Kenneth Clark's Civilisation

[michatube23]

while i'm really not a fan of political correctness, this guy sort of made me feel uneasy. im surprised at myself.

[arsviatticae]

By the new Barbarians he meant the Soviets I guess. Greetings from Russia:-)

Paul.

[halothewynd1]

It should perhaps be remembered that the Roman world was largely built on slavery - the northern "barbarian" tribal nations were not!

[DrunkenPoetic]

To a historian civilization is the domestication of plants.

Agriculture led to people building cities, developing written languages etc.

This happened outside of Europe.

Clarke is a stuck-up old Tory.

It's because of people like him we have these afrocentric fucking morons going on and on and on and on.

[aardvark0123]

Nothing is so haughty and assuming as ignorance where self-conceit sets up to be infallable.

The loudness of any argument is inversely related to the strength of its foundation.

[TheGoodoldme]

isation my arse! Brought nothing but misery to everyone!

[thebeeskl]

@raynard88666 Wow, what a cunt.

[raynard88666]

@thebeeskl oh no! im a cunt! thats why white mans world is falling down around us. becuase of dumb ass nigger lovers like you. keep it up nigger lover. white mans world is coming to an end. see how kind the nigger world is that awaits you.

[Gonzoidz]

@thebeeskl

What you say to the blacks who try and steal Western Civilisation with an invented past? They are all over youtube with their lies. Are they "cunts?" I say they are.

Lord Clarke was a great man. I watch from Malta on cable, great great man of learning.

[TheGoodoldme]

@raynard88666 pardon my curiosity but what exactly is civilisation and what exactly has it brought man? Oh wait! War all over the world and environmental pollution ....what is so civilised about killing for oil? what is so civilised about killings for own greed? what is civilised about environmental pollution (global warming)..civilisation is now busy polluting other planets too!! what exactly do u mean by whiteman does alot for it? what exactly?

[Markinthewoods]

@TheGoodoldme If you want to know what civilisation is, go and live in Africa for a long time, and you will see it by its absence. It is a bit like criticising modern medicine when you are well. Wait until you get cancer, then see how you feel about modern medicine.

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods

wait till an earthquake or a tsunami wipes an entire state or country ....oh wait....something similar happened in Australia! All because of civilisation.....globalwarming­/pollution.....

[Markinthewoods]

@TheGoodoldme

What about the Sahara Desert? Created by Africans long ago, living in an uncivilised past. Nothing to do with Western Civilisation, pollution, or global warming.

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods,

check your facts hun before you make a fool of yourself: The Sahara Desert was NOT created by Africans! Here is what scientist believe happened: "Iit turns out that the area used to be lush with green forests and lakes. But, a massive climate change, probably due to the green house effect that the dinosaurs caused with their aerosol experiments in the early pre-historic times, caused the whole place to dry up.

[Markinthewoods]

@TheGoodoldme

There are many models to explain the creation of the Sahara. What you refer to is simply one model. If you travel to parts of Africa, you will see many instances of soil erosion due to over-grazing, leading to desertification (southern Africa for one) and areas where the lack of Western medicine means people die at an alarming rate, and are operated on without anaesthetic. Furthermore, natural events are explained by witchcraft. I suspect you have never even seen such places.

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods,

Right! But why are do they overgraze? The was no such thing way back! Because the nomads have no place else to go, with skycrapers shooting allover, forests are destroyed so civilisation can build houses etc.....and as far as witchcraft is concerned: some of us beilive in Jesus, others in Mohammed, others in Jah and others in witchcraft! Vhristians are busy explaining to everyone that the end is nigh, thus the disasters occuring across the globe. Oh and the African has herbs,

[Markinthewoods]

@TheGoodoldme

The population of Africa has exploded due to Western medicine, and so their land availability is now scarce. African reproduction has always been very high, but high mortality rates meant that populations were stable. Now, many more survive, but they continue to have many children, causing food and land shortages. The type of witchcraft practised in Africa is not benign, by the way, it involves using body parts (so-called muti murders) and killing people thought to be witches.

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods

Exactly, western medicine si causing overpopulation! The type of modern witchcraft done by modern and civilised men is known as.....i beg your pardon........war on terror! demonising a whole religion making everyone focus much hate on some innocent ppl. As for wealth, define it!

[Markinthewoods]

@TheGoodoldme

Inter-tribal warfare in Africa causes tens of thousands of deaths each year, most of which is not reported in Western media. As for medicine, do you suggest medicine be withheld from Africa, and if so, on what basis? If they outbreed their environment, that is their problem, surely? I do not hold that Africans are poor, but they do sufer from starvation, disease, overpopulation, so perhaps are by some measures. They are not static "noble savages", they want things just as you do.

