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From: Bkrful
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  • can that guard defend punch to the face ?

  • who's the fag at 1:00 :P :P

  • @hakim0436 I'm not a kyokushin guy but, logically, a guy can take lots of punishment if he blocks. But if he gets hit in the vital parts, he goes down. So it is a measure of skill in fighting.

  • daaa.... se pegan durazooo... sin asco le dan

  • Kyokushin wants oponent to feal the pain :) his not gona get knockt out and get away from it that easy)) knock out anytime but giving pain to oponents body is better, combine that two if u want the result will alwayes be victoriouse. Knock out anytime, but some asswopping can be blend in too :D

  • @egdqv13234 As my sensei says: pain is pointless. What is the use of that? =) Being dumb gorilla's trying to show how strong they are? In a street fight you need intelligence aswell. Reflexes.

  • @LeBadman looks like your lost and understod nothing about what i said in my comment. If u think that kyokushinkai training and experiance when u obviously dont know anything about the style, on top of that i belive u dont know anything about fighting at all :) intelligence is a private thing, reflexes training? kyokushinkai on its sparring trainings learn ho to use them :) streangth and endurance on top of that cardio aswell. a fighter needs to do more when just train in dojo mate.

  • @egdqv13234 LoL sure. Looks like you cannot write correct English. The style is that you are not allowed to hit the face. They stand there like disabled monkeys hitting each other's chests. In real life, people will go at your face. You have to prepare for that. Of course I know about fighting, I am a 1st dan in ju jitsu. Don't go assume things about people. In our dojo we only spar once maybe in two months. For the rest we just do light, friendly training. :) Strength and endurance = gym.

  • @egdqv13234 I think you are a frustrated guy. You can read it from your sentences. Nobody wants aggression. There is no need to knock out. You know when you'll knock a person out, but you don't actually need to do it. You just simulate it (i.e. not touch the person @ knock out spot, just reach your fist to 1 inch from his chin and pull back). Reflexes are very important. It is not always the stronger man who wins.

  • @LeBadman pain in training is not pointless :) in kyokushin for example even thai boxing! you train more when just technicals enduarance streangth. on trainings and specially sparr trainings you harden ur body into becomeing a killing machine, no obstacle will prevent u from going down u know what im on about? :) opponents intelegents depends more on himself :) becouse sen sei cant teach u how to use ur brain and choose the words that could actuelly prevent ur opponent to attack you.

  • @egdqv13234 Prevent opponent from attacking you: going out of his way. Duh.. and also giving atemi's. You don't need to harm your partner in order to win. You just use control techniques like in ju jitsu. If there is someone hurt in our dojo, our sensei will definitely ban that person from the dojo. You have to have respect for each other. That's why you say "osu" and bow to each other each time before you fight. I'm pretty sure you're not a high grade neither. It's DEFENSE, not KILLING. Idiot.

  • @LeBadman Congratts your comments are on the Troll scale now :) once again its official Your more confused then u wure before. and thats my frined makes you the one who is a frustrated ignorant fool :) no point on wasteing my time on someone who doesnt even have any sense in his comments but his own ignorant fail facts. ur the one who needs to do more when just study ur smartpants talk couse if ur in a real fight :) get ready to be K.O,

  • @egdqv13234 You need to go to a university and learn to write correct English. I'll get back to you when I'm done watching my movie. ;)

  • @egdqv13234 You are not a martial artist at all. It is not about 'victory'. That word doesn't exist in the humble Budo practicioner (i.e. the martial artist).

  • @LeBadman and ur saying im not a martial artist as a comback for me bringing the fact that u dont know what martial arts is all about ?:) id say thats other way around. and u propably got lot to learn since ur comments only try to proove by your own opinions and not based on fact and experiance that all martial artist experianced in there lives. good luck to you, and hope you dont get confused in the future....

  • @egdqv13234 I know very well what martial arts is about. ;) It's about self defense. Not about attacking. What happens if you hit a guy first? You go to jail. That's right. You need to defend. Never attack. There is no killing involved. I have over eight years experience in Martial Arts. What do you have? Are you a second dan, hm? =)

  • @LeBadman Kyokushin is all about conditioning, speed, power and an intelligent mind...You're ignorant to think it's just a brawling sport with no sense to it.

