While I do agree with the general point of this video, I do wonder what you consider to be the ethical difference between giving a woman the eye and... 9:45? Is it that the latter is less subtle than the former? That doesn't sound convincing to me.
Note that I'm not saying that the latter is appropriate, just looking for what you think is the difference here.
is it ok if man asks a woman he hasn't met for permission to grab her ass.
is it wrong for a guy to to say to woman he hasn't met that he likes her tits.
how well does a guy need to know a girl before it's ok to start to talk about sex. Vile gesture with the tongue is vile only because christian society tells us that sex is vile. Maybe aggressiveness comes from men not getting distinction btween objectification&attraction,&feeling angry;learning it's not nice to objectify,but nice finish last.
men accuse women of objectifying themselves only sarcasticly to point out how objectification is a stupid concept. Men don't accuse other men of objectifying themselves because men don't complain about being objectified.
catch 22: Can't appreciate a woman's thoughts&feelings until you get her to talk to you, with only appearance to go on, can't talk about appearance 'cause objectification. If platonic reason to talk, business only
As a guy you experience this so rarely, and girls appear to try to get your attention, in a way presenting themselves, rather than looking like they plan to devour you. The only times I experienced that uncomfortable objectification was in the presence of the occasional greasy gay man with an "odd" smile on his face. It allows one to relate to what some women talk about; not a good feeling.
p.s. The way you say "that bothers me" at 9:50 reminds me of Richard Feynman :P
I'm a little confused. I agree with the stance, but not with the argument used to justify it in this case.
Your argument is that grabbing your ass shows little regard for how you might think/feel and that they are unaware of your consent. On the flip side, what if I don't wish to be looked at sexually? What if that upsets me? You can't say, "well it's based on my discretion", because that's too flimsy.
@m0ufin - I'd say that grabbing a person's ass is a hell of a different thing entirely from merely looking at a person. It's valid to take issue with unwanted touching, it is invalid, not to mention insane, to have a problem with someone merely looking at you, even if they are committing the disgusting act of having sexual thoughts of you.
@gir908922 Another point that should be brought up is that porn and media don't "objectify" us, either. Objectification happens in the mind of the person doing it. Media products don't have a mind, so they can't "objectify" anybody.
Sorry, Divinity - despite agreeing with *everything you have to say here regards the actual topic (objectification), I have to stand up for the uni-brow...
"You should have two"?! Really? "Should"? I was born to have the eyebrows I have, plus tweaking out bits from the middle not only hurts; but makes it look 'un-natural'...
Why should I have to put myself through that just to meet someone else's "standards"? It's who I am that counts, isn't it? I can still 'look good' with a natural brow ;-)
Looking at luscious pears and thinking of fine firm breasts has an objectifying aspect to it even if the denial of subjectivity, the interchangeable aspect, and the assumed violability is poetic in nature. That is, if we assume this an extreme example of objectifying for comedic effect, then it is accurate enough in suggesting how tits can be seen as mere tools, as a "fruit" for our pleasure & plucking -- apart from dealing with that other human stuff.
True, the word ,,objectification,, does not have to be sexual or concern interaction between the sexes, but when it is not we tend to use other words, like ,,dehumanize,, (eg. using words to describe an ,,enemy,, to make it easier to hate them and feel less bad about killing them; words like ,,Hun,, or ,,Jap,, or ,,Illegal,, have been employed to such ends). Perhaps the fact that dehumanization is near or on par with objectification might help some understand the severity of the offense. One ca
I certainly agree with you that "objectification" is an overused term, and your definition is consistent. As I understand it, the term "objectification" come from feminist deconstruction of media images. Images of naked women to sell merchandise objectifies women as a category, is the argument. I think you are seeing that term bleed over into other contexts.
On a related note, I have seen the most sex-tastic costumes at nerd-cons, where sexy women can wear whatever they want without fear :)
Thank you for pointing out that there is a difference between objectification & admiration, as well as objectification & expressing sexuality.
