@w9j15g The speaker can choose of his or her own free will to pray or not to pray. The moment the school/government steps in and says "you MUST pray" or "you CANNOT pray" is when it becomes an issue. And the school did step in, violate the student's Constitutional rights and demand they cannot pray.
By demanding that no one ever be allowed to pray, that's exactly what's going on: forcing the belief of atheism on everyone else.
@bodeezy The fish to man story of evolution is not science - it's an imagined version of evolution that has never been observed and cannot be shown in repeatable test cases that was concocted because of refusal to believe in God. Hence it cannot even qualify as science, it's merely a belief, hence it's a religion.
No, acting of her own accord to say what she wants to say. The state didn't tell her to mention God (and they can't do so and don't). But the state also cannot tell her to NOT mention God. It's called freedom of speech and freedom of religious expression. It's called not passing any laws that PROHIBIT the free exercise of religous expression.
The speaker's Constitutional/Free Speech/Religious Freedom rights were utterly violated.
Prayer belongs in non-taxpayer funded forums ie. church homes and so forth. If the majority of the students agreed to have an all out orgy during a basketball game it would not be allowed. Not because orgies are illegal because, they're not, but because it is a private group thing and illegal in a public forum.
forumlight calling the fact of evolution a "religion of there is no god". Do some research you weak minded moron.
divinenewsnetwork calling the ACLU "evil". What do you expect from someone with that name? Perfect show of tolerance also, calling someone "evil". Your religion is far more evil than someone standing up for their rights. You suck.
No, it's not government assets - its the assets of the very people that personally CHOSE to have prayer in this case. And the government is now trying to establish a law/rule FORBIDDING the free exercise of religious expression. Not to mention tax-funded schools are promoting the religion of "there is no God, you evolved from animals (specifically fish)".
What a shame, May God have mercy on this students soul on Judgement Day. People like this and the ACLU is trying to remove God from people hearts. Evil!
@ForumLight She was acting as an official representative of the school in a school ceremony so it WAS state sponsorship. The state provided the forum and the microphone.
@w9j15g She's not representing the school - she's representing herself. To make sure the majority of others were ok with it, a vote was held. In my opinion no vote was necessary - if the person giving the speech wants to mention God and Christ, they can. If they don't want to, they can do that too. The vote was not needed, as this is America, not a third-world country where a select few hate on God and demand NO one dare mention Him unless they give their permission.
@ForumLight She was representing the school and you admit as much by saying a vote was held. In America, we don't vote on whether or not to abide by the constitution and to respect the rights of others. Christians are some really arrogant people. Not all of them, just the ones who make a public display of the religiosity. Those are the untrustworthy ones who are putting on a false front of piety to gain your trust so they can stab you in the back. Jesus said to pray in private. So obey him.
@w9j15g No, the vote was to make sure the majority did not have a problem with it - and again that's why I think there should not have been a vote. It was the individual's choice, so whether the rest of the class "had a problem with it" would be irrelevant.
And it's a question of the heart. If they are doing it for praise of men, it's vanity.
You mention arrogance while ignoring the arrogance of those of us who DEMAND no one DARE pray except when said individuals give them permission.
@ForumLight No one is demanding that people not pray without permission. The first amendment gives you that right, but it also ENSURES that right by keeping government OUT of religion. That is what people are demanding.
Did you know that students have the right to pray in public schools? As long as they do it of their own volition and are not disruptive, then it's their right. However, they can't go on the school's PA system and lead others in prayer. Same thing in this case.
@w9j15g Yes they are demanding that this person not be allowed to personally choose to pray (or personally choose to not pray) if they so desire in this case. They instead only give "permission" to pray in situations of their liking. Sorry but you're contradicting yourself and just continue to repeat the same thing.
They weren't on the school's PA system - it was at a gathering. You continue to be disengenuous while repeating what I've already addressed.
@ForumLight I gave the PA scenario as an example of THE SAME BASIC THING. If I am repeating myself, then it is because you are being stubbornly stupid. Praying as an individual and praying as a representative of the school in a school ceremony are two different things. I tell you what. Let's just scrap the first amendment and ban all religious freedom. That would make you happy. Then to make me happy, I get to choose what beliefs the government sponsors and forces on everyone: atheism.
This is not about deporting people - this is about people's constitutional right to personally choose to pray. FIrst Amendment "Congress shall pass no law prohibiting the free excercise of religious expression" - these people at this particular high school are choosing to pray - the school or district or government is not forcing it on anyone, nor are they allowed to pass any law/rule that would *prohibit* them from being able to do so.
