Discussion: Christianity & Politics

[Harleyquinnkitty]

How many times did God command the Israelites to go to war and defeat their enemies...throughout the entire old testament! Jesus is God, he was there, in agreement, with the Father during these times. Sometimes war is necessary to preserve the good. This comes from God himself. If we didn't honor country, fight for our rights, this message could not be seen. God bless our soldiers whose sacrifice allows this message to be spoken.

[flashgm41]

@Harleyquinnkitty

This discussion is not about our soldiers nor trying to impose Old Testament concepts of God, but about the great peacemaker Jesus. On many occasions he said "You have heard it said an eye for an eye, BUT I SAY UNTO Love your enemies. Yes God allows governments to act as police, but that does not mean that that same government is to be worshiped, which what we have in this country. Honor soldiers...yes. Honor institutions....no.

[jescarpita]

boyd and claiborne r sooo ignorant. they claim christians shouldnt involve themselves in the goverment or politics, but David was a King and so was Salomon. Plus the bible talks about wars and battles that were faught with gods approval. these guys know nothing about religion and politics unlike Chuck Coloson, he actually served in the US military and in the white house!!!!

[Mountain0Lightning]

@jescarpita You do realize that David and "Salomon" weren't Christians?

[jescarpita]

@Mountain0Lightning so what? they were still men of God!! is the old testament completely irrelevant to u? u cant pick and choose what u want from the bible. u gotta take the whole book into context, not just the new testament!!

[Hrugnir]

@jescarpita Exactly, so when you take each of the individual 66 books of the Bible into context, you might get a less black and white image than the one you're painting. I think that guy's point was that The New Covenant has different expectations on us than the old one. If you don't agree, hope you're not wearing mixed fabrics!

Let me ask you: If God wanted his kingdom to be furthered by wars, why didn't he help to liberate the Kingdom of Israel, or any other kingdom, to take over the world?

[jescarpita]

@Hrugnir i never ever said anything about establishing a political kingdom, the bible is clearly against that. plus, God would not help "his kingdom" takeover the world be cause it would be against the freewill of others. because of free will, god allows ppl to do enormous evil freely, just as he allows ppl to do enormous amounts of good. y would be sinful not to use our god given free will to do good or to stop those who r using there free will for evil, like hitler

[Hrugnir]

@jescarpita See, I agree with everyone up to this point: "would be sinful not to use our god given free will to... stop those who r using there free will for evil"

Give me an example of Jesus doing this, please.

[jescarpita]

@ your so stupid and close minded. in the bible it is never married a women, so should not marry women just because jesus never did it????????????? jesus never at pizza, so should we not eat pizza just because jesus never ate it???? ur r a stupid ignorant dumbass that give studious educated christians a bad name. i would love to see u argue against a half educated athiest/skeptic. u wouldnt last a sec moron

[Hrugnir]

@jescarpita I might be a stupid, ignorant and close-minded dumbass (and whatever other nice things you might say of me), but you're not really getting my point. I'm not saying we're not allowed to do anything Jesus didn't explicitly do. What I am saying is that Jesus is still our model for a Christian's life. Jesus didn't eat a pizza, but he did eat food. Jesus didn't resist his enemies even when most would've. That tells me something. I last talked with atheists a few hours ago, I might add.

[Hrugnir]

@jescarpita Ah, sorry, I forgot. I might be a moron and someone who gives Christians a bad name as well. I'm ignorant of so many things, and that's why I devote my life to studying the Bible and God.

Believe it or not: there are people out there who will disagree with you, even though they have studied the Bible. I'd just hope we could be respectful Christians about it, and look to our common hope, and not to tearing apart others. Sorry if my initial comment came off as rude or something, btw.

[Ramshobraja]

What is clear is the bible contadicts itself.

[TheAmazingImbecile]

you cannot serve two masters

[flashgm41]

@TheAmazingImbecile

Your right. You cannot serve God and mammon period. ALL alligiance belongs to God and none should be shared. However, if being a good citizen by paying your taxes, obeying the laws of the land and praying for our leaders makes one a patriot, then I guess Christians are the best patriots. But I find nothing in the word of God, nor the teachings of Jesus that would even remotely suggest that we should die for our country.

[greatsea]

It is not at all certain that the way of King and Gandhi would have been fruitful in other sorts of milieus. Often their methods are seen as universally applicable without regard to the social situations in which they operated. There are certain kinds of oppressions that simply will not respond to non-violent activism and if allowed would needlessly wipe out huge sections of the populations relatively just societies. There are some oppressions with which we are responsible to deal violently.

