

[topdrummer724]

just because he doesn't advocate vegetarianism doesn't mean he is arguing against it. whoever titled this video is completely missing the point.

[xillonz]

I don't see why he can't advocate veganism on account of being hypocritical, it doesn't matter what he does, it's not going to change whether being vegan is good or not. It's like saying Hitler would be in the wrong if he started advocating race equality. Who cares what the actions are of the advocator, race equality is good, advocate it!

[JakeXVX]

Mark Bittman is such an intelligent man. I would''t say he is arguing against vegetarianism though. And to all the people hating on him for eating meat you obviously missed what he was saying.

and just for the record im vegan so don't flame me saying im defending factory farming

[3finker]

Vegetarians and Vegans shouldnt hate Mark for eating meat, he just doesnt understand the measure of suffering people cause just to provide unnecessary meat.

Mark could do no better than learn from the writings of the master of literature Leo Tolstoy who certainly condemned the eating meat of meat by a genuinely ethically minded person.

When humans cause violence to animals we are sure reap it ourselves, we dont deserve anything less, as Pythagoras said.

Do no harm (from Jainism)

[Imyourslut]

This is fucking sad, he obviously knows he should stop eating meat, but he's too much of a selfish bastard or pussy to do so...

There really is no debate, yet meat lovers defend their point with their claws ready. They're afraid because the comanies profiting on the killing of animals made them afraid.

[cpmkw]

I could not agree more! Great posting.

[arey051012]

Mark Bittman isn't arguing against vegetarianism. He's just saying it's "not much better" than omnivorism. Whether or not this is true, we can set aside. But the fact is that Bittman himself isn't strong-willed enough to act in accordance with his convictions--in other words, becoming a vegan. He is a "vegan until 6."

I admire the work Bittman does, but if everyone was a "vegan until 6," and then indulged on steak and ribs for dinner, we'd still be eating way too much meat.

[qweekybird]

Bittman can only have had his head in the clouds for the past 17 years, implying these stats on "livestock" production are something new and just came to his attention in some recent NY Times article. Jeremy Rifkin gave us these stats in "Beyond Beef", published in 1992, and countless books and documentaries have substantiated and updated the figures since.

[godot13]

A cow used for milk can life past 15 years. If it is raised for meat it is slaughtered at 12 to 20 months of age. That is a huge difference. If you chose products from free range animals as often as possible I would seriously disagree about there being no difference for the animal between animals raised for meat rather than milk and eggs.