seriously? This video you presented us with was absolutely insulting. I would go as far as to call it an abomination of logic. It is so riddled with careless flaws.
your very first controversial example: 9/11
this insulted me most of all. 9/11 happened because it was justified by religion as "right". It aggravates me so that a cretin of your par would use such a reversed and offensive example as this one to protect religion.
@redband101 I’m sorry if the video offended you – it was not meant to be an insult, only a presentation of the logical conclusions and implications of the atheistic belief.
As to 9/11, though, it’s true when you think about it - if there was no God and no judgement after death, then they would have gotten away with what they did Scott free. The only justice they would have faced is a nice long rest – which could hardly be called 'justice'.
@MinstrelBear I will step in to answer here. While it is true that we still have some mysteries to solve in physics, like quantum gravity, we still have a general idea of how gravity works. And your "god" has no place in those descriptions. We may not know all of the rules yet, but we do know that whatever the rules are, they must always hold true. If you can prove that this is not the case, using a scientifically accurate result, be my guest. I would be very interested in that.
@supermonkey103 Essentially, what I’m getting from your answer is that Science can explain everything because... Science tells you it can explain everything. And because it can explain some things without acknowledging God (or so Scientists tell us). So I ask again, how did YOU personally come to the conclusion that Science can explain everything?
@MinstrelBear Ah, you have finally presented something interesting. How can we trust something that expects you to trust itself? The same thing can be used against you, if you want. You don't get anywhere with that argument, except pulling yourself towards Agnosticism.
But in any case, I came to the conclusion from when I was a child. I would look at something and wonder, "How does that work?", so I would ask somebody about it. And they'd SHOW me how it worked. That is key to science.
@supermonkey103 “How can we trust something that expects you to trust itself?”
Through faith.
Science might be able to show you how something works, but in the end you still have to trust and put your faith in that what they are showing you is in fact the truth.
@MinstrelBear Yes, it is correct that I have faith in simple logic. That is because it is practical. Faith in faith, on the other hand, has no basis at all. It is circular, pointless, and a waste of time.
@MinstrelBear I fail to see how Christianity is at all practical. You may argue that it provides a moral standard for us to live on, but you don't need to be Christian to have morals. (Confucianism as a system of values arose independent from Christianity) So, if it is ineffective in teaching morals, and is ineffective in providing more pleasure in life, and is ineffective in teaching anything useful, then why follow it? You only have one life. Don't waste it listening to "Fire and Brimstone".
@MinstrelBear Science is a process, not a thing. Scientific knowledge is a thing. You cannot disprove the process of science, but you can disprove scientific knowledge. Throughout our argument, I have asked you countless times to disprove specific examples of scientific knowledge, to which you provided no disproof whatsoever. Again, I challenge you to provide the disproof. In case you don't know what you're dealing with, I suggest you read up upon physics, or biology. I've read much of the Bible
@supermonkey103 Sorry it’s taken a while (been very busy lately), but I have compiled a list of just some of the Scientific evidence that goes against evolution (and in many cases, points to God). I’ll send it to you via PM.
@MinstrelBear Basically, I challenge you to become literate upon scientific knowledge before you try to disprove it. Don't give me any "Devil's book" hogwash. Read up upon Newton's laws to start, then progress up into Quantum physics, and try to disprove everything presented to you in such a way that the only description is God. I'm waiting.
@MinstrelBear all of your arguments so far have been purely emotional, and have already assumed god's existence. Just to give you some perspective, imagine discovering a someone who prays to a flying spaghetti monster. Would you think he's crazy? Speaking of the flying spaghetti monster, can you disprove it exists? If you cannot disprove it, it must exist!
@supermonkey103 If that person chooses to put his faith in the flying spaghetti monster, then that is his choice. In the end it’s not what you think to be true that counts – it’s what’s actually true.
@MinstrelBear If it is the case that what matters is what's actually true more than what you believe in, then my original argument of the statistical likelihood of no god has more value to you. Thus, you should be an atheist if you believe you should believe in what's actually true. (or at least likely to be true)
@MinstrelBear If you fully support the Bible, you are supporting RAPE. (There are many sections that encourage rape) Now, if you wanted to act upon the bible, you'd be in jail by now. But you're not. Why aren't you? Because you don't believe in that part. But the bible is god's word! How you can reject parts where they are inconvenient but accept other parts in an environment that praises ABSOLUTES always puzzled me.
@MinstrelBear "Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city." (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
@supermonkey103 I suggest you read this verse in context. You’ll find that God is telling Jerusalem that this is what will happen (and not by Christian nations, either). He is not condoning it and in fact, the very next verse says “Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.”
@MinstrelBear Here's one that says you should murder me: "They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
@supermonkey103 This is from the old testament when people were under the old covenant. Sin is a very serious matter and in those days, even what some might consider a ‘small sin’ was punishable by physical death. Since Jesus took the punishment for our sin when he died on the cross, we have entered a new covenant.
@MinstrelBear So God, an everlasting being who holds to absolute moral values and is perfect in every way had to change his opinion of what to do with humans.
@MinstrelBear Wow. Your god has some pretty crappy planning. ("Hey, thousands of years from now, I'm going to teach those men who are making bad choices with their free will to be nice and kind to one another by coming out of a virgin and sacrificing myself to myself to teach them to stop being mean... Oh, and I won't tell them anything about modern medicine or science or anything like that. Nope. I'm just going to commit suicide just to mess with them.")
@MinstrelBear about slavery "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
@supermonkey103 Remember, society has changed a great deal since when this was written. ‘Slavery’ back then did not have the same negative connotations as it has today (i.e. cruel, unpaid etc.) In fact, it was a common line of work that provided shelter, food and other necessities.
@supermonkey103 The Israelites weren’t just slaves – they were under extreme bondage and cruelty because the Pharoah was afraid of their number and wanted to ensure they could not rebel. He even ordered that all male children were to be killed! It’s a bit like the difference between a respectable toy factory that ensures its employees are treated fairly and paid well, and a sweatshop.
@MinstrelBear While it is true that slavery can vary in how bad it is, that does not make it good. You may be working for a toy factory with a decent wage and fair treatment, but still are a slave, without any freedom of choice. You can never escape from that factory. You never can start your own life. All of your work is under a fat cat at the top. It still is slavery.
@supermonkey103 You do realise you’ve just described pretty much every single form of employment? (Even those who are self employed are under the ‘fat cat’ of money, customers, the system etc.) It can’t be that bad if people prefer having a career over unemployment.
@MinstrelBear I was conscious of that observation when I originally made the remark. We essentially have not changed as a race. The Feudal system is alive and well. And while it may be true that having a shitty career can be better than being unemployed, I fail to see how that makes it less shitty. But in any case, we're venturing more into the realms of politics and away from the original issue.
@MinstrelBear Human sacrifice: "At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)
@supermonkey103 This is a prophesy – check out Kings 2 23:15-20 for the fulfilment. It is not human sacrifice, but once again demonstrating just how seriously God takes sin (and once again, it’s in the old testament).
@MinstrelBear Another thing. If you are against what science has found, why are you using a COMPUTER, which required knowledge of physics and complicated chemistry and electrical knowledge to make? If you want to stay away from the 'devil' , why don't you just go back to using stone knives and bearskins? And don't try to refute only specific parts of science. That's similar to how you only accept specific parts of the Bible. It requires specific knowledge to be able to do that.
@supermonkey103 No, I’m not against all that Science has found. God created the natural laws of Science to begin with! Besides, there are plenty of Christian Scientists out there – it just depends on which Scientists you’re prepared to believe.
@MinstrelBear Uh-huh. Let me ask you this, then: Do you believe in Evolution? (from the video, it appears not) Anyways, Evolution is a simple logical consequence of nature. Provided that an animal reproduces, genetic mutations happen, and it requires a certain thing to survive, evolution is a fact. (All of these are true) Evolution CANNOT be logically refuted. If you think it can, I'd like to see you try.
@MinstrelBear All of your arguments are based on emotion only. There is no logic, no proof, no evidence. It's like trying to prove an invisible flying spaghetti monster by saying you believe in it. That's another good point: The flying spaghetti monster. I want you to try to disprove him. If you cannot, he must exist!
@MinstrelBear It seems to me that Christians are very self-centered. Only they will be saved, our world was made for them, the universe centers on them. But all of those things are unlikely. The world was made simply because of the fact of gravity, and we're not in the center of the universe, and there are billions upon billions of other planets and stars out there. And it's actually quite fascinating. But Christians try to hide these away, or at least, dumb down their importance.
@supermonkey103 It’s true that some Christians might be – but Christianity is actually God-centred. He created the universe for His glory. The universe centres on Him. Yes, it’s absolutely mind blowing just thinking about the sheer size of the universe and the magnificence of all those planets and stars and things yet to be discovered. What’s even more amazing, though, is that they’re only a small reflection of the size and magnificence of God!!
@MinstrelBear It may appear god-centered, but what I've found is that it's more self-centered than god-centered. God created us in his own image. We're at the center of the universe. Everything revolves around the earth. We're the only intelligent life out here. Only us good Christians can experience a privileged afterlife. "We" and "Us".
@supermonkey103 Actually, that’s just another testament to God’s extraordinary power and love. Even though other things He created (like galaxies etc) might seem more impressive than us; even though we occupy such a tiny place in such a massive universe; even though we constantly sin against Him; even though we have fallen short of his glory time and time again; He still loves and cares for us.
@MinstrelBear I agree. It has everything to do with love. Love of self. To me what you're saying is "We're so great, that even the creator of the universe loves us!". Think about that. Really think hard about that. In fact, really think hard about everything I've said, and stop diverting it all off with some cryptic verses or vague sayings. Actually think for a moment. Present me with a logical conclusion, or shut up.
@supermonkey103 Think of it like this: do you know the parable of the prodigal son? A son disobeys his father, demands his inheritance, squanders it on wild living, loses everything he has, hits rock bottom then returns home ashamed and guilty. Instead of turning him away, the father welcomes him back with open arms. Was this because the son was just oh so great and deserved to be welcomed back? Or because the father’s love was greater, despite the son’s arrogance and disobedience?