That said, I do think that women can indeed objectify themselves {although I think this mostly happens outside of expressing sexuality} and that one does not have to get physical to objectify another. Words and sometimes leering can be enough.
Expanding my thoughts of objectification: I think that it moves well out of the realm of sexuality/sexualisation. A good example is labour and how workers can be mistreated. Certain ways I think women can objectify themselves is by thinking that it is their place to be breeding stock and to obey men, or that they deserve to be abused, or that their only worth is how they look, or how much $ they have, et. al.
@Divinity33372, great vid, as always, Div! I see one problem, though: you make objectification be too 'clear' and 'firm', 'set in stone'. I think it's also largely cultural. Example: you say you don't mind if men look at you, but you do if they grab your ass. Well, a different culture might say (that's what America seems to be turning into) that looking is as disrespectful (and therefore as objectifying) as ass-grabbing. And another culture might consider ass-grabbing as rather playful.
@Asehpe (CONT) So what I thought once was that the basis of 'objectification' is simply DISRESPECT, i.e. failing to treat someone in the way that humans are supposed to treat each other. HOW this disrespect is expressed -- whether looking appreciatively at someone's body, or touching said body, already constitutes disrespect -- depends on the cultural EXPECTATIONS about how people should show proper respect for each other. And this varies from culture to culture.
(CONT). In my country, Brazil, for instance, men are SUPPOSED to pay more obvious attention to women's bodies (by looking, whistling, making comments, etc.) than in America -- women may get sad or slightly offended if they don't "turn men's heads". In America, however, things like the "elevator look" are already supposed to be 'inherently' disrespectful. (This can be sometimes quite bewildering to Brazilians in America, both men and women, by the way.)
(CONT & END) So, Div, I wonder if "objectification" doesn't in the end boil down to "extreme disrespect" (ignoring a person's humanity) AS SEEN BY a specific culture -- and therefore not so much a "natural phenomenon" as a cultural one. And one in which mistakes happen: guys who meant to be simply appreciative are mistaken for disrespectful (because of cultural and/or personality differences), which is a problem with "objectification" being such an important issue in America. What do you think?
makes sense to me, but then I am a man that wishes more women would stop trying to shame me for finding them attractive, its totally instinctual, it happens before i even think about it, but should I be ashamed of it? No, because its also not harmful
I still see her as human and talk to girls with respect and maturity all the time, whether I find them attractive or not
Though its worse when men are shaming each other so that they can feel normal in a society that tells them to be ashamed
Pedantic quibble: I think the pears might be "animate." Animate only means alive, and the pears are alive.
On the other hand, we seldom use that word to describe plants. Its roots come from the one of the latin words for "soul," and no one but an "animist" thinks trees have souls.
I wonder where being blown away by the presence of a woman fits into this objectification issue. This has happened a few times with me, but I have mostly noticed this in my friends who are apparently put into shock mainly by her beauty and presence but also by the point she is with mere me. In a way this seems like the opposite to objectification, since in this case it is losing the sense of self and reality to become caught up in "another world" of complete confusing subjectivity.
The people who are most guilty of objectifying me are radical feminists. They are the one's who flatten my sexuality and make logical leaps declaring that men I've slept with have no respect for me. I agree that context is a big deal, having someone politely approach me is a world of difference then a guy grabbing my or making derogatory comments about me.
To make another analogy - the Nazis objectified/dehumanised Jewish people, if a Jewish man in Nazi Germany went out dressed in a prayer shawl, beard etc - would he therefore be objectifying himself? If he was harrased by a Nazi would he have been asking for it? Of course not. It's ridiculous that you have to explain this!
Antis are completely devoid of nuance, they like to brand this stupidity as 'radical'. Until everyone is an unhappy asexual robot they'll cry oppression, meanwhile they're all too happy to demonize women who aren't in complete agreement with their insane position often spurring on the mindset that causes the inequality in the first place.