[gobbler6]

Its funny when people worshipping myths start acting like intellectuals. I would be willing to bet in the next 10 years they find a 'gay gene'.

That will ROCK for people who think these people have a choice to be gay or not gay..

I certainly have no choice in being heterosexual.

They will find the gay gene. When they do--perhaps people will realize 'god' if you believe that stuff meant for those people to be what they are. I personally don't believe in Jesus, or any organized religion.

[greatsea]

@gobbler6 -- The advent of epigenetics into the main has certainly complicated the nature vs. nurture picture. A year ago I might have agreed with you but now I don't know. I think "sin" can affect genetic expression.

[gobbler6]

Sin is just a word. You are circling backwards to the Bible and assuming that it is somehow the end all, as most Christians do. You can't use the Bible as your pillar of debate because it is a matter of opinion whether it means this or that. Otherwise there would only be 1 religion in the world.

Living in Taipei now, I can tell you flat out. When you go to the other side of the world--nobody cares about The Bible. They are more honest, and civil than people are in America.  No crime..

[Andybato]

@gobbler6 Haven't you heard anything lately? In the book 'DSM' (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) had orginally listed homosexuality as a mental disorder. However, they had removed it, when the American Psychiatric Association officially claimed that "homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities".

[thegreatbout]

Colson says some decent things but he's off the mark. Shane and Greg show his error easily with scripture in context. This whole series is a good one.

[johnlorican]

It's almost embarrassing to see Greg Boyd and Shaine Claiborne debate someone as strong as Chuck Colson.

Colson is so strong and so brilliant - and the other two look like fools.

[johnlorican]

Yes, Paul talks about exercising judgment on others - which is tough to understand since God gave each of us brains with the ability to discern wisdom from folly....and I listened to this entire broadcast last year - and it was DEFINITELY easy to differentiate the wisdom from the folly.

We all make judgments and discernments every minute of the day (God calls us to) - it's what the mind does; I've never known when that doesn't apply to individuals.

[Armando7654]

that old fart shouldn't be talking christianity, something he knows nothing about

[GOTTshua]

And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, "And what shall we do?"

And he said unto them, "Do violence to no man, nwither accuse any falsely, and be content with your wages."

Not to mention that Shiphrah and Puah BROKE THE LAW and LIED to protect innocent babes against a maniacal dictator in Egypt.

They also, did violence to no man.

[estrafalrious]

The ultra-moron John McShame is getting support only from the blind ultra-conservative zealots, unconditional slaves of they vicious laying idols leaders like Bush, and Rush Liermgbaugh and the FOX rich gang which are making of them a super mornic missinformed mass of loosers.

[CiscoNast]

First century Christians did not become Roman soldiers.

[creatingbliss]

Greg and Shaine are idiots.

[seekHim1]

Everything Greg says is what I think and I like Shane's thoughts too. Chuck is so off Biblically. Yes, we should obey the authorities - that is Scriptural, but where does the Bible tell us to show allegiance and to fight for a country? I once saw a bumper sticker that said, "God bless the whole world - not just America." That about sums it up.

[joshuawilsonanderson]

Greg, I love you brother, you're so right on so many topics but I don't think God intended government positions of Rom. 13 to only be occupied by unbelievers. Can Christians not be police officers?

And there does seem to be some instances of "just war." Though, maybe its very, very, very, seldom that there is a just war to be fought and Christians should stay out of it until then.

[scoot87]

I think Greg is not condemning Christians from being apart of public service or to participate in war. What the difference is that we should not make these things a "collective" behavior where Christians are held responsible for being in government or in war, but it is an individual journey that is decided upon where the Holy Spirit is directing that person.

[joshuawilsonanderson]

That makes sense to me Scoot87.

: )

[scoot87]

cool beans :)

[joshuawilsonanderson]

Coooool BEANS!!

[Delusional101]

We're all called to something a little different than each other I think...

[ILoveYourUsername]

All of us are obviously being taught by Jesus, though, who said love your neighbor...there is no exception to anyone.

[Jeremyguru]

Jesus wasn't the first person to come up with such advice (it's not always good advice). There isn't anything original or special about Jesus or Christianity.

[ILoveYourUsername]

Jesus and Christianity aren't American enough for their goal to be known as original and special. The goal is to do the right thing in all situations. Violence is not an option. Humanity is way to valuable.