@MinstrelBear You summarize the story wrong. In the original, the father had another son who worked hard all day for his father, and was going to receive his inheritance later. But when the first son who took his inheritance early came back, the father used some of the inheritance from the other son to throw a party for the disobedient son. The whole thing was just STUPID. We're supposed to reward good behavior, and punish bad behavior, not punish the good and praise the bad.
@supermonkey103 The thing is, the prodigal son is like the sinner (including Christians) who repents from their sin and returns to Christ. The other brother is like the lukewarm Christian who never really understands Christ’s love and simply tries to earn their salvation by ‘being good’. Remember, the father tells him ‘everything I have is yours’ – the son had just never really opened that gift. Also, the disobedient son suffered the consequences of his choices before he came home.
@MinstrelBear Ugh... Stop with the smoke and mirrors. The whole story was messed up. You do something, you endure the consequences, and you endure ALL the consequences. Justice should be EQUAL, not "more equal to others". Have you read "Animal Farm"? "All animals were created equal, but some more equal than others.". Hrm...
@supermonkey103 “Justice should be EQUAL, not "more equal to others"”
You're right, but this parable does not actually deal with the topic of justice and judgement.
With sin, it's exactly how you say: You sin (even the tiniest lie), you endure the consequences (which is separation from God, and death – both physical and spiritual). In the end justice will be equal; everyone'll be held accountable for their sin. Not even ‘being a good person’ is good enough as God’s standard is perfection.
@MinstrelBear While it is true that it does not intend to deal with the topic of justice, it inevitably does. And I don't see how lying equals death and seperation from "god", and how murder is the same. Should there not be different levels of punishment? Also, arbitrary rules don't always hold. You can lie and do more benefit to everyone than telling the truth, for example. But apparently, your own interests are more important than others. You want to reach heaven.
@supermonkey103 That's why Jesus’ sacrifice is so important. In dying on the cross, He took our sins and our punishment on Himself. It was like a transaction – He withdrew all the wickedness and sin from our account and deposited His righteousness into it. When He rose, He conquered sin and death so that we will be made righteous before God on judgement day. We can either accept His gift of Grace and follow Him, or reject his righteousness and take back our sin (and be judged accordingly).
@MinstrelBear This is a perfect example of a tool to increase your religion's ego. Only Christians don't have to be judged, so thus, you have to be Christian. You could have murdered and been sentenced to life in jail, but then decided to become a Christian, and all of a sudden, NO CONSEQUENCES for the afterlife. Oh, hey, look, I just raped and murdered my wife... I suppose I'll just become Christian. That'll solve everything.
@MinstrelBear If life is a test, then why is it that if you write "I love my grader so much" on the test sheet, you'll get an A+? It's complete nonsense.
@supermonkey103 From your questions and comments, it’s clear that you have completely misunderstood the gospel (i.e. our relationship with God, sin, Jesus’ sacrifice, salvation etc.) Would you like me to explain it to you?
@MinstrelBear No. I have understood it. I went to church every Sunday, they taught me about the Gospel, and at first, I believed it. But I found cracks in everything I saw, until it all disintegrated. And, I would rather prefer that you would logically counter my arguments than describing the obviously plagarized New Testament to me again.
@MinstrelBear If he existed, god could have a "fatherly love" for humans. But there's a problem with that. In your version of the story, there are still issues. The father should have never given his inheritance early in the first place, and the son might have reflected traits of himself. (surely a portion of him needed to apologize for his error to his son.) Apply the same to god, and it doesn't make sense, because your god is incapable of error, and is omnipotent.
@MinstrelBear Something creating the universe or hosting the universe is possible. However, it is near impossible that it would be the Christian bible-literal god. Something as simple as the statement that the Earth is only thousands of years old he would decide to somehow cover up with readings that it is in fact billions of years old. If you take the Christian non-literal god, it still doesn't make sense. What are the chances he cares about us in the vast cosmos?
@MinstrelBear I do admit, though. Belief in god can be a great help for those who are in need. It can repair the hope of them quite quickly. But in doing so, a layer of unnecessary abstraction is created. And once this is created, some things can never change... Some things can never be learned ever again... It takes the second "Sapiens" out of "Homo Sapiens Sapiens". The person becomes just another cog in the works of society.
I have a great many problems with the concept of religion. It tries to cover up all of the great discoveries we have made, it causes a great deal of fighting, and for most of the population removes the want for understanding, because "God did it" is enough. We are Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Man who is aware he is aware. Never forget that. And religion has been trying to remove the capability of choice. When children are born, they do not believe in god. Their parents make them believe.
@supermonkey103 The reason I follow Christ is not because my parents (or ‘religion') made me believe. He led me to Himself – I searched and found Him. I can talk with Him, read His word and see the truth of it for myself in every day living. I’ve experienced His love and felt His presence and seen the power of the Holy Spirit. I have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. “Taste and see that the Lord is good” Psalm 34:8.
@MinstrelBear Alright, describe to me, then, when you first went to church, and why? Why did you go to church? Was it because your parents brought you there? And what evidence do you have that you found "Him"? Do you have proof that he talks back? Do you have proof that the word is his, and not the work of humans, who could have just been exercising their ability to lie? Again, it is statistically unlikely that God exists. Show me something that says otherwise.
@MinstrelBear If you look at the Ten Commandments, the first three are to perpetuate the idea of God. The other seven are to teach moral values. I personally understand the Bible, and all religions in general, as attempts by men to teach moral values to other men. And I can respect the Bible just for that. Teaching moral values. Kind of like those fairy tales you heard when you were a kid. A fairy tale becomes a religion when those who listen come to believe it is true.
@MinstrelBear I do not fear something that is imperfect. In fact, if the god that is told does exist, I must fight it in any way I can. But again, it is unlikely that this is the case.
@MinstrelBear all of that, however, was assuming that God will punish you if you do not believe, no matter how good a person you are. I'm not quite so certain that this would be likely to be correct. I also question your god's morals as a result of that. He seems to have may traits similar to humans... Jealousy is one of them... Also, note that if god created everything, and controls everything, why would he allow for us to do evil in the first place? God has a twisted sense of humor.
@supermonkey103 "why would he allow for us to do evil in the first place? "
Because He loves us so much He gave us free will. Without free will, we would just be mindless robots programmed to ‘love’ and follow Him. If a parent forces their child to love them and gives them absolutely no choice in the matter, can you really call that love? We were the ones who chose to turn away from God – that’s where evil comes from.
@MinstrelBear Wait, so let me get this straight. God doesn't want us to stray from him, and he won't save us if we do, but yet he gave free will to us as a gift to free ourselves from becoming mindless robots. He gave us the gift of being able to not be saved. Explain to me how it is "loving" if he will only save those who think he exists, and discard the rest? Even if you ignore that, I guess this is an important question then: What is free will?
@MinstrelBear Explain to me, also, why even if we do not commit any acts of evil, we still can be punished? It doesn't make any sense at all, from what you describe! If I am an agnostic, and I live my life perfectly fine, do I get sent to hell because I didn't believe in god? If I were born in ancient Greece, would I go to hell because I didn't know about the Christian god? If I were born as a Hindu, would I go to hell just because I didn't believe in the Christian god?
@supermonkey103 "Why even if we do not commit any acts of evil, we still can be punished?"
Have you ever told a lie? If you have,then you have sinned and "the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
@MinstrelBear There is a problem with moral absolutes like "Thou shalt not lie": sometimes, there is greater benefit done to all if you disobey. (Rarely, but it does occur) But anyways, I guess my point is: Why should God care what you think about him?
@supermonkey103 "Why should God care what you think about him?" Because He loves you and created you to have a personal relationship with Him. In fact, you are so precious to Him that He sent His only son to die in your place.
@MinstrelBear So, he created us to love him, but if we disobey he'll punish us eternally. He created his son just for him to die, so he could save us from... what? Sin? We still commit sin. We need another being to preach to in order to forgive ourselves? Couldn't he have thought of a better way, instead of staging his own death?
@supermonkey103 The thing is, it’s not enough to just believe God exists. “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder” James 2:19.Think of it this way – sin is like a deadly disease; a disease so deadly that even the tiniest pathogen will end up killing you. Jesus is the only one who has a cure for this disease. Obtaining it cost Him more than you could possibly imagine and yet He freely offers it to you – it’s up to you whether you take the cure or not.
@MinstrelBear Alright, great. I get it. I need to accept and love god in order to be saved. But you still haven't answered why people throughout history who had no way of knowing about the Christian god can be punished. You also still haven't answered how we can be sure that your god is more important/likely than all the other gods. It's not just enough to say that the Bible says that your god is the only god, because all these other religions said their way was right as well.
@supermonkey103 I must admit, your first question is one I have wondered about myself. The thing is, the Holy Spirit isn't just restricted to Christian countries - He can work in anyone's life no matter their circumstances. They may not have direct access to the scriptures, but they can still know Him.
@MinstrelBear No, that's total crap. Explain how that could happen before the scriptures were even written. Explain how you could follow God and Christ in ancient Greece. You would have had absolutely no way of knowing! So, it's completely unreasonable to punish for not believing. If your god is as great as you say, agnostics and atheists would have a place in paradise as well.
@MinstrelBear Because we have a shot at paradise anyways, Pascal's Wager becomes negated, thus eliminating all opposition. It is simply better to be an agnostic or atheist.
@supermonkey103 As to your second question – it’s by faith and by the Holy Spirit. God has never given me a reason to doubt Him and He has shown me time and time again His unfailing love and power. He says there is only one God – I believe him. He says the only way to come to Him is through Jesus – again, I believe Him.
@MinstrelBear I don't think you're getting the POINT. Why is it that people who couldn't possibly know about God are punished? Stop AVOIDING the question, and answer it!
