Also, evolution is not a doctrine, it is a rational explanation on how life changes over time... so to say "Well if you believe in evolution, you should be trying to further it" is simply assumed. Also, if you knew anything about evolution, we have reached a point in human history where we are no longer subject to such environmental constraints that further evolution anyway, (being the apex species on the planet.) But keep up the videos! It's helping show how truly stupid fundamentalism is.
It is rare that we find someone as thoroughly stupid as you on youtube. Thank you, you are pushing more people from blind religion than any athiets ever could. I think you need to revisit the definition of athiesm before you lump anyone who doesn't believe in a god into a giant belief system category. Also, your prime argument is horribly flawed; by helping the poor with things such as healthcare and education you actually lower birth rates in those demographics, and that is no secret.
Hey atheists! I'm an atheist too & I am pissed off that I was not invited to the meeting where we all decided that we will only do good if it benefit us as individuals. No one told me that I am not supposed to have empathy for other humans. I almost felt bad & helped a homeless woman eat today if it weren't for this theist taking his time out to define who I am. Thanks theist guy. Ill be more careful to fit in to your idea of what I am.
First ten seconds: There is no objective morality. However, if we can agree on a common subjective morality, then we can make objective rules to follow it.
well good is just a word human don't do good we just follow the laws thats it and most of us like to have freedom so we don't break them. there you go i just fix this vid
p.s. if we worked together better we could grow more, if we keep creating and creating and creating then we could get plants to keep creating and creating and creating. also survival of the fittest is not the strongest, smarter, ect. it could be the most compatible with others, the hardest working, the most caring about others and that put others before themselves.
you are the perfect example of blind faith, atheists do good because it benefits the world we live in, if you go around acting like an ass hole people will hate you. if everyone acted like an ass hole then we wouldn't get along, not help people, and die out in the human race's early years because we wouldn't help each other.also if you only do good because you want to live in heaven forever then you care for no-one and are self-centered.
I don't feel that it will be a direct pay-back, I feel like it's a global community courtesy and helpfulness. When I help out the orphaned boy, I don't expect the boy to immediately repay my kindness, nor do I expect it from him in the future.. I just expect that people will help me when I'm in need. Same thing when I hold the door open. I expect that, one day, a stranger will hold the door open for me.
but if god told you that you must massacre people would you do it since your god told you too? Probably not because you'd find it immoral. You don't need some "higher being" telling you what's right and what's wrong. you can think for yourself and determine what is wrong and what is right.
Do you stone people to death for not believing in Islam?
If not, you are a true follower of the Quran and therefore you have no absolute morality since you decide what rules you want to follow and not to follow.
You're a very cowardly person. Instead of putting forth your ideas of what you believe to be good and evil you submit yourself to a higher power blindly. Have some courage and believe in yourself, you weakling.
Finally: evolution is not an ideal. It is the way we understand life has diversified on this planet, but it is not a prescription for action. There's no obligation for atheists to be competitive just because that's the way life has worked for a long time. In some cases we actively work against natural selection, like when we try to preserve endangered species.
For example, we won't need to fight over natural resources if we develop cheap renewable energy. We can not only give the poor money so they can survive until tomorrow, but we can make birth control and contraception more available to curb overpopulation and ease their economic situation. Many of these ideals have pervaded society so thoroughly that people don't even think about them, they are just assumed. So even if someone can't verbalize why doing good feels good, it's not baseless.
I can't speak for all atheists, but some of us do good deeds because we subscribe to ideals about the way humanity should be. Parts of these ideals date back to the earliest most primitive laws that allow a society to function: reciprocation, honesty, respect of property, etc. Others have more modern origins, such as equality, freedom, or even the pursuit of scientific knowledge to, for example, help prevent the kind of cut-throat future scenario you describe.
Lol, good doesnt decide whats evil and whats not, people do. Remember when Christianity was evil, and the romans threw them into arena's with lions ^.^
The bible promotes slavery and bashing babies heads against rocks, and I do that ALL the time. Catholics also promote cannibalising Jesus' flesh and drinking his blood. With morals like that who needs evil.
You can't define good or evil on a basis of God. I do what I believe to be good things, returning a wallet, helping someone with their homework, etc. Yet I am Atheist. It isn't God that instills Human values, it's Humans that instill Human values.
I don't go around bludgeoning children in the face with a screwdriver because I get this funny feeling that I shouldn't. Furthermore I'm glad I don't do it. I guess that means I'm a good person? No of course not, because I was TOLD not to harm people. Of course!
Please don't tell me to do anything bad oh almighty indoctrinators x[
"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its' imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."
Even thinking that you wanted another ruling is going against your god's word. Or is it ok because your god made you to want another ruling, even though your god gave you another.
Hey Sami, can you explain to me why there are 10% of the US population are atheists, but only 0.21% of prison inmates are atheist? Chew on those numbers a bit. They may not be exact TODAY as you read this, but I'm quite certain they're pretty damn close. Religious morals eh?
I do good because a man who married a 9 year old girl rode on a flying horse and wrote a book that god told him to write. Funny thing is, this book preaches a lot of things that aren't good so its kind of funny that my whole basis of why I should do good comes from a book that tells me to do things that aren't good.
On a side note....Im sue this guy in the video is a hit with all the ladies.
We DO have a reason to do good and help people: Because we are humans! We feel compassion with other humans, of a kind we don´t feel for other animals. Just as other animals feel compassion withing their own species. When I see a person in pain, I feel bad and want to help. It´s because I´m a human, and as a human it´s in my interest to preserve and secure the survival and well being of my fellow people.
1: Your viewpoint is not objective. It´s based on the assumption of god according to your idea.
2: Maybe my acctions to save a poor person will not be repayed from that person, but thet´s not the point. The point is that I want people to help me when I´m in need, therefore I do the same thing to others.
3: Why do I help poor people? BECAUSE IT FEELS GOOD! Not because anyone tells me to, because I´ll be puniced if I don´t: I do it because it´s the right thing to to. Ever heard of conscience?
Have you actually read Dawkins? For fuck sakes. No. Just, no. He doesn't advocate the notion that people only help one another in order to receive a favour in return. In fact, he explicitly says in Memes: the new replicators that we transcend our genes and we act altruistically. It's bad enough that you're an obnoxious, credulous theist with low standards of evidence, but it's even worse that you misrepresent the views of others in doing so. Buck up.
you realize you are retarded and that you just accepted you are nothing but a mere puppet? i dont need god as a reason for justice, you saying that just prove you are as bad as it can get. Every nation has had some kind of justice so humans can life at more closely to peace as possible. we are rational people and we know pain and suffering, and we have emotions, that is what make us feel compasion,not being a simple robot, you disgust me. you should kill yourself, you make more bad than good.
i help poor people because one day i might be poor and need help. you're arguing against solipsism, not atheism. also, atheism is not a religion. not all atheists are materialists or believe in the scientific paradigm. atheism is a lack of belief. a lack of belief is different from a belief in lack.
God, you make a lot of videos. You must really be trying to validate your beliefs. Are they so fragile? The atheists generally aren't encroaching on your beliefs, so stop putting them out there.
On another note, all that shit you say at the end is totally made-up. There is no evidence that such a situation is advantageous. There IS strong evidence that a species whose individuals work together thrive together.
OH, but doing good *IS* in your hands because you should also believe that god gave you free will.
Atheists do good because we just aren't inherently assholes. Atheists do things that make them feel good just like theists. I'm not saying Christians are assholes, but being good in the name of religion and to get to heaven is a selfish act.
We have a materialistic need to help people because it materialistically, physiologically feels good. We don't need to feel like a vessel to some God.
We have evolved inner 'guidelines' to drive these acts because they have benefitted our survival to this point. We don't calculate each instance out before doing it, We just do it.
I do good because I have evolved to do good for the benefit of my family and extended family (ultimately extended to the whole population of the world) and therefore for the benefit of myself.
You do good because you fear what will happen when you die if you don't.
I feel much better about why I do good than I would if I did it for your reasons.
You talk about examining the reasons for each act of good and calculating the chances of a return but this is not how it works.
You say, "god gives objective morality", it should have no dependance on god. How is morality a fact without depending on a god? God's morality is as subjective as anyone's morals? If resources are finite, poor people should die to ensure survival of the species? There are better measures for population control than letting people die: ie. one-child policy. I believe in charity because of compassion and that a one-child policy is necessary to ensure survival.
@Bourtini One critique is that letting people die is more effective in this moment than waiting for the right policies for population control to pass, yet, I do not agree the death of others for a better ensured survival is moral since us humans are bound for extinction whether I give to charity or not. Note: mutual aid is the example I've presented (via policy), competition is not always beneficial to survival, but mutual aid is.
1. god says it, therefore it is moral or 2. It is moral therefore god says it. The first option can not be true because god has commanded the killing of certain races, children etc. If god knows what is right and commands that, obviously morality exists outside of god and is attainable by anyone via reason and empathy.
1. god says it, therefore it is moral or 2. It is moral therefore god says it. The first option can not be true because god has commanded the killing of certain races, children etc. If god knows what is right and commands that, obviously morality exists outside of god and is attainable by anyone via reason and empathy.
I do good to avoid that my kind will end up in a dystopian world without trust. I like rainbows and unicorns, and if I neglected common trust those would die out.
