Does a Lack of Islamic Literacy Fuel Extremism? - Ebrahim Moosa

[oudmontage]

Blah blah blah... what is so ethical about "beat your wife?"

[Experiment47]

Education: Curing religion since the 1600s'.

[yeshuahfullofit]

Religion is dying. Every time you get a chance, kick a little dirt into it's grave. Thanks!

[Xwowplaya]

It is not an illiteracy in Islam that fuel extremism, it is a belief in something that does not exist is the fundamental problem with religion. People are more worried about HOW to translate a religious text instead of asking WHY do we still believe these bronze age dogma's? I do believe some people inherently need the guided direction that a religion can induce; but with education and critical thinking I hope we can help these people overcome this obstacle.

[Plissken07]

Maybe not. Take a look at America and Western Christianity. Many Western Christians do NOT know and understand Orthodox Christianity despite claiming that they are or go to a church that is Orthodox. For example, many Christians still believe that resurrection is some disembodiment of the "soul" from the physical body and that you die and go to heaven (if you are justified in both faith and works). Orthodox Christianity DOES NOT teach this. Resurrection is life, after life after death.

[ananiasacts]

@Plissken07, We have a single word for "is life, after life after death." It's reincarnation. Is it your position that Orthodox Christianity preaches reincarnation?

Also, if the soul is never disembodied, that what exactly is returned via reincarnation? I found your comment very difficult to understand. But it sounded interesting. I hope you'll try to explain it to me.

[Medifro]

I'm a Saudi, and this guy is awesome.

[Mastikator]

Heh, he just called Islamists stupid.

Hehehehe Islamists are stupid.

[ndyt]

Knowledge kills religion, ignorance fertilizes religion. All you need to know on this subject. This why christians home school.

[ananiasacts]

@ndyt, But even if we assume that we do not live in any god's vivarium, the concept of "god" certainly does exist. Furthermore, if we agree there is no real god, then it must be the concept itself that we find so deeply inspiring, empowering, and soothing to posses. Which suggests to me that simply discarding it is not as wise an alternative as actually studying the meme scientifically to understand how it works, and maybe leaving us more able to use it productively. Making religion a science.

[ndyt]

@ananiasacts, Daniel Dennett has spent a great deal of effort studying religion scientifically. Have you read his books or watched his lectures? I agree with his conclusion: religion is mental virus, a parasite that we would be better off without.

The Evolution of Confusion

watch?v=D_9w8JougLQ

[ananiasacts]

@ndyt, Yes, I'm a big fan of Dennett, love the term "deepity," that he defines in that video, too. But I don't believe he would deny my claims; simply point out that it ultimately is equivalent to "being without it" because it genuinely does remove the very sanctity of religion. Or at least morphing that from a respect for a genuine creator, to respect for the power of that idea. Also, consider the economic impact of leaving every religious practitioner not just unemployed, but unemployable.

[ndyt]

@ananiasacts@ananiasacts, these religious workers would have to re-train for more productive lives, it is like the creative-destruction of capitalism. They would not be unemployable they could teach religion as literature. Computers put typists out of work, are you saying we should not have invented computers? Refrigerators put the lake-ice industry out of business, should we have not invented refrigerators? It could take place over a few years, but religion needs to go, the sooner the better

[ananiasacts]

@ndyt, I wish I'd had room to qualify that with "in their chosen profession." I think we only disagree about how best to be rid of religion--as we know it. It seems to me that we should look for ways to make the transition as painless and thorough as we can. This approach seems to allow each sect to independently morph into its own most effective antidote. By teaching people the art of critical thinking by showing them how to use the scientific method to reveal the real utility of their faith.

[ndyt]

@ananiasacts, you seem to have respect for religion, I don't. Oh, I respect its power the same way I would respect a dirty cop. He has power over me but he is evil and must be stopped.

[ananiasacts]

@ndyt, I dislike it as much as you. There's a lot of real evidence to that effect in my comments prior to the last few months. I do sincerely believe that religion is the only known placebo that needs a lengthy warning label. But certainly, if we'd like to see it evaporate, we're more likely to see that happen the more slippery we can make the slope leading away from it. Finding paths that preserve any genuine utility, like community cohesiveness, and the integrity of practitioners seems okay.