@supermonkey103 It’s true that some just don’t have enough time to know God (like infants and small children). I don’t know what God will do in their cases – He’s the only one who can see into their hearts. As to everyone else, the real question should be: who couldn’t possibly know about God? If God created every single thing in the universe– do you seriously think He’s going to be limited to only places where there is a Bible? (I suggest you check out Paul’s conversion in Acts 9)
@MinstrelBear “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” (Romans 1:20)
Also, it’s not punishment for not believing - it’s the wages of sin.
@MinstrelBear@MinstrelBear Alright. I'm going to walk out my front door, and I'll see if god strikes me down with lightning.... Okay, I'm still alive. So there's no physical proof of god. How about some proof that he exists in our minds from his intention? It turns out that there are actually some parts of our minds that EVOLVED for SURVIVAL purposes that are used by RELIGION. It's the ultimate irony.
@MinstrelBear Alright. I'm going to walk out my front door, and I'll see if god strikes me down with lightning.... Okay, I'm still alive. So there's no physical proof of god. There's no proof of it being a fundamental part of human thought, either. You contradicted yourself by saying that all humans know god, but infants do not. Resolve your contradiction. Also, even if perfect restorative justice is performed, do you still need to repent to god?
@MinstrelBear Let me get this straight: the people cannot find God, and have never even heard of God, and couldn't even possibly have even the tiniest knowledge of God, but it's right for God to "find them", and do... what? How does God "finding them" change anything AT ALL? Show me some physical evidence that this happened, or something changed at some point. Overall, your statement is very vague, and is just... crap.
@supermonkey103 It is quite a difficult concept to grasp (I admit I didn’t fully understand it till last year). The thing is, not a single person can ever be ‘converted’ by words or actions alone. No preacher, evangelist, parent, pastor or minister has ever converted anybody; nothing I could say will ever convert you. The only one who can convert anyone is the Holy Spirit – and yes, He often uses the words and actions of Christians as well as the Bible to do so.
@MinstrelBear For instance, there are plenty of people who simply know there’s a God and so they seek Him. I’ve also met children too young to understand the Bible (from non-Christian countries) who know, love and understand God better than a lot of adults and even Bible theologians! God looks at what’s in the heart – a person doesn’t need to know everything about God or understand the Bible in order to love and know Him. All they need is the Holy Spirit.
@MinstrelBear Also, I’ve heard of people (in places where Christians are persecuted) having reoccurring dreams about an extraordinary man on a cross. So powerful were the dreams they were desperate to find out who the man was – even though they’d never heard the name ‘Jesus.' There are also atheists who only think they are reading the bible and asking questions to try and disprove God – only to find that their eyes are opened to the reality of Him (check out C.S Lewis for instance).
@MinstrelBear (citation needed) Memory is an interesting thing... I have played with my own a few times. I once fabricated a few early-childhood memories that arose from what other people told me. Years later, I believed them to be complete truths. But later, I realized that I truly never had an original account. I once was with a friend who had recently gotten insomnia. He would only sleep in 30-minute intervals, but would have very vivid dreams.
@MinstrelBear Then, one day, my friend wasn't himself. He told me that he got hit by a train in a very realistic dream. He was tired the whole day, and did not want to talk about any more details. But over the course of a few weeks, he had more dreams. His personality completely changed. He believed that he was not one, but in fact three people. He would talk about his dreams, and then I was made to fabricate a consistent storyline. I didn't want to do it, but I didn't want to harm my friend.
@MinstrelBear I had clearly made a wrong decision. Even I, at times, believed in what had been fabricated. But I knew underneath that it was wrong. I found an exit, and I took it. (Since the storyline was set in the future, using a time-travel paradox, I convinced him that if we remembered it, it wouldn't happen.) You have no idea how bad I felt about that. My friend has recovered since then, and now gets regular sleep, and doesn't believe in it. But I still remember what happened.
@MinstrelBear Whenever I look at someone who believes in Christianity, I see my friend. When I look at the Bible, I see myself, but with stronger intentions to teach moral values. That was one of the contributing factors to my desire to become atheistic in belief. I wanted to get to the truth, not what my mind, or other's minds have fabricated. And the fact is, a creator is statistically unlikely. Christianity would have to violate just about every physical law we understand.
@supermonkey103 I am sorry to hear about your friend – it would have been a horrible thing to have to go through. I agree with you that getting to the truth is better than simply going along with what others tell us is the truth.
@supermonkey103 Most of what you and I know comes from what other people have told us. The only reason we know about things that happened before we were born, is because other people have told us what happened. Everything you know about evolution comes from what others tell you (unless you have personally seen or experienced it for yourself). Everything you understand about evolution is based on the ‘facts,’ ‘evidence’ and theories other people tell you about.
@MinstrelBear I don't understand what's so hard to get about evolution. In simple terms, animals have sex to have babies. Those babies are very similar to their parents, but have random changes. The babies grow up, and if they are attractive, healthy, and live long enough, they will have sex and have more babies. Everything here is a given. And while I have not experienced evolution firsthand (because I don't live for thousands of years!), the evidence is clear and obvious.
@MinstrelBear Christianity's mind is like that of a conspiracy theorist. You always take the most complicated explanation for normally simple phenomena, hype it up a bit, gain some gullible followers, and use them as "evidence" to support your near-impossible claims.
@supermonkey103 That’s why I’m sceptical about a lot of these Scientific theories – it requires me to simply go along with the ideas of other people (who are usually biased), the ‘evidence’ I’m told exist, the meaning others have derived from this ‘evidence,’ and the theories I’m told to believe. The great thing about having a personal relationship with God is I don’t have to simply rely on what other people tell me – I can rely on what God tells me.
@MinstrelBear You fail to understand the way science works. A scientific theory is an idea that would describe the new evidence which has been collected. The implications of the theory are deduced and then tested. If any one test turns up incorrect consistently, then the original theory is incorrect. All of scientific knowledge has the unique characteristic of being falsifiable, that is, you can prove it all false. I kindly ask you to logically prove wrong what you think is wrong.
@MinstrelBear That example applies to your concerns. If the story is true, and not just another fabrication, you also don't know how they fabricated the idea of a man on a cross. Actually, it could be remarkably easy. Just see a cross, or a sign of christianity, or hear a few words about christianity, and a rough dream would have been fabricated. Think about all of the people that story travelled through to get to you. How many ways could it have been changed from the original?
@supermonkey103 Actually, these are the testimonies of people either I, or friends of mine, have spoken to. You could believe it was just a random string of strange co-incidences – just a co-incidence they have powerful and vivid dreams of a cross (even though they live in a place where Christianity is forbidden). A co-incidence they knew this extraordinary stranger was on that cross out of His amazing love for them. A co-incidence this person had a longing desire to know who the man was.
@MinstrelBear Again, let me remind you that memory is highly corruptible. Have you ever had an uncle who would tell you this boring story of how he caught a small fish, but over the years he would embellish the story until it was a whale? The story was probably originally about a man who learned of Christianity, and then set out to find out why it was forbidden in his country, but then it got embellished to support you.Also, what leads you to trust random people's stories instead of scientists?
@supermonkey103 Another co-incidence she just happened to stumble across a single Christian who wanted to share the gospel with them. Just a random co-incidence she sought God and found Him – just as Matthew 7:7 says.
Or you could believe that the Holy Spirit gave her the dreams and put that single Christian in her life to bring her closer to Him. Remember Occam's razor - the simplest is most likely to be correct...
@MinstrelBear AH-HA! Solution found. The order of events was misconstrued. Fortune tellers use the same tactic all the time. Originally, the christian shared the gospel first, then she had the dreams. But that got modified later on to be that she had the dreams, and then stumbled upon the person who shared the gospel. Very easy to mix that up in a game of Telephone, eh?
@supermonkey103 The thing is, though, a relationship with Christ is a very personal thing – it’s between that one person and God. There’s no physical evidence; no way for us to see what’s in a person’s heart and know for certain where they are with God or how they got there – only God can do that.
@supermonkey103 If you want cited sources, though, think about this: in the Old Testament, God spoke to Moses DIRECTLY. In the New Testament, God transformed Paul/Saul and changed his whole life in an instant. An angel spoke face to face with Mary. God revealed Christ's identity to Peter...
If God could speak so directly to them, surely it would be only logical He can speak to (in one form or another) and transform the lives of those who haven’t even heard of Christianity.
@MinstrelBear You know, a little while back, in 10th grade English class, I remember hearing a story... Called the Bacchae. It was written in ancient Greece about Dionysus, the god of WINE. He was born twice, once as a god, once as a man. Early paintings of Christ resembled late paintings of him. In the story, he was doubted as a god when he came to Earth, and was hated by all. His symbol was the EGG. What do you collect on Easter? In Rome, Greek myth was replaced by Christianity.
@MinstrelBear Also, Dionysus was a heavily worshipped god in open spaces similar in arrangement to your churches. It is not unreasonable to suggest that the New Testament was completely plagarized from Greek mythology. Thus, I cannot support the bible as a source of evidence. The bible is also thousands of years old. Imagine how many times it could have been rewritten.
Also, why would God decide to not heal all sick, effectively killing them, but decide to preach christianity to one individual?
@MinstrelBear It may be true that some atheists have converted back over to the christian faith, but I do believe that those atheists failed to have a complete understanding of the world, or atheism in general. C.S. Lewis described his "atheism" as being "very angry with God for not existing". When he was an "atheist", he simply was angry at god for not making things perfect. His "conversion" was when he decided to give thanks to god instead.
@supermonkey103 Sure, some who call themselves ‘atheist’ may not share the same belief system as the majority (like how some who call themselves ‘Christian’ don’t actually follow the word or command of Christ). But it would be unlikely that every single atheist who has ever decided to give their life to Christ misunderstood atheism.
@MinstrelBear But do they believe in true Christianity? (Which, according to you, is the ONLY way to reach the afterlife) You see, the concept of a "God" arises from psychological traits of the human mind. "God" is created to explain everything which we cannot yet explain. You talk to "God" using the same process as if you were pretending to talk to, say, your mother. You try talking to god. If you realize the truth, good for you. If you don't, it's hopeless.