I have no doubt you are listening to a godlike voice saying what goes and what doesn't. The inherent problem with that is your God does not exist, like the rest. Most people with their feet planted firmly on the ground are that way because they are exempt form the mystical deities and mysterious voices abound in their head. Religion is a crutch for the gullible that must be aggressively defended. BTW, nobody is listening except some of your own. I gave as much time as the 400 characters typed.
This guy couldn't argue his way out of a wet paper bag. Pure garbage sir. Do NOT ever say objective when your argument is nothing but SUBJECTIVE. Fucking dolt.
Don't say objective. You embarrass yourself when you do. Take on something else because you obviously aren't intelligent enough to tackle this. Try knitting, I've heard its therapeutic.
@SamiZaatari you are a real paradox first you talk about free will the you talk about submiting you're will to god man get over you're self and live you're life
I'll admit it. I have somewhat optimistic views of humanity, but you've really changed my mind. I had to smile at your use of the word "objective" - you REALLY need an education beyond the narrow-minded religious education you appear to have received. There is nothing objective about religion beyond narrow nominal facts (i.e. names and numbers). Atheism is an absence of belief and nothing more - how can this be be (yes, objectively)equated with anything other than a free mind open to enquiry?
@Mark777X what is this, friends?! are you joey? just because you get a good feeling from doing something good doesn't mean you simply do it because you wanted to feel good, the reason why you feel good is because you did something good. it's very easy to prove an unselfish act, if you see a lady getting raped, will you not intervene? and do you expect me to believe that the only reason you intervene is because you want to feel better about yourself rather than because it's the right thing to do?
@SamiZaatari If a woman is getting raped, an atheist does it to save the woman. A Theist does it to please their invisible god so they can be showered with praises when they die... Yes it feels good to do good things. Atheists understand morality whereas theists follow it blindly..
@SamiZaatari the reason why you feel good is because of the increased release of dopamine in the brainreceptors you ignorant twat, but then again, you have never met science so how could you know huh?
@Mark777X secondly, what about people who give their lives for a cause, that's a very unselfish act, when someone gives their life to save someone else etc, that is a very very unselfish act as you are literally giving your life up. or how about people who literally give up everything to help others, they don't get a good life of pleasure, they rather go through hardship and give up an easy good life just to help others, that's very unselfish.
@Mark777X and in conclusion, i strongly disagree with you that we simply help others for our own selfish desires, to feel better, i don't believe that in the least, you can't tell me how i feel or why i do what i do when i know why i do it, when i help poor people i don't do it to feel good for myself, i do it because i believe it's the right thing to do, as they are poor people, and they need help, while i am living good so i should help them out as it's the right thing to do, thats what i feel
I do follow you however, the key is in the “I” do it because “I” believe it’s the right thing to do so it follows that “you want” to do the right thing
Its always about what “you want”
If I threw myself on a grenade it would be because I loved my comrades and I want to save them
it begins and ends in what “I want”
I save the lady because “I” feel terrible so I fix my pain by saving her
Its a bitter pill to swallow when first encountered but liberating when assimilated
@Mark777X well many people do good things even when they don't want to, many people gave their lives for comrades and fought for a good cause even though they really didn't want to.
Yet, you do good because you want some divine being to smile down upon you and give you the thumbs-up approval. That's the corrupting idea of religion: doing 'good' because it pleases God. That's not moral, that's obedience to authority.
@Mark777X ~ You are wrong. I know this from your own argument. I have done good (only a few times) for the sake of good itself, when I knew it would come back on me in a bad way. Higher ethics do not wish to be repayed evil for good, but do this anyway because of a non-pleasurable understanding that ones version of right supercedes ones desire for pleasure. I take no pleasure in being punished for doing good.
@Mark777X ~ My introspection shows that I hate my own death less than I hate what I know is evil. Do you "support the troops"? If you do, then you do not understand Self-sacrifice? Soldiers, "Theist" or "Atheist" are willing to lose their lives (and don't have a death wish) for what they believe is right. To kill and to die for ones values is a form of righteousness.
“for the sake of good itself” then it must follow that “you want” to do good for the sake of good itself so you are just selfishly doing what you want to do even if it ends in you knowingly getting your fingers burnt
Anyone willing to lose their lives for what they believe is right has a self serving motive.
Its not hard to see that “they want” to do the right thing… maybe even more than “they want” to live
love remains untarnished (if you know how to look)
@Mark777X ~ Read about Selfish Gene Theory. It explains why altruism is real to the individual, and is not self-serving, but serves the genes. This cannot be proven, but it's a good theory that opens up a lot. Actually, get into Evolutionary Psychology, 'cause it uses parts of Selfish Gene Theory to give a good theory on how people can be genuinely altruistic, even if in a limited way.
@Mark777X ~ The whole thing here is that we have different assumption about "Self". Thus argument would be pointless are our Premises are different. We can get as logical as we want and still not change each other's minds.
If you point to those different assumptions I might be with you
The part of me that feels like it makes choices can do nothing but self serve
(unless you show me the error of my ways)
I don’t wish to speak to Dawkins by proxy, I was responding to your objection If you have assimilated a concept that I am unaware of, you could just express my error to the point, if its beyond your ability to do so im not sure by what mechanism you would think I was wrong in the first place
@Mark777X ~ The Mechanism is Evolutionary Psychology relating the Selfish Gene Theory. I'm not into spending hours and hours getting References to give evidence where I see no point.
Okay, key words: Kin-Selection (the one that says some altruism is real, but limited), Reciprocal Altruism and Indirect Reciprocity (the two that say that some "altruism is self serving as you say).
I've just realised that we are both right, depending on what concepts we use.
I am an atheist, and I actually like to watch this guy's vids. He addresses a lot of interesting points, and at least attempts to approach them in an intelligent and relatively objective fashion. You could do a lot worse is what I'm saying.
Is it still good if you're doing it for the greatest imaginable figurative doggy treat, as well as in fear of the the most incredibly uncomfortable figurative rolled up newspaper?
So, in summary, the religeous help people in order to obtain gifts from God, not because you simply want to do it. Meanwhile, when an atheist does something good, they do it for no expected reward and even go against their own self-interests to do so.
You just conceeded the fact that Atheists are more devout than the religious.
I do it out of selfishness. I help others to feel good about myself. When I do good I get a happy feeling inside me. I take advantage of other people by helping them to boost my own ego! Then later on I meet up with my other atheist friends and brag to them that I am so much better than them!
There's nothing worse than a complete moron who believe themselves to be intelligent arrogantly flaunting their moronic ideals to everyone in an attempt to defend their own stupidity.
Why do we do good? Because we do it out of real kindness, not selfish ignorant fear of spending an eternity being tortured, and would much rather go to happy marshmallow phunland where you can get your rims polished by hot blondes with wings and nice tits.
So hang on, you think that atheists only do good for a reward?
Isn't that what theists do? You know, do good, believe in god and you will be rewarded in the afterlife? In fact, in most religions it is the belief in a god itself that will guarantee you passage to the afterlife. So basically, you could do whatever you wanted, and believe in god and at some point repent and you will have your big reward.
I get the sense that atheists displaying empathy and altruism is a source of frustration to you.
Why do atheists do charitable acts? How dare they show compassion when ethics are derived only from the sky?
Does the fact that many atheists call themselves 'Humanist' give you any clues? Charitable works done in the hope of eternal paradise is anything but altruistic. It's distasteful,ungenerous and self-seeking.
a thinking being, with empathy for others might look at a situation and say, "Hey, If I help Bill today, maybe next month Bill will help me" Consider it self-interest in terms of Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
'Survival of the fittest' is a natural mechanism not a moral guideline. It's the best explanation of how we have come about but it's not a way to build a society if you want to live happily in it.
I think you've misunderstood what Richard Dawkins was saying. I'm sure he was trying to explain how these selfless emotions could have come about through natural selection. He was not referring to his moral standpoints. We, humans, are empathetic creatures and help others out because it makes us feel good or less bad. It's an emotional, instinctive response in both theists and atheists. You use religion to justify you standpoints, and atheist must use other arguments.
Unlike religion, no atheist at any time has inflicted harm on another human being in the 'name of atheism'. However, many millions have been killed, mamed, or tortured in the name of some god, refusing to believe in that god, or refusing to swtich from the god they now believe in, to the one being rammed up their ass with the sword by the people who think their god is the only god.
Why do atheists do good? hmmmm.... I forget now...
Sir, your argument is put forward with the assumption that there is no valid moral argument from an Atheist perspective because we lack a God. You disregard the fact that if your God (or more likely their earthly rep) said you should start killing off people to save the world from overpopulation than you would have to follow that command without question and therefore would be the one without a basis to argue. A Realist on the other hand would be able to argue from many, varied points of view.
Additionally, we have surpassed the very vulgar morality mentioned in "holy" scripture aeons ago. Need I mention pedophilia, slavery, stonings and the likes? If you honestly followed the morality guidelines of your "holy" book, I am absolutely certain that you would act very differently from what you actually do in real life. There is a reason that most religious people act very differently from what their scripture demands they do. Scripture morality is archaic, savage and severely outdated.
@alexanderalexandrou people used to cover their mouths when yawning, so that no bad spirits can enter their bodies through their mouths. And draining blood was the #1 answer any doctor had. Clearly stupid and wrong by today's standards of science, right? So why do we consider it stupid? Because unlike religion, science EVOLVES by questioning itself and CORRECTING ITS ERRORS. Something that Theists are INCAPABLE of doing, even after CENTURIES of lies and mistakes. All in the name of Ignorance. :)
Is there no stone you left unturned when coming up with these arguments against atheists? Your arguments are like a "worst of" collection of religious apologetics. Coming from a psychology background myself, I would highly suggest reading up on empathy because humans, and not only humans, have it. Social species need to promote well-being in their social environment in order to thrive as individuals. It is partially self-serving and I have no problem with that, unlike you. It is what it is.