This isn't about "people's constitutional right to personally choose to pray." If it was, this wouldn't be an issue. Anyone can pray to themselves at any time. The problem is that they are using government assets to promote one specific religion or theism on everyone in attendance.
Whereas you state "the school district ...is not forcing it on anyone," you are correct, but it's because it is prohibited is why it isn't being forced on anyone, not because the majority approves.
@futurepsycdoc It's a freedom of religous expression. You cannot pass a law telling her she cannot mention "Jesus" she cannot mention "God" and so on - but you try. And it's a violation of the First Ammendment of the Constitution of the United States of America to insist a student giving a speech cannot mention such things in their speech. It's not the first time a select few atheists sue to restric the free speech of Christians and claim "irreparable harm" or other such nonsense.
The school does not have religious expression. You may want to re-watch the video. You seem to be confused or your bias may cause you to be making the error. This is about school sanctioned prayer, which violates the freedoms we share. I know it must aggravate you that schools aren't allowed to force your religious beliefs on everyone else, but it also protects your religious beliefs at the same time.
@futurepsycdoc It's not a school sanctioned prayer - it's ONE individual choosing to mention God. A school-sanctioned prayer would be the officials MAKING the valedictorian mention God. So you're being disengenuous.
No one can force a valedictorian to mention God. But just as importantly, no one can force a valedictorian to NOT mention God. Violation of Constitutional rights to try doing so. It's that simple.
I'm failing to understand why I have to cover this with you again. Have you even watched the video because your comments do not reflect it? The student body voted for the prayer to be included. The person reading the prayer would be forced to read the prayer at a school function. This is not about a speaker choosing to include a prayer in their own statement. Your bias leaves you failing to reason on the most basic level. They are making the valedictorian mention god.
@futurepsycdoc The person reading the prayer is not the one that does not want the prayer, FPD. The student body decided of their own free will to have a prayer (it's called democracy) so they are having it. If they held a vote and the majority did NOT want it, they would not have it. The freedom works both ways. The problem is, a few individuals hate it if the vote goes against them, so they sue. Sorry, this is America, not a third-world country. There shall be no law that PROHIBITS it.
If he believes no one should be subjected to other's religions beliefs, every public school student is subjected to the religious belief of "there is no God." So again, each school by choice should be allowed to choose if they wish to pray or not, rather than be forced to accept the atheist religion of "there is no God" and "nothing created everything".
From what I can tell, Eric is not trying to slam a religion or prohibit them from prayer, just a public prayer that subjects everyone to the christian ritual in a tax ran facility. and @cardshark0851 you sound a bit like a fool good sir, you complain that he won't go on camera and that makes him not able to "walk the walk". His full name is all over the news, we know who he is anyway. Not like he is hiding his identity. Fail insult is fail.
@LonesomeLogan The Constitution never guarantees the right to not be offended by religion. In fact, what the Constitution does guarantee is the right to freely practice religion, and there are no conditions on that which say "except in public" or "except in a speech at a high school graduation". Damn the ignorance of our Constitution infuriates me. Read the 1st Amendment and then get back to me.
I think the real problem lies in the fact that a singular religion is being used in this prayer. What would you all say if they voted to change the word "Lord" or "God" to "Allah" ? If the Christians want to say a prayer at graduation let them say it. They can do this to themselves or in the parking lot before/after, but not on my tax dollars. The vote was a sham also, seeing as how Indiana is a red state and a predominantly christian state anyways.
Your comparison dont compare because Islam and Alah have already been finding its way into public school books in several states.Californa and other states has been forcing their children to use "Across the Centuries" social studies book which forces the study of mohammad and Islam.
Where was the ACLU and all you libs then?
The parents had to sue the schools on their own and lost.Also where were all you ACLU'ERS when Kansas City built puplic prayer stations and foot baths on tax payer money.
Correct: it must not inhibit free exercise - they peronally chose to have prayer at this school, and they're trying to get the government to prohibit their personal choice at this particular school. It's unconstitutional to forbid what they personally chose.
@ForumLight What is unconstitutional is the students making an unconstitutional choice. LonesomeLogan makes a good point. What if they replaced Jesus/Lord with Allah or even Xenu? Would everybody be fine with that? The majority of students voted for it because the majority are Christian. You can't just forget the minority or pretend they don't exist. You can't say that's just how democracy works when we have a Constitution that forbids this sort of thing from happening.
@ForumLight Think about it this way. What if the United States decided that every black person should go back to Africa? The majority voted for it didn't they? Or what if all of the women in the United States decided we should kill all the men? The majority voted for it didn't they? Even though there are more whites than blacks and more women than men, aren't those things fair to do? No, of course not. So why is it unconstitutional to forbid what this biased majority voted for? BURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
If he believes no one should be subjected to other's religions beliefs, every public school student is subjected to the religious belief of "there is no God." So again, each school by choice should be allowed to choose if they wish to pray or not, rather than be forced to accept the atheist religion of "there is no God" and "nothing created everything".