@MinstrelBear You also still have failed to answer my question. Passing it off with "some people in the modern world converted to christianity without explanation" without citing any sources doesn't cut it.
@MinstrelBear And thus, if it is true that you are sent to hell if you do not believe in god, you can believe it is right for you to dehumanize everybody who is not a Christian. Dehumanization is one of the qualities necessary for WAR. Explain to me how it was right for Christians to burn people at the stake? Thou shalt not kill... It doesn't really seem like Christianity has been a peaceful influence historically.
@supermonkey103 “Explain to me how it was right for Christians to burn people at the stake? Thou shalt not kill... It doesn't really seem like Christianity has been a peaceful influence historically.”
It wasn't right. That’s why I follow Christ and not ‘religion.’
@MinstrelBear However, personally, I don't want to have to brainwash myself into believing in some god. I don't want to spend what amounts to a year of my life in some boring church, paying money to support (potentially) wasting the time of others. I don't want to trick my children. I don't want to trick myself. Back to the parachute situation. If I know, rationally, that the chances are infinitesimal that I will find a parachute, why look? Instead, I should make the best of what remains.
@supermonkey103 I have a question for you: why do you believe in the big bang theory? Is it because you’ve personally seen or experienced a big bang? Is it because you have personally examined and tested all the evidence for yourself and found it to be true? Or is it because that’s what scientists tell you to believe? What other people have taught you to believe? (Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, it could be that Satan is ‘tricking’ and ‘brainwashing’ you into thinking that way?)
@MinstrelBear There are very simple ways to prove the big bang, like looking at the stars and noticing their expansion, but your question about how I can trust science seems more interesting. Let's outline what science is, first. Science is a process. First, you get new data that conflicts with existing ideas. Then, you make a guess. Then you test the guess. If it is right, it's a theory. If it's wrong, it's wrong. Simple as that. Science is a process that I can trust in.
@MinstrelBear Now, about whether I can trust scientists. Well, that's the funny thing about science itself. You can't trust anyone until it has been tested. All that we know so far has been tested multiple times, and a great portion of it just follows logic. Well, naturally, your next question is going to be "Can we trust the tests?". Yes, the vast majority of the time we can trust them. We have proven and proven over and over again. It isn't likely that we are wrong.
@Minstrelbear I see you have moved on to the next part: whether we should want to believe in a god or not. What you have just posed is called Pascal's Wager. There are some problems with it, however. First is that there are many, many, potential gods foretold in history. How do you know you are choosing the right one? The chance that you will be correct is very, very low. But still, metaphorically, I could "go for the parachute" and pick one. (not necessarily Christianity)
@MinstrelBear It is proven that there are sufficiently random processes in the universe. (Quantum Mechanics) There also is the possibility that the Universe never, in fact, had a beginning. The big bang may have just been what happened after the previous universe collapsed. (The only thing that could disprove the possibility of this would be if the second law of thermodynamics is found to be not just statistical)
@MinstrelBear Another thing is that you lack imagination. Start reading up upon science, listen to Richard Feynman or Carl Sagan. Our universe is incredibly interesting even if you do not introduce an all-powerful sentient being. And we did not necessarily come into being entirely by accident. There is a principle wonderfully named the Infinite Monkey Theorem. It states that given a random process and an infinite amount of time, everything that can happen will happen.
@MinstrelBear There is one simple way to see that god is unlikely. It involves Occam's razor. (Stated simply, the simplest is most likely to be correct) Now, what is simpler: Only "Our natural laws run the universe"? Or "Our natural laws usually run the universe but an everlasting sentient being intervenes sometimes". Now, Occam's razor may only be a rule-of-thumb, but it is a rule-of-thumb that has proven itself countless times. It also seems to have a quality of beauty, if you think about it.
@MinstrelBear In all of your responses, you are assuming that there is a god. Whether there is or not is of debate. Personally, I know that god is unlikely, but not impossible. Thus, I should plan as if there were not a god. This is similar to if there were a 70% chance of rain. I know that there is some chance it will not rain, but I should plan for it raining. At present, there is no proof or disproof of god using logic alone. (Certain things could change that, though)
@supermonkey103 It’s not that I simply assume there’s a God; I personally have no doubt of His existence and love for me.
I can see what you’re getting at, but why plan as if there’s no God? If you’re on a plane that’s going down, and you think the chance there are parachutes onboard is unlikely (but not impossible) would you be content to sit back and simply wait for the plane to crash? Or would you be searching for those parachutes? (You just might be surprised at what you find...)
It just goes to show that humans do not draw morals from the bible, and that some animals are more or less programmed to have morals. Just because someone has a built in sense of right and wrong, doesn't mean these senses cannot be influenced. Hitler hated the Jews because during that time they were thought to be the cause of Germany's economic problems (and several other problems). Hitler targeted jews because he thought he was making life better for the German people, which is in fact, morals.
MinstrelBear, this is rediculos. People do or don't do things because of the consequences. A religious follower dosn't do somthing to avoid wrath of their god or to please their god. Normal people have similar. I don't steal because I could be punished. I don't kill because I would be punished.
Religion has caused all sorts of issues. The witch hunts. 9/11. Sexism and Racism. The War in Iraq. Though I must say, Jesus was a good scam artist. Tricking that many people into following him.
@MinstrelBear Who says that humans aren't the only ones with morals? You just made that up with absolutely NO evidence you ignorant creationist. Wolfs actually kick a wolf out of the pack if that particular wolf harms a pup. That sounds like morals to me.
@BlissByIgnorance My apologies, I don’t know much about wolves. But the point still remains.
Your concept of right and wrong would probably be very different from Hitler's. If morals came from evolution, whose ‘moral system’ is the right one? Hitler thought what *he* was doing was right. There are lots of people who see nothing wrong with stealing or murder. Does this make their crimes right? Or is their ‘evolved morality’ somehow wrong?
And I'm sure a wolf's 'morality' is different again.
Since I didn't see "satire" on the videos tags , it means you actually think this way ._. this is ridiculous , the fact that something might be somewhat sad doesn't make it any less true, its just like denying one of your pets died because the idea it ran away is more pleasing, the pet however sadly died , because in this world fantasies are fantasies and reality is reality.
PS: As humans we have the unique ability to give ourselves purposes, we give our life the meaning we want it to have.
i don't get it. is uploader trying to say that now, when "we have god", he will punish me for watching porn and lying? or god will punish me for flying a plane into a building?
everything i do has consequences and god has nothing to do with it...
i have sex or even masturbate ---> i feel good
i kill a man ---> i go to prison
i commit a suicide bombing --->i die
i can imagine a world without god because it is right now. and the video is not beautiful, it looks awful.
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
@psebastianmusic If man is naturally ethical, why do we have jails? Why do we need policemen? Why do we even need a law system in the first place? Surely a man’s ethical behaviour should be based on sympathy, education and social ties rather than a fear of punishment by law. Besides, to who’s standard is morality set if not to God’s? Hitler saw that what he did, set to his own ethical standard, was right!
@MinstrelBear And exactly which god do you suggest to set morality on? You use the example of "flying a plane into the World Trade Center"... that atrocity was committed in the name of one god so "set to his own ethical standard" it is right. If I choose to live my life based on the "morality" taught in the old testament then human sacrifice would be the right thing to do.
Moral values can be explained within natural darwinian circumstances. Religion has nothing to do with morality.
@psebastianmusic God created the law (I'd suggest taking a look at the Ten Commandments, for instance) - and it is set to His standard alone. In the end, everyone will be held accountable to God (even you) - whether they believe in Him or not. The thing is, though, it's not enough to just be a ‘good person’. Would you be interested to hear more?
@BlissByIgnorance If morals come from evolution, why are humans the only ones to have evolved them? If you were to walk into a den of hungry lions, they aren’t going to question the ethical implications of eating you - they value a good meal more than they value your life. If this is the case, right and wrong are simply concepts thought up by humans – merely individual opinions...
You act as though evolution is just the ability to gain the ability to act like a human. Evolution works in the way that, if a certain trait is preferred in a selected environment, then those with that trait will live longer and pass it on. It just so happens that the trait out ancestors needed were pose-able thumbs, and then the ability to walk on 2 legs, and then the ability to use tools. Lions are different in this case because they don't have the advantages that humans have
@MinstrelBear If a dying lion, was stuck with you in a den, & you were starving, you would of chose to ate it. Evolution has programmed you, & the lions, if hungry, to eat something that has a slight chance of survival. Now, to morals, Evolution did make them, for a Mother lion, & a Human mother, would nurture their newly born baby(ies). The Limbic System, is a part of the brain of mammals, such us & lions, to give us emotions & morals. This is a product of millions of years of evolution.
Err... Multiple problems. (I am agnostic) First off, you assume that a system of moral values requires the existence of a god. (No proof) Second, you assume that the universe having no way to "win" is a bad thing. There is a great quote I heard once that said "Life has no inherent purpose. Create your own". Free will is one of the greatest gifts mankind has. You imply that we need to be directed in order to function. In my mind, that is many times more pessimistic than a free world.
@supermonkey103 If there's no God, then who came up with this system of moral values? If it was based on everyone's personal morals (including criminals and psychopaths etc.), it would be a big blobby mess of conflicting and contradicting standards. So which lucky person’s standard is morality based on if not God’s? Your second point is a matter of opinion. To me, the thought of merely existing because of an accident is very saddening. If there's no point to life, what’s the point of living?
A world without religion does not mean a world without morals, rights or laws...
just a world with one less reason to start a fight
MCAMVP 7 months ago
@MCAMVP Then tell me - without God, where did these 'morals' come from? Upon which lucky person's standard is the law based on?
MinstrelBear 6 months ago
@MinstrelBear
Not really a standard, rather a behavioural pattern from which our standards developed:
Reciprocal altruism
In a(n underlying) broader sense: trial and error imbibed during evolutionary processes,
which in term means that this our rights, laws and morals are changing/evolving as well.