@alexanderalexandrou an EGOIST or SOCIOPATH knows no boundaries to his egoism. A EGOCENTRIC sees his well-being as the main engine behind his acts. So a EGOIST father won't care about his children, if they are fed, healthy or educated. An EGOCENTRIC will see his offspring as PART of his own "satisfaction", as part of his "happiness". So his children happiness, is his happiness.........now a Muslim, a Christian or an Atheist parent will give You the same answer. So, why do they "do good"? :)
@HuntingGoodWill Sociopathy or psychopathy are diagnosable mental health pathologies, with genetic roots and environmental factors that influence their onset. We don't judge average human behavior based on such individuals as they are a tiny minority. Just wanted to add that. As for the rest, I think you put what I was trying to say in better words very successfully and we are in agreement. I can't see why it's so hard for some people to understand why we do good without gods
HEY! 90% of ppl nowadays are born with a reasonable moral compass. A set of "built-in" values that develops as we age.
The foundation for this of course is EVOLUTION. A simple (incomplete mind you) way of explaining it would be as follows:
Those without morals are more likely to create conflict. Those who are more likely to create conflict are more likely to die in said conflict. Those who die, well, can't reproduce. Thus leaving only the peaceful and moral ppl alive to pass on their genes.
Ok look. "survival of the fittest" when we are discussing evolution talks about what happens naturally in the animal kingdom (yes including us). BUT, majority of animals, not all, do not operate on a moral and conscious plane. They operate with limited consciousness, sub-consciously learned habits, and instinct. And, that instinct is to do one thing: CONTINUE THE SPECIES. This means survival and reproducing. Survival of the fittest causes evolution because if you can out-compete, you survive.
The only thing we all have in common is the first person perspective, which is actually a singular experience. This is where good and bad comes from. Each persons idea of these opposing forces will be different. When we incorporate all the experiences with the history of civilizations, we have a massive conglomerate of teachings to sift through and create what is best for the individual and for society. That is how moral code is determined.
@Athletictrainer09 The assumption that personal gain is the motivation is wrong. As an atheist, I also believe in something greater. By helping a person that is poor or in need, you are bettering their quality of life and reducing suffering. Evil is doing harm to others on both the individual and societal levels. Helping lift someone from destitution is the hope that that person or group will go on to help others.
@Athletictrainer09 The fact that we are overpopulating is the result of familial gain over societal health. The progress toward helping whomever you can is a separate issue from whether is is morally right to knowingly expand our population in this way. If we take a step back as a society we know this to be true. This is where the personal responsibility to address these manners in the proper order comes into play. To breed or to help those in need that are already here first.
A last thing on why we do good. We do good because it's beneficial to society, and what benefits our society helps our species progress which in turn helps our species survive. I can't speak for all atheists but the way I see it, we (humans) are all in this together. We all contribute to the progress of our species on some level. And more than ever we need to get away from thinking "How does this benefit me" and start thinking "How does this benefit us".
The problem of overpopulation and dwindling resources wont be solved by simply letting the poor people die or something. That homeless guy on the side of the road doesn't use gas because he doesn't have car. He doesn't use electricity because he doesn't have a home. He creates less waste and uses fewer resources than other people because he cant. We could let all the unfortunate and homeless people on the planet die and it wouldn't help our planets problems at all. Theres no reason not to help.
Morality is largely based on the society you live in, although some things have become commonplace through instinct. Humans are a community species, basically we live and work together to survive. Ancient humans (and probably pre-humans) most likely realized that when they killed someone from their "pack" or tribe it became harder to survive. This eventually led to the common rule in human populations of "Don't kill each other".
so SammiZaatari, if your God commands you to take an axe and chop a baby into bits , you will do so with a smile on your face confident that it is a good thing ?
Is cutting someone with a knife good or evil ? you can not say without knowing the situation.
is killing someone good or evil ? again , it depends
evil =/= bad there is a subtle difference
God said "kill them all but keep the virgins" is that good or evil ? would a young virgin girl actually like being "married" to a man who recently butchered her family ?
You need to be clear what you mean by God. Christian God Yaweh or muslim God Allah ?
atheists are the spawn of Satan and we do good things because it confuses the christians and muslims a lot. Thats the real and only reason.
Or it could be that as members of a society and having empathy for how we might feel in a particular circumstance we try to help people in the way we would appreciate being helped in the same situation. Gee that sounds a lot like "do unto others..." where have I heard that one ?
A good man will do good even without religion. A Bad man will do bad with or without religion. But for a good man to do bad religion is necessary.
That being said, atheists have far higher moral standards than the religious, because we have to live with our action. We dont get a "3 hail mary's and you're forgiven". Not to mention the atrocities pointed out as moral standards in the holy books.
I have yet to see a single video of you where your logic is not fundamentally flawed.
Sami, what if God told you to go and kill everyone in Florida, Sparing no one including men, women, and children because there are cult leaders there engaging in child sacrifice? Would you do that (let's assume that you would not get prosecuted because it was "God's command"). Would you kill babies and toddlers because everyone in Florida was "only doing evil continually"? I am willing to bet that you would NOT.
Humans do good the same reason they yawn when they see someone else do it ? It's because when you see someone do an action, or feel something, the same neuro-transmetter are activated in both our brains. It's the same principle for empathy. Nobody likes to see someone else suffer, since it triggers the mirror-neuron system in our brains making us "suffer" like the one suffering. That's why if you have to choose between saving an old lady or 50 featuses, you'll be enclined to save the old lady.
@ThinkerResearcher The absolute proof of what i just said is the fact that some autistic kids, born with a dysfunctional mirror-neuron system , are born without the ability (or very little) of experiencing empathy. Did god just forget to implant "good" in them ? It would be weird, woudln't it ? Well, it's explained, proven, and there is no need for god in this equation.
God is silent on sex with little girls, holding slaves, and wars of aggression, and indeed, Mohammad did all three. If your morality is objective, you condone all of these and have no place in today's world; if you do not, your morality is subjective and you are a hypocrite. (Yes, great thinkers are also guilty of these, but with subjective morality, that's no problem.)
I have genuine empathy. Apparently, you do not.
Evolution is a fact, not an ethos. Some conflate them because of YOU.
True. Atheists will anaylze society and provide the statistics but they will not take action. Example: You will move from the U.S to a very poor country, because your dollar bill is more powerful there, even when you blatanly see the suffering. Its like me interviewing poor/homeless people questioning them about their lifestyle and then not giving them anything to eat right after. Makes no sense.
If you submit yourself to whomever is in charge and you think that whatever the person in charge does is GOOD, then you too can be a nazi. And even worse, if you submit yourself to your imaginary friend, that's just giving up the reins of your own free will to some alternate piece of personality that has crept up from the recesses of your addled brain. You don't deserve the life that you think your god gave you. You've already given up on morals, ethics and reasoning. Sounds like mental suicide
The basis for helping other people is empathy. We understand how it feels to be hungry, so we try to feed those who have hunger. We understand how it feels to suffer and to experience pain, so we try to reduce suffering and reduce pain. We try to eliminate disease, create vaccines, build infrastructure and build installations that produce clean water. We do all of this from the moral standpoint of reducing harm and promoting well being. As atheists, we understand where our morals come from...US
Your version of a god is from muslim mythology from your ancient text that was written by superstitious goat herders. .I can't believe a grown man could actually believe in fairy tales. .
Since "god decides" what is good and what is evil, does that mean you have no moral objection to slavery? You think it's okay because god endorses it?
We atheists help people in order to reduce suffering; we don't like suffering and because all humans are capable of empathy we don't want our fellow creatures (that includes animals) to suffer either. Your god allows and even seems to enjoy inflicting suffering. Okay, if he thinks suffering is good we can call it good. That does't change the fact that he is a sociopath, according to the human clinical definition.
@dXoverdteqprogress first of all,as an atheist u shouldnt believe in the existence of good or evil,there r no such concepts 2 u.so y do u help pple? will u help someone knowing it will cause u big problems?if ur answer is a "yes" then ur a good person but ur not consistent with what u believe! cuz y hurt severely hurt urself 4 the sake of someone else?if ur answer is "no" than u r consistent with ur belief but ur not consistent in what u just said in ur comment
@HIMAZZZ1991 The problem with your argument is that you see everything black and white. Helping someone/or not, when it may cause harm to you does not necessarely make you a good/bad person. This is why we atheists see morality not as given, but reasoned. It was reason that abolished slavery; it was reason that stoped burning witches; etc. -- religion was (and still would be) more than happy to continue such practices. Religion has a terrible track record when it comes to morality.
@dXoverdteqprogress slavery was ended by metaphysical reason, "We are all God's children." Burning Witches (Spanish Inquisition) was stopped by Catholic rule. Otherwise there was no one strong enough at the time to change that edict. (Though of course in the 'non-Western' word this crime still goes on...)
@officialmer You can't possible think this to be true. Slavery in the US was ended by secular thinkers -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, to mention a few. The Christians in the south were more than happy to continue slavery and justify it by referring to scripture. I can't claim deep knowledge on what ended the Spanish Inquisition, but the French Revolution was a MAJOR part of it. And what started the psychopathy of burning people in the first place? -- religion. Thanks for the comment.
