Just do a Google search on this Steven Anderson guy. He's a real nutjob. I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong about everything he says. After all, a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Exd 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. Exd 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
A belief in the possibility of falling away is not a heretical belief. The Calvinistic doctrine of the preserverence of the saints has never been a part of historic Creeds of Christianity.
he uses the scripture that says"if we believe not he yet abideth faithful" but the verse right before says "if we deny him he will deny us"2Tim2:12. so it couldn't be speaking of "eternal security".This is an example of how flimsy the "so-called" scriptural backing of the contrived myth of "eternal security" really is. They have no passages explicitly teaching this so they try to deduce these things by reason and presumptuous takes on pet texts of scripture to the ignoring of all the many others
@Ruddermanspeaks Nope, I don't ignore any of those verses. I see you are ignoring my assertion that you sin every day, which you do... how then are you going to be saved since you sin and sin and sin? What happens if you sin right when you suddenly die? You died DENYING the command of Christ! Guess you're toast!
@ronathanedwards sinless perfection will only be reached in heaven but there is, nevertheless, a narrow gate that few (even few professors of Christ) will find. Many will be found wanting. The blood Christ is only continuously applied to those who walk in the light. 1John 1:7 "if" we walk in the light as he is in the light ...the blood cleanseth us from all sin. Heb 12:14 follow holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.Gal 6:8 he that soweth to the Spirit shall reap life everlasting
@Ruddermanspeaks But if you are not perfect, and you sin everyday (which I would call CONTINUALLY) then by your own standard, you are not saved. If you sin continually you are not walking in the light are you? Or is there another possible understanding to this systematically/Biblically? Because by your definition, you are either walking in the light (perfection) or you are not saved, yet you know you sin every day....
@ronathanedwards again and again you show that you can't the scriptures presented you, yet you attempt to draw me into some system of men. Again, Jesus is not demanding the unattainable on earth (sinless perfection), but He only dwells in and applies his blood to those who are in covenant with Him(bearing fruit John15:2). The call is obedience to the faith Rom1:5.until one has dealt with the issue of obedience to Christ and repent of gross sin (to say the least), they are NOT on believing ground
@Ruddermanspeaks So now your back-peddling and saying that UNTIL one has dealt with obedience and repent of GROSS sin, they are not believing. Were in the Bible does God "label" 'gross' sins and "lesser" sins which "determine" salvation? ANY Sin is an ULTIMATE rebellion and affront to God's Holiness and requires the just wrath of God.
Could you be confusing "false belief/profession" with real belief? I don't think you understand the power and effect of regeneration. Works is an effect of belief
@ronathanedwards there is no back-peddling because you are the one who chose to argue with the strawman of "sinless perfection" that I never espoused.I said freedom from gross sin is"to say the least" of what a man on the narrow road to heaven looks like.regeneration is not God looking at me and only seeing Jesus.He sees me, any lusts, pride, negligence, dryness,worldly mindedness ect.He warned the church in Revelation, "I know thy works".There is a great measure of holiness required Heb12:14
@Ruddermanspeaks Whose holiness are you depending on? You are saved by YOUR holiness? Are you a Catholic?
Regeneration isn't God looking at me and only seeing Jesus? Who said that it was? Don't you even know what the term means? You might want to take a theology class.
Does God save you ACCORDING to your obedience? Or does God save you in order for you to obey? You are equating sanctification verses with salvation, which is a major problem.
@ronathanedwards you said "You are equating sanctification verses with salvation, which is a major problem." But your view is all according to a religious construct that you have been duped into forcing upon the word. you've accepted the comforting presumptions of a pagan as absolute authority in your life,so you don't even seem to notice that you ignore texts or bring loads of presumption onto them.there is no lasting salvation without sanctification.works are not an option(Gal 5:24,Rom2:6-10)
@Ruddermanspeaks No, I just understand the difference between verses that speak of spiritual guarantees (yet can not see) and the verses that are given to explain the FRUITS of a persons spiritual state for the believers understanding of how a believer should live and to understand the deception of peoples hearts to the point that some act like they believe, but fall away because they were not TRULY saved to begin with! 1 John 2:19
@ronathanedwards so no need to speak foolishly about being absolutely perfect when you know that the Biblical command is to walk in the light. you know that He is not requiring the impossible which is to become sinless to the perfect degree. unless you attempting to mock the scriptures. Please don't show your folly and childishness by continuing to respond without addressing those scriptures. Let your silence be your wisdom,as every presumptuous philosophy ceases at the entrance of God's light!
@Ruddermanspeaks The preservation of God's elect is a PROMISE. You are only attacking a straw-man. The doctrine doesn't say "once you make a "confession of belief" you are Saved and then you can go and do any sin you want", it means "In REALITY" those who have been TRULY "regenerated" by the father (born again), they have a new heart, where their new heart inclines them to sanctification for their WHOLE LIFE. You don't obey TO BE saved, you obey because you are saved. Obedience is a FRUIT.
@ronathanedwards do you even feel strange in replying to a person,who repeatedly prods you to actually address scripture and stop retreating into indoctrination and philosophies,without addressing the scriptures?are you playing games or is this the tendency that you have been employing for some time now, which effectively keeps you shielded from the fallacy of the indoctrination by nambypamby "teachers"of God's sovereign grace,to the degree that you don't even notice that you ignore scriptures?
@Ruddermanspeaks No, I'm not retreating at all, I look forward to discussing the scriptures. You brought up 2 Peter 2:20 and am waiting a response to my question to the subject of the context in order for you to see your misunderstanding of the verse.
@ronathanedwards again you are full of philosophy, no scripture,while you are being given scriptures you retort with reason.I quote you a scripture which says "follow peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord",which clearly is saying that holiness is something we must follow, not merely confess that Jesus' holiness saves us, and you retort with your reasoning and philosophy again.it's a clear mandate for a personal holiness.your indoctrination doesn't trump Bible
@Ruddermanspeaks LOL, sorry, no philosophy here. I didn't say that men shouldn't strive to be holy. I ALSO said that a mere confession saves a person. You are not even interacting with what I say, but you constantly go back and attack your misunderstanding of the subject. If you try to understand what I say first, you might have a more reasonable dialog with me. Can you show me ONE verse that EXPLICITLY says that a TRUE BORN AGAIN (regenerated) person can lose his salvation? EXPLICTLY please.
@ronathanedwards you don't seem to even notice that you are dancing around all the clear scriptures given to you, and try to find the one thing you think you have a fighting chance in arguing to focus on that, while you seem to put up a mental block all the other verses that destroy the doctrines of foolish, nambypamby men that you parrot. ETERNAL SECURITY IS A COWARD'S FILTHY DREAM! i you believe that Jesus' holiness alone saves you then you believe in a false limpwristed gospel. Eph5:5
@Ruddermanspeaks They are clear, you are just injecting your presuppositions onto the text. The clear meaning is there are false prophets and apostates within the church.They mislead, take advantage of, and demand laws to be followed. Their state even though they have partook in the blessings of the Church, (fellowship, sacraments... etc) they will fall away and be worse off than before. Regeneration, the state of those who are born-again, isn't even mentioned in the verse you gave NOT EXPLICIT.
@ronathanedwards you want to split hairs over whether or not you said that a mere confession saves a man or not, but you overlook the fact that whatever you believe,if it's not that a person must strive to enter the narrow gate,not merely strive to live holy as merely a good and profitable thing to do,but as an absolute necessity for salvation,then your presumptuous,falsely comforting thoughts have been reproved by the actual Word.you are in danger of having comforting religion without salvation
@Ruddermanspeaks "" striving to live holy... is NECESSARY for salvation"" THAT my friend is salvation BY works.
Again you confuse the concept of Eternal Security which is a SPIRITUAL STATE (which we can't SEE) with the FRUIT of Sanctification (what we CAN see and JUDGE (ourselves) to determine our spiritual state at the moment. You desperately need to take a theology class.
Those who are truly saved, DO live and strive for Holiness. Not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE of salvation.
@Ruddermanspeaks "" striving to live holy... is NECESSARY for salvation"" THAT my friend is salvation BY works.
Again you confuse the concept of Eternal Security which is a SPIRITUAL STATE (which we can't SEE) with the FRUIT of Sanctification (what we CAN see and JUDGE (ourselves) to determine our spiritual state at the moment. You desperately need to take a theology class.
Those who are truly saved, DO live and strive for Holiness. Not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE of salvation.
@ronathanedwards you say"Can you show me ONE verse that EXPLICITLY says that a TRUE BORN AGAIN (regenerated) person can lose his salvation?" but i have already given you 2Pet2:20.to me 2Pet has several subject matters so why don't you just give me your take on the passage? can a person be said to have "escaped" the pollution of the world who was not truly saved? if you want another:Heb6:4-6. if it is impossible to renew them "again" to repentance doesn't that mean they had once truly repented
@Ruddermanspeaks ps: You and i already know that you will never have any kind of rational answer to these verses, so save yourself the shame of trying to twist scripture and, instead, take the effort to grapple with your theological predicament. men will really mess us up if we don't thoroughly scrutinize their presumptuous new systems of doctrines with the actual teachings of the entire Writ. don't let them hide the true love of Jesus and the dreadful fear of the wrath to come from your eyes.
@Ruddermanspeaks You my friend are the one in the theological predicament on many levels. You've fallen prey to the humanist philosophy of self determinate free-will and a works based religion. I understand the true love of Christ and the fear of the wrath of God. The greatest sermon describing the wrath of God was by Jonathan Edwards "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". You might want to listen to it.
@Ruddermanspeaks 2 Pet 2:20. Who's the "They"? Since you don't understand the verse, I'll instruct you. The "they" are the false prophets (verse 1) The whole 20+ verses are referring to them. They were NEVER "born again". Their NATURE stayed the same "they are dogs, sows" They went back to what they always WERE.
Heb 6:4-6 is again discussing false converts/apostates and their fruit and state, it is not an EXPLICIT verse. You are eisegeting the text. Those who are truly saved are secure.
@ronathanedwards 2 Pet is analogous to Jude. i agree the subject is false prophets(like Calvin who preach a broad road).but it never explicitly says that all who fit this category were never born again, and you know this. these are the same that Jude warns about who creep in unawares and pervert the message of God's grace into that which doesn't produce fear and trembling and gives place unto lasciviousness (jude 4)they speak evil of the way of truth2Pet2:2,calling it "works based salvation"
@Ruddermanspeaks But it doesn't explicitly state that they were either. You can't prove that, that's my point. You have to go to explicit verse to explain the implicit, that's what I'm trying to show you. All you are doing is assuming your presuppositions to implied verses. And then you ignore explicit verses like John 10:28 that says they HAVE ETERNAL life. Eternal life means life for EVER (from the present state) which means they can't lose it, else it wouldn't be eternal but temporal.
@ronathanedwards they are false prophets primarily on this issue of cheap grace. this is why Jude and Peter gives the example of God sparing not those who live ungodly.the children of Israel were destroyed after having being saved(Jude5 where He "destroyed them that believed not",showing that disobedience to the command was the same as unbelief. to believe is to obey).the angels who had "eternal life"were cast down to Tartarus. Adam also had eternal life, so why do you parrot this sleight of men
@Ruddermanspeaks ummm you're not proving anything here. God destroys who do not believe...Yep. Those who don't persevere to the end only show that their "belief" in the first place was not a "saving" faith, it's not that difficult of a concept. They fall away BECAUSE they weren't born again, they don't lose salvation BECAUSE they fall away (1 Jo 2:19)
Where in the scriptures does it say angels had "eternal life"? That is a label concerning salvation, get into a theology class.
