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From: ZaiSC2K
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  • hard counter to marine = colosus and ht but easy to counter :D

  • lololol The date on his PC is set to 1-4-2012 and it was uploaded on 5 jan 2012 xD

  • funny joke, 15 marine walks into a bar and ask

    "where's the counter?"

  • infestors and collosi are mid to late game. I have a feeling Zai was talking about a counter to Marines during the formative first 10m or so, where MMM is pretty much to only choice. Unfortunately, I don't think morphing Hellions are going to change that. The Zerg spell that nullifies the range of attacks is a good idea, but again I think it will come too late to influence the game before both sides have a third base and lots of tech and resources.

  • no counter for marines? infestor(+banes)(+ultras), collossus, ht...

  • IM AUSTRALIAN AND I WANT MY TIME ZONE!

  • So... Did you ever find Tupac?

  • but i guess blizzard didn't want capital ships to be like a "get this unit faster than your opponent and you win" sort of thing. It's like Titans in Age of Mythology if you've ever played that game.

  • Just an FYI. Russia has 11 time zones. Yep, 11... :D

  • "aaand because you don't want to listen to me talk for 10 minutes"

    looks at video length

    ...

  • Of course Australia watches you Zai! We are 18 hours ahead of your time :D

  • I love when terran players go mech because its so weak. lots of terrans like to go all bfh tank thor because it totally mops up muta ling, but all you need is a roach warren and bfh are suddenly useless and you kind of play chicken with the thor and tank count, mo tanks mo mutas, mo thors mo roaches. its so much easier than standard marine tank idk why terrans even do it. mech definalty needs some kind of buff and marines need a small nerf, probably to attack speed

  • dude mech is amazing against zerg

  • Zai ur a random player..not a zerg player so stop bitching like one

  • i think that all races should get to have a hero unit like zerg gets kerrigan, terran gets raynor and toss gets tassadar or something and they can only be activated at the 15 minute mark or something idk i think that would be fucking awesome

  • Awesome video. Great points. Overlord acceleration is an interesting idea i've not seen elsewhere. capital ships are indeed retardely implemented as they are now, another good point. marines... eh i think they can be countered, no real problem there, even if they are gay and boring. making the beginning chokes smaller is insane. can't see that happenin. deathball i think is a cool concept for toss, but yes repetitive. hopefully new harass unit in HOTS make this better. great video.

  • I'm pretty sure Russia has like 5 time zones

  • I Play zerg at a gold level so take this with a grain of salt, but i usually get bit faster lair (with my second) 100 gas then pull off gas (after 50 more) and then use an overseerer to scout. The way i time it seems to be at the 6:30-8 min mark(depending on about a million things), however, thats still a bit late to detect all ins, considering that terrian usually build their orbital at 15 supply, but this has served me pretty well.

  • @HappiestEverEmoBoy The problem with that is, although it lets you get an early scout off, you're actually sacrificing a lot of economy to get it (the money you spent on the lair+minerals for the overseer could have been used to build 7 more drones early on). That means, even if you scout an all-in, you might not have the economy to defend it, and if your opponent plays standard, you're behind for no reason.

    Also, how is the orbital timing related to that?

  • Hey Zai, can you reply to this comment?

    What's your opinion on making Hydra's more useful? Are they fine now? Or should they get a boost in some area?

  • @WNxMercy Hydras are a niche unit. They allow you to counter air easily and can be used in some powerful timing attacks, but late game they become obsolete due to cost and squishiness. I think if they keep speed in HoTS it will make them far more viable in late game in some compositions, which is good.

  • @ZaiSC2K thanks! :D

  • Alright. I'll be the pedantic douche canoe. In what time zone is Zai when he says it's Thursday morning and yet his clock says it's 8:47 on Wednesday evening? Is it Australia, Japan or Korea?

  • @magreggins I knew the video would be released Thursday... forgot the time was as the bottom of my screen :-)

  • And stupid ass equations like that is why i dropped mecch eng

  • You forgot to mention that Ultralisks are also absolute shit. If you don't believe me go watch your brother's games... he talks at least once every game about how shitty they are and they gets them anyway.

  • @EvolutionSTUD10S Then again, he takes it back every other game saying that they are good, and then he calls them shit again when he loses if he uses them.

  • Especially the marine argument I don't get, every race gets T1 units aplenty, protoss makes a good deal of zealots, zerg makes a good deal of lings, T1 units of any race are just a great mineral dump.

    Terran is in fact the only race that sometimes doesn't make T1 units any more. Though in some PvZ games zealots are also sparse.