    Kyokushin is the HARDEST martial art in the world, to say it's unrealistic is a farce from an ignorant mind. ^_^ Desu~.

  • @corvanjer In reality, someone hits you in the face. That aspect is unrealistic. You will be trained to hit the body. The body is the first thing people block. You are not trained to have the reflex to block your face because no one has been attacking it. That's what I'm talking about. It is also pointless (and don't you dare speak against my 8th dan sensei) to hit each other as hard as you can. That is just pointless. Intelligence is not brute force. Brute force is for monkeys.

  • So if you're not at least a second dan, you have no say in this. End of story.

  • @corvanjer Wait I get it.. you're one of those people who wants to die early. I mean, if you suffer body shots for years, guess what's going to happen? That's right, your body will produce cancers. You don't want to die early from organ cancers do you?

  • In fact, at our dojo, we are not allowed to hit hard. That's just disrespectful and pointless. To that aspect, ju jitsu is better because you learn speed, power and technique and you don't have to suffer or risk cancers or body problems from it. Now that is what one calls smart!

  • @LeBadman So you're saying that in a "realistic situation" you're going to be able to use your jiujitsu powers to pin him down without taking any hard shots to eitehr the face or body?

    In a REALISTIC situation you're going to be confronted by more then one attacker, that's a realistic situation.

    Also I would like you to name ONE Kyokushin karateka who's gotten cancers from being hit :|.

    You could be a mcdojo for all I know.

  • @corvanjer No that is not what I am saying. And that 'mcdojo' crap is just another invention that some idiot on this planet invented. Don't go after other people's memes, it just makes you look ignorant. Have your own thoughts. Dojos are dojos. People go there to learn to defend themselves. In a realistic situation you can't say what will happen - but you can say that it's possible people will go for the face. Multiple attackers? Possible.

  • @LeBadman A mcdojo is a legitimate term used to describe money-guzzling americanized dojo's...Where you're able to get a black belt in a year. That sir is a mcdojo, where you've bought your belt with no effort.

    A 'Mcdojo' is not a meme.

    To the same standard - Jiujitsu locks and moves can also procrure cancers - from repeated hyper-extension.

    It's all about conditioning. You don't try to run a fucking 40km marathon with no experience - You TRAIN YOUR BODY TO HANDLE IT. ^_^.

  • My girlfriend is a doctor and she agrees that cancers can develop from severe body injuries, even to malfunction of the liver/kidneys. Your body is not a lifeless rock. It has organs. Vital organs. You must handle with care. So next time don't make yourself look stupid by using memes such as 'mcdojo' and have thoughts of your own. Mcdojos don't exist. Only people who invent those stupid words.

  • @LeBadman Also, pushing someone past their limits is not disrespectful in any way - That's why you go to dojo, to learn. You're not going to learn anything if you don't experience it first hand. You're never going to learn to fight back if you're never pushed.

    Now stop trolling.

  • @corvanjer Trolling - yet another stupid invented word. You must been born a sheep. All you do is echo out society memes. Not very interesting. I like to discuss, but not with someone who's attached to society like a puppet on a string. Learn does not mean hurting someone. That is why it is learning. Learning = techniques. Power has nothing to do with it. That is pure fallocentric macho act. Yeah most kids in our dojo never really fight. They just do techniques very softly.

  • Of course, this 'being pushed' stuff is called randori, as you know. Mostly one spends time learning the techniques. First, you must learn them, slowly. Then gradually faster. Then with power. But it is not very smart to go do techniques full power if you don't mentally master them in the first place. Hitting someone inefficiently makes you lose 95% of the power you put into that technique. If you give one good technical punch, it is a million times better than a gorilla one without technique.

  • @LeBadman You probably think TKD is the best martial art in the world.

    You trollin' bro.

  • @corvanjer I'll go have conversations with people who have a brain. Thanks. ;)

  • i think the no punchin in the face rule is kinda stupid but thats just me

  • @bahamasartits Usual meaning but its not really true , first in kyokushin tournament u cant use the protective gear.... so how u wnt punch to the face with bare knuckle... But im agree is look weird... In gojo we train real karate jitsu , with face punch and graps and throw.... So you always can try ...

