i live in Pittsburgh and between the two i definetly have to say Wayne Gretzky with out a doubt.nobody has ever had 200 points in a season.he has done it four times thats a mark that will be hard to match.not knocking Lemieux before he came along the penguins were a litteral joke.he saved the city of Pittsburgh from losing its beloved hockey team twice.both are definetly where they deserve to be in the hockey hall of fame
@shackaduck Messiar? Are you talking about Mark Messier? He never played for the Penguins, in fact he was quite their nemesis when he played for the Rangers. Maybe you meant Ron Francis, although I am not sure how anyone could confuse the two.
Messiar? Are you talking about Mark Messier? He never played for the Penguins, in fact he was quite their nemesis when he played for the Rangers. Maybe you meant Ron Francis, although I am not sure how anyone could confuse the two.
I agree Gretzky was the most "untouched player in the game" but you can't fault him for that. Other players respected him so much that they didn't touch him. Not even Jordan was as respected as Gretzky when they both played.
@tsiaotsiao glad you mentioned this. too often it is said that he was protected by semenko and mcsorley or he you couldn't hit him because he was elusive. other players had a tremedous amount of respect for him. he gave the league recognition and marketability, sold out everywhere he went and helped raise the salary for every player out there. murdering the guy just wasn't good for business.
How can you not hate gretzky he was the most "un-touched_ player in the game meanwhile he was the size of kariya. if he was to get hit like every other nhl player he would have never set records the way he did..he's actually lucky mario ended his career due to injuries cause he would have smashed his records apart.
@steven4rmnewyork every time gretzky was on the ice they tried to kill him he just was always one step ahead and he knew how to absorb and roll with the hits, they all tried to kill him,
@steven4rmnewyork You should go watch some old oiler games.There was always someone after wayne,hooking,slashing,holding and yes hitting or at least trying to hit him.In todays no touch hockey he would get 100 goals a year
There is no "what ifs" when it comes to Lemieux...You knew what he could do.He was the most gifted player to ever hit the ice...The Pens grabbed Mccsorley for a reason.He made sure 99 was never touched...I still see Gretz hitting the boards and the whole world stopped...Mccsorley was on another team
I go by what Gretz said when he retired..There is no argument who was more gifted...I do wish Mario had a chance to really play healthy...Would have been amazing...Next 50 in 50 goal scorer?...anyone?..anyone?..Not a chance in any lifetime
As a huge Lemieux fan it pains me that he couldnt have played as long as the other guys due to injury and cancer. If you look at the all time list he played at least 400 games less than everyone in front of him and its not like he retired early he missed years during his prime when he was still scoring 150+ points a season. If you look at his numbers he was on pace to score 1121 goals and 2801pts and those are his averages after cancer, before cancer he was way above that.
Okay, I am a huge Lemieux fan, and I would hate to have to choose between Lemieux and Gretzky. My stance has always been, we as hockey fans have always fortunate to watch the two best centers ever to play at the same time. They played different styles, and could do things the other couldn't. Let's not debate, let's just enjoy the memories these two megastars have brought us!
Although when Lemieux wanted to wear #99 when he turned pro in the QMJHL, and inverted it, it wasn't in tribute.
@TemplarX2 Listnen here Francois you seperatist butt pounder of boys the French have more gay men per capita than any other.GSP is tough but 10 bucks says he likes his fudge packed up his fart blaster like all French.
@MrLincolnWolfe You are a stupid ignorant cunt. France is probably one of the least gay country in the world. The French are pretty macho but they are tolerant of gays and fashionable. The US, Canada and Australia are the three gayest countries in the world. The French will kill if you call them gay on their face. US fighters = negros. The Quebecs is tougher than non-French Canada. This is where the real men are.
@TemplarX2 Look up the facts you silly child the France is made up almost completely of homosexual men and Kabec is no better having an astounding population of gays at over 70%.
The French fight?
Are you sniffing glue or something?
In every major conflict the world over since WW1 the French have done nothing more but run and hide a bigger bunch of cowards dont exist you fool lmao
You yap on here in public you run....homo sissy Pierre LMAO
These guys are the most overrated players in NHL history.. The only reason they were so great was because the no-touch rule applied to both of them. Nobody could play the body on them because anytime someone tried to hit them it was an immediate call. That's why you can find so many clips of them scoring without people even trying to stop them. Same thing goes for Lemieux's little gimp Crosby.
@razorslice17 You've obviously never watched Lemieux play. Watch some games of Lemieux, not just his highlights and tell me the no touch rule applied to him. You can look on youtube here and watch a game where he plays the Rangers and takes a tomahawk chop to the throat or numerous plays where he's constantly being slashed or guys hanging on his back. I'll agree with you that Gretzky was protected but that was after a few years.
@razorslice17 You're going to have to go back and actually watch film of Lemieux playing and then make that comment. Lemieux was constantly being sticked, slashed, tripped, punched, hung onto and he still did what he did, he didn't get the protection Gretzky did because of his size. Not whining or complaining about it, just saying it's a fact he was man-handled with and without the puck his entire career.
@razorslice17 Are you kidding? A no touch rule for Lemieux? That man was beaten and abused on the ice more than any player in the history of the game.
They were bankrupt. Selling G was their solution. The Penguins solution worked for them: it doesn't mean it would have worked in Edmonton . What are you suggesting the reason for G being traded is? b/c his 92 goals was not enough? Simply it was business. Recchi had 50/40 goal seasons with Phily, Murphy was an all-star regardless of Lemieux, Francis was a star in Hartford for years, Jagr was a superstar long after Lemieux left- all independant greatness. Fringe hockey fans know #99 many less #66
Gordie Howe couldn't touch Mario... Sure the fucking guy played til he was 53 or 55 whatever, but no one had the skill that Mario had; and I am talking across ALL sports, soccer, baseball, bball, ... To do what Mario did, save a team 2 times + from bankruptcy, have cancer, play half the season and win the Art Ross, any idiot could have worked on an assembly line in the 50's and 60's... Howe couldn't keep up with Drew Doughty nowadays as with HALF OF THOSE DRUNKS!!! Sorry but it's TRUE LGP!!
@88Freefall It is a very common misconception that players nowadays are that much BETTER than players from the 80s, 50s etc. They ARE much better trained and conditioned, and generally more skilled in that they spend much more time in the gym, and in training and playing. But if Gretzky played today HE TOO would be much better conditioned, trained etc. Same with Gordie Howe. Yes, if you magically dropped Ovechkin into a 1950s game he would set records, but I wonder if he could lift the sticks?
@wirelessdave1 lemieux was the best to set foot on ice....BUT ONLY BY A SLIGHT MARGIN. I love the pens and lemieux but to say that anyone was twice the player of the great one is just nuts...
gretzky and lemieux are the 2 best player the played hockey gretzky 1.92 pts per game and lemieux 1.88 ...but lemieux never played in a team like gretzky does in the 80 just imagine what emieux coud have done whit kurri coffey messier and many other from the oilers franchise he to whould have break a of of record.
@Muxej really?How many titles did Gretzky win when he left Edmonton...ZERO,NADA,ZILCH,and Lemieux didn't get any of those guys until the second half of his career,the man overcame CANCER,numerous back surgeries(he needed the trainer to help tie and untie his skates and when he retired(the first time)Paul Coffey was asked in a interview who was the best player you played with Coffey said and i quote"i've played with the best and bar none,Lemieux was the most talented!"
@tjgorman66 He absolutely attained league records while in LA, and Lemieux had an amazing supporting cast also. The greatest hockey men in the game voted G as the greatest player in history. He was voted athlete of the DECADE by the US-centric sports mag. Sport Illustrated. Nobody comes close to #99 in the NHL or in international competion. Lemieux was GREAT but history will always remember the best as the true "Great One"
@woodss3 Mario Lemieux played the first half of his career(oh by the way if #99 was SO GREAT,why did he end up playing for 4 teams??)with Rob Brown,Bob Errey and Warren Young on his line-hardly Kurri,Anderson and Messier and yet when you look at their PPG average(Gretzky-1.92,Lemieux-1.89)is virtually a push,Gretzky was the greatest to play because of insanse career stats but pure god given talent NOBODY COMES CLOSE TO #66
@tjgorman66 You seem to forget Stevens, Jagr, Francis playing with Lemieux? Many of these players were accomplised without #66. The 'white elephant' standing in the middle of the room, which has been missed, is that "insane career stats" are a reflection of the most prolific player in history. The numbers represent the talent and accomplishments in very similar time periods. None of the hockey greats Bowman, Cherry, Neil ect. have rated Lemieux above Orr let alone Gretzky.
@tjgorman66 many of the players who no longer played with G dropped in numbers. Many of the players who played with Lemieux were independantly great. Gretz was traded b/c of financial reasons Pocklington was going backrupt (Oil) McNall went backrupt (LA). Gretz did not get on with Hall (SL). Kids in my class room know who Gretzky is even they were 3 yrs old when he retired....sadly, many don't know who Lemeiux is. Only the greatest are truly remembered I guess.
