All the OT prophets spoke, prophetically, in the name of and in the voice of, God. This hen quotation does not in any way "prove" Christ's divinity. It just as likely denotes that he spoke as the OT prophets spoke.
I came across this video and decided to read 2 Esdras. It's a fascinating piece of apocalyptic writing, and very beautiful in many places. If it hadn't been relegated to the Apocrypha, I figure it would have become as popular as Revelation.
This was a great video, I had forgotten about this. Not only is the point useful for those who would dispute the divinity of Christ, but just as important for those who would dispute the fact that the New Testament doesnt use quotes from the Apocrypha.
Is some old story i don't know from where there is a story of a swan or goose that plucks at her own breast to feed her young. It is a symbol of self sacrifice.
"Wrong, it's a goose"? Actually, the semantic range of the English word "hen" can include any female bird (e.g. do you know what the female equivalent of a peacock is called?), and this has been the case since perhaps the 14th century (i.e. since long before the translation of the KJV). So it being a goose or swan does not negate it being a hen.
i want to read what ever was put together before the king james bible.... there must have been other attemps at putting together these books. any info or refference would be helpful
HELIXOMNI, English translations of the Bible which predate the KJV include the Douay-Rheims (which can still be found in bookstores), the Geneva Bible, the Bishop's Bible, John Wyclif's translation, and others. I'm not sure which, if any, of these translations includes 2 Esdras (AKA 4 Ezra), though I have seen a Douay translation of the work (which is nearly identical to the King James version) online.
@AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee Thanks Mr Abu! What I am really after is how Yahshua Hamashiac was transliterated in the Name Jesus Christ. After all the letter J is not in the hebrew alphabet, I was wondering if Saul whos named was changed to Paul Changed his name so that the greeks could understand it? But I know that the english language wasnt a useable untill about 1000bc give or take a yr lol. By what name did the disciples call Jesus in their own language? are there manuscripts with Yah's son's
HELIXOMNI, the name is Yeshoo`a (yod-shin-waw-ayn), which is itself an Aramaic hypocoristic for Yehoshu`a. Greek did not have a phoneme like 'sh', thus all Hebrew/Aramaic names with such get rendered with an 's'. Thus yeshoo`a becomes iesou (the 's' at the end of Jesus is due to a grammatical construct which does not always appear in the Greek). That entered Latin as Iesus, which later became Jesus (and the 'J' is pronounced differently in different languages).
@AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee name written in the original language / toungue. How do we know it's Yahshua or Yehshua. Are there manuscripts with those names written?
HELIXOMNI, if you wish to see how the original name is spelled, consult the Pesheetto (AKA Peshitta), the ancient Aramaic New Testament. It is rendered yod-shin-waw-ayn (yeshoo`a). There is no 'H' (as in Ya*H*shua). The name is an Aramaic hypocoristic for Yehoshu`a (Joshua). See how Joshua son of Nun is referred to in Nehemiah 8:17.
By the time of the Septuagint and New Testament, all instances of Yehoshu`a were read as Yeshoo`a, hence the reason the Greek always renders it iesou.
There is also the problem of the dating of 2 Esdras since many shcolars date it to the first century ad. Unless you can show that it was composed before Jesus' ministry and that he and his followers would have known of its existence then I think it's quite a strecth to assume that Christ's words are a deliberate echo of 2 Esdras. The most you can prove is that these sources drew on a common image of God which the Jews knew.
A fair point, sir. I myself have major doubts about 4 Ezra (also called 2 Esdras). For the most part, the RCC does not include it in their canon (though apparently Pope Clement VIII was of two minds on this issue, and certain Russian uniates still employ it). It was never in the Septuagint, and so the Greek Orthodox Church does not use it (but Russian Orthodox do, because, strangely, Cyril and Methodius considered it Scripture, and thus it appears in Slavonic Bibles as 3 Ezra).
Abu, I hate to disagree with you but that is not conclusive proof that the images comes 2 Esdras since even in the image of 1611 which you posted, and as yourself noted in the video, you will see that there is a cross-reference to Matthew 23:37 where Jesus uses the same image of himself. So how do you know for certain that the image of the hen isn't derived Jesus' words?
SHAMOUNIAN, I agree with you. I was mainly trying to show how (some of) the KJV translators understood the issue (as, at the turn of the 17th century, much of the Anglican Church was split on the cannon of Scripture, though, no doubt, King James himself was hostile to the so-called "Apocrypha"). The point was that some of the KJV translators may have thought Christ was quoting 2 Esdras (AKA4 Ezra). I mainly use 2 Esdras when debating persons who fully affirm it as Scripture (e.g. UPKers).
All the OT prophets spoke, prophetically, in the name of and in the voice of, God. This hen quotation does not in any way "prove" Christ's divinity. It just as likely denotes that he spoke as the OT prophets spoke.
nhprman 7 months ago
I came across this video and decided to read 2 Esdras. It's a fascinating piece of apocalyptic writing, and very beautiful in many places. If it hadn't been relegated to the Apocrypha, I figure it would have become as popular as Revelation.
beardo373 10 months ago
This was a great video, I had forgotten about this. Not only is the point useful for those who would dispute the divinity of Christ, but just as important for those who would dispute the fact that the New Testament doesnt use quotes from the Apocrypha.
chaadash777 1 year ago
The name Jesus; dose it really have any connections to Zeus a greek pagan god?
Helixomni 1 year ago
@Helixomni yes, it does.
RebelAllianceMedia 1 year ago
@Helixomni Jesus has nothing to do with any greek gods. His name is Jesus.
LifeLibertyLove 1 year ago
@Helixomni yes His name is Yahuwshua and the Father Yahweh(YHWH)
EndIgnoranceb42012 10 months ago
@EndIgnoranceb42012 so you believe that Yahuwshua and the Father Yahweh has a connection to Zeus?