@dXoverdteqprogress Thomas Jefferson (a spiritual explorer) & Abraham Lincoln did not work together. Abraham Lincoln was a Non-Denominational Christian & it was he who ended slavery n the U.S. by using his Presidential power. Thomas Paine was a Deist & didn't believe n organized religion, but he believed in the truth of God found n nature. The French Revolution had nothing 2 do w/the ending of the Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish Catholic's had a change of mind & heart.
@dXoverdteqprogress no,i think my argument still stands,cuz u c ,y would u help someone or do sth conceptually good,especially if its gonna harm u or at least limit ur capacities or whatever(like slavery,y would u abandon this act?u have pple workin 4 unconditionally,increasin ur power,money n quality of life etc my question here is the "WHY?",rationally, a lot of harmful deeds r gonna make u rich 4 example so y not?! ......(to be cont.)
@HIMAZZZ1991 It is rationality that has pulled us out of moral primitivity: over time, by trial and error, the society has learned that in order to avoid suffering, ALL people must have the opportunity to seek happiness, otherwise (and this is evident in history) if one group of people is granted human rights and others aren't, the society as a whole is unhealthy and unstable. On the other hand, if you simply listen to what God says, THEN you CANNOT justify morality by reasoning.
@dXoverdteqprogress c the key point here is the moral anchor. the "y" n "y not" .u cannot really do good (rationally speaking) unless u have an objective moral anchor.if a serial killer or a rapist or a gangster steal n kill not believin in a sort of obj moral anchor (ie God,rationally speakin,God is the only obj moral anchor) ,so what's there 4that evil person 2 be blamed 4?!! if society sais pedophilia is ok then its gonna be ok!! now some atheists wont 2 bad ,good 4 them
@HIMAZZZ1991 Yes, you society CAN do good, rationally speaking. If a society allowed the rape of children such society would not survive and go extinct and only those societies that forbade it would be successful. On top of that, we have evolved a complex emotion called empathy -- the ability to imagine suffering without experiencing it. This is why (mentally) healthy people have natural aversion to rape, murder and inflicting suffering on others in general. To be continued...
@dXoverdteqprogress first of all i gotta apologize 4 that i think my comments arent relevant directly answering urs!! i thought i wrote them consecutively within a certain time frame but apparently when i saw this comment page ,it appeared that its separated by ur comments ! anyway i would be glad 2 continue this ,but sorry if i seem a bit distant for i have many things 2 do n utube is just somethin i run through.
@dXoverdteqprogress sorry 4 my grammar mistakes.what is evil?in a sense of "natural disasters"?or,killin someone?or,drinking n gamblin?what do u mean?if u mean killin someone then i say god gave us free will n thats what u get by its existence.plus,God has put mechanism 2 reduce n solve crimes of such nature,which also answers the part about gamblin n drinkin n fornication etc... (about "natural disasters" is in another comment)
@HIMAZZZ1991 You're right: I don't believe in the existence of "good" and "evil" as some "thing" out there; they are mere definitions to contrast situations. When someone kills another person and hence causes suffering to his/her family, we call the deed evil. Why? Because suffering is something undesirable by sentient creatures; they want to avoid it if possible. As for gambling and drinking, and natural disasters -- miner point; plus I'm out of space.
wh-y-the-fu-ck-are-you-spe-kin-g-l-ike-th-at? are you a retard...oh yes , you are , fuck you for wasting 10 minutes of my life. fuck you very very much.
This is very simple to answer. In a lot of mammals there exists a heard mentatlity. That taking care of your own species helps your own survival. I would direct you to out closests primate relatives who clean eachother and protect eachother. Dogs clean eacthothers wounds and hunt in packs. Now if you take that and add it our extreme evolution from primate to homosapean, its not hard to see how and why we developed morals naturally to sustaine civilization. This also inturn points to no need 4god
why would an atheist be good anyway , he is gonna die one day ! They talk here like they are the heads of charity organisations but in real life they don't give a penny
Also, evolution is not a doctrine, it is a rational explanation on how life changes over time... so to say "Well if you believe in evolution, you should be trying to further it" is simply assumed. Also, if you knew anything about evolution, we have reached a point in human history where we are no longer subject to such environmental constraints that further evolution anyway, (being the apex species on the planet.) But keep up the videos! It's helping show how truly stupid fundamentalism is.
slakey941 1 minute ago
It is rare that we find someone as thoroughly stupid as you on youtube. Thank you, you are pushing more people from blind religion than any athiets ever could. I think you need to revisit the definition of athiesm before you lump anyone who doesn't believe in a god into a giant belief system category. Also, your prime argument is horribly flawed; by helping the poor with things such as healthcare and education you actually lower birth rates in those demographics, and that is no secret.
slakey941 5 minutes ago
Hey atheists! I'm an atheist too & I am pissed off that I was not invited to the meeting where we all decided that we will only do good if it benefit us as individuals. No one told me that I am not supposed to have empathy for other humans. I almost felt bad & helped a homeless woman eat today if it weren't for this theist taking his time out to define who I am. Thanks theist guy. Ill be more careful to fit in to your idea of what I am.
88Keyz101 8 hours ago
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88Keyz101 8 hours ago
First ten seconds: There is no objective morality. However, if we can agree on a common subjective morality, then we can make objective rules to follow it.
Daviso452 1 day ago
well good is just a word human don't do good we just follow the laws thats it and most of us like to have freedom so we don't break them. there you go i just fix this vid
biolinkstudios 1 day ago
p.s. if we worked together better we could grow more, if we keep creating and creating and creating then we could get plants to keep creating and creating and creating. also survival of the fittest is not the strongest, smarter, ect. it could be the most compatible with others, the hardest working, the most caring about others and that put others before themselves.
taylan637 2 days ago
you are the perfect example of blind faith, atheists do good because it benefits the world we live in, if you go around acting like an ass hole people will hate you. if everyone acted like an ass hole then we wouldn't get along, not help people, and die out in the human race's early years because we wouldn't help each other.also if you only do good because you want to live in heaven forever then you care for no-one and are self-centered.
taylan637 2 days ago
I don't feel that it will be a direct pay-back, I feel like it's a global community courtesy and helpfulness. When I help out the orphaned boy, I don't expect the boy to immediately repay my kindness, nor do I expect it from him in the future.. I just expect that people will help me when I'm in need. Same thing when I hold the door open. I expect that, one day, a stranger will hold the door open for me.
NukedWaffle 2 days ago
@SamiZaatari You know good from evil based on your own morals. Everyone's morals are different.
MaRTiiaNN 2 days ago
So basically you can't take responsibility for your own life and morality and you're God's slave. Check.
relmneiko 2 days ago
but if god told you that you must massacre people would you do it since your god told you too? Probably not because you'd find it immoral. You don't need some "higher being" telling you what's right and what's wrong. you can think for yourself and determine what is wrong and what is right.
supermonkey5294 3 days ago
Do you stone people to death for not believing in Islam?
If not, you are a true follower of the Quran and therefore you have no absolute morality since you decide what rules you want to follow and not to follow.
Enoxation 3 days ago
Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.
Seaworldexists 4 days ago
There is only one commandment needed. "Thou shalt not be a shit." Only an imbecile needs a god to tell them that.
Daz555Daz 4 days ago
You're a very cowardly person. Instead of putting forth your ideas of what you believe to be good and evil you submit yourself to a higher power blindly. Have some courage and believe in yourself, you weakling.
VitalSigns1 4 days ago 11
Your glasses, eyebrows, and moustache all look fake, like you put them on your face to be someone you're not. Are you a troll account?
VitalSigns1 4 days ago
Finally: evolution is not an ideal. It is the way we understand life has diversified on this planet, but it is not a prescription for action. There's no obligation for atheists to be competitive just because that's the way life has worked for a long time. In some cases we actively work against natural selection, like when we try to preserve endangered species.
broodfood 4 days ago
For example, we won't need to fight over natural resources if we develop cheap renewable energy. We can not only give the poor money so they can survive until tomorrow, but we can make birth control and contraception more available to curb overpopulation and ease their economic situation. Many of these ideals have pervaded society so thoroughly that people don't even think about them, they are just assumed. So even if someone can't verbalize why doing good feels good, it's not baseless.
broodfood 4 days ago
I can't speak for all atheists, but some of us do good deeds because we subscribe to ideals about the way humanity should be. Parts of these ideals date back to the earliest most primitive laws that allow a society to function: reciprocation, honesty, respect of property, etc. Others have more modern origins, such as equality, freedom, or even the pursuit of scientific knowledge to, for example, help prevent the kind of cut-throat future scenario you describe.
broodfood 4 days ago
In the light of all the hate in all the holy books, the question should be: Why would religious people ever do good things?
TomFynn 4 days ago
Why do religious people do evil?????????
HannoverFisk 5 days ago
Lol, good doesnt decide whats evil and whats not, people do. Remember when Christianity was evil, and the romans threw them into arena's with lions ^.^
masen111 5 days ago
The bible promotes slavery and bashing babies heads against rocks, and I do that ALL the time. Catholics also promote cannibalising Jesus' flesh and drinking his blood. With morals like that who needs evil.
IchiShii 6 days ago
nice moustache
Usvaaa 6 days ago
You can't define good or evil on a basis of God. I do what I believe to be good things, returning a wallet, helping someone with their homework, etc. Yet I am Atheist. It isn't God that instills Human values, it's Humans that instill Human values.
