I can't believe Snipes didn't go for broke! Give Holmes credit, he fought back hard and recouped quickly, but damn the way he went down Snipes should've been Champion of the world.........
Holmes was a hard man. He got up and immediately started fighting back. Snipes had heart and power but not much in the way of defense or a solid game plan.
@BruceinFalkirk I agree 100%. I will say that Snipes' unorthodox, choppy style was very difficult to defend against. He was actually a better fighter than I gave him credit for.
@BruceinFalkirk Who wrote that he needed it? The ref could still give him a long count regardless if he needed it or not. So next time u try to "duh" somebody try use that thing inside your head and THINK of all the angles.............
So what if he got more time to regroup? Nobody has ever complained about a long count if the recipient has been up quickly, only if the recipient is still down like Buster Douglas against Mike Tyson, for example.
Please pour yourself a large glass of sod off juice.
@BruceinFalkirk Hang on man, I'm not even saying it was a long count. My initial response was to explain HOW one can benefit from a long count. But, how can you say "so what if he got more time to regroup?" So what? Again, I don't think Holmes got a long count but if he did what right does the referee have to take that KO opportunity away from Sinpes or any other fighter? A ref is to count at a regular speed and do his job correctly. A delay in counting gives an advantage to the hurt fighter!
Snipes complained Holmes got 14 seconds, but he was up around four. Even if you add in the time after the ref got to 8, it's all legit.
Where Holmes got the benefit is that if there hadn't been a ring turnbuckle there to crash into, he may have ended up in the 2nd row and never made it back.
The "controversy" is that when Snipes got hurt at the end, the ref stopped it, maybe too soon. But most people think only by a few punches. Renaldo was not going to win the fight at that point.
@jezelljr He got stabbed at the post fight press conference, as being the FOOL, he tried to go at Holmes, as he thought he "was robbed". His trainer had been in the process of cutting away his hand tape when he decided to fight another "round". World class FOOL.
When Holmes got himself in trouble, it often seems to be the seventh round. But he shows his great champion's heart and recuperative powers. He was always dangerous when hurt. Larry won the rest of the round after getting knocked down. That's the champion he was!
4. Ezzard Charles was the most "shot" of all - he fought Marciano in his 94 & 95th bouts. Still he won at least 5 rounds on all cards in the first fight. Coming into the Marciano fights, Charles had lost 2 of his last four. Heck, from 1953 on, Charles went 16-17. They fought in '54...
@TheChoice264 That was the most unsophisticated & comprehensively lacking analysis I've ever seen...
Using a British voice, I'll say, "Pat Lawler defeated Wilfred Benitez. Benitez was 32 years old, Lawler was 27. Lawler also defeated Roberto Duran. Duran was 39, Lawler was 28..." It's misleading...
The point is that chronological age is but one factor in evaluating boxers. The quality of opposition, the amount of punishment absorbed, & number of years active are as important assessing fighters
@TheChoice264 We could pick 4 fighters from undefeated former Super Middleweight Champ Sven Ottke & 4 from Middleweights Marvin Hagler & Sugar Ray Robinson. Like the Rock comparisons, non of these guys fought the same fighters in their primes &, like Rocky, only Ottke retired undefeated. Any critique worth anything would consider Hagler, Robinson, & Ottke beyond the ages of four "top" opponents.
I mean, the thing actually used Cooper, Liston, Williams & Foley to evaluate Ali - beyond incomplete.
@TheChoice264 Not mention that Ali fought taller fighters, heavier fighters, younger guys, older guys... He fought the best in the US (black & white). He fought foreign guys like Bugnar, Chavalo, etc. He fought undefeated champs like Frazier & Foreman.
Ali fought from 1960 to 1980. From '64 onward, he fought primarily in title fights against top opposition - Holmes, Spinks, Shavers, Young, Norton, Ellis, Foster, Patterson, Quarry, Terrell, Bonavena, Mathis, Lyle.
Anyone that believe Marciano fought quality opponents in their primes doesn't know the truth or isn't interested in the it.
1. That bald spot spotting Joe Louis that he beat was a shell of himself that retired after the fight
2. Archie Moore was anywhere from 39-44 years old & fought him in his 177th fight!
3. Jersey Joe was beating him on all cards when he got caught - Oh yeah, he was the oldest man to win the title in his effort before the Rock; his bouts with Marciano were his 70th & 71st.
@buzzinhard71 Was he? He had faster feet, and was much more graceful, but did he have a faster jab? Maybe not.
Ali was a limited fighter. He was very talented, but he didn't like fighting jabbers. Holmes had a longer reach (81" versus 78" for Ali), and a better jab.
Tough, tough fight for Ali. He wouldn't know what to do. Look at the problems Norton's jab caused him.
@TA152H01 what, so speed beats power most of the time only when it suits your agenda? ali was a limited fighter!! yes limited to knowing how to figure out styles that didn't suit him( norton ) when he'd lost the ludicrous speed he'd once posessed, we're talking a 70% ali( and thats generous ) against norton,in comparison to say a 1967 ali. oh i assure you ali's jab and general handspeed is far superior to holmes's, not that holmes was slow,in fact extremely quick, but ali could make 'extremely
1967 Ali had his hands full for 7 rounds with an overage bum named Zora Folley. Watch the fight.
Thanks for assuring me, now I know it must be true. What a clown.
Speed normally beats power, but I don't think Ali's jab was ever faster, but if it was, it was minimally. He had a shorter reach. He'd lose the battle of jabs. But that's not the point. Holmes hand speed was excellent, if there was an advantage, it was slight. Foreman?
@TA152H01ha,ha i've watched the fight many times, 'hands full' maybe you don't watch much boxing? foremans another kettle of fish, and not one i care to discuss with someone who blows hot air over facts, if the village idiot calls me a 'clown' i can humour it, as for addressing the point, you're absolutely right, you didn't! holmes has no way of beating, the superior chin,conditioning,handspeed,footspeed,ring generalship,psychological warfare, that ali brings,WASHOUT!
@buzzinhard71 Now don't get into a bitch fit on me. Try to act like a man and not get hysterical.
Chin wouldn't matter, Ali didn't have a punch. Conditioning? Pretty close. Hand speed? Pretty close. Footspeed, Ali was the greatest in that. Ring generalship? Holmes. Psychological warfare? What a dumb thing to say. Holmes was way beyond it.
Holmes had reach, a better jab, and more power. Ali would lose from the outside. He couldn't match Larry there. Holmes by decision.
@TA152H01 bitch fit?hysterical?you can only wish you can make someone/anyone like this, certainly not your wife! chin absolutely would matter with the volume of punches ali would be connecting with, 'ali didn't have a punch' enough of one to ko foreman,liston, tko lyle,quarry,bonavena not a bad resume wouldn't you say?holmes beyond psychological warfare, not according to mr holmes who admitted that ali got to him b4 their fight with things 'he couldn't believe ali would ever say',ali every time.
@TA152H01 exactly, holmes beat an old man and no amount of psychology would have helped,but he did tko quarry and if lyle was a bum what would you call todays heavies? all your comparisons are of an ali ten years past his prime, norton,shavers,whenever we compare holmes shall we compare the holmes that fought holyfield,and lost to oliver mcall? i like holmes a lot,and respect his skills/abilities he was a great heavy, but he just doesn't beat prime ali. frazier said ali couldn't punch? yhe same
@TA152H01 frazier that was saved from being ko'ed by the ref in the 2nd round of their 2nd fight? i've never said ali was a big puncher,but his volume over 15 rounds could rattle a mans teth loose - look at holyfield,great/proven chin but was stopped by non puncher toney,volume and accuracy. stick with me son you may learn something!
@jimmynablee better nutrition maybe, but not the weights, mr folley wouldn't need weights he was naturally over 200lb,and was as heavy as 228, he was quick,could punch,had good movement and could box nicely, you are right i for one wouldn't be in a rush to bet against him if he fought mr haye, also ta152ho1 thinks mr lyle was a bum, how much would you bet against mr lyle if he were to fight mr haye? again i would be in no rush whatsoever to place my bet!!
@buzzinhard71 whts the hell!!! ron lyle a bum? this bum gave ali the hell!! this bum destroyed earnie shavers, this bum gave 1 fight to george foreman!!! , he won the english champion joe bugner ,ron lyle was not a bum, he was a very good boxer.
@buzzinhard71 he said ken norton was in his prime when fought holmeslol, he said holmes would ko george foreman in 4 rounds lol(i am not sure even if holmes would survive 4 rounds against george foreman, who was much stronger than shavers, the same hitting power and 100 times better chin and heart). the only way holmes might win foreman is by points running all fight to survive, if he exchange blows with foreman he is died in 4 rounds.