Also, I forgot to add in my 1st comment:
You see other animals forming sustainable groups not murdering each other despite their lack of a god figure, don't you? (
MCAMVP 6 months ago
seriously? This video you presented us with was absolutely insulting. I would go as far as to call it an abomination of logic. It is so riddled with careless flaws.
your very first controversial example: 9/11
this insulted me most of all. 9/11 happened because it was justified by religion as "right". It aggravates me so that a cretin of your par would use such a reversed and offensive example as this one to protect religion.
redband101 1 year ago
@redband101 I’m sorry if the video offended you – it was not meant to be an insult, only a presentation of the logical conclusions and implications of the atheistic belief.
As to 9/11, though, it’s true when you think about it - if there was no God and no judgement after death, then they would have gotten away with what they did Scott free. The only justice they would have faced is a nice long rest – which could hardly be called 'justice'.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@HoneyBooBabyKins "Everything that has ever happened in this universe can be explained by science." It can? How did you come to this conclusion?
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear I will step in to answer here. While it is true that we still have some mysteries to solve in physics, like quantum gravity, we still have a general idea of how gravity works. And your "god" has no place in those descriptions. We may not know all of the rules yet, but we do know that whatever the rules are, they must always hold true. If you can prove that this is not the case, using a scientifically accurate result, be my guest. I would be very interested in that.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Essentially, what I’m getting from your answer is that Science can explain everything because... Science tells you it can explain everything. And because it can explain some things without acknowledging God (or so Scientists tell us). So I ask again, how did YOU personally come to the conclusion that Science can explain everything?
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Ah, you have finally presented something interesting. How can we trust something that expects you to trust itself? The same thing can be used against you, if you want. You don't get anywhere with that argument, except pulling yourself towards Agnosticism.
But in any case, I came to the conclusion from when I was a child. I would look at something and wonder, "How does that work?", so I would ask somebody about it. And they'd SHOW me how it worked. That is key to science.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 “How can we trust something that expects you to trust itself?”
Through faith.
Science might be able to show you how something works, but in the end you still have to trust and put your faith in that what they are showing you is in fact the truth.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Yes, it is correct that I have faith in simple logic. That is because it is practical. Faith in faith, on the other hand, has no basis at all. It is circular, pointless, and a waste of time.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear I fail to see how Christianity is at all practical. You may argue that it provides a moral standard for us to live on, but you don't need to be Christian to have morals. (Confucianism as a system of values arose independent from Christianity) So, if it is ineffective in teaching morals, and is ineffective in providing more pleasure in life, and is ineffective in teaching anything useful, then why follow it? You only have one life. Don't waste it listening to "Fire and Brimstone".
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Science is a process, not a thing. Scientific knowledge is a thing. You cannot disprove the process of science, but you can disprove scientific knowledge. Throughout our argument, I have asked you countless times to disprove specific examples of scientific knowledge, to which you provided no disproof whatsoever. Again, I challenge you to provide the disproof. In case you don't know what you're dealing with, I suggest you read up upon physics, or biology. I've read much of the Bible
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Sorry it’s taken a while (been very busy lately), but I have compiled a list of just some of the Scientific evidence that goes against evolution (and in many cases, points to God). I’ll send it to you via PM.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Basically, I challenge you to become literate upon scientific knowledge before you try to disprove it. Don't give me any "Devil's book" hogwash. Read up upon Newton's laws to start, then progress up into Quantum physics, and try to disprove everything presented to you in such a way that the only description is God. I'm waiting.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@HoneyBooBabyKins So what makes you think God is ‘made up’?
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear all of your arguments so far have been purely emotional, and have already assumed god's existence. Just to give you some perspective, imagine discovering a someone who prays to a flying spaghetti monster. Would you think he's crazy? Speaking of the flying spaghetti monster, can you disprove it exists? If you cannot disprove it, it must exist!
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 If that person chooses to put his faith in the flying spaghetti monster, then that is his choice. In the end it’s not what you think to be true that counts – it’s what’s actually true.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear If it is the case that what matters is what's actually true more than what you believe in, then my original argument of the statistical likelihood of no god has more value to you. Thus, you should be an atheist if you believe you should believe in what's actually true. (or at least likely to be true)
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear If you fully support the Bible, you are supporting RAPE. (There are many sections that encourage rape) Now, if you wanted to act upon the bible, you'd be in jail by now. But you're not. Why aren't you? Because you don't believe in that part. But the bible is god's word! How you can reject parts where they are inconvenient but accept other parts in an environment that praises ABSOLUTES always puzzled me.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Would you mind giving me an example of one of these sections?
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear "Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city." (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 I suggest you read this verse in context. You’ll find that God is telling Jerusalem that this is what will happen (and not by Christian nations, either). He is not condoning it and in fact, the very next verse says “Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.”
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Alright, fine. I took one of them out of context.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Here's one that says you should murder me: "They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 This is from the old testament when people were under the old covenant. Sin is a very serious matter and in those days, even what some might consider a ‘small sin’ was punishable by physical death. Since Jesus took the punishment for our sin when he died on the cross, we have entered a new covenant.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear So God, an everlasting being who holds to absolute moral values and is perfect in every way had to change his opinion of what to do with humans.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 He didn't change His opinion - He had it planned from the beginning and carried it out when the time was right.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Wow. Your god has some pretty crappy planning. ("Hey, thousands of years from now, I'm going to teach those men who are making bad choices with their free will to be nice and kind to one another by coming out of a virgin and sacrificing myself to myself to teach them to stop being mean... Oh, and I won't tell them anything about modern medicine or science or anything like that. Nope. I'm just going to commit suicide just to mess with them.")
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear about slavery "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Remember, society has changed a great deal since when this was written. ‘Slavery’ back then did not have the same negative connotations as it has today (i.e. cruel, unpaid etc.) In fact, it was a common line of work that provided shelter, food and other necessities.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Explain how the story of Moses would make any sense, then.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 The Israelites weren’t just slaves – they were under extreme bondage and cruelty because the Pharoah was afraid of their number and wanted to ensure they could not rebel. He even ordered that all male children were to be killed! It’s a bit like the difference between a respectable toy factory that ensures its employees are treated fairly and paid well, and a sweatshop.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear While it is true that slavery can vary in how bad it is, that does not make it good. You may be working for a toy factory with a decent wage and fair treatment, but still are a slave, without any freedom of choice. You can never escape from that factory. You never can start your own life. All of your work is under a fat cat at the top. It still is slavery.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 You do realise you’ve just described pretty much every single form of employment? (Even those who are self employed are under the ‘fat cat’ of money, customers, the system etc.) It can’t be that bad if people prefer having a career over unemployment.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear I was conscious of that observation when I originally made the remark. We essentially have not changed as a race. The Feudal system is alive and well. And while it may be true that having a shitty career can be better than being unemployed, I fail to see how that makes it less shitty. But in any case, we're venturing more into the realms of politics and away from the original issue.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Human sacrifice: "At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 This is a prophesy – check out Kings 2 23:15-20 for the fulfilment. It is not human sacrifice, but once again demonstrating just how seriously God takes sin (and once again, it’s in the old testament).
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Is that enough?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Another thing. If you are against what science has found, why are you using a COMPUTER, which required knowledge of physics and complicated chemistry and electrical knowledge to make? If you want to stay away from the 'devil' , why don't you just go back to using stone knives and bearskins? And don't try to refute only specific parts of science. That's similar to how you only accept specific parts of the Bible. It requires specific knowledge to be able to do that.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 No, I’m not against all that Science has found. God created the natural laws of Science to begin with! Besides, there are plenty of Christian Scientists out there – it just depends on which Scientists you’re prepared to believe.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Uh-huh. Let me ask you this, then: Do you believe in Evolution? (from the video, it appears not) Anyways, Evolution is a simple logical consequence of nature. Provided that an animal reproduces, genetic mutations happen, and it requires a certain thing to survive, evolution is a fact. (All of these are true) Evolution CANNOT be logically refuted. If you think it can, I'd like to see you try.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear All of your arguments are based on emotion only. There is no logic, no proof, no evidence. It's like trying to prove an invisible flying spaghetti monster by saying you believe in it. That's another good point: The flying spaghetti monster. I want you to try to disprove him. If you cannot, he must exist!
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear It seems to me that Christians are very self-centered. Only they will be saved, our world was made for them, the universe centers on them. But all of those things are unlikely. The world was made simply because of the fact of gravity, and we're not in the center of the universe, and there are billions upon billions of other planets and stars out there. And it's actually quite fascinating. But Christians try to hide these away, or at least, dumb down their importance.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 It’s true that some Christians might be – but Christianity is actually God-centred. He created the universe for His glory. The universe centres on Him. Yes, it’s absolutely mind blowing just thinking about the sheer size of the universe and the magnificence of all those planets and stars and things yet to be discovered. What’s even more amazing, though, is that they’re only a small reflection of the size and magnificence of God!!
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear It may appear god-centered, but what I've found is that it's more self-centered than god-centered. God created us in his own image. We're at the center of the universe. Everything revolves around the earth. We're the only intelligent life out here. Only us good Christians can experience a privileged afterlife. "We" and "Us".
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Actually, that’s just another testament to God’s extraordinary power and love. Even though other things He created (like galaxies etc) might seem more impressive than us; even though we occupy such a tiny place in such a massive universe; even though we constantly sin against Him; even though we have fallen short of his glory time and time again; He still loves and cares for us.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear I agree. It has everything to do with love. Love of self. To me what you're saying is "We're so great, that even the creator of the universe loves us!". Think about that. Really think hard about that. In fact, really think hard about everything I've said, and stop diverting it all off with some cryptic verses or vague sayings. Actually think for a moment. Present me with a logical conclusion, or shut up.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Think of it like this: do you know the parable of the prodigal son? A son disobeys his father, demands his inheritance, squanders it on wild living, loses everything he has, hits rock bottom then returns home ashamed and guilty. Instead of turning him away, the father welcomes him back with open arms. Was this because the son was just oh so great and deserved to be welcomed back? Or because the father’s love was greater, despite the son’s arrogance and disobedience?