@ronathanedwards You cant read into Jesus saying that I give them eternal life, to presume that they could never lose it. Why is Timothy (and us) told to lay hold on eternal life if he had it and could never lose it(1Tim 6:12)? John10 is an absolute assurance of having eternal life, but on the condition that we are His sheep. we are his sheep when we are presently obeying and following the Shepard, otherwise we are goats (Gal5:24) its always been about obedience to the faith(Rom1:5)
@Ruddermanspeaks Do you know what an explicit statement is? You CAN NOT presume that they could LOSE IT. That is the very purpose of Jesus' statement! All you are doing is asking questions FROM the text and ALWAYS presume your presuppositions without ANY explicit verses to support your assertion. Jesus said I GIVE (present tense) them ETERNAL LIFE. You are the one reading something into the text, it couldn't be more explicit. The grammar destroys your argument. Eternal is ETERNAL not "might be".
Believing is obeying. In John 10 just a couple verses behind in vs 26 Jesus gives the REASON of why they don't believe.
BECAUSE you are not of my flock. Jesus didn't say "My flock hear my voice "if they are in obedience" and they follow me".. WHEN they are sheep, they are sheep, it's a NATURE change. A sheep doesn't "decide" who will be it's shepherd , the shepherd chooses His sheep. Jesus didn't say my sheep "might follow" me... it say plainly that they follow me. None are lost.
@ronathanedwards now to your shameful display of weakness in willfully twisting scripture: again i will ask you, can it be said that a person has "escaped the pollutions of the world", if he were not regenerated?you avoided that crucial question and attempted to fill space with words that you think overshadow the fact that any babe could see that this is speaking of a person who was once saved. again, Heb6 says "renew them AGAIN unto repentance" so how is it that they had never truly repented?
@Ruddermanspeaks There's your problem..."How is it that they had never ""TRULY"" repented".They never did TRULY repent, they were like pigs who took a bath... they are still pigs, and they return to the mud, because that is their NATURE. Their nature was never changed(born again).Those people who taste the things of God, fellowship with believers partake in the sacraments and then (because of their unchanged heart)bear the fruit of their true nature, that is,denouncing God, crucifying him again
@ronathanedwards again, did the angels have eternal life or temporal life? were they mortal?they left there first estate of having heaven as their eternal abode, through rebellion.this is why they are used as an example to us.you would never read the Bible on your own and come up with such ridiculous presumption that to given the promise of eternal life and the present possession of it on earth,means that you can never lose it. eternal vs temporal is a strawman.the issue is,are we possessing it.
@Ruddermanspeaks Jesus didn't say I give them the "possession" of eternal life. He said he I give the ETERNAL life. It's VERY explicit. The life is ETERNAL. Not a potential of eternalness, not a "conditional" of eternalness, but actual ETERNAL life. That means life for eternity from the present state. The ones TRULY given to the Son WILL (not might have) have eternal life. The angels live forever but that is not "eternal LIFE". ALL live eternally. Life signify's salvation, not awarded to angels
@ronathanedwards My sheep (present) are the only ones giving this promise. if we are "in Him" (John15:2-6) and refuse to abide in the Vine we are cast forth as a branch and burned. Yes He certainly gives a change of nature as His sheep, and no man can pluck them out, but they can always turn back. the flesh will always lust against the Spirit, so we too are still able to walk in sin(we are not yet glorified).He will lose none but many will resist the Holy Ghost, ignore Him and do Him despite.
@Ruddermanspeaks NO, the TRUE sheep will NOT turn back. The TRUE sheep PERSEVERE. The TRUE sheep FOLLOW Him. The True Sheep BELIEVE their whole lives, the TRUE sheep OBEY. This is ALL a PROMISE from the Father, bought by the Son and applied by the Spirit. Those with a new nature CAN NOT turn back. You can't prove otherwise with one EXPLICIT verse. You have still to show me one EXPLICIT verse saying that a BORN AGAIN believer can fall... Not a "false" professor, but an actual regenerated person.
@ronathanedwards He gives a change of nature and hence the judgment on the house of God becomes more severe. to whom much is given...The righteous are scarcely saved,and some will be barely saved as by fire(1Pet4:17,18,1Cor3:15).This implies that they came close to being a cast away.Sorer punishment will be for those who were once saved, for being given such power.As many as received Him, He gave power.when did they receive power, before or after they received Him?after=Calvinism destroyed
@Ruddermanspeaks Your argument fails, you only IMPLY that they are "barely" saved.. and yet you ignore the fact.. "they are STILL SAVED"! There are non that are truly regenerated that can be lost, the Son is FOREVER interceding for them and Jesus' intercession does NOT fail. John 1:12 destroys Calvinism? LOL "AFTER"? Prove that through the syntactical force of the verbs... Don't bother, I'm SURE you don't know Greek. Your WRONG. Relying on MAN are you, for your understanding (translation)?
@ronathanedwards again,2Pet2:20 they "escaped".can you escape the pollutions of the world without being regenerated and growing in holiness?some endure for a time and afterward fall away. whether or not the nature is changed we CAN rebel.Adam didn't have a sin nature,nor did the angels,that fell away.you also refused to specifically focus on the crucial verses in Heb6:6"renew them again to repentance" and Heb10:29"blood of covenant, wherewith he WAS sanctified".you KNOW this destroys Calvinism
@Ruddermanspeaks You imply escaping with regeneration. That's your problem. Many live within the religious realm of the the Church which keeps them from "worldly" living,but their NATURE will eventually lead them TO it. They WILL fall away because like a dog to its vomit, will go to what it is inclined to. Your implication is WRONG. You only build on EXPLICIT verses, you don't. You highlight "WAS" in Heb 10:29, but who was the "HE"? CHRIST was sanctified as our intercessor and high priest. FAIL
@ronathanedwards Christ was sanctified by His own blood? really? who are you trying to fool here? yourself? your own experience shows that you often sin through your choices, so you are not forced to obey. so, if you believe that you are truly regenerate it, evidently, doesn't force you to do right.if you live in sin you will perish.so you admit that you can be truly saved and still have to chose to heed warning verses,right? So if God doesn't force and you have to chose, Calvinism is destroyed.
@Ruddermanspeaks Every priest by the law had to be sanctified by Moses,Aaron etc... Christ obeyed the law (he even was baptized). Christ by His sacrifice sanctified Himself, thus fulfilling the Torah. You again don't understand the work of the Holy Spirit or a Biblical understanding of will.Regeneration changes the INCLINATIONS of the heart. Do you know what "inclinations- desires- affections" means A regenerated man has desires to obey and WILL obey (though NOT perfectly) to the end,thus saved.
@ronathanedwards Your own experience teaches you that you CAN chose to sin.never to presume that you have not departed from that narrow road."examine yourselves whether you be in the faith"."work out your salvation with fear and trembling"."fight the good fight of faith,LAY HOLD TO eternal life"."make you calling and election sure","strive(agonize)to enter though the straight gate"ect i don't hear any Calvinism (or shall i say "fatalism") in these passages, do you?stop kicking against the pricks
@Ruddermanspeaks These verses are the MEANS by which in God's Word to do exactly what He purposed them for,that is;those who are truly saved HEED these verses and they keep them from falling away(thy word Lord have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee)The truly regenerate LOVE these verses. They keep them diligent and keenly aware of the danger of the deceitfulness of ones heart.Only God knows who are TRULY saved,you will know of your own salvation by your perseverance to the END.
@Ruddermanspeaks Also it says "Work OUT your salvation". It doesn't say "work FOR your salvation". Salvation in REALITY is given for those, who are in the Spiritually reality, for ETERNITY. They ARE saved, not "possibly saved". Quit kicking against the pricks? I say quite fighting against Christ's promise, "I GIVE them ETERNAL life and they will NEVER perish", not I give them a possession of eternal life and they "might not" never perish....
@ronathanedwards yes,eternal life is given presently and abides in the true follower. you are not saying anything.the question is: why would we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if we couldn't lose it. to say that the truly born again WILL heed these warning verses is blowing a silly smokescreen, since no one is forced.if one knows he is truly born again by the Spirit's witness, he can be lulled to sleep by your weak doctrine. the gate is narrow and we have to abide.
@Ruddermanspeaks It is the very verse you quote that is the MEANS by which God gives his elect to KEEP them! They follow his Word! They work out their salvation, again you ignore the fact they work it OUT not work FOR their salvation. No one is FORCED. That's correct, however, the new heart that is only given to the Regenerate gives them desires to where they will, for their whole lives, follow Christ. Those who profess but fall, only prove they were not saved in the first place. 1 John 2:19
@ronathanedwards many who are not born again at all and believe in a false God, live a more outwardly moral life that many so-called Christians. they refrain from the wicked television and entertainments of the world and try to walk very close to God, yet they don't know that he was made a man and died for all men. Although their nature is a pig they don't wallow in the mud,so how will you know you are saved in Calvinism simply because you have religion.how do you know that you were born again?
@Ruddermanspeaks "Saved in Calvinism"? I'm saved in Christ. If you mean "according to the doctrines Calvinism", the answer is THE SAME as your answer! You obey Christ, we agree in the "proof" that you are saved, that is, obedience throughout one's life. This is what I'm trying to show you, God's promise that those who are TRULY saved WILL endure. The problem is that is a "spiritual" truth. WE can't SEE that, we have to go by what we experience in life. There isn't a "saved" light on our heads.
@ronathanedwards BECAUSE what is TRUE and REAL in the Spiritual realm can not be SEEN by us, the apostles wrote about the OUTWARD manifestations (fruits) of those who are saved so we can inspect ourselves continually. They also know that there are people who think they are saved (but aren't) and they wrote about them also... they will eventually TURN AWAY or stay self-deceived and find out in the judgement that they weren't born again (away from me, I never KNEW you). The promise however is TRUE
We are both fighting against people that take the TRUE DOCTRINE of OSAS in that there are many (probably most) that take that doctrine and use it to think they can sin like crazy and they are "saved" because they made a "decision" so they are ETERNALLY saved. I AGREE with you that this is WRONG! Their FRUIT bears witness that they are NOT regenerated, they don't OBEY! Their misunderstanding doesn't however disprove the PROMISE of eternal life, but only shows their self-deception.
@ronathanedwards you ignore Heb 6:4 again."it is impossible to renew then "again" unto repentance.if they had never truly repented, this could never be said.i could say a lot to all the smoke screens you're blowing and the half baked,crafty,discordant,twisting of plain texts and of simple reason,but im going to stay on this one point,so that you don't go on and on about anything that you think you have a chance in explaining away, while you continue to dodge this passage,which you know you cant.
@Ruddermanspeaks "If they had never TRULY repented, this could never be said" .You have to prove that assertion, which you can not. You are only going by assumptions. I can easily say this has nothing to do with true repentance, but I have to substantiate my claim with explicit verses to support my assertion. I have explicit verses to back my claim, you however do not. "I give them ETERNAL life" Did these people in Hebrews have life and then lost it? Then Jesus is a liar. No completion Phil 1:6
@ronathanedwards again did Adam have temporal life before he fell? of course not, but he lost it through rebellion. if you had read those verses without the pagan murderer, Calvin, indoctrinating you, you would never read such far reaching presumptions into any of those texts. again, "renew AGAIN to repentance". false repentance is nothing to be renewed to, so the Spirit is speaking of a true repentance. i don't need to prove this.you can read. "again" means they had repented before
@ronathanedwards no one can snatch you out of a fortified submarine but you can certainly open the door and exit. how does such an intelligent man parrot such baby prattle?