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods

"international warfare!" in say Afghanistan, Irak....." causes tens of thousands of deaths each year, most of which is not reported in Western media." What's your point? As for medication: the damage by civilisation is already done, thus we cannot stop medicating those ppl! Africans have been having lots of children since forever and their breeding never brought the African-Eco-System off-balance till civilisation arrived. The African only took from mother earth what he ...

[Markinthewoods]

@TheGoodoldme

Do you mean that disease was non-existent before contact with the West? Do you think it is right to say, "You are Black, therefore you should not have medicine?" or "You are Black, therefore in times of drought you should starve?" I grew up in Africa, I am aware of the social damage done by the West. However, it is a double-sided coin, in that there were plenty of advantages too. Africans themselves will be the first to tell you this, they want to learn to read and write.

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods, Of course ther were diseases in Africa but there was ni such thing as STD's, again, read Jomo Kenyatta's book. Not with one line did i say one should be denied medication based on skin colour.....damage is done, can't walk out now like Bush tried in Iraq claiming "Mission Accomplished".......it is there so one might as well try and COPE with it! What otherwise is there? AM not sure of ANY advantages, I know many who wish things were back to "normal". Civilisation took lands

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods,

away, and left natives live in slums! Question: since the key to survival in civilisation is literacy, who in their right minds wouldn't want it? It is nonvoluntary........ it is a MUST! Read Henry D. Thoreau's Walden, you might get a glimpse of where am coming from.......

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods

needed to survive, nothing more, nothing less-->now look what is happening/ has happened! And just just Africa but in everyplace civilisation was "imported." As for the term savage: whta is the difference between killing inoccent ppl with modern weapons and so so modern? Isn't the outcome the same? Or is a mordern weapon civilised thus less brutal and savage?

[Markinthewoods]

@TheGoodoldme

What you are saying then is there is no difference between killing people with modern or pre-modern weapons. Therefore, you are acknowledging that killing took place in societies before their contact with the West. I would actually hazard a guess that proportionally fewer people die today than died in pre-colonial Africa from fighting, due to intervention of, for instance, the UN. Negroid Africans committed genocide against the aboriginal inhabitants in the south, for example.

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods, Indeed there was inter-tribal killings where neighbouring tribes like Kikuyus and Masaais attacked eath other, stole their women and cattle! But this happened once in a blue moon. They lived peacefully next to each other and inter-married so why they attacked each other once in a while? I dunno know! (Read Jomo Kenyatta's book: Facin Mt. Kenya). And yes, there is no difference between killing and killing, but can't term one save and the other noble...surely?!

[TheGoodoldme]

*savage*

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods, and nope! you are wrong......millions die today than then due to starvation, lack of medication of course tcivilised weapons--> with these you can extinguish a whole bunch with just one hit! Some civilised politicians have made it their job to cause instability in many countries (read Jeremy Cahill's Black Water) inorder to accure minerals for a nickel! Again cilisation rears it's ugly behind.....

[Markinthewoods]

@TheGoodoldme

You are conflating many different things, "civilised" with opportunism, for one. As a proportion of the population of these lands, many fewer die now than then. If you go through economic figures for colonial Africa, you will find that productivity was much higher. Africa is now poorer than it was sixty years ago. It is no good sitting in a comfortable chair in the rich West speculating about Africa, go there, live there for forty years, then let me have your opinion.

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods,

You started the whole thing about killings, war, starvation, medicine, witchcraft, Sahara Desert etc, etc, etc.....I just pointed out each point you argued ( tried) with in the first place...... there is nothing about Africa you can teach me....you have to believe me......! Thanx for the debatte! Had loads of fun... ;-))

[Markinthewoods]

@TheGoodoldme

Must be nice to think you can't be taught anything about Africa (or anything else for that matter)! As Einstein said, “Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.” It's hard to debate with somebody who has certain idee fixes, rather like introducing rational discourse into a religious argument. In any event, good luck. Africa will be blaming others for its misfortunes until kingdom come. Now China's turn.

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods,

Understable that Africa blames others.....in most or all cases, the blame is justified! Like I said, civilised politicians have made it their job to cause instability in many countries so that the so-called civilised can live in wealth!

[TheGoodoldme]

@Markinthewoods

meant to write.......not so modern? (weapons)

[TheGoodoldme]

.....that work as naesthetics! The problem about disease caused deaths is due to the fact that the people have become so poor, thanx to civilisation and cannot afford medication! Poor ppl were made to believe their herbs are worth null!

[Markinthewoods]

@TheGoodoldme

There is no evidence that Africa is any poorer now in pre-colonial times. There was no differentiation of labour then, so apart from witchdoctors/herbalists (also known as Iqhira or Sangoma in Nguni languages) everybody did the same thing, which was build huts, keep cattle, and fight with other tribes when necessary. Women bore children and ground millet, and fetched water from the river. There was no possibility of accumulating wealth, because there was no money, only barter.