@woodss3 once again your arugment merits no water,the penguins declared bankruptcy twice yet never,ever would consider trading Lemieux,tell when did Stevens,Jagr,Recchi,Francis,Murphy,Barasso win something when #66 wasn't there?NEVER,EVER,EVER,and in 1988/89,Mario led the league in goals,assists,pts,power play goals and short-handed goals while scoring 5 goals(even strength,power play,short-handed,penalty shot and empty net,all in one game?something noone has done since
@tjgorman66 Look at Messier, Kurri stats when Oilers arrived at NHL. Their stats were not really great. Look at their stats after Gretzky left Edmonton. Also poor.
4 teams? Because every team wants the greatest player in its squad. In football, Ronaldo also played for many teams.
@tjgorman66 He won much less than in Edmonton, but c'mon, Kings were a total rubbish before he arrived. He didn't win Stanley with them, but he made something much bigger for the NHL - great popularity and raise of total team count.
And... who cares about cancer and so on? Btw, Gretzky also had serious back injury in LA.
He's the greatest by fact, not by some potential like "if I were a superman, I would be the greatest".
@Muxej did you actually write"who cares about cancer?"Lemieux received radiation for chemotherapy and later that day scored a goal and an assist in Philly and they gave him a standing ovation,look it's clear your nose is buried in #99's ass,his accomplishments are off the chart,but ask yourself this,it's not what they did,it's what they overcame."he's the greatest by opinion"loser,some would say Bobby Orr is the greatest as well,tell me where that"the greatest"is engraved in stone"
@tjgorman66 1. The only loser here is you. 2. Probably, it's your nose in someones ass. 3. My point is that player can become great not because he overcame some disease, but by fact. No one argues, that Lemieux was great and maybe the most talented, but in sports nobody will make an excuse because of some illness or injury. If a player is the greatest, he' so by facts, not potential.
In the end, it simply bothers me that Lemieux highlight videos are filled with amazing plays, but Gretzky highlight videos are filled with boring record breaking plays and empty nets.
I'm not saying Gretzky wasn't great, but let's at least see some examples of it...
I understand what you mean. The fact is Lemieux didn't break records so his highlights are visually appealing plays, that's logic. Gretzky has a lot of nice goals but what defines his career are records and milestones, and these goals are not necessarily pretty, for example 500th and 50-in-39 are empty netters.
But the most amazing aspect of Gretzky is the numbers he got, imagine a player winning the scoring race by 70 pts, 6 years in a row... A highlight video can't show that.
Now that I think about it, go watch 'Gretzky baseball goal' to see an amazing play by the Great One, it beats any Lemieux goals in my book, spectacular...
@hockeyplayer168 yes mario was smooth, slick, turned guys inside out and was phenominal to watch, but gretzky made it look easy. watch wanyne's highlits and goals he doesn't overpower you, suck you right in or look flashy while doing so, he just gets it done.
Apparently SOME Lemieux fans hate Gretzky and SOME Gretzky fans hate Lemieux, which is stupid cus Gretzky and Lemieux themselves are the best of friends, Lemieux wore 66 as a tribute to Wayne's 99, calls him the greatest player ever and credits him with turning him from a superstar to a megastar, Gretzky once said Lemieux could have broken any of his records. Gretzky has 61 records so he was greater, but had Lemieux been heathy, that number would be a lot smaller. I was a huge fan of both.
@gymguy25 I also consider myself so lucky to had the chance to grow up with those two legend! I'm 34 now, and I was right in it when Lemieux got to the NHL. I'm from Montreal, just like Mario, but I remember having a slight preference for the Great One. I guess because he was there first, IDK...but man, what a show they gave me all my youth!
Comparing Lemieux to Gretzky is like comparing Van Gogh to Rembrandt. Two epic artists on a plane of their own. And you can't look away when they're painting. They are the two best of all-time, and for as good as Crosby and Ovechkin are, I don't see them matching these two. At least not yet.
But an even bigger stunner! In the 92-93 season, Lemieux is diagnosed with cancer and enters treatment. He misses 2 full months, and despite playing only 60 games and re-enterring play behind 12 points in the scoring race to Pat LaFontaine with 1 month to go, he finishes the season with a 2.67 PPG average, scoring 160 points,12 points ahead of LaFontaine. Remarkably, he scores a goal and assist in his first game back, despite having had his final cancer treatment that afternoon. Stunning!
Five goals in a game has been done 59 times by 43 players, nothing to be excited about.
And don't give me that 5 ways crap, it's just a coincidence, and considering that 3 of these 5 goals had been scored on real easy situations (5on3, penalty shot, empty net), that is a real joke. Give me 5 goals scored on even strength and I'll be impressed.
That's a great accomplishment, but not greater than Gretzky's. In 83-84, Gretzky had already won the scoring race after 41 games, he scored his 50th goal the next game, which is absolutely stunning, but nobody remembers that because he did it in 39 games two years earlier.
@Irato99 What about this magic? On a radio program, Pittsburgh sports host Mark Madden pledges to donate $6600 dollars to Mario's cancer charity for children if Mario can score a goal direclty from a puck drop on a faceoff. That same night, Mario does it against the Sabres. Scoring at will. Outrageous!
Nice. It's funny you say 'scoring at will' since it was his only goal of the game and it came after 53 min of play, is that scoring at will?
But how can it be more magical when the world witnessed the Great One scoring 5 goals against B. Clarke and the Flyers on December 31st '81. That dramatic 5th goal in an empty net broke the 50 in 50 record by an astonishing 11 games.
And what about the playoff shorthanded overtime winner against Calgary in the Battle of Alberta, epic.
Gretzky's supporting cast (for much of his career, including his most productive years): Messier, Coffey, Kurri, Anderson, Tikkanen, Mactavish, Robitaille, Sandstrom, Granato, Blake. Lemieux's supporting cast for the first half of his career: Young, Shedden, Rob Brown, Bodger, Mantha, Quinn, Simpson, Zalapaski. End of argument.
Wow, you are so selective, why do you compare the full career of Gretzky against only half of Mario's? I mean Gretzky only played with Robitaille until his 10th season, at this time Lemieux had played with Jagr, Francis, Recchi, Trottier, Mullen, Coffey, Murphy.
You also deliberately forget two 50 goal scorers who played with Mario in the beginning.
And please, MacTavish? Tikkanen? He only played 2 and a half year with 99 in Edmonton, in which 99 was injured half a season.
@Irato99 OK, I was a little selective....but Mario (1st edition) only played parts of 13 seasons. So for him to have his first 5 seasons with that unsavory cast of characters versus Gretzky ,who spent the majority of his entire career surrounded by Hall of Famers, I feel is a valid argument. but how do you compare two amazing players like this anyway? It's like trying to say who is better, Crosby or that Russian guy...what's his name? You know, the one who never wins anything?
I think you're over-estimating the impact of other players in the team, if you compare them it gives a God-like status to Gretzky.
An example, in 81-82, Glenn Anderson, a HoFamer, has his best season ever with 105 pts. He is that year the 2nd best Oiler, behind Gretzky, obviously, who has 107 more pts than him... How can you explain that Gretzky doubles the best production of a HoFamer, it's insane, even if he was surrounded by great players, he dominated them outrageously.
@Irato99 Yeah, but to me, a more impressive feat than doubling the production of an already-established HOFer like Anderson is when Lemieux takes a total and complete scrub, a career minor leaguer and hands-of-stone guy like Warren Young and gives him 40 goals, or gives another scrub like Rob Brown 49 goals and 115 points. Anderson was already a great player....but these are guys who were nothing before Lemieux and nothing forever afterward.
@Irato99 To be clearer, by "already-established", I meant that Anderson was already a great player in his own right and while Rob Brown was a great minor-leaguer, his career in the NHL was not much to speak of when he wasn't playing with Mario. And Bernie Nicholls? Come on, man...Nicholls was a perennial 30-40 goal scorer for 5 seasons before Gretzky arrived in LA and MacDonald also had 3 consecutive 30 plus goal seasons before his 46 with Gretzky.
Just find me a season where Mario doubled the production of the best season of a Hall of Famer he played with, because Gretzky did everything Mario did, even better and faster.
@Irato99 What of these feats, though? 1989-1990 season. Mark Recchi, 1st ballot HOFer by even the most stringent standards, in 74 games had 30 goals and 37 assists for 67 points. Lemieux that year had 45 goals and 78 assists for a total of 123 points IN ONLY 59 GAMES! Or, perhaps this stunner: 1991-1992 season. Ron Francis, one of the game's greatest, in 70 games had 21 goals and 33 assists for 54 points. Lemieux that year had 44 goals and 87 assists for 131 points IN ONLY 64 GAMES! Grapefruit?
Want a real stunner, in 83-84, Gretzky had the longest pts streak in history scoring in 51 consecutive gms from the beginning of the season, he had an out-of-this-world 61 g and 92 a for 153 pts. When the streak stopped, he missed 2 weeks because he was playing injured. If he didn't come back he still would have won the scoring race by a fair margin, he would also lead the league in goals and assists. But he came back, won the scoring race by 79 and the goals lead by 31.