I think it made sense, I just also feel that guys who act shabby to women who are looking a little ragged is because (or maybe it's just me) men find that a big turn on
Sometimes it's like flirting with a woman at a yard sale, it's not meant to be condecending or degrading, it's meant to be a little hillbilly and if your both playing the game, it's fun
That's the cat n mouse of it but the unwritten rule is you have to see some intrest in the woman if it's just to flirt or afternoon delight
If you Google "Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Feminist Perspectives on Objectification" you'll find that feminists have been unable to define objectification themselves... "it turns out to be ‘slippery’ and ‘multiple’" and they only hope to define it in the future.
While I do agree with the general point of this video, I do wonder what you consider to be the ethical difference between giving a woman the eye and... 9:45? Is it that the latter is less subtle than the former? That doesn't sound convincing to me.
Note that I'm not saying that the latter is appropriate, just looking for what you think is the difference here.
Shezmu 5 months ago
is it ok if man asks a woman he hasn't met for permission to grab her ass.
is it wrong for a guy to to say to woman he hasn't met that he likes her tits.
how well does a guy need to know a girl before it's ok to start to talk about sex. Vile gesture with the tongue is vile only because christian society tells us that sex is vile. Maybe aggressiveness comes from men not getting distinction btween objectification&attraction,&feeling angry;learning it's not nice to objectify,but nice finish last.
jffryh 6 months ago
men accuse women of objectifying themselves only sarcasticly to point out how objectification is a stupid concept. Men don't accuse other men of objectifying themselves because men don't complain about being objectified.
catch 22: Can't appreciate a woman's thoughts&feelings until you get her to talk to you, with only appearance to go on, can't talk about appearance 'cause objectification. If platonic reason to talk, business only
Only thing that matters is climate change
/watch?v=xnOSgQSF-o4
jffryh 6 months ago
Very good video.
As a guy you experience this so rarely, and girls appear to try to get your attention, in a way presenting themselves, rather than looking like they plan to devour you. The only times I experienced that uncomfortable objectification was in the presence of the occasional greasy gay man with an "odd" smile on his face. It allows one to relate to what some women talk about; not a good feeling.
p.s. The way you say "that bothers me" at 9:50 reminds me of Richard Feynman :P
HiAdrian 6 months ago
I'm a little confused. I agree with the stance, but not with the argument used to justify it in this case.
Your argument is that grabbing your ass shows little regard for how you might think/feel and that they are unaware of your consent. On the flip side, what if I don't wish to be looked at sexually? What if that upsets me? You can't say, "well it's based on my discretion", because that's too flimsy.
m0ufin 6 months ago
@m0ufin - I'd say that grabbing a person's ass is a hell of a different thing entirely from merely looking at a person. It's valid to take issue with unwanted touching, it is invalid, not to mention insane, to have a problem with someone merely looking at you, even if they are committing the disgusting act of having sexual thoughts of you.
Shezmu 5 months ago
Quick side note. Pears are actually animate. They are made of living matter. ;)
Arikiel 6 months ago
Thank you, thank you, thank you!! It's about time that somebody tells people to stop overusing the word! ^__^
gir908922 6 months ago
@gir908922 Another point that should be brought up is that porn and media don't "objectify" us, either. Objectification happens in the mind of the person doing it. Media products don't have a mind, so they can't "objectify" anybody.
gir908922 6 months ago
this is a perfect video My friend. I shall save it and send it when I think it might help bring about understanding.
bikemessenger7 6 months ago
Sorry, Divinity - despite agreeing with *everything you have to say here regards the actual topic (objectification), I have to stand up for the uni-brow...
"You should have two"?! Really? "Should"? I was born to have the eyebrows I have, plus tweaking out bits from the middle not only hurts; but makes it look 'un-natural'...