[Tait011]

@ndyt

What a fine statement, another example to back up your statement is to look at the Phelps family, they fence their young in and dont allow them to mix, at all...

and what are the Phelps most famous for, i wonder!

Peace.

[SomethingSea1]

@ndyt Homeschool Vs School? Might as well say Dem Vs Rep.

[Wrath0fKhan]

This is very, very weird talk...

[Medifro]

@Wrath0fKhan If you're a none-Muslim ( or have an interest in the theology ), I think you woudn't have much to understand,

[Wrath0fKhan]

@Medifro

Why wouldnt I have much to understand? Even better; how does understanding "come together"?

[Medifro]

@Wrath0fKhan I didnt mean it in an offensive way. This video is describing a mindset in the Muslim world in mid east that is not well known to other cultures in the world ( including many Muslims in the west).

In a nutshell: Islam is a religion with a philosophical part (Aqeedah) and a ethical one (Sharia). Currently the Muslim world is focusing only on the Sharia. There's no philosophy, not beauty, not art, and without that to guide the Sharia, its natural to see Muslims going in circles in it

[Wrath0fKhan]

@Medifro

I did not understand/perceive your response as "offensive" in any way. I asked you two related questions to clarify your position, so I could gain more understanding.

As I understand it, "Aqida" can be considered a branch of studies, an attempted explanation/justification of a believe system and or faith - in this case the Islamic faith.

Both, Aqida and Sharia, are practically two sides of "one coin". One teaches how Muslims know what is true, the other teaches how they should live.

[Medifro]

@Wrath0fKhan You got it right. This is THE problem here in Saudi and all Arab countries. Islamic philosophy is extremely deep, but how can we understand it if the generations arent into philiosophy and aesthetics in first place?

They're living with rules, they restrict themselves for it, THEN they force others to do the same and expect them to comply since this is Islam ( a set rules to be followed),disagree and ur a bad Muslim!

Good thing ppl are becoming aware,at least Saudi youth.

[Wrath0fKhan]

@Medifro

Well, if "they" are becoming aware, then there is hope. However, Im on the side of the "Salaf", at least when it comes to the "true teachings", and, I dont see there much room for philosophical speculations. As you say, there are those rules, which I would call self-justifying rules and if you disagree, "you" are a bad Muslim. From a "true" (e.g. Salafi) Islamic perspective, I cant give "you" any advice how to "break" those (rules). You simply need a new open-minded generation...

[Medifro]

@Wrath0fKhan

I dont call myself titles.The way I look at "Salaf" (i.e past scholars ) is this: I study their interpretation, a logical step since I AM interested in their viewpoint (especially Ibn Taymeyyah, whom I consider a genius). Its the same as studying any subject, you see what the others did and thought, and come with conclusions.I dont take them as curved on stone. Today this is done by elders because of insecurity,but thats another topic.

Most of educated Saudi youth are open minded.

[Wrath0fKhan]

@Medifro

I dont remember to call you any titles. Neither do I remember you calling yourself any tittles. I dont understand the term "Salaf" (e.g.) as past "scholars", but as the first three generations of Muslims. Ibn Taymiyyah was a 13/14th century scholar, hence certainly not a member of that group (by definition). As Ive already said, there are certain rules, which can be easily derived from the "Traditions", that are self-justifying and in principle non-negotiable.

[Wrath0fKhan]

@Medifro

Abandoning the "Revelation", the "Ways of the Prophet", hence some if not all of those self-justifying rules too, is supposed to bring insecurity. Therefore I see "their" position as justified.

I know about some educated Saudi "underground dissent" but that certainly aint nothing official. As well, until now we havent spotted much "official" movement down there. In any case, I can only wish them good luck. If they want to catch the "21st century train", they have plenty of work to do.

[Medifro]

@Wrath0fKhan No one said anything about abandoning the Revelation and Ways of the Prophet, its about understanding them better, since Islam was back then about Aqida and Sharia.

There IS a dissent (of which I dont care for personally), though its not underground. Newspapers are full of articles as well as TV interviews of people discussing secularism and other things. I don't see how its supposed to be official or not since its an intellectual, not a political movement.

