Col 1:15 Firstborn=Birth order or BIRTHRIGHT? (1)

[Jordo713]

Might have spoke too soon on that as you said other cultures...and I also feel the same way on Translations, just from the several bibles I have in my house I can open them to any page and find differences and a great number of those can change the meaning completely! Not to mention the books that were left out. Who made that decision? Its all just to convaluted for me. Ever done the experiment where a group of people sends a message down the line whispering? Not too reliable...

[Jordo713]

@Julesandthefatman-Keep it up cuz I am in the same boat as you. I have come from being Christian to Atheist to Believer since I started my journey into Religion. Study it all don't stop with just the Judiac(Christian, Jewish and Muslim) you will see how they all come together and might even prefer another. And those people judging you prob haven't even read the bible let alone actually studied it. Someone indoctrinating you is not the same...

[julsandthefatman]

Just as a JW told me. first she said God protects the word of God and yet the church managed to add among other translations including hers. She got upset with me. Why? I don't know. I tolf her I was sorry for pointing out a part of truth that would offend her. She has not talked to me since. Same with christians that have shunned me. I hope you are not like them. I would rather know the truth then have friends that live by lies. Just my oppinion.

[TheSnarkyApologist]

@julsandthefatman I completely understand what your saying. Do you believe that Jesus is created as most cult groups hold to or would you say you hold to the mainstream orthodox position that Jesus is God?

[julsandthefatman]

@TheSnarkyApologist I have not decided yet. I do know that he is my savior, He is everything. I have prayed about this and I think God understands while search the word of God. Jesus said John 3:16. This is what matters. He said to learn the scriptures. He had to learn the torah. I am doing the same. I am letting the words show me, not a person or people. Not to be rude but I check everything. everything. lol I drive my mom crazy. She didn't know there was so much to the book. lol

[julsandthefatman]

I find it interesting that you ask me that instead of questioning why the Cathlic church added Comma Johanna. It is as if you think I made this up or something. When I first heard of the church adding text, I was upset at them. I didn't think to question others who knew about this. Where is the outrage of this? People do not value the text as much as they claim to value it. The last part is my opinion because people shrug their shoulders when I point this out to them.

[julsandthefatman]

Why do you keep saying that I am judging or disapproving the books. I am stating what I have learned from all different groups. And from history from different cultures. I use many translations. The best way I have found is to use a majority rules method. lol. Take 10 translations, if 5 say the same thing then that is probably the answer. I hope I don't have to do this if I learn enough hebrew. All I know is that most translations are wrong in some way. That is not judging, it's fact.

[julsandthefatman]

I am not talking about the NWT because you all are doing a great job of throwing stones. I don't need to. lol But I do have to point out the flaws in your translatiopns to. Don't get me wrong. The Scolfield bibles are just as guilty. I personally will not just take one translation over the other. That is why I am learning ancient Hebrew. Just because the NWT is worse then yours does not make your right. God said do not be fooled so I am tring not to be. lol

[TheSnarkyApologist]

@julsandthefatman Which Bibles have met with your approval? Would you say they all are in error?

[julsandthefatman]

I can prove that the KJV and other translations mistranslate and add text. Check out the Comma Johanneum debate. frankliy I don't see it as a debate. God said do not change our add the the word. This is FLAT OUT adding. Can't get any clearer then that. Even if it was by mistake. Once you know it has been added, You personnaly need to stop teaching it. This is your soul on the line. Some do not care but I do. 

[TheSnarkyApologist]

@julsandthefatman I don't believe there is any translation out there that has more "added" words than the New World Translation! It's the worst at adding and taking away from the word of God for sure!

[julsandthefatman]

this is a huge mistranslation in my eyes.

Deut. 31:26

Modern translation

"The book of the Law......is a witness againest you"

Hebrew translation

"The book of teachings.....is a witness WITH you"

[julsandthefatman]

We need to be true to the Hebrew text. Most translations are not. Example: Gen. 17:1 modern translation " I am the Almighty God" hebrew translation " I am the mighty one of Shaddai" another example: Gen. 15:6 modern translation " and he believed in the Lord" hebrew translation " and he supported Yahweh" . There are mistranslations thru out. Very differnt meanings.

[TheSnarkyApologist]

@julsandthefatman Which translations specifically are you judging as incorrect?

[julsandthefatman]

@TheSnarkyApologist I am not judging. The teaching of ancient hebrew text says one thing and the KJV says anotherAll translations are based off of the KJV except for a few. The jewish rabbis know this. And the Jewish scholers. I am not saying it, they are.

[julsandthefatman]

I think I know were you are getting this idea that birthorder does not coexist with birth right. During the Roman Empire, Roman law, which governed much of Europe, made no real distinction between the oldest or youngest, male or female when it came to the law of inheritance. The Roman Catholic church was under this Roman law. not Hebrew law. We must concider Hebrew law as we read the OT.