  • @nageljeuk Actually, a lot of ZvP games involve very few, if any, lings. In ZvZ as well, beyond the early game, lings are rarely used. Also, in PvP and PvZ, the Protoss will generally use stalkers as the focus of their army, with only a few zealots.

    The only time Terran DOESN'T use marines as the focus of their army is some late-game TvTs...

  • @TheMoocow2009 No, they don't use them as the core of their army but they get them is the point, Terrans also don't use marines as the core of their army except in some TvZ and all TvP strats almost. They are mineral dumps you get because they cost no gas. Commentators in the GSL are always pointing out that it is fine to lose marinse, but not to use things like tanks or thors.

    Except if you go pure bio, then marines become the core again.

  • @nageljeuk Perhaps I phrased that wrong. I meant that marines are a major part of your army in almost all Terran compositions. There is almost no commonly used strategy in which you aren't relying on marines in some capacity -- anti-air, cannon fodder, or just pure damage dealing. On the other hand, zerglings see almost no such use beyond the early game except in ZvT and occasionally ZvP. You don't even really get them, and they're certainly not an important part of your army.

  • Zai. 2 things.

    first, Australia is 19 hours ahead of PST so it will be at 5 AM on Monday for them.

    second, congrats on 11,000 subscribers.

  • is it just me or is Psy drunk ;)

  • Comment removed

  • Marine: Range nerf.

  • i agree with all of your suggestions. and to everyone who is complaining that they are in favor of zerg, you need look at current GSL line up. Best players in the world and they are mostly terran. and Zai is right about toss death ball. you either lose to a 4 gate, a 7/8 gate timing or a standard death ball that is hard to defeat even with the proper unit comp. His suggestions are to make the game better. He is not complaining about balance issues.

  • All these issues will be fixed in HoTS if the units are implemented. BC, colossus, pvp defenders advantage.

    Marines get hard counted by infesters, colossus and tanks. Its the ghosts that have no counter.

    Late game pvt you'd get all the units except for air if you want to be able to fight terran units and its a huge micro war. If you just make a deathball you'd die cause you get emped then you die.

    Im sorry zai but you are low masters and in no position to call some of these things.

  • Action Center requires your attention.

  • everyone always says marines can counter banelings by splitting so theyre op but im an average player and getting a good split that is effective is pretty fucking hard. even the pros dont split well every time

  • @crewbroski121 practice in the unit tester, you will be a pro splitter in a half hour. It is not a hard skill to master. Your just lazy

  • @crewbroski121 well zerg has two "counters" and toss has 2 as well to a point tho.. one for terran, banelings and infestors, but it also depends on the amount of marines your attacking verse the amount of banelings your using to attack for the cost efficiency, infestors if they can get off 2 fungals they're dead but need some uped roaches as a buffer plus burrow, toss has archons and temps but again archons need to be pretty fricken close and only have 3 for d, so kite and rape

  • @crewbroski121 and temps need to have like 5 storms to make sure they all get mostly damaged if not killed and then tanks... splash is all terran has but yeah banelings are still a viable counter, if you haven't seen it there is a baneling mine trick so say they are coming to scout you or early marine pressure, burrow a few banelings and autocast their exploding ability so they are basically land mines

  • overlord scouting already an advantage for Zerg players in early game, because think about what other race can do to scout? fly a CC to ur base and scout? LOL!!! u say the marine/sentry shoot away ur ling/OL scout, then why u not complain lings kill off scouting scv/probe, OL speed is completely fine atm, if u think too slow then get a oversee or upgrade speed, since protoss need observer/hallucination or terran use scan rather than mule to scout, there is no free scouting!!!

  • @SoneBlu you forgot to mention that zerg is the only one that cannot wall off so they are "freely scouted" every single match at all times during the match. And the only race with a free scout is terran, OL die every time they scout and observers die to anyone with half a brain and and btw, terrans can scout with buildings if they dont want to scan, there are many options for terran. Learn to play the game noob you sound like your 8, complaining that the most "complete" race is weak.

  • @TheHansome21 first if u want to call me a nub, tell me ur name and ur code we figure that out in game. second u said zerg cant wall off thats right, but how often u see workers run into zerg base after zerg got their lings out (or u a fcking nub dont scout with ur lings and snipe those worker heading ur way) also even with wall off, zerg still can get a run by sometimes to get a full scout. Also u say the terran is only race have free scout, then why change zerg instead of terran. how about tos

  • why did i think this was going to be about making the game performance better?

  • @odinson99m typical terran zzzzz

  • ...What if the Ultra AoE had more depth to it? So it would be slightly more cost effective vs bio, and the *miss* doesn't happen? I actually think one of the best things they might do is just make them smaller, to reduced retarded pathing and work a little better as part of an army.