[Wrath0fKhan]

@Medifro

There is nothing to understand "better". The rules are clear, simple and powerful. "Aqida" used to be rather "shallow" and closely intertwined with "Sharia". This changed with the course of time, hundreds and hundreds of years after the time of the Sahabah. As it developed into more elaborate forms (e.g. Kalam) and deviated from the original traditions, the call to return to those (traditions) became stronger. One could say in our times this call culminates in the Salafi movement.

[scientist071]

@Wrath0fKhan

On your video: "We can never be friend with unbelievers" ,you asked me that "do i remember khidar's story" but it seems that you didn't had any guts to withstand the reply which was obviously coming.I can see that,besides bocking me,you also discarded the comment,in response to your rubbish,made by another person present there.

I am almost sure that you have blocked him,too,since you can only respond with crap but become dumb whenever you encounter a rational argument.

[Wrath0fKhan]

@Medifro

People are getting slain for sorcery in Saudi Arabia. The Arab "Free Thinker Movement" practically operates "underground".

Right! Its the intellectuals who bring progress, not the politicians. Those only can help to implement some conditions that will allow the "Thinkers" to flourish...

[greenhell666]

yeah, look at america's lack of literacy and the christian fundamentalists

[rubberbaby00]

I dunno, is the problem really that Islam is misinterpreted? Doesn't that imply there is a peaceful religion there to be found? Aren't all monotheistic religions authoritarian by nature?

[noahpictures]

Here is the dirty secret that hasn't been addressed. The Koran is in Arabic only (only in the west translations have been included alongside the Arabic text). Most Muslims are non-Arab and they learn to read Koran in Arabic but they don't know the meaning of the text. They only learn to pronounce the words. The meaning of the "important" verses is learned through hearsay (relatives, mullahs). I am not aware of this issue being addressed anywhere. This is a huge problem.

[acr08807]

@noahpictures The Saudi's speak Arabic and live under Sharia, and they have serious problems with basic human freedoms, barbaric punishments for crime, equal rights for women and minorities, and support for terrorism. Muslims need to rejoin the 21st Century, not return to the traditions of the 14th Century.

[mykmmc]

SO TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shalek]

Shouldn't Allah have forseen that his followers would turn out to be a bunch of idiots?

[kakamana1000]

@Shalek

Perhaps that is part of the joke :p

[DeletedDelusion]

Interesting video.

[frankroto]

The problem with Sharia is that it presumes that Islam has some legitimate claim to serve as a source of rules to govern people's behavior. It doesn't. Islam is a religion, and like all religions, it's bollocks. People should make up their own laws, as indeed they do in most places.

[swinewarrior]

1-800-KORAN hey man where can you get a brain

[dewinthemorning]

"A meaningful, model project of some sort"? He didn't give any example of what that can be. Anything will be better than cutting off hands, beheading and stoning.

[Zzaztur]

So if you read and follow the laws proscribed by the two most important books in the faith, you cannot understand it. Therefore you need a holy man/guru to tell you what it means. Do the Imams who issue the fatwas not understand Islam?

[1RadicalOne]

Why does this seem the equivalent of the apologists trying to write off the extremists as not true [insert religion] I see so often?

[EntinludeX]

@1RadicalOne Because you can't spell FANATIC without FAN. In the end even "moderate" theists are compelled to believe so long as it's their relgion doing the extremism, then is just "a few nuts". Remember, these are the same battered housewives who forgive their deity for LIFETIMES of SUFFERING and DEATH ITSELF.

[1RadicalOne]

@EntinludeX

True.

[KasparHauser4]

Al Takiya! He is sweet talking the kufar

[dewinthemorning]

@KasparHauser4 Al Takiya! You can lie if that will forward the case for Islam. Well noticed.

[agentsback]

@KasparHauser4 I like how you muslims fight among urselves and dream of world domination.

[ananiasacts]

His argument seems misguided. The fact that islam CAN be misinterpreted is the problem. It is only becoming intolerable now because technology empowers individuals and small groups to do such great damage. I think religion itself is facing a choice; either it can reinvent itself as the science of god (a genuine study of how the CONCEPT of god is used to inspire, motivate, and help us become more wonderful individuals.) Or it can face increasing resentment from ever more secular societies.