@Ruddermanspeaks You miss the obvious context. NO MAN, that person is a man correct? Sorry, pretty explicit. And what would be the outcome if a man could be taken out? He would "perish", yet what was just said? They will NEVER perish. You don't have much of a grasp for the obvious do you? It's not a position of "FALSE" repentance, but just a simple position period, what kind of repentance isn't the point of the context! You need a logic and grammar class, you are grossly misunderstanding things
@ronathanedwards "no man, not even yourself can pluck you out": i'm surprised that you were not too embarrassed to say such a thing. i know you are a smarter than that foolishness. also,you said "what kind of repentance(true or false) isn't the point":what? you are sinking into gross absurdity at this point. what desperateness you are displaying. would you rather kiss Calvin than to be right before Jesus? renew "again" unto repentance shows that they had once repented, correct? be real
@Ruddermanspeaks All I'm doing is allowing the grammar of the text to dictate what is SAID and not interjecting implications and basing doctrine on the implications. NO MAN means plainly NO MAN, it's not rocket science.
They repented? That's a verb, what the text uses is a noun, it's a "state", a "position". It does not say they repented, it especially doesn't say they TRULY repented,you are ASSUMING that, that assumption has to be SUBSTANTIATED, by the text, you can't do that. I trust Jo 10:28
@ronathanedwards you are not allowing the text to dictate,what you are doing is playing games with your soul. you will be reproved for rebelling against the easiest to understand teachings,in order to slavishly hold to a false doctrine that turns grace into lasciviousness,that you have,evidently,made an idol of,and now desperately try exalt over things so clearly stated by God.you are now in a crisis of theology as any Calvinist who seriously studies the word comes to.Edwards broke from Calvin
@Ruddermanspeaks I'm not turning grace into lasciviousness,you grossly misunderstand the doctrine.You blindly follow uneducated leaders and it shows. When you disregard precious promises of Jesus and judge them according to how people use them improperly,you are judging the promises as false on the basis of how people use them to sin. You don't judge the promise according to how people misapply it.Otherwise the atheists judgments on Christianity are true, which is an absurdity, like your claims.
@ronathanedwards you find a verse that doesn't expound on the CONDITIONS and you disregard all that do? Without holiness no man shall see the Lord.unless we're forced, you concede that it's POSSIBLE to not live holy once born again. You still must agonize to enter at the straight gate once born again.but really, how could you shamelessly continue to yap after you revealed yourself by saying that "we don't know if it is a true repentance that God said it would be impossible to renew some to"?
@Ruddermanspeaks There is no condition.The statement is not in a covenantal context and it is NOT in the Subjunctive. It is a statement of FACT. Just like the verses before it. Why didn't they BELIEVE? BECAUSE they were not of HIS flock. They were not of the elect. It's not "they MUST strive to enter the straight gate, it's they WILL strive to enter the straight gate. One is "religion" (your view) one is God glorifying (my view) one is of works, one knowing it is GOD who WORKS IN US to strive.
Why do you continue to imply meanings that are not in the text? YOU don't know if they repented or not, you don't know if they TRULY repented or not. All you are concerned about is your heresy. You harp on an implication and ignore Phil 1:6; Psalm 37:28. How bout Romans 8:29-30? Those whom He predestined, He called, He JUSTIFIED and those whom He justified He GLORIFIED.
ALL that the father predestines are Glorified. Sorry, God doesn't FAIL in His purpose, He accomplishes ALL that he purposes.
@ronathanedwards how is it that you don't know they had repented, if He says "fall away" and "renew them AGAIN" to repentance? you are showing what you are
@Ruddermanspeaks Please, please, please, don't even think for a moment that Jonathan Edwards didn't believe in Limited Atonement. Just hinting at it only displays your utter inability to understand any rational argument from a human being. Don't you even understand the main topic was of that piece? Wicked men were made FOR destruction. God made man for two PURPOSES. One for Glory of His grace and one for glory in His Justice. Jesus didn't die for the reprobate. Edwards totally believed in that.
@ronathanedwards i told you where to find where Edwards says that God will make the wicked useful in their destruction because they won't take advantage of the blood atonement offered them, but you obviously didn't look into it before you responded. but enough about Edwards as he is not the Source. you seem to be way to into men as it is. you obviously have no integrity with scripture, no shame in blatantly twisting it. you are so pressed to kiss men that you would deceive. you are in a crisis
@Ruddermanspeaks As I said before, I know Edwards well. The only one twisting men's intentions (Edwards) and scripture my friend is you. No integrity? I hold back my traditions and keep them in check by allowing the grammar of Scripture dictate the authors intention,you however disregard grammar and ignore the author's intention and turn your back to following simple arguments.You should listen to your own mantra,YOU are in a crisis.I bowed to Scripture and admitted I was wrong, you should also.
@ronathanedwards you didn't admit to being wrong. i saw you rebelliously attempt to distort the CLEAR meaning of "renew again to repentance" and "the blood of Christ whereby he(the backslider) was sanctified". now, i'm not into fallible men, so Edwards doesn't fascinate me. i used Edwards of as an example of a man(like Washer) who could not bring himself to preach Calvinism to its logical conclusions(like AW Pink ect). there are studies that show that he and Wesley were almost analogous.
@Ruddermanspeaks I won't admit being wrong where I am correct. The rebellion lies with you. Repeating your unsubstantiated assertions based on your presuppositions in order to desperately hold to your traditions doesn't make them true. Edwards did preach Calvinism from T to P, you need to go to school. I'm sure there are studies that show Hitler's mein kampf and Wesley were almost analogous also, that doesn't give any validity to the argument or the study.
@ronathanedwards if i'm the one trying to desperately hold to my traditions, again, here is your chance to set me straight. how is it even possible that they had had not once repented, if it says "renew them AGAIN" to repentance? don't keep dodging and shuffling and trying to get side tracked about Edwards. answer the question with integrity
@ronathanedwards AGAIN!how is it that you don't know they had repented, if He says "fall away" and "renew them AGAIN" to repentance? you are showing what you are!
Jonathan Edwards: “Universal redemption must be denied in the very sense of Calvinists themselves, whether predestination is acknowledged or no, if we acknowledge that Christ knows all things. For if Christ certainly knows all things to come, he certainly knew, when he died, that there were such and such men that would never be the better for his death. And therefore, it was impossible that he should die with an intent to make them (particular persons) happy.
@ron John 10:28there is many times a stated "if"and always an implied "if",when it comes to God's promises of salvation or blessings.lose the false Calvinistic lenses (telling you that God always gets what He wants).Joshua1:5 "no man shall be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life", yet when there was sin in the camp they were whipped by their enemies.He didn't give the conditions in that verse but they are always clearly there.we must abide (John15:2-6which you also ignore)
@ronathanedwards if you want to say repentance is a state,you are still saying absolutely nothing. then renew them "again" means that they were once in a state of repentance. it couldn't have been a false repentance because God would never want to bring us to that state. any child could understand this and i'm sure you do. now which way will you go?will you be weak and act unstable as water and continue to play like you can't see the undeniable, to your own peril, or will you be true?
@Ruddermanspeaks Your implications are getting tiresome. You can not support your answer with explicit verses. You have to make up stories and make silly assertions that only deceive yourself. "It couldn't have been false repentance"? Says who? Stop making yourself the standard and make the grammar of scripture the standard. Eternal life is ETERNAL. They will NEVER perish, means they will NEVER perish. He who began a good work in you will be FAITHFUL to complete it. U don't trust in God, to bad.
@ronathanedwards why would God say "it is impossible to renew them again to a false repentance". only the devil desires a false repentance. the idiot in this video makes more sense than you now. they shall never perish does mean they shall never perish. you know there is an implied condition on these promises of eternal life. we must be His sheep (of God, not of the devil). All the other STATED conditions in the Bible also apply. Gal 6 He that sows to the Spirit shall reap eternal life
@Ruddermanspeaks There is no implied condition at all. It's a simple explicit verse. It's embarrassing that you imply EVERYTHING, even explicit verses! Jesus died on a cross,does that mean He maybe died on a table? Geez, I GIVE them eternal life, they will NEVER perish.These are black and white explicit verses according to GRAMMAR. You desperately need to go to a 4th grade grammar school.They will NOT perish, NO CONDITION, it is a simple statement of fact.Your just full of humanistic philosophy.
@ronathanedwards you have already admitted that you are not forced, so any promise that requires obedience is only sure when you lay hold on it by obedience. and if we are not forced it is absurd to say we always will persevere if we have been given the new nature internally.very simple stuff, but you are rebelliously,irrationally holding to the devil's presumption fed you by a murderous tyrant and other sponges who parrot these delusions fed them by seminaries. you still ignore John15:2-6
@Ruddermanspeaks "if we are not forced it is absurd to say we always will persevere if we have been given the new nature" You are incorrect. I NEW heart, of flesh, will not turn away. I will abide. It will consistently (though imperfectly) abide in Christ, why? BECAUSE God promised it and God works IN us through his Spirit to do it. Jo 15? lol I don't ignore it like you do with Psalm 37, Jo 10:28, Phil. 1:6. God will COMPLETE it.Those who abide (by the work of the H.S.) is GODS work, no failure
@ronathanedwards you have already admitted that you are not forced, so any promise that requires obedience is only inherited when you lay hold on it by obedience. and if we are not forced it is absurd to say we always will persevere if we have been given the new nature internally.very simple stuff, but you are rebelliously,irrationally holding to the devil's presumption fed you by a murderous tyrant and other sponges who parrot these delusions fed them by seminaries. you still ignore John15:2-6
He who began a good work in you, "might" be faithful to complete it.
I "might" give them Eternal life"... they will NEVER perish (maybe)... NO ONE will snatch them out of my hand (except himself)
Lord Jesus Christ, who "MIGHT" sustain you to the end... (if you fall away, Jesus FAILS? hmmm) "And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand". MAKE him stand or make him standable?
he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, Ps 37:28. "might be"?... nope...
It's impossible to "regenerate" them again? That's what you want it to say. It doesn't say they were truly repentant in the first place, secondly the author is saying it is impossible for them to be "restored" TO repentance, that just means they are in a position to where they can't even be in a position to repent. It never mentions the true STATE at all. You are only making an unfounded assertion and ignoring the promises of Christ for those who DO believe. I'll take Christ's promises.
@ronathanedwards a Christian til the end is one who trades with His goods and becomes more and more holy,in a way that is supernatural, not merely what natural men can do.we can be in Christ (John15:2-6)and be cast forth as a branch and burned(explicit). the gate is narrow.unless one has a serious fear of being a cast away,like Paul had,he is liable to become one.grace is not irresistible,it can be receive in vain(2Cor6:1)Steven said"ye do always resist the Holy Ghost).you avoided Heb6:4 again
@Ruddermanspeaks Again, the Holy Spirit CAN be resisted. You don't understand what Calvinists mean by "irresistible grace". I notice you say SUPERNATURAL, that means WE don't do it, the Spirit does, it is that same "supernatural" work of the Spirit that KEEPS His elect to the end (that's the PROMISE!).They are SEALED! There is not "unsealing".
The elect can not BUT love God, the Spirit TO THEM is irresistible with the heart change, they freely love and choose to obey Christ (imperfectly) forever
@ronathanedwards Calvin taught that the truly born again can't lose their salvation,although they live in sin. you say that he can't live in sin.these are both wrong. if you admit that you have to choose(although you speak of not wanting to because of regeneration),you admit that you are not forced.if you agree that you can't live in sin and be saved,and you are not forced to obey and will sin some after conversion,how is it that you think you cant sin enough to be a cast away.You are not forced
@Ruddermanspeaks Have you actually read Calvin? We ALL (including you) live in sin. That's what I proved to you before, you sin every day. Calvin MEANS that, though we are born again, we (though not perfect because we still have a sin nature warring against us) sin, but we have new hearts that love God and are now inclined to obey God and TRUST in Him and will continually do so (though not perfectly) till the end (because we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit).