Because his sheer intimidation factor. He always made huge hits and frequent hits. He may not have scored the most goals, but taking hit after hit wears on players. Besides, you wouldn't need him to score a lot of goals with the rest of the line up
To my view, the best playmakers are the best hockey players. Assists often mean much more than goals. As a long time coach and player, I know that is true. I'd take a good assist man over a shooter any day. That said, the best assist men of all time were (assists per game, career stat):
offensive stats are one of many attributes to being a great hockey player, Wayne, Mario and Orr all possessed lethal offensive talent, Defensively Wayne and Mario are both write offs, and Orr was tough he could probably kick both there asses at the same time. Within 8 healthy seasons he won 2 cups a scoring title,MVP, 8 Norris trophies a Canada cup and MVP on a bad knee and revolutionized the game more than any other player in history
Longevity is also an important attribute when defining a great hockey player, an athlete must be able to perform everyday over a long period of time. In that regard, both Orr and Lemieux fail, none of them is in the top 250 of games played, while Gretz is 15th with 1457 games, add 208 in the playoffs and 57 representing his country in international play. He had 8 seasons out of 20 where he didn't miss a game, and only twice he missed more than 10. Another reason 99 is the greatest.
Come on, hockey is a physical game, especially when you're a target everyday. Gretzky fore-checked every time, but he rarely used body-check because he was brilliant enough to know that, with his size, it wouldn't help himself.
@Irato99 Don't get me wrong I admire Gretzky Ive seen him play live and his passing and anticipation of the game are unparalleled The greatest offensive talent the game has ever seen. As for being the greatest player of all time, I disagree. Bobby Orr was much that Gretzky was, but also a whole lot more. Gretzky was very seldom targeted for obvious reasons,Semenko Mcsorley etc. Orr stood on his own and dished it out, he blocked shots,took beatings,cheap shots, all the things Gretzky never did
I admire Orr but I don't see why taking beatings and cheap shots makes you a greater player, Gretzky avoided that by being wiser than everybody else. And don't bring the Semenko/McSorley myth, every team had an enforcer. Denis Potvin once said he wanted to hit him so bad, but he just couldn't catch him, that's the real reason.
And finally, whatever are the reasons, a player who can't skate anymore at 30 cannot seriously be called the greatest of all time.
@Irato99 Very good points. No one could hit Gretzky because he was always 3 steps ahead. He saw everything and could anticipate so much. Just an amazing brain really, he probably would have been great at anything.
3) mario tore up the league even when he came out of retirement. look at the stats of the whole Oilers team in the 80s... atleast 5 players on the team had outstanding statistics that are unheard of today. (meaning the league has changed drastically)
@Irato99@Irato99 my point was, compared to statistics you see today, those stats are good. if anyone even breaks 100 in todays league, thats considered very good. meaning 1. that either the league changed, or 2. that everyone got worse and sucks.. they were in their primes during different eras, therefore you can't rely on stats alone to determine who was better
I understand the league has changed, but Gretzky's teammates stats are not outstanding in that time. The four years I mentioned, Gretzky finished 1st in scoring, but MacDonald was 10th, Kurri wasn't even in the top 20, Anderson was 11th and Messier was 7th.
But, whatever the era, when a player gets 100 more pts than his best teammate, honestly.
And even in the late 90s at the end of his career and far from his prime, Gretzky was great, he finished 4th at 36 and 3rd at 37.
@Irato99 1) mario's stats didnt start getting worse till he came back from retirement. enough said there... gretzky started slowing down almost right after he went to the kings
2) mario wasnt in his prime yet till the early 90's, which is when the league started changing.. gretzky was in his prime throughout the 80's
You mean it took at least 6 years for Lemieux to get to his prime while Gretzky was in his prime during a whole decade, now I understand why Gretzky is the best.
Did you realize that Mario's stats progressively got worse too, maybe you don't realize that it's tougher with age and most players have to retire before 40. And why did it take 3 years for Mario to get a 50 goals season, it was in the 80s against really bad goalies. Gretzky got to 92 goals on his third season...
That's not really true. When Mario came back from Hodgkin cancer, he scored at the highest rate of his career, winning the scoring title in the process, it didn't affect him, it only made him miss 24 games.
@Irato99 19 years? he didnt even play 19 years, he played 17 in his whole career. and he announced that he had the cancer in 1993. and he had back surgery in 1990. and a broken wrist the following year. i could keep going. how many injuries did gretzky have?
@Irato99 1) mario's stats didnt start getting worse till he came back from retirement. enough said there... gretzky started slowing down almost right after he went to the kings
2) mario wasnt in his prime yet till the early 90's, which is when the league started changing.. gretzky was in his prime throughout the 80's
@Irato99 3) mario tore up the league even when he came out of retirement. look at the stats of the whole Oilers team in the 80s... atleast 5 players on the team had outstanding statistics that are unheard of today. (meaning the league has changed drastically)
Just for the Record as a Manitoban I'm against the NHL coming back here because our wages are the lowest in the land and makes it impossible to afford to bring your whole family to a game
We aren`t talking about who play more games, and scored more. If u think in that way, Messier is better than Lemieux too , and if appear a guy that play 2000 - 3000 games, and score 1000 goals, will be better than Gretzky for u? Not for me. Lemieux did the best goal score % of all times, thats what matter for me.
@Irato99 Here comes Irato and ur nonsenses... i compare the career, not 1 or 10 games. A career = around 20 years. Around 20 years i think is enough to see who`s better. Lets see if the "2 goals in 1 game" guy, keeps the % in the whole carrer.
Well, Mario played the equivalent of 11 years, so that confirms what I already thought, Mario didn't have a career so you can't compare his stats with a player who played around 18 seasons.
@Irato99 He dont have a "11 years" career. U just dont have argument, just take some of my words, and say a shit between it. He played enough to show his potential. The only guy that i think had the same potential to score like lemieux is Bossy. But he did in "easy mode". And Lemieux have so much more talent. Anyway, i like more Jagr than Lemieux, but i know that he isn`t the best.
They're both remarkable players, but at the end of the day I have to give the edge to Gretzky. Longevity is a factor in any contact sport. I think what makes Gretzky a better player than Lemieux is simply that he lasted longer. Don't get me wrong, Lemieux is very talented and tough. But in the end, his body just wouldn't allow him to surpass Gretzky in his greatness. That's just a fact. Every thing else is all IFs and speculations.
Just to complement. Whos contradicting is u. U Say "You judge a player for was he does on the ice", "doenst matter if Lemieux was injured,, and with Cancer" . And u said that Gretzky didnt scored a lot because was old. U said the health doenst matter, just for Gretzky. Doenst matter if Lemieux got old too, the rules of health is just for Gretzky. U are just a retard that never shut up, always want back to say the last words.
i think Gretzky isn`t the best. CAUSE if u see the technique of the goalies in Gretzky time...my god, they sucks!!! Today is so much more hard to score. So, Lemieux is better. Gretzky is just a good player
I'm pretty sure 1995-96 and 1996-97 were the first years of "goalie domination" where there was a good goalie who had a GAA with less than 2.5 on majority of the teams in the league and the scores of games were getting low with a lot of clutching in grabbing goalies like Hasek, Brodeur, Roy, and Joseph weren't at the height of their ability until Lemieux's era. Lemieux had 69 goals and 161 point in 70 games in 95-96 destroying everyone else and won the scoring title with a bad back
Lemieux missed 20 games because of CANCER and came back to win the scoring title in 1992-93 and won the scoring title in 1996 and 1997 retired then came back in 2001 and got 76 points only playing half the season. Even Bobby Orr said it himself Lemieux was the most talented player he'd ever seen. Gretzky was not a physical player Lemieux was and he was also a better skater as well. To say that Gretzky is better than Lemieux at everything is underrating Mario Lemieux by quite a margin
It's true that Mario was more talented and had a great physical advantage over Gretzky, that's why it's obvious that Gretzky is the best, he did more with less.
Who cares if Mario won the scoring race missing 24 games in 1992-93, Gretzky won scoring races at the half of the season in his prime.
When you say Mario destroyed everyone else in 95-96, you should maybe consider that he won the scoring race with only a 12 pts lead and all his line was in the top 4.
Maybe you should consider Gretzky had 6 or 7 HOF players on his team for most of his record breaking career compared to Lemieux where only about 4 of the guys he ever played with are going to end up in the hall and 1 played on his line the other is a defenseman, Larry Murphy, who played alongside him for 3 seasons.
I'd like to see you live through cancer never mind coming back after chemotherapy and winning the scoring title. Who cares? That's the legend of Mario Lemieux
I think its clear to me that you don't respect Mario Lemieux and what he has accomplish you look at a stat sheet and think it tells you everything HELL NO your saying Lemieux shouldn't even be in the discussion for greatest hockey player ever and that to me is very disrespectful for all that Mario Lemieux has done its an insult that you think this way because he was a far better player than you give him credit for and its a damn shame that you don't see his greatness.
I don't disrespect Mario, I just say that Gretzky is way better, that's all. But why should I respect a player who refused to wear the Penguins sweater at the draft ceremony.
Lemieux has been put through a lot of crap in his career and you shun him for that. "Who cares if Mario won the scoring race missing 24 games in 1992-93" anyone who knows anything about life and hockey knows that isn't all that happened completely ignoring he had cancer and completely ignoring the fact he had missed those many games because of chemotherapy its a joke to humanity that you think the way you do. 95-96 96-97 the guy couldn't even tie up his own skates his back was so bad.
@Irato99 Just see the results in 89 -90 + seasons ( when the goalies started to be decent ) goals per game. Gretzky have 500 gameplay more than Lemieux (its more than half of Lemieux gp) and have just around 200 goals more. Lemieux scored 690 in 917 games. So if u see the goals per game...