  • @KankuPitbull i train in boxing and i practice kick boxing with my frenz i wanna do so jiujitsu and TKD

  • Kyokushin karate in my opinion in one of the most effective traditional asian martial arts. It has transitioned very well into MMA and Kickboxing, however in my opinion Mauy Thai is the bees nees of striking martial arts. If Kyokushin allowed punches to the head in competition I feel KK fighters would have a much easier time than it already does transitioning into MMA or Kickboxing.

  • Japanese women LOVE to see men get kicked in their genitlas

  • .....and i was correct. people always talk about (on youtube anyways) how karate is so great blah blah blah. from what i've seen and sparred with. Karate is a damn joke. the only thing it teaches is how to be a gigantic dork! it gives nerdy kids some false confidence. and i'm not pickin on karate if feel the same way about taekwondo, kung fu, etc.. (ps i concider kyokushin karate, some people make a fuss) in reality its all just gay as shit.

  • @MegaHelloutube I have the answer to all your thoughts, and you can find it from your own message: "from what i've seen and sparred with."

  • @MegaHelloutube You are truly a disgrace to martial artists. Someone should open your narrow mind.

  • ...before i even watch this i'm gonna guess every single ko on here is because for some damn reason karate guys always fight with their hands so damn low...

  • @MegaHelloutube Because it is pointless to keep them protecting the head all the time.

  • @ChaosXorn12 I felt like giving up in my first 3 months. But I endured and I somehow love the training even though my body and mind says otherwise.

  • @bison666 What martial arts do you learn?

  • @omgyeaXD in sports yes, in full contact no :)

  • @oOGreatLordOo I've done kyokushin for 3 years. Its not full contact if its not punching to the face. I'm sick of them always saying they are full contact bareknuckle when they all are horrible at punching. Which is why I stopped doing it, its unrealistic fighting

  • Kyokushin Sucks.

  • @bisom666 any kyukushin fighter would make you his girlfriend

  • Kyokushin Karate is pretty awesome

  • They can't punch to the head? Funny

  • the white guy at 0:55 was awesome! great kicks!

  • osu !! nice fighters ..

  • @ChaosXorn12 why do u think in mma that u dont learn shit?

    im having respect for any martial artist, i think there aer areas that they can always beat me, but in general a mixed martial artist knows more aspects, so he is the better fighter

    mma is hard too, there are a lot of workouts all the time, gotta keep it up

    sparring is a regular part of it as well.

    i dont get how u come up with that opinion

  • awesome!

    those are some serious mawashi geris!

  • You know what if you learned something besides kyokushin you would improve your fighting skills as a more well rounded fighter. But coming on here talking shit to mma guys that's just plain retarded. No offense grow up.

  • mma is not easy because you don't learn anything, mma is easier because you have more options. you sound like a child, or teenager. quit acting like a hardass coming on here saying you can fuck ppl up. MMA is hard in it's own right but it isn't compared to karate or jujitsu by itself. lol kyokushin and any martial art is easy if you are in shape. you're just talking out of your ass. and it's OSU! not Ouss. retard.

  • amazing

  • that's because in kyokushin you can't punch to the face. because it's too easy to knock ppl out that way. which forces you to fight better. a kyokushin karateka can knock someone out with a body shot. if you've never done anything like that, you wouldn't last a min in a match.

  • @a7x3186: They might have problems against a fighter well trained in targeting the face.. say a Western boxer or a Nak Muay (Muay thai fighter).

  • @a7x3186 Fights usually take 20-30 seconds. A minute is kind of long.

  • @LeBadman kyokushin rules, 2- 2 min rounds, and a 3rd overtime round if needed. championship fights are 3 minutes. i've gone the distance on a few occasions.

  • @a7x3186 not knock out but knock down

  • @xxxN1nJa5k1LZxxx lol oh no, you can knock them out. trust me.

  • @a7x3186 dayum well you learn somthing new every day

  • garbage? lol that's what kyokushin fighters make there non kyokushin opponents look like...lol garbage.

  • Is this What they call the Leitai? What are these tournaments called?

  • Well that all looks pretty brutal, no doubt these guys are tough. Its an interesting discussion though the lack of head punches. If you aren't wearing pads its seems entirely necessary to leave them out. Apparently there are far more serious injuries in boxing since the advent of using gloves because before they were introduced fighters generally stuck to body blows, or so I've heard. Gloves may in fact be more dangerous than none. But on the other hand I see very little blocking...