@ronathanedwards Your own experience teaches you that you CAN chose to sin.never presume that you have not departed from that narrow road."examine yourselves whether you be in the faith"."work out your salvation with fear and trembling"."fight the good fight of faith,LAY HOLD TO eternal life"."make you calling and election sure","strive(agonize)to enter though the straight gate"ect i don't hear any Calvinism (or shall i say "fatalism") in these passages, do you?stop kicking against the pricks
@ronathanedwards again,1Pet2:is not on direct subject with 2Pet2:20 or any of the other scriptures i quoted, which you can't address.Do you fool yourself into thinking that you are not in crisis of theology, when you know you can't reconcile what man has taught you with the actual teachings of scriptures,by filling space with words that are off subject or by trying to avoid the dealing with scriptures,by drawing the conversation into a nice sounding system of thinking? who are you fooling here?
@Ruddermanspeaks UMMM.... Sorry, I meant "2" Peter 2:20 and it is DIRECTLY relevant to the verse. MAN has taught me? I don't think so, I was an assisting Pastor for 9 years teaching exactly what you believe. I know the arguments very well, it's not till I took the scriptures for what they GRAMMATICALLY dictate for themselves did I come to the conclusion that I was (and you are) completely wrong, believing in tradition of heretics. Now, the subject of SECOND Pet.2 please...
@ronathanedwards furthermore, if you had an intepretation for 2Pet 2:20 that showed that it was not concerning people who were once truly saved and fell away, you would have given it by know, but you know very well you don't, so who are you fooling here, yourself?
@Ruddermanspeaks I do, I'm just asking YOU to show me the subject of the context of 2 Pet. 2. Since you use 2:20 as a proof text, I assume you know the subject of the context. So, what is it? You've spent much time accusing me of not "knowing" the texts, I would think it odd that you won't tell me what you know. It's not even that hard of a question, really.... Who is Peter referring to in verse one of the chapter?
@Ruddermanspeaks I'm not mocking anything. If He doesn't require sinless perfection, then where is the "dividing line" between obey "enough" for salvation and not obeying enough? When do you know? Your legalistic mantra of obedience doesn't (and can't) explain this. If you think that I (or Calvinism) promotes "doing whatever you want" because one "believes and is now saved" is grossly misunderstanding the doctrine. You might want to study the subject a little further.
@ronathanedwards what we know of the dividing line between "obeying enough" or "not obeying enough" for salvation is that it is extremely narrow. few will be saved(even among seekers). we must press into the kingdom of God(check out Edwards' sermon"pressing into the kingdom of God" on youtube).we must abide in the Vine, once in the Vine by bearing fruit or be cut off and burned John 15:6. See, flesh wants a false comfort and assurance but we have to make our elect sure with fear and trembling
@Ruddermanspeaks Your asking ME to check out Jonathan Edwards? Don't you see the play on his name with mine? I've taken several classes ON Jonathan.... I know the sermon well. You are stressing to make our ELECTION sure, I agree. But for WHAT? Those who strive is the EVIDENCE that you have been saved, it isn't FOR salvation. I believe what Jesus said concerning His elect "No one can snatch them out of my hand". I don't USE that for a crutch to do what I want, but a promise of my persevering.
The dividing line is narrow, and how do you know what side of the line YOU are on? You can't even know that you yourself is saved, what a sad state. I wish you could trust in Christ's promises like John 10:28-29 and Phil. 1:6. "I GIVE them ETERNAL life, not "I MIGHT give them eternal life. Once someone is TRULY saved, it is for..ETERNITY from the point of salvation. If God STARTS a good work in you (salvation) HE is faithful to COMPLETE it. I trust in those everyday to help me persevere.
Wesley brought it like a man of God must.this guy is a foolish man as are all who believe that you can't lose salvation.this man has another video trashing Calvinism but Calvin was the inventor of the wicked doctrine of "eternal security" What would be subversive about believing you HAD to live holy (Heb 12:14)as opposed to it being a good idea to live holy,even if it was not true? holiness or hell preaching angers some cowards more than anything. eternal security is a weak man's fantasy!
@Ruddermanspeaks Again you have a complete misunderstanding of the concept. You might want to read some reformed theology books on the subject so you can discuss this topic and the concepts that are actually held on not attacking straw-men, it's just vanity.
@preacherboy: that's exactly what I was thinking!! This man is ridiculous!!! I hope God has mercy on him when he stands before the throne of God ( and I bet ya John Wesley is gonna e close by watching! Lol)
wow is this "man" for real? And he is suppose to be a man of God? where is the fruits of the Spirit? he actually thinks he can say anything against a man who actaully had God work thru him,I dont see anything of God in this man.its "men" like him that cause "christians " so much problems and give gthem a bad name. And he needs to worry if he thinks he cant loose his salvation.Forgive me but I would question if he has ever had it!
One is correct (You know which one I think is.. ;-) ) one is in error.
One who believes that one is free to choose yet is then BOUND or enslaved to His choice and cannot loose his salvation is just plain theological ignorance.
I could only wish to be half the man that Wesley was.
@ronathanedwards Amen... OSAS (once saved always saved) based on "decisional regeneration" is rubbish, the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saint is the comfort of knowing that the God that is powerful enough to save me is the God that is powerful enough to keep me.
@EverydayRevival "osas" was the invention of a murderous dictator who had a special opinion on EVERYTHING in Geneva. know wonder that he could find a way to form a special new "gospel".what if God chose to allow you,by His empowerment, to choose to be saved and kept, by you surrendering and obeying His commands? would that make Him a God not powerful enough to keep you?Yes,He could force.He knows forced love is no love at all? 1John 1:7If we walk in the light, the blood...CLEARLY CONDITIONAL
@Ruddermanspeaks Once saved Always saved is entirely different than the Perseverance of the Saints that was taught by the Lord Jesus Himself when he says that all that the Father gives Him He will raise up at the last day, and no one can pluck us from His hand, He who has heard and believed has eternal life already.
Apostle Paul as well...
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
@ronathanedwards i suppose you believe that you can't choose to live in sin?if you "decide" to live in sin you will be lost,after being once saved 2Pet2:20.It doesn't matter if a man is consistent if he is in utter error,like Calvin.To believe that Adam was forced to sin, and most are born into this sinful world with no hope of God ever extending any grace to save them,yet they are burned forever for doing what they were forced to do, is utter lunacy unless you have been thoroughly brainwashed.
@Ruddermanspeaks You sin everyday... most likely every minute, Rudderman, so, I guess you are lost then. Repent! You misunderstand 2 Pet 2, I guess that makes you a false teacher who Peter, ironically, was describing!Adam wasn't forced, keep arguing against strawmen, you can debate against them all you like, but it gets you nowhere with those who want to discuss God's Word rationally.
Brainwashed? Sorry, I just believe in what the Bible says, not what heretical Arminians try to brainwash with.
@ronathanedwards it's odd that fill so much space with words, but you don't speak to 2Pet 2:20. you only hint that you have an answer to this text that seems to destroy "eternal security", yet you don't give it. not surprising, though, because you don't have one
@ronathanedwards read reformed books for understanding?really? you don't even attempt to deal with 2Pet 2:20 and speak of 1Pet 2:1(what?).you are now in a serious crisis and are venting empty words in weakness.it clear you CAN'T address this scripture nor many others any babe could give you because your indoctrination simply doesn't mesh with scripture.Calvin was a brutal dictator in Geneva. doesn't that cause great pause in receiving this reprobates words as unquestioned authority in your life?
It's fraudulent for this "pastor" to make the claim Wesley was pro-homo. Fraud seems to be par for the course for "pastor" anderson. As a baptist on youtube said, John Wesley was a better Christian than 90% of the baptist today.
He twists 2Tim 2:13, saying if we stop believing, we remain saved. Verse 12 says the same thing Jesus warned in Matt 10:33: "if we deny Him, He also WILL deny us", Paul is saying that even if we don't believe God will deny us if we deny Him, it happens ANYWAY. God does not lie. Many today, (like the preacher in the video) deny that this can happen. Jesus also told his own disciples "you are the salt of the earth, but if the salt loses it's savor, it's good for nothing but to be cast out".
I am a Methodist. John Wesley, as well as Methodist past and present believe in the doctrine of Free Will as opposed to Eternal Security. The first place we see this is in the Garden of Eden where Eve made a "choice" to eat the forbidden fruit as did Adam.
He doesn't like Calvinism or Wesleyanism...He doesn't like anything but the KJV and burns NIV bibles on a grill....I got two verses for him and he can read them in the KJV......1 Timothy 4:1....Matthew 7:23.
I am so glad that you are able to see these Godly men as heretics and are ready are to take time away from a message from God to your congregation to rag on Christians to your congregation. Was Paul the apostle also a heretic? He wrote in Hebrews 5 and 6 about those who have fallen away from God even after becoming saved, and how hard it is for them to again come to faith in Jesus.
you wouldnt be standing there right now preaching if it wasnt for people like Luther and Wesley and Billy Grahmn, great reformers who led massive Christian revivals, these people led people to Christ you turn people from Christ. YOu are a Viper if you were saved once I highly doubt you are now!
friend you peach about others as though YOU know the whole truth all the truth? you are still very young and it shows by how you preach your fire is Good. but try and focus it on loveing people where there at. and draw them to Jesus. we all are being sanctified who hunger for the master. remember you are too. blessings
This preacher is way off and not all Baptists act like this. No church is perfect nor true but the word of God. We the people are what make the church. In every denomination you will find bad apples that will give us Christians a bad name like the Westboro Baptist Church aka the hate group, for example. I also believe you can lose your salvation if you don't endure til the end.
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturea will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Galatians 6:7
A gift is free. And no, God doesn't take it back. But a funny little thing about a gift is that I can give it back to whoever gave it to me. This man preaches in his own name and by that he is the spirit of anti christ. I am a baptist, and I am fundamental. He is a baptist by name only. If you listen to his other tripe, he says that you don't have to know the law. Paul said that if it weren't for the law, we wouldn't have known sin... Get out of man's books, and get into THE BOOK!
dude..
NewReason 1 month ago
Just do a Google search on this Steven Anderson guy. He's a real nutjob. I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong about everything he says. After all, a stopped clock is right twice a day.
CHaLuPasRtAsTY 4 months ago
Exd 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. Exd 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
spiritfilledson 4 months ago
Blessed is the man who sitteth not in the seat of the scornful.
prairiemark 4 months ago
A belief in the possibility of falling away is not a heretical belief. The Calvinistic doctrine of the preserverence of the saints has never been a part of historic Creeds of Christianity.
prairiemark 4 months ago
he uses the scripture that says"if we believe not he yet abideth faithful" but the verse right before says "if we deny him he will deny us"2Tim2:12. so it couldn't be speaking of "eternal security".This is an example of how flimsy the "so-called" scriptural backing of the contrived myth of "eternal security" really is. They have no passages explicitly teaching this so they try to deduce these things by reason and presumptuous takes on pet texts of scripture to the ignoring of all the many others
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Nope, I don't ignore any of those verses. I see you are ignoring my assertion that you sin every day, which you do... how then are you going to be saved since you sin and sin and sin? What happens if you sin right when you suddenly die? You died DENYING the command of Christ! Guess you're toast!