  • Zai from pacific standerd Time, Korea is 17 hours ahead,Endland is 8 and England is 9 behind Korea.

    ~~the more you know~~

  • Comment removed

  • Zai, love your humor and game play but I'm sick and tired of hearing from zerg players (and I know you're random but you've made your stance on terran quite clear) talk about how terran is OP. It's bullsh. The races are balanced - each has strengths and weakness to exploit. Yet, It's the vocal minority that gets terran nerfed every patch. Love you Zaia but - SPACE MARINES RULE!!!

  • @odinson99m Nowhere do I say marines are OP. Maybe if you'd put aside your pre conceived notions and listen you'd realize I am not complaining about Marine balance, I am complaining that Marines HAVE to be used even 45 minutes in. All I say is there is no hard counter, which is true. This isn't saying they are OP, this is saying they are viable in almost every single game because of this.

  • @odinson99m He's not talking about races being over or under powered, hes talking more about choices: terran players MUST use marines, protoss MUST use sentries/stalkers.  Also, he's talking about which units can't be used. Battlecruisers are really easy to counter and carriers are the same way. In my opinion, this video is not about how strong the race is but about how many choices it has.

  • I just wish they'd fix the ultralisk up alittle. They costs so much but are sorta buggy with pathing and has problems registering hits when enemies are running away. It's the only unit that can be "dodged". wtf?

  • You don't see ravens a lot. Even when the enemy is going dt or has burrow.

  • totally agree zai:

    1. armies made of nothing but marines can win professional tournaments (MKP). You will never see someone win 50 grand by just going lings/zealots.

    2. PvP is very stagnant and P is has by far the best tier 3, if we don't wanna nerf collo against armor or something, make T and Z tier 3 more viable.

    3. I agree and think zerg are gonna get F'ed in the A when they lose changling in HoTS, Z has no other way to scout.

  • I'm from Australia and i watch you... and dammit i demand to know what the time is here!

  • @DevilsPants 5:00 AM on Sunday, I think.

  • Australia sends sad face =(

  • @33erasmus U.S. sends the message that the stream starts at 5 AM your time, you're 5 hours behind Zai... but in actuality you're 19 hours ahead, but 5 hours behind is easier to remember...

  • the overlord accel idea is pretty clever

  • I play random i agree on the most part. The problem i see with the faster overlords is that drops might be a little too strong?

  • @crispyfriedpotato What if it only applies before you get the speed upgrade? Even with the acceleration, you couldn't really do drops with slow overlords.

  • @crispyfriedpotato In my mind I was envisioning the slow OLs only. You'd still want to get speed upgrade because speed OL >>>>> Acceleration OL still.

  • @ZaiSC2K ah yea makes sense its so hard to scout early game esp if youre supposed to be the reactionary race

  • Marines will obliterate tempests as much as they obliterate every protoss air unit.

  • all this video is, is to complain that every race other than zerg is op? blizzard won't take the time of day to recognize this at all.

  • @lilaznb0y33 Did you even watch the video? He's not complaining about the balance aspect -- he's complaining about how things like the deathball and Terran's reliance on marines aren't FUN. For the most part, he's trying to suggest ways to make the game more fun, not more balanced.

  • @lilaznb0y33 I didn't say Deathball or Marines were OP. I said they were boring.  Watch the damn video please. The only issue I had with balance was Zerg scouting.

  • @ZaiSC2K Then don't use them?

    Especially versus Terran, the colossus is heavily falling out of favour, you absolutely don't need this unit and most PvT nowadays is based on massing a gasless T1 ground unit.

  • @ZaiSC2K Did you do the Marine count by number of units or supply of that unit at each of those intervals? I could easily believe absolute numbers of marines at all of those, but in supply, I would think it could be tanks or something else.

  • Im a zerg player who consistently has problems against mech. Roaches and blings dont seem to be enough to break a large ball of rine/tank. Meanwhile, the mech play seems to make it easy for terran to transition into thor to shutdown muta play. Can anyone explain the in-video comment about mech being a bad idea agaist zerg?

  • @ME2Renegon Uhmm... marine/tank is referred to as "bio-mech," and it's the most common style of play in TvZ. "Mech" is pure factory units -- hellions (with blue flame), tanks, and thors.

    I don't think mech is as bad as Zai says, but if they have marines, it's not actually pure mech.

  • @ME2Renegon Mech is Hellion/Tank/Thor, which gets shit all over by Roaches if they are Thor heavy or Mutas if they are not.