Gretzky was the fastest to score 400, 500, 600, 700 and 800 goals. He scored his 700th on game no.886, 31 games less than Mario to get 690 goals, so I don't think there's an argument here. You just don't seem to realize that players slow down at the end of their career, it happened to both players.
@Irato99 The fact is, he scored more in the "goalies suck" time, AND doesnt matter if he scored more first, he scored in a easy time. Mario got old too, so the players slow down doenst matter. And Mario got 5 seasons more playing against decent goalies, and did better goals per game % than Gretzky. Gretzky is a player like Ovechkin and Crosby. Just got a easy season time.
@Irato99 just look the video that Greztky did the 50 score, WTF IS THAT GOALIE? what kind of defence he do? stand up defence? any hard slapshot score on it ... Lemieux scored 85 GOALS in the 1989 season, in 74 games. Gretzky have 547 gp more than Lemieux and scored just 200 goals more. Gretzky played 6 seasons in the easy era, when Lemieux started. 6 SEASONS 465 games, Lemieux played more with normal goalies, and did better. ACCEPT IT
First it's 76 games, not 74. Then you think Lemieux played only against "normal goalies" (that statement is so ridicule, come on), watch Lemieux 5 goals 5 different ways and tell me Terreri and Sauvé were better goalies than Pete Peeters (in case you don't know, the goalie who gave up goals 46-49 in the game Gretz got 50 in 39, and a Vezina winner).
@Irato99 U just keep saying shits. U dont have argument, always say a nonsense shit to try to save Gretzky. I just gonna say that, with easy goalies or not, Mario did a score % of 0,76 goals per game and Gretzky 0,60. Im not saying Gretzky isnt good. He played good, but Mario did better.
It's funny you say I don't have arguments but you can't even answer my questions. It's funny too you come up with probably the only statistic favoring Mario over Gretzky, what about the points, assists, records, cups, scoring titles, MVPs, etc... And still, at the same amount of games played, Gretzky avg of goals per game is always higher.
That is stupid its not a fact its opinion Gretzky isn't way better than Lemieux hell you have a lot of arguing to do if you say he's better at all. This shows to me that you know very little about hockey all you know is a stat sheet and you don't even think Lemieux was a better goal scorer than Gretzky when a guy points out to you that Lemieux's goal average is far better than Gretzky's like that's not even funny you come out here and say a lot of crap you know very little about hockey
I don't mind arguing at all, I know I'm right. But if you tell me Mario's better because he was injured a lot and he had cancer, it's nonsense. You judge a player for was he does on the ice, healthy or not, and Gretzky did more than Lemieux. I don't just look at the stats, but when they are miles away from everybody else...
And, by the way, I was playing hockey before you were born, I saw Gretzky with the Oilers and Mario with Laval so I know what I'm talking about.
@Irato99 "You judge a player for was he does on the ice". Hes Human. Offcourse cancer and injuries influence, it decrease the emotional. And with all it, he did better, imagine now with full health...He was able to do 1000 goals easy, and much more. U are just a Gretzky fan that never gonna reconize it, always will back to say shits.
You say he was able to score 1000 goals easy, but he did NOT, that's the point I'm trying to say. If you judge a player like that, it's you that say shit. Gretzky was better because he accomplished more, was more valuable to his team, reached milestones no other reached, was healthier and ready to play and give 100%.
i live in Pittsburgh and between the two i definetly have to say Wayne Gretzky with out a doubt.nobody has ever had 200 points in a season.he has done it four times thats a mark that will be hard to match.not knocking Lemieux before he came along the penguins were a litteral joke.he saved the city of Pittsburgh from losing its beloved hockey team twice.both are definetly where they deserve to be in the hockey hall of fame
KSK466 1 month ago
All the penguins fans say Lemieux is the best, and all the fans of other teams say Gretzky is the best.
Sithlord703 3 months ago
I love the mario lemieux song
theDUKE8PUKE 6 months ago
49 doesnt know what hockey actualy is.
crospwner 6 months ago 2
the ken griffey of hockey...... only injuries could hold him back
Whiteboye667 7 months ago
Rofl at the song.
Elmaln 9 months ago
Recchi, Messiar, Crosby, Malkin, Jagr,Stevens, and super mario
Man the Pens have had some great players in the last 25 years
shackaduck 9 months ago
@shackaduck Messiar? Are you talking about Mark Messier? He never played for the Penguins, in fact he was quite their nemesis when he played for the Rangers. Maybe you meant Ron Francis, although I am not sure how anyone could confuse the two.
slimebot 7 months ago
@shackaduck
Messiar? Are you talking about Mark Messier? He never played for the Penguins, in fact he was quite their nemesis when he played for the Rangers. Maybe you meant Ron Francis, although I am not sure how anyone could confuse the two.
slimebot 7 months ago
Very true! He had no Semenkos or Messiers to protect him !
kodiak1966 10 months ago
both were GREAT players...but i think lemieux was the spectacular.
jnic77 10 months ago
I agree Gretzky was the most "untouched player in the game" but you can't fault him for that. Other players respected him so much that they didn't touch him. Not even Jordan was as respected as Gretzky when they both played.
tsiaotsiao 10 months ago
@tsiaotsiao glad you mentioned this. too often it is said that he was protected by semenko and mcsorley or he you couldn't hit him because he was elusive. other players had a tremedous amount of respect for him. he gave the league recognition and marketability, sold out everywhere he went and helped raise the salary for every player out there. murdering the guy just wasn't good for business.
znogypogy 9 months ago
there both great but if Lemieux would have played longer he might have broken gretskys records
fuster07 11 months ago
Mario is the best player ever.
theone456 1 year ago
How can you not hate gretzky he was the most "un-touched_ player in the game meanwhile he was the size of kariya. if he was to get hit like every other nhl player he would have never set records the way he did..he's actually lucky mario ended his career due to injuries cause he would have smashed his records apart.
steven4rmnewyork 1 year ago
@steven4rmnewyork every time gretzky was on the ice they tried to kill him he just was always one step ahead and he knew how to absorb and roll with the hits, they all tried to kill him,
TheLeafsFan19 1 year ago
@steven4rmnewyork You should go watch some old oiler games.There was always someone after wayne,hooking,slashing,holding and yes hitting or at least trying to hit him.In todays no touch hockey he would get 100 goals a year
MrRob7004 1 year ago
This video wasnt quite shitty enough resolution. i could still make out the faint outlines of players. :(
amadisdemitrius 1 year ago
WAYNE GRETZKY>>>>mario lemieux. mario was a whining, cocksucking frenchman who shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Wayne Gretzky.
maltz997 1 year ago
@maltz997
fuck off caker.
theone456 1 year ago
@maltz997 who's whining now?
Gravel0909 10 months ago
Not two of the greatest. THE two greatest.
freakincrod 1 year ago
There is no "what ifs" when it comes to Lemieux...You knew what he could do.He was the most gifted player to ever hit the ice...The Pens grabbed Mccsorley for a reason.He made sure 99 was never touched...I still see Gretz hitting the boards and the whole world stopped...Mccsorley was on another team
Tod661 1 year ago
I go by what Gretz said when he retired..There is no argument who was more gifted...I do wish Mario had a chance to really play healthy...Would have been amazing...Next 50 in 50 goal scorer?...anyone?..anyone?..Not a chance in any lifetime
Tod661 1 year ago
Put it this way Gretzkys prime was scoring 200+points. Lemieux played at the pace while fighting cancer... that is all that needs to be said.
Sinco1967 1 year ago
All that being said, the injuries have to be factored in and you're just left with "what-ifs", either way two of the greatest.
blrohm 1 year ago
As a huge Lemieux fan it pains me that he couldnt have played as long as the other guys due to injury and cancer. If you look at the all time list he played at least 400 games less than everyone in front of him and its not like he retired early he missed years during his prime when he was still scoring 150+ points a season. If you look at his numbers he was on pace to score 1121 goals and 2801pts and those are his averages after cancer, before cancer he was way above that.
blrohm 1 year ago
Okay, I am a huge Lemieux fan, and I would hate to have to choose between Lemieux and Gretzky. My stance has always been, we as hockey fans have always fortunate to watch the two best centers ever to play at the same time. They played different styles, and could do things the other couldn't. Let's not debate, let's just enjoy the memories these two megastars have brought us!
Although when Lemieux wanted to wear #99 when he turned pro in the QMJHL, and inverted it, it wasn't in tribute.
jkillam66 1 year ago
Mario was a great player but unlike Gretz he was a French Cocksucker
MrLincolnWolfe 1 year ago
@MrLincolnWolfe you're obviously a moron.
blrohm 1 year ago
@MrLincolnWolfe French is always the superior Canadian like GSP.
TemplarX2 1 year ago
@TemplarX2 Listnen here Francois you seperatist butt pounder of boys the French have more gay men per capita than any other.GSP is tough but 10 bucks says he likes his fudge packed up his fart blaster like all French.
MrLincolnWolfe 1 year ago
@MrLincolnWolfe You are a stupid ignorant cunt. France is probably one of the least gay country in the world. The French are pretty macho but they are tolerant of gays and fashionable. The US, Canada and Australia are the three gayest countries in the world. The French will kill if you call them gay on their face. US fighters = negros. The Quebecs is tougher than non-French Canada. This is where the real men are.