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards sinless perfection will only be reached in heaven but there is, nevertheless, a narrow gate that few (even few professors of Christ) will find. Many will be found wanting. The blood Christ is only continuously applied to those who walk in the light. 1John 1:7 "if" we walk in the light as he is in the light ...the blood cleanseth us from all sin. Heb 12:14 follow holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.Gal 6:8 he that soweth to the Spirit shall reap life everlasting
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks But if you are not perfect, and you sin everyday (which I would call CONTINUALLY) then by your own standard, you are not saved. If you sin continually you are not walking in the light are you? Or is there another possible understanding to this systematically/Biblically? Because by your definition, you are either walking in the light (perfection) or you are not saved, yet you know you sin every day....
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards again and again you show that you can't the scriptures presented you, yet you attempt to draw me into some system of men. Again, Jesus is not demanding the unattainable on earth (sinless perfection), but He only dwells in and applies his blood to those who are in covenant with Him(bearing fruit John15:2). The call is obedience to the faith Rom1:5.until one has dealt with the issue of obedience to Christ and repent of gross sin (to say the least), they are NOT on believing ground
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks So now your back-peddling and saying that UNTIL one has dealt with obedience and repent of GROSS sin, they are not believing. Were in the Bible does God "label" 'gross' sins and "lesser" sins which "determine" salvation? ANY Sin is an ULTIMATE rebellion and affront to God's Holiness and requires the just wrath of God.
Could you be confusing "false belief/profession" with real belief? I don't think you understand the power and effect of regeneration. Works is an effect of belief
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards there is no back-peddling because you are the one who chose to argue with the strawman of "sinless perfection" that I never espoused.I said freedom from gross sin is"to say the least" of what a man on the narrow road to heaven looks like.regeneration is not God looking at me and only seeing Jesus.He sees me, any lusts, pride, negligence, dryness,worldly mindedness ect.He warned the church in Revelation, "I know thy works".There is a great measure of holiness required Heb12:14
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Whose holiness are you depending on? You are saved by YOUR holiness? Are you a Catholic?
Regeneration isn't God looking at me and only seeing Jesus? Who said that it was? Don't you even know what the term means? You might want to take a theology class.
Does God save you ACCORDING to your obedience? Or does God save you in order for you to obey? You are equating sanctification verses with salvation, which is a major problem.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards you said "You are equating sanctification verses with salvation, which is a major problem." But your view is all according to a religious construct that you have been duped into forcing upon the word. you've accepted the comforting presumptions of a pagan as absolute authority in your life,so you don't even seem to notice that you ignore texts or bring loads of presumption onto them.there is no lasting salvation without sanctification.works are not an option(Gal 5:24,Rom2:6-10)
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks No, I just understand the difference between verses that speak of spiritual guarantees (yet can not see) and the verses that are given to explain the FRUITS of a persons spiritual state for the believers understanding of how a believer should live and to understand the deception of peoples hearts to the point that some act like they believe, but fall away because they were not TRULY saved to begin with! 1 John 2:19
You deny the promise and make the fruits a LAW.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards so no need to speak foolishly about being absolutely perfect when you know that the Biblical command is to walk in the light. you know that He is not requiring the impossible which is to become sinless to the perfect degree. unless you attempting to mock the scriptures. Please don't show your folly and childishness by continuing to respond without addressing those scriptures. Let your silence be your wisdom,as every presumptuous philosophy ceases at the entrance of God's light!
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks The preservation of God's elect is a PROMISE. You are only attacking a straw-man. The doctrine doesn't say "once you make a "confession of belief" you are Saved and then you can go and do any sin you want", it means "In REALITY" those who have been TRULY "regenerated" by the father (born again), they have a new heart, where their new heart inclines them to sanctification for their WHOLE LIFE. You don't obey TO BE saved, you obey because you are saved. Obedience is a FRUIT.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards do you even feel strange in replying to a person,who repeatedly prods you to actually address scripture and stop retreating into indoctrination and philosophies,without addressing the scriptures?are you playing games or is this the tendency that you have been employing for some time now, which effectively keeps you shielded from the fallacy of the indoctrination by nambypamby "teachers"of God's sovereign grace,to the degree that you don't even notice that you ignore scriptures?
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks No, I'm not retreating at all, I look forward to discussing the scriptures. You brought up 2 Peter 2:20 and am waiting a response to my question to the subject of the context in order for you to see your misunderstanding of the verse.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards again you are full of philosophy, no scripture,while you are being given scriptures you retort with reason.I quote you a scripture which says "follow peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord",which clearly is saying that holiness is something we must follow, not merely confess that Jesus' holiness saves us, and you retort with your reasoning and philosophy again.it's a clear mandate for a personal holiness.your indoctrination doesn't trump Bible
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks LOL, sorry, no philosophy here. I didn't say that men shouldn't strive to be holy. I ALSO said that a mere confession saves a person. You are not even interacting with what I say, but you constantly go back and attack your misunderstanding of the subject. If you try to understand what I say first, you might have a more reasonable dialog with me. Can you show me ONE verse that EXPLICITLY says that a TRUE BORN AGAIN (regenerated) person can lose his salvation? EXPLICTLY please.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards you don't seem to even notice that you are dancing around all the clear scriptures given to you, and try to find the one thing you think you have a fighting chance in arguing to focus on that, while you seem to put up a mental block all the other verses that destroy the doctrines of foolish, nambypamby men that you parrot. ETERNAL SECURITY IS A COWARD'S FILTHY DREAM! i you believe that Jesus' holiness alone saves you then you believe in a false limpwristed gospel. Eph5:5
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks They are clear, you are just injecting your presuppositions onto the text. The clear meaning is there are false prophets and apostates within the church.They mislead, take advantage of, and demand laws to be followed. Their state even though they have partook in the blessings of the Church, (fellowship, sacraments... etc) they will fall away and be worse off than before. Regeneration, the state of those who are born-again, isn't even mentioned in the verse you gave NOT EXPLICIT.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards you want to split hairs over whether or not you said that a mere confession saves a man or not, but you overlook the fact that whatever you believe,if it's not that a person must strive to enter the narrow gate,not merely strive to live holy as merely a good and profitable thing to do,but as an absolute necessity for salvation,then your presumptuous,falsely comforting thoughts have been reproved by the actual Word.you are in danger of having comforting religion without salvation
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks "" striving to live holy... is NECESSARY for salvation"" THAT my friend is salvation BY works.
Again you confuse the concept of Eternal Security which is a SPIRITUAL STATE (which we can't SEE) with the FRUIT of Sanctification (what we CAN see and JUDGE (ourselves) to determine our spiritual state at the moment. You desperately need to take a theology class.
Those who are truly saved, DO live and strive for Holiness. Not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE of salvation.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
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@Ruddermanspeaks "" striving to live holy... is NECESSARY for salvation"" THAT my friend is salvation BY works.
Again you confuse the concept of Eternal Security which is a SPIRITUAL STATE (which we can't SEE) with the FRUIT of Sanctification (what we CAN see and JUDGE (ourselves) to determine our spiritual state at the moment. You desperately need to take a theology class.
Those who are truly saved, DO live and strive for Holiness. Not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE of salvation.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards you say"Can you show me ONE verse that EXPLICITLY says that a TRUE BORN AGAIN (regenerated) person can lose his salvation?" but i have already given you 2Pet2:20.to me 2Pet has several subject matters so why don't you just give me your take on the passage? can a person be said to have "escaped" the pollution of the world who was not truly saved? if you want another:Heb6:4-6. if it is impossible to renew them "again" to repentance doesn't that mean they had once truly repented
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks ps: You and i already know that you will never have any kind of rational answer to these verses, so save yourself the shame of trying to twist scripture and, instead, take the effort to grapple with your theological predicament. men will really mess us up if we don't thoroughly scrutinize their presumptuous new systems of doctrines with the actual teachings of the entire Writ. don't let them hide the true love of Jesus and the dreadful fear of the wrath to come from your eyes.
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks You my friend are the one in the theological predicament on many levels. You've fallen prey to the humanist philosophy of self determinate free-will and a works based religion. I understand the true love of Christ and the fear of the wrath of God. The greatest sermon describing the wrath of God was by Jonathan Edwards "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". You might want to listen to it.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks 2 Pet 2:20. Who's the "They"? Since you don't understand the verse, I'll instruct you. The "they" are the false prophets (verse 1) The whole 20+ verses are referring to them. They were NEVER "born again". Their NATURE stayed the same "they are dogs, sows" They went back to what they always WERE.
Heb 6:4-6 is again discussing false converts/apostates and their fruit and state, it is not an EXPLICIT verse. You are eisegeting the text. Those who are truly saved are secure.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards 2 Pet is analogous to Jude. i agree the subject is false prophets(like Calvin who preach a broad road).but it never explicitly says that all who fit this category were never born again, and you know this. these are the same that Jude warns about who creep in unawares and pervert the message of God's grace into that which doesn't produce fear and trembling and gives place unto lasciviousness (jude 4)they speak evil of the way of truth2Pet2:2,calling it "works based salvation"
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks But it doesn't explicitly state that they were either. You can't prove that, that's my point. You have to go to explicit verse to explain the implicit, that's what I'm trying to show you. All you are doing is assuming your presuppositions to implied verses. And then you ignore explicit verses like John 10:28 that says they HAVE ETERNAL life. Eternal life means life for EVER (from the present state) which means they can't lose it, else it wouldn't be eternal but temporal.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards they are false prophets primarily on this issue of cheap grace. this is why Jude and Peter gives the example of God sparing not those who live ungodly.the children of Israel were destroyed after having being saved(Jude5 where He "destroyed them that believed not",showing that disobedience to the command was the same as unbelief. to believe is to obey).the angels who had "eternal life"were cast down to Tartarus. Adam also had eternal life, so why do you parrot this sleight of men
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks ummm you're not proving anything here. God destroys who do not believe...Yep. Those who don't persevere to the end only show that their "belief" in the first place was not a "saving" faith, it's not that difficult of a concept. They fall away BECAUSE they weren't born again, they don't lose salvation BECAUSE they fall away (1 Jo 2:19)
Where in the scriptures does it say angels had "eternal life"? That is a label concerning salvation, get into a theology class.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards You cant read into Jesus saying that I give them eternal life, to presume that they could never lose it. Why is Timothy (and us) told to lay hold on eternal life if he had it and could never lose it(1Tim 6:12)? John10 is an absolute assurance of having eternal life, but on the condition that we are His sheep. we are his sheep when we are presently obeying and following the Shepard, otherwise we are goats (Gal5:24) its always been about obedience to the faith(Rom1:5)
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Do you know what an explicit statement is? You CAN NOT presume that they could LOSE IT. That is the very purpose of Jesus' statement! All you are doing is asking questions FROM the text and ALWAYS presume your presuppositions without ANY explicit verses to support your assertion. Jesus said I GIVE (present tense) them ETERNAL LIFE. You are the one reading something into the text, it couldn't be more explicit. The grammar destroys your argument. Eternal is ETERNAL not "might be".
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
Believing is obeying. In John 10 just a couple verses behind in vs 26 Jesus gives the REASON of why they don't believe.
BECAUSE you are not of my flock. Jesus didn't say "My flock hear my voice "if they are in obedience" and they follow me".. WHEN they are sheep, they are sheep, it's a NATURE change. A sheep doesn't "decide" who will be it's shepherd , the shepherd chooses His sheep. Jesus didn't say my sheep "might follow" me... it say plainly that they follow me. None are lost.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards now to your shameful display of weakness in willfully twisting scripture: again i will ask you, can it be said that a person has "escaped the pollutions of the world", if he were not regenerated?you avoided that crucial question and attempted to fill space with words that you think overshadow the fact that any babe could see that this is speaking of a person who was once saved. again, Heb6 says "renew them AGAIN unto repentance" so how is it that they had never truly repented?