@TA152H01 well if holyfields jaw 'wasn't granite' it shows mr tysons punch power is overrated. or do you think that fighting a faster fighter who's hitting you with punches that you either aren't seeing coming,or can't roll with,mixed with the higher concentration and movement to avoid more punishment causes the exhaustion/ko? i'm certainly not trying to 'weasel' out of any of my statements, thats just your way of diverting attention from you avoiding the points. the only other thing i agree
@buzzinhard71 Holyfield got knocked out a few times. That's not granite. Marciano, Ali, that's granite, although Ali didn't have a great chin when young.
Tyson's power was overrated, going by one punch. But, he had the ability to follow it quickly because he was fast and threw combinations well. He didn't land those against Holyfield.
Some guys did tire and have weak chins because of it. Tyson is a perfect example. Round 1, he'd take a sledge. Round 10, he'd go down much easier.
@TA152H01 what? you're saying ali's chin got better with age? nonsense,with age ali had more patience and he rolled with the punches better,you mistake this for better chin? holyfields chin was top drawer,marciano knocked down by light heavy moore,holyfields punch resistance just slowly deteriorated with age due to so many wars,as would marciano's if he had continued. you are right mr frazier would have clobbered mr tyson in the later rounds. mayweather against hearns,leonard,duran,benitez,
@jimmynablee i would also pick frazier to dismantle tyson 6-8 rounds,and he probably beats holmes too, i can't see tyson beating prime holmes though, but hey its the heavies one punch can change everything! ha ha i like the lyle,haye comment!
@buzzinhard71 Of course his chin got better. If you get hit in the head 100 times, you're brain does learn how to react to it, and recover faster. Of course, then you have other consequences later. Ali got hit a lot, look at his head after Frazier 1. Norton broke his jaw. He said Shavers nailed him a few times. He just took a better shot. Some guys go the other way.
You make a novice mistake. Marciano was not hurt by Moore. He got up swinging. He was very off-balance when hit.
@TA152H01 ha ha ha, rubbish, your chin cannot get better,more sparring with better quality partners and patience resulting in better anticipation of the punches=rolling with them better which greatly lessens the impact. i make a novice mistake? you have no idea who you're talking to! correct marciano wasn't hurt but he also wasn't off balance,he was shocked and the punch momentarily took his legs away, so yes you can call it a flash knockdown, but walcott wobbled marciano with a right before
@TA152H01 the left knocked him down, he wasn't badly hurt,but he was wobbled and it was a genuine knockdown. by the way when a fighter gets up swinging it can also be a sign he's hurt as he's on instinct,some fighters are more dangerous when hurt-nigel benn as one of many examples.
@buzzinhard71 It was a flash knockdown. I never said it should have been ruled a slip, but he wasn't hurt, and he came back fighting. And he didn't look like Holmes after he got up.
He was much less hurt than Clay/Ali when he got knocked down by Cooper and Banks, not to mention Frazier in the 11th and 15th.
If you think Ali had a granite jaw, despite getting hurt much worse, and much worse guys like Banks, then Marciano's was that and more.
@TA152H01 look name fighters that mr marciano fought who were the equal in punch power of mr shavers,mr foreman,mr frazier,mr liston, even mr lyle?. i'll tell you - none! the 2 hardest punchers mr marciano fought was old,washed up mr louis and mr layne,who was a decent fighter,but not in the league of the aforementioned mr ali victims. so very hard to compare, i'm not saying mr marciano was 'chinny' anyway,and he may not have looked like holmes when he got up,but he also never fought anyone
@buzzinhard71 Frazier knocked Ali down, and almost knocked him out. That's not a plus for Ali.
Foreman didn't hit him cleanly. Shavers not too cleanly either, but Ali did say he never got hit so hard. Liston didn't hit him either, and it's funny you say Louis was washed up, but Liston wasn't.
The fact is, in 49 fights, Marciano was never seriously hurt. Ali was repeatedly. Marciano fought Moore, Walcott, Louis, Layne, LaStarza, Charles, etc... His chin was great. It had to be.
@TA152H01 doesn't detract from the fact that mr marciano never fought anybody that was in the same company as mr ali's opponents,and yes mr foreman did land cleanly,as did mr shavers,mr liston didn't really,but mr liston wasn't washed up as you're trying to suggest,watch mr liston for the 1st 5 rounds he looked the same as ever - dangerous and walking down mr clay, fair argument that he aged in the ring against mr clay,but clay would have that effect on any fighter in their advanced years.
@buzzinhard71 Liston looked terribly slow, and he was pushing his jab more than ever. He and Louis were both past their primes, but, were still able to beat a lot of fighters. Louis was actually favored to win against Marciano.
I disagree with your remarks about Foreman. He wasn't able to land a really clean shot to the head, and of course, after round two, he was exhausted. He wasn't a great fighter, he was extremely clumsy and had terrible stamina and hand speed.
@TA152H01 mr liston was made to look 'terribly slow' by the fast welterweight speed of of mr ali, and pushing his jab into thin air made it look clumsy, ali made much faster/lighter fighters look cumbersome, mr liston had no hope. look mr louis was washed up, whereas if liston had any other top 10 contender in with him that night the jabs would have looked great as they broke the opponents nose,and he would have overpowered them within 5 rounds and all the mr louis comparisons would have started
@buzzinhard71 Marciano got hit a lot harder than Ali. Ali very rarely got hit by clean shots with the guy on balance. Marciano, because of his style, got hit constantly by these shots.
Marciano would never have won 49 fights without an extremely solid chin. He got hit too often, particularly early in his career. Clay/Ali didn't get hit so much, because of the difference in style.
None of Ali's opponents were really great, except for Holmes. The rest fell a bit short.
@TA152H01 again with overexcited exclamations of mr liston is the best heavy ever!! don't try to tell me mr liston was anything but his normal self for the 1st 5 rounds,just made to look like he was moving through mud by THE fastest heavy ever. watch ali v foreman again, he caught ali with definitely 3 full blooded on the jaw/chin shots,with loads of glancing shots/head shots - watch the fight. mr foreman not a great? keep it real,particularly his whole career taken into consideration.for
@buzzinhard71 Liston is the best heavyweight ever? Too funny. There's nothing left to talk about if you believe that. He was a terribly slow fighter that was exposed. He was also a quitter.
Foreman was a slow fighter too. Slow fighters aren't great. Sooner or later they get exposed. Foreman was incredibly clumsy too.
@TA152H01 can you not read? i never said mr liston was the greatest heavy ever,maybe you don't realise but thats what a lot of respected boxing people were saying at the time mr liston was champ,and they were comparing mr liston to mr louis i was merely pointing this out dummy. slow fighters aren't great? what a ridiculous comment,do you actually know anything about boxing? mr louis wasn't very quick,he would have looked exactly like mr liston against mr clay,and mr marciano was positively
@TA152H01 ponderous,and you call mr foreman clumsy!! lol not elagent and sophisticated like mr marciano then? ha ha and frazier didn't beat ali in the 1st fight? you're really exposing your ignorance now! i'm sure mr frazier and mr foreman were defending their titles against the likes of mr lastarza and mr cockell and a couple of light heavies,they'd have been champs longer than mr marciano - for example look at what mr frazier did to hall of fame,massive punching all time great light heavy
@TA152H01 example list for me how many heavies you know at 41 years old after a 10 year retirement could have smashed young mr tyson into oblivion? marciano like i've said didn't get hit cleanly by anyone full stop as hard as shavers,foreman,frazier,even lyle,and was better defensively than generally people think,he didn't get hit cleanly very often, he obviously couldn't with that style . holmes the only 'great' ali fought? frazier doesn't stack up? liston? you've already told me foreman
@TA152H01 doesn't, but what prime greats did mr marciano beat? whilst your making your list,can you please make a list of the prime greats mr tyson beat aswell? as i'm told he's the greatest! lol
Marciano beat Walcott, Moore, Louis, Charles, LaStarza, Layne, etc... Louis was definitely a bit past his prime, of course, but still decent. LaStarza wasn't great, and neither was Layne, but both were good. Moore was a great light heavy, Charles was a very good fighter, and Walcott was a very good heavy.
All were skilled. Ali didn't beat too many skilled guys. Mostly slow guys.
@TA152H01 mr foster. you know absolutely nothing,you're a joke!louis a bit past his prime? he was a shell of what he had been, and "ali didn't beat many skilled guys" - these comments have made me realise that you know zilch and are not even worth trying to educate as your head is obviously jammed quite tightly up your own arse....
@TA152H01 marciano iron chin? lol, rocky faced lhw and cruisers and still he was down, if he would fight guys like foreman, he would be died in 2 rounds. rocky never was tested against 1 prime, big and strong real hw.
@jimmynablee He went down twice in his career, both times he got up right away and went back on the attack. Both were flash knockdowns.