TemplarX2 1 year ago
@TemplarX2 Look up the facts you silly child the France is made up almost completely of homosexual men and Kabec is no better having an astounding population of gays at over 70%.
The French fight?
Are you sniffing glue or something?
In every major conflict the world over since WW1 the French have done nothing more but run and hide a bigger bunch of cowards dont exist you fool lmao
You yap on here in public you run....homo sissy Pierre LMAO
MrLincolnWolfe 1 year ago
@MrLincolnWolfe Kabec? What is Kabec? If you do a little google search, you'll quickly find out what the faggiest nation in the world: USA.
TemplarX2 1 year ago
@TemplarX2 Kabec is a provence in Canada its mostly made up of sissy French queers and its borders Ontario google that you limp wristed peter puffer!
MrLincolnWolfe 1 year ago
These guys are the most overrated players in NHL history.. The only reason they were so great was because the no-touch rule applied to both of them. Nobody could play the body on them because anytime someone tried to hit them it was an immediate call. That's why you can find so many clips of them scoring without people even trying to stop them. Same thing goes for Lemieux's little gimp Crosby.
razorslice17 1 year ago
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@razorslice17 You've obviously never watched Lemieux play. Watch some games of Lemieux, not just his highlights and tell me the no touch rule applied to him. You can look on youtube here and watch a game where he plays the Rangers and takes a tomahawk chop to the throat or numerous plays where he's constantly being slashed or guys hanging on his back. I'll agree with you that Gretzky was protected but that was after a few years.
blrohm 1 year ago
@razorslice17 You're going to have to go back and actually watch film of Lemieux playing and then make that comment. Lemieux was constantly being sticked, slashed, tripped, punched, hung onto and he still did what he did, he didn't get the protection Gretzky did because of his size. Not whining or complaining about it, just saying it's a fact he was man-handled with and without the puck his entire career.
blrohm 1 year ago
@razorslice17 Are you kidding? A no touch rule for Lemieux? That man was beaten and abused on the ice more than any player in the history of the game.
hockeyplayer168 1 year ago 16
@hockeyplayer168 Well, less than Richard but you're right xD
L0uisRp 6 months ago
They were bankrupt. Selling G was their solution. The Penguins solution worked for them: it doesn't mean it would have worked in Edmonton . What are you suggesting the reason for G being traded is? b/c his 92 goals was not enough? Simply it was business. Recchi had 50/40 goal seasons with Phily, Murphy was an all-star regardless of Lemieux, Francis was a star in Hartford for years, Jagr was a superstar long after Lemieux left- all independant greatness. Fringe hockey fans know #99 many less #66
woodss3 1 year ago
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Hi Youtubies,
schaut euch mal Stefan B: 1. Pucky puckmann 2. eierpunsch 3. (S) Ex - Politesse 4. Geile jugend 5. Rama Samba 6. Die Besten
( Synthimix ) 7. Dreier Song 8. Spass auf der Party 9. Love Balloon 10. Deutscher House.... an alles echt geil
vincenz1111 1 year ago
I love both players equally. They were so GREAT!!! Makes me a proud Canadian.
Looking forward to seeing Mario strap on the skates one more time around the New Year.
LaFoxySam 1 year ago
@LaFoxySam wait a minute, is mario suppose to play or something because this is new news to me.
android17ak47 1 year ago
dude sounds like Don McLean lol
nethoser 1 year ago
66+99= the best hockey magic ever just like the 1987 Canada Cup!!!
2059Canada 1 year ago
у нас таких Best Of The Best пруд пруди:)RUSSIAN HOCKEY The Best Of The Best!!!
yugoslav25 1 year ago
@yugoslav25 Ага, особенно "игрочеллы" какого-нибудь Витязя.
Muxej 1 year ago
BOTH AMAZING PLAYERS....AND I MEAN AMAZING. Just wished that the refs didnt give gretzky special treatment in the 1993 playoffs.
itsshowtime5 1 year ago
@itsshowtime5 all superstars get treated differently including Mario......
woodss3 1 year ago
Rob Dougan Right ON!!!!!!!!!!!
StaalRulz2010 1 year ago
Gordie Howe couldn't touch Mario... Sure the fucking guy played til he was 53 or 55 whatever, but no one had the skill that Mario had; and I am talking across ALL sports, soccer, baseball, bball, ... To do what Mario did, save a team 2 times + from bankruptcy, have cancer, play half the season and win the Art Ross, any idiot could have worked on an assembly line in the 50's and 60's... Howe couldn't keep up with Drew Doughty nowadays as with HALF OF THOSE DRUNKS!!! Sorry but it's TRUE LGP!!
StaalRulz2010 1 year ago
@StaalRulz2010 I dont see what the reason is to disrespect Gordie Howe, but I do agree that Mario is the best to ever set foot on ice
itsshowtime5 1 year ago
Comment removed
StaalRulz2010 1 year ago
Feels like everyone is forgeting about Gordie Howe
ason5 1 year ago
There is no better.. But they are the best.. statistically. But can't keep wondering what Ovechkin could have done in the 80's.. :D
88Freefall 1 year ago
@88Freefall I dunno, maybe shit his diapers? How old would he have been? Sheesh
leekadams 1 year ago
@leekadams OK
88Freefall 1 year ago
@88Freefall It is a very common misconception that players nowadays are that much BETTER than players from the 80s, 50s etc. They ARE much better trained and conditioned, and generally more skilled in that they spend much more time in the gym, and in training and playing. But if Gretzky played today HE TOO would be much better conditioned, trained etc. Same with Gordie Howe. Yes, if you magically dropped Ovechkin into a 1950s game he would set records, but I wonder if he could lift the sticks?
ptolemyauletesXII 1 year ago
Im from Edmonton, and love the Oilers, but Lemieux was twice the player Wayne ever was.
wirelessdave1 1 year ago
@wirelessdave1 disagree
TheAceofNate 1 year ago
@wirelessdave1 lemieux was the best to set foot on ice....BUT ONLY BY A SLIGHT MARGIN. I love the pens and lemieux but to say that anyone was twice the player of the great one is just nuts...
itsshowtime5 1 year ago
gretzky and lemieux are the 2 best player the played hockey gretzky 1.92 pts per game and lemieux 1.88 ...but lemieux never played in a team like gretzky does in the 80 just imagine what emieux coud have done whit kurri coffey messier and many other from the oilers franchise he to whould have break a of of record.
but they are simply the 2 best player
hulkisgreen666 1 year ago
@hulkisgreen666 You're totally wrong :) It's not Kurri and Coffey and so on who made Gretzky the Great, it's Gretzky who made them great.
Btw, Lemieux played with Jagr, Francis, Stevens, Kovalev.
Muxej 1 year ago
@Muxej really?How many titles did Gretzky win when he left Edmonton...ZERO,NADA,ZILCH,and Lemieux didn't get any of those guys until the second half of his career,the man overcame CANCER,numerous back surgeries(he needed the trainer to help tie and untie his skates and when he retired(the first time)Paul Coffey was asked in a interview who was the best player you played with Coffey said and i quote"i've played with the best and bar none,Lemieux was the most talented!"
tjgorman66 1 year ago
@tjgorman66 He absolutely attained league records while in LA, and Lemieux had an amazing supporting cast also. The greatest hockey men in the game voted G as the greatest player in history. He was voted athlete of the DECADE by the US-centric sports mag. Sport Illustrated. Nobody comes close to #99 in the NHL or in international competion. Lemieux was GREAT but history will always remember the best as the true "Great One"
woodss3 1 year ago
@woodss3 Mario Lemieux played the first half of his career(oh by the way if #99 was SO GREAT,why did he end up playing for 4 teams??)with Rob Brown,Bob Errey and Warren Young on his line-hardly Kurri,Anderson and Messier and yet when you look at their PPG average(Gretzky-1.92,Lemieux-1.89)is virtually a push,Gretzky was the greatest to play because of insanse career stats but pure god given talent NOBODY COMES CLOSE TO #66
tjgorman66 1 year ago
@tjgorman66 You seem to forget Stevens, Jagr, Francis playing with Lemieux? Many of these players were accomplised without #66. The 'white elephant' standing in the middle of the room, which has been missed, is that "insane career stats" are a reflection of the most prolific player in history. The numbers represent the talent and accomplishments in very similar time periods. None of the hockey greats Bowman, Cherry, Neil ect. have rated Lemieux above Orr let alone Gretzky.
woodss3 1 year ago
@tjgorman66 many of the players who no longer played with G dropped in numbers. Many of the players who played with Lemieux were independantly great. Gretz was traded b/c of financial reasons Pocklington was going backrupt (Oil) McNall went backrupt (LA). Gretz did not get on with Hall (SL). Kids in my class room know who Gretzky is even they were 3 yrs old when he retired....sadly, many don't know who Lemeiux is. Only the greatest are truly remembered I guess.
woodss3 1 year ago
@woodss3 once again your arugment merits no water,the penguins declared bankruptcy twice yet never,ever would consider trading Lemieux,tell when did Stevens,Jagr,Recchi,Francis,Murphy,Barasso win something when #66 wasn't there?NEVER,EVER,EVER,and in 1988/89,Mario led the league in goals,assists,pts,power play goals and short-handed goals while scoring 5 goals(even strength,power play,short-handed,penalty shot and empty net,all in one game?something noone has done since
tjgorman66 1 year ago
@tjgorman66 Look at Messier, Kurri stats when Oilers arrived at NHL. Their stats were not really great. Look at their stats after Gretzky left Edmonton. Also poor.