  • @ZaiSC2K Magic boxing is easy enough for a few Thor's at least, I do hate how marines are every terran go to unit tho :( Wish zerglings were better against everything because they are a very fun unit :D

  • @ZaiSC2K I disagree about the mech play. I think it is just much much more difficult, and requires more skill then marines, but it certainly is viable. A player like mvp plays mech ingeniously vs Zerg. His methodical strategies are beautiful to watch, and often he crushes his opponents. (Added: Although idk if this is because mech is good, or just that mvp is the best player ever....)

  • @ME2Renegon

    Get 7-8 mutas, mass roaches. Mutas should clean up tanks, roaches good for mech. Don't get outupgraded. The extra 2 roaches are worth the upgrade.

  • overlord acceleration is a good idea but why not just make the overlord move speed upgrade cheaper or lower tech and longer research time?

  • lul @ Windows Vista!

  • @jamieownsuok umm.. no. That's Windows 7

    

  • It's disappointing how much worse the game play of SC2 is compared to SC1. Nice improvements. Hopefully Blizzard takes some advice, because the game needs reworking.

  • hard counter to marines.... Protoss death balls..

  • @halomont That's funny 'cause 'toss death balls take way longer to get out and are way more expensive.

  • @halomont

    So to win ZvT, the Zerg should get colossi.

    Seems legit.

  • all you kids saying hes QQing.. learn to play something els besides terran haha. "0mg im pr0 i haz marines you n00b becuz you tri to pl@y Z3rg"

  • i subsribed due to this vid, amazing

  • psy sent me

  • there is kinda a lot of QQ here..

  • whine whine whine

  • Hydras are bad make them better like with a cool down aoe attack

    ravens i will just use a scan and have a bigger marine army

    there should be more reason to land the viking

    nydus shouldn't be taken out with a sneeze

    make it so energy upgrades don't only add to the starting amount

    make is so people want to use every unit in a super long game not just zerg

  • You mention Québec ... You're my best youtuber now !!!

  • whats with casters using paint pictures all of a sudden! Day9, Zai, <3

  • I wuv U ZAI u remember Brazil :)

  • Lower FF time

  • @BORootY But then that breaks PvP -- lower FF time brings us back to the 4gate vs 4gate wars. Literally no other build would be viable -- you could do a 3/5 stalker rush, but you have to follow it up with 4 gateways anyway.

    That's the difficulty with balancing FF -- Protoss can't survive any early game rush without it, but then it continues to be really good into the lategame.

  • @TheMoocow2009 Like said before, give queens something to break FFs

  • @SeQuoiae1 It's something they could definitely try -- FFs are already useless in late gate PvT (because of ghosts) and PvP (because of collossi/archons), and there's no reason to single out zergs. The only question is if that would be TOO powerful -- if late-game Protoss armies would be viable against Zerg without forcefields. It is something that might be worth a try though.

  • BTW that Toss air unit is AOE Air to Air only not ground AOE so not good against marines, thats what the Colosi is meant for.

  • navier stokes equation!!!!!!

  • Zai I love the overlord idea, that's brilliant. You forgot to mention how easy it is to scout with hallucination too, I would say it's a better scout then a scan because you can cover a much larger area

  • @GuinnessKMF I agree, the overlord idea is so smart

  • @BaconSquishy I can understand how they think that making overlords into better scouts would be a bit OP because they require no research and you're making them anyway, being able to zoom past a base and see everything without the overlord dieing would be bad. Maybe they can make overlords pop like baloons, if they die, they burst open from the back and expend all that gas, propelling their dead bodies forward at a fast rate of speed continuing to provide sight for a little while longer.

  • @GuinnessKMF Thats also a good idea, like that too, with only double speed at max though it probably wouldnt be too hard to still take them out with stutter step micro, maybe it would be with just regular stalkers

  • Tempest won't be good against marines as it's a single shot air-to-ground, AoE only against air.

  • I like the overlord idea

  • Nothing like a little fluid flow momentum equations to state that those hot balls of gas that poo need to move faster.

  • @octoberblu3 Is that what that is? I Googled "physics equation" and picked one that looked cool.

  • @octoberblu3 - Ya, i recognized it instantly too, LOL!! its the Navier-Stokes Equation, very famous in fluid mechanics- mandatory studying for most types of engineering (ME, ChemE), brings me back several years! (And I haven't used it since either, lol)

  • tempest will hit aoe only air .... ground it will hit a focused beam

  • @MrGuybrushTreepwood Says you!

  • Like :)

  • Do part two, d00d.

  • 2nd part, though i would like to see a game too, so go with whichever one you find more fun, then do the other one at a later date.