KHSlider 1 week ago
OBEY YOUR GOD! "Don't cut your hair nor shave". (Leviticus 19:27)
Batchelli 1 week ago 11
I don't go around bludgeoning children in the face with a screwdriver because I get this funny feeling that I shouldn't. Furthermore I'm glad I don't do it. I guess that means I'm a good person? No of course not, because I was TOLD not to harm people. Of course!
Please don't tell me to do anything bad oh almighty indoctrinators x[
IAINoodle 1 week ago
"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its' imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."
-Christopher Hitchens
V2Hovership 1 week ago
Even thinking that you wanted another ruling is going against your god's word. Or is it ok because your god made you to want another ruling, even though your god gave you another.
Hey Sami, can you explain to me why there are 10% of the US population are atheists, but only 0.21% of prison inmates are atheist? Chew on those numbers a bit. They may not be exact TODAY as you read this, but I'm quite certain they're pretty damn close. Religious morals eh?
fundslender 1 week ago
I do good because a man who married a 9 year old girl rode on a flying horse and wrote a book that god told him to write. Funny thing is, this book preaches a lot of things that aren't good so its kind of funny that my whole basis of why I should do good comes from a book that tells me to do things that aren't good.
On a side note....Im sue this guy in the video is a hit with all the ladies.
BEATBOCKS1 1 week ago
Why atheists do good? I can tell you that.
We DO have a reason to do good and help people: Because we are humans! We feel compassion with other humans, of a kind we don´t feel for other animals. Just as other animals feel compassion withing their own species. When I see a person in pain, I feel bad and want to help. It´s because I´m a human, and as a human it´s in my interest to preserve and secure the survival and well being of my fellow people.
That´s how simple it is. You are wrong.
OxygenChrist 2 weeks ago
1: Your viewpoint is not objective. It´s based on the assumption of god according to your idea.
2: Maybe my acctions to save a poor person will not be repayed from that person, but thet´s not the point. The point is that I want people to help me when I´m in need, therefore I do the same thing to others.
3: Why do I help poor people? BECAUSE IT FEELS GOOD! Not because anyone tells me to, because I´ll be puniced if I don´t: I do it because it´s the right thing to to. Ever heard of conscience?
OxygenChrist 2 weeks ago
Have you actually read Dawkins? For fuck sakes. No. Just, no. He doesn't advocate the notion that people only help one another in order to receive a favour in return. In fact, he explicitly says in Memes: the new replicators that we transcend our genes and we act altruistically. It's bad enough that you're an obnoxious, credulous theist with low standards of evidence, but it's even worse that you misrepresent the views of others in doing so. Buck up.
McTaggStar 2 weeks ago
you realize you are retarded and that you just accepted you are nothing but a mere puppet? i dont need god as a reason for justice, you saying that just prove you are as bad as it can get. Every nation has had some kind of justice so humans can life at more closely to peace as possible. we are rational people and we know pain and suffering, and we have emotions, that is what make us feel compasion,not being a simple robot, you disgust me. you should kill yourself, you make more bad than good.
jehovaX10 2 weeks ago
i help poor people because one day i might be poor and need help. you're arguing against solipsism, not atheism. also, atheism is not a religion. not all atheists are materialists or believe in the scientific paradigm. atheism is a lack of belief. a lack of belief is different from a belief in lack.
Benjabola 2 weeks ago
God, you make a lot of videos. You must really be trying to validate your beliefs. Are they so fragile? The atheists generally aren't encroaching on your beliefs, so stop putting them out there.
On another note, all that shit you say at the end is totally made-up. There is no evidence that such a situation is advantageous. There IS strong evidence that a species whose individuals work together thrive together.
clunkymonk 2 weeks ago
Imagine Earth without people. There is no such thing as good or evil except in how you see the world.
AnythingJapan 2 weeks ago
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Also, We help the poor because helping the herd survive evolutionarily helps you survive. Amen!
x89codered89x 3 weeks ago
OH, but doing good *IS* in your hands because you should also believe that god gave you free will.
Atheists do good because we just aren't inherently assholes. Atheists do things that make them feel good just like theists. I'm not saying Christians are assholes, but being good in the name of religion and to get to heaven is a selfish act.
We have a materialistic need to help people because it materialistically, physiologically feels good. We don't need to feel like a vessel to some God.
x89codered89x 3 weeks ago
We have evolved inner 'guidelines' to drive these acts because they have benefitted our survival to this point. We don't calculate each instance out before doing it, We just do it.
TheSmifffy1 3 weeks ago
I do good because I have evolved to do good for the benefit of my family and extended family (ultimately extended to the whole population of the world) and therefore for the benefit of myself.
You do good because you fear what will happen when you die if you don't.
I feel much better about why I do good than I would if I did it for your reasons.
You talk about examining the reasons for each act of good and calculating the chances of a return but this is not how it works.
TheSmifffy1 3 weeks ago
So you don't define good and evil. You let someone else do it for you. The Speaker Muhammad.
The answer is simple Sami. Reciporication, Altruism, empathy.
That which is good, is that which helps society.
That which is evil, harms it.
Stoning apostates to death, and genital mutilation for instance, are evil.
Have a nice day.
L00NGB00W 3 weeks ago
there is nothing objective about god
go kill yourself
BigTrollShaman 3 weeks ago
fucking kyke... i know I spelled it wrong... but fuck u Zionist
dollarstorePWNRlol 3 weeks ago
You say, "god gives objective morality", it should have no dependance on god. How is morality a fact without depending on a god? God's morality is as subjective as anyone's morals? If resources are finite, poor people should die to ensure survival of the species? There are better measures for population control than letting people die: ie. one-child policy. I believe in charity because of compassion and that a one-child policy is necessary to ensure survival.
Bourtini 3 weeks ago in playlist More videos from SamiZaatari
@Bourtini One critique is that letting people die is more effective in this moment than waiting for the right policies for population control to pass, yet, I do not agree the death of others for a better ensured survival is moral since us humans are bound for extinction whether I give to charity or not. Note: mutual aid is the example I've presented (via policy), competition is not always beneficial to survival, but mutual aid is.
However, a very interesting argument you present.
Bourtini 3 weeks ago in playlist More videos from SamiZaatari
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Bourtini 3 weeks ago in playlist More videos from SamiZaatari
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1. god says it, therefore it is moral or 2. It is moral therefore god says it. The first option can not be true because god has commanded the killing of certain races, children etc. If god knows what is right and commands that, obviously morality exists outside of god and is attainable by anyone via reason and empathy.
metsoforte 3 weeks ago
1. god says it, therefore it is moral or 2. It is moral therefore god says it. The first option can not be true because god has commanded the killing of certain races, children etc. If god knows what is right and commands that, obviously morality exists outside of god and is attainable by anyone via reason and empathy.
metsoforte 3 weeks ago
Objectively there is no 'evil'.
I do good to avoid that my kind will end up in a dystopian world without trust. I like rainbows and unicorns, and if I neglected common trust those would die out.
Xx3Zzz 3 weeks ago
I have no doubt you are listening to a godlike voice saying what goes and what doesn't. The inherent problem with that is your God does not exist, like the rest. Most people with their feet planted firmly on the ground are that way because they are exempt form the mystical deities and mysterious voices abound in their head. Religion is a crutch for the gullible that must be aggressively defended. BTW, nobody is listening except some of your own. I gave as much time as the 400 characters typed.
deadmanprodinc 1 month ago
thats how we are build
snedden27 1 month ago
JESUS WAS BLACK DUMBASS
TheFallenExplode 1 month ago
You're assuming that something like objective morality even exists.
imsh11 1 month ago
get rid of the monitary system then no body will be poor ants are a good example of this
HairyMetal2 1 month ago
This guy couldn't argue his way out of a wet paper bag. Pure garbage sir. Do NOT ever say objective when your argument is nothing but SUBJECTIVE. Fucking dolt.
wuharold00 1 month ago
Don't say objective. You embarrass yourself when you do. Take on something else because you obviously aren't intelligent enough to tackle this. Try knitting, I've heard its therapeutic.
wuharold00 1 month ago
You are one ugly Jew.
neomysterio 1 month ago
@SamiZaatari you are a real paradox first you talk about free will the you talk about submiting you're will to god man get over you're self and live you're life
jordan5ans 1 month ago
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@SamiZaatari
"Why do atheists do good?" - Altruism.
Why do theists do good? - Personal gain - to receive the favour of God.
Which seems the more moral now?
Graeme555 1 month ago
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Graeme555 1 month ago
I'll admit it. I have somewhat optimistic views of humanity, but you've really changed my mind. I had to smile at your use of the word "objective" - you REALLY need an education beyond the narrow-minded religious education you appear to have received. There is nothing objective about religion beyond narrow nominal facts (i.e. names and numbers). Atheism is an absence of belief and nothing more - how can this be be (yes, objectively)equated with anything other than a free mind open to enquiry?
Songsinthekeyofcheap 1 month ago
@SamiZaatari
Humans have a natural propensity to feed the poor etc and it is a self serving act
You would know this if you had some skill with objective introspection
It has nothing to do with our collection of beliefs or lack of beliefs
We “all” do it because “WE” like doing it, it feels good so we selfishly indulge ourselves in a bit of philanthropy
If you can give me an example of a truly unselfish act ill buy myself a hat and eat it :)
Good luck xx
Mark777X 1 month ago 18
@Mark777X what is this, friends?! are you joey? just because you get a good feeling from doing something good doesn't mean you simply do it because you wanted to feel good, the reason why you feel good is because you did something good. it's very easy to prove an unselfish act, if you see a lady getting raped, will you not intervene? and do you expect me to believe that the only reason you intervene is because you want to feel better about yourself rather than because it's the right thing to do?