First Amendment: no law shall be established PRHOBITING the FREE EXERCISE of religion. To have them force these people to not be able to choose to pray by their own choice is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Christians need to stand up to this false, perverted claim of the First Amendment. These people personally chose to pray at their graduation - to pass a law forbidding them from doing so is what's UNconstitutional.
This goes to show Greenwood High School is shitty at teaching US Government in High School. Anyone who voted for school prayer doesn't deserve to graduate!
I'm not going to be subject to his views during his valedictorian speech if he does not respect my religious beliefs. This was just a way of trying to seek attention because he lacks friends. And Eric, if you think you're a Woodman, you're wrong. And why didn't you go on camera? You can "talk the talk" but can't "walk the walk"?
@w9j15g The speaker can choose of his or her own free will to pray or not to pray. The moment the school/government steps in and says "you MUST pray" or "you CANNOT pray" is when it becomes an issue. And the school did step in, violate the student's Constitutional rights and demand they cannot pray.
By demanding that no one ever be allowed to pray, that's exactly what's going on: forcing the belief of atheism on everyone else.
ForumLight 2 months ago
@bodeezy The fish to man story of evolution is not science - it's an imagined version of evolution that has never been observed and cannot be shown in repeatable test cases that was concocted because of refusal to believe in God. Hence it cannot even qualify as science, it's merely a belief, hence it's a religion.
ForumLight 2 months ago
No, acting of her own accord to say what she wants to say. The state didn't tell her to mention God (and they can't do so and don't). But the state also cannot tell her to NOT mention God. It's called freedom of speech and freedom of religious expression. It's called not passing any laws that PROHIBIT the free exercise of religous expression.
The speaker's Constitutional/Free Speech/Religious Freedom rights were utterly violated.
ForumLight 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Nowhere in the constitution do the words "freedom of religion" appear, yet we know that is what the first amendment means.
Nowhere in the constitution do the words "separation of church and state" appear, yet we know that is what the first amendment means.
Try to deny the latter and you will soon be without the former.
w9j15g 9 months ago
Prayer belongs in non-taxpayer funded forums ie. church homes and so forth. If the majority of the students agreed to have an all out orgy during a basketball game it would not be allowed. Not because orgies are illegal because, they're not, but because it is a private group thing and illegal in a public forum.
BTW who wants to help me start up a sex cult?
luisdez81 9 months ago
Glad someone is making a stand. Props to Eric.
statixmx 1 year ago
Man, you religious people are fucking stupid.
forumlight calling the fact of evolution a "religion of there is no god". Do some research you weak minded moron.
divinenewsnetwork calling the ACLU "evil". What do you expect from someone with that name? Perfect show of tolerance also, calling someone "evil". Your religion is far more evil than someone standing up for their rights. You suck.
bodeezy 1 year ago 2
No, it's not government assets - its the assets of the very people that personally CHOSE to have prayer in this case. And the government is now trying to establish a law/rule FORBIDDING the free exercise of religious expression. Not to mention tax-funded schools are promoting the religion of "there is no God, you evolved from animals (specifically fish)".
ForumLight 1 year ago
What a shame, May God have mercy on this students soul on Judgement Day. People like this and the ACLU is trying to remove God from people hearts. Evil!
DivineNewsNetwork 1 year ago
First Amendment concerning religion - Congress shall pass no law *prohibiting* the free exercise thereof.
The people at this particular school chose it freely, and to get a rule or law to prohibit them from doing so is unconstitutional.
ForumLight 1 year ago
@ForumLight If the prayer is part of the ceremonial program, then it is state sponsorship of religion.
w9j15g 9 months ago
@w9j15g It was brought by personal choice of one person: the person who is giving the speech. Not state sponsored.
ForumLight 8 months ago
@ForumLight She was acting as an official representative of the school in a school ceremony so it WAS state sponsorship. The state provided the forum and the microphone.
w9j15g 8 months ago
@w9j15g She's not representing the school - she's representing herself. To make sure the majority of others were ok with it, a vote was held. In my opinion no vote was necessary - if the person giving the speech wants to mention God and Christ, they can. If they don't want to, they can do that too. The vote was not needed, as this is America, not a third-world country where a select few hate on God and demand NO one dare mention Him unless they give their permission.