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks There's your problem..."How is it that they had never ""TRULY"" repented".They never did TRULY repent, they were like pigs who took a bath... they are still pigs, and they return to the mud, because that is their NATURE. Their nature was never changed(born again).Those people who taste the things of God, fellowship with believers partake in the sacraments and then (because of their unchanged heart)bear the fruit of their true nature, that is,denouncing God, crucifying him again
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards again, did the angels have eternal life or temporal life? were they mortal?they left there first estate of having heaven as their eternal abode, through rebellion.this is why they are used as an example to us.you would never read the Bible on your own and come up with such ridiculous presumption that to given the promise of eternal life and the present possession of it on earth,means that you can never lose it. eternal vs temporal is a strawman.the issue is,are we possessing it.
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Jesus didn't say I give them the "possession" of eternal life. He said he I give the ETERNAL life. It's VERY explicit. The life is ETERNAL. Not a potential of eternalness, not a "conditional" of eternalness, but actual ETERNAL life. That means life for eternity from the present state. The ones TRULY given to the Son WILL (not might have) have eternal life. The angels live forever but that is not "eternal LIFE". ALL live eternally. Life signify's salvation, not awarded to angels
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards My sheep (present) are the only ones giving this promise. if we are "in Him" (John15:2-6) and refuse to abide in the Vine we are cast forth as a branch and burned. Yes He certainly gives a change of nature as His sheep, and no man can pluck them out, but they can always turn back. the flesh will always lust against the Spirit, so we too are still able to walk in sin(we are not yet glorified).He will lose none but many will resist the Holy Ghost, ignore Him and do Him despite.
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks NO, the TRUE sheep will NOT turn back. The TRUE sheep PERSEVERE. The TRUE sheep FOLLOW Him. The True Sheep BELIEVE their whole lives, the TRUE sheep OBEY. This is ALL a PROMISE from the Father, bought by the Son and applied by the Spirit. Those with a new nature CAN NOT turn back. You can't prove otherwise with one EXPLICIT verse. You have still to show me one EXPLICIT verse saying that a BORN AGAIN believer can fall... Not a "false" professor, but an actual regenerated person.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards He gives a change of nature and hence the judgment on the house of God becomes more severe. to whom much is given...The righteous are scarcely saved,and some will be barely saved as by fire(1Pet4:17,18,1Cor3:15).This implies that they came close to being a cast away.Sorer punishment will be for those who were once saved, for being given such power.As many as received Him, He gave power.when did they receive power, before or after they received Him?after=Calvinism destroyed
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Your argument fails, you only IMPLY that they are "barely" saved.. and yet you ignore the fact.. "they are STILL SAVED"! There are non that are truly regenerated that can be lost, the Son is FOREVER interceding for them and Jesus' intercession does NOT fail. John 1:12 destroys Calvinism? LOL "AFTER"? Prove that through the syntactical force of the verbs... Don't bother, I'm SURE you don't know Greek. Your WRONG. Relying on MAN are you, for your understanding (translation)?
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards again,2Pet2:20 they "escaped".can you escape the pollutions of the world without being regenerated and growing in holiness?some endure for a time and afterward fall away. whether or not the nature is changed we CAN rebel.Adam didn't have a sin nature,nor did the angels,that fell away.you also refused to specifically focus on the crucial verses in Heb6:6"renew them again to repentance" and Heb10:29"blood of covenant, wherewith he WAS sanctified".you KNOW this destroys Calvinism
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks You imply escaping with regeneration. That's your problem. Many live within the religious realm of the the Church which keeps them from "worldly" living,but their NATURE will eventually lead them TO it. They WILL fall away because like a dog to its vomit, will go to what it is inclined to. Your implication is WRONG. You only build on EXPLICIT verses, you don't. You highlight "WAS" in Heb 10:29, but who was the "HE"? CHRIST was sanctified as our intercessor and high priest. FAIL
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards Christ was sanctified by His own blood? really? who are you trying to fool here? yourself? your own experience shows that you often sin through your choices, so you are not forced to obey. so, if you believe that you are truly regenerate it, evidently, doesn't force you to do right.if you live in sin you will perish.so you admit that you can be truly saved and still have to chose to heed warning verses,right? So if God doesn't force and you have to chose, Calvinism is destroyed.
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Every priest by the law had to be sanctified by Moses,Aaron etc... Christ obeyed the law (he even was baptized). Christ by His sacrifice sanctified Himself, thus fulfilling the Torah. You again don't understand the work of the Holy Spirit or a Biblical understanding of will.Regeneration changes the INCLINATIONS of the heart. Do you know what "inclinations- desires- affections" means A regenerated man has desires to obey and WILL obey (though NOT perfectly) to the end,thus saved.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards Your own experience teaches you that you CAN chose to sin.never to presume that you have not departed from that narrow road."examine yourselves whether you be in the faith"."work out your salvation with fear and trembling"."fight the good fight of faith,LAY HOLD TO eternal life"."make you calling and election sure","strive(agonize)to enter though the straight gate"ect i don't hear any Calvinism (or shall i say "fatalism") in these passages, do you?stop kicking against the pricks
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks These verses are the MEANS by which in God's Word to do exactly what He purposed them for,that is;those who are truly saved HEED these verses and they keep them from falling away(thy word Lord have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee)The truly regenerate LOVE these verses. They keep them diligent and keenly aware of the danger of the deceitfulness of ones heart.Only God knows who are TRULY saved,you will know of your own salvation by your perseverance to the END.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Also it says "Work OUT your salvation". It doesn't say "work FOR your salvation". Salvation in REALITY is given for those, who are in the Spiritually reality, for ETERNITY. They ARE saved, not "possibly saved". Quit kicking against the pricks? I say quite fighting against Christ's promise, "I GIVE them ETERNAL life and they will NEVER perish", not I give them a possession of eternal life and they "might not" never perish....
Why can't you trust Christ?
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
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Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards yes,eternal life is given presently and abides in the true follower. you are not saying anything.the question is: why would we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if we couldn't lose it. to say that the truly born again WILL heed these warning verses is blowing a silly smokescreen, since no one is forced.if one knows he is truly born again by the Spirit's witness, he can be lulled to sleep by your weak doctrine. the gate is narrow and we have to abide.
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks It is the very verse you quote that is the MEANS by which God gives his elect to KEEP them! They follow his Word! They work out their salvation, again you ignore the fact they work it OUT not work FOR their salvation. No one is FORCED. That's correct, however, the new heart that is only given to the Regenerate gives them desires to where they will, for their whole lives, follow Christ. Those who profess but fall, only prove they were not saved in the first place. 1 John 2:19
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards many who are not born again at all and believe in a false God, live a more outwardly moral life that many so-called Christians. they refrain from the wicked television and entertainments of the world and try to walk very close to God, yet they don't know that he was made a man and died for all men. Although their nature is a pig they don't wallow in the mud,so how will you know you are saved in Calvinism simply because you have religion.how do you know that you were born again?
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks "Saved in Calvinism"? I'm saved in Christ. If you mean "according to the doctrines Calvinism", the answer is THE SAME as your answer! You obey Christ, we agree in the "proof" that you are saved, that is, obedience throughout one's life. This is what I'm trying to show you, God's promise that those who are TRULY saved WILL endure. The problem is that is a "spiritual" truth. WE can't SEE that, we have to go by what we experience in life. There isn't a "saved" light on our heads.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards BECAUSE what is TRUE and REAL in the Spiritual realm can not be SEEN by us, the apostles wrote about the OUTWARD manifestations (fruits) of those who are saved so we can inspect ourselves continually. They also know that there are people who think they are saved (but aren't) and they wrote about them also... they will eventually TURN AWAY or stay self-deceived and find out in the judgement that they weren't born again (away from me, I never KNEW you). The promise however is TRUE
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
We are both fighting against people that take the TRUE DOCTRINE of OSAS in that there are many (probably most) that take that doctrine and use it to think they can sin like crazy and they are "saved" because they made a "decision" so they are ETERNALLY saved. I AGREE with you that this is WRONG! Their FRUIT bears witness that they are NOT regenerated, they don't OBEY! Their misunderstanding doesn't however disprove the PROMISE of eternal life, but only shows their self-deception.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards you ignore Heb 6:4 again."it is impossible to renew then "again" unto repentance.if they had never truly repented, this could never be said.i could say a lot to all the smoke screens you're blowing and the half baked,crafty,discordant,twisting of plain texts and of simple reason,but im going to stay on this one point,so that you don't go on and on about anything that you think you have a chance in explaining away, while you continue to dodge this passage,which you know you cant.
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks "If they had never TRULY repented, this could never be said" .You have to prove that assertion, which you can not. You are only going by assumptions. I can easily say this has nothing to do with true repentance, but I have to substantiate my claim with explicit verses to support my assertion. I have explicit verses to back my claim, you however do not. "I give them ETERNAL life" Did these people in Hebrews have life and then lost it? Then Jesus is a liar. No completion Phil 1:6
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards again did Adam have temporal life before he fell? of course not, but he lost it through rebellion. if you had read those verses without the pagan murderer, Calvin, indoctrinating you, you would never read such far reaching presumptions into any of those texts. again, "renew AGAIN to repentance". false repentance is nothing to be renewed to, so the Spirit is speaking of a true repentance. i don't need to prove this.you can read. "again" means they had repented before
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards no one can snatch you out of a fortified submarine but you can certainly open the door and exit. how does such an intelligent man parrot such baby prattle?
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks You miss the obvious context. NO MAN, that person is a man correct? Sorry, pretty explicit. And what would be the outcome if a man could be taken out? He would "perish", yet what was just said? They will NEVER perish. You don't have much of a grasp for the obvious do you? It's not a position of "FALSE" repentance, but just a simple position period, what kind of repentance isn't the point of the context! You need a logic and grammar class, you are grossly misunderstanding things
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards "no man, not even yourself can pluck you out": i'm surprised that you were not too embarrassed to say such a thing. i know you are a smarter than that foolishness. also,you said "what kind of repentance(true or false) isn't the point":what? you are sinking into gross absurdity at this point. what desperateness you are displaying. would you rather kiss Calvin than to be right before Jesus? renew "again" unto repentance shows that they had once repented, correct? be real
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks All I'm doing is allowing the grammar of the text to dictate what is SAID and not interjecting implications and basing doctrine on the implications. NO MAN means plainly NO MAN, it's not rocket science.
They repented? That's a verb, what the text uses is a noun, it's a "state", a "position". It does not say they repented, it especially doesn't say they TRULY repented,you are ASSUMING that, that assumption has to be SUBSTANTIATED, by the text, you can't do that. I trust Jo 10:28
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards you are not allowing the text to dictate,what you are doing is playing games with your soul. you will be reproved for rebelling against the easiest to understand teachings,in order to slavishly hold to a false doctrine that turns grace into lasciviousness,that you have,evidently,made an idol of,and now desperately try exalt over things so clearly stated by God.you are now in a crisis of theology as any Calvinist who seriously studies the word comes to.Edwards broke from Calvin
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks I'm not turning grace into lasciviousness,you grossly misunderstand the doctrine.You blindly follow uneducated leaders and it shows. When you disregard precious promises of Jesus and judge them according to how people use them improperly,you are judging the promises as false on the basis of how people use them to sin. You don't judge the promise according to how people misapply it.Otherwise the atheists judgments on Christianity are true, which is an absurdity, like your claims.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards you find a verse that doesn't expound on the CONDITIONS and you disregard all that do? Without holiness no man shall see the Lord.unless we're forced, you concede that it's POSSIBLE to not live holy once born again. You still must agonize to enter at the straight gate once born again.but really, how could you shamelessly continue to yap after you revealed yourself by saying that "we don't know if it is a true repentance that God said it would be impossible to renew some to"?