4 teams? Because every team wants the greatest player in its squad. In football, Ronaldo also played for many teams.
Muxej 1 year ago
@tjgorman66 He won much less than in Edmonton, but c'mon, Kings were a total rubbish before he arrived. He didn't win Stanley with them, but he made something much bigger for the NHL - great popularity and raise of total team count.
And... who cares about cancer and so on? Btw, Gretzky also had serious back injury in LA.
He's the greatest by fact, not by some potential like "if I were a superman, I would be the greatest".
Muxej 1 year ago
@Muxej did you actually write"who cares about cancer?"Lemieux received radiation for chemotherapy and later that day scored a goal and an assist in Philly and they gave him a standing ovation,look it's clear your nose is buried in #99's ass,his accomplishments are off the chart,but ask yourself this,it's not what they did,it's what they overcame."he's the greatest by opinion"loser,some would say Bobby Orr is the greatest as well,tell me where that"the greatest"is engraved in stone"
tjgorman66 1 year ago
@tjgorman66 1. The only loser here is you. 2. Probably, it's your nose in someones ass. 3. My point is that player can become great not because he overcame some disease, but by fact. No one argues, that Lemieux was great and maybe the most talented, but in sports nobody will make an excuse because of some illness or injury. If a player is the greatest, he' so by facts, not potential.
Muxej 1 year ago
@Muxej you are completely totally true. G made people great everywhere he went. Players that were traded away from Gretzky lost their touch.
woodss3 1 year ago
Legends!
Zoury 1 year ago
In the end, it simply bothers me that Lemieux highlight videos are filled with amazing plays, but Gretzky highlight videos are filled with boring record breaking plays and empty nets.
I'm not saying Gretzky wasn't great, but let's at least see some examples of it...
hockeyplayer168 1 year ago
@hockeyplayer168
I understand what you mean. The fact is Lemieux didn't break records so his highlights are visually appealing plays, that's logic. Gretzky has a lot of nice goals but what defines his career are records and milestones, and these goals are not necessarily pretty, for example 500th and 50-in-39 are empty netters.
But the most amazing aspect of Gretzky is the numbers he got, imagine a player winning the scoring race by 70 pts, 6 years in a row... A highlight video can't show that.
Irato99 1 year ago
@hockeyplayer168
Now that I think about it, go watch 'Gretzky baseball goal' to see an amazing play by the Great One, it beats any Lemieux goals in my book, spectacular...
Irato99 1 year ago
@hockeyplayer168 yes mario was smooth, slick, turned guys inside out and was phenominal to watch, but gretzky made it look easy. watch wanyne's highlits and goals he doesn't overpower you, suck you right in or look flashy while doing so, he just gets it done.
znogypogy 1 year ago
Apparently SOME Lemieux fans hate Gretzky and SOME Gretzky fans hate Lemieux, which is stupid cus Gretzky and Lemieux themselves are the best of friends, Lemieux wore 66 as a tribute to Wayne's 99, calls him the greatest player ever and credits him with turning him from a superstar to a megastar, Gretzky once said Lemieux could have broken any of his records. Gretzky has 61 records so he was greater, but had Lemieux been heathy, that number would be a lot smaller. I was a huge fan of both.
gymguy25 1 year ago 23
@gymguy25 I also consider myself so lucky to had the chance to grow up with those two legend! I'm 34 now, and I was right in it when Lemieux got to the NHL. I'm from Montreal, just like Mario, but I remember having a slight preference for the Great One. I guess because he was there first, IDK...but man, what a show they gave me all my youth!
cello3 11 months ago
Comparing Lemieux to Gretzky is like comparing Van Gogh to Rembrandt. Two epic artists on a plane of their own. And you can't look away when they're painting. They are the two best of all-time, and for as good as Crosby and Ovechkin are, I don't see them matching these two. At least not yet.
MrLCLM 1 year ago
But an even bigger stunner! In the 92-93 season, Lemieux is diagnosed with cancer and enters treatment. He misses 2 full months, and despite playing only 60 games and re-enterring play behind 12 points in the scoring race to Pat LaFontaine with 1 month to go, he finishes the season with a 2.67 PPG average, scoring 160 points,12 points ahead of LaFontaine. Remarkably, he scores a goal and assist in his first game back, despite having had his final cancer treatment that afternoon. Stunning!
AllIsAshesAnyway 1 year ago
@AllIsAshesAnyway 5 goals, 5 ways....only one man has done it.
AllIsAshesAnyway 1 year ago
@AllIsAshesAnyway
Five goals in a game has been done 59 times by 43 players, nothing to be excited about.
And don't give me that 5 ways crap, it's just a coincidence, and considering that 3 of these 5 goals had been scored on real easy situations (5on3, penalty shot, empty net), that is a real joke. Give me 5 goals scored on even strength and I'll be impressed.
Irato99 1 year ago
@AllIsAshesAnyway
That's a great accomplishment, but not greater than Gretzky's. In 83-84, Gretzky had already won the scoring race after 41 games, he scored his 50th goal the next game, which is absolutely stunning, but nobody remembers that because he did it in 39 games two years earlier.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 What about this magic? On a radio program, Pittsburgh sports host Mark Madden pledges to donate $6600 dollars to Mario's cancer charity for children if Mario can score a goal direclty from a puck drop on a faceoff. That same night, Mario does it against the Sabres. Scoring at will. Outrageous!
AllIsAshesAnyway 1 year ago
@AllIsAshesAnyway
Nice. It's funny you say 'scoring at will' since it was his only goal of the game and it came after 53 min of play, is that scoring at will?
But how can it be more magical when the world witnessed the Great One scoring 5 goals against B. Clarke and the Flyers on December 31st '81. That dramatic 5th goal in an empty net broke the 50 in 50 record by an astonishing 11 games.
And what about the playoff shorthanded overtime winner against Calgary in the Battle of Alberta, epic.
Irato99 1 year ago
Can you imagine if the NHL participated in the Olympics while these two were in their prime? That would have meant four more golds for Canada!!!!
juzu4me 1 year ago
Gretzky's supporting cast (for much of his career, including his most productive years): Messier, Coffey, Kurri, Anderson, Tikkanen, Mactavish, Robitaille, Sandstrom, Granato, Blake. Lemieux's supporting cast for the first half of his career: Young, Shedden, Rob Brown, Bodger, Mantha, Quinn, Simpson, Zalapaski. End of argument.
AllIsAshesAnyway 1 year ago
@AllIsAshesAnyway
Wow, you are so selective, why do you compare the full career of Gretzky against only half of Mario's? I mean Gretzky only played with Robitaille until his 10th season, at this time Lemieux had played with Jagr, Francis, Recchi, Trottier, Mullen, Coffey, Murphy.
You also deliberately forget two 50 goal scorers who played with Mario in the beginning.
And please, MacTavish? Tikkanen? He only played 2 and a half year with 99 in Edmonton, in which 99 was injured half a season.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 OK, I was a little selective....but Mario (1st edition) only played parts of 13 seasons. So for him to have his first 5 seasons with that unsavory cast of characters versus Gretzky ,who spent the majority of his entire career surrounded by Hall of Famers, I feel is a valid argument. but how do you compare two amazing players like this anyway? It's like trying to say who is better, Crosby or that Russian guy...what's his name? You know, the one who never wins anything?
AllIsAshesAnyway 1 year ago
@AllIsAshesAnyway
I think you're over-estimating the impact of other players in the team, if you compare them it gives a God-like status to Gretzky.
An example, in 81-82, Glenn Anderson, a HoFamer, has his best season ever with 105 pts. He is that year the 2nd best Oiler, behind Gretzky, obviously, who has 107 more pts than him... How can you explain that Gretzky doubles the best production of a HoFamer, it's insane, even if he was surrounded by great players, he dominated them outrageously.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 Yeah, but to me, a more impressive feat than doubling the production of an already-established HOFer like Anderson is when Lemieux takes a total and complete scrub, a career minor leaguer and hands-of-stone guy like Warren Young and gives him 40 goals, or gives another scrub like Rob Brown 49 goals and 115 points. Anderson was already a great player....but these are guys who were nothing before Lemieux and nothing forever afterward.
AllIsAshesAnyway 1 year ago
@AllIsAshesAnyway
No I don't think what Mario did was more impressive.
To call Anderson an already-established HOFer when in '81 he was 21 with only a 53 pts season under his belt, that exaggerating a lot.
Does Rob Brown still hold the points and assists records of the WHL to this day? Yeah, what a scrub.
Giving Warren Young 40 goals isn't more impressive than giving Blair MacDonald 46, or Bernie Nicholls 70.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 To be clearer, by "already-established", I meant that Anderson was already a great player in his own right and while Rob Brown was a great minor-leaguer, his career in the NHL was not much to speak of when he wasn't playing with Mario. And Bernie Nicholls? Come on, man...Nicholls was a perennial 30-40 goal scorer for 5 seasons before Gretzky arrived in LA and MacDonald also had 3 consecutive 30 plus goal seasons before his 46 with Gretzky.