[julsandthefatman]

funny thing is, I have yet to have anyone say "Why are they killing each other over the holy land?" seems to me that would be the first question I would ask so I did. When I found out, it changed my whole view on Christianity.

[julsandthefatman]

This is the law of inharetence. you can not change it. Were are you getting your info that they can appoint a birthright? The only time they can appoint a birthright is when the firstborn does something to defile the father and still the father can not ban the firstborn of all inheretence. do you know why the Arabs and jews are still killing each other to this day?. I will explain it. most say they do cuz they let their ego get in the way. It has to do with firstborn subject.

[julsandthefatman]

Firstborn was and is always birthorder thus having a birth right. This why the quran states that Ishmial is the prophet, not Isacc. Ishmiel was the first born of Abraham. With this birth order comes a birthright. Concluding that Ishmial should inherete the holy land. This is a huge debate that still rages today. That is why the Arabs hate the jews. Surely you must know this. Jews do not take birthorder and birthright lightly. We can not take it lightly either.

[manillas2]

The fact that Jesus is ALSO firstborn in the figurative sense(most excellent) DOES NOT put him outside of the group of creation. He is still firstBORN ,or else if he was not born he could not have any BIRTHright.God is not firstBORN.God the Father is the Creator. Jesus as the SON is created. Trinity is wrong,says all parts equal, coexisting eternally

Even if you use 'over all creation' instead 'of all creation' nothing changes Jesus is still firstBORN,he has the BIRTHright,belonging to creation

[manillas2]

TRULY, firstborn has both meanings in the Bible

1)The most excellent that may take the birthright even if not first,the one bringing salvation through redemption , the man of the covenant

2)the son(not daughter) that is born first, the firstfruit,the one who 'opens womb' and has originally the birthright

In Col 1:15-20 Jesus is 'firstborn' in every sense. He is the most excellent of all creation(verses 18,19,20) and he is also the firstborn in order(verses 15,16,17)

Let me explain Continue

[TheSnarkyApologist]

@MelvinVines Here's the point I believe you misunderstood, or I did not clarify. The word "firstborn" falls under the definition of birth order, OR birth right as we can plainly see evidenced in the video. Luke uses the term 'firstborn" of Mary's birth to Jesus, and appropriately so. Yet Paul in Col 1:15 is showing the "supremacy" aspects of the firstborn. Remember, Paul was trained under Gamaliel and was a "Jew of Jews", as such he clearly understood the rights and deeper meaning of "firstborn"

[TheSnarkyApologist]

@TheSnarkyApologist Understand, in the OT culture of the day, the local deities demanded the first,born,fruits,harvest, etc to appease them and garner for the group protection and sustenance. As you may know, God required the firstborn of Egypt. After that, He instituted a program where the firstborn male could be "redeemed" back by a lamb. This firstborn became a representative figure of redemption for the group. David was the firstborn King because he represented redemption for the nation,

[TheSnarkyApologist]

@TheSnarkyApologist YET, David was the LAST born of Jesse, right?

Israel was God's "firstborn" = Ex 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my "firstborn" son.'

Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews".

Israel was the redeemer/firstborn nation.

David was the redeemer/firstborn King..

Jesus is the redeemer/firstborn King of Kings.

Understanding the OT turns up the light in the NT.

Let me encourage you to study up on this important concept. Much is available.Hope this helps

[julsandthefatman]

@TheSnarkyApologist The "Law of inheratence" states there is no "OR". The firstborn male is automaticly the birthright. unless he defiles his father, then the father has the right to spread the inheratence among the other children and the firstborn. I need you to tell me were you are getting this information that birthright stands alone, without birthorder. This is not found in the ancient hebrew culture that I can find.

[TheSnarkyApologist]

@julsandthefatman Yes....it was thought that the first created son had more of the fathers strength, etc....BUT he was not always chosen to receive the rights of the firstborn. Watch the video's first that will help much. Off to dinner.

[October31st1517]

Verse 16 tells us why Jesus is God's firstborn. "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." It means that creation originates with Christ ans has nothing to do with being born. So this passage actually says the exact opposite of what the witnesses teach. Jesus is the creator NOT the created. Another great Job brother Bill.

[TheSnarkyApologist]

@October31st1517 Thanks much super bro!

[barbsinclair]

@TheSnarkyApologist

Brother, your comments at video end are amazing in light of Heb9.

Yes God works through covenants (testaments), and covenants are only given by and through "God". Therefore God alone is the "testator" and only the "testator" can make a greater more perfect covenant (testament). Heb9:14-17 = Jesus Christ IS God "the testator" of the New Covenant:

Isa49:8-10 "I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people" = Ex4:22-23 = "Holy One of Israel" in Jacobs loins.