[Jeremyguru]

"Violence is not an option. Humanity is way to valuable" Really? Well, when you read the bible, why is God the leading cause of death? You'd think that if human life is so valuable, it's creator would treat it more reverently.

Jesus is not a good role model nor is he a moral teacher. He rants and raves that anyone who disagrees with him will suffer for eternity in a lake of fire, burning furnance, etc. There is no literal punishment of the dead until Jesus meek and mild shows up.

[ILoveYourUsername]

People perish because of disobedience...so reconsider the way you put together your statements. You've made yourself even more disagreeable. I agree that God takes the responsibility for the act of vengeance and I have no problem with that. Romans 12:19 says, "Do not take revenge, dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath. For it is written, "Vengeance belongs to me. I will pay them back, declares the Lord." I suggest that you get a better idea of what you are arguing against, alright?

[Jeremyguru]

"People perish because of disobedience..." Really? Do little babies die because they disobey?

"...so reconsider the way you put together your statements." Why do you think that your lame threats intimidate rational people?

Bla bla bla, "my god is BIG and He can drown people if He wants to. MIGHT MAKES RIGHT!" Is that the best argument you have?

[ILoveYourUsername]

I'm not making any threats, Jeremyguru. I'm sorry that you feel threatened. I'm not here with all the answers, but I have confidence in God. If for some reason all of logic is wrong, I will still have my faith. It's the evidence of the thing that we can't see. God is big. :-) Babies die...true. That doesn't make me doubt God one bit and I'm sorry that you don't have that same peace. My main point at this time and moment really is about how important non-violence is for Christians.

[Jeremyguru]

I don't feel threatened, because your Cosmic Thug isn't real. It's just pathetic that you believe that your imaginary friend would harm me simply for not believing in him.

Your faith is no more evidence that Yahweh is real than the Muslims' faith is for Allah.

I don't need deities to have peace. Yahweh isn't about peace. The bible is full of drowning, smiting, plagues, cursing and torture. According to your good book, God is the greatest cause of death and destruction.

[ILoveYourUsername]

I don't feel that I'm irrational or illogical...either that or I'm not your regular psycho. I legitimately believe that God is real. I've read the Book of Qur'an. I've looked into other religions. I have to admit my doubt...I'm not gonna deny that. I respect whatever it is you believe, but i do urge once again that you would rethink the Bible. "The bible is full of drowning, smiting, plagues, cursing and torture." I can't agree with that statement. It's easy to imagine things when you have bias.

[Jeremyguru]

You must be joking or perhaps you need to read the bible again. The god character of the bible certainly does smite, drown, curse, plague and torture people.

I have no bias. I read the bible (as any book) with a clear mind. Christians read with bias. They examine their holy book while wearing faith goggles. That's why they don't see the absurity of their beliefs.

[Soul0125]

People have to go to war sometimes. Somebody had to fight the Nazis, somebody has to protect homeland security from terrorists. God calls people to war in the bible. There's no conflict between loving your neighbor and gallantly surrendering your life to protect your nation.

[stellarlove21]

Soul0125, the Iraq war was based on lies. This has been one of the most corrupt administrations in presidential history. I suggest you pick up some non right-wing books to get a different viewpoint. Even Republicans now know that this war was not justified. Innocent Americans and Iraqis have had to die for a lie.

[scoot87]

God called people to war in the Old Testament. The New Testament is a new paradigm where our allegiance is to the Kingdom of God and not of the kingdoms of this world. When you decide to serve your nation, that is something that is between you and God on if this is God's will for you.

[Shanerville]

How can we, as Christians, pick up a gun and kill someone when Christ specifically told us to love our enemies? If Christ is God how can it be God's will for any of us to go to war? Soul0125 tells us we should sacrifice our lives for our nation but why should we care any more for our nation than anyone else in the world? Jesus died for everyone or is it just America now? If we were a Christian nation we would have done as Christ commanded on Sep 11th and we would have turned the other cheek.

[seekHim1]

AMEN! :) I think people are missing Greg's message: if one is following Jesus, then one should be Christ-like and fight evil the ways He did. And if one chooses to fight evil the ways the world does (i.e. politics, wars, etc.), stop putting a Christian stamp on it b/c that is doing a ton of harm to the message of the kingdom of God.

[RuggedcrossP]

@Soul0125 But didn't Jesus say to love your enemies?