ForumLight 4 months ago
@ForumLight She was representing the school and you admit as much by saying a vote was held. In America, we don't vote on whether or not to abide by the constitution and to respect the rights of others. Christians are some really arrogant people. Not all of them, just the ones who make a public display of the religiosity. Those are the untrustworthy ones who are putting on a false front of piety to gain your trust so they can stab you in the back. Jesus said to pray in private. So obey him.
w9j15g 4 months ago
@w9j15g No, the vote was to make sure the majority did not have a problem with it - and again that's why I think there should not have been a vote. It was the individual's choice, so whether the rest of the class "had a problem with it" would be irrelevant.
And it's a question of the heart. If they are doing it for praise of men, it's vanity.
You mention arrogance while ignoring the arrogance of those of us who DEMAND no one DARE pray except when said individuals give them permission.
ForumLight 4 months ago
@ForumLight No one is demanding that people not pray without permission. The first amendment gives you that right, but it also ENSURES that right by keeping government OUT of religion. That is what people are demanding.
Did you know that students have the right to pray in public schools? As long as they do it of their own volition and are not disruptive, then it's their right. However, they can't go on the school's PA system and lead others in prayer. Same thing in this case.
w9j15g 4 months ago
@w9j15g Yes they are demanding that this person not be allowed to personally choose to pray (or personally choose to not pray) if they so desire in this case. They instead only give "permission" to pray in situations of their liking. Sorry but you're contradicting yourself and just continue to repeat the same thing.
They weren't on the school's PA system - it was at a gathering. You continue to be disengenuous while repeating what I've already addressed.
ForumLight 4 months ago
@ForumLight I gave the PA scenario as an example of THE SAME BASIC THING. If I am repeating myself, then it is because you are being stubbornly stupid. Praying as an individual and praying as a representative of the school in a school ceremony are two different things. I tell you what. Let's just scrap the first amendment and ban all religious freedom. That would make you happy. Then to make me happy, I get to choose what beliefs the government sponsors and forces on everyone: atheism.
w9j15g 4 months ago
crimsoncitizen
This is not about deporting people - this is about people's constitutional right to personally choose to pray. FIrst Amendment "Congress shall pass no law prohibiting the free excercise of religious expression" - these people at this particular high school are choosing to pray - the school or district or government is not forcing it on anyone, nor are they allowed to pass any law/rule that would *prohibit* them from being able to do so.
ForumLight 1 year ago
@ForumLight
This isn't about "people's constitutional right to personally choose to pray." If it was, this wouldn't be an issue. Anyone can pray to themselves at any time. The problem is that they are using government assets to promote one specific religion or theism on everyone in attendance.
Whereas you state "the school district ...is not forcing it on anyone," you are correct, but it's because it is prohibited is why it isn't being forced on anyone, not because the majority approves.
futurepsycdoc 1 year ago 2
@futurepsycdoc It's a freedom of religous expression. You cannot pass a law telling her she cannot mention "Jesus" she cannot mention "God" and so on - but you try. And it's a violation of the First Ammendment of the Constitution of the United States of America to insist a student giving a speech cannot mention such things in their speech. It's not the first time a select few atheists sue to restric the free speech of Christians and claim "irreparable harm" or other such nonsense.
ForumLight 8 months ago
@ForumLight
The school does not have religious expression. You may want to re-watch the video. You seem to be confused or your bias may cause you to be making the error. This is about school sanctioned prayer, which violates the freedoms we share. I know it must aggravate you that schools aren't allowed to force your religious beliefs on everyone else, but it also protects your religious beliefs at the same time.
futurepsycdoc 8 months ago
@futurepsycdoc It's not a school sanctioned prayer - it's ONE individual choosing to mention God. A school-sanctioned prayer would be the officials MAKING the valedictorian mention God. So you're being disengenuous.
No one can force a valedictorian to mention God. But just as importantly, no one can force a valedictorian to NOT mention God. Violation of Constitutional rights to try doing so. It's that simple.
ForumLight 7 months ago
@ForumLight
I'm failing to understand why I have to cover this with you again. Have you even watched the video because your comments do not reflect it? The student body voted for the prayer to be included. The person reading the prayer would be forced to read the prayer at a school function. This is not about a speaker choosing to include a prayer in their own statement. Your bias leaves you failing to reason on the most basic level. They are making the valedictorian mention god.
futurepsycdoc 5 months ago
@futurepsycdoc The person reading the prayer is not the one that does not want the prayer, FPD. The student body decided of their own free will to have a prayer (it's called democracy) so they are having it. If they held a vote and the majority did NOT want it, they would not have it. The freedom works both ways. The problem is, a few individuals hate it if the vote goes against them, so they sue. Sorry, this is America, not a third-world country. There shall be no law that PROHIBITS it.