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear You summarize the story wrong. In the original, the father had another son who worked hard all day for his father, and was going to receive his inheritance later. But when the first son who took his inheritance early came back, the father used some of the inheritance from the other son to throw a party for the disobedient son. The whole thing was just STUPID. We're supposed to reward good behavior, and punish bad behavior, not punish the good and praise the bad.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 The thing is, the prodigal son is like the sinner (including Christians) who repents from their sin and returns to Christ. The other brother is like the lukewarm Christian who never really understands Christ’s love and simply tries to earn their salvation by ‘being good’. Remember, the father tells him ‘everything I have is yours’ – the son had just never really opened that gift. Also, the disobedient son suffered the consequences of his choices before he came home.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Ugh... Stop with the smoke and mirrors. The whole story was messed up. You do something, you endure the consequences, and you endure ALL the consequences. Justice should be EQUAL, not "more equal to others". Have you read "Animal Farm"? "All animals were created equal, but some more equal than others.". Hrm...
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 “Justice should be EQUAL, not "more equal to others"”
You're right, but this parable does not actually deal with the topic of justice and judgement.
With sin, it's exactly how you say: You sin (even the tiniest lie), you endure the consequences (which is separation from God, and death – both physical and spiritual). In the end justice will be equal; everyone'll be held accountable for their sin. Not even ‘being a good person’ is good enough as God’s standard is perfection.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear While it is true that it does not intend to deal with the topic of justice, it inevitably does. And I don't see how lying equals death and seperation from "god", and how murder is the same. Should there not be different levels of punishment? Also, arbitrary rules don't always hold. You can lie and do more benefit to everyone than telling the truth, for example. But apparently, your own interests are more important than others. You want to reach heaven.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 That's why Jesus’ sacrifice is so important. In dying on the cross, He took our sins and our punishment on Himself. It was like a transaction – He withdrew all the wickedness and sin from our account and deposited His righteousness into it. When He rose, He conquered sin and death so that we will be made righteous before God on judgement day. We can either accept His gift of Grace and follow Him, or reject his righteousness and take back our sin (and be judged accordingly).
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear This is a perfect example of a tool to increase your religion's ego. Only Christians don't have to be judged, so thus, you have to be Christian. You could have murdered and been sentenced to life in jail, but then decided to become a Christian, and all of a sudden, NO CONSEQUENCES for the afterlife. Oh, hey, look, I just raped and murdered my wife... I suppose I'll just become Christian. That'll solve everything.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear If life is a test, then why is it that if you write "I love my grader so much" on the test sheet, you'll get an A+? It's complete nonsense.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 From your questions and comments, it’s clear that you have completely misunderstood the gospel (i.e. our relationship with God, sin, Jesus’ sacrifice, salvation etc.) Would you like me to explain it to you?
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear No. I have understood it. I went to church every Sunday, they taught me about the Gospel, and at first, I believed it. But I found cracks in everything I saw, until it all disintegrated. And, I would rather prefer that you would logically counter my arguments than describing the obviously plagarized New Testament to me again.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear If he existed, god could have a "fatherly love" for humans. But there's a problem with that. In your version of the story, there are still issues. The father should have never given his inheritance early in the first place, and the son might have reflected traits of himself. (surely a portion of him needed to apologize for his error to his son.) Apply the same to god, and it doesn't make sense, because your god is incapable of error, and is omnipotent.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 The father loved his son so much he gave him free choice. God isn’t going to force people to love Him – that wouldn’t be real love.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Then why on Earth did he send his nonexistent son down? Because he forgot something earlier?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Something creating the universe or hosting the universe is possible. However, it is near impossible that it would be the Christian bible-literal god. Something as simple as the statement that the Earth is only thousands of years old he would decide to somehow cover up with readings that it is in fact billions of years old. If you take the Christian non-literal god, it still doesn't make sense. What are the chances he cares about us in the vast cosmos?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear I do admit, though. Belief in god can be a great help for those who are in need. It can repair the hope of them quite quickly. But in doing so, a layer of unnecessary abstraction is created. And once this is created, some things can never change... Some things can never be learned ever again... It takes the second "Sapiens" out of "Homo Sapiens Sapiens". The person becomes just another cog in the works of society.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
I have a great many problems with the concept of religion. It tries to cover up all of the great discoveries we have made, it causes a great deal of fighting, and for most of the population removes the want for understanding, because "God did it" is enough. We are Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Man who is aware he is aware. Never forget that. And religion has been trying to remove the capability of choice. When children are born, they do not believe in god. Their parents make them believe.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 The reason I follow Christ is not because my parents (or ‘religion') made me believe. He led me to Himself – I searched and found Him. I can talk with Him, read His word and see the truth of it for myself in every day living. I’ve experienced His love and felt His presence and seen the power of the Holy Spirit. I have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. “Taste and see that the Lord is good” Psalm 34:8.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Alright, describe to me, then, when you first went to church, and why? Why did you go to church? Was it because your parents brought you there? And what evidence do you have that you found "Him"? Do you have proof that he talks back? Do you have proof that the word is his, and not the work of humans, who could have just been exercising their ability to lie? Again, it is statistically unlikely that God exists. Show me something that says otherwise.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 I will PM you – there is not enough room here.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear If you look at the Ten Commandments, the first three are to perpetuate the idea of God. The other seven are to teach moral values. I personally understand the Bible, and all religions in general, as attempts by men to teach moral values to other men. And I can respect the Bible just for that. Teaching moral values. Kind of like those fairy tales you heard when you were a kid. A fairy tale becomes a religion when those who listen come to believe it is true.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear I do not fear something that is imperfect. In fact, if the god that is told does exist, I must fight it in any way I can. But again, it is unlikely that this is the case.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear all of that, however, was assuming that God will punish you if you do not believe, no matter how good a person you are. I'm not quite so certain that this would be likely to be correct. I also question your god's morals as a result of that. He seems to have may traits similar to humans... Jealousy is one of them... Also, note that if god created everything, and controls everything, why would he allow for us to do evil in the first place? God has a twisted sense of humor.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 "why would he allow for us to do evil in the first place? "
Because He loves us so much He gave us free will. Without free will, we would just be mindless robots programmed to ‘love’ and follow Him. If a parent forces their child to love them and gives them absolutely no choice in the matter, can you really call that love? We were the ones who chose to turn away from God – that’s where evil comes from.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Wait, so let me get this straight. God doesn't want us to stray from him, and he won't save us if we do, but yet he gave free will to us as a gift to free ourselves from becoming mindless robots. He gave us the gift of being able to not be saved. Explain to me how it is "loving" if he will only save those who think he exists, and discard the rest? Even if you ignore that, I guess this is an important question then: What is free will?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Explain to me, also, why even if we do not commit any acts of evil, we still can be punished? It doesn't make any sense at all, from what you describe! If I am an agnostic, and I live my life perfectly fine, do I get sent to hell because I didn't believe in god? If I were born in ancient Greece, would I go to hell because I didn't know about the Christian god? If I were born as a Hindu, would I go to hell just because I didn't believe in the Christian god?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 "Why even if we do not commit any acts of evil, we still can be punished?"
Have you ever told a lie? If you have,then you have sinned and "the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear There is a problem with moral absolutes like "Thou shalt not lie": sometimes, there is greater benefit done to all if you disobey. (Rarely, but it does occur) But anyways, I guess my point is: Why should God care what you think about him?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 "Why should God care what you think about him?" Because He loves you and created you to have a personal relationship with Him. In fact, you are so precious to Him that He sent His only son to die in your place.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear So, he created us to love him, but if we disobey he'll punish us eternally. He created his son just for him to die, so he could save us from... what? Sin? We still commit sin. We need another being to preach to in order to forgive ourselves? Couldn't he have thought of a better way, instead of staging his own death?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 The thing is, it’s not enough to just believe God exists. “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder” James 2:19.Think of it this way – sin is like a deadly disease; a disease so deadly that even the tiniest pathogen will end up killing you. Jesus is the only one who has a cure for this disease. Obtaining it cost Him more than you could possibly imagine and yet He freely offers it to you – it’s up to you whether you take the cure or not.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Alright, great. I get it. I need to accept and love god in order to be saved. But you still haven't answered why people throughout history who had no way of knowing about the Christian god can be punished. You also still haven't answered how we can be sure that your god is more important/likely than all the other gods. It's not just enough to say that the Bible says that your god is the only god, because all these other religions said their way was right as well.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 I must admit, your first question is one I have wondered about myself. The thing is, the Holy Spirit isn't just restricted to Christian countries - He can work in anyone's life no matter their circumstances. They may not have direct access to the scriptures, but they can still know Him.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear No, that's total crap. Explain how that could happen before the scriptures were even written. Explain how you could follow God and Christ in ancient Greece. You would have had absolutely no way of knowing! So, it's completely unreasonable to punish for not believing. If your god is as great as you say, agnostics and atheists would have a place in paradise as well.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Because we have a shot at paradise anyways, Pascal's Wager becomes negated, thus eliminating all opposition. It is simply better to be an agnostic or atheist.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 As to your second question – it’s by faith and by the Holy Spirit. God has never given me a reason to doubt Him and He has shown me time and time again His unfailing love and power. He says there is only one God – I believe him. He says the only way to come to Him is through Jesus – again, I believe Him.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear I don't think you're getting the POINT. Why is it that people who couldn't possibly know about God are punished? Stop AVOIDING the question, and answer it!