AllIsAshesAnyway 1 year ago
@AllIsAshesAnyway
Just find me a season where Mario doubled the production of the best season of a Hall of Famer he played with, because Gretzky did everything Mario did, even better and faster.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 What of these feats, though? 1989-1990 season. Mark Recchi, 1st ballot HOFer by even the most stringent standards, in 74 games had 30 goals and 37 assists for 67 points. Lemieux that year had 45 goals and 78 assists for a total of 123 points IN ONLY 59 GAMES! Or, perhaps this stunner: 1991-1992 season. Ron Francis, one of the game's greatest, in 70 games had 21 goals and 33 assists for 54 points. Lemieux that year had 44 goals and 87 assists for 131 points IN ONLY 64 GAMES! Grapefruit?
AllIsAshesAnyway 1 year ago
@AllIsAshesAnyway
Nice, but I could probably give you 100 examples like that for Gretzky. The seasons you gave for Recchi and Francis are far from their greatest.
Irato99 1 year ago
@AllIsAshesAnyway
Want a real stunner, in 83-84, Gretzky had the longest pts streak in history scoring in 51 consecutive gms from the beginning of the season, he had an out-of-this-world 61 g and 92 a for 153 pts. When the streak stopped, he missed 2 weeks because he was playing injured. If he didn't come back he still would have won the scoring race by a fair margin, he would also lead the league in goals and assists. But he came back, won the scoring race by 79 and the goals lead by 31.
Irato99 1 year ago
get off the drugs
jaymo151 1 year ago
The only hockey player better than these two was Bobby Orr.
MullyFilm 1 year ago
elessar1313 1 year ago
@elessar1313 why would u want konstantinov? he sucks. what about bourque, oates, or paul coffey?
Slipknot5301 1 year ago
@Slipknot5301
Because his sheer intimidation factor. He always made huge hits and frequent hits. He may not have scored the most goals, but taking hit after hit wears on players. Besides, you wouldn't need him to score a lot of goals with the rest of the line up
elessar1313 1 year ago
@elessar1313 true
Slipknot5301 1 year ago
What's the name of the song that starts at 1:54?
MrLCLM 1 year ago
ah my beloved Penguins
Oftenezeefachezee 1 year ago
To my view, the best playmakers are the best hockey players. Assists often mean much more than goals. As a long time coach and player, I know that is true. I'd take a good assist man over a shooter any day. That said, the best assist men of all time were (assists per game, career stat):
1) Wayne Gretzky
2) Mario Lemieux
3) Bobby Orr
4) Peter Forsberg
5) Sidney Crosby
That's my dream-team.
kcfoamie 1 year ago
@kcfoamie
your missing a defencemen
REF126 1 year ago
@kcfoamie Well then you're missing Adam Oates and Ronny Francis. Never seen better playmakers than them (maybe lemieux and gretz)
SonnyA89 1 year ago
offensive stats are one of many attributes to being a great hockey player, Wayne, Mario and Orr all possessed lethal offensive talent, Defensively Wayne and Mario are both write offs, and Orr was tough he could probably kick both there asses at the same time. Within 8 healthy seasons he won 2 cups a scoring title,MVP, 8 Norris trophies a Canada cup and MVP on a bad knee and revolutionized the game more than any other player in history
MrDaemonB 1 year ago
@MrDaemonB
Longevity is also an important attribute when defining a great hockey player, an athlete must be able to perform everyday over a long period of time. In that regard, both Orr and Lemieux fail, none of them is in the top 250 of games played, while Gretz is 15th with 1457 games, add 208 in the playoffs and 57 representing his country in international play. He had 8 seasons out of 20 where he didn't miss a game, and only twice he missed more than 10. Another reason 99 is the greatest.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 Gretzky never got hurt because his physical game was zero. Did you ever see him throw a check, ever? how bout forechecking? any checking.
MrDaemonB 1 year ago
@MrDaemonB
Come on, hockey is a physical game, especially when you're a target everyday. Gretzky fore-checked every time, but he rarely used body-check because he was brilliant enough to know that, with his size, it wouldn't help himself.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 Don't get me wrong I admire Gretzky Ive seen him play live and his passing and anticipation of the game are unparalleled The greatest offensive talent the game has ever seen. As for being the greatest player of all time, I disagree. Bobby Orr was much that Gretzky was, but also a whole lot more. Gretzky was very seldom targeted for obvious reasons,Semenko Mcsorley etc. Orr stood on his own and dished it out, he blocked shots,took beatings,cheap shots, all the things Gretzky never did
MrDaemonB 1 year ago
@MrDaemonB
I admire Orr but I don't see why taking beatings and cheap shots makes you a greater player, Gretzky avoided that by being wiser than everybody else. And don't bring the Semenko/McSorley myth, every team had an enforcer. Denis Potvin once said he wanted to hit him so bad, but he just couldn't catch him, that's the real reason.
And finally, whatever are the reasons, a player who can't skate anymore at 30 cannot seriously be called the greatest of all time.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 Very good points. No one could hit Gretzky because he was always 3 steps ahead. He saw everything and could anticipate so much. Just an amazing brain really, he probably would have been great at anything.
NightBlazer37 1 year ago
i have his jofa helmet
9898ma 1 year ago
3) mario tore up the league even when he came out of retirement. look at the stats of the whole Oilers team in the 80s... atleast 5 players on the team had outstanding statistics that are unheard of today. (meaning the league has changed drastically)
slaphappy18 1 year ago
@slaphappy18
Ok.
1st year : Gretzky - 137 pts, 2nd is Blair MacDonald (?) - 94 pts
2nd year : Gretzky - 164 pts, 2nd is Jari Kurri - 75 pts
3rd year : Gretzky - 212 pts, 2nd is Glen Anderson - 105 pts
4th year : Gretzky - 196 pts, 2nd is Mark Messier - 106 pts
Except for Gretzky, I don't see any outstanding statistics by any teammate...
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 @Irato99 my point was, compared to statistics you see today, those stats are good. if anyone even breaks 100 in todays league, thats considered very good. meaning 1. that either the league changed, or 2. that everyone got worse and sucks.. they were in their primes during different eras, therefore you can't rely on stats alone to determine who was better
slaphappy18 1 year ago
@slaphappy18
I understand the league has changed, but Gretzky's teammates stats are not outstanding in that time. The four years I mentioned, Gretzky finished 1st in scoring, but MacDonald was 10th, Kurri wasn't even in the top 20, Anderson was 11th and Messier was 7th.
But, whatever the era, when a player gets 100 more pts than his best teammate, honestly.
And even in the late 90s at the end of his career and far from his prime, Gretzky was great, he finished 4th at 36 and 3rd at 37.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 1) mario's stats didnt start getting worse till he came back from retirement. enough said there... gretzky started slowing down almost right after he went to the kings
2) mario wasnt in his prime yet till the early 90's, which is when the league started changing.. gretzky was in his prime throughout the 80's
slaphappy18 1 year ago
@slaphappy18
You mean it took at least 6 years for Lemieux to get to his prime while Gretzky was in his prime during a whole decade, now I understand why Gretzky is the best.
Irato99 1 year ago
Comment removed
slaphappy18 1 year ago
@slaphappy18
Did you realize that Mario's stats progressively got worse too, maybe you don't realize that it's tougher with age and most players have to retire before 40. And why did it take 3 years for Mario to get a 50 goals season, it was in the 80s against really bad goalies. Gretzky got to 92 goals on his third season...
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 Lemeiux got hodgkin's and had a spinal disc herniation so bad he couldn't even tie his own skates. Thats why his stats got worse
peirce3412 1 year ago
@peirce3412
That's not really true. When Mario came back from Hodgkin cancer, he scored at the highest rate of his career, winning the scoring title in the process, it didn't affect him, it only made him miss 24 games.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 and imagine if he didnt have the cancer.. how much better he wouldve done
slaphappy18 1 year ago
@slaphappy18
How do you explain he was worse when he didn't have cancer (about 19 years of his career)?
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 19 years? he didnt even play 19 years, he played 17 in his whole career. and he announced that he had the cancer in 1993. and he had back surgery in 1990. and a broken wrist the following year. i could keep going. how many injuries did gretzky have?
slaphappy18 1 year ago
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@Irato99 1) mario's stats didnt start getting worse till he came back from retirement. enough said there... gretzky started slowing down almost right after he went to the kings
2) mario wasnt in his prime yet till the early 90's, which is when the league started changing.. gretzky was in his prime throughout the 80's
slaphappy18 1 year ago
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@Irato99 3) mario tore up the league even when he came out of retirement. look at the stats of the whole Oilers team in the 80s... atleast 5 players on the team had outstanding statistics that are unheard of today. (meaning the league has changed drastically)
slaphappy18 1 year ago
Mario has a whole city behind him to this day....
radishrose 1 year ago
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Just for the Record as a Manitoban I'm against the NHL coming back here because our wages are the lowest in the land and makes it impossible to afford to bring your whole family to a game
ManitobaMooseJets 1 year ago
We aren`t talking about who play more games, and scored more. If u think in that way, Messier is better than Lemieux too , and if appear a guy that play 2000 - 3000 games, and score 1000 goals, will be better than Gretzky for u? Not for me. Lemieux did the best goal score % of all times, thats what matter for me.
