Socialized Medicine, 2 of 3

[lanilani06]

I recommend the actual health care system as I experienced in Canada, even though I was a foreigner there. I bet British is very similar to the Canadian. My supervisor had a triple bypass in his late sixties, did not have to wait for it as the American (One should say, USA-ian) propaganda keeps saying, and did not pay for it out of pocket.

[wrdeboise]

Believe you me, I don't like the idea of socialized medicine any better then you. However, I don't think Obama's proposed system will be quite the totality of what Canada has. That said, I'm still apposed to increasing the size of the government even the 25% that's in the current legislation. Unfortunately, once a giant welfare-state of this proportion is institutionalized there's no going back.

[Meibukan]

Not only is this factually inaccurate, but it's also immoral.

Firstly: as a resident of Canada I can say our healthcare system works just fine. We have no crisis--unlike the US. My family has been served for years by the Canadian system. Wait times are minimal, results are excellent.

Secondly, in a civilized and moral society, people care about one another. That is basic human decency. You're supposed to give a shit about other people. Socialized healthcare is part of this.

[BlackProteus]

meibukan,

Very well said. Thank you.

[BlackProteus]

Where's the evidence that Canada's health care is crumbling or has failed? One man's story?

I have a family full of people who have been served by Canadian health care for years, with minimal wait times and good outcomes. We are working class, and I can count about 6 major surgeries in the last two decades -- any of which could have bankrupted us in a US system. Canada's system is working just fine.

[MrCropper]

"Canada's system is working just fine."

Stay in Canada. America needs people who love freedom. You seem to just want someone to take care of you. Stay in Canada.

[BlackProteus]

I consider poverty to be a horrible lack of freedom. Going bankrupt to have basic surgery is no sort of freedom.

I do expect society to take care of me in certain ways, just as I don't begrudge the fact that my productive work helps others who are weaker than me: for example, pensioners, the disabled, children. That's called being human -- caring for each other, caring for the weak. This extends to politics and society.

[redduckinpond]

And I know many people who were utterly failed by the Canadian healthcare system...

[BlackProteus]

Perhaps, but you don't know any Canadians who were bankrupted because they got sick. That's because it never happens here. Whereas in the US getting sick is the number one cause of personal bankruptcy. The brutal and compassionless US system has utterly failed those people.

[redduckinpond]

True,

But I know several who died... plus a few close calls. My mom had to wait 3 F'king months to be told that her mammography is positive?!

When death from a perfectly curable condition is looming, bankruptcy is not such a big of a deal...

What we need in Canada right now is:

Allow private healthcare

Implement a voucher system.

[BlackProteus]

I disagree. The right-wingers are manufacturing a problem with health care, so that people like you will demand private care -- which will not help at all. Read the history of Canada pre-medicare. The biggest opponents have always been doctors and the rich, those who make money off your illness.

What we need to do is to get a party in who believe in public health care, and who will enforce the improvement of it. We need to get out of Afghanistan and spend that wasted money on our hospitals.

[redduckinpond]

Surely you are daydreaming... the Canadian healthcare system is a big clog of wasted money... In Ontario about 60% of the provincial income tax + additional health premiums go to fund the healthcare which is a big flop of failure... The victims I know are people who would have been able to afford private car if it was available to them, but cannot afford treatment in another country.

[redduckinpond]

cont:

The money spent on Afghanistan, which is like a 5,000 men operation... doesn't come CLOSE to what's being wasted on healthcare.

Canada has barely any security expenses... they are very very small... The reason why the Canadian healthcare is bad... is simple: government mismanagement.

Nobody is trying to manufacture a problem... the problem is there. Don't believe me? Go and see for yourself

[BlackProteus]

Citizens are receiving world-class care. That's not a waste.

"Go and see for yourself" assumes I haven't. You don't know me at all. I've received more health care than most, and it's all been good.

Those who want to jump the queue would sell-out their fellow Canadians. I am in favour of a law making it so that all MPs, including the PM, are forced to queue up in the emergency room just like anyone else, and receive only public care. That way we'll see improvements fast.

[redduckinpond]

I lived in 3 countries: Israel, UK and Canada... Canada was the worst by far in terms of healthcare, Israel the best. I also heard a similar example from Greeks. Notice I am talking about Greece and Israel, not Sweden and Norway.

As Paul Martin whether he waits in line. When my dermatologist tells me that the only opening he has is in 3 months when something on my foot turns walking into hell... I doubt your claims of world class care.

[BlackProteus]

I've never waited 3 months to see a specialist, and I've seen plenty. Do you live in Inuktitut, perchance? In fact, I needed an appointment with my main specialist on Monday, and just booked an appointment for Thursday. What Canada do you live in?