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 It’s true that some just don’t have enough time to know God (like infants and small children). I don’t know what God will do in their cases – He’s the only one who can see into their hearts. As to everyone else, the real question should be: who couldn’t possibly know about God? If God created every single thing in the universe– do you seriously think He’s going to be limited to only places where there is a Bible? (I suggest you check out Paul’s conversion in Acts 9)
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” (Romans 1:20)
Also, it’s not punishment for not believing - it’s the wages of sin.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear @MinstrelBear Alright. I'm going to walk out my front door, and I'll see if god strikes me down with lightning.... Okay, I'm still alive. So there's no physical proof of god. How about some proof that he exists in our minds from his intention? It turns out that there are actually some parts of our minds that EVOLVED for SURVIVAL purposes that are used by RELIGION. It's the ultimate irony.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Alright. I'm going to walk out my front door, and I'll see if god strikes me down with lightning.... Okay, I'm still alive. So there's no physical proof of god. There's no proof of it being a fundamental part of human thought, either. You contradicted yourself by saying that all humans know god, but infants do not. Resolve your contradiction. Also, even if perfect restorative justice is performed, do you still need to repent to god?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Finally, you have failed to answer my question: How could the ancient Greeks have found the Christian god?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 By God finding them first.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Let me get this straight: the people cannot find God, and have never even heard of God, and couldn't even possibly have even the tiniest knowledge of God, but it's right for God to "find them", and do... what? How does God "finding them" change anything AT ALL? Show me some physical evidence that this happened, or something changed at some point. Overall, your statement is very vague, and is just... crap.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 It is quite a difficult concept to grasp (I admit I didn’t fully understand it till last year). The thing is, not a single person can ever be ‘converted’ by words or actions alone. No preacher, evangelist, parent, pastor or minister has ever converted anybody; nothing I could say will ever convert you. The only one who can convert anyone is the Holy Spirit – and yes, He often uses the words and actions of Christians as well as the Bible to do so.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear For instance, there are plenty of people who simply know there’s a God and so they seek Him. I’ve also met children too young to understand the Bible (from non-Christian countries) who know, love and understand God better than a lot of adults and even Bible theologians! God looks at what’s in the heart – a person doesn’t need to know everything about God or understand the Bible in order to love and know Him. All they need is the Holy Spirit.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Also, I’ve heard of people (in places where Christians are persecuted) having reoccurring dreams about an extraordinary man on a cross. So powerful were the dreams they were desperate to find out who the man was – even though they’d never heard the name ‘Jesus.' There are also atheists who only think they are reading the bible and asking questions to try and disprove God – only to find that their eyes are opened to the reality of Him (check out C.S Lewis for instance).
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear (citation needed) Memory is an interesting thing... I have played with my own a few times. I once fabricated a few early-childhood memories that arose from what other people told me. Years later, I believed them to be complete truths. But later, I realized that I truly never had an original account. I once was with a friend who had recently gotten insomnia. He would only sleep in 30-minute intervals, but would have very vivid dreams.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Then, one day, my friend wasn't himself. He told me that he got hit by a train in a very realistic dream. He was tired the whole day, and did not want to talk about any more details. But over the course of a few weeks, he had more dreams. His personality completely changed. He believed that he was not one, but in fact three people. He would talk about his dreams, and then I was made to fabricate a consistent storyline. I didn't want to do it, but I didn't want to harm my friend.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear I had clearly made a wrong decision. Even I, at times, believed in what had been fabricated. But I knew underneath that it was wrong. I found an exit, and I took it. (Since the storyline was set in the future, using a time-travel paradox, I convinced him that if we remembered it, it wouldn't happen.) You have no idea how bad I felt about that. My friend has recovered since then, and now gets regular sleep, and doesn't believe in it. But I still remember what happened.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Whenever I look at someone who believes in Christianity, I see my friend. When I look at the Bible, I see myself, but with stronger intentions to teach moral values. That was one of the contributing factors to my desire to become atheistic in belief. I wanted to get to the truth, not what my mind, or other's minds have fabricated. And the fact is, a creator is statistically unlikely. Christianity would have to violate just about every physical law we understand.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 I am sorry to hear about your friend – it would have been a horrible thing to have to go through. I agree with you that getting to the truth is better than simply going along with what others tell us is the truth.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Most of what you and I know comes from what other people have told us. The only reason we know about things that happened before we were born, is because other people have told us what happened. Everything you know about evolution comes from what others tell you (unless you have personally seen or experienced it for yourself). Everything you understand about evolution is based on the ‘facts,’ ‘evidence’ and theories other people tell you about.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear I don't understand what's so hard to get about evolution. In simple terms, animals have sex to have babies. Those babies are very similar to their parents, but have random changes. The babies grow up, and if they are attractive, healthy, and live long enough, they will have sex and have more babies. Everything here is a given. And while I have not experienced evolution firsthand (because I don't live for thousands of years!), the evidence is clear and obvious.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Christianity's mind is like that of a conspiracy theorist. You always take the most complicated explanation for normally simple phenomena, hype it up a bit, gain some gullible followers, and use them as "evidence" to support your near-impossible claims.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 That’s why I’m sceptical about a lot of these Scientific theories – it requires me to simply go along with the ideas of other people (who are usually biased), the ‘evidence’ I’m told exist, the meaning others have derived from this ‘evidence,’ and the theories I’m told to believe. The great thing about having a personal relationship with God is I don’t have to simply rely on what other people tell me – I can rely on what God tells me.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear You fail to understand the way science works. A scientific theory is an idea that would describe the new evidence which has been collected. The implications of the theory are deduced and then tested. If any one test turns up incorrect consistently, then the original theory is incorrect. All of scientific knowledge has the unique characteristic of being falsifiable, that is, you can prove it all false. I kindly ask you to logically prove wrong what you think is wrong.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear That example applies to your concerns. If the story is true, and not just another fabrication, you also don't know how they fabricated the idea of a man on a cross. Actually, it could be remarkably easy. Just see a cross, or a sign of christianity, or hear a few words about christianity, and a rough dream would have been fabricated. Think about all of the people that story travelled through to get to you. How many ways could it have been changed from the original?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Actually, these are the testimonies of people either I, or friends of mine, have spoken to. You could believe it was just a random string of strange co-incidences – just a co-incidence they have powerful and vivid dreams of a cross (even though they live in a place where Christianity is forbidden). A co-incidence they knew this extraordinary stranger was on that cross out of His amazing love for them. A co-incidence this person had a longing desire to know who the man was.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Again, let me remind you that memory is highly corruptible. Have you ever had an uncle who would tell you this boring story of how he caught a small fish, but over the years he would embellish the story until it was a whale? The story was probably originally about a man who learned of Christianity, and then set out to find out why it was forbidden in his country, but then it got embellished to support you.Also, what leads you to trust random people's stories instead of scientists?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Another co-incidence she just happened to stumble across a single Christian who wanted to share the gospel with them. Just a random co-incidence she sought God and found Him – just as Matthew 7:7 says.
Or you could believe that the Holy Spirit gave her the dreams and put that single Christian in her life to bring her closer to Him. Remember Occam's razor - the simplest is most likely to be correct...
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear AH-HA! Solution found. The order of events was misconstrued. Fortune tellers use the same tactic all the time. Originally, the christian shared the gospel first, then she had the dreams. But that got modified later on to be that she had the dreams, and then stumbled upon the person who shared the gospel. Very easy to mix that up in a game of Telephone, eh?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 The thing is, though, a relationship with Christ is a very personal thing – it’s between that one person and God. There’s no physical evidence; no way for us to see what’s in a person’s heart and know for certain where they are with God or how they got there – only God can do that.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 If you want cited sources, though, think about this: in the Old Testament, God spoke to Moses DIRECTLY. In the New Testament, God transformed Paul/Saul and changed his whole life in an instant. An angel spoke face to face with Mary. God revealed Christ's identity to Peter...
If God could speak so directly to them, surely it would be only logical He can speak to (in one form or another) and transform the lives of those who haven’t even heard of Christianity.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear You know, a little while back, in 10th grade English class, I remember hearing a story... Called the Bacchae. It was written in ancient Greece about Dionysus, the god of WINE. He was born twice, once as a god, once as a man. Early paintings of Christ resembled late paintings of him. In the story, he was doubted as a god when he came to Earth, and was hated by all. His symbol was the EGG. What do you collect on Easter? In Rome, Greek myth was replaced by Christianity.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Also, Dionysus was a heavily worshipped god in open spaces similar in arrangement to your churches. It is not unreasonable to suggest that the New Testament was completely plagarized from Greek mythology. Thus, I cannot support the bible as a source of evidence. The bible is also thousands of years old. Imagine how many times it could have been rewritten.
Also, why would God decide to not heal all sick, effectively killing them, but decide to preach christianity to one individual?
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear It may be true that some atheists have converted back over to the christian faith, but I do believe that those atheists failed to have a complete understanding of the world, or atheism in general. C.S. Lewis described his "atheism" as being "very angry with God for not existing". When he was an "atheist", he simply was angry at god for not making things perfect. His "conversion" was when he decided to give thanks to god instead.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Sure, some who call themselves ‘atheist’ may not share the same belief system as the majority (like how some who call themselves ‘Christian’ don’t actually follow the word or command of Christ). But it would be unlikely that every single atheist who has ever decided to give their life to Christ misunderstood atheism.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Exactly. I'm not talking about the majority, I'm talking about C.S. Lewis specifically, in which case it is very likely.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 My apologies, I misinterpreted your comment.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear But do they believe in true Christianity? (Which, according to you, is the ONLY way to reach the afterlife) You see, the concept of a "God" arises from psychological traits of the human mind. "God" is created to explain everything which we cannot yet explain. You talk to "God" using the same process as if you were pretending to talk to, say, your mother. You try talking to god. If you realize the truth, good for you. If you don't, it's hopeless.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 Believing true Christianity isn’t the way to get to heaven. It is only through God’s gift of grace we are saved.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear You also still have failed to answer my question. Passing it off with "some people in the modern world converted to christianity without explanation" without citing any sources doesn't cut it.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear And thus, if it is true that you are sent to hell if you do not believe in god, you can believe it is right for you to dehumanize everybody who is not a Christian. Dehumanization is one of the qualities necessary for WAR. Explain to me how it was right for Christians to burn people at the stake? Thou shalt not kill... It doesn't really seem like Christianity has been a peaceful influence historically.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 “Explain to me how it was right for Christians to burn people at the stake? Thou shalt not kill... It doesn't really seem like Christianity has been a peaceful influence historically.”