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
@HeavyMetaI
According to your logic, a player who plays a single game and scores two goals is the greatest goal scorer in the history.
loyunsang is right, longevity is a factor, and the ability to compete at a high level each and every night for a long period of time.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 Here comes Irato and ur nonsenses... i compare the career, not 1 or 10 games. A career = around 20 years. Around 20 years i think is enough to see who`s better. Lets see if the "2 goals in 1 game" guy, keeps the % in the whole carrer.
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
@HeavyMetaI
Well, Mario played the equivalent of 11 years, so that confirms what I already thought, Mario didn't have a career so you can't compare his stats with a player who played around 18 seasons.
Irato99 1 year ago
Comment removed
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
@Irato99 He dont have a "11 years" career. U just dont have argument, just take some of my words, and say a shit between it. He played enough to show his potential. The only guy that i think had the same potential to score like lemieux is Bossy. But he did in "easy mode". And Lemieux have so much more talent. Anyway, i like more Jagr than Lemieux, but i know that he isn`t the best.
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
They're both remarkable players, but at the end of the day I have to give the edge to Gretzky. Longevity is a factor in any contact sport. I think what makes Gretzky a better player than Lemieux is simply that he lasted longer. Don't get me wrong, Lemieux is very talented and tough. But in the end, his body just wouldn't allow him to surpass Gretzky in his greatness. That's just a fact. Every thing else is all IFs and speculations.
loyunsang 1 year ago
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Just to complement. Whos contradicting is u. U Say "You judge a player for was he does on the ice", "doenst matter if Lemieux was injured,, and with Cancer" . And u said that Gretzky didnt scored a lot because was old. U said the health doenst matter, just for Gretzky. Doenst matter if Lemieux got old too, the rules of health is just for Gretzky. U are just a retard that never shut up, always want back to say the last words.
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
@HeavyMetaI
When the hell did I say Gretzky didn't scored a lot because was old? You're so pissed of at lacking arguments that you're losing your mind...
Irato99 1 year ago
Fuck the age of Gretzky. Lemieux was injured, Cancer, older, hitted by a Truck, hitted by a Airplane, hitted by a train in the same day, and scored.
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
i think Gretzky isn`t the best. CAUSE if u see the technique of the goalies in Gretzky time...my god, they sucks!!! Today is so much more hard to score. So, Lemieux is better. Gretzky is just a good player
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
@HeavyMetaI
The goalies in Gretzky time were pretty much the same in Lemieux time. They debuted in the NHL only 5 years apart.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99
I'm pretty sure 1995-96 and 1996-97 were the first years of "goalie domination" where there was a good goalie who had a GAA with less than 2.5 on majority of the teams in the league and the scores of games were getting low with a lot of clutching in grabbing goalies like Hasek, Brodeur, Roy, and Joseph weren't at the height of their ability until Lemieux's era. Lemieux had 69 goals and 161 point in 70 games in 95-96 destroying everyone else and won the scoring title with a bad back
mothercanuckers 1 year ago
@Irato99
Lemieux missed 20 games because of CANCER and came back to win the scoring title in 1992-93 and won the scoring title in 1996 and 1997 retired then came back in 2001 and got 76 points only playing half the season. Even Bobby Orr said it himself Lemieux was the most talented player he'd ever seen. Gretzky was not a physical player Lemieux was and he was also a better skater as well. To say that Gretzky is better than Lemieux at everything is underrating Mario Lemieux by quite a margin
mothercanuckers 1 year ago
@mothercanuckers
It's true that Mario was more talented and had a great physical advantage over Gretzky, that's why it's obvious that Gretzky is the best, he did more with less.
Who cares if Mario won the scoring race missing 24 games in 1992-93, Gretzky won scoring races at the half of the season in his prime.
When you say Mario destroyed everyone else in 95-96, you should maybe consider that he won the scoring race with only a 12 pts lead and all his line was in the top 4.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99
Maybe you should consider Gretzky had 6 or 7 HOF players on his team for most of his record breaking career compared to Lemieux where only about 4 of the guys he ever played with are going to end up in the hall and 1 played on his line the other is a defenseman, Larry Murphy, who played alongside him for 3 seasons.
I'd like to see you live through cancer never mind coming back after chemotherapy and winning the scoring title. Who cares? That's the legend of Mario Lemieux
mothercanuckers 1 year ago
@mothercanuckers
You are completely wrong about the HoF players, Mario played with 5 HoF members plus two others who will be in near future, that's 7 players.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99
I think its clear to me that you don't respect Mario Lemieux and what he has accomplish you look at a stat sheet and think it tells you everything HELL NO your saying Lemieux shouldn't even be in the discussion for greatest hockey player ever and that to me is very disrespectful for all that Mario Lemieux has done its an insult that you think this way because he was a far better player than you give him credit for and its a damn shame that you don't see his greatness.
mothercanuckers 1 year ago
@mothercanuckers
I don't disrespect Mario, I just say that Gretzky is way better, that's all. But why should I respect a player who refused to wear the Penguins sweater at the draft ceremony.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99
Lemieux has been put through a lot of crap in his career and you shun him for that. "Who cares if Mario won the scoring race missing 24 games in 1992-93" anyone who knows anything about life and hockey knows that isn't all that happened completely ignoring he had cancer and completely ignoring the fact he had missed those many games because of chemotherapy its a joke to humanity that you think the way you do. 95-96 96-97 the guy couldn't even tie up his own skates his back was so bad.
mothercanuckers 1 year ago
@Irato99 Just see the results in 89 -90 + seasons ( when the goalies started to be decent ) goals per game. Gretzky have 500 gameplay more than Lemieux (its more than half of Lemieux gp) and have just around 200 goals more. Lemieux scored 690 in 917 games. So if u see the goals per game...
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
@HeavyMetaI
Gretzky was the fastest to score 400, 500, 600, 700 and 800 goals. He scored his 700th on game no.886, 31 games less than Mario to get 690 goals, so I don't think there's an argument here. You just don't seem to realize that players slow down at the end of their career, it happened to both players.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 The fact is, he scored more in the "goalies suck" time, AND doesnt matter if he scored more first, he scored in a easy time. Mario got old too, so the players slow down doenst matter. And Mario got 5 seasons more playing against decent goalies, and did better goals per game % than Gretzky. Gretzky is a player like Ovechkin and Crosby. Just got a easy season time.
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
@HeavyMetaI
So tell me, when exactly is the "goalies suck" time Mr Know-it-all ?
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 just look the video that Greztky did the 50 score, WTF IS THAT GOALIE? what kind of defence he do? stand up defence? any hard slapshot score on it ... Lemieux scored 85 GOALS in the 1989 season, in 74 games. Gretzky have 547 gp more than Lemieux and scored just 200 goals more. Gretzky played 6 seasons in the easy era, when Lemieux started. 6 SEASONS 465 games, Lemieux played more with normal goalies, and did better. ACCEPT IT
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
@HeavyMetaI
First it's 76 games, not 74. Then you think Lemieux played only against "normal goalies" (that statement is so ridicule, come on), watch Lemieux 5 goals 5 different ways and tell me Terreri and Sauvé were better goalies than Pete Peeters (in case you don't know, the goalie who gave up goals 46-49 in the game Gretz got 50 in 39, and a Vezina winner).
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 U just keep saying shits. U dont have argument, always say a nonsense shit to try to save Gretzky. I just gonna say that, with easy goalies or not, Mario did a score % of 0,76 goals per game and Gretzky 0,60. Im not saying Gretzky isnt good. He played good, but Mario did better.
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
@HeavyMetaI
It's funny you say I don't have arguments but you can't even answer my questions. It's funny too you come up with probably the only statistic favoring Mario over Gretzky, what about the points, assists, records, cups, scoring titles, MVPs, etc... And still, at the same amount of games played, Gretzky avg of goals per game is always higher.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99
That is stupid its not a fact its opinion Gretzky isn't way better than Lemieux hell you have a lot of arguing to do if you say he's better at all. This shows to me that you know very little about hockey all you know is a stat sheet and you don't even think Lemieux was a better goal scorer than Gretzky when a guy points out to you that Lemieux's goal average is far better than Gretzky's like that's not even funny you come out here and say a lot of crap you know very little about hockey
mothercanuckers 1 year ago
@mothercanuckers
I don't mind arguing at all, I know I'm right. But if you tell me Mario's better because he was injured a lot and he had cancer, it's nonsense. You judge a player for was he does on the ice, healthy or not, and Gretzky did more than Lemieux. I don't just look at the stats, but when they are miles away from everybody else...
And, by the way, I was playing hockey before you were born, I saw Gretzky with the Oilers and Mario with Laval so I know what I'm talking about.
Irato99 1 year ago
@Irato99 "You judge a player for was he does on the ice". Hes Human. Offcourse cancer and injuries influence, it decrease the emotional. And with all it, he did better, imagine now with full health...He was able to do 1000 goals easy, and much more. U are just a Gretzky fan that never gonna reconize it, always will back to say shits.
HeavyMetaI 1 year ago
@HeavyMetaI
You say he was able to score 1000 goals easy, but he did NOT, that's the point I'm trying to say. If you judge a player like that, it's you that say shit. Gretzky was better because he accomplished more, was more valuable to his team, reached milestones no other reached, was healthier and ready to play and give 100%.
Irato99 1 year ago