ForumLight 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
If he believes no one should be subjected to other's religions beliefs, every public school student is subjected to the religious belief of "there is no God." So again, each school by choice should be allowed to choose if they wish to pray or not, rather than be forced to accept the atheist religion of "there is no God" and "nothing created everything".
ForumLight 1 year ago
We don't need religion of any kind in school
What if the kid was muslim & wanted to pray to allah?
There would be outrage.
bodeezy 1 year ago 3
From what I can tell, Eric is not trying to slam a religion or prohibit them from prayer, just a public prayer that subjects everyone to the christian ritual in a tax ran facility. and @cardshark0851 you sound a bit like a fool good sir, you complain that he won't go on camera and that makes him not able to "walk the walk". His full name is all over the news, we know who he is anyway. Not like he is hiding his identity. Fail insult is fail.
LonesomeLogan 1 year ago 8
@LonesomeLogan The Constitution never guarantees the right to not be offended by religion. In fact, what the Constitution does guarantee is the right to freely practice religion, and there are no conditions on that which say "except in public" or "except in a speech at a high school graduation". Damn the ignorance of our Constitution infuriates me. Read the 1st Amendment and then get back to me.
ColibriAnna08 2 months ago
I think the real problem lies in the fact that a singular religion is being used in this prayer. What would you all say if they voted to change the word "Lord" or "God" to "Allah" ? If the Christians want to say a prayer at graduation let them say it. They can do this to themselves or in the parking lot before/after, but not on my tax dollars. The vote was a sham also, seeing as how Indiana is a red state and a predominantly christian state anyways.
LonesomeLogan 1 year ago 2
Your comparison dont compare because Islam and Alah have already been finding its way into public school books in several states.Californa and other states has been forcing their children to use "Across the Centuries" social studies book which forces the study of mohammad and Islam.
Where was the ACLU and all you libs then?
The parents had to sue the schools on their own and lost.Also where were all you ACLU'ERS when Kansas City built puplic prayer stations and foot baths on tax payer money.
deepcloudable 1 year ago
Me! Me! Me! It's all about me! I don't care if a vote was taken and the majority approved it!! It's all about me!!
robtjonz 1 year ago
Correct: it must not inhibit free exercise - they peronally chose to have prayer at this school, and they're trying to get the government to prohibit their personal choice at this particular school. It's unconstitutional to forbid what they personally chose.
ForumLight 1 year ago
@ForumLight What is unconstitutional is the students making an unconstitutional choice. LonesomeLogan makes a good point. What if they replaced Jesus/Lord with Allah or even Xenu? Would everybody be fine with that? The majority of students voted for it because the majority are Christian. You can't just forget the minority or pretend they don't exist. You can't say that's just how democracy works when we have a Constitution that forbids this sort of thing from happening.
crimsoncitizen 1 year ago
@ForumLight Think about it this way. What if the United States decided that every black person should go back to Africa? The majority voted for it didn't they? Or what if all of the women in the United States decided we should kill all the men? The majority voted for it didn't they? Even though there are more whites than blacks and more women than men, aren't those things fair to do? No, of course not. So why is it unconstitutional to forbid what this biased majority voted for? BURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
crimsoncitizen 1 year ago
Look up the case Lemon V. Kurtzman. This doesn't pass the Lemon test:
1. Have a secular purpose;
2. Must neither advance nor inhibit religion as its primary effect, and;
3. Must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion.
crimsoncitizen 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
If he believes no one should be subjected to other's religions beliefs, every public school student is subjected to the religious belief of "there is no God." So again, each school by choice should be allowed to choose if they wish to pray or not, rather than be forced to accept the atheist religion of "there is no God" and "nothing created everything".
ForumLight 1 year ago
You are wrong on every level of your argument.
bodeezy 1 year ago 2
First Amendment: no law shall be established PRHOBITING the FREE EXERCISE of religion. To have them force these people to not be able to choose to pray by their own choice is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Christians need to stand up to this false, perverted claim of the First Amendment. These people personally chose to pray at their graduation - to pass a law forbidding them from doing so is what's UNconstitutional.
ForumLight 1 year ago
This goes to show Greenwood High School is shitty at teaching US Government in High School. Anyone who voted for school prayer doesn't deserve to graduate!
robertmike57 1 year ago
I'm not going to be subject to his views during his valedictorian speech if he does not respect my religious beliefs. This was just a way of trying to seek attention because he lacks friends. And Eric, if you think you're a Woodman, you're wrong. And why didn't you go on camera? You can "talk the talk" but can't "walk the walk"?
cardshark0851 1 year ago