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks There is no condition.The statement is not in a covenantal context and it is NOT in the Subjunctive. It is a statement of FACT. Just like the verses before it. Why didn't they BELIEVE? BECAUSE they were not of HIS flock. They were not of the elect. It's not "they MUST strive to enter the straight gate, it's they WILL strive to enter the straight gate. One is "religion" (your view) one is God glorifying (my view) one is of works, one knowing it is GOD who WORKS IN US to strive.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
Why do you continue to imply meanings that are not in the text? YOU don't know if they repented or not, you don't know if they TRULY repented or not. All you are concerned about is your heresy. You harp on an implication and ignore Phil 1:6; Psalm 37:28. How bout Romans 8:29-30? Those whom He predestined, He called, He JUSTIFIED and those whom He justified He GLORIFIED.
ALL that the father predestines are Glorified. Sorry, God doesn't FAIL in His purpose, He accomplishes ALL that he purposes.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
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Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
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@ronathanedwards how is it that you don't know they had repented, if He says "fall away" and "renew them AGAIN" to repentance? you are showing what you are
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks LOL Edwards broke from Calvin? In what doctrine in the Ordo Salutis did Edwards differ with Calvin, PLEASE.... I want to know! LOL
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
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Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
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Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards Edwards expounded universal atonement listen to "Wicked Men Useful in Their Destruction" part 5 of 6 on youtube.
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Please, please, please, don't even think for a moment that Jonathan Edwards didn't believe in Limited Atonement. Just hinting at it only displays your utter inability to understand any rational argument from a human being. Don't you even understand the main topic was of that piece? Wicked men were made FOR destruction. God made man for two PURPOSES. One for Glory of His grace and one for glory in His Justice. Jesus didn't die for the reprobate. Edwards totally believed in that.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards i told you where to find where Edwards says that God will make the wicked useful in their destruction because they won't take advantage of the blood atonement offered them, but you obviously didn't look into it before you responded. but enough about Edwards as he is not the Source. you seem to be way to into men as it is. you obviously have no integrity with scripture, no shame in blatantly twisting it. you are so pressed to kiss men that you would deceive. you are in a crisis
Ruddermanspeaks 4 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks As I said before, I know Edwards well. The only one twisting men's intentions (Edwards) and scripture my friend is you. No integrity? I hold back my traditions and keep them in check by allowing the grammar of Scripture dictate the authors intention,you however disregard grammar and ignore the author's intention and turn your back to following simple arguments.You should listen to your own mantra,YOU are in a crisis.I bowed to Scripture and admitted I was wrong, you should also.
ronathanedwards 4 months ago
@ronathanedwards you didn't admit to being wrong. i saw you rebelliously attempt to distort the CLEAR meaning of "renew again to repentance" and "the blood of Christ whereby he(the backslider) was sanctified". now, i'm not into fallible men, so Edwards doesn't fascinate me. i used Edwards of as an example of a man(like Washer) who could not bring himself to preach Calvinism to its logical conclusions(like AW Pink ect). there are studies that show that he and Wesley were almost analogous.
Ruddermanspeaks 4 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks I won't admit being wrong where I am correct. The rebellion lies with you. Repeating your unsubstantiated assertions based on your presuppositions in order to desperately hold to your traditions doesn't make them true. Edwards did preach Calvinism from T to P, you need to go to school. I'm sure there are studies that show Hitler's mein kampf and Wesley were almost analogous also, that doesn't give any validity to the argument or the study.
Christ atoned for the MANY my friend.
ronathanedwards 4 months ago
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@ronathanedwards if i'm the one trying to desperately hold to my traditions, again, here is your chance to set me straight. how is it even possible that they had had not once repented, if it says "renew them AGAIN" to repentance? don't keep dodging and shuffling and trying to get side tracked about Edwards. answer the question with integrity
Ruddermanspeaks 4 months ago
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@ronathanedwards AGAIN!how is it that you don't know they had repented, if He says "fall away" and "renew them AGAIN" to repentance? you are showing what you are!
Ruddermanspeaks 4 months ago
Jonathan Edwards: “Universal redemption must be denied in the very sense of Calvinists themselves, whether predestination is acknowledged or no, if we acknowledge that Christ knows all things. For if Christ certainly knows all things to come, he certainly knew, when he died, that there were such and such men that would never be the better for his death. And therefore, it was impossible that he should die with an intent to make them (particular persons) happy.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
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Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@ron John 10:28there is many times a stated "if"and always an implied "if",when it comes to God's promises of salvation or blessings.lose the false Calvinistic lenses (telling you that God always gets what He wants).Joshua1:5 "no man shall be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life", yet when there was sin in the camp they were whipped by their enemies.He didn't give the conditions in that verse but they are always clearly there.we must abide (John15:2-6which you also ignore)
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards if you want to say repentance is a state,you are still saying absolutely nothing. then renew them "again" means that they were once in a state of repentance. it couldn't have been a false repentance because God would never want to bring us to that state. any child could understand this and i'm sure you do. now which way will you go?will you be weak and act unstable as water and continue to play like you can't see the undeniable, to your own peril, or will you be true?
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Your implications are getting tiresome. You can not support your answer with explicit verses. You have to make up stories and make silly assertions that only deceive yourself. "It couldn't have been false repentance"? Says who? Stop making yourself the standard and make the grammar of scripture the standard. Eternal life is ETERNAL. They will NEVER perish, means they will NEVER perish. He who began a good work in you will be FAITHFUL to complete it. U don't trust in God, to bad.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards why would God say "it is impossible to renew them again to a false repentance". only the devil desires a false repentance. the idiot in this video makes more sense than you now. they shall never perish does mean they shall never perish. you know there is an implied condition on these promises of eternal life. we must be His sheep (of God, not of the devil). All the other STATED conditions in the Bible also apply. Gal 6 He that sows to the Spirit shall reap eternal life
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks There is no implied condition at all. It's a simple explicit verse. It's embarrassing that you imply EVERYTHING, even explicit verses! Jesus died on a cross,does that mean He maybe died on a table? Geez, I GIVE them eternal life, they will NEVER perish.These are black and white explicit verses according to GRAMMAR. You desperately need to go to a 4th grade grammar school.They will NOT perish, NO CONDITION, it is a simple statement of fact.Your just full of humanistic philosophy.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards you have already admitted that you are not forced, so any promise that requires obedience is only sure when you lay hold on it by obedience. and if we are not forced it is absurd to say we always will persevere if we have been given the new nature internally.very simple stuff, but you are rebelliously,irrationally holding to the devil's presumption fed you by a murderous tyrant and other sponges who parrot these delusions fed them by seminaries. you still ignore John15:2-6
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks "if we are not forced it is absurd to say we always will persevere if we have been given the new nature" You are incorrect. I NEW heart, of flesh, will not turn away. I will abide. It will consistently (though imperfectly) abide in Christ, why? BECAUSE God promised it and God works IN us through his Spirit to do it. Jo 15? lol I don't ignore it like you do with Psalm 37, Jo 10:28, Phil. 1:6. God will COMPLETE it.Those who abide (by the work of the H.S.) is GODS work, no failure
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards you have already admitted that you are not forced, so any promise that requires obedience is only inherited when you lay hold on it by obedience. and if we are not forced it is absurd to say we always will persevere if we have been given the new nature internally.very simple stuff, but you are rebelliously,irrationally holding to the devil's presumption fed you by a murderous tyrant and other sponges who parrot these delusions fed them by seminaries. you still ignore John15:2-6
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
He who began a good work in you, "might" be faithful to complete it.
I "might" give them Eternal life"... they will NEVER perish (maybe)... NO ONE will snatch them out of my hand (except himself)
Lord Jesus Christ, who "MIGHT" sustain you to the end... (if you fall away, Jesus FAILS? hmmm) "And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand". MAKE him stand or make him standable?
he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, Ps 37:28. "might be"?... nope...
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
It's impossible to "regenerate" them again? That's what you want it to say. It doesn't say they were truly repentant in the first place, secondly the author is saying it is impossible for them to be "restored" TO repentance, that just means they are in a position to where they can't even be in a position to repent. It never mentions the true STATE at all. You are only making an unfounded assertion and ignoring the promises of Christ for those who DO believe. I'll take Christ's promises.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards a Christian til the end is one who trades with His goods and becomes more and more holy,in a way that is supernatural, not merely what natural men can do.we can be in Christ (John15:2-6)and be cast forth as a branch and burned(explicit). the gate is narrow.unless one has a serious fear of being a cast away,like Paul had,he is liable to become one.grace is not irresistible,it can be receive in vain(2Cor6:1)Steven said"ye do always resist the Holy Ghost).you avoided Heb6:4 again
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Again, the Holy Spirit CAN be resisted. You don't understand what Calvinists mean by "irresistible grace". I notice you say SUPERNATURAL, that means WE don't do it, the Spirit does, it is that same "supernatural" work of the Spirit that KEEPS His elect to the end (that's the PROMISE!).They are SEALED! There is not "unsealing".
The elect can not BUT love God, the Spirit TO THEM is irresistible with the heart change, they freely love and choose to obey Christ (imperfectly) forever
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards Calvin taught that the truly born again can't lose their salvation,although they live in sin. you say that he can't live in sin.these are both wrong. if you admit that you have to choose(although you speak of not wanting to because of regeneration),you admit that you are not forced.if you agree that you can't live in sin and be saved,and you are not forced to obey and will sin some after conversion,how is it that you think you cant sin enough to be a cast away.You are not forced
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Have you actually read Calvin? We ALL (including you) live in sin. That's what I proved to you before, you sin every day. Calvin MEANS that, though we are born again, we (though not perfect because we still have a sin nature warring against us) sin, but we have new hearts that love God and are now inclined to obey God and TRUST in Him and will continually do so (though not perfectly) till the end (because we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit).
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
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Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards Your own experience teaches you that you CAN chose to sin.never presume that you have not departed from that narrow road."examine yourselves whether you be in the faith"."work out your salvation with fear and trembling"."fight the good fight of faith,LAY HOLD TO eternal life"."make you calling and election sure","strive(agonize)to enter though the straight gate"ect i don't hear any Calvinism (or shall i say "fatalism") in these passages, do you?stop kicking against the pricks
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards again,1Pet2:is not on direct subject with 2Pet2:20 or any of the other scriptures i quoted, which you can't address.Do you fool yourself into thinking that you are not in crisis of theology, when you know you can't reconcile what man has taught you with the actual teachings of scriptures,by filling space with words that are off subject or by trying to avoid the dealing with scriptures,by drawing the conversation into a nice sounding system of thinking? who are you fooling here?
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks UMMM.... Sorry, I meant "2" Peter 2:20 and it is DIRECTLY relevant to the verse. MAN has taught me? I don't think so, I was an assisting Pastor for 9 years teaching exactly what you believe. I know the arguments very well, it's not till I took the scriptures for what they GRAMMATICALLY dictate for themselves did I come to the conclusion that I was (and you are) completely wrong, believing in tradition of heretics. Now, the subject of SECOND Pet.2 please...