It wasn't right. That’s why I follow Christ and not ‘religion.’
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear However, personally, I don't want to have to brainwash myself into believing in some god. I don't want to spend what amounts to a year of my life in some boring church, paying money to support (potentially) wasting the time of others. I don't want to trick my children. I don't want to trick myself. Back to the parachute situation. If I know, rationally, that the chances are infinitesimal that I will find a parachute, why look? Instead, I should make the best of what remains.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 I have a question for you: why do you believe in the big bang theory? Is it because you’ve personally seen or experienced a big bang? Is it because you have personally examined and tested all the evidence for yourself and found it to be true? Or is it because that’s what scientists tell you to believe? What other people have taught you to believe? (Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, it could be that Satan is ‘tricking’ and ‘brainwashing’ you into thinking that way?)
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear There are very simple ways to prove the big bang, like looking at the stars and noticing their expansion, but your question about how I can trust science seems more interesting. Let's outline what science is, first. Science is a process. First, you get new data that conflicts with existing ideas. Then, you make a guess. Then you test the guess. If it is right, it's a theory. If it's wrong, it's wrong. Simple as that. Science is a process that I can trust in.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Now, about whether I can trust scientists. Well, that's the funny thing about science itself. You can't trust anyone until it has been tested. All that we know so far has been tested multiple times, and a great portion of it just follows logic. Well, naturally, your next question is going to be "Can we trust the tests?". Yes, the vast majority of the time we can trust them. We have proven and proven over and over again. It isn't likely that we are wrong.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@Minstrelbear I see you have moved on to the next part: whether we should want to believe in a god or not. What you have just posed is called Pascal's Wager. There are some problems with it, however. First is that there are many, many, potential gods foretold in history. How do you know you are choosing the right one? The chance that you will be correct is very, very low. But still, metaphorically, I could "go for the parachute" and pick one. (not necessarily Christianity)
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear It is proven that there are sufficiently random processes in the universe. (Quantum Mechanics) There also is the possibility that the Universe never, in fact, had a beginning. The big bang may have just been what happened after the previous universe collapsed. (The only thing that could disprove the possibility of this would be if the second law of thermodynamics is found to be not just statistical)
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Another thing is that you lack imagination. Start reading up upon science, listen to Richard Feynman or Carl Sagan. Our universe is incredibly interesting even if you do not introduce an all-powerful sentient being. And we did not necessarily come into being entirely by accident. There is a principle wonderfully named the Infinite Monkey Theorem. It states that given a random process and an infinite amount of time, everything that can happen will happen.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear There is one simple way to see that god is unlikely. It involves Occam's razor. (Stated simply, the simplest is most likely to be correct) Now, what is simpler: Only "Our natural laws run the universe"? Or "Our natural laws usually run the universe but an everlasting sentient being intervenes sometimes". Now, Occam's razor may only be a rule-of-thumb, but it is a rule-of-thumb that has proven itself countless times. It also seems to have a quality of beauty, if you think about it.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear In all of your responses, you are assuming that there is a god. Whether there is or not is of debate. Personally, I know that god is unlikely, but not impossible. Thus, I should plan as if there were not a god. This is similar to if there were a 70% chance of rain. I know that there is some chance it will not rain, but I should plan for it raining. At present, there is no proof or disproof of god using logic alone. (Certain things could change that, though)
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 It’s not that I simply assume there’s a God; I personally have no doubt of His existence and love for me.
I can see what you’re getting at, but why plan as if there’s no God? If you’re on a plane that’s going down, and you think the chance there are parachutes onboard is unlikely (but not impossible) would you be content to sit back and simply wait for the plane to crash? Or would you be searching for those parachutes? (You just might be surprised at what you find...)
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
It just goes to show that humans do not draw morals from the bible, and that some animals are more or less programmed to have morals. Just because someone has a built in sense of right and wrong, doesn't mean these senses cannot be influenced. Hitler hated the Jews because during that time they were thought to be the cause of Germany's economic problems (and several other problems). Hitler targeted jews because he thought he was making life better for the German people, which is in fact, morals.
BlissByIgnorance 1 year ago
This video makes the same amount of sense when you replace 'No consequences' with 'You die'
bobplatypus 1 year ago
MinstrelBear, this is rediculos. People do or don't do things because of the consequences. A religious follower dosn't do somthing to avoid wrath of their god or to please their god. Normal people have similar. I don't steal because I could be punished. I don't kill because I would be punished.
Religion has caused all sorts of issues. The witch hunts. 9/11. Sexism and Racism. The War in Iraq. Though I must say, Jesus was a good scam artist. Tricking that many people into following him.
MacMallian 1 year ago
@MacMallian In the video, I'm actually talking about spiritual consequences, not necessarily physical ones.
But yes, you are right - sadly, there have been many evil things done in the name of 'religion'. That is why I follow Christ and not 'religion'.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear Who says that humans aren't the only ones with morals? You just made that up with absolutely NO evidence you ignorant creationist. Wolfs actually kick a wolf out of the pack if that particular wolf harms a pup. That sounds like morals to me.
BlissByIgnorance 1 year ago
@BlissByIgnorance My apologies, I don’t know much about wolves. But the point still remains.
Your concept of right and wrong would probably be very different from Hitler's. If morals came from evolution, whose ‘moral system’ is the right one? Hitler thought what *he* was doing was right. There are lots of people who see nothing wrong with stealing or murder. Does this make their crimes right? Or is their ‘evolved morality’ somehow wrong?
And I'm sure a wolf's 'morality' is different again.
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
Since I didn't see "satire" on the videos tags , it means you actually think this way ._. this is ridiculous , the fact that something might be somewhat sad doesn't make it any less true, its just like denying one of your pets died because the idea it ran away is more pleasing, the pet however sadly died , because in this world fantasies are fantasies and reality is reality.
PS: As humans we have the unique ability to give ourselves purposes, we give our life the meaning we want it to have.
HadashiF2 1 year ago
@HadashiF2 So, what makes you think God doesn't exist?
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
i don't get it. is uploader trying to say that now, when "we have god", he will punish me for watching porn and lying? or god will punish me for flying a plane into a building?
everything i do has consequences and god has nothing to do with it...
i have sex or even masturbate ---> i feel good
i kill a man ---> i go to prison
i commit a suicide bombing --->i die
i can imagine a world without god because it is right now. and the video is not beautiful, it looks awful.
richardhierweg 1 year ago
@richardhierweg What makes you think there is no God?
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
Einstein.
psebastianmusic 1 year ago
@psebastianmusic If man is naturally ethical, why do we have jails? Why do we need policemen? Why do we even need a law system in the first place? Surely a man’s ethical behaviour should be based on sympathy, education and social ties rather than a fear of punishment by law. Besides, to who’s standard is morality set if not to God’s? Hitler saw that what he did, set to his own ethical standard, was right!
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear And exactly which god do you suggest to set morality on? You use the example of "flying a plane into the World Trade Center"... that atrocity was committed in the name of one god so "set to his own ethical standard" it is right. If I choose to live my life based on the "morality" taught in the old testament then human sacrifice would be the right thing to do.
Moral values can be explained within natural darwinian circumstances. Religion has nothing to do with morality.
psebastianmusic 1 year ago
@psebastianmusic God created the law (I'd suggest taking a look at the Ten Commandments, for instance) - and it is set to His standard alone. In the end, everyone will be held accountable to God (even you) - whether they believe in Him or not. The thing is, though, it's not enough to just be a ‘good person’. Would you be interested to hear more?
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
do you really think this is right ?
screwyouDOTcom 1 year ago
Imagine? Thats the way it is. Morals can come from evolution.
BlissByIgnorance 1 year ago
@BlissByIgnorance If morals come from evolution, why are humans the only ones to have evolved them? If you were to walk into a den of hungry lions, they aren’t going to question the ethical implications of eating you - they value a good meal more than they value your life. If this is the case, right and wrong are simply concepts thought up by humans – merely individual opinions...
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear
You act as though evolution is just the ability to gain the ability to act like a human. Evolution works in the way that, if a certain trait is preferred in a selected environment, then those with that trait will live longer and pass it on. It just so happens that the trait out ancestors needed were pose-able thumbs, and then the ability to walk on 2 legs, and then the ability to use tools. Lions are different in this case because they don't have the advantages that humans have
halomidgetman 1 year ago
@MinstrelBear If a dying lion, was stuck with you in a den, & you were starving, you would of chose to ate it. Evolution has programmed you, & the lions, if hungry, to eat something that has a slight chance of survival. Now, to morals, Evolution did make them, for a Mother lion, & a Human mother, would nurture their newly born baby(ies). The Limbic System, is a part of the brain of mammals, such us & lions, to give us emotions & morals. This is a product of millions of years of evolution.
ErostheEpic 1 year ago
Err... Multiple problems. (I am agnostic) First off, you assume that a system of moral values requires the existence of a god. (No proof) Second, you assume that the universe having no way to "win" is a bad thing. There is a great quote I heard once that said "Life has no inherent purpose. Create your own". Free will is one of the greatest gifts mankind has. You imply that we need to be directed in order to function. In my mind, that is many times more pessimistic than a free world.
supermonkey103 1 year ago
@supermonkey103 If there's no God, then who came up with this system of moral values? If it was based on everyone's personal morals (including criminals and psychopaths etc.), it would be a big blobby mess of conflicting and contradicting standards. So which lucky person’s standard is morality based on if not God’s? Your second point is a matter of opinion. To me, the thought of merely existing because of an accident is very saddening. If there's no point to life, what’s the point of living?
MinstrelBear 1 year ago
This is BEAUTIFUL! Well done!
JaneEva 1 year ago
@JaneEva Thankyou :)
MinstrelBear 1 year ago