Helixomni 10 months ago
@Helixomni not at all.jezues is zues. Yahuwshua is the Messiah from the bible.
EndIgnoranceb42012 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
do you think there was written, in hewbrew, a new testament version that pre-dates the versions of the bible that you listed below?
Helixomni 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
do you think there was written, in hewbrew, a new testament version that pre-dates the versions of the bible that you listed below?
Helixomni 1 year ago
do you think there was written, in hewbrew, a new testament version that pre-dates the version of the bible that you mention below?
Helixomni 1 year ago
I concede....my education to slight and my emotions to quick...
charleshomerbill 1 year ago
Is some old story i don't know from where there is a story of a swan or goose that plucks at her own breast to feed her young. It is a symbol of self sacrifice.
charleshomerbill 1 year ago
Wrong... It's a goose.
charleshomerbill 1 year ago
"Wrong, it's a goose"? Actually, the semantic range of the English word "hen" can include any female bird (e.g. do you know what the female equivalent of a peacock is called?), and this has been the case since perhaps the 14th century (i.e. since long before the translation of the KJV). So it being a goose or swan does not negate it being a hen.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 1 year ago
i want to read what ever was put together before the king james bible.... there must have been other attemps at putting together these books. any info or refference would be helpful
Helixomni 1 year ago
HELIXOMNI, English translations of the Bible which predate the KJV include the Douay-Rheims (which can still be found in bookstores), the Geneva Bible, the Bishop's Bible, John Wyclif's translation, and others. I'm not sure which, if any, of these translations includes 2 Esdras (AKA 4 Ezra), though I have seen a Douay translation of the work (which is nearly identical to the King James version) online.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 1 year ago
@AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee Thanks Mr Abu! What I am really after is how Yahshua Hamashiac was transliterated in the Name Jesus Christ. After all the letter J is not in the hebrew alphabet, I was wondering if Saul whos named was changed to Paul Changed his name so that the greeks could understand it? But I know that the english language wasnt a useable untill about 1000bc give or take a yr lol. By what name did the disciples call Jesus in their own language? are there manuscripts with Yah's son's
Helixomni 1 year ago
HELIXOMNI, the name is Yeshoo`a (yod-shin-waw-ayn), which is itself an Aramaic hypocoristic for Yehoshu`a. Greek did not have a phoneme like 'sh', thus all Hebrew/Aramaic names with such get rendered with an 's'. Thus yeshoo`a becomes iesou (the 's' at the end of Jesus is due to a grammatical construct which does not always appear in the Greek). That entered Latin as Iesus, which later became Jesus (and the 'J' is pronounced differently in different languages).
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 1 year ago
@AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee name written in the original language / toungue. How do we know it's Yahshua or Yehshua. Are there manuscripts with those names written?
Helixomni 1 year ago
HELIXOMNI, if you wish to see how the original name is spelled, consult the Pesheetto (AKA Peshitta), the ancient Aramaic New Testament. It is rendered yod-shin-waw-ayn (yeshoo`a). There is no 'H' (as in Ya*H*shua). The name is an Aramaic hypocoristic for Yehoshu`a (Joshua). See how Joshua son of Nun is referred to in Nehemiah 8:17.
By the time of the Septuagint and New Testament, all instances of Yehoshu`a were read as Yeshoo`a, hence the reason the Greek always renders it iesou.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 1 year ago
@AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee Sorry, I didn' mean to ask so much... .... it's just what I have been thinking about lately
Helixomni 1 year ago
2 Esdras 6:9 Esau is the end of the world and Jacob is the beginning of that which followeth. Enough said. That only speaks volumes.
jatamode 2 years ago
JATAMODE, "enough said"? Could you elaborate? I don't see the immediate relevance of your comment to this video.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
Abu, is there an online website where i can go get a picture of the cover of the original first print kj bible?
kahanyah 2 years ago
KAHANYAH, I have seen websites, but the pictures were always small. I'll e-mail you the scan I have.
[NOTA BENE: Anyone else who would like the scan can send me a private message with their e-mail address.]
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
There is also the problem of the dating of 2 Esdras since many shcolars date it to the first century ad. Unless you can show that it was composed before Jesus' ministry and that he and his followers would have known of its existence then I think it's quite a strecth to assume that Christ's words are a deliberate echo of 2 Esdras. The most you can prove is that these sources drew on a common image of God which the Jews knew.
shamounian 2 years ago
A fair point, sir. I myself have major doubts about 4 Ezra (also called 2 Esdras). For the most part, the RCC does not include it in their canon (though apparently Pope Clement VIII was of two minds on this issue, and certain Russian uniates still employ it). It was never in the Septuagint, and so the Greek Orthodox Church does not use it (but Russian Orthodox do, because, strangely, Cyril and Methodius considered it Scripture, and thus it appears in Slavonic Bibles as 3 Ezra).
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
Abu, I hate to disagree with you but that is not conclusive proof that the images comes 2 Esdras since even in the image of 1611 which you posted, and as yourself noted in the video, you will see that there is a cross-reference to Matthew 23:37 where Jesus uses the same image of himself. So how do you know for certain that the image of the hen isn't derived Jesus' words?
shamounian 2 years ago
SHAMOUNIAN, I agree with you. I was mainly trying to show how (some of) the KJV translators understood the issue (as, at the turn of the 17th century, much of the Anglican Church was split on the cannon of Scripture, though, no doubt, King James himself was hostile to the so-called "Apocrypha"). The point was that some of the KJV translators may have thought Christ was quoting 2 Esdras (AKA4 Ezra). I mainly use 2 Esdras when debating persons who fully affirm it as Scripture (e.g. UPKers).
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
great
jonbob100 3 years ago