[selfvirt]

@TheGoodoldme Clark makes an attempt at answering that very question - he admits from the start that he doesn't know what civilistation is, but it is recognisable through its surviving art. That rule applies to societies we know next to nothing about, whether they be separated from us by history or geography. Art is the only way we can recognise each other as human beings. As for war, well, I suppose that is the only other way we can recognise each other as human beings...

[DrunkenPoetic]

Modern cilvilization has made everyone very wealthy. Without modern production about six billion people would starve to death.

There are more people now, they live longer, they are healthier, their kids are more likely to survive infancy, they are more likely to be literate, and have better access to education.

This is the culmination of many civilizations from Asia to North Africa to Europe etc.

Pop-culture tells us that the past was better, but that ain't really true.

[masterfeatherpen]

His view of the barbarians...is...so...wrong..­.

But what a great series. My older professors still say "the dark ages" like Gibbon... and I wince every time.

That said, I love this guy.

[SinoIrishAussie]

Enjoyable documentary, even if I disagree with Kenneth Clark's point of view.

[krashellmet]

fuck me gently with a chainsaw. where has this series been all my life! bravo!!!

[SirJamestheIII]

this is one of the greatest. my favorite series is james burke's connections

[LepantoElReal]

Superlative, magisterial and still unsurpassed.

No documentary series has come close to the profundity, breadth and beauty of these wonderful programmes.

[Xenostrobe]

"...for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes." Laplace...

I think the closes we'll get to assessing the merits of Civilization is discussed on youtube by Bill Moyers and Daniel Goleman - LCA.

[frye60]

Whats the name of that building at the beginning when the words civilisation come up.

[Randroide]

I think it is "Les Invalides", in Paris.

[oxford14]

I love this. Thank you so much for posting.

[kosimpson]

Civilisation could never be created today. In "The Skin of our Teeth" Clark says designs in celtic illuminated manuscripts are far more elaborate than those in Islamic art. Could you imagine the BBC allowing that kind of statement today? Moreover Clark casts the Christian church as a civilizing influence. I love this series because one could never hear such honest statements in our modern Politically Correct world.

[mawooshen]

To be honest, 1969 had its own "political correctness" that was just different to the one prevalent in the UK now.

ie you could say some things then that you would get castigated for now, and vice versa.

Some or many elements of the current political correctness are disingenous, hypocritical and infuriating, but on the whole I reckon there's considerably more broadcasting freedom (in terms of opinion and ideas) now than in 1969.

[spoonspoiler]

There's definitely more freedom but what about quality of content?

[logica10]

I completely agree. Some political correctness in the air which prevents some occidental philosophy to be freely spread. This is a sort of self-censorship, and IMHO is quite a negative issue. I'm not saying that Occident is perfect, but at least for me, since the Renaissance was a synonym of progress, science and freedom. With quite big errors, wars, genocides, hungers, and so on, I'd lilke to concede to our civilisation the place it deserves. A light in the darkness. All the best for all you.

[Widdip]

Hahaha you Eurocentric idiot.

[FrankinHolland]

The culmination being the United States. Also flawed but having a real Constitution and Bill of Right is clearly far preferable than what the EU proposes. Two UKbloggers are about to get long jail time for posting nasty opinions about jews and blacks on a blog site in the US naively thinking they were protected under US laws.

[A0n79fRtW]

@kosimpson

You are so correct. It is refreshing to watch a historical documentary without the intellectual dishonesty which is political correctness.

[jjpcondor]

@kosimpson The Political corectness is out-most hypocrisy. 

[CriticalEnquirer]

@jjpcondor I think you mean "utmost".

[jjpcondor]

@CriticalEnquirer yes, thank you for your correction

[baiNEKO]

i want to watch the rest! where's part 2 ?

:0

[chrish12345]

lol i luv that dog at 1.53, was it a collie?

[oxford14]

You don't recognize the buildings in the background? It's the obvious clue to the dog's identity: it's Ubu! Sit, Ubu, sit.

[liveingalway]

What music is this? Is it by Bach?

[cagliost]

Choral No. 3 in A minor by César Franck

[liveingalway]

Thank you very much!

[VDGG94ki]

It is an amazing work!

[mawooshen]

You don't happen to know where I can find a list of all the music used in the series?

There are some wonderful pieces in it but I am a musical ignoramus.

[EccentricRichard]

The second bit of organ music in this video is Combat de la Mort et la Vie (The Struggle Between Death and Life) by Olivier Messiaen.

[chrish12345]

i wonder if he ever did find out what civilization is in words..

[52dalibor]

there is so much foolishness on this page. please try to read and consider charles freeman's book THE CLOSING OF THE WESTERN MIND: THE RISE OF FAITH AND THE FALL OF REASON.