SamiZaatari 1 month ago
@SamiZaatari If a woman is getting raped, an atheist does it to save the woman. A Theist does it to please their invisible god so they can be showered with praises when they die... Yes it feels good to do good things. Atheists understand morality whereas theists follow it blindly..
Vikramthewhite 4 weeks ago
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@SamiZaatari the reason why you feel good is because of the increased release of dopamine in the brainreceptors you ignorant twat, but then again, you have never met science so how could you know huh?
MasSaCreS9 1 week ago
@Mark777X secondly, what about people who give their lives for a cause, that's a very unselfish act, when someone gives their life to save someone else etc, that is a very very unselfish act as you are literally giving your life up. or how about people who literally give up everything to help others, they don't get a good life of pleasure, they rather go through hardship and give up an easy good life just to help others, that's very unselfish.
SamiZaatari 1 month ago
@Mark777X and in conclusion, i strongly disagree with you that we simply help others for our own selfish desires, to feel better, i don't believe that in the least, you can't tell me how i feel or why i do what i do when i know why i do it, when i help poor people i don't do it to feel good for myself, i do it because i believe it's the right thing to do, as they are poor people, and they need help, while i am living good so i should help them out as it's the right thing to do, thats what i feel
SamiZaatari 1 month ago
@SamiZaatari
I do follow you however, the key is in the “I” do it because “I” believe it’s the right thing to do so it follows that “you want” to do the right thing
Its always about what “you want”
If I threw myself on a grenade it would be because I loved my comrades and I want to save them
it begins and ends in what “I want”
I save the lady because “I” feel terrible so I fix my pain by saving her
Its a bitter pill to swallow when first encountered but liberating when assimilated
Mark777X 1 month ago
@Mark777X well many people do good things even when they don't want to, many people gave their lives for comrades and fought for a good cause even though they really didn't want to.
SamiZaatari 1 month ago
@SamiZaatari
I concur; however, I don’t want to cut my grandmother lawn
I don’t want to feel guilty for not doing so even more
So I selfishly pick the option I prefer and cut her grass.
Mark777X 1 month ago
@SamiZaatari
Yet, you do good because you want some divine being to smile down upon you and give you the thumbs-up approval. That's the corrupting idea of religion: doing 'good' because it pleases God. That's not moral, that's obedience to authority.
jrbails 1 month ago
@SamiZaatari
You mean that many people do good things even though these actions require some kind of sacrifice.
As a theist, you probably believe in free will. So, did they do these good things despite their desire to not do them? That would negate free will.
Either you accept this above conclusion, or you accept that they in fact did want to do the good acts.
If you accept that they did want to, then you must accept that they are selfish.
MrLeonardfalkland 6 days ago
@Mark777X ~ You are wrong. I know this from your own argument. I have done good (only a few times) for the sake of good itself, when I knew it would come back on me in a bad way. Higher ethics do not wish to be repayed evil for good, but do this anyway because of a non-pleasurable understanding that ones version of right supercedes ones desire for pleasure. I take no pleasure in being punished for doing good.
~andrew jonathan rowe
PangoliaDogg15 2 weeks ago
@Mark777X ~ My introspection shows that I hate my own death less than I hate what I know is evil. Do you "support the troops"? If you do, then you do not understand Self-sacrifice? Soldiers, "Theist" or "Atheist" are willing to lose their lives (and don't have a death wish) for what they believe is right. To kill and to die for ones values is a form of righteousness.
~andrew j rowe
PangoliaDogg15 2 weeks ago
@PangoliaDogg15
“for the sake of good itself” then it must follow that “you want” to do good for the sake of good itself so you are just selfishly doing what you want to do even if it ends in you knowingly getting your fingers burnt
Anyone willing to lose their lives for what they believe is right has a self serving motive.
Its not hard to see that “they want” to do the right thing… maybe even more than “they want” to live
love remains untarnished (if you know how to look)
Mark777X 2 weeks ago
@Mark777X ~ Read about Selfish Gene Theory. It explains why altruism is real to the individual, and is not self-serving, but serves the genes. This cannot be proven, but it's a good theory that opens up a lot. Actually, get into Evolutionary Psychology, 'cause it uses parts of Selfish Gene Theory to give a good theory on how people can be genuinely altruistic, even if in a limited way.
PangoliaDogg15 2 weeks ago
@Mark777X ~ The whole thing here is that we have different assumption about "Self". Thus argument would be pointless are our Premises are different. We can get as logical as we want and still not change each other's minds.
PangoliaDogg15 2 weeks ago
@PangoliaDogg15
If you point to those different assumptions I might be with you
The part of me that feels like it makes choices can do nothing but self serve
(unless you show me the error of my ways)
I don’t wish to speak to Dawkins by proxy, I was responding to your objection If you have assimilated a concept that I am unaware of, you could just express my error to the point, if its beyond your ability to do so im not sure by what mechanism you would think I was wrong in the first place
Mark777X 2 weeks ago
@Mark777X ~ The Mechanism is Evolutionary Psychology relating the Selfish Gene Theory. I'm not into spending hours and hours getting References to give evidence where I see no point.
Okay, key words: Kin-Selection (the one that says some altruism is real, but limited), Reciprocal Altruism and Indirect Reciprocity (the two that say that some "altruism is self serving as you say).
I've just realised that we are both right, depending on what concepts we use.
PangoliaDogg15 2 weeks ago
@PangoliaDogg15
you chanel settings wont let me respond to you PM unless you add me as a contact ??
i spent ages responding :(
Mark777X 2 weeks ago
I am an atheist, and I actually like to watch this guy's vids. He addresses a lot of interesting points, and at least attempts to approach them in an intelligent and relatively objective fashion. You could do a lot worse is what I'm saying.
05brassmonkey 1 month ago
Is it still good if you're doing it for the greatest imaginable figurative doggy treat, as well as in fear of the the most incredibly uncomfortable figurative rolled up newspaper?
twilitprince 1 month ago
So, in summary, the religeous help people in order to obtain gifts from God, not because you simply want to do it. Meanwhile, when an atheist does something good, they do it for no expected reward and even go against their own self-interests to do so.
You just conceeded the fact that Atheists are more devout than the religious.
putzthewondersloth 1 month ago
People do good DESPITE their holy books. The Abrahamic God makes evil laws and he has done many evil things.
Examples of things that God commands and condones:
1. Killing babies
2. Slavery
3. Raping women
4. Stoning people for eating shell fish, wearing mixed linens, and working on the Sabbath
Luckily people have better morals than God.
demoskunk 1 month ago
I do it out of selfishness. I help others to feel good about myself. When I do good I get a happy feeling inside me. I take advantage of other people by helping them to boost my own ego! Then later on I meet up with my other atheist friends and brag to them that I am so much better than them!
TangoHotell 1 month ago
There's nothing worse than a complete moron who believe themselves to be intelligent arrogantly flaunting their moronic ideals to everyone in an attempt to defend their own stupidity.
I am amused.
tlucentefl 1 month ago
lol, this guy's like... obeying to atority
ps123fan 1 month ago
we do good because the flying spaghetti monster wills it! All hail his noodle appendage!
somedevil6868 1 month ago 20
@somedevil6868 ...R'amen....
cyborgchimpy 1 month ago
Why do we do good? Because we do it out of real kindness, not selfish ignorant fear of spending an eternity being tortured, and would much rather go to happy marshmallow phunland where you can get your rims polished by hot blondes with wings and nice tits.
MarkJohansen123 1 month ago
TIL I should never help poor people
FACEJJ 1 month ago
So hang on, you think that atheists only do good for a reward?
Isn't that what theists do? You know, do good, believe in god and you will be rewarded in the afterlife? In fact, in most religions it is the belief in a god itself that will guarantee you passage to the afterlife. So basically, you could do whatever you wanted, and believe in god and at some point repent and you will have your big reward.
And you call atheists immoral.
alex123superface 1 month ago
I get the sense that atheists displaying empathy and altruism is a source of frustration to you.
Why do atheists do charitable acts? How dare they show compassion when ethics are derived only from the sky?
Does the fact that many atheists call themselves 'Humanist' give you any clues? Charitable works done in the hope of eternal paradise is anything but altruistic. It's distasteful,ungenerous and self-seeking.
papillon7 1 month ago
I'm an atheist. I would genuinely like to listen to your video, and hear your argument.
But you talk so fucking slowly it's unbearable.
CPLGDR 1 month ago
so since Allah says kill all who reject Islam , you will do it ? good to know
SqueakerAlpha 1 month ago
a thinking being, with empathy for others might look at a situation and say, "Hey, If I help Bill today, maybe next month Bill will help me" Consider it self-interest in terms of Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
SqueakerAlpha 1 month ago
'Survival of the fittest' is a natural mechanism not a moral guideline. It's the best explanation of how we have come about but it's not a way to build a society if you want to live happily in it.
hallelujaable 1 month ago
I think you've misunderstood what Richard Dawkins was saying. I'm sure he was trying to explain how these selfless emotions could have come about through natural selection. He was not referring to his moral standpoints. We, humans, are empathetic creatures and help others out because it makes us feel good or less bad. It's an emotional, instinctive response in both theists and atheists. You use religion to justify you standpoints, and atheist must use other arguments.
hallelujaable 1 month ago
Aww, Frank Zappa is having delusions again and making videos :(
annalisagetscrunk 1 month ago
Unlike religion, no atheist at any time has inflicted harm on another human being in the 'name of atheism'. However, many millions have been killed, mamed, or tortured in the name of some god, refusing to believe in that god, or refusing to swtich from the god they now believe in, to the one being rammed up their ass with the sword by the people who think their god is the only god.