[oclandestin]

@ananiasacts ... That's somewhat naive. Any ideology or even just a perceived 'fact' or 'truth' can be "misinterpreted" or interpreted in many different ways. Look how politicians or the media can present various 'facts' to mean different things. Even science can present 'facts' that can lead to many different moral judgments and outcomes. It's not just religion.

[MiraginXXX]

@oclandestin .. Ignore the ignorant ..

[ananiasacts]

@MiraginXXX, If everyone enlightened ignores the ignorant how will they ever learn?

[oclandestin]

@ananiasacts ... How witty. I was thinking the same : P

[keggerous]

@ananiasacts hopefully natural selection . . . learn or die.

[acr08807]

@MiraginXXX Did you say something?

[MiraginXXX]

@acr08807 .. Lol .. yeah but it fell on deaf ears ! ..

[ananiasacts]

@oclandestin, But nothing besides religion claims sanctity or is as difficult to scrutinize because of that. It is possible that all of the things people attribute to god are actually the work of just the concept of god. By not studying the concept we may be missing opportunities to deploy it more wisely. I think religion could become exactly what its proponents want it to be--personally & socially nutritious guidance--if we could demonstrate the power of the concept of god itself to enrich us.

[oclandestin]

@ananiasacts ... Again, aspects of science, or any other set of perceived truths, will often claim a level of 'sanctity' or are just as difficult to scrutinize. The rest of your comment, I'm afraid, sounds like New Age mumbo jumbo, and I'm sorry if that offends... and also sorry I don't have the time to discuss further. But best wishes : )

[2JOHNNYT]

No the US, England, and Israel fuel and fund Islamic extremism - wake up 911 inside job

[CarbonSuit]

@2JOHNNYT LOL

[iamterrentia]

No, illiteracy does not fuel extremism.

Islamism is a political ideology that wants to see the return of the theocratic rule of the caliph.

[EntinludeX]

What? Mytholgoical supernaturalism survies because of illiteracy? SHOCKER.

[oclandestin]

@EntinludeX ... That's not what he meant by 'literacy'... he's saying that a lack of understanding of Islamic knowledge could fuel extremism... ie. those without a deep knowledge of Islam could take verses or teachings out of context and apply them in an extreme way.

[EntinludeX]

@oclandestin I know what is meant. However the point remains, that the proper context for "Islamic knowledge", like all other theistic knowlege, is that of MYTHOLOGY. A failure to understand that teaching mythology as anythign else but myth, in ANY context will lead to extremism. Again: SHOCKER.

[oclandestin]

@EntinludeX ... Yeah, we won't agree on that because I'm a Muslim, but best wishes anyway.

[EntinludeX]

@oclandestin "We"?? Speak for yourself, myth-slave. YOU won't agree because YOU are muslim and YOU can't sort MYTHOLOGY from REALITY. Have fun in la-la land slaving away for your celestial dictator from your book of mythological nonsense. ^_^" *eats a pork sammich while wathcing porn* FREEDOM!

[oclandestin]

@EntinludeX ... Maybe if you calmed down you wouldn't get so confused. "We", ie you and I, will not agree. Nothing to get excited about. Interesting you talk about religious people being 'fanatics', yet the only person verbally jumping up and down and hurling intolerance is yourself. Ironic.

[EntinludeX]

@oclandestin I am calm. I already told you, it is not that WE cannot come to an understanding. It is that YOU will not come to an understanding.

I am not hurling undue intolerance. Absurd dehumanizing myths should NOT be tolerated. I am simply recognizing the truth, which YOU will not understand.I already understand that THEOLOGY is simply MYTHOLOGY in practice. Evidently you do not, because YOU are Muslim, not I.

[tashikiloo2]

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. ~MLK Jr.

[Aaberg123]

It's easier to fool the ignorant than the knowledgeable.

[Zzaztur]

@Aaberg123 Depends on what you're ingorant or knowledgeable about, don't you agree?

[Aaberg123]

@Zzaztur

By looking at your favourite videos, I'd say yeah.

[Atheistprimate]

Yes