Also, your other examples aren't necessarily saying anything. I'm sure there's better care to be bought for exorbitant fees in, say, Switzerland. But what I am talking about is the care of the average citizen. In that sense, Canada ranks near the top.

[redduckinpond]

I live in Toronto...

I am talking about what's available/affordable for the average citizen. If you compare all the measurable statistics of things like doctor patient ratios, waiting times etc... Canada ranks near the bottom of the industrial world though it spends a lot more on it. Funnily enough Canada ranked much higher at virtually all those categories during the early seventies (before it was socialized). That's bad before evenconsidering the braindrain of doctors...

[BlackProteus]

Show me the report that says Canada's medical care is "near the bottom". Seriously, produce this report.

Before socialized health care, the rich had great care, true. The poor went bankrupt and made choices between food, rent or an operation, so it sucked for them. That's the truth of it.

[fd3boost]

The problem with healthcare is the government has created coercive monopolies and barred any real free market competition such as state to state health insurance.

They admit that medicare and medicaid are broken and they are the ones running those programs yet you want to blame a "right winger"

Read a book.

[BlackProteus]

fd3boost -

I've read more than a few books, but thanks for the demand that I read another unnamed one.

You seem to be talking about the US, which is not my country. We have different right-wingers here. You'd probably call our right-wingers "centralists". Soviet Canuckistan and all that.

In Canada, no one goes bankrupt due to poor health; in the US, it's a leading reasons for bankrupt cases.

You can believe it's a corpse-strewn hell-scape here, if that makes you happy, but it's bullshit.

[DollarHack]

A monopoly is when a company has exclusive control of a commodity or service in a particular market, or a control that makes possible the manipulation of prices.

How can a government be a monopoly? Can't you see the difference between production and force? Ask yourself what competition in forcible restraint would have to mean.

Law courts are a part of government, anarchism is a lack of government. There is no such thing as anarchic courts.

[DollarHack]

Read Chapter 14, "The Nature of Government", The Virtue of Selfishness, by Ayn Rand

[DollarHack]

RussellsParadox:Cropperb does not advocate anarchy, he advocates capitalism, i.e. the complete separation of state and economics.

In complete anarchy all property is public, and the biggest biceps win, the ruling principle is no different than todays social welfare state or mixed economy, force.

In a free market all property is privately owned, and there are law courts.

[RussellsParadox]

Wrong. You're thinking of a collectivistic form of anarchy, of which there are many. In an anarcho-capitalist society, all property is privately owned... and there are law courts... by a different name.

And perhaps you're forgetting: the ruling principle in REALITY is force. If you have the muscle and the will, you'll get it done, state or no state. It's an unfortunate fact.

[dudev]

I don't always agree with you, Mr Cropper, but you post interesting topics. And you're a good speaker. I'll happily subscribe to your new channel.

[RussellsParadox]

"That's why I'm against anarchy: because then you couldn't have courts to protect your rights like that."

WRONG.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG.

You'd have dozens, competing to rip the snake-oil salesmen a new one, much more swiftly and no less justly than a monopolistic system.

Government courts thrive on banning competition; Anarchic courts would thrive on REPUTATION.

[Elhan2005]

Excellent!

[horvay]

So person A tells Bob's Police Force that person B stole from him. Person B tells Joes Police Force that person A stole from him. They both have convincing evidence. Now remember, these Police Forces have their reputation on the line!

There has to be principles that guides judgments in the form of a constitution. If more than one organization up holds the law, gang warfare will be the necessary conclusion.

[RussellsParadox]

The reputation a Dispute Resolution Organization would have to protect is not the reputation of one who simply caters to its clients in any manner it pleases - no honest person would fund such an organization. I don't know about you, but my DRO would have objective guidelines by which to determine guilt or innocence, and cooperation clauses that define its relationships to other DRO'S.

...and what you folks don't seem to realize is, the government is just a gang with a constitution. :D

[horvay]

Thats great that you are like that. So am I. But what about half the socialist country? What about a police force that holds up "good traditional values"?

All it takes is someone who will say "too hell with principle, I'm gonna rule this place". Don't think anyone will fund him? How do you think Mobs come about?

[RussellsParadox]

Half of us can kill the other half, if it comes down to that.

Mobs come about when there's a monopolistic agency which is in charge of preventing them from coming about, and is thus vulnerable to corruption. People in government say, basically, "don't worry, I'll take care of it," prevent OTHER people from taking care of it, and proceed to take bribes, sit on their asses and NOT take care of it. :D

[MrCropper]

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