Why do atheists do good? hmmmm.... I forget now...
LordSauceness 1 month ago
Sir, your argument is put forward with the assumption that there is no valid moral argument from an Atheist perspective because we lack a God. You disregard the fact that if your God (or more likely their earthly rep) said you should start killing off people to save the world from overpopulation than you would have to follow that command without question and therefore would be the one without a basis to argue. A Realist on the other hand would be able to argue from many, varied points of view.
markcaddo 2 months ago
Additionally, we have surpassed the very vulgar morality mentioned in "holy" scripture aeons ago. Need I mention pedophilia, slavery, stonings and the likes? If you honestly followed the morality guidelines of your "holy" book, I am absolutely certain that you would act very differently from what you actually do in real life. There is a reason that most religious people act very differently from what their scripture demands they do. Scripture morality is archaic, savage and severely outdated.
alexanderalexandrou 2 months ago
@alexanderalexandrou people used to cover their mouths when yawning, so that no bad spirits can enter their bodies through their mouths. And draining blood was the #1 answer any doctor had. Clearly stupid and wrong by today's standards of science, right? So why do we consider it stupid? Because unlike religion, science EVOLVES by questioning itself and CORRECTING ITS ERRORS. Something that Theists are INCAPABLE of doing, even after CENTURIES of lies and mistakes. All in the name of Ignorance. :)
HuntingGoodWill 2 months ago
Is there no stone you left unturned when coming up with these arguments against atheists? Your arguments are like a "worst of" collection of religious apologetics. Coming from a psychology background myself, I would highly suggest reading up on empathy because humans, and not only humans, have it. Social species need to promote well-being in their social environment in order to thrive as individuals. It is partially self-serving and I have no problem with that, unlike you. It is what it is.
alexanderalexandrou 2 months ago
@alexanderalexandrou an EGOIST or SOCIOPATH knows no boundaries to his egoism. A EGOCENTRIC sees his well-being as the main engine behind his acts. So a EGOIST father won't care about his children, if they are fed, healthy or educated. An EGOCENTRIC will see his offspring as PART of his own "satisfaction", as part of his "happiness". So his children happiness, is his happiness.........now a Muslim, a Christian or an Atheist parent will give You the same answer. So, why do they "do good"? :)
HuntingGoodWill 2 months ago
@HuntingGoodWill Sociopathy or psychopathy are diagnosable mental health pathologies, with genetic roots and environmental factors that influence their onset. We don't judge average human behavior based on such individuals as they are a tiny minority. Just wanted to add that. As for the rest, I think you put what I was trying to say in better words very successfully and we are in agreement. I can't see why it's so hard for some people to understand why we do good without gods
alexanderalexandrou 2 months ago
Because we want to based on our feelings free will and emotions at the time,
hambone9119 2 months ago
Anything I do that will favour the survival of the species is evolution at work my friend.
keenanmartens 2 months ago
THE FOUNDATION FOR AN ATHEIST'S MORALITY COMES FROM EVOLUTION! it's so simple. there is no debating this part of it.
keenanmartens 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
HEY! 90% of ppl nowadays are born with a reasonable moral compass. A set of "built-in" values that develops as we age.
The foundation for this of course is EVOLUTION. A simple (incomplete mind you) way of explaining it would be as follows:
Those without morals are more likely to create conflict. Those who are more likely to create conflict are more likely to die in said conflict. Those who die, well, can't reproduce. Thus leaving only the peaceful and moral ppl alive to pass on their genes.
keenanmartens 2 months ago
Ok look. "survival of the fittest" when we are discussing evolution talks about what happens naturally in the animal kingdom (yes including us). BUT, majority of animals, not all, do not operate on a moral and conscious plane. They operate with limited consciousness, sub-consciously learned habits, and instinct. And, that instinct is to do one thing: CONTINUE THE SPECIES. This means survival and reproducing. Survival of the fittest causes evolution because if you can out-compete, you survive.
Abstriku 2 months ago
its morale moron
Cambiony 2 months ago
The only thing we all have in common is the first person perspective, which is actually a singular experience. This is where good and bad comes from. Each persons idea of these opposing forces will be different. When we incorporate all the experiences with the history of civilizations, we have a massive conglomerate of teachings to sift through and create what is best for the individual and for society. That is how moral code is determined.
Athletictrainer09 2 months ago
@Athletictrainer09 The assumption that personal gain is the motivation is wrong. As an atheist, I also believe in something greater. By helping a person that is poor or in need, you are bettering their quality of life and reducing suffering. Evil is doing harm to others on both the individual and societal levels. Helping lift someone from destitution is the hope that that person or group will go on to help others.
Athletictrainer09 2 months ago
@Athletictrainer09 The fact that we are overpopulating is the result of familial gain over societal health. The progress toward helping whomever you can is a separate issue from whether is is morally right to knowingly expand our population in this way. If we take a step back as a society we know this to be true. This is where the personal responsibility to address these manners in the proper order comes into play. To breed or to help those in need that are already here first.
Athletictrainer09 2 months ago
when you help that poor person out, you are making the world a little less miserable
cowboifunk 2 months ago
i call it common sence to what is good or bad ahah
ajbellavance 2 months ago
I think we can all objectively agree that your mustache is appalling.
haohyou12 2 months ago
A last thing on why we do good. We do good because it's beneficial to society, and what benefits our society helps our species progress which in turn helps our species survive. I can't speak for all atheists but the way I see it, we (humans) are all in this together. We all contribute to the progress of our species on some level. And more than ever we need to get away from thinking "How does this benefit me" and start thinking "How does this benefit us".
SteveRB0 2 months ago
The problem of overpopulation and dwindling resources wont be solved by simply letting the poor people die or something. That homeless guy on the side of the road doesn't use gas because he doesn't have car. He doesn't use electricity because he doesn't have a home. He creates less waste and uses fewer resources than other people because he cant. We could let all the unfortunate and homeless people on the planet die and it wouldn't help our planets problems at all. Theres no reason not to help.
SteveRB0 2 months ago
Morality is largely based on the society you live in, although some things have become commonplace through instinct. Humans are a community species, basically we live and work together to survive. Ancient humans (and probably pre-humans) most likely realized that when they killed someone from their "pack" or tribe it became harder to survive. This eventually led to the common rule in human populations of "Don't kill each other".
SteveRB0 2 months ago
so SammiZaatari, if your God commands you to take an axe and chop a baby into bits , you will do so with a smile on your face confident that it is a good thing ?
How about Allahs command to kill infidels ?
those who leave the faith ?
adulterers? homosexuals ?
how many have you personally killed ?
SqueakerAlpha 2 months ago
oh, good and evil are relative terms.
Is cutting someone with a knife good or evil ? you can not say without knowing the situation.
is killing someone good or evil ? again , it depends
evil =/= bad there is a subtle difference
God said "kill them all but keep the virgins" is that good or evil ? would a young virgin girl actually like being "married" to a man who recently butchered her family ?
You need to be clear what you mean by God. Christian God Yaweh or muslim God Allah ?
SqueakerAlpha 2 months ago
atheists are the spawn of Satan and we do good things because it confuses the christians and muslims a lot. Thats the real and only reason.
Or it could be that as members of a society and having empathy for how we might feel in a particular circumstance we try to help people in the way we would appreciate being helped in the same situation. Gee that sounds a lot like "do unto others..." where have I heard that one ?
SqueakerAlpha 2 months ago
IF YOU DO GOOD JUST BECAUSE YOU FEAR GOOD...YOU ARE EVIL AND A COWARD! ...MYSELF...WHEN I DO GOOD..I FEEL GOOD,WHEN I DO BAD..I FEEL BAD!
xxxxvalentinxxxx 2 months ago
A good man will do good even without religion. A Bad man will do bad with or without religion. But for a good man to do bad religion is necessary.
That being said, atheists have far higher moral standards than the religious, because we have to live with our action. We dont get a "3 hail mary's and you're forgiven". Not to mention the atrocities pointed out as moral standards in the holy books.
I have yet to see a single video of you where your logic is not fundamentally flawed.
Razomir 2 months ago
Sami, what if God told you to go and kill everyone in Florida, Sparing no one including men, women, and children because there are cult leaders there engaging in child sacrifice? Would you do that (let's assume that you would not get prosecuted because it was "God's command"). Would you kill babies and toddlers because everyone in Florida was "only doing evil continually"? I am willing to bet that you would NOT.
superfalcon123 2 months ago
Before asking this question, you should wonder why believers do evil.
maotzetof 3 months ago
Humans do good the same reason they yawn when they see someone else do it ? It's because when you see someone do an action, or feel something, the same neuro-transmetter are activated in both our brains. It's the same principle for empathy. Nobody likes to see someone else suffer, since it triggers the mirror-neuron system in our brains making us "suffer" like the one suffering. That's why if you have to choose between saving an old lady or 50 featuses, you'll be enclined to save the old lady.