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards furthermore, if you had an intepretation for 2Pet 2:20 that showed that it was not concerning people who were once truly saved and fell away, you would have given it by know, but you know very well you don't, so who are you fooling here, yourself?
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks I do, I'm just asking YOU to show me the subject of the context of 2 Pet. 2. Since you use 2:20 as a proof text, I assume you know the subject of the context. So, what is it? You've spent much time accusing me of not "knowing" the texts, I would think it odd that you won't tell me what you know. It's not even that hard of a question, really.... Who is Peter referring to in verse one of the chapter?
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards save yourself more shame by not responding if you can't deal with those passages...
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks I'm not mocking anything. If He doesn't require sinless perfection, then where is the "dividing line" between obey "enough" for salvation and not obeying enough? When do you know? Your legalistic mantra of obedience doesn't (and can't) explain this. If you think that I (or Calvinism) promotes "doing whatever you want" because one "believes and is now saved" is grossly misunderstanding the doctrine. You might want to study the subject a little further.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards what we know of the dividing line between "obeying enough" or "not obeying enough" for salvation is that it is extremely narrow. few will be saved(even among seekers). we must press into the kingdom of God(check out Edwards' sermon"pressing into the kingdom of God" on youtube).we must abide in the Vine, once in the Vine by bearing fruit or be cut off and burned John 15:6. See, flesh wants a false comfort and assurance but we have to make our elect sure with fear and trembling
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Your asking ME to check out Jonathan Edwards? Don't you see the play on his name with mine? I've taken several classes ON Jonathan.... I know the sermon well. You are stressing to make our ELECTION sure, I agree. But for WHAT? Those who strive is the EVIDENCE that you have been saved, it isn't FOR salvation. I believe what Jesus said concerning His elect "No one can snatch them out of my hand". I don't USE that for a crutch to do what I want, but a promise of my persevering.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
The dividing line is narrow, and how do you know what side of the line YOU are on? You can't even know that you yourself is saved, what a sad state. I wish you could trust in Christ's promises like John 10:28-29 and Phil. 1:6. "I GIVE them ETERNAL life, not "I MIGHT give them eternal life. Once someone is TRULY saved, it is for..ETERNITY from the point of salvation. If God STARTS a good work in you (salvation) HE is faithful to COMPLETE it. I trust in those everyday to help me persevere.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
Wesley brought it like a man of God must.this guy is a foolish man as are all who believe that you can't lose salvation.this man has another video trashing Calvinism but Calvin was the inventor of the wicked doctrine of "eternal security" What would be subversive about believing you HAD to live holy (Heb 12:14)as opposed to it being a good idea to live holy,even if it was not true? holiness or hell preaching angers some cowards more than anything. eternal security is a weak man's fantasy!
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Again you have a complete misunderstanding of the concept. You might want to read some reformed theology books on the subject so you can discuss this topic and the concepts that are actually held on not attacking straw-men, it's just vanity.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@preacherboy: that's exactly what I was thinking!! This man is ridiculous!!! I hope God has mercy on him when he stands before the throne of God ( and I bet ya John Wesley is gonna e close by watching! Lol)
jackmccrory79 5 months ago
wow is this "man" for real? And he is suppose to be a man of God? where is the fruits of the Spirit? he actually thinks he can say anything against a man who actaully had God work thru him,I dont see anything of God in this man.its "men" like him that cause "christians " so much problems and give gthem a bad name. And he needs to worry if he thinks he cant loose his salvation.Forgive me but I would question if he has ever had it!
ariesars78 6 months ago
this dude is dangerously close to being like the westboro baptist church...he seems to hate everything. he must be depressed
patriciacarrasco 7 months ago
I'm sorry to say that I feel bad for this preacher, his family, and his congregation.
joshballard37 7 months ago
Wow....he actually accussed someone else of twisting Scripture! Ha...that's all I can say is wow!
preacherboy2277 7 months ago
He has the cynicism of an atheist and the intelligence of an elementary school student. The combination is dangerous.
DanPrinMan 7 months ago
Of course you disagree. This is nothing new, this is the old Arminian vs Calvinism debate.
aldi9802 8 months ago
Someone from that congregation needs to stand up and slap this arrogant man into reality. This is the definition of being full of yourself.
JohnBigmon 8 months ago
This s so sad how can this even happen I am with you he is talking about pioneers of the Gospel he knows nothing. he need prayer. much prayer
mykarria 9 months ago
impressive church...how many in the "congregation"? sounds like about 6 - your hillbilly wife and your cretinous kids
MyMomSaysSo 9 months ago
All you do is preach AGAINST others, be it the president, or current or past preachers.
BibleDude777 10 months ago
Calvinism = Consistent theology.
Wesleyan/True Arminianism = Consistent theology.
One is correct (You know which one I think is.. ;-) ) one is in error.
One who believes that one is free to choose yet is then BOUND or enslaved to His choice and cannot loose his salvation is just plain theological ignorance.
I could only wish to be half the man that Wesley was.
ronathanedwards 10 months ago
@ronathanedwards
Words of a true wise man.
DanPrinMan 7 months ago
@ronathanedwards Amen... OSAS (once saved always saved) based on "decisional regeneration" is rubbish, the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saint is the comfort of knowing that the God that is powerful enough to save me is the God that is powerful enough to keep me.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival "osas" was the invention of a murderous dictator who had a special opinion on EVERYTHING in Geneva. know wonder that he could find a way to form a special new "gospel".what if God chose to allow you,by His empowerment, to choose to be saved and kept, by you surrendering and obeying His commands? would that make Him a God not powerful enough to keep you?Yes,He could force.He knows forced love is no love at all? 1John 1:7If we walk in the light, the blood...CLEARLY CONDITIONAL
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Once saved Always saved is entirely different than the Perseverance of the Saints that was taught by the Lord Jesus Himself when he says that all that the Father gives Him He will raise up at the last day, and no one can pluck us from His hand, He who has heard and believed has eternal life already.
Apostle Paul as well...
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
He's sure of this
EverydayRevival 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards i suppose you believe that you can't choose to live in sin?if you "decide" to live in sin you will be lost,after being once saved 2Pet2:20.It doesn't matter if a man is consistent if he is in utter error,like Calvin.To believe that Adam was forced to sin, and most are born into this sinful world with no hope of God ever extending any grace to save them,yet they are burned forever for doing what they were forced to do, is utter lunacy unless you have been thoroughly brainwashed.
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks You sin everyday... most likely every minute, Rudderman, so, I guess you are lost then. Repent! You misunderstand 2 Pet 2, I guess that makes you a false teacher who Peter, ironically, was describing!Adam wasn't forced, keep arguing against strawmen, you can debate against them all you like, but it gets you nowhere with those who want to discuss God's Word rationally.
Brainwashed? Sorry, I just believe in what the Bible says, not what heretical Arminians try to brainwash with.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards it's odd that fill so much space with words, but you don't speak to 2Pet 2:20. you only hint that you have an answer to this text that seems to destroy "eternal security", yet you don't give it. not surprising, though, because you don't have one
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks What is the subject of the context of 1 Pet. 2 ? Hint: It's in verse 1.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
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Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
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Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
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@ronathanedwards read reformed books for understanding?really? you don't even attempt to deal with 2Pet 2:20 and speak of 1Pet 2:1(what?).you are now in a serious crisis and are venting empty words in weakness.it clear you CAN'T address this scripture nor many others any babe could give you because your indoctrination simply doesn't mesh with scripture.Calvin was a brutal dictator in Geneva. doesn't that cause great pause in receiving this reprobates words as unquestioned authority in your life?
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks I'm sill waiting... what's the subject of the context of 1 Pet 2? It's not rocket science....
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
It's fraudulent for this "pastor" to make the claim Wesley was pro-homo. Fraud seems to be par for the course for "pastor" anderson. As a baptist on youtube said, John Wesley was a better Christian than 90% of the baptist today.
filoIII 10 months ago
This is stupid. Baptists are so judgemental, all they do is slander other people in their sermons.
YeshuaisYahweh1 10 months ago
@YeshuaisYahweh1 No, This baptist is judgmental.
filoIII 10 months ago
@filoIII MOST are.
YeshuaisYahweh1 10 months ago
The doctrine of preservation of believers is not a sole determining factor that determines if a person is following Christ.
prairiemark 10 months ago
He twists 2Tim 2:13, saying if we stop believing, we remain saved. Verse 12 says the same thing Jesus warned in Matt 10:33: "if we deny Him, He also WILL deny us", Paul is saying that even if we don't believe God will deny us if we deny Him, it happens ANYWAY. God does not lie. Many today, (like the preacher in the video) deny that this can happen. Jesus also told his own disciples "you are the salt of the earth, but if the salt loses it's savor, it's good for nothing but to be cast out".
LivingFaith2 11 months ago
I am a Methodist. John Wesley, as well as Methodist past and present believe in the doctrine of Free Will as opposed to Eternal Security. The first place we see this is in the Garden of Eden where Eve made a "choice" to eat the forbidden fruit as did Adam.
marsh5963 11 months ago
He doesn't like Calvinism or Wesleyanism...He doesn't like anything but the KJV and burns NIV bibles on a grill....I got two verses for him and he can read them in the KJV......1 Timothy 4:1....Matthew 7:23.
TCBHal 11 months ago
Is this guy really serious?
LinxDinx 11 months ago
I am so glad that you are able to see these Godly men as heretics and are ready are to take time away from a message from God to your congregation to rag on Christians to your congregation. Was Paul the apostle also a heretic? He wrote in Hebrews 5 and 6 about those who have fallen away from God even after becoming saved, and how hard it is for them to again come to faith in Jesus.
forestguard86 1 year ago
Uh does this guy realize John Wesley is the main reason he isn't an Episcopal today? Jeeze he liberated people from the King's Church!
TheJerusalemCross 1 year ago
you wouldnt be standing there right now preaching if it wasnt for people like Luther and Wesley and Billy Grahmn, great reformers who led massive Christian revivals, these people led people to Christ you turn people from Christ. YOu are a Viper if you were saved once I highly doubt you are now!
blaine4100 1 year ago
friend you peach about others as though YOU know the whole truth all the truth? you are still very young and it shows by how you preach your fire is Good. but try and focus it on loveing people where there at. and draw them to Jesus. we all are being sanctified who hunger for the master. remember you are too. blessings
aa77a86 1 year ago
This preacher is way off and not all Baptists act like this. No church is perfect nor true but the word of God. We the people are what make the church. In every denomination you will find bad apples that will give us Christians a bad name like the Westboro Baptist Church aka the hate group, for example. I also believe you can lose your salvation if you don't endure til the end.
dasshnitzel05 1 year ago
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturea will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Galatians 6:7
GunnyGunny1 1 year ago
A gift is free. And no, God doesn't take it back. But a funny little thing about a gift is that I can give it back to whoever gave it to me. This man preaches in his own name and by that he is the spirit of anti christ. I am a baptist, and I am fundamental. He is a baptist by name only. If you listen to his other tripe, he says that you don't have to know the law. Paul said that if it weren't for the law, we wouldn't have known sin... Get out of man's books, and get into THE BOOK!
athames100 1 year ago
why this man is blaming on a man of God as Wesley was?
bienacosta 1 year ago
why this spiritual dwarf is blaming on a man of God as Wesley was?
bienacosta 1 year ago
why this spiritual dwarf is blaming on a man of God as Wesley was?
Jerk!
bienacosta 1 year ago
Does this jerk moron really qualify to speak against the great john Wesley?
bienacosta 1 year ago