Moore had him off-balance leaning forward. Walcott hit him as hard as he could. Again, both flash knockdowns.
Look at Clay/Ali against Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper. Particularly against Cooper, he was BADLY hurt. Doug Jones also hurt him. Frazier had him almost out in Rd 11, and knockdown in 15th. Yet, he's got an iron jaw. Marciano too.
@TA152H01 with you about is that todays heavies are horrible, i too cannot suffer them,although i find mr haye likeable,and enjoy watching him although he is flawed i wish him the best as long as he now walks the walk.
@buzzinhard71 Not just the heavies. Mayweather and Pacman are considered the best now. Can you imagine these clowns against Hearns and Leonard? I'm not sure they'd even get by guys like Pryor, Duran, Benitez, etc...
We're not in boxing's Golden Age, that's for sure.
Most people go by what people tell them. Ali was better than Holmes, no one doubts that, so they assume he'd beat him. But, styles make fights, and Holmes was the wrong style for Ali. And Ali had problems against certain styles.
I'd pick Holmes. But, Ali wouldn't be outclassed, and might win. But, I'd have to give Holmes the edge based on Ali's trouble against jabbers.
@jimmynablee but he was a pretty good quality fighter at best,and if a prime folley were to fight david haye tonight how much would you bet against folley? i certainly wouldn't risk too much!
@rannnntanplan13 holmes is realy a legend.he got my respect when he fighted with 40+ years and beated undefeated gold medalist ray mercer and lost by decision vs holyfield.
@vegetayy and george foreman? who destroyed michael moorer, moorer won evander holyfield,foreman lmost knocked evander out 2 times,foreman will be better and greater than holmes always. this idiot said holmes would ko foreman in 4 rounds lol. this idiot said norton was in his prime when he faced holmes lol, holmes did not have the chin to take the hits from foreman
@jimmynablee yeah.but forman has not good skills.when u are fast skilled and have balls u can outpoint forman.prime ali of the 60`s allways defeats forman.prime larry holmes defeats lewis holyfield but not tyson.
@vegetayy yes i agree, no debate on ali 64-67, but ali late 70s would not win foreman , ali wanted no part of the rematch against foreman. ali had a iron chin, the fastest hw of all time, great reflexes,great heart... but larry holmes was a pussy.
and the boxing is not all skill, foreman was a legend in his way. and of course the styles make fights, tyson would win holmes always!! it is because tyson wanted fight against holmes any day in the week,but he wanted no part of foreman.
@jimmynablee Foreman got beaten, badly, by Jimmy Young. You think he'd have a chance against Holmes?
Holmes by KO 4. Foreman would be tired by three, and groping like a mad drunkard as soon as he got hit.
There's a reason why Foreman wouldn't fight Holmes. Holmes was his God. He cowered from the thought of fighting Holmes. He knew Holmes would give him an unwholesome beating.
@TA152H01 george foreman would ko holmes always, and holmes avoided foreman , george was the champ in 1973 and 74 , and he would fight and ko holmes always, but holmes was not nobody in this time. the only way that holmes might beat foreman is running all fight to survive. " larry holmes would ko george foreman in 4" lol really anyone must kill your family , you deserves that. lol
@jimmynablee Holmes didn't avoid Foreman, the reverse was true.
He'd knock Foreman out.
Foreman was tired by the third round. Holmes would be able to land at will against him. Foreman went down from shots from Lyle that didn't even hit cleanly.
@jimmynablee Actually, if you were smart enough to know how to use Google, you'd see there's a thread on EastSideBoxing asking just how badly Holmes would have beaten Foreman.
Not many people who understand boxing think Foreman would win. He had a big punch, so anything is possible, but, it's very unlikely. You don't understand boxing, at all, so you don't understand it. It's difficult for you, I understand.
@rannnntanplan13 You keep saying that, but you're the ape that is only 13, or acts like it. Larry Holmes ruled the heavyweight division for many years, and won 48 fights in a row.
He trounced Ali's master - Ken Norton. A man that hospitalized Ali when he was still young.
I don't know why you hate Holmes, but get over it. The man was the real deal.
@rannnntanplan13 Foreman took an unwholesome beating against Holyfield. Holmes was competitive the whole fight. You don't know much if you disagree with that.
Spinks lost the second fight, but Holmes did look bad both of them. He was old. 36 years old was past his prime, like it is most fighters.
Foreman was too slow, and wouldn't fight Holmes. Holmes kept asking for that fight. He'd rape Foreman.
Ali would have been beaten by the jab. He had problems with good jabbers.
@buzzinhard71 I think Ali was a better fighter, but Ali would have fits against Holmes. Ali didn't like jabbers, and Holmes had a better jab than Ali. Ali couldn't fight inside, since Holmes hit harder. He'd have to try to outjab a guy with a better jab.
Holmes would probably win. I don't know what Ali could do, but stay outside and lose. He didn't have any knowledge about fighting any other way.
@TA152H01 on the presumption we're talking prime ali,say straight after the cleveland williams fight against prime holmes i would say holmes had a stiffer jab,and punched generally with more authority than ali, but as ali himself would say, holmes would feel like he was surrounded ali was so blindingly fast of foot and hand, i'd pick ali to win an absolute landslide points win or even possibly a stoppage in the championship rounds( 13,14,15 ) ali's faster jab and hand/footspeed would dominate
@buzzinhard71 Watch Ali the fight right after Cleveland Williams (Zora Folley). This guy was a bum, and a past the prime bum. He gave Ali all sorts of problems, even in his prime.
Cleveland Williams was made to order for Ali, and was way past his prime. Ali was so talented, against certain guys he looked brilliant. Against other guys, he looked very ordinary.
Holmes was a very bad style for Ali, and I think his jab was quicker, or at least as quick. Footwork though, no one was Ali
@TA152H01 quick' look ordinary. liston has one of the best jabs in history,and would be in any heavyweight champ jabs top 5 best,he couldn't get anywhere near and his reach 84 inch to holmes 81, ernie terrel with his 82 inch reach could only catch air, and by the way ali's reach is 80' rather than the 78' you stated. i must watch a different fight when i see ali against folley, as i see ali have an easy relaxed night,didn't see him 'problem' ali at all, folley was past it i'll give you that
@buzzinhard71 Again, you try to avoid the obvious. Liston didn't have a great jab in the sense it was always useful. It was punishing, but very slow. Ali had no problems with slow fighters. Holmes had a very fast, punishing jab. Ali couldn't avoid it.
You can't compare a slow jab with a fast one. Liston's was good, in the sense it was hard if he landed it. But, it was very slow.
Even Ali said Folley gave him trouble, so he had to wait for him to get tired.
@buzzinhard71 Oh, and Ali's reach was 78", not 80". They measured it on Wide World of Sports. Do a search on Chamberlain and Ali. Only 78" inches. Same as Tommy Hearns.
@rannnntanplan13 I'm not a huge Holmes fan, but I do recognize you're an idiot who doesn' t know boxing and just worships Tyson's penis.
Holmes would have killed Bowe - he was much too fast. Probably beat Ali, since Ali hated that type of fighter, would have crucified Foreman, almost beat Holyfield when he was over 40, and would have completely out-classed Dempsey.
Marciano would probably beat him, unless it got stopped on cuts. Lewis would have been a very hard fight too.
@rannnntanplan13 Holmes had a better jab than Ali. It was longer, harder and probably faster. The best jabber was Carl Williams, but Holmes was second.
Ali was more fluid, in just about everything. His legs were quite a bit better, and his chin much better. Holmes hit a lot harder, and was much tougher. Ali covered up when hurt, Holmes fired back with everything he had.
Frazier/Holmes would have been good. Ali hurt Frazier every fight though, so Frazier wouldn't Holmes' power.
@rannnntanplan13 Holmes was extremely fast, especially with his jab. Ali in Norton II or Foreman would have won 10 out of 10 against Tyson. Tyson didn't have the punch to hurt Ali, and would have been exhausted and a punching bag by round 4. Ali would have Tyson frustrated, and Tyson loved to quit. He loved it.
@rannnntanplan13 Young Ali didn't have a great chin, but older Ali had an extremely good chin, definitely better than Holmes. Ali always had better legs too. Holmes had a better jab, and hit much harder, and had a longer reach.
Young Holmes moved more, but older Holmes was less mobile, for sure.
I do agree, Ali would have a much easier time with Tyson because of his rock solid chin. But, Holmes would probably beat him too. Tyson wasn't much after a few rounds.
@rannnntanplan13 Tyson was a knockout puncher, Holmes wasn't. Foreman hit harder too, so would naturally get more knockouts. But, Holmes was champ longer. Foreman and Tyson were spectacular against certain fighters, but terrible against other ones that exposed them.
Do you remember Tyson crawling like Mr. Magoo against Douglas? Then Holyfield sodomized him the same way. Holmes was undefeated until he was 36 and way past his prime. Tyson got ass-raped before he was 24, by a bum.