  • ...here of any kind and certainly no guarding the head. And as anyone who trains knows, your martial arts is only as good as the techniques you practice and drill over and over again. I'd be a bit worried that if all my sparring experience left my chin exposed this way when it came to a non competition fight thats exactly what I'd do. I did ten years of wado ryu when I was younger and it was a hard lesson to learn when I first began sparring with other MAs and they'd clock my chin at any moment.

  • Yeah, No doubt kyokushin fighters are tough but I always these fightings as "Who can take more punches and kicks" rather than "who can knock down the opponent without getting hit by opponent". I find later in old style / jka shotokan fightings.

  • this is like watching a martal arts movie!

  • only way to train your head is to hit yourself in the face enough times to tell your brain not to clock out on you so easily, like endurance, but even then getting kicked has much more velocity then u want to get hit with.

  • Although someone gave you a -1 response, I agree and disagree with you. It really depends on the person AND how hard they were hit, where, and when.

  • ok =]

  • kyokushin id have to say is one of the most deadliest full contact sports. one its close range combat, full force hits, limited space. Unlike mma fights, its straight "EAT THE BLOWS and TOUGH IT OUT" kind of scenario

  • mma is harder than this considering you can punch your opponent in the face do chokes,slams or simply beat him in the face with your elbow till he faints, but i would rate kyokushin a close second in therms of toughness

  • true true, im just saying being that your so close and dont really use space provided u get hit ALOT more. Of course mma with its lack of rules is harder, but for brutal id say having to STAND in the way of those blows for the most part is ALOT ALOT of endurance then mma in some aspects.

  • Kyokushin is one of MMA's top martial arts used when the fight remains on two feet. Kyokushin-kan is slowly reintroducing strikes to face and punches. When Mas Oyama first opened Oyama Dojo, strikes to the head were permitted. Not until tournament fighting became big with Kyokushin that strikes to the face were made illegal because too many Karatekas were ending up in the ER or seeing the doc. Since the development of better gloves that allow movement and provide protection, it is coming back

  • lol mma ain't anything compared to this, i am a kyokushin fighter turned mma, mma is a walk in the damn park for me compared to fighting full contact kyokushin. mma is easy because you can go to the ground and breathe better, in kyokushin your relentless getting punched in the gut and kicked in the legs and head untill someone goes down. mma a is 10x easier because of there punches to the face, chokes, slams and what not.

  • @a7x3186 kyokushin sure is tough, its the toughest training i have ever been to be honest, tougher than muay thai, boxing, mma or shotokan.

    but the thing is that u are not a better fighter. i prefer fighting styles where u get hit the least opssible and work in a defensive way.

    its not as tough, but it is as effective, so its actually more intelligent.

  • @CarlitoJohnson Well said! Osu!

  • 1:06, man good thing that one didnt connect perfectly, haha what a sport, these guys totally pummel each other

  • 1:05

    casi le saca el craneo

    jjajajaj

  • god humans look retarded..

  • be quiet if ya would please?

  • Why do you think so?

    I'm from Shotokan myself and I respect Kyokushin fighters very much. Neither Shotokan nor Kyokushin kumite is a complete fighting simulation but both give excellent practice of speed and accuracy or strength and durability, depending on the style.

  • This is a really great fighting style.

  • retard

  • The reason this style doesn't allow head punches is because of the strong emphasis on tamashiwara. Ever seen Mas breaking rocks, or bricks? He supposedly made the decision to keep sparring realistic enough without putting participants in danger of being hit in the head and suffering broken necks, jaws and skulls from hand strikes. It's much more difficult to kick jodan than it is to punch jodan, right?

  • Thats is true and kyokushin tournament dont use cloves thts why we dont punch the face or the head. Punch to the face with bare knuclke are not alllow in most countries as a sport. Thats why MMA and other gage fighting are using cloves because they are allow to puch the head.

  • respect!

  • 1:06 incredible

  • i think that's stupid, no face shots. those relentless body shots you take will do more damage to them then any face shots, plus it's easier to dodge face shots. all those body hits are a lot more dangerous.

  • "all those body hits are a lot more dangerous"

    the training style makes kyokushin fighters to get used to body kicks and punches. you can't train your head as resistant as your body.

  • The impact will damage you no matter how much you train. Studies showed that boxers had more long term damage from body shots then face shots.