  • Ultralisk up

    Ovie up

    Marine op

    FFs op

    And drone's dodgeable atk is back

  • @drtony1000 false false , ok , and false

  • 7 pm is great :D

  • speaking of improvements to gameplay, mobile detection should have to be activated. nobody uses hallucination (except for scouting) and burrow is pretty rarely used effectively. why? because once mobile detection is on the field, hallu and burrow is instantly worthless, at almost no effort from your opponent. if you at least had to select your observer or whatever and activate detection for a few sec, you would have to remember to do that in every fight = more chances for hallucination to work.

  • In Japan here, we are 13-14 hrs ahead of US east coast (depending on if you guys are in daylight savings time)

  • Fuckin' SMART

    Seriously, do a part 2 if have more suggestions

  • Can you download these pictures??

  • JAPAN YEAH!!! :D

  • How will tempest be a threat to marines? You can only splash air units, and has a weak ground attack.

  • this is fucking smart

  • Thanks for adding the Brazil time! We love ya Zai!

  • lol "find tupac"

  • Hey, Quebec is actually in the Eastern Time Zone, so its 1pm. Just an FYI

  • im used to translating time zones.

    we kiwis and aussies are always left out.

  • marines are the natural unit to get in any composition because that is where you will dump your minerals into. Roaches can be massed due to their cost. I get that if you have a shit ton of upgraded marines it can eat through a lot of things but you can say that with any unit you mass up. Charge zealots + archons and storms will eat up any bio ball, as will banes. Big fan but its really annoying to hear so much QQ on marines when there are a lot of ways to counter marines.

  • @bmoon11 I'm not QQing about marines being OP. I'm saying it's annoying that they are the basis of almost all Terran games. Maybe the Hellion/Firebat will give Terran a better mineral dump, but unlike Ling/Zealot the Marine is almost a must in every single Terran game no matter how deep. That's boring.

  • @ZaiSC2K

    I'll agree that it can be boring at times but the marine has been such a staple since sc1. It would be pretty crazy to see the new helion/firebat thing.....I wonder if the helion will still cost 0 gas with the new transformation. Always thought that it was funny that a produce a car, you would need minerals and no gas =D

  • Thank you for letting us know when you stream here ;)

  • Zerg need Parasite in Overseer's, put em in a unit and see everything!!!!!!, Even put it on a Scv, He might be selected to build Biscuit Cruisers :D

  • "Not sure if Russia has a 2nd time zone." What? When they say the sun never sets on Russia, its true, there is always day time in some part of Russia, which require at least 8 time zones!

  • @HazreihelUchiha Time zones are determined by the government. Russia today seems to have several time zones, but the soviet empire did only have one. For a specific country this is independent from the geographical zones just like some countries use summer and winter time.

  • @scepticsteve

    not true, soviet union had 9 time zones, and russia had 9 until last year

  • @WarpBerlin I just learned it was even more complicated. In 2010 the "country abolished the time belts that have existed since the Soviet era and introduced time zones."

    But it wasn't determined by geographical time zones in the Soviet Union as far as I know. So there are probably countries today that use arbitrary rules.

  • @HazreihelUchiha Well, china has only 1 timezone i think.

  • @HazreihelUchiha Yeah that has GOT to be sarcasm.. cough right zai...

  • @HazreihelUchiha

    winter time as well?

  • @HazreihelUchiha theres always sun in northern norway too, but only one time zone

  • @xXTheWhiteSharkXx he's masters...

  • @xXTheWhiteSharkXx

    1. Criticism advice from someone who doesn't know my league, that helps your credibility.

    2. This is more improving the gameplay than actual balance.

    3. xXZaiSC2kXx

  • @ZaiSC2K overdoing the xs' abit there?

  • i think to fix protoss u just need a way to be able to defend with inmovile units faster, robo build time and reduced cost could do the trick while its not gonna be good for atacking faster inmortals could solve the PvP 4gate thing

  • link for stream?

  • Find : tupac.

    Zai is the BOSS!

  • Four-gating is considered getto...not sure if complement or sarcasm. 

  • The qq about zerg is strong in you :)

    Love the streaming though <3

  • link to stream?

  • qq

  • I live in Japan. Just sayin'...

  • 50 rines walked into a bar was in the streamchat last night :D

  • tempest has a very weak non aoe ground attack?, just aoe air

    if zergs know what other players are doing they know when to drones, zerg wins

    poke with zerglings at the front, don't just pull them all back, count gas

  • @dodelol count gas ? are you kidding, there's no way to see the gas in most maps when the terran has walled in.

  • fap

  • I WANT YOUR SEMEN ALL OVER MY FACE -Pushover

  • fap

  • Lol the worlds biggest contry in only one time zone :)

  • LOL

  • fap

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