@rannnntanplan13 Actually, when you said Tyson had stamina, I knew you had man-love for Tyson and aren't objective.
Holmes was faster, much taller, much better reach, much more heart, better defense. Tyson hit harder, and threw in combinations better, and had a better chin early in the fight, but a weak chin later. He loved to quit too, and look up to a stronger man.
@rannnntanplan13 Good grief, you don't know shit about boxing, huh?
Foreman didn't win many fights as champ, Frazier got bounced off the canvas by Bonavena, and Ali squeaked by disputed decisions a lot.
None of these guys were 48-0. Tyson never beat anyone good. Holyfield was never dominant. Liston barely held his title for a few fights. Foreman, the same. Holmes had the title a long time. I do think he lost to Carl Williams though.
@rannnntanplan13 Is the 13 year age? Tyson didn't hit nearly as hard as Shavers, although he was more accurate. The problem is, Holmes was hard to hit with more than one punch at a time.
@rannnntanplan13 Tyson had poor stamina, not good stamina. Shavers hit a lot harder than Tyson, although he didn't throw combinations as well.
The reality is, if you put them in together, you'd have some fights that Tyson would win, and some Holmes would win. I think Holmes would win a lot more though. But Tyson always had a puncher's chance because he threw combinations so well, combined with good punching power.
LMAO, so Frazier only had 2 years of prime? WTF maybe you had 2 years of prime (ages 4 and 5) but to say a boxer only has 2 years of prime makes you a fucking air head.
he was not in his prime, stupid punk, joe was nearly blind of 1 eye, and joe in 1971 was 1 year past his prime and he won ali, the joe who faced foreman was well past his prime, anyway george would win prime frazier because styles make fights¿you understand it ? piece of shit?.
but the style of joe was perfect to win the pussy holmes.
LOL well past his prime, Joe was 29 and undefeated when he got his ass kicked by foreman, enough of the excuses you need to learn how to take your beatings like men. Stop acting like a girly boy.
@topcat42 foreman had the power to stop joe, he was a monster, larry is a weak faggot conmpared with foreman, joe was much stronger than holmes, joe did a pressure like the hell, he had the best stamina in the history of hw, great move of head, great puncher, of course much harder than norton, joe would knock down larry, and he would win by ud, just like he won ali in 1971.
@topcat42 i do not know 100% if he was top 10 because he never faced 1 prime legend,, i am sure he is not top 5. i know that ali,joe louis, foreman,joe frazier,jack jonhson,evander holyfield,rocky marciano,mike tyson ,sonny liston are on holmes. because they dominated in his prime mcuh more than holmes did.
And men like lewis or ridick bowe would win holmes once 100%.
Where did I say Ali avoided Holmes novice boy? You loons stated Holmes ducked Ali, Foreman and Frazier, well where is your proof? You see I deal in reality while you deal in fantasy. Show me where Holmes declined to fight Frazier, Ali or Foreman, hurry up.
You deal in nonsense you heard somewhere and now repeat ad nauseum. You don't know enough about the subject to defend your 'opinions', you just recite stuff like a zombie. "Blah blah blah... greatest jab ever... blah blah blah... ducked no one... blah blah blah... top 10 heavy..."
You don't know what ducking means. What you don't know about boxing could fill the Atlantic.
Sorry if MOST boxing people agree with me. I can't help it if they have the knowledge that I do. You can't find ONE boxing expert to agree with you, shit you had to make up a story that Brenner did that's how desperate you are, lol. Anytime you want to have a live video debate out here on boxing let me know. I would make you look worse than I already have and that's saying something.
How many boxing people is "most"? Surely not even you would be stupid enough to claim to know the opinion of millions of boxing fans around the globe.
What did Brenner say about Holmes again, lol? Well I think it may be 100% since you can't find ONE expert to disagree with me, lol. Shit you had to make one up!
i see no long count but damn larry was rocked and he didnt stay rocked for long he has great resiliency...
xxliljpxx 1 month ago
after watching the video i didn't see any long count - where's the controversy?
tram84mvp 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The turnbuckle brought Holmes to life! HAHAHA
roscoegino 4 months ago
Comment removed
roscoegino 4 months ago
Renaldo was to tired to finish it
finalmind 4 months ago
I can't believe Snipes didn't go for broke! Give Holmes credit, he fought back hard and recouped quickly, but damn the way he went down Snipes should've been Champion of the world.........
ChrisinEC 5 months ago
respect to Snipes, he's full of fight. but Larry was too flat footed and was head hunting
zulubro 5 months ago
Amazingly quick recovery by Holmes.
counterstriving 5 months ago
holmes woulda taken either klit
DrShittyBottomHammer 7 months ago
Larry is down at 3:08-the count starts at 3:09-@ 3:14 the referee clearly shows the count of 6 with his fingers...to me it was a quick count
eazilyiapproach 7 months ago
holmes was fine by the count of 6
lee1990lee 8 months ago
Holmes was a hard man. He got up and immediately started fighting back. Snipes had heart and power but not much in the way of defense or a solid game plan.
halleck3 9 months ago
was that jeff daniels?
IamJacksColon4 10 months ago
@IamJacksColon4 Yes.
LedWilde 8 months ago
Man that holmes was built tough
mattimus1415 1 year ago
How can Holmes benefit from a long count if he is up on his feet?
What a load of hot air about nothing.
BruceinFalkirk 1 year ago 7
@BruceinFalkirk I agree 100%. I will say that Snipes' unorthodox, choppy style was very difficult to defend against. He was actually a better fighter than I gave him credit for.
Soulblackman 1 year ago
@BruceinFalkirk 'cuz he gets more time to recoup, duh!
ChrisinEC 5 months ago
@ChrisinEC
He doesn't need it if he's up on his feet and his head is already clear. Duh!
BruceinFalkirk 5 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Who wrote that he needed it? The ref could still give him a long count regardless if he needed it or not. So next time u try to "duh" somebody try use that thing inside your head and THINK of all the angles.............
ChrisinEC 5 months ago
@ChrisinEC
So what if he got more time to regroup? Nobody has ever complained about a long count if the recipient has been up quickly, only if the recipient is still down like Buster Douglas against Mike Tyson, for example.
Please pour yourself a large glass of sod off juice.
BruceinFalkirk 5 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Hang on man, I'm not even saying it was a long count. My initial response was to explain HOW one can benefit from a long count. But, how can you say "so what if he got more time to regroup?" So what? Again, I don't think Holmes got a long count but if he did what right does the referee have to take that KO opportunity away from Sinpes or any other fighter? A ref is to count at a regular speed and do his job correctly. A delay in counting gives an advantage to the hurt fighter!
ChrisinEC 5 months ago
Snipes complained Holmes got 14 seconds, but he was up around four. Even if you add in the time after the ref got to 8, it's all legit.
Where Holmes got the benefit is that if there hadn't been a ring turnbuckle there to crash into, he may have ended up in the 2nd row and never made it back.
The "controversy" is that when Snipes got hurt at the end, the ref stopped it, maybe too soon. But most people think only by a few punches. Renaldo was not going to win the fight at that point.
zenmachinefilms 1 year ago
mr snipes...........got stabbed with a set of scissors after this fight........did he fight after this? i actually saw this when this fight occured..
jezelljr 1 year ago
@jezelljr He got stabbed at the post fight press conference, as being the FOOL, he tried to go at Holmes, as he thought he "was robbed". His trainer had been in the process of cutting away his hand tape when he decided to fight another "round". World class FOOL.
Soulblackman 1 year ago
@Soulblackman larry holmes was 1 of my all time fav's.was great seeing his old tired ass beating buttebean..
jezelljr 1 year ago
@jezelljr When did he fight Butterbean?
Soulblackman 1 year ago
Bloody hell! Jeff Daniels in the ad between rounds lol
Wutangspam 1 year ago
Good lord Cosell... could you just shut the hell up for a half-second?
halleck3 1 year ago
always was a sucker for that right!
rejosha 1 year ago
@rejosha But unlike Lewis and Tyson as champion, Holmes could recover!
tightmadnesss 1 year ago
@tightmadnesss Best statement I ever seen!
76WestSports 10 months ago
When Holmes got himself in trouble, it often seems to be the seventh round. But he shows his great champion's heart and recuperative powers. He was always dangerous when hurt. Larry won the rest of the round after getting knocked down. That's the champion he was!
sac2la 1 year ago
4. Ezzard Charles was the most "shot" of all - he fought Marciano in his 94 & 95th bouts. Still he won at least 5 rounds on all cards in the first fight. Coming into the Marciano fights, Charles had lost 2 of his last four. Heck, from 1953 on, Charles went 16-17. They fought in '54...
cooljeb3 1 year ago
@cooljeb3 Youtube Rocky Marciano-The Truth- Part 1. It's interesting to say the least.