    Besides, if your going to be resilient the body shots, then there's no reason to attack it.

  • why dont they punch to the head?

  • not aloud to only punches to the body but you can kick to the head sounds kinda backwards but that's the rules

  • no strikes to the head? and what happens when someone takes them to the ground?

    check out my vid of me sparring a black in kyokushin

  • 0.48 :-)

  • i do kyokushin karate, but its quite hard to do a strong kick to the head to do K.O. actually the kick to the knee is called kansetsu geri, and its the most common way to escape a street fight. it can beak the knee, so the person wouldnt be able to stand on it in his life.

  • If u ask me its about flexibility. If you work on your streching, especially the splitz.... kicking fast and hard to the head is pretty easy. Thats what has made alot of the great kyokushin champs so good at what they do..... but thats just me... :)

  • Hard to ko someone with a head kick? Have you ever heard of Mirko Cro Cop?

  • yeah I saw gonzaga drop cro cop with a mean headkick, that shit was harsh

  • When they get kicked in the calf's what happens? Does it give them a dead leg, breaks the bones or ligaments?? curious to know as to why you see a lot of matches won by a kick to the calf..

  • I say the best was the prolly, "American," don't know, dude @ 1:05 to 1:06.

  • The guy @ 1.05 to 1.06 is Garry O'Neill from Australia.

  • very nice.. i prefere muay thai but this is reall impressive

  • the fight starting at 0:25 was very nice to watch! good blocks and attacks and a nice knockout!

  • Super Ko's!

  • Next to Muay Thai this looks like one of the toughest styles out there. Lotta respect for people that sparr this way.

  • what name of kick 1:05  1:06 ????? please

  • In english it is called a flip kick or a rolling thunder in japanese its called a atobi ushiro mawashi geri.

  • exactly :) one of my favourites, and one which i use a lot

  • Its called : now you see it , now you don't

  • in malaysia we call ''tendang kepala itik"

  • This is some very good KO's.

  • 0:15 lol, "Wait I wasnt ready"

  • JEROME LEBANER

  • Am I wrong or is number 98 Krzysztof Wlodarczyk who is now a great light heavyweight boxer?

  • must be no face strikes in these matches, althought that would make sense considering karate's open hand face strikes to eyes, temples noses etc, still half these guys didnt have their hands protecting their faces which explains the number of kicks landing on the face.

  • It wouldn't matter if you had your hands up or not, you catch a spinning kick with that much velocity and your going to have a broken hand or a fractured arm, and most of the force is still going to transfer through.

  • mma fighters are much more durable, but these guys have better aim.

  • much more durable? are you sure?

  • Kyokushin fighter can smash head with one powerful fist kick) it's true!

  • and also some other areas with a powerful kin geri xD

  • Nice thank you.

  • Hey at .47 Is that Matsui and Fihlo? if so who ever won that fight?

  • Its Filho, but not Matsui (dont even look similar). Matsui had retired from competition by that time. Its from the 6th World tournament, back in 1995. The first world tournament after the great split of kyokushin into several competing organizations (this event open only to that organization ofcourse). Filho got in at 3rd place after Kenji Yamaki and Hajime Kazumi.

  • Is Hiza Ganmen Geri allowed in fights?

  • yes it is.OSU!

  • I must agree also with n7y7h7c ...Competition regulation is one thing ,street fighting is another.Just cause Kyokushin practicants don't smash they're heads with fists in tournaments it doesn't mean they can't...OsU!

  • Alot of bullshit in these comments.. I do agree with n7y7h7c though.

  • i like this! good to see it in action. as, i think, it should be.

  • only kicks

  • are punches allowed to the face?

  • Thats what I was thinking........

  • kicks and knees are allowed to the head, and basically any place below that.

    Punches and elbow must hit below the neck.

  • who is on the 27 sec?!

    OSU!!!

  • No, is not kick in balls guys lol

    Is kick to inside upper leg, not balls. That will making the man die lol Is not alowed in the Kyokushin to kick the balls xD

  • 1:05 RULZ!!!

  • A word of advice. Don't block with your head.

  • love to see this style in mma

  • Georges St. Pierre uses a little bit of it. I think Bas Rutten practices it also

  • this vid is so cool!

  • Thats prolly cus after yars of this their nuts are prolly numb..