[myroseaccount]

People adopted Christianity because Constantine made it the official state religion of the Roman Empire. This decades before the final collapse. The point is that the dark ages were DARK because of Christian churches and institutions. It was only once the grip of the church on learning was loosened in the 15th century that Copernicus, Galileo, Bacon etc could thrive! There particular academic and intellectual interests are irrelevant.

[lengelwolf]

The whole idea of the 'Dark Ages' is a Whig-era prejudice--heavily influenced (ironically, considering secularists have adopted it) by protestant evangelicalism. Get out of the nineteenth century, dude.

[neothomist1275]

The Hellenic society which Rome inherited had gone into a crisis of meaning by the time of Socrates. Gibbon's Enlightenment notion that Rome was destroyed by barbarism and Christianity seems rather quaint now that the hard truth is known: civilizations commit suicide (something uncongenial to us once parallels are drawn).

Where is this pure Greek science anyhow? Bacon, Newton, Galileo and Descartes are essentially Chaldeans and gnostics hoping to divine nature.

[myroseaccount]

You miss the point! Bacon, Newton, Galileo and Descartes, who were all very different mean living over a period of 250 years, could have existed happily in a Greek or Roman academy quite happily following whatever study or deities they wished. Shortly before, and certainly, after Constantine these men would likely have been killed, their works burnt and forgotten. Their work and study in a period following the rennaissance is what connects them, and Christianity's inability to silence them.

[neothomist1275]

The point: they would have been noble, white-robed sages walking on air without interference from an Oriental cult. Greece and (especially) Rome certainly had their superstitions and intolerances but they did not have institutionalized learning which is Oriental; as Oriental as the kabbalistic propositions of absolute space and absolute

rest and the Chaldean mathematicism of Descartes.

[ExMachine]

His tie is wonky.

[luckyswine]

Clark is actually talking benign nonsense, but in a particularly useful way for our current generation, raised in liberal post-modernist universities. Nobody could make such a series in such a way now. I find its attempts to synthesise and generalise useful - like having your own Etonian education - it allows one a handle on a vast swathe of material. Its omissions and fudges, however, are even more superbly instructive.

[Alessandro1985]

They don't teach you stuff of this quality at a school like eton you fool! This is university level. Moreover, it's not supposed to be a balanced history lesson (how many times does clarke have to make this disclaimer). If you want a comprehensive history, you will have to read many hundreds of books. It's supposed to be one man's passionate introduction to the appreciation of art, the love of art, and as best as a mere television program can, it succeeds wonderfully.

[corlyssd]

Well, actually, he appeared in select American venues before he ever appeared on TV. The whole series was shown at the National Gallery of Art in Washington DC about 2 years before it appeared on TV. It was the response to those showings that signaled PBS they had a topic of general interest, and I underscore the term "general."

[Alessandro1985]

Clark is absolutely wonderful.

[luckyswine]

Thank you for appreciating my foolishness - it is only by persisting in it that I hope to become wise. I've absolutely nothing against Clark or the series at all, I loved it, which I think was my point, although I'm sure Etonians would be offended by your comment on the paucity of the education offered there. Clark was one himself, incidentally. It was that broad, generalist, Apollonian viewpoint which I implied that Clark had absorbed with his mother's milk that I had in mind.

[BRIGSTOCK]

Will European civilisation survive the combination of Islamic fascism (plus the very high birth rate in the muslim world) and politically correct western liberals who tell us to shut up and be grateful for immigration and multiculturalism? One thing is sure, we won't act until it is too late.

[sunnygirl213]

Notice how many in the ruling and bureaucratic classes are moving to China, New Zealand and South America? They've used us up and now they're moving on.

[countrad]

well said mennea, our universities don't turn out gentleman like that anymore

[neothomist1275]

"universities don't turn out gentleman like that anymore"

Have they ever?

[cavaliergaze]

No.

A university is not a factory to turn out young gentlemen. Such moulding is shaped by the house, nanny, prep and public school. Or by that rare breed of man who has escaped the vagaries of state education and raised himself to the acceptable standards! :)

[cagliost]

The complete series is available from mvgroup dot org

[findroi]

its there a version for mac?

[theeader]

Yes: it will work on any operating system. You'll need the xvid codec, not sure if that comes on a Mac or if you need to install it. As for downloading it in the first place, Azeureus is a good bittorrent client for Mac. (If too complicated, you can always buy it - not that expensive.)

[grimunicorn]

I've ordered the DVD. Seen this years ago, must see it again, just to remind myself about Europe, and why I'm pleased to be here....

[TheSanityInspector]

Good ol' Kenneth Clark...I enjoyed this series on VHS, years ago. What a prodigiously learned man he was.