TheChoice264 1 year ago
@TheChoice264 That was the most unsophisticated & comprehensively lacking analysis I've ever seen...
Using a British voice, I'll say, "Pat Lawler defeated Wilfred Benitez. Benitez was 32 years old, Lawler was 27. Lawler also defeated Roberto Duran. Duran was 39, Lawler was 28..." It's misleading...
The point is that chronological age is but one factor in evaluating boxers. The quality of opposition, the amount of punishment absorbed, & number of years active are as important assessing fighters
cooljeb3 1 year ago
@TheChoice264 We could pick 4 fighters from undefeated former Super Middleweight Champ Sven Ottke & 4 from Middleweights Marvin Hagler & Sugar Ray Robinson. Like the Rock comparisons, non of these guys fought the same fighters in their primes &, like Rocky, only Ottke retired undefeated. Any critique worth anything would consider Hagler, Robinson, & Ottke beyond the ages of four "top" opponents.
I mean, the thing actually used Cooper, Liston, Williams & Foley to evaluate Ali - beyond incomplete.
cooljeb3 1 year ago
@TheChoice264 Not mention that Ali fought taller fighters, heavier fighters, younger guys, older guys... He fought the best in the US (black & white). He fought foreign guys like Bugnar, Chavalo, etc. He fought undefeated champs like Frazier & Foreman.
Ali fought from 1960 to 1980. From '64 onward, he fought primarily in title fights against top opposition - Holmes, Spinks, Shavers, Young, Norton, Ellis, Foster, Patterson, Quarry, Terrell, Bonavena, Mathis, Lyle.
Plus he was 6'3, 200+, & fast
cooljeb3 1 year ago
Anyone that believe Marciano fought quality opponents in their primes doesn't know the truth or isn't interested in the it.
1. That bald spot spotting Joe Louis that he beat was a shell of himself that retired after the fight
2. Archie Moore was anywhere from 39-44 years old & fought him in his 177th fight!
3. Jersey Joe was beating him on all cards when he got caught - Oh yeah, he was the oldest man to win the title in his effort before the Rock; his bouts with Marciano were his 70th & 71st.
cooljeb3 1 year ago
No controversy...move on!
TightSportsNetwork 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 As usual, you're misquoting me, you empty headed baboon.
Roy Jones had more offensive talent than Ali. He didn't have the chin. Don't change what I say, monkey boy.
Holmes would beat (not win, you sub-literate dolt) against Frazier. Bonavena almost did. Ali, with less punch, hospitalized him and TKO'd him.
Carl Williams was a better jabber than Holmes, and Holmes had the best heavyweight jab.
Holmes would KO Foreman. Speed beats power most of the time.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 to quote you "speed beats power most of the time" you've said it yourself,and prime ali was far faster than holmes.
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Was he? He had faster feet, and was much more graceful, but did he have a faster jab? Maybe not.
Ali was a limited fighter. He was very talented, but he didn't like fighting jabbers. Holmes had a longer reach (81" versus 78" for Ali), and a better jab.
Tough, tough fight for Ali. He wouldn't know what to do. Look at the problems Norton's jab caused him.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 what, so speed beats power most of the time only when it suits your agenda? ali was a limited fighter!! yes limited to knowing how to figure out styles that didn't suit him( norton ) when he'd lost the ludicrous speed he'd once posessed, we're talking a 70% ali( and thats generous ) against norton,in comparison to say a 1967 ali. oh i assure you ali's jab and general handspeed is far superior to holmes's, not that holmes was slow,in fact extremely quick, but ali could make 'extremely
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Now don't get stupid on me.
1967 Ali had his hands full for 7 rounds with an overage bum named Zora Folley. Watch the fight.
Thanks for assuring me, now I know it must be true. What a clown.
Speed normally beats power, but I don't think Ali's jab was ever faster, but if it was, it was minimally. He had a shorter reach. He'd lose the battle of jabs. But that's not the point. Holmes hand speed was excellent, if there was an advantage, it was slight. Foreman?
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01ha,ha i've watched the fight many times, 'hands full' maybe you don't watch much boxing? foremans another kettle of fish, and not one i care to discuss with someone who blows hot air over facts, if the village idiot calls me a 'clown' i can humour it, as for addressing the point, you're absolutely right, you didn't! holmes has no way of beating, the superior chin,conditioning,handspeed,footspeed,ring generalship,psychological warfare, that ali brings,WASHOUT!
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Now don't get into a bitch fit on me. Try to act like a man and not get hysterical.
Chin wouldn't matter, Ali didn't have a punch. Conditioning? Pretty close. Hand speed? Pretty close. Footspeed, Ali was the greatest in that. Ring generalship? Holmes. Psychological warfare? What a dumb thing to say. Holmes was way beyond it.
Holmes had reach, a better jab, and more power. Ali would lose from the outside. He couldn't match Larry there. Holmes by decision.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 bitch fit?hysterical?you can only wish you can make someone/anyone like this, certainly not your wife! chin absolutely would matter with the volume of punches ali would be connecting with, 'ali didn't have a punch' enough of one to ko foreman,liston, tko lyle,quarry,bonavena not a bad resume wouldn't you say?holmes beyond psychological warfare, not according to mr holmes who admitted that ali got to him b4 their fight with things 'he couldn't believe ali would ever say',ali every time.
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Frazier said Ali didn't have a punch, Ali said Ali didn't have a punch. But you'd know better?
Foreman was tired, Liston quit and then quit again, he didn't knock out Quarry, Lyle was a bum, and again was exhausted.
Ali couldn't knock out Norton. He'd have no chance of knocking out Holmes. Shavers couldn't.
Holmes butchered Ali. Good thing that psychological warfare worked. He had none of it. He just beat him like an old man. It was sad, really.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 exactly, holmes beat an old man and no amount of psychology would have helped,but he did tko quarry and if lyle was a bum what would you call todays heavies? all your comparisons are of an ali ten years past his prime, norton,shavers,whenever we compare holmes shall we compare the holmes that fought holyfield,and lost to oliver mcall? i like holmes a lot,and respect his skills/abilities he was a great heavy, but he just doesn't beat prime ali. frazier said ali couldn't punch? yhe same
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 TKO isn't the same. Any guy can score a TKO.
Yes, they asked Frazier how he could take the punishment in the first fight. Frazier said Ali didn't hit hard and more 'tantalized" etc...
You brought up the fights. I brought up Ali/Folley, which was 1967. How's that past his prime?
Today's heavys are HORRIBLE. I can't watch them. I just can't.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 in your world holmes is the greatest,good luck to you!
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 I don't particularly like Holmes, actually.
Ray Leonard, before he retired, is the best fighter in my opinion. Larry Holmes was a good fighter, but not nearly as complete.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 frazier that was saved from being ko'ed by the ref in the 2nd round of their 2nd fight? i've never said ali was a big puncher,but his volume over 15 rounds could rattle a mans teth loose - look at holyfield,great/proven chin but was stopped by non puncher toney,volume and accuracy. stick with me son you may learn something!
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 zora foley today training weights and with modern nutrition would have good chance against haye.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee better nutrition maybe, but not the weights, mr folley wouldn't need weights he was naturally over 200lb,and was as heavy as 228, he was quick,could punch,had good movement and could box nicely, you are right i for one wouldn't be in a rush to bet against him if he fought mr haye, also ta152ho1 thinks mr lyle was a bum, how much would you bet against mr lyle if he were to fight mr haye? again i would be in no rush whatsoever to place my bet!!
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 whts the hell!!! ron lyle a bum? this bum gave ali the hell!! this bum destroyed earnie shavers, this bum gave 1 fight to george foreman!!! , he won the english champion joe bugner ,ron lyle was not a bum, he was a very good boxer.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 and man, do not spend your time with this freak, he know nothing on boxing.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 he said ken norton was in his prime when fought holmeslol, he said holmes would ko george foreman in 4 rounds lol(i am not sure even if holmes would survive 4 rounds against george foreman, who was much stronger than shavers, the same hitting power and 100 times better chin and heart). the only way holmes might win foreman is by points running all fight to survive, if he exchange blows with foreman he is died in 4 rounds.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee the geezer is boring me to death already without opening another can of worms about norton holmes,foreman!!
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 you put tyson in the place of evander against foreman and you have tyson ko in 3 rounds.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 and lyle would rape david haye
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 You have nothing to teach.
You're just trying to weasel out of your statements.
You mentioned glass jaw, that means punching power, not 15 rounds. Anyone can score a TKO.