ThinkerResearcher 3 months ago
@ThinkerResearcher The absolute proof of what i just said is the fact that some autistic kids, born with a dysfunctional mirror-neuron system , are born without the ability (or very little) of experiencing empathy. Did god just forget to implant "good" in them ? It would be weird, woudln't it ? Well, it's explained, proven, and there is no need for god in this equation.
ThinkerResearcher 3 months ago
You poor, indoctrinated fool.
SkoorbTak 3 months ago
God is silent on sex with little girls, holding slaves, and wars of aggression, and indeed, Mohammad did all three. If your morality is objective, you condone all of these and have no place in today's world; if you do not, your morality is subjective and you are a hypocrite. (Yes, great thinkers are also guilty of these, but with subjective morality, that's no problem.)
I have genuine empathy. Apparently, you do not.
Evolution is a fact, not an ethos. Some conflate them because of YOU.
IoEstasCedonta 3 months ago
Man this guy is a fucking IDIOT!!!!!!!!!
nucman133 3 months ago
If you want to find the answer to the title of your video, you should try actually asking an atheist.
ThMrksman 3 months ago
we do good because we actually care for other people, and not because of fear like most of the religious people
shadowknigth94 3 months ago
True. Atheists will anaylze society and provide the statistics but they will not take action. Example: You will move from the U.S to a very poor country, because your dollar bill is more powerful there, even when you blatanly see the suffering. Its like me interviewing poor/homeless people questioning them about their lifestyle and then not giving them anything to eat right after. Makes no sense.
dathip 3 months ago
If you submit yourself to whomever is in charge and you think that whatever the person in charge does is GOOD, then you too can be a nazi. And even worse, if you submit yourself to your imaginary friend, that's just giving up the reins of your own free will to some alternate piece of personality that has crept up from the recesses of your addled brain. You don't deserve the life that you think your god gave you. You've already given up on morals, ethics and reasoning. Sounds like mental suicide
Rahn127 3 months ago
The basis for helping other people is empathy. We understand how it feels to be hungry, so we try to feed those who have hunger. We understand how it feels to suffer and to experience pain, so we try to reduce suffering and reduce pain. We try to eliminate disease, create vaccines, build infrastructure and build installations that produce clean water. We do all of this from the moral standpoint of reducing harm and promoting well being. As atheists, we understand where our morals come from...US
Rahn127 3 months ago
Your version of a god is from muslim mythology from your ancient text that was written by superstitious goat herders. .I can't believe a grown man could actually believe in fairy tales. .
0019josh7100 3 months ago
Since "god decides" what is good and what is evil, does that mean you have no moral objection to slavery? You think it's okay because god endorses it?
zeusrulestheheavens 3 months ago
We atheists help people in order to reduce suffering; we don't like suffering and because all humans are capable of empathy we don't want our fellow creatures (that includes animals) to suffer either. Your god allows and even seems to enjoy inflicting suffering. Okay, if he thinks suffering is good we can call it good. That does't change the fact that he is a sociopath, according to the human clinical definition.
dXoverdteqprogress 4 months ago 18
@dXoverdteqprogress first of all,as an atheist u shouldnt believe in the existence of good or evil,there r no such concepts 2 u.so y do u help pple? will u help someone knowing it will cause u big problems?if ur answer is a "yes" then ur a good person but ur not consistent with what u believe! cuz y hurt severely hurt urself 4 the sake of someone else?if ur answer is "no" than u r consistent with ur belief but ur not consistent in what u just said in ur comment
HIMAZZZ1991 1 month ago
@HIMAZZZ1991 The problem with your argument is that you see everything black and white. Helping someone/or not, when it may cause harm to you does not necessarely make you a good/bad person. This is why we atheists see morality not as given, but reasoned. It was reason that abolished slavery; it was reason that stoped burning witches; etc. -- religion was (and still would be) more than happy to continue such practices. Religion has a terrible track record when it comes to morality.
dXoverdteqprogress 1 month ago
@dXoverdteqprogress slavery was ended by metaphysical reason, "We are all God's children." Burning Witches (Spanish Inquisition) was stopped by Catholic rule. Otherwise there was no one strong enough at the time to change that edict. (Though of course in the 'non-Western' word this crime still goes on...)
officialmer 1 month ago
@officialmer You can't possible think this to be true. Slavery in the US was ended by secular thinkers -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, to mention a few. The Christians in the south were more than happy to continue slavery and justify it by referring to scripture. I can't claim deep knowledge on what ended the Spanish Inquisition, but the French Revolution was a MAJOR part of it. And what started the psychopathy of burning people in the first place? -- religion. Thanks for the comment.
dXoverdteqprogress 1 month ago
@dXoverdteqprogress Thomas Jefferson (a spiritual explorer) & Abraham Lincoln did not work together. Abraham Lincoln was a Non-Denominational Christian & it was he who ended slavery n the U.S. by using his Presidential power. Thomas Paine was a Deist & didn't believe n organized religion, but he believed in the truth of God found n nature. The French Revolution had nothing 2 do w/the ending of the Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish Catholic's had a change of mind & heart.
officialmer 3 weeks ago
@dXoverdteqprogress no,i think my argument still stands,cuz u c ,y would u help someone or do sth conceptually good,especially if its gonna harm u or at least limit ur capacities or whatever(like slavery,y would u abandon this act?u have pple workin 4 unconditionally,increasin ur power,money n quality of life etc my question here is the "WHY?",rationally, a lot of harmful deeds r gonna make u rich 4 example so y not?! ......(to be cont.)
HIMAZZZ1991 3 weeks ago
@HIMAZZZ1991 It is rationality that has pulled us out of moral primitivity: over time, by trial and error, the society has learned that in order to avoid suffering, ALL people must have the opportunity to seek happiness, otherwise (and this is evident in history) if one group of people is granted human rights and others aren't, the society as a whole is unhealthy and unstable. On the other hand, if you simply listen to what God says, THEN you CANNOT justify morality by reasoning.
dXoverdteqprogress 3 weeks ago
@dXoverdteqprogress c the key point here is the moral anchor. the "y" n "y not" .u cannot really do good (rationally speaking) unless u have an objective moral anchor.if a serial killer or a rapist or a gangster steal n kill not believin in a sort of obj moral anchor (ie God,rationally speakin,God is the only obj moral anchor) ,so what's there 4that evil person 2 be blamed 4?!! if society sais pedophilia is ok then its gonna be ok!! now some atheists wont 2 bad ,good 4 them
HIMAZZZ1991 3 weeks ago
@HIMAZZZ1991 Yes, you society CAN do good, rationally speaking. If a society allowed the rape of children such society would not survive and go extinct and only those societies that forbade it would be successful. On top of that, we have evolved a complex emotion called empathy -- the ability to imagine suffering without experiencing it. This is why (mentally) healthy people have natural aversion to rape, murder and inflicting suffering on others in general. To be continued...
dXoverdteqprogress 3 weeks ago
@dXoverdteqprogress but here contradicting there belief
HIMAZZZ1991 3 weeks ago
@HIMAZZZ1991 I'm enjoying this conversation but the limited space is frustrating. Would you like to communicate via the message box?
dXoverdteqprogress 3 weeks ago
@dXoverdteqprogress first of all i gotta apologize 4 that i think my comments arent relevant directly answering urs!! i thought i wrote them consecutively within a certain time frame but apparently when i saw this comment page ,it appeared that its separated by ur comments ! anyway i would be glad 2 continue this ,but sorry if i seem a bit distant for i have many things 2 do n utube is just somethin i run through.
HIMAZZZ1991 3 weeks ago
@dXoverdteqprogress sorry 4 my grammar mistakes.what is evil?in a sense of "natural disasters"?or,killin someone?or,drinking n gamblin?what do u mean?if u mean killin someone then i say god gave us free will n thats what u get by its existence.plus,God has put mechanism 2 reduce n solve crimes of such nature,which also answers the part about gamblin n drinkin n fornication etc... (about "natural disasters" is in another comment)
HIMAZZZ1991 1 month ago
@HIMAZZZ1991 You're right: I don't believe in the existence of "good" and "evil" as some "thing" out there; they are mere definitions to contrast situations. When someone kills another person and hence causes suffering to his/her family, we call the deed evil. Why? Because suffering is something undesirable by sentient creatures; they want to avoid it if possible. As for gambling and drinking, and natural disasters -- miner point; plus I'm out of space.
dXoverdteqprogress 1 month ago
wh-y-the-fu-ck-are-you-spe-kin-g-l-ike-th-at? are you a retard...oh yes , you are , fuck you for wasting 10 minutes of my life. fuck you very very much.
sintelaurent 4 months ago
This is very simple to answer. In a lot of mammals there exists a heard mentatlity. That taking care of your own species helps your own survival. I would direct you to out closests primate relatives who clean eachother and protect eachother. Dogs clean eacthothers wounds and hunt in packs. Now if you take that and add it our extreme evolution from primate to homosapean, its not hard to see how and why we developed morals naturally to sustaine civilization. This also inturn points to no need 4god
SaintKines 4 months ago
why would an atheist be good anyway , he is gonna die one day ! They talk here like they are the heads of charity organisations but in real life they don't give a penny
MrCobra811 4 months ago
If he is trying to troll, he is doing a terrible job at it.
DerplesThePanda 4 months ago
"So How do I objectively define good and bad?"
You can't, because good and bad, moral and immoral are subjective concepts.
phocjame 4 months ago
empathy is the word, fvckin' ignorant.
Almandarina2 4 months ago