Why should I have to put myself through that just to meet someone else's "standards"? It's who I am that counts, isn't it? I can still 'look good' with a natural brow ;-)
BrianJ1962 6 months ago
Looking at luscious pears and thinking of fine firm breasts has an objectifying aspect to it even if the denial of subjectivity, the interchangeable aspect, and the assumed violability is poetic in nature. That is, if we assume this an extreme example of objectifying for comedic effect, then it is accurate enough in suggesting how tits can be seen as mere tools, as a "fruit" for our pleasure & plucking -- apart from dealing with that other human stuff.
gedgetips 6 months ago
True, the word ,,objectification,, does not have to be sexual or concern interaction between the sexes, but when it is not we tend to use other words, like ,,dehumanize,, (eg. using words to describe an ,,enemy,, to make it easier to hate them and feel less bad about killing them; words like ,,Hun,, or ,,Jap,, or ,,Illegal,, have been employed to such ends). Perhaps the fact that dehumanization is near or on par with objectification might help some understand the severity of the offense. One ca
davetoepfer 6 months ago
I certainly agree with you that "objectification" is an overused term, and your definition is consistent. As I understand it, the term "objectification" come from feminist deconstruction of media images. Images of naked women to sell merchandise objectifies women as a category, is the argument. I think you are seeing that term bleed over into other contexts.
On a related note, I have seen the most sex-tastic costumes at nerd-cons, where sexy women can wear whatever they want without fear :)
Friendough 6 months ago
Thank you for pointing out that there is a difference between objectification & admiration, as well as objectification & expressing sexuality.
That said, I do think that women can indeed objectify themselves {although I think this mostly happens outside of expressing sexuality} and that one does not have to get physical to objectify another. Words and sometimes leering can be enough.
:)
Laurel
YeOldeHeretic 6 months ago
Expanding my thoughts of objectification: I think that it moves well out of the realm of sexuality/sexualisation. A good example is labour and how workers can be mistreated. Certain ways I think women can objectify themselves is by thinking that it is their place to be breeding stock and to obey men, or that they deserve to be abused, or that their only worth is how they look, or how much $ they have, et. al.
Hope that made sense.
Laurel
YeOldeHeretic 6 months ago
Only a handful of reasons I bother logging on here anymore and this channel is one of those reasons. Favorited.
Sarahon06 6 months ago 3
@Sarahon06 Aw, thanks. That means a lot to me luv.
Divinity33372 6 months ago
@Divinity33372, great vid, as always, Div! I see one problem, though: you make objectification be too 'clear' and 'firm', 'set in stone'. I think it's also largely cultural. Example: you say you don't mind if men look at you, but you do if they grab your ass. Well, a different culture might say (that's what America seems to be turning into) that looking is as disrespectful (and therefore as objectifying) as ass-grabbing. And another culture might consider ass-grabbing as rather playful.
Asehpe 6 months ago
@Asehpe (CONT) So what I thought once was that the basis of 'objectification' is simply DISRESPECT, i.e. failing to treat someone in the way that humans are supposed to treat each other. HOW this disrespect is expressed -- whether looking appreciatively at someone's body, or touching said body, already constitutes disrespect -- depends on the cultural EXPECTATIONS about how people should show proper respect for each other. And this varies from culture to culture.
Asehpe 6 months ago
(CONT). In my country, Brazil, for instance, men are SUPPOSED to pay more obvious attention to women's bodies (by looking, whistling, making comments, etc.) than in America -- women may get sad or slightly offended if they don't "turn men's heads". In America, however, things like the "elevator look" are already supposed to be 'inherently' disrespectful. (This can be sometimes quite bewildering to Brazilians in America, both men and women, by the way.)
Asehpe 6 months ago
(CONT & END) So, Div, I wonder if "objectification" doesn't in the end boil down to "extreme disrespect" (ignoring a person's humanity) AS SEEN BY a specific culture -- and therefore not so much a "natural phenomenon" as a cultural one. And one in which mistakes happen: guys who meant to be simply appreciative are mistaken for disrespectful (because of cultural and/or personality differences), which is a problem with "objectification" being such an important issue in America. What do you think?