Holyfield went down from exhaustion, although his wasn't granite anyway.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 well if holyfields jaw 'wasn't granite' it shows mr tysons punch power is overrated. or do you think that fighting a faster fighter who's hitting you with punches that you either aren't seeing coming,or can't roll with,mixed with the higher concentration and movement to avoid more punishment causes the exhaustion/ko? i'm certainly not trying to 'weasel' out of any of my statements, thats just your way of diverting attention from you avoiding the points. the only other thing i agree
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Holyfield got knocked out a few times. That's not granite. Marciano, Ali, that's granite, although Ali didn't have a great chin when young.
Tyson's power was overrated, going by one punch. But, he had the ability to follow it quickly because he was fast and threw combinations well. He didn't land those against Holyfield.
Some guys did tire and have weak chins because of it. Tyson is a perfect example. Round 1, he'd take a sledge. Round 10, he'd go down much easier.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 what? you're saying ali's chin got better with age? nonsense,with age ali had more patience and he rolled with the punches better,you mistake this for better chin? holyfields chin was top drawer,marciano knocked down by light heavy moore,holyfields punch resistance just slowly deteriorated with age due to so many wars,as would marciano's if he had continued. you are right mr frazier would have clobbered mr tyson in the later rounds. mayweather against hearns,leonard,duran,benitez,
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 joe frazier would stop tyson by late tko, but joe would win holmes too.
and tyson would win holmes by tko.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee i would also pick frazier to dismantle tyson 6-8 rounds,and he probably beats holmes too, i can't see tyson beating prime holmes though, but hey its the heavies one punch can change everything! ha ha i like the lyle,haye comment!
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 i agree
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Of course his chin got better. If you get hit in the head 100 times, you're brain does learn how to react to it, and recover faster. Of course, then you have other consequences later. Ali got hit a lot, look at his head after Frazier 1. Norton broke his jaw. He said Shavers nailed him a few times. He just took a better shot. Some guys go the other way.
You make a novice mistake. Marciano was not hurt by Moore. He got up swinging. He was very off-balance when hit.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 ha ha ha, rubbish, your chin cannot get better,more sparring with better quality partners and patience resulting in better anticipation of the punches=rolling with them better which greatly lessens the impact. i make a novice mistake? you have no idea who you're talking to! correct marciano wasn't hurt but he also wasn't off balance,he was shocked and the punch momentarily took his legs away, so yes you can call it a flash knockdown, but walcott wobbled marciano with a right before
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@TA152H01 the left knocked him down, he wasn't badly hurt,but he was wobbled and it was a genuine knockdown. by the way when a fighter gets up swinging it can also be a sign he's hurt as he's on instinct,some fighters are more dangerous when hurt-nigel benn as one of many examples.
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 It was a flash knockdown. I never said it should have been ruled a slip, but he wasn't hurt, and he came back fighting. And he didn't look like Holmes after he got up.
He was much less hurt than Clay/Ali when he got knocked down by Cooper and Banks, not to mention Frazier in the 11th and 15th.
If you think Ali had a granite jaw, despite getting hurt much worse, and much worse guys like Banks, then Marciano's was that and more.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 look name fighters that mr marciano fought who were the equal in punch power of mr shavers,mr foreman,mr frazier,mr liston, even mr lyle?. i'll tell you - none! the 2 hardest punchers mr marciano fought was old,washed up mr louis and mr layne,who was a decent fighter,but not in the league of the aforementioned mr ali victims. so very hard to compare, i'm not saying mr marciano was 'chinny' anyway,and he may not have looked like holmes when he got up,but he also never fought anyone
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Frazier knocked Ali down, and almost knocked him out. That's not a plus for Ali.
Foreman didn't hit him cleanly. Shavers not too cleanly either, but Ali did say he never got hit so hard. Liston didn't hit him either, and it's funny you say Louis was washed up, but Liston wasn't.
The fact is, in 49 fights, Marciano was never seriously hurt. Ali was repeatedly. Marciano fought Moore, Walcott, Louis, Layne, LaStarza, Charles, etc... His chin was great. It had to be.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 doesn't detract from the fact that mr marciano never fought anybody that was in the same company as mr ali's opponents,and yes mr foreman did land cleanly,as did mr shavers,mr liston didn't really,but mr liston wasn't washed up as you're trying to suggest,watch mr liston for the 1st 5 rounds he looked the same as ever - dangerous and walking down mr clay, fair argument that he aged in the ring against mr clay,but clay would have that effect on any fighter in their advanced years.
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Liston looked terribly slow, and he was pushing his jab more than ever. He and Louis were both past their primes, but, were still able to beat a lot of fighters. Louis was actually favored to win against Marciano.
I disagree with your remarks about Foreman. He wasn't able to land a really clean shot to the head, and of course, after round two, he was exhausted. He wasn't a great fighter, he was extremely clumsy and had terrible stamina and hand speed.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 mr liston was made to look 'terribly slow' by the fast welterweight speed of of mr ali, and pushing his jab into thin air made it look clumsy, ali made much faster/lighter fighters look cumbersome, mr liston had no hope. look mr louis was washed up, whereas if liston had any other top 10 contender in with him that night the jabs would have looked great as they broke the opponents nose,and he would have overpowered them within 5 rounds and all the mr louis comparisons would have started
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@TA152H01 anyway i appear to be in the wrong argument as i never said mr marciano had a glass jaw,i don't believe mr marciano was necessarily chinny.
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Marciano got hit a lot harder than Ali. Ali very rarely got hit by clean shots with the guy on balance. Marciano, because of his style, got hit constantly by these shots.
Marciano would never have won 49 fights without an extremely solid chin. He got hit too often, particularly early in his career. Clay/Ali didn't get hit so much, because of the difference in style.
None of Ali's opponents were really great, except for Holmes. The rest fell a bit short.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 again with overexcited exclamations of mr liston is the best heavy ever!! don't try to tell me mr liston was anything but his normal self for the 1st 5 rounds,just made to look like he was moving through mud by THE fastest heavy ever. watch ali v foreman again, he caught ali with definitely 3 full blooded on the jaw/chin shots,with loads of glancing shots/head shots - watch the fight. mr foreman not a great? keep it real,particularly his whole career taken into consideration.for
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Liston is the best heavyweight ever? Too funny. There's nothing left to talk about if you believe that. He was a terribly slow fighter that was exposed. He was also a quitter.
Foreman was a slow fighter too. Slow fighters aren't great. Sooner or later they get exposed. Foreman was incredibly clumsy too.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 can you not read? i never said mr liston was the greatest heavy ever,maybe you don't realise but thats what a lot of respected boxing people were saying at the time mr liston was champ,and they were comparing mr liston to mr louis i was merely pointing this out dummy. slow fighters aren't great? what a ridiculous comment,do you actually know anything about boxing? mr louis wasn't very quick,he would have looked exactly like mr liston against mr clay,and mr marciano was positively
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@TA152H01 ponderous,and you call mr foreman clumsy!! lol not elagent and sophisticated like mr marciano then? ha ha and frazier didn't beat ali in the 1st fight? you're really exposing your ignorance now! i'm sure mr frazier and mr foreman were defending their titles against the likes of mr lastarza and mr cockell and a couple of light heavies,they'd have been champs longer than mr marciano - for example look at what mr frazier did to hall of fame,massive punching all time great light heavy
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@TA152H01 example list for me how many heavies you know at 41 years old after a 10 year retirement could have smashed young mr tyson into oblivion? marciano like i've said didn't get hit cleanly by anyone full stop as hard as shavers,foreman,frazier,even lyle,and was better defensively than generally people think,he didn't get hit cleanly very often, he obviously couldn't with that style . holmes the only 'great' ali fought? frazier doesn't stack up? liston? you've already told me foreman
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Frazier was close, but, not really. Who did he beat besides Ali? I didn't even give him that fight.
Liston wasn't close. Way too slow.
They were certainly very good fighters, but great? Neither held the title very long, there's your proof there.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 doesn't, but what prime greats did mr marciano beat? whilst your making your list,can you please make a list of the prime greats mr tyson beat aswell? as i'm told he's the greatest! lol
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Tyson? Who said anything about Tyson?
Marciano beat Walcott, Moore, Louis, Charles, LaStarza, Layne, etc... Louis was definitely a bit past his prime, of course, but still decent. LaStarza wasn't great, and neither was Layne, but both were good. Moore was a great light heavy, Charles was a very good fighter, and Walcott was a very good heavy.
All were skilled. Ali didn't beat too many skilled guys. Mostly slow guys.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 mr foster. you know absolutely nothing,you're a joke!louis a bit past his prime? he was a shell of what he had been, and "ali didn't beat many skilled guys" - these comments have made me realise that you know zilch and are not even worth trying to educate as your head is obviously jammed quite tightly up your own arse....
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@TA152H01 close to the power of mr shavers either.