  • Alot of these people are getting kicked in the nuts MORE than once. It's amazing how they don't get crippled by pain from something like that!

  • Its not the nuts, its just the inside of the leg

  • Oh. From the way I saw, it looked like the crotch. XD

  • did you de the block at 0:31 that was amazing

  • British people are funny! lol

    I was trian this when I was visit Okinawa but just a little, I was really there for practice Judo =D These people are so power! If I was punch just one time like that I will became cry lol why they dont yelling, in Judo I am freaky like monkey! lol Is scare oppoinent xD

  • "lets go, lets go, keep it going, hes got no heart" BOOM!

    i friggen love that.

  • are knee strikes allowed in kyokushin? this is for sure the art i most respect for stand up stikes.

  • It would suck to get into a brawl with a kyokyushin karate master.

  • Yeah, it would suck if the "Karate" master got owned by a random guy on the street. In real life,the other guy isn't going to just stand their and push you away... He's going to pick you up and slam your ass on the pavement. Karate does not work at all in real fights unless you know grappling as well. GSP for example.

  • do you know what you are talking about? or just making conversation?? have you ever been in a real fight? i practiced mma for 6 years, and now for about 12 years kyokushin. do you think kyukushin fighters don't know how to slam some average guys head to the floor just because its against competition regulations??? do your homework or stop posting this cr@p

  • The AVERAGE guy doesn't fight. I would put my money on an experienced street fighter over a kyokushin master in a street fight. The fight will go to the ground 90% of the time, obviously someone with any kind of fighting training would have an advantage vs someone who didn't, but, what i'm saying is a lot of this would not work at all in a real fight or MMA. GSP is the real kyokushin master in my opinion, he mixes it with other styles, that's why hes #1.

  • EVERY guy fights when he has to, in my experience. fighting sports are not for the streets. if I ever get into a serious fight, it would try hitting my opponent in the head with a brick, or stab or shoot that person. fighting in the real world has got NOTHING to do with skills and techniques of any combat sport, its all in the head. how far are you prepared to go, what sick shit can you think of. this is fighting in real life

  • @n7y7h7c hey i always wondered why we cant punch to the head. never bothered to ask till now.

  • @saipansmall The head is hard. Very hard. Really Really hard. Your hand is soft. Really soft. Really Really soft. Hand + Head = Hurt Head and Hand. Punch wrong and your hand is broken. Punch the wrong spot your hand is broken. If they duck and you punch their forehead, your hand is broken. Your chest is soft.... Hand + Chest = Hurt chest.

  • @N00l3ER7 If you trained before then you know the hand can be just as hard as the head if trained properly. Plus you don't see as many people anymore trainging there heads to take massive damage...to much risk involved apparently we train to avoid getting hit in the head.

  • This is a pretty ignorant statement obviously concluded by watching too much (or buying into) MMA. In the future, please possess some kind of knowledge of the subject you're commenting on. All this talk about what works in "real combat" or "real fights on the street" is pretty moot because it basically requires a whole 'nother skillset altogether. If you try to grapple in a streetfight, you're going to get broken much faster than someone using efficient Kyokushin techniques.

  • issssssssssshhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaa­aa!!!!!!!

  • Love to train in this, Mas Oyama really brought Karate the honor and realism the art deserved.

  • shut the fuck up gabberlurgenando and dont be racist otherwise you will get wat u deserve just like your fellow dutchmen; i dont want to say his name. Just respect yourself and keep your views to yourself

  • some of those KOs...wow, some crazy stuff.

  • wtf where is your peoples respect, this is possibly one if the most practicle and lethal matial arts. keep your arguments for some where else, for now lets just anjoy the spirit of these kyokushin fighters

    osu!

  • I'm doing boxing, but I would love to practice this style of Karate. I've heard that many Shotokan Karate schools are starting to become full contact schools.

  • thats true, i own a full contact shotokan school

  • pfff bwahah cocky fag has guts to replay via internet, go get fucked =)

  • The 2 last fighters are very well known! Great video!

    Visit Kyokushin Shrine!

  • IN real life point sparring doesnt count in a real fight image yourself fighting these guys do you really think your gonna get back up from bare knuckles to ribs?

  • but in real life you cant put yourself up against someone with your legs wide open like this - both systems have flaws, its why we train traditional and not JUST for competitions, theres no need for all this arguing both