Asehpe 6 months ago
makes sense to me, but then I am a man that wishes more women would stop trying to shame me for finding them attractive, its totally instinctual, it happens before i even think about it, but should I be ashamed of it? No, because its also not harmful
I still see her as human and talk to girls with respect and maturity all the time, whether I find them attractive or not
Though its worse when men are shaming each other so that they can feel normal in a society that tells them to be ashamed
waltermh111 6 months ago
Pedantic quibble: I think the pears might be "animate." Animate only means alive, and the pears are alive.
On the other hand, we seldom use that word to describe plants. Its roots come from the one of the latin words for "soul," and no one but an "animist" thinks trees have souls.
As for the rest, you seem pretty sensible...
ThePeaceableKingdom 6 months ago
@bretny4 <-- mickGPN troll is trollin again. Lets see how many sock accounts he has.
Divinity33372 6 months ago
I thought my mind could only be blown a certain(sp???) amount of times, but now its plus one.
TheViolentBuddha 6 months ago
@observation222 You're not going to derail the subject of this video and this thread by injecting old dramas into it.
Divinity33372 6 months ago
I wonder where being blown away by the presence of a woman fits into this objectification issue. This has happened a few times with me, but I have mostly noticed this in my friends who are apparently put into shock mainly by her beauty and presence but also by the point she is with mere me. In a way this seems like the opposite to objectification, since in this case it is losing the sense of self and reality to become caught up in "another world" of complete confusing subjectivity.
gedgetips 6 months ago
I will try VERY hard to never look at you like 9:45
godshiva 6 months ago
Spot on, Div. Thanks for this video.
SiriusMined 6 months ago
It makes sense to me. The filter makes that @9:47 look really funny btw.
thethegreenmachine 6 months ago 5
another great video, i was just wondering who im gonna put on my 'top tuberz' list to replace happy cabbie, you made the decision for me :)
detr1mentalist 6 months ago
The people who are most guilty of objectifying me are radical feminists. They are the one's who flatten my sexuality and make logical leaps declaring that men I've slept with have no respect for me. I agree that context is a big deal, having someone politely approach me is a world of difference then a guy grabbing my or making derogatory comments about me.
KrissytheWorldWithin 6 months ago 2
To make another analogy - the Nazis objectified/dehumanised Jewish people, if a Jewish man in Nazi Germany went out dressed in a prayer shawl, beard etc - would he therefore be objectifying himself? If he was harrased by a Nazi would he have been asking for it? Of course not. It's ridiculous that you have to explain this!
trifelgeputinage 6 months ago
Antis are completely devoid of nuance, they like to brand this stupidity as 'radical'. Until everyone is an unhappy asexual robot they'll cry oppression, meanwhile they're all too happy to demonize women who aren't in complete agreement with their insane position often spurring on the mindset that causes the inequality in the first place.
PaulBlank85 6 months ago
I think it made sense, I just also feel that guys who act shabby to women who are looking a little ragged is because (or maybe it's just me) men find that a big turn on
Sometimes it's like flirting with a woman at a yard sale, it's not meant to be condecending or degrading, it's meant to be a little hillbilly and if your both playing the game, it's fun
That's the cat n mouse of it but the unwritten rule is you have to see some intrest in the woman if it's just to flirt or afternoon delight
Curas1 6 months ago
@Curas1
In this day n age though, it's a dying trend because of safety and all the social awareness now.
I can remember when things were different, or maybe I was just younger ...
Curas1 6 months ago
If you Google "Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Feminist Perspectives on Objectification" you'll find that feminists have been unable to define objectification themselves... "it turns out to be ‘slippery’ and ‘multiple’" and they only hope to define it in the future.
zarkoff45 6 months ago
*Bows to your feet.* Why do I feel the strong urge to buy you dinner and sit with you and talk for FOREVER?! :)
SickMouth 6 months ago 9
Eyebrows are so divisive, accept the unibrow as one!
Coquipirate 6 months ago