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@TA152H01 marciano iron chin? lol, rocky faced lhw and cruisers and still he was down, if he would fight guys like foreman, he would be died in 2 rounds. rocky never was tested against 1 prime, big and strong real hw.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee He went down twice in his career, both times he got up right away and went back on the attack. Both were flash knockdowns.
Moore had him off-balance leaning forward. Walcott hit him as hard as he could. Again, both flash knockdowns.
Look at Clay/Ali against Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper. Particularly against Cooper, he was BADLY hurt. Doug Jones also hurt him. Frazier had him almost out in Rd 11, and knockdown in 15th. Yet, he's got an iron jaw. Marciano too.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 with you about is that todays heavies are horrible, i too cannot suffer them,although i find mr haye likeable,and enjoy watching him although he is flawed i wish him the best as long as he now walks the walk.
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 and holyfield had a fucking iron chin man, he took hits from foreman,tyson,bowe,lewis...
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Not just the heavies. Mayweather and Pacman are considered the best now. Can you imagine these clowns against Hearns and Leonard? I'm not sure they'd even get by guys like Pryor, Duran, Benitez, etc...
We're not in boxing's Golden Age, that's for sure.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 i'm with you on that, i can't envision him beating any of the aforementioned, he's very good, but he just plain ain't that good.
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@TA152H01 you know shit on boxing, every youtuber disagree with you, because you are a joke ,simply like that.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee You're a simpleton.
Most people go by what people tell them. Ali was better than Holmes, no one doubts that, so they assume he'd beat him. But, styles make fights, and Holmes was the wrong style for Ali. And Ali had problems against certain styles.
I'd pick Holmes. But, Ali wouldn't be outclassed, and might win. But, I'd have to give Holmes the edge based on Ali's trouble against jabbers.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@jimmynablee but he was a pretty good quality fighter at best,and if a prime folley were to fight david haye tonight how much would you bet against folley? i certainly wouldn't risk too much!
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 holmes is realy a legend.he got my respect when he fighted with 40+ years and beated undefeated gold medalist ray mercer and lost by decision vs holyfield.
vegetayy 1 year ago
@vegetayy and george foreman? who destroyed michael moorer, moorer won evander holyfield,foreman lmost knocked evander out 2 times,foreman will be better and greater than holmes always. this idiot said holmes would ko foreman in 4 rounds lol. this idiot said norton was in his prime when he faced holmes lol, holmes did not have the chin to take the hits from foreman
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee yeah.but forman has not good skills.when u are fast skilled and have balls u can outpoint forman.prime ali of the 60`s allways defeats forman.prime larry holmes defeats lewis holyfield but not tyson.
vegetayy 1 year ago
@vegetayy yes i agree, no debate on ali 64-67, but ali late 70s would not win foreman , ali wanted no part of the rematch against foreman. ali had a iron chin, the fastest hw of all time, great reflexes,great heart... but larry holmes was a pussy.
and the boxing is not all skill, foreman was a legend in his way. and of course the styles make fights, tyson would win holmes always!! it is because tyson wanted fight against holmes any day in the week,but he wanted no part of foreman.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@vegetayy earnie shavers had a weak chin, and holmes could win.
weaver,spoon,smith,snipes,shavers,old norton,berbick... they gave holmes the hell imagine george foreman.
joe frazier would win holmes 100%, prime ali would play with holmes.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee Foreman got beaten, badly, by Jimmy Young. You think he'd have a chance against Holmes?
Holmes by KO 4. Foreman would be tired by three, and groping like a mad drunkard as soon as he got hit.
There's a reason why Foreman wouldn't fight Holmes. Holmes was his God. He cowered from the thought of fighting Holmes. He knew Holmes would give him an unwholesome beating.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 george foreman would ko holmes always, and holmes avoided foreman , george was the champ in 1973 and 74 , and he would fight and ko holmes always, but holmes was not nobody in this time. the only way that holmes might beat foreman is running all fight to survive. " larry holmes would ko george foreman in 4" lol really anyone must kill your family , you deserves that. lol
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee Holmes didn't avoid Foreman, the reverse was true.
He'd knock Foreman out.
Foreman was tired by the third round. Holmes would be able to land at will against him. Foreman went down from shots from Lyle that didn't even hit cleanly.
Holmes in 4.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 every fan of the boxing are laughing on you when you said larry holmes would ko george foreman ahahahah, i have 2 sms (private). lol
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee Actually, if you were smart enough to know how to use Google, you'd see there's a thread on EastSideBoxing asking just how badly Holmes would have beaten Foreman.
Not many people who understand boxing think Foreman would win. He had a big punch, so anything is possible, but, it's very unlikely. You don't understand boxing, at all, so you don't understand it. It's difficult for you, I understand.
But, smarter people know Holmes. In 4!
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 and larry holmes your hero avoided jimmy young and ron lyle, because young was stolen against ali,shavers and norton.
and ron lyle destroyed shavers and he gave a fight to foreman. larry holmes only won bums, larry holmes is a lie.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee I don't really like Holmes, but I like Foreman even less.
Jimmy Young would have been killed by Holmes. He'd try to outbox a guy that was taller, and had a longer jab, and a faster jab.
Young was too inconsistent to get a title shot. He'd win a big fight, then lose to a bum.
I hope you and your parents get hit by a car, so your bloodline stops. You're too stupid to have kids. They'll be a drain on society.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 lol i feel sorry for you, lol you know shit on boxing
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 You keep saying that, but you're the ape that is only 13, or acts like it. Larry Holmes ruled the heavyweight division for many years, and won 48 fights in a row.
He trounced Ali's master - Ken Norton. A man that hospitalized Ali when he was still young.
I don't know why you hate Holmes, but get over it. The man was the real deal.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 " ken norton in his prime when fought holmes" lol, you are a bum.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Foreman took an unwholesome beating against Holyfield. Holmes was competitive the whole fight. You don't know much if you disagree with that.
Spinks lost the second fight, but Holmes did look bad both of them. He was old. 36 years old was past his prime, like it is most fighters.
Foreman was too slow, and wouldn't fight Holmes. Holmes kept asking for that fight. He'd rape Foreman.
Ali would have been beaten by the jab. He had problems with good jabbers.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 i respect holmes,but beat ali? get real!
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 I think Ali was a better fighter, but Ali would have fits against Holmes. Ali didn't like jabbers, and Holmes had a better jab than Ali. Ali couldn't fight inside, since Holmes hit harder. He'd have to try to outjab a guy with a better jab.
Holmes would probably win. I don't know what Ali could do, but stay outside and lose. He didn't have any knowledge about fighting any other way.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 on the presumption we're talking prime ali,say straight after the cleveland williams fight against prime holmes i would say holmes had a stiffer jab,and punched generally with more authority than ali, but as ali himself would say, holmes would feel like he was surrounded ali was so blindingly fast of foot and hand, i'd pick ali to win an absolute landslide points win or even possibly a stoppage in the championship rounds( 13,14,15 ) ali's faster jab and hand/footspeed would dominate
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Watch Ali the fight right after Cleveland Williams (Zora Folley). This guy was a bum, and a past the prime bum. He gave Ali all sorts of problems, even in his prime.
Cleveland Williams was made to order for Ali, and was way past his prime. Ali was so talented, against certain guys he looked brilliant. Against other guys, he looked very ordinary.
Holmes was a very bad style for Ali, and I think his jab was quicker, or at least as quick. Footwork though, no one was Ali
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 and prime ali would win holmes hands down, you are pathetic you have your head in the ass of larry holmes.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee Jimmy, go drive fast and get into a car accident.
No one would miss you.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01 quick' look ordinary. liston has one of the best jabs in history,and would be in any heavyweight champ jabs top 5 best,he couldn't get anywhere near and his reach 84 inch to holmes 81, ernie terrel with his 82 inch reach could only catch air, and by the way ali's reach is 80' rather than the 78' you stated. i must watch a different fight when i see ali against folley, as i see ali have an easy relaxed night,didn't see him 'problem' ali at all, folley was past it i'll give you that
buzzinhard71 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Again, you try to avoid the obvious. Liston didn't have a great jab in the sense it was always useful. It was punishing, but very slow. Ali had no problems with slow fighters. Holmes had a very fast, punishing jab. Ali couldn't avoid it.
You can't compare a slow jab with a fast one. Liston's was good, in the sense it was hard if he landed it. But, it was very slow.
Even Ali said Folley gave him trouble, so he had to wait for him to get tired.
Holmes was 50x Folley
TA152H01 1 year ago
@buzzinhard71 Oh, and Ali's reach was 78", not 80". They measured it on Wide World of Sports. Do a search on Chamberlain and Ali. Only 78" inches. Same as Tommy Hearns.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Take a look in the mirror. You're behavior is apelike.
Just say no to drugs.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 I'm not a huge Holmes fan, but I do recognize you're an idiot who doesn' t know boxing and just worships Tyson's penis.
Holmes would have killed Bowe - he was much too fast. Probably beat Ali, since Ali hated that type of fighter, would have crucified Foreman, almost beat Holyfield when he was over 40, and would have completely out-classed Dempsey.
Marciano would probably beat him, unless it got stopped on cuts. Lewis would have been a very hard fight too.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Carl Williams had an 86" reach, and had an incredible jab.
Norton was champion when he fought Holmes and very much in his prime. He wasn't the one that tired, Holmes was.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Holmes beat Norton easily, especially when fresh. He did tire though, that's for sure.
Frazier would kill Norton, mainly because of styles. Norton didn't like hookers who moved in. it would have been ugly.
Norton wasn't old against Holmes, he was in his prime.
Holmes might have knocked Frazier out too. His jab would have killed him. Frazier would have a chance though, for sure, but I'd pick Holmes.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Holmes had a better jab than Ali. It was longer, harder and probably faster. The best jabber was Carl Williams, but Holmes was second.
Ali was more fluid, in just about everything. His legs were quite a bit better, and his chin much better. Holmes hit a lot harder, and was much tougher. Ali covered up when hurt, Holmes fired back with everything he had.
Frazier/Holmes would have been good. Ali hurt Frazier every fight though, so Frazier wouldn't Holmes' power.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Not so, just look at Ali. He got knocked down and hurt when young. Not so when he got older, against better competition.
Some fighters lose their chin too. The brain is a dynamic entity. It can learn, and it can get damaged.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Tyson got hit by a washed up Pinklon Thomas, who was on drugs at that time. Buster Douglas annihilated him.
Guys that weren't afraid of him, hit him often. But ,most guys were afraid of him.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Holmes was extremely fast, especially with his jab. Ali in Norton II or Foreman would have won 10 out of 10 against Tyson. Tyson didn't have the punch to hurt Ali, and would have been exhausted and a punching bag by round 4. Ali would have Tyson frustrated, and Tyson loved to quit. He loved it.
TA152H01 1 year ago
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TA152H01 1 year ago
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TA152H01 1 year ago
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TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Young Ali didn't have a great chin, but older Ali had an extremely good chin, definitely better than Holmes. Ali always had better legs too. Holmes had a better jab, and hit much harder, and had a longer reach.
Young Holmes moved more, but older Holmes was less mobile, for sure.
I do agree, Ali would have a much easier time with Tyson because of his rock solid chin. But, Holmes would probably beat him too. Tyson wasn't much after a few rounds.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Tyson was a knockout puncher, Holmes wasn't. Foreman hit harder too, so would naturally get more knockouts. But, Holmes was champ longer. Foreman and Tyson were spectacular against certain fighters, but terrible against other ones that exposed them.
Do you remember Tyson crawling like Mr. Magoo against Douglas? Then Holyfield sodomized him the same way. Holmes was undefeated until he was 36 and way past his prime. Tyson got ass-raped before he was 24, by a bum.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Actually, when you said Tyson had stamina, I knew you had man-love for Tyson and aren't objective.
Holmes was faster, much taller, much better reach, much more heart, better defense. Tyson hit harder, and threw in combinations better, and had a better chin early in the fight, but a weak chin later. He loved to quit too, and look up to a stronger man.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Good grief, you don't know shit about boxing, huh?
Foreman didn't win many fights as champ, Frazier got bounced off the canvas by Bonavena, and Ali squeaked by disputed decisions a lot.
None of these guys were 48-0. Tyson never beat anyone good. Holyfield was never dominant. Liston barely held his title for a few fights. Foreman, the same. Holmes had the title a long time. I do think he lost to Carl Williams though.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Is the 13 year age? Tyson didn't hit nearly as hard as Shavers, although he was more accurate. The problem is, Holmes was hard to hit with more than one punch at a time.
Tyson had no stamina.
Holmes by KO, Round 9.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Well, if you think Tyson had good stamina, you obviously are very biased. Most people consider him to have poor stamina.
He also didn't hit nearly as hard as Shavers, and Shavers didn't knock him out. Knocking a guy down and knocking a guy out are two different things.
Consider what Buster Douglas did to Tyson. Buster Douglas wasn't as good as Holmes and ass-raped Tyson.
Tyson would have a chance, though, but, Holmes would be favored.
TA152H01 1 year ago
Ridiculous! If anything, the count was fast!
Remember, the count starts when either his knees, his gloves or his butt touches the canvas, not when the punch lands and not when he is going down!
primeboxers 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13 Tyson had poor stamina, not good stamina. Shavers hit a lot harder than Tyson, although he didn't throw combinations as well.
The reality is, if you put them in together, you'd have some fights that Tyson would win, and some Holmes would win. I think Holmes would win a lot more though. But Tyson always had a puncher's chance because he threw combinations so well, combined with good punching power.
TA152H01 1 year ago
That was definitely a long count, at least three seconds over, although I don't think it would have changed anything. Holmes was a Hell of a fighter.
TA152H01 1 year ago
I wholeheartedly agree. The way Larry came back poppin' Snipes, he was far from finished. But Snipes was tough and game to win, no question.
NYVoice 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13
LMAO, so Frazier only had 2 years of prime? WTF maybe you had 2 years of prime (ages 4 and 5) but to say a boxer only has 2 years of prime makes you a fucking air head.
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42
he was not in his prime, stupid punk, joe was nearly blind of 1 eye, and joe in 1971 was 1 year past his prime and he won ali, the joe who faced foreman was well past his prime, anyway george would win prime frazier because styles make fights¿you understand it ? piece of shit?.
but the style of joe was perfect to win the pussy holmes.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee
LOL well past his prime, Joe was 29 and undefeated when he got his ass kicked by foreman, enough of the excuses you need to learn how to take your beatings like men. Stop acting like a girly boy.
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 foreman had the power to stop joe, he was a monster, larry is a weak faggot conmpared with foreman, joe was much stronger than holmes, joe did a pressure like the hell, he had the best stamina in the history of hw, great move of head, great puncher, of course much harder than norton, joe would knock down larry, and he would win by ud, just like he won ali in 1971.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee
Do you think Holmes was a top 10 Heavyweight?
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 i do not know 100% if he was top 10 because he never faced 1 prime legend,, i am sure he is not top 5. i know that ali,joe louis, foreman,joe frazier,jack jonhson,evander holyfield,rocky marciano,mike tyson ,sonny liston are on holmes. because they dominated in his prime mcuh more than holmes did.
And men like lewis or ridick bowe would win holmes once 100%.
jimmynablee 1 year ago
@jimmynablee
You don't know? You can't even say if Holmes was top 10 or not? It's not a tough question even for a girly bot like you.
topcat42 1 year ago
@jimmynablee
You are a weak faggot compared to a girl. Foreman knocked Frazier around like a baby in diapers. Holmes would beat Frazier in a tough UD.
topcat42 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13
You have more excuses than a broad on the rag. Are you sure you're not female?
topcat42 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13
LOL I'm not talking about his chin you idiot. He knocked Frazier senseless and almost ko'd him.
topcat42 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13
ALMOST ko'd, LMAO wtf are you smoking dude? Ok then Frazier was ALMOST ko'd by George Chavalo.
topcat42 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13
Where did I say Ali avoided Holmes novice boy? You loons stated Holmes ducked Ali, Foreman and Frazier, well where is your proof? You see I deal in reality while you deal in fantasy. Show me where Holmes declined to fight Frazier, Ali or Foreman, hurry up.
topcat42 1 year ago
You deal in nonsense you heard somewhere and now repeat ad nauseum. You don't know enough about the subject to defend your 'opinions', you just recite stuff like a zombie. "Blah blah blah... greatest jab ever... blah blah blah... ducked no one... blah blah blah... top 10 heavy..."
You don't know what ducking means. What you don't know about boxing could fill the Atlantic.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
@FlaviusConstantius
Sorry if MOST boxing people agree with me. I can't help it if they have the knowledge that I do. You can't find ONE boxing expert to agree with you, shit you had to make up a story that Brenner did that's how desperate you are, lol. Anytime you want to have a live video debate out here on boxing let me know. I would make you look worse than I already have and that's saying something.
topcat42 1 year ago
You found out who Teddy Brenner was yet?
How many boxing people is "most"? Surely not even you would be stupid enough to claim to know the opinion of millions of boxing fans around the globe.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
@FlaviusConstantius
What did Brenner say about Holmes again, lol? Well I think it may be 100% since you can't find ONE expert to disagree with me, lol. Shit you had to make one up!
topcat42 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13
Sparring sessions LMAO, man this is like debating a 7 year old.
topcat42 1 year ago
@rannnntanplan13
Holmes in his prime would have Tyson trying to bite his ear off in 7 rounds.
topcat42 1 year ago